2015 VLN Race #1 Tragedy

[XHawkeye]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CBL1xgEWoAAl6Qf.jpg:large

Madre mía...

Was speaking (https://twitter.com/Frozenspeed/status/581830786745282560) to @WolfgangReip only yesterday about the GTR nose lifting scarily high at Flugplatz, today it flipped and tragedy struck :(

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/118267

Shades of LeMans '99

[Blerpa]

https://youtu.be/GXHUxCmdkYY?list=FLBI1LFKWJ5SkWqSJMpGlmyQ

[The359]

It was Jann Mardenborough in the car apparently. I hope this doesn't shake him up, he's very young to have something like this happen.

[Freude am Fahren]

Scary whenever a blow-over happens. I think Jann may have just pulled around that 911 (there's a video of him coming out of hocheichen behind said 911), which is usually, in addition to the topography, the cause of these accidents. Bad luck in this case, unlike Le Mans, Road Atlanta, etc, this one was pointed directly towards a nearby viewing area.

Also, I wonder if the spectator(s) killed/injured were where they shouldn't have been, or if they weren't simply spectators. As with most race tracks there are two fences. A catch fence, a small space where normally only photogs/marshals/team personnel should be, and then a smaller fence that denotes where spectators are allowed. There are chairs on the inside of the short fence, up against the catch fence. I don't think the car got past the gap, but maybe. Of course flying debris could also be the cause (and certainly may have injured some).

I do hope there aren't a lot of overreactions to this, other than policing/bolstering spectator areas if the above is the case, as we all know the 'Ring is already is a pretty bad place. I suppose flattening out Flugplatz would be sad, but not the worst thing in the world, if it keep fast cars racing there.

[samoht]

Terrible thing to happen, hope Jann is ok mentally and physically, I can't see that he could have done anything to stop it but it must feel awful.


I'm sure I've heard of the GTRs getting a bit nose-light at Flugplatz in the past, guess it just went a bit further this time

http://www.frozenspeed.com/gallery_event/adac24h_13/24h13_gtrwheelie.jpg

[Blerpa]

Rule #1: always stay on the inside of fast turns. Although nothing will ever be 100% safe at a racetrack. :(

[FaultyMario]

So sad.

[LHutton]

So what happened? Got caught in a wake, lost downforce?

[The359]

"Vehicles of categories SP7, SP8, SP9, SP10, SP-X and SP-Pro are now not eligible for DMSB approved events on the Nordschleife of the Nürburgring until further notice."

This bans Porsche Cup, FIA GT3, FIA GT4, and other GT ars such as the Lexus LFA and Glickenhaus SCG 003. The Nurburgring 24 is in six weeks, we'll see whether or not they find a solution between now and then.

[Phil_SS]

An easy technical solution would be to have them remove the flat bottoms. Not saying it would be easy in practice.

[Alan P]

Temporary chicane before flugplatz to slow them down?

[Freude am Fahren]

This may be a bit extreme, but these blow-overs, while spectacular and obviously dangerous for bystanders, haven't resulted in any major injuries to drivers have they? They're still pretty rare, do we really need to go to the extreme of banning fast cars to prevent them?

Also, I wonder what kind of device could be made similar to the NASCAR panels that prevent blow-overs in spins, which acts in the normal forward direction?

[The359]

The ban is only temporary until they find a solution.

The Nurburgring isnt exactly flush with cash, so altering the corner is probably difficult for them to pay for.

[FaultyMario]

Arent the shark fins high speed stabilizers?

[Rikadyn]

they are to prevent side forces, same as the NASCAR flaps, none of the GT1 and Current problems are from the side. likely change will need to be regulated on the cars themselves, most likely an end to the smooth floors first and foremost

[Godson]

temporary tire chicane would do the trick, albeit kinda cheesy.

[G'day Mate]

Rope the area off and move the spectators away?

[Rare White Ape]

they are to prevent side forces, same as the NASCAR flaps, none of the GT1 and Current problems are from the side. likely change will need to be regulated on the cars themselves, most likely an end to the smooth floors first and foremost

This issue was (apparently) because of a loss of downforce at the front. Wouldn't banning smooth floors reduce the downforce at the rear?

The car did appear to fly quite nicely because of the smooth bottom, but the solution should look at preventing the cause, rather than changing the way the horse runs once it bolts from the gate.

[Rikadyn]

Problem is as soon as the front of the car begins to come off the track, the downforce changes from being well, downforce, into becoming lift and pulling the roof of the car upward, if the rear effects are still attached they continue to create downforce further pulling the center of drag/lift backwards. Basically you can only hope for the rear downforce to quit working so that the car weight overcomes the lift created by the front splitter being raised off the track due to momentum and change of direction caused by hills/bumps.

I mean in theory you could crank so much front Df on the car the front end never rises, but it would bottom out on the smallest bump if not grind the whole way for that to work.

Best solution for preventing the cause would require resurfacing all the little hills on the ring like they did at LeMans following the Flipping CLK GTRs

[samoht]

Problem is as soon as the front of the car begins to come off the track, the downforce changes from being well, downforce, into becoming lift and pulling the roof of the car upward, if the rear effects are still attached they continue to create downforce further pulling the center of drag/lift backwards. Basically you can only hope for the rear downforce to quit working so that the car weight overcomes the lift created by the front splitter being raised off the track due to momentum and change of direction caused by hills/bumps.


Yeah, it's not the fact that cars take off that's the problem, that's normal even for road cars. The issue is the interaction of cars taking off and downforce. In particular, rear downforce is typically double front downforce, and its quite likely that front downforce is reduced as the nose lifts, whereas rear downforce is less affected. Thus as the car crests the rise, the downforce over the rear axle is twice that over the front, so the front can take off while the rear stays in contact with the tarmac. This generates the nose-high attitude, which then generates both lift, and a further nose-lifting moment. The flat floor likely exacerbates the problem once the nose is up.

So I'd say that downforce cars are incompatible with Flugplatz, at least as most cars with downforce are currently set up.

[Rare White Ape]

I see.

[LHutton]

Run more front downforce??

It's happened before.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7chVNbiSV7k

Could the issue be that the front blades are suddenly being hit by air in a non-axial direction at the crest and hence providing lift instead of downforce? The cars running less front-end downforce would be more prone to this, so maybe, heavy front-end, less downforce from blades, blades more prone to providing lift at crest?

[Freude am Fahren]

That's a pretty boss wheelie at 1:30.

[Rikadyn]

as the car crests the hill the front end becomes lighter while momentum is lifting it upwards, this upward motion cause the front plane of the car to rise, this in turn causes the front to switch from creating downforce to creating lift, combined with the decreased weight of the front of the car due to momentum it becomes enough to cause the car to rise further. Factor in the rear downforce section is still operating to push down on the back of the car, then as the front of the car lifts the center of mass as well slides towards the rear with the center, i want to say pressure, but not sure if that is the correct term here, but anyway until momentum ceases and returns the front of the car to be heavy enough to overcome lift, then the front will stay in the air. The problem is these cars are sensitive enough and fast enough that with the front creating lift, and floating the speed and rear downforce is enough to pull the car over.

it's like a balanced lever and fulcrum if you reduce the weight on one side it rises, if you remove the weight and push the fulcrum back towards the still weighted side it rises faster, but if you can reduce the weight on the other side of the rising side you minimize the effect.

You see it sometimes with drag cars, when they do wheelies, and flip over except in that case it's less about downforce, but the shear acceleration and torque in the system.

[LHutton]

Could all be sorted with active-aerodynamics....

...like that'll ever happen.

[Rikadyn]

easier to just kill the flat floors

[Rare White Ape]

Could all be sorted with active-aerodynamics....

...like that'll ever happen.

Not at the budget of a GT3 car, which I understand are designed to be universal and affordable, to allow bigger grids.

Well, affordable, when you take into account the fact they most of them are Ferraris, Porsches and Aston Martins.

[XHawkeye]

http://blog.axisofoversteer.com/2015/04/code-200-virtual-chicanes-for.html


The Deutscher Motor Sport Bund, Germany's governing body for racing was in a pickle: following the horrific crash of Jann Mardenborough's Nissan GT-R and the death of a spectator at the first VLN race of the season, it had issued a ban on all the faster classes, essentially everything from a Porsche 997 Cup on up.

That meant no Mercedes SLS, no Porsche RSR, no BMW Z4 GT3, no LFA, no Ferraris, no Audi R8, no Scuderia Gliekenhaus and, of course, no GT-Rs.

The 2015 24 hour race would have been a bust in the same year Germany failed to secure a Formula 1 race for the first time in many decades. Not good.

So here's the solution, temporary apparently, to save the race: GPS monitored speed zones in areas ahead of the fastest points on the track:

Flugplatz : 200 kmh / 125 mph

Schwedenkreuz: 200 kmh

Antoniusbuche: 200 kmh

Döttinger Höhe: 250 kmh /155 mph

[FaultyMario]

They should just rubber instead of snubbed her.

[Godson]

That is fucking dumb.

[Random]

Why not just put a chicane in the fast bits, like every other big European track?

[The359]

I can't imagine the track is wide enough for a chicane, especially it two cars go into it side by side.

[LHutton]

Maybe there should be an emergency dive button for the aero, preferably with a picture of Brian Blessed on it.

[Fogelhund]

Why not just put a chicane in the fast bits, like every other big European track?

The track seems to only own the land of the track, and very little around it. As others have alluded to, they don't own enough land to make chicanes.

Ultimately, if they change the track too much, it just stops being the Ring. Really these GT3 cars have become too quick for the circuit, and I'd prefer to see the cars change over the circuit.

Also, why is this thread titled 2016?

[LHutton]

easier to just kill the flat floors
I think that's the best solution on reflection. The danger posed by flat-bottomed racecars has been evident for a long time. Ultimately, blaming the problem on the track, or speed at a given point doesn't solve the problem, as this video clearly shows.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2e-Zad4mFb0

[Alan P]

Unusual to hear the sounds of metal rather than carbon fibre!

[XHawkeye]

Also, why is this thread titled 2016?

I had brain fart.