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 General License Test Discussion
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Santiago22 1st Lieutenant Posts: 111 |
posted 04-25-2003 03:50 AM
  
All this talk of license tests got me thinking... I think the level of difficulty on the GT3 license tests isn't right... I just feel like the S License is way harder than any challenge anyone will ever see in Simulation Mode, and that anyone with an IA license probably has the skill/talent/whatever to complete the game... even at the advanced levels the AI isn't that difficult... I hope this is an issue they resolve in GT4... the hardest license should be about equal to the hardest part of Sim Mode... IMHO ------------------ [i]"You always think it's impossible, until you do it yourself." - me :) IP: Logged |
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Dango Officer of the Bridge Posts: 1733 |
posted 04-25-2003 04:16 AM
quote: Valid points. Generally the licenses always have been subject to a lot of discussions whether they make sense at all, what sense it makes to get gold, what sense it makes for people that just want to play GT3 like they play any other game. Even if you do not achieve gold in all license tests you`ll eventually be at a skill level to easily outdrive the AI. Sometimes it will be necessary to understand how the AI conducts it`s business but I don't believe there are too many serious racers that still have trouble with that. Now to your quote that I put in italics. Getting gold in the S-License tests isn't easy and I know of noone who did it on their first attempt. Imho they aren't even very well suited to make a better driver out of you - they may help doing just that but mostly they show people what a real fast driver can do (well, someone must have recorded them, just as the Time Trials) and thus serve as a benchmark for a fast lap. Being at the level to get all golds in the S-License tests one should assume that one has acquired considerable skill. But - and here it comes - that someone would probably end up participating in an OLR event and ending up somewhere as an also ran. Which isn't meant to be negative, arrogant or sarcastic, but what it means is that OLR takes the game to a level where racers quickly realize that the S-License tests aren't even remotely as challenging as they may have thought. In other words, you can achieve gold in S8 by having that one lucky run, but in OLR luck won't help you at all (well, maybe just a little IP: Logged |
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VB Officer of the Bridge Posts: 514 |
posted 04-25-2003 05:59 AM
quote: That'll be me. Eternal mid-packer. This is simply explained by the amount of time sent at a particular test. Run it often enough and you eventually know the track and car running on it. I think the level is quite healthy! If it were any harder to get a bronze nobody would play the game frustrated with the unable to progress factor. Sounds silly I know, but just turn it on its head for a moment… If it were harder to get gold in the game not a lot of ppl would play as hard/much for the irritation factor with no return. Not to mention the rarity of someone getting the prize car for completing all gold. They’ll also be a lot more sales of DS2’s to be had by your friendly neighbourhood games store. IP: Logged |
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Dango Officer of the Bridge Posts: 1733 |
posted 04-25-2003 07:11 AM
Just for an illustration, here's what happened when I came to this board thinking I was pretty good since I had a few golds already: 1st-- Star 15:03.127 (15:03.127) My first OLR entry, and see what happened? I got my arse handed to me! IP: Logged |
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GT3mich Officer of the Bridge Posts: 2036 |
posted 04-25-2003 07:58 AM
When I first came to this board, I had no illusions that I was even remotely fast. 10 months later with three OLR wins I'm still not very fast. Move over VB! Another mid-pack driver here. ------------------ IP: Logged |
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GB24Hours Captain Posts: 4573 |
posted 04-25-2003 10:51 AM
quote: Hey, at least you beat Ziggy and Wity. IP: Logged |
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BoatDriver 1st Lieutenant Posts: 272 |
posted 04-25-2003 11:22 AM
quote: Ditto...except I've never won an OLR event. ------------------ [This message has been edited by BoatDriver (edited 04-25-2003).] IP: Logged |
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GT3mich Officer of the Bridge Posts: 2036 |
posted 04-25-2003 11:28 AM
You need to enter more OLR events, BD. I'm in three  right now.------------------ IP: Logged |
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Dango Officer of the Bridge Posts: 1733 |
posted 04-25-2003 11:41 AM
quote:
That doesn't mean that a gold achievement should be belittled, I just don't believe that golds are very important. [This message has been edited by Dango (edited 04-25-2003).] IP: Logged |
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BoatDriver 1st Lieutenant Posts: 272 |
posted 04-25-2003 11:48 AM
You're probably right, Jim...but I barely have time to do justice to the IES, let alone mess with anything else. My summer OLR is already spoken for by the GTRC as well. Not to mention the slot car track i'm building.  ------------------ IP: Logged |
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player2 1st Lieutenant Posts: 815 |
posted 04-25-2003 03:54 PM
Hey guys, have a heart! Have you any idea how demotivating it is for us tail-enders to hear the fast pack dissing our meagre efforts like this?? VB, if you're an also-ran, what does that make us? Hey, if you didn't have the guys at my end of the grid racing here, you lot would have no-one to be better than!!! p2 IP: Logged |
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Dango Officer of the Bridge Posts: 1733 |
posted 04-25-2003 05:09 PM
quote: Ach, what did I do again...I certainly didn't mean to be dissing anyone. IP: Logged |
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player2 1st Lieutenant Posts: 815 |
posted 04-25-2003 05:34 PM
No worries Dango  Just putting another point of view! For some of us, winning an OLR is a distant dream. The best we can do is achieve some respectable stats on the 'Game Status' screen. For sure, getting a gold is not of much significance, at least to those who can easily do it. Similarly, winning an OLR is of little significance, to those who can do it. But for those of us who can get a buzz from winning a certain number of golds, but who will never win an OLR, that is a valid goal for us. p2 IP: Logged |
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Santiago22 1st Lieutenant Posts: 111 |
posted 04-25-2003 08:38 PM
quote: This is another issue I have with the license tests... The other licenses start by teaching the basics of race driving, from acceleration and braking, on to FWD cornering, then RWD cornering - you learn about the physics of race driving through B into A, then A4 and A5 teach you about steady-state cornering (probably one of the most important things to learn as a driver)... A6 teaches you about being slower in one corner to maximum the next section (something I'm still not that good at)... IB1 and 2 are introductions to wet-weather technique... IA license teaches you about high-speed cornering, maximizing your usage of the available road, how to work chicanes and the like... S license just kind of seems an afterthought, like "we need to fill more space on the disc"... I like the idea of driving full laps of the courses, and I think PD should keep license tests for GT4, but re-evaluate how they are a part of the game... I think a license focusing on pit strategy and vehicle set-up would be better suited for a final license, as these I think are by far the most complex part of the game... say by doing it like the Complex String tests in the RUF RGT, one with ASM/TCS on, the other with it off... do something like Trial Mountain with soft suspension vs firm suspension... 400m with low gearing vs high... Deep Forest front-straight & hairpin with brake balance high, low, front bias, rear bias... seems like that would be much more helpful... I appreciate your comments about OLR. I had never even thought or considered something like that until the first time I read this forum some months ago, and even then the concept still puzzled me... but I like that OLR kind of picks up where the game leaves off... but it's a lot to take in all at once, especially when it comes to car tuning... For instance, I had thought about participating in the Six-Shooter Challenge, but I've not yet found a suitable set-up for it, the Mazda RX-8 being my car of choice, and the only fast eligible car I think I have... I started with a relatively soft suspension set-up, as Trial Mountain has a lot of elevation changes and banked turns and such, and I though this was the way to go, but after only being able to run a 1:22.9 (and that only twice), I got frustrated and said "screw this, i'll just throw a crap setup on and run it 'cause this is a waste of time... so I set my spring rates both to 20 kg/mm F/R (the maximum) and set my bound, rebound and stabilizers around 7 or 8, and ran it... and my 3rd lap I ran a 1:22.2xx. Needless to say, I was a bit cheesed off at the whole thing, with an expression of "WTF?!?!" on my face. Seems like I have much to learn about car tuning... ------------------ "You always think it's impossible, until you do it yourself." - me :) IP: Logged |
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GT3mich Officer of the Bridge Posts: 2036 |
posted 04-25-2003 09:04 PM
I've learned more about tuning a car by sharing replays with other drivers in the OLR community and running in race series. You can ask Nightcrawler1 about how we changed things around after round one of GTCS. We were slow and then checked out some replays that helped us improve our times. ------------------ IP: Logged |
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Sukerkin Officer of the Bridge Posts: 718 |
posted 04-25-2003 09:50 PM
My controversial tuppence worth on this is that the Licence Tests actually teach you bad driving techniques, at least in certain instances  What I mean by this is that, if you follow the demos in your attempt to gather in that gold time, what you learn are high risk strategies for dealing with certain corners - at least that's what it seems like to me. The lines and approaches the demo drivers follow are certainly fast but they lead either to a quick time or a quick visit into the scenery For myself (and in the end that's all any of us can speak to) my driving in OLR is nothing like that I followed when I golded all the licences. I'm much more conservative and concerned with shepparding my tyres and not hitting the off-track areas or the AI rather than blitzing any given corner at maximum velocity. Also, it's true that all of us have different ways of handling the same cornering situation and, in most cases, one method is equally as valid as another. That's something the Licence Tests don't really serve to emphasise. For example, one reason why I'd love to see some replays from WG is that we're usually so closely matched in times on the track and it'd be very interesting to see how we differed in our lines around a given circuit and yet still arrive at the finish line at about the same tick of the clock I suppose what the essence of this rambling is trying to say is that I don't like the licence tests but love OLR IP: Logged |
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Nightcrawler1 1st Lieutenant Posts: 874 |
posted 04-25-2003 10:22 PM
Don't be discouraged P2. It's all relative. My ambition is to some day be as good as you are now.
[This message has been edited by Nightcrawler1 (edited 04-25-2003).] IP: Logged |
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Santiago22 1st Lieutenant Posts: 111 |
posted 04-26-2003 02:08 AM
quote: Good post, Sukie That's something I had not even thought of until you mentioned it, but it reminded me that in B8 (Skyline V-Spec II R32 @ Trial Mtn.), the way I passed it was by completely and totally altering the line through the first turn. If I remember correctly, that move saved me about 0.5s before trying it vs. after because it gave me a better setup for Turn 5 (first right-hander of the test, though I find some people call it 4), hitting the braking zone straight on instead of having to brake heading away from the corner before turning in. IP: Logged |
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Dango Officer of the Bridge Posts: 1733 |
posted 04-26-2003 02:44 AM
Santi - the Six Shooter Challenge is probably not a good entry into OLR because it is a) on a pretty difficult track, b) a 600+ HP monster without downforce that's difficult to drive to begin with c) a full tune in regards to suspension, gearing, LSD and brakes. That doesn't mean you should not participate. It means that if you consider yourself a beginner in OLR you can expect a high level of frustration with this race. Try the upcoming IES race (Miata at Apricot Hill) - no tuning, just race. On tuning - there are a couple of very good threads in the General Discussion area of the board, which you might want to read but beware, it's a lot. Lastly you can check out past events that might suit you more and see how you'd have done. There is often a lot of setup information in those threads that might be of value. IP: Logged |
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WasteGate 1st Lieutenant Posts: 341 |
posted 04-26-2003 04:05 AM
Here's my little  worth. I think the licences are useful, including the S licence. They encourage drivers to learn how to drive since many would just try to beat the game with a max-ed out Escudo and plenty of wallriding.For me, the licence tests and time trials calmed down my over-aggressiveness with the wheel and pedals, so now I'm smoother and more under control during the races too. I do still relapse into my old rock-ape behaviour from time to time. I guess the idea of the S licence is supposed to be a bit like the Superlicence in real life, something you need to get to enter F1, over and above a normal international racing licence. Only in GT3 you have to earn it, rather than the dubious FIA panel that awards Superlicences. As for tuning, the better you can drive, the better you can tune. If you can lap consistently then you're better able to feel the effects of any changes you make. But you do need to know roughly what the effects of changing stuff are. Stealing other people's setups are tweaking them to suit my style seems to work for me. GTVault.com is a good place for such skullduggery. IP: Logged |
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player2 1st Lieutenant Posts: 815 |
posted 04-26-2003 03:38 PM
Here's my pot-pourri of comments to all of the above... First, and most important, I'm going to quote Sukerkin whenever anyone asks me why I'm so slow. "It was the license tests that taught me to drive this bad!" NC, we suffer from half-empty syndrome, you and I. You see the one run in 31 where I got a good result, and you say "that p2 is better than me". I look at the other 30 and say, "Boy, me and NC1 would have a great league if it wasn't for all those fast guys!" As for license tests, come on guys! To my mind, they are sufficiently easy to present no obstacle to any but the least competent player if you don't want to do any more than pass the test. But the gold level is a stand-alone challenge that is sufficiently tough to present an obstacle to a player such as me, and consequently, provide an objective challenge which can be it's own reward. (The extra prize car is a bonus.) The S-licenses are just a way to get a human lap to measure yourself against in the absence of an i-Link community. One thing I gotta say - what were you guys doing analysing the demo runs?? Didn't you just take a run then play against your own ghost to refine it to a better run? I can hardly remember even looking at the demo runs in GT3, I just always raced against my own best effort. So I guess I have to come clean an say it was me who led me astray. I do like Santiago's suggestion to have individaul tests (training classes) for each aspect of car tweaking. That might be something that'd force me to start thinking about doing it right instead of just enjoying the game!
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Jythier Crew Member Posts: 6 |
posted 04-30-2003 12:21 AM
S Licenses bring it above just driving skills. S License tests teach you to drive a specific course. It took me forever to do the last test, but now I can drive Cote d'Azur much better than before because I had to pay attention to what I was doing. Before I just avoided the course, hated it. Now I look forward to it. Same thing with SSR11. IP: Logged |
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V-Tech Fan 1st Lieutenant Posts: 312 |
posted 05-20-2003 08:33 PM
heh, my friends made me get their S liscenses for them and i acually got a couple golds on my one friends game (test 4, 7 and 8 if i remember right). when i first came to this board i thought i was fast, but i knew there were faster people here so i came for advice, and although i'm still not the best, i have improved. i think i came here about when i was able to get the super liscence in GT2, and i still really hate the one where they put you in a viper on laguna seca. i can beat it pretty easy, but i still have that grudge from GT2. one liscense i don't think the is very right is the rally license. its about right for the rally races, but its still too easy. i remember from GT2 when the rally tests were WAY to easy compared to the other tests. i hope that GT4 is a little bit better in this area. talk to you later! [This message has been edited by V-Tech Fan (edited 05-20-2003).] IP: Logged |
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The One Crew Member Posts: 8 |
posted 05-21-2003 12:16 AM
I came here a long time ago. It was so long ago I don't even remember the name I registered with. I thought I was a die hard fan of the game until I got here. Getting all gold’s in a license test is something that I thought was cool but definitely not for me. In gt2 I never even bothered finishing the s-test. So the fact that these tests are easy for you fellas is amazing to me. Most of you here are true gamers. Your dedication to game is highly above the bar. You guys are the reason designers make games. The reason license test are easy are for lazy unapplied people like me who need to happy with the product and not feel like we just blew 50 bucks on a game we don't have a chance of enjoying. However as someone said earlier I think the AI should be more difficult according to your level of progression in the game. That way the average Joe can have a spin but the real gamers could enjoy a challenge. IP: Logged |
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Santiago22 1st Lieutenant Posts: 111 |
posted 05-21-2003 02:48 AM
quote: LOL, a little history lesson will show you I placed 4th in that OLR!!
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Dango Officer of the Bridge Posts: 1733 |
posted 05-21-2003 06:38 AM
Don't want to bust your bubble Santiago, on the contrary. It's a great result that I for one definitely did not get out of my first OLR. I ended up 2nd last or something like that. To find out where you stand in OLR you'll have to participate in some more events however, preferably in such events where everyone has the same car. So all I'm saying right now is that a little euphoria is absolutely ok at this moment but don't believe that the other guys will always let you pass that easily. IP: Logged |
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Santiago22 1st Lieutenant Posts: 111 |
posted 05-21-2003 02:46 PM
quote: No, it's okay... I was actually quite surprised that I placed 4th in SR32... I was expecting something maybe like 2/3rds of the way down the standings... It's just in hindsight, I found it very amusing that in spite of all the reasons you listed (difficult track, high hp w/ no downforce, full tuning), I nearly made the podium and only missed the overall win by about 7.5 seconds. I was *really* hopped up on caffeine yesterday, so all of my posts were overly hyperactive... Don't worry about busting my bubble... as far as I'm concerned, there isn't one to bust ------------------ IP: Logged |
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Der Alta Crew Member Posts: 9 |
posted 05-21-2003 03:52 PM
A very interesting topic here. I do have golds on the license tests, and have had my butt handed to me on a silver platter many many times. The license test are more preserverance than anything. Put a rat in a mze and he'll eventually find hte cheese. In every OLR I've ever participated I've been easily beaten. That doesn't mean I'm a bad driver, as I've got 100%. In fact, I recently took my first AI beating in a long time. I attempted to run the R390 race car in the F1 championship. Won Midfield, but went on a losing streak after that. So what happens to guys like me that are stuck in the middle? In equal cars, the AI is not a challenge, but in OLR, I am a speed bump. My choice is to race OLR and learn to improve. Now the licenses are a bit of a different tune. Last christmas, I bought GT3 for my brother in hopes that he'd pick it up and we could do some good racing. Well, he got bored trying to beat the licenses and hasn't played since the end of January. Granted he was finishing up his masters degree, but still.. In GT Concept, wasn't the license testing done slightly different? Can so of hte PAL guys weigh in on their thoughts of that style? AO IP: Logged |
) the example just shows that a couple golds in the license tests aren't really saying much about your driving at all, and can only teach you very few things. Consequently they are (imho) overrated. 
Yeah for golds! 
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