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overpowered
July 16th, 2015, 11:01 PM
http://www.businessinsider.com/r-gm-confirms-bolt-compact-electric-car-to-be-made-at-michigan-plant--2015-2

Kchrpm
July 17th, 2015, 07:29 AM
*sigh* Tesla-killer. Why, Business Insider, WHY?!

They're going to try and compete with the Tesla Model 3, but the S will still plug along just fine either way.

TL:DR for those that don't know, the Bolt is GM's all-electric, 200 miles per charge, $30k after rebates car. They want to get it to market as soon as possible to fill demand and beat Tesla to the punch. This article specifically is about the fact it's going to be built at an existing (and under-utilized) plant in Michigan.

The concept looks like this (more proof it won't be killing Tesla any time soon)

http://images.thecarconnection.com/lrg/chevrolet-bolt-ev-concept-2015-detroit-auto-show_100496698_l.jpg

21Kid
July 17th, 2015, 09:36 AM
not bad... But, it's not :cool: looking like Tesla. More of an electric Prius killer than anything.

The359
July 17th, 2015, 10:20 AM
Looking at it, it doesn't even look like it has as much storage space or seating as a Model S.

Kchrpm
July 17th, 2015, 11:26 AM
Depends on if the whole front area is a trunk, like with the S, and how much the rear cuts in. But yeah, I'm assuming it's Fit-sized.

Edit: Looks like there's a ton of space in the back. And again, this is just the concept, who knows how much it will change for production.

http://i1.wp.com/evobsession.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Chevy-Bolt-3.jpg

Godson
July 17th, 2015, 04:42 PM
It will still fail due to GM bean counters cutting important corners.

neanderthal
July 17th, 2015, 05:32 PM
It will still fail due to GM bean counters cutting important corners.

This.

I'm not convinced GM can execute a new car and get it 100%. There's always something where I think "if they'd tried harder *here* this whole thing would be so much nicer"


Otherwise I like it. If they can make those rear seats fold down for a flat surface they might be into something.

I'd also like to see a ICE powered one, much like Volkswagen does with their Up! A 1 liter triple and a 1.2 liter diesel.

Yw-slayer
July 17th, 2015, 06:51 PM
Yeah, it could be a good electric equivalent of the Honda Fit/Jazz if it's properly executed.

Cam
July 18th, 2015, 04:36 AM
Yeah, "Tesla killer." :rolleyes: :lol:

If it's anything like the Chevy Sonic I rented last week, it's going to be pretty lame.

Jason
July 18th, 2015, 10:23 AM
I'm really surprised roofs of electric/hybrid cars aren't used for solar panels. It won't charge a car right away or anything, but it's at least gotta help out a bit, right?

Kchrpm
July 18th, 2015, 10:35 AM
They had one on a Prius before, IIRC it only generated enough to power a small fan to vent out hot air while parked.

Edit: http://www.technologyreview.com/view/412625/the-underwhelming-solar-prius/

thesameguy
July 18th, 2015, 02:13 PM
A car-roof-sized solar panel might make 50 watts in full bright sunlight at an optimal angle - not even enough to run a headlight. And it'd weigh 20 or 30 pounds all the time. Probably not a good trade.

overpowered
July 18th, 2015, 10:59 PM
Current solar panels can produce 110-220 watts per square meter. A car roof can easily be 2-3 square meters (think Fit, not Corvette) depending upon the configuration.

That's still not really enough, but 50 watts is way low.

thesameguy
July 19th, 2015, 08:36 AM
Solar panels such are you describe would weigh a lot more than 20lbs, and nobody is going to add 100lbs+ to the roof of an electric car. Those types of ratings are also "peak sun" ratings, which is typically not going to be achievable except for a few minutes a day on a flat surface. Typically speaking, on average, the best you're going to do on a car roof is about 50w. I have done a lot of research into mobile solar for the motorhome, and even the most expensive systems ($2000-$3000) on a 400 sq ft roof is good for a reliable 250-400w, depending on what you buy. A tiny little electric car is not going to generate 600w of power ever.

Jason
July 19th, 2015, 12:45 PM
You people and your facts. :blahblah:

thesameguy
July 19th, 2015, 01:12 PM
I want solar to work a *lot* but in mobile apps it's really tough. There just isn't the equipment to make it happen quite yet. In a few years the efficiency on the printed or flexible panels will improve and then even if you can't make "real" power the cost and ease of just putting them everywhere will make it a no brainer. Right now, it just doesn't work out. :(

Jason
July 19th, 2015, 02:09 PM
I just figured it'd help charge the car faster, or give it a little extra juice while sitting in a work parking lot or whatever. Guess I was wrong :lol:

overpowered
July 19th, 2015, 02:46 PM
The panels you're looking at for a motor home have their own support structure because they are designed to be attached to a roof.

For a car that you're designing to have solar, you wouldn't do that. You would integrate the cells into the roof at manufacturing time, using the roof as the support structure. It wouldn't be 100 pounds to the car. It would probably be less than half of that.

Yes, it wouldn't be enough to run the car but it probably would be enough to get a decent amount of charge while sitting in a parking lot all day. Whether that's worth the added cost to the car is another question. I suspect that it's not at this point.

thesameguy
July 19th, 2015, 02:58 PM
Okay. If you say so. You've clearly done more research into mobile solar than I have.

Kchrpm
September 13th, 2016, 05:56 AM
EPA rated at 238 miles of range

http://www.autoblog.com/2016/09/13/chevy-bolt-ev-238-mile-range/

novicius
September 13th, 2016, 06:27 AM
:up:

Just a guess but if the prices are the same (or more) than a Model 3, people may very well choose the Tesla based on the company alone.

Kchrpm
September 13th, 2016, 06:40 AM
Oh definitely. Chevrolet has an uphill battle, but their dealer network may be a major factor. If you look at Tesla's map of their stores/galleries and service centers (https://www.tesla.com/findus#/bounds/33.054704,-96.83846110000002,32.918028,-96.96013490000001,d?search=store,service,), there are HUGE swaths of empty space. I think there are 14 states that have zero, and most other states seem to only have one (or 2-3 that are tightly packed).

I can't find a nationwide map of Chevrolet dealers, but I'm guessing you won't need to make a weekend trip out of the purchase and every dealer visit. Of course, with the relatively maintenance free nature of an electric vehicle, how important is that? Conversely, if something goes wrong, it's likely not going to be a part you can pick up at a local parts shop, and if its major will you have to get it towed hundreds of miles?

Will be interesting how it all works out.

21Kid
September 13th, 2016, 06:42 AM
:up: Looks like a competent people-mover.

I like the interior much better than the model 3. I hope Tesla fixes that dash.

Kchrpm
September 13th, 2016, 06:45 AM
I don't think I've seen this before, it has a phone holder.

http://www.chevrolet.com/content/dam/Chevrolet/northamerica/usa/nscwebsite/en/Home/Vehicles/Cars/2017_Bolt_Reveal/model_overview/01_images/2016-chevrolet-bolt-electric-vehicle-design-1480x551-05.jpg

21Kid
September 13th, 2016, 06:51 AM
And isn't it coming out a year before the Model 3, which has like 30k people on the waiting list? That would probably be enough to get quite a few cars sold.

Kchrpm
September 13th, 2016, 06:55 AM
Another thing to consider is Supercharger stations vs DC Fast Charging.

Tesla's Superchargers will get you back above 75% charge in a Model S after just an hour.
GM estimates 90 miles of charge for the first 30 minutes on a DC Fast Charging Station (and they are not being rolled out as aggressively, it seems).

thesameguy
September 13th, 2016, 09:14 AM
The CCS spec for J1772 got delayed past the original 2012 intro date which caused some issues with deployment. I think there are only two vehicles that support CCS right now, the i3 and the Spark, so there isn't even that much pressure to push them out. The Bolt may change that, but it won't help every other J1772 electric vehicle (essentially everything that isn't Asian) on the road already.

dodint
September 13th, 2016, 09:53 AM
I don't think I've seen this before, it has a phone holder.

http://www.chevrolet.com/content/dam/Chevrolet/northamerica/usa/nscwebsite/en/Home/Vehicles/Cars/2017_Bolt_Reveal/model_overview/01_images/2016-chevrolet-bolt-electric-vehicle-design-1480x551-05.jpg

So they made the center console cubby hole smaller? Yay.

I have a phone holder in my E36. It's the gap between the e-brake and the console.

Phil_SS
September 13th, 2016, 10:28 AM
Call me crazy but I would choose and trust Chevrolet's QA and build quality over Tesla's. Plus with the local dealership network and availability, I think they will eat Tesla for lunch.

Godson
September 13th, 2016, 10:31 AM
Only if every dealership can work on the car. They might have restrictions.

Also, from what my tasks owning friends, the dealer interaction with work on the Tesla is "excellent"

thesameguy
September 13th, 2016, 11:59 AM
The dealer is exactly what's stopping me from buying a Bolt. We bought the Fiat because we knew it'd be serviced by a luxury brand specialist where we'd be treated well, like valued customers. I'm not going to a fucking GM dealer unless someone puts a gun to my head. The Cadillac/Land Rover dealer selling out to the Cadillac/Chevy dealer was the first nail in my CTS-V's coffin. No thanks.

(I have nothing against GM quality - I have everything against their dealer network.)

Kchrpm
September 14th, 2016, 07:05 AM
https://www.engadget.com/2016/09/14/behind-the-wheel-of-gms-new-bolt/


The Bolt is actually expected to cost below $37,500 at launch -- but with federal tax credits will land just on or below that $30,000 sweet spot.
-----------------
While it's not going to be winning any drag races, the zero to 60 time of just under seven seconds is about on par with a Honda Civic.
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That comfort factor extends to the interior, which is surprisingly stylish. The dash, for example, has a white accent that runs back into the doors -- I caught myself rubbing my fingers on it to feel its texture. The center console is a 10.5-inch touchscreen that has the usual information about how much energy you're using, complete with a scorecard of your driving. However, I was happy to see that the climate controls have good ole physical buttons. As you'd hope for a 2016 EV, the Bolt supports both CarPlay and Android Auto via USB ports and a not-so-handy phone holder that sits under the console. Chances are you'll just use the cupholder for your phone.
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This being a hatchback it's important to note that at first glance the trunk doesn't seem that huge. But you can remove the floor to reveal a giant hiding space for your gear. Also the back seats fold down flat so it's great for hauling all your stuff around town.
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With the 120 volt outlet in the average home, the car can be fully charged in 18 hours. A 240 volt outlet will halve that time. For comparison, the BMW i3 takes 20 hours to charge its 81-mile range battery with an 120 volt outlet.

dodint
September 14th, 2016, 07:10 AM
Yeah, the i3 charge time is a head scratcher. You basically have to install their charger if you expect to drive it to work everyday. When you spec one out on the website you can add the installation as part of the cost of the car.

KillerB
September 14th, 2016, 08:38 AM
While lacking the supposed cachet of the Model 3, I actually find this a more tempting proposition. Besides, with SoCal already lousy with the Model S, the Model 3 will be no more a status symbol than a $299/mo vinyl-seat 320i.

Let's see where the lease lands. I'm not convinced on wanting to actually OWN an electric car, as the state of the art continues to advance quickly. There's also the small issue of my wife's condo not having a garage, but instead a carport. I don't think it's wired for 220V. There are chargers at work, but I'm happy to wait to see where we end up settling permanently next year before committing to a commute-mobile.

thesameguy
September 14th, 2016, 09:12 AM
I don't get those charging times. There isn't magic here - x volts at y amps equals z watts. Maybe the i3 doesn't support greater than 15a@120v charging, but not so many household electrical outlets do either. A 120v/15a outlet cannot make 60kw in 18 hours. If you happen to have a fancy custom 30a outlet then, sure, yeah, 18 hours. But I have never seen that in my life.

Kchrpm
September 14th, 2016, 09:27 AM
http://www.chevyevlife.com/bolt-ev-charging-guide/#basic


- Most U.S. homes are equipped with 120-volt, 3-prong wall outlets
- With a 120-volt outlet, you should be able to replenish the battery, based on an average commute, with an overnight charge. A 12-hour charge will give you about 48 miles of range

Phil_SS
September 14th, 2016, 11:33 AM
As it says. If I am starting off with 238 miles of range, and I use 40 miles in my commute. If I wait til say 10PM to plug in with my 120V outlet. I can fully charge the battery and get all of my expected range back by the time I leave for work the next day at say 7AM.

The question is, how much actual charge will I use during my commute. Since I don't trust EPA testing farther than I can throw it.

thesameguy
September 14th, 2016, 12:13 PM
- Most U.S. homes are equipped with 120-volt, 3-prong wall outlets
- With a 120-volt outlet, you should be able to replenish the battery, based on an average commute, with an overnight charge. A 12-hour charge will give you about 48 miles of range

That would be accurate. This is wholly fantasy:


With the 120 volt outlet in the average home, the car can be fully charged in 18 hours.

In 18 hours with 120v/15a you should be able to net roughly a 40% charge.

thesameguy
September 14th, 2016, 12:16 PM
As it says. If I am starting off with 238 miles of range, and I use 40 miles in my commute. If I wait til say 10PM to plug in with my 120V outlet. I can fully charge the battery and get all of my expected range back by the time I leave for work the next day at say 7AM.

The question is, how much actual charge will I use during my commute. Since I don't trust EPA testing farther than I can throw it.

There are a lot of factors to consider here. Are you on the highway or surface streets? Heater on? AC on? What's the ambient temperature? Headlights?

In ideal circumstances (which is probably something like daytime, 75 degrees, limited stop & go, 45mph) and a resultant indicated 238 mile range if you do 40 miles you'll use 16-20% of your charge, and you can earn that back in 12 hours plugged into a 120v/15a. If you get a 240/40a charger it's maybe an hour an a half. (I'm too lazy to actually do the math.)

21Kid
September 15th, 2016, 06:49 AM
And why wait until 10pm to charge it? Plug it in right when you get home... at 6-7pm, or whatever. Then you should have more than enough, just in case.

Kchrpm
September 15th, 2016, 07:05 AM
You save money if you charge it off-peak hours.

thesameguy
September 15th, 2016, 08:54 AM
That will vary by utility. Some places don't even offer off-peak discounts. Here, during three seasons you can charge at 4pm and get the lower rates, during the summer it's after 8pm except at certain times when it's after 10pm.

If shopping an electric car, it'd be important to call your utility and see what the electricity will actually cost. Best case here $0.06/kw makes it super cheap. Worst case here $0.25kw makes it very expensive. ;)

Kchrpm
September 15th, 2016, 08:56 AM
All good points. But that is why GM chose to specify after 10 pm.

thesameguy
September 15th, 2016, 09:02 AM
But that may not help you - not all utilities offer off-peak rate reductions. In some places - usually rural - it doesn't matter whether it's noon or midnight. You need to make the call before you buy the car. At the very least - as was the case with us - we needed to tell SMUD we had an electric car and get a second meter installed to get the rate reduction.

There was a post on the some EV forum where (I think) an Arizonan bought a EV, diligently charged it after 10pm, and got hit with a massive bill. She never made the call, didn't know her utility didn't offer off-peak rate reductions, and 20 extra kw per night bumped her up several billing tiers that made her entire consumption very expensive. Don't assume GM called every domestic utility to see what their billing practices were. They didn't.

Kchrpm
September 15th, 2016, 09:06 AM
I agree with everything you just said. But Kid asked why they specified how much it could charge from after 10 pm to "morning". Off-peak rates is why. I'm not, and they aren't, saying that off-peak rates, especially specifically after 10 pm, applies to everyone. I'm just saying that's why they chose that seemingly arbitrary time.

I should have been clearer in my original statement.

thesameguy
September 15th, 2016, 10:40 AM
Got it - and yeah, I have no idea why they arbitrarily chose 10pm or any time at all. It really doesn't make any sense - for every customer you might win with that "cheaper after 10" statement you'll lose a customer who needs cheaper after 6... and has that available through their utility. It should just say "call your utility to find out about rate reductions for EVs" or something like that. Put the idea out, let people find the specifics.

Phil_SS
September 15th, 2016, 10:42 AM
GM didn't specify 10PM, I did. And I was doing it just for a daily driving scenario. GM states this "You may want to delay charging until utility rates are at their lowest off-peak prices, which is usually at night while you sleep"

dodint
September 15th, 2016, 10:45 AM
It's nice to see one of these EV discussions where people acknowledge the electricity isn't free.

Kchrpm
September 15th, 2016, 10:51 AM
GM didn't specify 10PM, I did. And I was doing it just for a daily driving scenario. GM states this "You may want to delay charging until utility rates are at their lowest off-peak prices, which is usually at night while you sleep"

As usual, blame Pittsburgh.

thesameguy
September 15th, 2016, 03:07 PM
FFS!!!!

neanderthal
September 19th, 2016, 03:26 PM
If I were in the market for one these, one of my considerations would be where I could charge it while I was working in order to reduce charging time. Or just top it up overnight at home, even if it doesn't get fully charged, then charge it up on the weekend.

I'd buy a bike carrier, stack my bicycle on that, then go somewhere where there is free charging, while I go for a bicycle ride or to the gym. Win win. Me healthy, car full of electrons. :D

thesameguy
September 19th, 2016, 03:30 PM
If it seriously not that expensive to charge a car in California. $26/mo (1000 miles) is what the Fiat cost us. And that was some old, busted, yesterday tech. :P

Kchrpm
September 20th, 2016, 07:10 AM
http://www.autoblog.com/2016/09/20/2017-chevy-bolt-ev-cost-37495-msrp/


The 2017 Bolt EV has a starting price: $37,495. As anyone who follows the plug-in vehicle scene, that number will not be a surprise. For one, it's pretty much exactly what a leak back in January suggested and what GM has been promising since first showing off the concept in early 2015. Second, when you subtract the maximum federal tax credit of $7,500, that comes to a whisker shy of $30k. And you can bet big money that we're going to see a lot of ads for Chevy's new $29,995 electric vehicle when the car goes on sale later this year.

Emphasis mine.

Crazed_Insanity
September 20th, 2016, 07:42 AM
I think I prefer the Volt over Bolt. With 53 mile of range it is pretty much an EV and yet you can get much better range with gas motors just in case... And it is also roomier too?

dodint
September 20th, 2016, 07:54 AM
Wonder if it matters at all that when I hear "Chevy Bolt" I think of the fastener and not the electric connotation.

Kchrpm
September 20th, 2016, 07:56 AM
I couldn't have a Bolt as my only car, unlike a Volt, but as a second car or if I had partner/wife with a road trip worthy car, I think the lower maintenance would win me over vs the Volt.

dodint
September 20th, 2016, 07:58 AM
Well, you're a dude shopping for a Smart ForTwo, I disregard everything you say anyway.

Phil_SS
September 20th, 2016, 08:02 AM
Well, you're a dude shopping for a Smart ForTwo, I disregard everything you say anyway.

This whole garage thing has gotten out of hand......

Kchrpm
September 20th, 2016, 08:09 AM
Well, you're a dude shopping for a Smart ForTwo, I disregard everything you say anyway.

If I get stuck in a ditch, a kid in a Power Wheels Jeep could pull me out!

thesameguy
September 20th, 2016, 08:48 AM
Or just a couple really strong chicks!

Godson
September 20th, 2016, 09:36 AM
:lol:

Kchrpm
September 20th, 2016, 09:42 AM
"Hello Mr Carano, is Gina there? Yeah, got it stuck again."

thesameguy
September 20th, 2016, 02:25 PM
ACE! :lol:

Kchrpm
October 17th, 2016, 06:36 PM
Just saw a Cadillac commercial, seems the XT5 has one of those phone holders, too, except its holder has a wireless charger built in I think. That would be more useful than just a little slot.

Kchrpm
November 15th, 2016, 09:19 AM
http://www.autoblog.com/2016/11/15/2017-chevy-bolt-ev-first-drive-review/


After spending some time behind the wheel on beautiful Northern Michigan fall roads, we learned that no other EV is as cleverly packaged or as easy to use.
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GM figures, probably correctly, that new EV drivers don't want a full spreadsheet of data, but getting a handle on kWh used per mile is an important measure to fully understand how electric vehicles are reshaping how we drive.
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And all of the thrills that electric drive offers on any EV are here in full effect– the smooth quietness, the instant torque, the gamification to try and beat your range estimate. With the heavy slab of the 60-kWh worth of lithium-ion cells locked down under the floorboard, the Bolt is stable as she goes around any but the craziest of corners. On the straightaways, there's enough oomph in the 150-kW electric motor to propel you to 80+ miles per hour without any fuss.
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If you just throw it in D and ignore the paddle behind the left side of the steering wheel and all of the EV-specific information on the dashboard, you could be forgiven for thinking you're just in a really quiet and sensible gas car...That paddle alters the amount of regenerative braking in the Bolt EV. Think of it like engine braking that can be controlled by software...pulling the paddle towards you engages a stronger regen power, which puts more of your kinetic energy into the battery pack and slows you down. You can come to a complete stop this way, without touching the brake pedal or converting any kinetic energy into hot pads and rotors.

The difference between D and L (low gear on the shifter), is that while the Bolt will coast nicely in D, just like a standard car, in L it will immediately start slowing down and, again, come to a complete stop. (The car will engage the friction brakes if you get hit while at a stop.)
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If you do need a full charge, it'll take about nine hours from a Level 2 charger. A DC fast charging option with the SAE Combo standard that will get you 90 miles of range in about 30 minutes is available as well.
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The Bolt is also surprisingly roomy. It's not quite a Tardis, but the interior does feel bigger than it should...All the seats are comfortable, and there's plenty of head room. If you get the Premium package, even the rear seats are heated, otherwise only the front seat occupants get to bask in warm bottom glory.

Kchrpm
November 15th, 2016, 09:52 AM
Related: Chevrolet won the marketing competition this year for Motor Trend Car of the Year

http://www.motortrend.com/news/chevrolet-bolt-ev-2017-car-of-the-year/


Perhaps the most impressive thing about the Bolt EV is there are no caveats, no “for an electric car” qualifiers needed in any discussion. It is, simply, a world-class small car, and that’s before you factor in the benefits inherent in the smoothness, silence, and instant-on torque provided by the electric motor. The ride is firm and sporty, but transmitted road noise is very well damped. The steering has slightly artificial weighting, but brake feel is natural, and once you learn to use the higher regenerative braking modes, you can pretty much drive all the time without touching the friction brakes at all.

It’s not quite correct to say the Bolt EV drives just like a regular small hatchback, because, fundamentally, it drives better than most regular small hatchbacks. The under-floor battery pack keeps most of the mass low in the chassis—and between the wheels. The front-to-rear weight distribution of 56/44 percent is better than any small front-drive car in this year’s field, and it’s not far off the 54/46 of the tossable rear-drive Fiat 124 Spider. “If this car were fitted with a set of grippy tires, it’d be a helluva hot hatch,” road test editor Chris Walton said. “I’d put it against a Mazda3 or Golf for fun per mile.”

21Kid
November 16th, 2016, 06:20 AM
:up: Nice!




I can't wait to get an electric car.

Kchrpm
January 13th, 2017, 11:22 AM
Looks like the mayors of LA, Portland, San Francisco, and Seattle are trying to get a deal on 24k EVs total for their fleets, and the Bolt is the most likely candidate.

http://www.autoblog.com/2017/01/13/four-cities-buying-24000-evs/

21Kid
January 16th, 2017, 05:42 AM
:up:

Kchrpm
January 22nd, 2017, 05:45 PM
One of the employees of the YouTube channel that Adam Savage is got a Bolt, and after owning it for a little bit the channel reviewed his personal car.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Ir4y2JwbEw

balki
January 23rd, 2017, 07:06 AM
Since this is by far the most practical EV and it won Motor Trend Car of the Year I'm going to tear into it (hopefully you guys can bust some of these myths or provide alternative facts:
Car weighs 3500 lbs, would a gas counterpart not be right around 3000lbs (or worse; half a ton more than a Honda Fit)?
Will the batteries last? New car buyers may keep their car for 3 years, but most cars stay on the road 10-20 years. How much less efficient will EV batteries be after a decade of Midwest summers and winters?
With grid losses and power-plants using fossil fuels (coal especially) is there an actual benefit over a Accord hybrid or Prius?
Recharge times are deplorable and range is still well below any good hybrid (half of a small tanked Prius, less than 1/3 of an Accord). Also, there are about 100 gas stations by me before the nearest Tesla charging station (don't have access to a garage for a Bolt)

“If this car were fitted with a set of grippy tires, it’d be a helluva hot hatch,” road test editor Chris Walton said. “I’d put it against a Mazda3 or Golf for fun per mile.”
Those are cars that are half the price. When you factor in higher trim levels and the Bolt's credits (we'll see if Trump keeps them intact for long) the Bolt is still a $5-10k premium (about the difference between a Yaris and base Camry or a Focus ST and Mustang GT, which are pretty big)

TL : DR - EVs look like they're still a decade* away from from being legit
*a decade assuming gas prices go up at least 20% and general emissions standards get sticker, neither of which are a given with Russia+Iran+Iraq+fracking and the current US cabinet.

thesameguy
January 23rd, 2017, 09:09 AM
Point of comparison: Fiat 500e weighs 800lbs more than a 500. I believe the Bolt has another 300lbs of batteries. It's probably a 2500lb car with a size-appropriate 1.4l motor.

Battery life has not been a problem. We've got 7 year old Volts running around without issue. 10 year old Priuses - by the numbers - are fine. While you may ultimately need to replace them, consider how many spark plugs, oil changes, coolant changes, seal changes, head gasket changes, fuel injector cleanings, fuel pump replacements, filter replacements, even brake replacements you're not doing with an EV. Our 500e had zero service. At the *very least* that's $360 worth of oil changes we didn't pay for. So while you may get hit with a $5000 or $10,000 repair bill down the road, there are a bunch of bills you didn't get hit with for eight or ten years. You also paid roughly 10% in fuel costs, maybe less.

Yes. And it's been shown in dozens of ways over and over again. Emissions work in a centralized place is much more efficient than mobile emissions work. Gasoline doesn't just appear at gas stations - it made 1000s of miles of way, shipped to a port, poured into diesel trucks, and then diesel trucks are driven all over the place constantly leaving gasoline at stations. Whatever loss happens in power lines doesn't even approximate the loss that happens from pumping, refining, and transporting gasoline. Also, a beefier grid benefits everyone all the time, and having armies of cars that use it at night - when it's otherwise quite idle - means that power companies get more bang for their buck than they traditionally have. Aside from the actual production and destruction of batteries, EVs are all win, all the time.

You don't need a garage to charge a car. You just need power wherever you park it. The infrastructure for that doesn't exist yet, but you could say the same thing about gas stations 100 years ago. As they are adopted, infrastructure will get built. Whether that's cities installing chargers in parking area or apartment complexes installing them for residents, or businesses installing them for employees it will happen. It is happening.

balki
January 23rd, 2017, 11:23 AM
I don't like comparing Prius batteries to EV's (even if they were the exact same batteries); the Prius can easily have it's software keep the charge between 30-70% while a pure EV would be sacrificing a ton of driving range. "7 year old Volts running around without issue" debunks this to a certain extent (that's less than halfway through a car's life, though).
Forgot about the well-to-tank petrol costs, doh! (good post overall, but that was especially informative)
Charging is just not an option for at least a million (probably 2M) cars by me. We're no where near going 400 miles on a 5 minute charge. You could at least transport a 30lb jug containing near 5 gallons of gas. (quick swap batteries may become a possibility)

I can see how EV >> ICE (especially in CA), but seems that good hybrids sacrifice a little mpg for a lot more practicality (from weight, to range, to price, ...)
PS; currently driving a 9 mpg RX-8

Godson
January 23rd, 2017, 11:40 AM
Battery life has not been a problem. We've got 7 year old Volts running around without issue. 10 year old Priuses - by the numbers - are fine. While you may ultimately need to replace them, consider how many spark plugs, oil changes, coolant changes, seal changes, head gasket changes, fuel injector cleanings, fuel pump replacements, filter replacements, even brake replacements you're not doing with an EV. Our 500e had zero service. At the *very least* that's $360 worth of oil changes we didn't pay for. So while you may get hit with a $5000 or $10,000 repair bill down the road, there are a bunch of bills you didn't get hit with for eight or ten years. You also paid roughly 10% in fuel costs, maybe less.



I thought a little at a time was better...

Crazed_Insanity
January 23rd, 2017, 11:14 PM
I think the driving factor is whether if this is going to be your only car. If it is, then a hybrid would make more sense for you.

If EV is your 2nd car, you might as well maximize efficiency by not carrying around an IC engine around for nothing... Also as tsg said, you can save a lot with maintenance!

However, I think I would only lease EVs for now. Future is just too unpredictable 10 years down the road.

novicius
January 24th, 2017, 03:38 AM
Prius taxi cabs seem to get over 300,000 miles out of their packs before replacing them (and even then they're holding nearly 60% of their juice). This data is all easily found via Google, the idea that a battery pack is gonna die anytime soon from usage is a myth.


"7 year old Volts running around without issue" debunks this to a certain extent (that's less than halfway through a car's life, though).

The Chevy Volt comes with a battery warranty that is good for at least 8 years and 100,000 miles, but many of the Volts popping up on the market have passed that 100,000-mile mark.
The system is modular; (http://www.autoblog.com/2015/09/02/real-costs-chevy-volt-road/) odds are you're not going to be replacing everything in one shot after 8 years.

Charging is really the only issue: are you living a lifestyle that allows you to charge at home & at work, price be damned? Because range anxiety will get to you before the cost of charging even during peak hours will.

21Kid
January 24th, 2017, 08:12 AM
The technology is evolving at such a rapid pace that it probably won't even be a concern in 5 years (maybe 10).
I don't think any ICE improvements would even touch what they'll be able to do with electric cars in the near future.

balki
January 24th, 2017, 12:26 PM
I don't think so either, but ICEs have a huge resource advantage (was about to say head-start, but EVs came before the 4-stroke ICE).
ICEs are still far ahead of batteries in some ways: Tesla's "85 kWh battery pack weighs 1,200 lb", that's almost 2 Viper engines (plus those ICEs can do more than two hot-laps)

TheBenior
January 24th, 2017, 03:25 PM
Two hot laps? A Tesla Model S P85D couldn't do one around Virginia International Raceway without going into reduced power mode during Car and Driver's annual Lightning Lap.

Yw-slayer
January 24th, 2017, 07:03 PM
That's OK though, that's hardly a concern for most Chevy Bolt, Tesla, or Prius buyers.

thesameguy
January 24th, 2017, 07:38 PM
Yeah. It's not like a Corvette can do 200 miles for $2 and neither of them can do 800 miles on one refill/recharge. Until something like that exists it's all tradeoffs. For most, cheap operation is probably more useful than turning in laps.

TheBenior
January 24th, 2017, 09:46 PM
Oh, I agree. I just think that as far as performance goes (besides being able to do 1-2 stupid fast drag starts), electric vehicles have a long way to go to compare to ICE cars.

The 6.4 second 0-60 and 15.0 quarter mile that the Bolt supposedly gets will be more than good enough for any commuter pod I need. Hell, in another 5 years, I may consider replacing my MS3 with an electric car. Even a used Nissan Leaf would be fine. My commute is never over 45 miles round trip and I'm married, so the birth control styling isn't an issue. I'll still have my Ducati for fun and my CX-5 for long trips.

balki
January 25th, 2017, 06:08 AM
So the answer is to have 3 vehicles? :lol:
Bike + practical car = :up:

...tradeoffs. For most, cheap operation is probably more useful than turning in laps.
That's my gripe (first part, turning is all but useless). Don't recall exactly with the CotY Motor Trend article said, but it was something along the lines of 'this is a great car, not just a great EV car'
If you take out the EV factor I don't see how this is a great car (I'm picking on MT here, not you). Until gas hits $10/gallon I don't see how a $30-40k Bolt is twice the car of a Honda Fit or 150% of an Accord Hybrid (do hybrids still get government rebates?).
'cheap operation' is certainly there, but most new car buyers/leasers don't look further down than 2-5 years. The math may work well for Audi owners, but not Camry owners

EVs are kind of where affordable LCD TV's were 15 years ago. They appear to be the future, but early adopters aside, their trade-offs are not currently worth it (remember how they were +200% the cost and SD channels looked like pixelated crap compared to a CRT.)

21Kid
January 25th, 2017, 06:42 AM
so the birth control styling isn't an issue. yes, it is. : pukeemoji:

thesameguy
January 25th, 2017, 09:42 AM
So the answer is to have 3 vehicles? :lol:
Bike + practical car = :up:

That's my gripe (first part, turning is all but useless). Don't recall exactly with the CotY Motor Trend article said, but it was something along the lines of 'this is a great car, not just a great EV car'
If you take out the EV factor I don't see how this is a great car (I'm picking on MT here, not you). Until gas hits $10/gallon I don't see how a $30-40k Bolt is twice the car of a Honda Fit or 150% of an Accord Hybrid (do hybrids still get government rebates?).
'cheap operation' is certainly there, but most new car buyers/leasers don't look further down than 2-5 years. The math may work well for Audi owners, but not Camry owners

EVs are kind of where affordable LCD TV's were 15 years ago. They appear to be the future, but early adopters aside, their trade-offs are not currently worth it (remember how they were +200% the cost and SD channels looked like pixelated crap compared to a CRT.)

I hear what you're saying, but I do think you're making some inaccurate generalizations. Most people don't own cars for more than 5-7 years - and most people who buy new cars probably not much more than 5. The only people who care about what a car looks like in Year 9 or Year 13 are people like me, who buy really used cars. Tesla doesn't give a flying fuck about me, and they shouldn't. I'm probably never going to give them a dime. All Tesla (and GM, and Fiat, etc.) care about is the first 5 or 7 years - that first purchase + recovery or lease + CPO period. After that, the car can explode for all they care. They probably hope it does. There is a lot to be said for cost control - having a car that costs almost nothing to fuel and requires almost no maintenance is a big win for a lot of people. If you actually run the numbers, that $20k Camry vs. $35k Bolt is not that big of a gap. The government covers $7500+ of that spread. At $3/gallon and 30mpg average (which I think is quite high) the Camry drinks $1200 worth of gas. An EV about $120 of electricity. That's another $1080/year you get back. Now your gap is, what, $2100 over five years? If you live in California, you probably got another $2500 back - now you made $400. Spent time in traffic driving down your average fuel economy? Made more. Actually got your fluids & filters changed on time? Made more.

There are surely plenty of situations where an EV won't work out... I personally am one of them since I get sent off on 100-300 mile trips pretty routinely. Maybe you've got an abnormally long commute, maybe you live in an MTU and don't have a place to put a charger. Lots of reasons, sure. But IME most reasons to not own an EV are logistical, and not financial. And [conspiracy theory]I think manufacturers know this, know there are subsidies, and are inflating EV prices artificially to just push the boundaries of acceptable cost. I think the actual cost floor on EVs is much lower than we've been lead to believe.[/conspiracy theory] As I've said before, I don't think EVs are for everyone (yet), but I do think EVs are for more people than people think. ;)

KillerB
January 25th, 2017, 10:19 AM
The lack of a way to charge is the only thing preventing me from being on the list for a Tesla 3. By the time it's actually being delivered I probably will but there are no guarantees.

A Prius Prime would be the best alternative - we have free charging at work - but to me that eliminates too many of the "no gas, much less maintenance" benefits.

thesameguy
January 25th, 2017, 10:52 AM
Yeah, hybrids are the ones I haven't historically grasped the finances of. Double the complexity, only a modest improvement in functional fuel economy, and a pretty big premium for those "benefits." Recently those premiums have fallen pretty dramatically, though - an extra couple grand for a Prius vs a Camry or a Fusion Hybrid vs. an SE helps it make sense, but it's still pretty tight. $720/yr to fuel a 50mph hybrid vs. $120/yr to fuel an electric is like whaaaaaaa? It's just not good enough. The series cars almost make sense - the new Volt does enough electric-only mileage that you may not use the ICE very often. I could get behind that, especially if it was my only car... but it's not. So fuck it! :P

balki
January 26th, 2017, 05:14 AM
Well, seems like you've debunked just about everything
[conspiracy theory]The biggest reason the Bolt is on the market for less than $50k, and in decent numbers, is to meet government regulations so Chevy can sell 2x Suburbans to families of four or less and Uber drivers[/conspiracy theory]

There's still the range (non-issue for me) and charge (absolute deal-breaker) issues

Is it really $120/yr to fuel an electric? That's a small (500sq-ft) apartment's monthly summer electric bill
edit: 28¢/kWh x 12000mi x 0.3 kWh/mi = over $1000. Where are you stealing the bulk of your electrons from that it comes out to just over 3¢ a kWh?
Also, roughly how many kWh will you be charged for to drive 1000mi in a month (ie; how much charge is lost in the EVs batteries in a month and how much electricity is lost from the meter to the EVs batteries)

thesameguy
January 26th, 2017, 12:25 PM
I think I mathed wrong based on our driving habits vs the actual comparison I was making. :lol:

At our electric rate ($0.08/kw) it actually cost us as much as $256 to drive 12k annually. But, I think that number is actually $218 since we're efficient drivers. ;)

$0.28 is really expensive electricity. There are only a few places in California where you'd pay that much. Our normal rates are $0.06 to $0.25 based on time of use etc. With our utility (and many utilities) you can sign up for an EV program that locks evening rates... our lock was $0.08. That hasn't changed in years.

balki
January 26th, 2017, 12:28 PM
no, it's $0.06 here, but extra pound-me-in-the-ass fees, delivery charges, and taxes bring up it to 20¢ to +35¢ per kWh
like buying a $2 ticket off of stub hub and paying $10

thesameguy
January 26th, 2017, 12:30 PM
Fuuuuu. That sucks balls.

I'd be interested to know what Random pays, only because his utility is similarly of the pound-me-in-the-ass persuasion.

Our worst-ever electrical bill was $170. The house is about 2600 sq ft.

Godson
January 26th, 2017, 01:32 PM
I'd rather not think about my electric/gas bills. #myhousewasbuiltin1919

Random
January 26th, 2017, 02:13 PM
Fuuuuu. That sucks balls.

I'd be interested to know what Random pays, only because his utility is similarly of the pound-me-in-the-ass persuasion.

Our worst-ever electrical bill was $170. The house is about 2600 sq ft.

Tier 1 electric rate is 18-19 cents/kwh, Tier 2 is 24-25 cents/kwh.

We have a double-humped cost distribution with peaks in the mid summer (AC) and mid winter (heat). Peak summer bill (July) was ~$150 ($145 electricity), peak winter bill (last month) was ~$250 ($88 electricity), spring and fall bills are $50-$75 depending on the weather (mostly electricity). In the Spring/Fall we are generally Tier 1; once we start running the HVAC fan, we have been bumping into Tier 2 at the ends of the months. Averaged over the year...call it $80/month for electricity?

1850 sqft house, semi-insulated, gas heat and hot water, 2 adults, 2 kids, someone home all day almost every day.

KillerB
January 26th, 2017, 02:32 PM
My worst electric bill was in my 2500 sq ft house in PA that was stupidly built in the 1980s with electric baseboard heat. Just over $500 for January.

The next day I went out and bought a wood pellet stove.

That's a hidden savings in cost-of-living here on the West Coast - I save several hundred a month in heating and AC costs.

Yw-slayer
January 26th, 2017, 03:55 PM
I usually pay Usd350-700 a month for electricity.

Random
January 26th, 2017, 04:04 PM
Oof. :|

thesameguy
January 26th, 2017, 04:08 PM
I'd rather not think about my electric/gas bills. #myhousewasbuiltin1919

My previous house was '32 and it was about the same as the current house - the difference of course being 1932 house was 1200 sq ft and 1960 house is 2600 sq ft. :lol:

TheBenior
January 26th, 2017, 05:10 PM
Heating my previous 1892 built uninsulated 650 sq ft apartment cost as much to heat as my 1300 sq ft semi-insulated house (and more like 2000+ if you count the unfinished basement). :/

Jason
January 26th, 2017, 05:42 PM
I guess that's the plus side of living in an apartment... included utilities :D I tend to forget about that...

Back on topic though, costs aside, I still can't get over the logistics. Different charger tech/standards, possibly more importantly, long charge times just makes EVs an inconvenient option for many. I could easily get by M-F, since there's a charger at work (I see Volts on it, so I assume the Bolt would work), but weekends I have no clue, and road trips are certainly out.

thesameguy
January 26th, 2017, 07:32 PM
Charging standards is really not a problem - there is CHADEMO, SAE, and Tesla's. Asian cars are typically CHADEMO, everything else is SAE. Tesla has it's own, but is compatible with the SAE standard. There are converters to go from SAE to Tesla. Most of the older chargers are CHADEMO, since the Leaf was early to market. Most newer chargers are SAE, and may also support CHADEMO. With all the domestics and all the Euros and Tesla supporting SAE, the only problems you're likely to encounter is if you own an Asian car. On both coasts (at least) SAE chargers are everywhere. Everything else is just amperage, and that doesn't limit charging ability, just speed (you can't charge faster than your car supports, or the grid supports).

Yw-slayer
January 26th, 2017, 09:48 PM
Oof. :|

It's expensive here for various reasons, the main one being that there are 2 monopolies here. One for HK island and one for everywhere else. :lol:

That said, blackouts/brownouts are extremely rare in most urban areas.

balki
January 27th, 2017, 04:31 AM
you forgot to mention that you have a heated and AC'd 7-car-garage.
seriously, though, everywhere I've lived has had a monopoly and I've only once gone past $300/mo

Crazed_Insanity
January 29th, 2017, 09:25 PM
The only reason I'm hesitant about EVs is because I'm averaging $200/m electric bill.... Peak summer time reaching nearly $400! (1400 sqft uninsulated house) The more energy I use, I'll be charged an even higher rate... So I can't imagine having an EV ballooning my bill further, especially gas is so cheap now.

Anyway, just installed solar and supposedly it can stabilized my bill down to $140/m payment for 15 years. Fingers crossed. So far with so much rain, I'm still using more than I get from the sun! :(

Hopefully sunnier days and adding insulation can help me become an energy producer, then maybe I'll get an EV as a commuter car...

balki
January 30th, 2017, 04:28 AM
how much was solar (equipment + install)?

Random
January 30th, 2017, 06:49 AM
At a stable 15-year rate of 140/mo, it sounds like he went with a PPA. Install and equipment are usually free with those.

Crazed_Insanity
January 30th, 2017, 07:48 AM
Yeah, it's cheaper than an EV @ around $27k!

My system was sized based on my annual usage of 10k kWh, so that's about 27kwh/day.(Put it into EV perspective... Volt battery is 18kwh and that can propel you 53 miles)

22 Hyundai panels with 25 yr warranty(I'm hoping Hyundai probably won't go under like other solar companies...) without the 30% tax credit as down payment, my payments would balloon to $200/m. That could still be worthwhile, considering these panels stabilized my energy cost and after 15 yrs I'd get free energy....

Anyway, right now my average daily energy production is way short of my goal of 27kwh. My peak output back in September was only 29kwh in a day... During these winter months, my best was only about 20kwh. And in a rainy day, you end up with pretty much nothing..., but so far my solar payment and my utility bill are still below my average monthly bill... So fingers crossed...

Need to get my house insulated and trim that huge tree next to my house before summer comes along... At this rate, my system most likely won't make the theoretical max of 10k kWh...

Unless I can become a net energy producer, I probably won't buy an EV..., anyway, need to monitor my electric bill til next September to see if I can make owning an EV worthwhile.

Random
January 30th, 2017, 08:19 AM
Ah, ok, you were doing the monthly math based on install cost.

thesameguy
January 30th, 2017, 02:45 PM
I think there is some faulty math going on here - you can't just worry about what an EV adds to your electric bill without comparing what fuel costs. The Audi was costing $170/mo to fuel... even if an EV added $169.99 to the monthly bill it would *still* would have been cheaper than the Audi. Obviously if the original car had been a Geo Metro things would have been different, but even $100 in gasoline isn't that much. You have to *average* 33mpg to keep gasoline under $100/mo at 1000 miles/month. That's pretty tough to do.

Also, EV charging typically happens at night, and most utilities provide not only incentives for off-peak usage for special incentives for off-peak EV usage. Peak usage at my place can be upwards of $0.25/kwh, but charging the Fiat was locked in at $0.08/kwh from 10pm til 8am. Charging the Fiat was excluded from tiered billing entirely between those hours.

I don't have a horse in the race, just trying to present the full picture.

Crazed_Insanity
January 30th, 2017, 05:19 PM
My S2k current fuel cost is about $160/m at current gas prices. Let's raise gas price to a more realistic $200/m and assume maintenance costs to be about $50/m... So ideally the $250 saved would be used toward my new EV lease payment! My math isn't really apples to apples, just looking after my wallet! ;)

Also, I'm not on any time of use plans because somebody or our cats are always home... We're pushing thru tier3 into tier 4 rates at summer times, that's why I don't think I can afford EVs sucking anymore juice out of my house without solar helping out. I suppose if needed, we can add another special EV charging line to take advantage the lower EV rates if gas prices do skyrocket, but I'm hoping to eventually cut my consumption so that I can be so green that my commute in the future can just be powered by the sun... Anyway, we'll see.

Even without trump in office, future gas prices, utility prices, and EV lease prices may vary greatly. So fingers crossed.

Yw-slayer
January 30th, 2017, 06:38 PM
you forgot to mention that you have a heated and AC'd 7-car-garage.
seriously, though, everywhere I've lived has had a monopoly and I've only once gone past $300/mo

But you don't live in HK, where my electricity bill for the last month was USD270. It gets worse in the middle of summer. My fuel prices are extortionate compared to almost everywhere else on the planet.

Then again, I can get 1000/1000 fibre broadband for less than USD100/month. I can also get 10G fiber. So that mean I can read the forum faster. :finger:

(hilariously, when I posted on Tomshardware seeking advice on whether my PCs were fully utilising the connection, someone accused me of lying about the former, drawing on his "extensive experience as a system integrator all across the US especially in Southern Florida." A bunch of people told him to STFU, yet he refused to admit defeat. And of course, when I visited Seoul in 2011 or so, my very very mid-range hotel room had a 100Mb connection. :lol:)

TheBenior
January 30th, 2017, 09:11 PM
But you don't live in HK, where my electricity bill for the last month was USD270. It gets worse in the middle of summer. My fuel prices are extortionate compared to almost everywhere else on the planet.

Then again, I can get 1000/1000 fibre broadband for less than USD100/month. I can also get 10G fiber. So that mean I can read the forum faster. :finger:
I can get gigabit internet for $70/month from 2 different service providers.

Last week I paid $2.71/gallon for 93 AKI (~98 RON). I think my highest electric bill for my 1300 sq ft above grade house was $160 last year, and that's with air conditioning, a plasma TV, and a bearded dragon and tortoise who each have 125w mercury vapor heat lamps.

Yw-slayer
January 31st, 2017, 03:13 AM
That's cool - but your city is a warzone and worse than most countries on the Middle East, right?

TheBenior
January 31st, 2017, 04:04 AM
Just certain neighborhoods. It's pretty heavily concentrated in a few areas (http://heyjackass.com/2016-deadliest-hoods/).

Yw-slayer
January 31st, 2017, 04:28 AM
Englewood and Inglewood. CAN'T BE A COINCIDENCE?

Crazed_Insanity
February 8th, 2017, 01:39 PM
Finally saw a Bolt on the road recently..., unfortunately wife still think it's too small.

Kia Soul EV also has a good lease deal right now, probably because it's 93mile range is now instantly outclassed by the Bolt!

But anyway, wife doesn't want another Korean car in our garage...

I guess I'm never going to have an EV... here's hoping Model 3 become available soon...

thesameguy
May 9th, 2017, 03:45 PM
Against all reason, my parents bought a Bolt. I can't even be excited about it.

Kchrpm
May 9th, 2017, 08:17 PM
:up: :up: :up: I look forward to hearing about their experience.

Crazed_Insanity
May 10th, 2017, 10:46 AM
What are the reasons against Bolt? Should've waited for the Model 3? ;)

If I'm gonna get an EV now, I think Bolt is probably the best choice right now, no?

Anyway, last month was mostly sunny and temperatures were mild enough that we didn't use heat nor AC... and result was we ended up making $100 from our electric company due to the solar panels!!! I think we sold an averaged about 22kWh daily to Edison last month... We installed solar last sept and last month was the only month with huge excess. Pretty much zero out all of previous month's bills...

If this continues, I think I'm going to consider getting an EV... for now probably just a Volt. If 2 lease deals being equal, I'll definitely go for the Bolt. However, for now, Bolts are way more pricier...

BTW, I'm not really sure if I want to BUY an EV. I don't mind owning my S2000 for 15 years, but surely I don't want to own an EV with tech dated that old right? Until the EV tech settles down, shouldn't cheap leases be more preferable?

thesameguy
May 11th, 2017, 09:08 AM
Nothing against the Bolt, it's just more in a series of insane decision making.

In 2012, my mom became convinced their '02 9-3 was too small for two people to comfortably drive (WHAT) and that the only solution was a modern full-size sedan. It had to be a Fusion, because that's what her coworker had. They bought a fully-loaded but four cylinder (my only victory) '12 Fusion in like September or October, literally a month or two before the vastly improved '13 models came out because they just couldn't wait another month or two. No, they did not get an "end of the year" discount because it was September, they got a $28,000 Ford Fusion dafuq.

In 2013, they mutually decided that the Fusion did not get adequately good gas mileage so when we leased the 500e, they went in and leased one a week later. My dad - who is retired and basically goes nowhere by himself - inherited the Fusion and my mom started driving the 500e. Why the 500e was an acceptable size when the 9-3 was not is beyond me, but whatever. So now they have a payment on the Fusion and a payment on the 500e, and one of them sits in the garage 166 hours a week.

In 2016, they paid off the Fusion and were getting ready to turn in the 500e. We had several long discussions about no car payments, "what if we want to visit family in Portland or Las Vegas," and other car-related topics. The decision was to turn in the Fiat, save that $200/month, and keep the Fusion "forever." At the time, it had like 28,000 miles on it and was absolutely mint. like new. But, worth only about $12,000 (FAIL). The buyout on the Fiat was like $22k, but worst case they could have turned it in and bought another '13 or '14 500e off the lot for under $10k. But, no, a limited-range electric car was not suitable as an only car and they did not want a payment. So, Fusion.

Last weekend they came by, I find out they traded in the Fusion for $9k, suddenly limited range is no problem, and they can afford the $300/mo note on the Bolt ($9k down...) so it's not a problem. I'm just really irritated. They paid $16,000 to drive a Fusion 28,000 miles instead of just keeping the 9-3, and rather than pick up a $10k 500e, they needed a $40k Bolt. If weekend drives to Tahoe or SF were part of the equation then moving from a 100 mile car to a 200 mile car makes great sense, good on them. But they don't. The drive downtown to an art museum and to Costco and that's about it, about 20 miles per day on average. The Fiat did that great, the extra 100 mile range wins them nothing.

My dad is terrible with money, and my mom is passive-aggressive so she doesn't say no in the moment, she complains a year later. The Bolt is like a 4,000 pound calendar item that I am going to have to loan my dad an ICE car and listen to my mom complain ad nauseum sometime around Christmas about how much she hates the Bolt, and all the while it's sucking away their retirement savings that my dad swore would be used to take my mom travelling.

Sorry about the TMI. Just really irritated about this.

novicius
May 11th, 2017, 09:52 AM
Nothing against the Bolt, it's just more in a series of insane decision making...Sorry about the TMI. Just really irritated about this.
This is how I feel when Nate/Keith/Tyler talk about their plans for their fun cars in the GTX Hangout. :lol: #zing #luvyouguys

Kchrpm
May 11th, 2017, 11:00 AM
This is how I feel when Nate/Keith/Tyler talk about their plans for their fun cars in the GTX Hangout. :lol: #zing #luvyouguys

You mean the three people without kids to worry about when making financial decisions? :) We know we're going to spend more than we have to, and we choose to do it, because we can afford to! LIVE WITH IT, SUCKA.

novicius
May 11th, 2017, 11:03 AM
RATATATATATA! :D ;) :up:

thesameguy
May 11th, 2017, 12:04 PM
I will 100% buy off on doing silly things with money in the name of fun, what I have a really hard time with is extended discussions about two rational options that somehow end up with a third, irrational option and then an attempt to justify that irrational option in the name of pragmatism or practicality. If you want to do something that doesn't make sense, do it, but don't involve me in some weird pointless process and then fabricate "reasons" as to why it made sense and especially don't do all this and then ask me for sympathy or help. That's the worst of it. "You helped me with two good options but I went for a third, vain option and now I need your assistance as a result" is the worst.

Edit: To be sure, I'm the idiot here because I'm the one who participated in the discussions about the Saab, the Fusion, the 500e, and now the Bolt. I need to give up hope that making sense has anything to do with anything my parents do. I seriously think I'm adopted.

Crazed_Insanity
May 11th, 2017, 12:32 PM
People make decisions based on emotions and they try to attempt rationally justify their stupid decisions.

http://bigthink.com/experts-corner/decisions-are-emotional-not-logical-the-neuroscience-behind-decision-making

Don't be too hard on yourself... which might result in causing yourself to have more fucked up emotions which might end up driving you to make stupid decisions! :p

They really should've gotten a Volt so they can have extended range EV, but then it might be too small..., but compared to 500e it should be spacious! Anyway, don't waste time reasoning with your mom... invest more time to help her feel better... that should help her make wiser decisions too! (mother's day coming up...)

Godson
May 11th, 2017, 02:22 PM
This is how I feel when Nate/Keith/Tyler talk about their plans for their fun cars in the GTX Hangout. :lol: #zing #luvyouguys

Bitch, I'm fabulous.

novicius
May 11th, 2017, 05:44 PM
Yes, yes you are Tyler. :cool:

Yw-slayer
May 11th, 2017, 06:14 PM
It's not about having kids - it's about making bad financial decisions. I agree with TSG that that was a series of bad decisions.


Nothing against the Bolt, it's just more in a series of insane decision making.

Have you thought about (1) Adding up all the money they threw down the drain by selling the 9-3X (2) Printing the Excel table and (3) If things get boring at Thanksgiving or Christmas, standing up, dropping it on the table, and going for a toilet break.

balki
May 11th, 2017, 07:33 PM
I bet he already did and ...
They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They absolutely will not stop, ever, until they are driving a fully loaded 2017 Camry Hydrogen Hybrid!

Godson
May 12th, 2017, 05:38 AM
Yw, that idea is fucking awesome.

Kchrpm
May 12th, 2017, 05:41 AM
Yeah, like they'll give a damn if you show them a bunch of numbers on a piece of paper that they won't bother reading and probably won't understand.

Godson
May 12th, 2017, 07:12 AM
My dad would, because he is an excel nut. I'd have him, hook, line, and sinker.

thesameguy
May 12th, 2017, 09:26 AM
It's a good point, and it's part of my frustration. My dad is the KING of rationalizing. When I was young, all our "logical discussions" about why I couldn't do the things I wanted to do made me feel like he was the model of logic, but in retrospect he's just the master of selective fact presentation... he will gather up everything that supports what he wants to do and discard everything that opposes. When I was young with limited knowledge and experience I couldn't see what was happening, but as an adult with the internet at my disposal it's always easy to destabilize whatever emotionally-founded but factually-positioned argument he concocts. I've learned it gets real ugly if you recycle his discarded opposition facts into a functional argument against.

As applies here, we discussed the Volt and Bolt back in November, when the Fiat's lease was coming up. The simple equation was - as always - how much gas you could buy for the Fusion with the cost of an EV. With a $169-$199 lease on a 500e, that math was very defensible ($120-$170 saved in fuel, plus a $2500 rebate) but neither Bolt nor Volt have such attractive deals and they are each more expensive than a 500e to boot. It was very easy to demonstrate either would be a 100% vanity purchase, they're not financially defensible. When they presented the Bolt last weekend, I think he tried to lay that shit on me... "Well, we were paying $200 a month in fuel for the Fusion, and the Bolt is $300/mo..." and he trailed off. A) There ain't no $200/mo in fuel for the Fusion, they are not driving 1500+ miles per month in retirement and B) $200/mo in fuel vs. $300/mo payment is still a net loss, and C) it completely leaves out the fact they put nine grand down.

Logic is a dead end, my dad knows the numbers. Those are just facts he didn't select for this argument. :lol:

If he said "I wanted a Bolt" it'd be case closed. But it didn't go down that way... it was a discussion purportedly based in logic but was nothing more than mental masturbation. Now not only is it a waste of money, it's a waste of time too.

Anywho, my initial reaction to the Bolt itself is it's fine. I'll get some wheel time this weekend I'm sure - but I can think of a LOT of things I'd rather have for forty large. Like a CX5 and $15,000 worth of gas. But not a Civic Type R.

Crazed_Insanity
May 14th, 2017, 09:42 PM
Yeah, financially, it just doesn't make sense to buy an EV..., I'm only willing to pull the trigger to lease one cheap..., ideally below $150/mon...

If my solar can consistently create surplus, then maybe $200/mon...

SoCal has a dealer offering about $185/mon for the Volt, I'm closely monitoring the situation!

I think Hyundai has caught on to the fact that it doesn't make financial sense to buy an EV so they're offering a 'subscription service' with unlimited miles! Since they can remotely monitor your daily usage, they are even refunding you the electricity used based on average utility rate, I think around 18cents/kWh... Of course the subscription prohibits you from using the vehicle for Uber...

I'm getting more and more enticed...

Still, I wonder what happens to all the older generation EVs at the end of the cheap lease or subscriptions... or manufacturers are just playing this game to game the CA regulations...

neanderthal
May 19th, 2017, 06:52 PM
It's not a game.
They are making electric cars because California requires them to make them in order to sell their other cars in the California market. At least, that is how it was originally worded.

Don't know how much they are required to anymore. But, they get "clean vehicle?" credits to apply to the rest of their fleets. I don't recall exactly how that works either. It was similar to the gas guzzler thing I think, where the higher number of high FE vehicles you sold increased your CAFE (Corporate Average Fuel Economy) and prevented you from going below the threshold where you'd be fined.

But, i'm too out of fucks to google it for you.

Crazed_Insanity
May 20th, 2017, 11:50 AM
Anyway, whether one considers this a 'game' or not, I'm glad at least consumers are the ones reaping the benefits!

thesameguy
May 28th, 2017, 10:57 PM
It's not a game.
They are making electric cars because California requires them to make them in order to sell their other cars in the California market. At least, that is how it was originally worded.

Don't know how much they are required to anymore. But, they get "clean vehicle?" credits to apply to the rest of their fleets. I don't recall exactly how that works either. It was similar to the gas guzzler thing I think, where the higher number of high FE vehicles you sold increased your CAFE (Corporate Average Fuel Economy) and prevented you from going below the threshold where you'd be fined.

But, i'm too out of fucks to google it for you.

None of this is really accurate.

California only requires that six largest carmakers offer electric cars. You will notice Mercedes has no electric car, for example. Neither does Subaru.

The GHG Reduction program is Federal, and "clean vehicles" can be anything from ZEVs to BEVs to even clean diesels. Those vehicles offset dirtier vehicles to produce an average. If you end up under target, you can apply those credits forwards or backwards within a timeframe or sell them in a marketplace to other manufacturers. There is no requirement to sell EVs, just clean cars. Nobody is having problems meeting these targets, even EV-less Mercedes and Subaru.

The first point is pretty fixed, not much discussion. California levied specific requirements on specific manufacturers and that's that. The second is absolutely a game, just like CAFE is. Sell Escorts so you can sell F150s, etc. The big brands are well versed in these systems and they game the shit out of them. It's a bit daft to suggest otherwise.

There is a lot more in this discussion, though, including the perceived threat from Tesla, the dramatic ramping of CAFE, and China. The only way manufacturers are going to be able to sell big cars and trucks in a country with a 55mpg CAFE requirement is to sell the shit of out cars that get 100+ mpg(e). They are going to need to game both the GHG and CAFE system to sell the high-profit vehicles they like to. They also don't want to be caught out in the cold if and when BEVs gain wide acceptance - not having strong R&D done would be a major misstep. None of these guys want to be caught out like that. China has a gigantic potential market for EVs - range is less of a concern there, and EVs may be the only reasonable way to clean up the smog problem. All of this folds together into a pretty complex system. Game is a pretty apt description, IMHO.

Discussing "what happens to old EVs" is very interesting, but probably more than is useful here. I have my own conspiracy theory, but meh, whatever.

Anywho, I drove the Bolt around for a good long while and walked away... ambivalent. :lol: I'm really having a hard time understanding the attraction of a 200 mile range. It seems like such a not here and not there number... Too much for local driving, and you still can't get very far. There are surely applications for it, I just can't think of them, and can't apply it to my life. Or my parents! While driving around my dad theorized about all the places they might go with a roughly 160 mile freeway range. We came up with Modesto and Yuba City. Tesla's 300 mile range is solid (and in fact I saw *several* in Tahoe this weekend) and that's something, but failing that 100 miles seems like a good place to be.

On the surface, it's a modern GM car. It's nicely assembled, materials feel good, switchgear is nice. Really, faultless... unless you compare it to other $45,000 cars and then you might be a little underwhelmed. But, only a little. it's nice. The same can largely be said for the drive - in a vacuum, it's a nice drive, easy, comfortable, obviously quiet. If you're looking for something engaging, it's disappointing. Of course, it's a commuter and not a sports car and to that end I think it delivers on its promise. The only thing I found annoying is the shifter - it's idiotically placed like so many modern GM cars - there is no way to get a grip on it. Pushing the button on the side and then moving it around is annoying. You don't have to do that much so it's hardly a big deal, but why not implement something nice to use? I dunno.

It has some cool gadgets - the 360 degree camera view works as well as BMWs. Kinda pointless as the car has good visibility, but it's a fine gimmick. In the future when that stuff can (in theory) be used for lane departure and obstacle avoidance it might make more sense, but those features aren't even available yet. The gigantic touchscreen is easy to use and easy to read. It's reasonably placed and doesn't seem to suffer from fadeout in the sun. No sunroof is available, so you don't have to worry about that effect on the display. ;) One foot driving is damned cool - I can see how some people would have problems using it, but it feels totally natural and works almost amazingly well. I liked the fully blended brakes on the 500e, but it's pretty obvious one foot driving is the better approach. I really wanted to try out an emergency stop, but the situation did not present itself and I try not to harsh on other peoples' new stuff. ;) Like the 500e, it's quick to low speeds - hit the Sport button and it's really quick. ;)

Overall, it's a fine vehicle but I still can't see, as a regular person, spending the money. If you need to drive far, a Cruze will feel and drive about the same and cost half as much. If you just commute or run errands, a more conventional electric will save you 20-25% and get the job done. Things might change as CCS/DC Fast Charge gains adoption and you could have a 400/500 or even unlimited effective range, but I can't see buying the toy until the charger is available. ;)

Drachen596
May 29th, 2017, 12:09 AM
Fwiw i believe 200 mile range to be a pretty good number for people. Assuming I'm not doing anything special I end up at about 150 to 175 each week for driving. Thats normal commuting plus running errands. 200 mile range would mean that I very likely could run the entire week without charging and just charge on my days off.

That said, I also can't afford an electric car due to price and crappy electrics in the house I live in. The other catch is I'm not sure how comfortable I would be in one. If the interior is like the current Ford Focus the answer is not very.

Godson
May 29th, 2017, 08:34 AM
Before my accident I was thinking very hard about a model 3, the numbers weren't there for me to make the jump.

thesameguy
May 29th, 2017, 09:14 AM
It's been a while since I have been in a current Focus, but I think the Bolt is bigger on the inside. It felt quite roomy to me. One thing I did notice is that the bolstering on the seats is optimized for people about my size rather than much larger people like most American cars. The seats felt pretty European to me. At 6'/180 they were comfortable with a bit of room to spare. Compared to, say, the CTSV would had lots of room to spare, making the bolsters not so useful to me.

I don't think charging it once a week makes any sense - just plug it in when you get home and walk away. Charging isn't cheaper on the weekends or anything, and if it's Bolt vs. other electric car, not plugging it in every night (for whatever reason) is a $10,000 premium. I'm not sure why once a week charging would be valuable.

I wanted to want a 3 as well, but I couldn't make the numbers work. $169 Fiat lease was great, and we almost did it again. There aren't that many genuinely nice cars at that price, and the fuel savings is adds value, but I think the lease on the Bolt is $329/mo and there are LOTS of other cars under that umbrella!

neanderthal
May 29th, 2017, 09:24 AM
Mercedes doesn't sell an electric vehicle? News to me. (https://www.mbusa.com/mercedes/vehicles/class/class-B)

And Subaru sells a hybrid. Or did.

neanderthal
May 29th, 2017, 09:27 AM
California does indeed have it's own GHG reduction program (https://www.arb.ca.gov/cc/ab32/ab32.htm)

neanderthal
May 29th, 2017, 09:46 AM
Regardless. I don't disagree much with the rest of it except it's still not a game. Just like paying taxes isnt a game, but people devise contraptions to not pay as much in taxes. They're gaming the system though, i'll give you that.

I think the problem with EVs is that a long trip requires planning ahead and charging, whereas in my car I gas up and go, knowing that I can gas up anywhere I need to and be on my way again in ten minutes or less. Unless I use Costco's gas stations in which case i'll still be waiting to gas up.

This presents an opportunity, in my eyes, for someone to step up with scalable battery architecture so that for everyday driving I can use, for example, two battery packs that give me 60- 100 miles of range, and if need be, i could add 2-4 more battery packs to increase the range. Of course they'd need to be charged beforehand.

VW makes the UP! in petrol, diesel and electric versions. There is a car that could be adapted perfectly to the scenario i envisage above. Small enough for normal errday errands, but with scalable battery capacity it could go longer as needed.

The problem will always be that charging takes time in comparison to fueling up ICE vehicles.

Crazed_Insanity
May 29th, 2017, 12:04 PM
Using your own analogy, regulations, like taxes, are not meant to be games, I agree with that, but I'm glad you also realize that taxpayers along with manufacturers could game the system to their advantage. That was my original point.

Regard to charging, you can charge at home without taking any extra time! As for long range road trips, teslas supercharging stations are already pretty good, but maybe the best thing to do is to be able to swap batteries... Or perhaps be able to tow either gas or electric range extenders around...

thesameguy
May 29th, 2017, 06:21 PM
Mercedes doesn't sell an electric vehicle? News to me. (https://www.mbusa.com/mercedes/vehicles/class/class-B)

They literally just released that, which I did not know, but illustrates the point: Mercedes was not required to meet the California 2012 EV requirement like GM, Chrysler, etc. were. Their EV is voluntary, just like many of the other brands. They know EVs are going to play a significant part in the future and not putting wheels on the ground now means playing catchup later. (Unless you're Toyota, in which case you're betting the farm on parallel hybrids and fuel cell vehicles which, you know, whatever).

EVs have limitations for sure, but they don't affect most people most of the time. But if you fall into that group of people that can't make one work, by all means don't buy one. ;)

neanderthal
May 29th, 2017, 07:10 PM
An electric motorcycle will suit me far better than a car right now. I still need my car for my monthly LA- Phoenix runs and even a Tesla can't handle that without a stop. With the bike I have an indispensable tool in LA traffic.
And I just watched a hare scramble with one electric bike participating. The Zero just walks away from errbody else and it's no stall electric motor has him chugging past everybody like they're amateurs.
It's nuts.

https://youtu.be/ke-3UuQycJM
I swear I used to know how to embed these youtube videos

thesameguy
May 29th, 2017, 07:22 PM
I really like the idea of electric motorcycles on many levels - because like 100-mile EVs that suit most people just fine, single-seat vehicles suit most people just fine, even if they don't want to admit it. ;) I feel like electric motorcycles are the ultimate expression of conscientious transportation. Hopefully something like graphene will help us improve battery energy density and make them a reality.

neanderthal
May 30th, 2017, 12:20 AM
I really like the idea of electric motorcycles on many levels - because like 100-mile EVs that suit most people just fine, single-seat vehicles suit most people just fine, even if they don't want to admit it. ;) I feel like electric motorcycles are the ultimate expression of conscientious transportation. Hopefully something like graphene will help us improve battery energy density and make them a reality.

This. The number of single occupancy vehicles on the road is staggering. And when you consider the popularity of SUVs and pickups you see just how much "waste" is going on.
But, I don't want to get sidetracked into comparing the fuel efficiency of something like a Murciealago with a Silverado. Just picking on SUVs and pickups as being the least fuel efficient. At least they (can be) more fuel efficient per passenger if fully seated. But that rarely happens, hence this post.

Did you scope out the video? It's incredible how instant torque works out in the real world, even when you're prepared for it.

thesameguy
May 30th, 2017, 02:53 PM
Definitely - although it's the most deceptive thing about EVs, since they are 1-speed transmissions... you have this surge of power from a stop, but it doesn't last. It's like driving a '60s muscle car. ;)

I imagine that production electric 2- and 3- wheel vehicles would be huge in China, where people are already accustomed to that type of transportation. Here, it's a bit more of a sales pitch but I think if performance and price are both there, people might consider them more readily than anyone expects. I sure hope so!

neanderthal
May 31st, 2017, 06:13 PM
Definitely - although it's the most deceptive thing about EVs, since they are 1-speed transmissions... you have this surge of power from a stop, but it doesn't last. It's like driving a '60s muscle car. ;)

I imagine that production electric 2- and 3- wheel vehicles would be huge in China, where people are already accustomed to that type of transportation. Here, it's a bit more of a sales pitch but I think if performance and price are both there, people might consider them more readily than anyone expects. I sure hope so!

+1

With their pollution and population density problems China should really be on the forefront of the electric vehicle frontier. With a more clairvoyant leadership they would have seen the writing on the wall vis a vis their smog problems, future oil supply, etc and really gone all in on BEVs. Problem is their electric generation capacity wouldn't be able to handle that many electric vehicles without burning more coal. But that's exactly why BEVs and solar go hand in hand. They make enough panels, you'd think...

Yw-slayer
May 31st, 2017, 06:36 PM
With their pollution and population density problems China should really be on the forefront of the electric vehicle frontier. With a more clairvoyant leadership they would have seen the writing on the wall vis a vis their smog problems, future oil supply, etc and really gone all in on BEVs. Problem is their electric generation capacity wouldn't be able to handle that many electric vehicles without burning more coal. But that's exactly why BEVs and solar go hand in hand. They make enough panels, you'd think...

I'm sure they are, and they have. They have other issues to deal with at the same time though.

FYI there are TONS of electric bicycles/mopeds on the Chinese streets in every major city.

thesameguy
May 31st, 2017, 08:42 PM
From what I have read, the biggest block to BEVs in China right now is that they might require any manufacturer who wants to sell an EV to turn over all the IP to the government. GM et al have zero incentive to try and sell an EV right now as doing so probably means the government will just steal the technology and turn it over to a Chinese company. That's all subject to change of course, but you can see why everyone is hesitant to try. If they fix that and guarantee retention of the IP, you know everyone will scramble to get 'em to market ASAP.

Yw-slayer
May 31st, 2017, 11:25 PM
I must ask if you have the source for that? I find that a bit difficult to believe, although it's not incredible.

Drachen596
June 1st, 2017, 03:59 AM
It's been a while since I have been in a current Focus, but I think the Bolt is bigger on the inside. It felt quite roomy to me. One thing I did notice is that the bolstering on the seats is optimized for people about my size rather than much larger people like most American cars. The seats felt pretty European to me. At 6'/180 they were comfortable with a bit of room to spare. Compared to, say, the CTSV would had lots of room to spare, making the bolsters not so useful to me.

I don't think charging it once a week makes any sense - just plug it in when you get home and walk away. Charging isn't cheaper on the weekends or anything, and if it's Bolt vs. other electric car, not plugging it in every night (for whatever reason) is a $10,000 premium. I'm not sure why once a week charging would be valuable.

I wanted to want a 3 as well, but I couldn't make the numbers work. $169 Fiat lease was great, and we almost did it again. There aren't that many genuinely nice cars at that price, and the fuel savings is adds value, but I think the lease on the Bolt is $329/mo and there are LOTS of other cars under that umbrella!

Fwiw i'm 6'1 or 6'2 and considerably heavier but the door opening on the 4 doors suck. once in its okay but I was still more or less wedged in if anyone expected to use the back seat. Its a huge change from the Crown Vic I drive for sure.

as for charging once a week, most probably would just plug in nightly but people like that safety of knowing if they forget they wont be screwed. my personal habits would probably make a Volt without the hybrid tech a viable option if its plugged in nightly. 40 miles is far more than i typically do in a day.


On the motorcycle side of things Lightning Motorcycles is supposed to be testing a 400 mile range one this fall. Downside? their current base model price would get you a Superduke AND an Africa Twin with cash left over for a Honda Interceptor.

KillerB
June 3rd, 2017, 12:15 PM
A couple things re: CAFE:

- The 55 mpg average is not based on the fuel economy ratings on the window sticker. For some stupid reason CAFE uses a completely different measurement system, with the result that 55 mpg isn't nearly as bad as it sounds.
- It's not 55 mpg for everything, and rather than cars vs trucks, there's some new formula that scales the requirement based o vehicle footprint (wheelbase x track or something like that) which basically means that the fuel economy requirements for larger vehicles are more reasonable, but small cars that don't get great gas mileage (i.e. Sporty cars) get hosed.

thesameguy
June 3rd, 2017, 02:38 PM
there's some new formula that scales the requirement based o vehicle footprint (wheelbase x track or something like that) which basically means that the fuel economy requirements for larger vehicles are more reasonable, but small cars that don't get great gas mileage (i.e. Sporty cars) get hosed.

Ugh, yes, this is the worst. Makes me wonder if the future of sporty cars is hybrids. The CR-Z was a disaster, but I could see how a hybrid Miata might not actually be so bad.

KillerB
June 3rd, 2017, 03:06 PM
Bullshit... it'd be TURRIBLE

thesameguy
June 3rd, 2017, 03:20 PM
Why?

Godson
June 3rd, 2017, 05:55 PM
Hybrid mustang: Killing cars and covfefe attendees with less burned hydrocarbons burned than before.

Crazed_Insanity
June 4th, 2017, 07:34 PM
If hybrid CRX doesn't work, there's no reason to believe hybrid Miata would work. Unless Honda really botched the CRZ? I'm under the impression that you just can't get the original Insight to maintain its efficiency and to perform like a sporty car at the same time..., but maybe Mazdas new space active technology can do better... ;)

thesameguy
June 4th, 2017, 08:22 PM
My limited experience is that Honda's hybrid technology sucks. I've driven OG Insights, Civic Hybrids, CR-Zs, and last-gen Insights are none are as smooth or transparent as a Prius and none feel as strong as the Fords I've driven. If we can get some lighter and/or denser batteries to keep weight gain down, I think that tech could easily make for a fun roadster. Like a 50% NSX - either a boost for the rear drive wheels or maybe some extra traction from the front. Either way, electric motors could make up for a small displacement/low torque/high economy main drive.

Crazed_Insanity
June 5th, 2017, 06:11 PM
50% NSX? That'd be a$70~80k car..., I'm unconvinced Honda can build a hybrid sports car capable of matching Cayman.

I'm also unconvinced that they can build a hybrid S2000 capable of matching the price and performance of a Miata.

Anyway, whatever their problem is, I think they need to 1st show me that they can win F1 races 1st.

Crazed_Insanity
June 5th, 2017, 07:30 PM
Anyway, enough about Hondas, let's get back on topic, have you spent more time with the Bolt? How do you like it so far?

I'm close to pulling the trigger on one of those EVs... Currently top runner is still the Volt, but if I can find a cheap enough lease, then maybe a Bolt or a Kia Soul EV... The new Hyundai Ioniq 'subscription' also intrigues me as well...

I kept on thinking all the new entries in the EV market should continue to bring down prices, but at least in SoCal, that's not really the case...

SCE has also kicked in a $450 rebate for all EV users now... So I'm really itching to get something...

KillerB
June 6th, 2017, 03:29 PM
Name one hybrid you've actually driven that produces on the whole "driving experience" thing Miatas are praised for.

That's okay, I'll wait. :)

thesameguy
June 6th, 2017, 03:44 PM
None have been attempted much less built, so that's a loaded question. All the hybrids thus far are either economy cars, land yachts, or hypercars. Nobody has built anything but. The CR-Z was supposed be that car, but FWD was not in its favor and, as I mentioned earlier, Honda's pedestrian hybrid technology is shit compared to everyone else's so it was doomed from the beginning. The press has great things to say about the NSX and the 918, so I think the capability exists - it's just a matter of whether that technology can be scaled appropriately. It may not be something that can be done now, but that's certainly not a reason to rule it out as a concept.

novicius
June 7th, 2017, 04:32 AM
Name one hybrid you've actually driven that produces on the whole "driving experience" thing Miatas are praised for.

That's okay, I'll wait. :)
It's been done.

"I can't believe how fast that electric Miata is, it beat most of the cars out here."
(http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showpost.php?p=353208&postcount=105)

I have to say that my favorite part of driving the car is the throttle control. If I came in too hot to a corner I could *save* it by hitting the gas and bringing the rear of the car around. The Soliton1 and the 9” motor just delivered exactly the torque I wanted, whenever I asked for it.


EDIT: Another one. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HqXiu6BH8C0)

Another one. (https://www.torquetrends.com/e-miata-finished-project)

Another one. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wk-NG2CzkNQ)

Another one. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3PK6U5mZe_I)

Another one. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aD09O1O5UpI)

You can be pedantic and argue that these aren't hybrids but honestly it's the electric motor + sporting Miata nature that everyone's concerned with.

These homebrew conversions show that an electric sports car can still be fun to most people.

novicius
June 7th, 2017, 04:59 AM
The CR-Z was supposed be that car, but FWD was not in its favor and, as I mentioned earlier, Honda's pedestrian hybrid technology is shit compared to everyone else's so it was doomed from the beginning.
...and yet there are *tons* of vids on YT of CR-Z gone autox so the owners are having fun, much to everyone else's rage & chagrin. :lol:

Suspension, brakes, rims & tires, folks. #shrug

Jason
June 7th, 2017, 05:08 AM
The problem with the CR-Z is that Honda approached it from the point of view as economy first, and sport second... and wasn't creating a sequel to the CR-X Si, but rather a base CR-X, imo.

novicius
June 7th, 2017, 06:25 AM
Yep and numerically-speaking, it was slower, heavier and less fuel-efficient than an Si.

Sold like crap over the seven years of North American sales (35K total), too.

thesameguy
June 7th, 2017, 07:28 AM
...and yet there are *tons* of vids on YT of CR-Z gone autox so the owners are having fun, much to everyone else's rage & chagrin. :lol:

But as you recently saw people also autox F150s, and I don't think you are going to suggest an F150 would be a fun alternative to a Miata.


Sold like crap over the seven years of North American sales (35K total), too.

Even the base OG CRX was fun to drive - it was well-balanced, had a small footprint, and was plenty tossable even if it was down on power vs the Si. The CR-Z was just a sportier-looking Civic Hybrid and brought nothing to the table. They took out space but added in no fun. It was a huge letdown.

The CR-Z and the F150 are both fine conveyances with their own useful attributes, but neither of them are what you'd want to enjoy a mountain road in.

novicius
June 7th, 2017, 07:43 AM
Not compared to a Miata, no -- but taken on its own as a 1-owner car, or compared to an Accord/Camry/Ridgeline/etc. (as a 2-owner fun car), the CR-Z is arguably fun.

It's like buying a shittier but cheaper HDTV: doesn't look as good compared to other better TVs in the store but once it's in your living room? Most folks won't notice/miss the fidelity.

KillerB
June 7th, 2017, 08:34 AM
Saying there's a huge difference between how a hybrid drives and how an electric drives is not being pedantic. Drive a Prius back to back with an electric car and tell me they drive the same. Seriously, I'll wait.

I HAVE driven both hybrids and electrics (Prius and Tesla Model S) and can confirm that they are totally different. Suggesting otherwise is being willfully obtuse, and you know better. Everyone knows that electrics have excellent accelerator pedal response. :rolleyes:

FWIW, I think a pure electric Miata would be a very fun drive. Just not a hybrid.

Kchrpm
June 7th, 2017, 08:57 AM
Comparing a Prius to a Tesla Model S isn't really fair: one is a fuel-economy focused people carrier, the other a BMW M5 fighting super sedan. Bolt vs Prius would be much more apt.

I'm sure the possibility exists for a light, tossable, communicative hybrid, but it would take even more engineering work than it takes to make an electric or gas powered one, and very few companies are even bothering to do that.

Crazed_Insanity
June 7th, 2017, 09:37 AM
I think LaFerrari or 918 are proofs that hybrids can be fun to drive. I guess the question now is can that be made affordable.

New NSX is just like the CRZ, somewhat missing the mark... Wish Honda could return to their former glory and create a 'LaHonda' hybrid sports car that is also affordable.

novicius
June 7th, 2017, 10:06 AM
Saying there's a huge difference between how a hybrid drives and how an electric drives is not being pedantic. Drive a Prius back to back with an electric car and tell me they drive the same. Seriously, I'll wait.

I HAVE driven both hybrids and electrics (Prius and Tesla Model S) and can confirm that they are totally different. Suggesting otherwise is being willfully obtuse, and you know better.
You're opening the door of this debate to hybrids/electrics in the six-figures USD? My bad.

http://press.porsche.com/media/gallery2/d/17793-1/2015+Porsche+918+Spyder+_1_.JPG

:lol: #YOUknowbetter

novicius
June 7th, 2017, 10:31 AM
The CR-Z and the F150 are both fine conveyances with their own useful attributes, but neither of them are what you'd want to enjoy a mountain road in.
Eh not everything needs to be an NSX. This guy thrashes his CR-Z @ the 7:55 mark in this vid:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BG01g2tH5BA&amp

He likes his little hybrid car and he rails it. :) What else is there?

Crazed_Insanity
June 7th, 2017, 11:02 AM
I think this CRZ mod further demonstrates Honda failed to unlock the car's true potential!

thesameguy
June 7th, 2017, 11:11 AM
Eh not everything needs to be an NSX. This guy thrashes his CR-Z @ the 7:55 mark in this vid:

Jesus man, I am not saying everything needs to be an NSX. I am saying the technology exists to make a small, tossable car with good reflexes and an enjoyable power to weight ratio - a Miata - that has a hybrid drivetrain. The 918 and NSX are evidence that the technology to make a fully-blended drivetrain exists - whether or not that concept could be scaled back at an affordable price point in 2017 is debatable - I simply don't know - but the capability does exist. "Hybrid drivetrain" is not a guarantee of no fun - it's a matter of employing the right technology and nothing more.

I am similarly not saying that the CR-Z is the worst car ever made, but I am saying it has an economy car drivetrain and behaves as such. It is not a blended driving experience. It herks and jerks from IMA to ICE at unpredictable speeds and every time you start to get into the groove of driving it reminds you that it's saving gas or whatever. Can you drive one fast? Sure. Is it a fun melding of man and machine like a Miata? No, it's not. People taking a car to an autocross or driving hard it isn't really evidence of anything. I've seen a supercharged Avalon driven in anger at Buttonwillow. It was fast, dude was impressive. But I wouldn't suggest an Avalon is a driver's car. The only reason I'd choose it on Highway 101 over a Miata is if I was bringing all my luggage. Same with the CR-Z.

Man, I did not think this sentiment was so complex! :lol:

Kchrpm
June 7th, 2017, 11:14 AM
Man, I did not think this sentiment was so complex! :lol:

Welcome to disagreeing with Carlo :D

thesameguy
June 7th, 2017, 11:19 AM
I don't know that we disagree, I think we're having different conversations! :lol:

novicius
June 7th, 2017, 11:20 AM
"Hybrid drivetrain" is not a guarantee of no fun - it's a matter of employing the right technology and nothing more.
Uh I fully agree with you -- you're misreading me.



Is it a fun melding of man and machine like a Miata? No, it's not.
As a guy that can't feel shit and can't drive, I don't know what you're talking about here. Not everyone can feel that meld.

For those who can, awesome -- for those of us who can't then the engineering bar isn't as high, that's all.

thesameguy
June 7th, 2017, 11:24 AM
And that's why Honda only sold 35,000 CR-Zs! :finger:

novicius
June 7th, 2017, 11:29 AM
I'm not trying to rile you up, TSG. I fully get that CR-Zs catch a lot of hate from enthusiasts, its been that way since Day 1.

thesameguy
June 7th, 2017, 11:41 AM
I know - no worries! :)

thesameguy
June 11th, 2017, 12:00 PM
My dad reports a 190 mile (roundtrip) ride in the Bolt. Showed 80 miles remaining upon return. All freeway, cruise control at 65mph. Time off the freeway (getting to, returning to, etc.) amounts to about 8 miles. No traffic, windows cracked, no AC, fan on, one hour of headlights.

Crazed_Insanity
June 11th, 2017, 03:36 PM
Impressive range!

If he turned the AC on, then maybe he could match the shorter advertised range! ;)

Jason
June 12th, 2017, 09:12 AM
I thought running A/C on a highway used less gas (energy) than having windows down, due to aero dynamic changes?

Kchrpm
June 12th, 2017, 09:15 AM
Windows down vs windows cracked, the results may be drastically different.

However, as previously said, electric cars don't work as hard to run A/C as gas cars due, because there's less heat in the system for them to overcome.

thesameguy
June 12th, 2017, 09:22 AM
And I suspect there is a LOT of aero work done on the Bolt that conventional cars don't have that may be a bigger offset. There is also some math to be done about ICE's adding a compressor to a wasteful equation and an EV with almost no waste adding the consumption of a compressor. Too much for me to handle!

Crazed_Insanity
June 12th, 2017, 10:00 AM
Anyway, to solve this mystery, you need to tell your dad to close the damn windows and just turn the AC on and see how that alters the range...

I suspect cracked windows with no AC is more efficient than closed windows with AC, but then again who knows for sure... surely every car is a bit different.

thesameguy
June 12th, 2017, 10:27 AM
He will. It was a mild day and he wouldn't have run the AC regardless. He wasn't hypermiling, just giving the full account. ;) Once summer kicks in for realz, the AC will surely be on all the time.

Crazed_Insanity
June 14th, 2017, 09:44 AM
Wife and I are getting ready to pull the trigger on 'subscribing' a new Hyundai Ioniq EV. Originally, I just want to lease the Volt/Bolt/Soul to take the load off of my aging S2000 with my commute..., but by subscribing to this new Ioniq, with no mileage limits and will even reimburse us the energy charged @ 18cents/kWh, I think this deal is just too good to pass up.

Subscription is $275+tax/mon. Wife and I spend about that much on fuel alone per month for both cars! The more we drive/charge, the more money we'll get back from Hyundai..., we could actually save money by going green!

The draw back is that I doubt this smallish base model Ioniq won't be as safe and comfy as the Santa Fe Sport for the family... oh well, time is tough... I'm all for saving money and saving the planet at the same time...

Crazed_Insanity
June 17th, 2017, 09:41 PM
Pulled the trigger but shooting blanks!

There are no Ioniq EVs at any dealerships in SoCal... :(

thesameguy
June 18th, 2017, 12:06 PM
It's a good deal, so kind of not a surprise there is low stock. That seems to be pretty typical of new electrics as they come out... except the Bolt, I guess. Give it a few months and they will probably end up discounting them.

Kchrpm
June 22nd, 2017, 07:12 AM
Saw a Bolt on the road yesterday, didn't get a long look but I don't think they were dealer plates. Either way, they're here!

novicius
July 11th, 2017, 09:49 AM
Meanwhile prices on used Gen 1 Volts are getting pretty reasonable. :up:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TW8ssIWt2pw


My advice:


Engage Mountain Mode on the way to the event and between runs. This will allow you to make runs on your battery and have the engine running for longer periods at a time.
When running, use Low gear and Sport mode.

Godson
July 11th, 2017, 10:31 AM
That video belongs to Rodney Giebel. He in my local region and a pretty good friend of mine.

novicius
July 11th, 2017, 10:41 AM
Cool -- small world! :)

I was just looking up used Volts earlier this morning hence my post. No longer need the Exploder without a travel trailer to tow so maybe next year I'll sell it for something else.

Godson
July 11th, 2017, 12:31 PM
Neat. If you have any questions, I can get you in touch. He is an excellent resource on cars.

novicius
July 12th, 2017, 04:17 AM
A few of his posts have come up on at gm-volt.com. ;)

Looks like Whiteline makes some suspension bits for them, and there's a decent selection of rims available... :up: :up: #hmm

thesameguy
July 12th, 2017, 06:19 PM
Not exactly the right place, but local VW dealer is advertising eGolf leases for $70/mo with $4k due up front. Not bad.

Yw-slayer
July 12th, 2017, 07:17 PM
I, like I suspect most people, am looking forward to see what BMW comes out with as regards this rumoured "full-electric" 3-series.

thesameguy
July 13th, 2017, 08:24 AM
A coworker just got a 330e and it's solid - I imagine 3e would truly be something worth getting excited about!

Crazed_Insanity
July 13th, 2017, 12:19 PM
330e can only go for 14miles on a full charge!?!?!? And it's already at about the same price range with Model 3...

Currently the smallish i3 is already at about Model 3 price range. I can't imagine a full EV 3-series with more lithium ion batteries becoming cheaper...

But anyway, more the merrier.

thesameguy
July 13th, 2017, 07:41 PM
Might not be cheaper, but when the Feds kick in $7500 things do get weird....

Crazed_Insanity
July 14th, 2017, 10:12 AM
Hmm..., if you want a BMW and get a $7500 discount, I suppose it's a pretty good deal...

But I just want a cheap reliable transport. No BMW for me!

Kchrpm
July 18th, 2017, 11:29 AM
Cross-posting in both the Bolt and Tesla threads, because of relevance to both.

http://jalopnik.com/chevrolets-tesla-killer-isnt-selling-very-quickly-1797023765


But here we are, with the Model 3 having nearly 400,000 preorders still hanging around waiting for a delivery and less than 8,000 already-available Bolts being bought in seven months.

Thus, the storyline continues: Tesla can’t make enough cars, whereas everybody else is just making too dang many—no matter how hard everybody else tries to compete.

thesameguy
July 18th, 2017, 03:26 PM
Monday 7/17.2017 we drove from home to your sister's place, went to lunch about 8 miles away (round trip) and then drove home. That was a total of 182 miles.

In Walnut Creek we plugged the car into a free Level 2 charger for two hours while eating lunch which added 26 miles of range to the battery. (Charge was started when the remaining range was 164 miles; when we pulled the cable the remaining range was 190 miles so, it was not a 40 AMP charger... maybe half that.)

The entire trip was made with the AC on (dashboard thermometer readout was never under 89° and got up to 102°). The "usual" speed on the speedometer was 65 MPH. Frequently we hit 70-72 MPH when keeping up with traffic.

When we got home the range meter said the remaining range was 108 miles.

If we'd not recharged the car in Walnut Creek we'd have arrived home with 72 miles on the meter (which means with hot weather, AC on and freeway driving the range is 254 miles).

To replace the missing 44.5 kWh in the battery electricity will cost $3.15 (at $0.0716/kWh) or about a gallon of gas. According to the onboard display it will take 7hr 30min to fully recharge the battery.


It's like 182 miles per gallon!

IIRC they have a 30a 240v charger. It might be 40a, but I don't think it is.

Crazed_Insanity
July 18th, 2017, 03:33 PM
How come your dads electricity rate is so low? 7cents/kWh? SCE has lowest EV rate at 14cents! So even with that figure, your dad's doing 90 mpg! :up:

thesameguy
July 18th, 2017, 03:59 PM
I dunno.. Sacramento has good EV rates? Our rate with the 500e was .0836 ... not sure what allowed it to drop another penny.

Crazed_Insanity
July 18th, 2017, 05:32 PM
With rates so low, wouldnt it be harder to justify solar panels? Do you see neighbors going solar at all?

If you could manage to get that Hyundai Ioniq subscription, you'll be earning money as you charge. I think they are reimbursed at 18 cents/kWh charged!

Random
July 18th, 2017, 07:19 PM
SMUD has a special TOD rate for EV charging.

thesameguy
July 18th, 2017, 07:47 PM
With rates so low, wouldnt it be harder to justify solar panels? Do you see neighbors going solar at all?

If you could manage to get that Hyundai Ioniq subscription, you'll be earning money as you charge. I think they are reimbursed at 18 cents/kWh charged!

Not many of my neighbors have solar, but it's an older neighborhood with older people. In general, a fair amount of solar in and around Sacramento and in the general area. We are saving right now for a re-roof+solar+HVAC project - we'd be the second people in the neighborhood with solar.

Crazed_Insanity
July 19th, 2017, 09:14 AM
Wow! SMUD is really awesome... you guys probably have the lowest rates in the country! Good thing you're taking advantage of it with an EV!

Anyway, if I have your utility rate, I'm pretty sure it'll be difficult to justify my solar panels even with tax credit. One has to really want to go green to pull the trigger with those rates.

thesameguy
July 19th, 2017, 09:51 AM
SMUD is great. Hard to believe it's a public non-profit, right?

balki
October 8th, 2023, 04:49 PM
If my math is right, a Bolt can be had for close to $20k new after the $7,500 tax credit ... about $13k less than the cheapest Tesla. Tempting.
I recall hearing a lot of good things about the Bolt in 2017 ... anyone have 1st or 2nd -hand experience with them?
No range anxiety (need less than 100mi/week) ... but charging is boarding on a dealbreaker (live in an apt ... no charging by work, home or play).

TheBenior
October 8th, 2023, 05:55 PM
If you don't have charging at work or at home, the Bolt's relatively slow charging speeds would be rather difficult to deal with (https://insideevs.com/news/613786/chevrolet-bolt-ev-fast-charging/).

Crazed_Insanity
October 8th, 2023, 11:14 PM
No experience with Bolt. My only concern is that you’ll be buying an out of production car.

My EV experience has been that they can typically go 3 miles/kWh. 100 miles means you’ll need 33.3 kWh every week. Bolt should be able to quick charge to 80% of 65 kWh battery in < 1 hr. Tesla superchargers should also soon be available to GM cars… so charging shouldn’t be a problem.

However I’d get auto insurance quotes before pulling trigger. EV insurance cost will likely be higher than regular cars. Don’t be surprised after the fact!

Phil_SS
October 9th, 2023, 07:42 AM
Why is EV insurance more? Because of the risk of fire to a home if it is parked in a garage? If Balki doesn't have a home/garage then it shouldn't be more expensive.


I heard that too, bit I just did a quote, it's basically the same as my old Honda ICEs (both out of production).

Charging speed isn't as much a concern as charging availability. Most reasonable options involve walking a mile... wait, is it reasonable to leave an EV charging in the open and not babysitting it? In terms of electrical safety and vandalism?

Funny enough, there is a guy I work with and he has a Chevy Bolt and he parks it in a local shopping center parking lot to charge it. Like, I believe the electricity is free for people to use the shopping center so he just hooks it up and charges there, does some grocery shopping and then he drives the car for the week. His commute is only around 7-10 miles a day. He does not have a way to charge the car at work or at his house. His house is right by the shopping center as well, so he has parked it and walked home and then came back later after it was charged.

https://jalopnik.com/used-chevy-bolt-might-be-the-best-20-000-commuter-car-1850774000

And of course, it should be reasonable for you to walk away from your car while it is charging. Just don't be a douche and let it sit there while it is fully charged and thus take up the charging station from someone who needs it.

CudaMan
October 9th, 2023, 10:10 AM
I was in a Bolt Uber last night from the airport. It was quick, suspension was firm. The notable thing to me is it makes a bad Uber vehicle. The rear hatch area is so small I had to put my 3 bags in the back seat along with myself. And sitting so close to the rear wheels in a short wheelbase car wasn't the most pleasant ride experience. Front seat is probably way better.

Crazed_Insanity
October 9th, 2023, 12:52 PM
Why is EV insurance more? Because of the risk of fire to a home if it is parked in a garage? If Balki doesn't have a home/garage then it shouldn't be more expensive.



Funny enough, there is a guy I work with and he has a Chevy Bolt and he parks it in a local shopping center parking lot to charge it. Like, I believe the electricity is free for people to use the shopping center so he just hooks it up and charges there, does some grocery shopping and then he drives the car for the week. His commute is only around 7-10 miles a day. He does not have a way to charge the car at work or at his house. His house is right by the shopping center as well, so he has parked it and walked home and then came back later after it was charged.

https://jalopnik.com/used-chevy-bolt-might-be-the-best-20-000-commuter-car-1850774000

And of course, it should be reasonable for you to walk away from your car while it is charging. Just don't be a douche and let it sit there while it is fully charged and thus take up the charging station from someone who needs it.

My Honda Clarity EV lease deal was awesome! I was essentially using my gas money to pay for its low lease payments. The only surprise was the insurance cost. Every insurance company will be different, but I think main justification is the battery cost. Anyway, whatever car you buy, taking consideration of insurance cost is always a good idea. As batteries get cheap enough, maybe EV insurance will become cheaper in the future? However, premium EVs have huge battery packs. Imagine a big impact damages them... may very well total the car, regardless of how the frame is manufactured.

With regard to free chargers, yeah, I used to take advantage of them a lot at shopping centers. I think they're call Volta. Free level 2 charging at about 6kW per hr... so to get your 100 miles of range, you'll need to charge there for about 5 hours every week. Of course you're not suppose to hog the free chargers, but in LA, they're always busy it seems. In my new neighborhood, I think people don't like EVs very much. I've see lots of these Volta chargers not being used at all! Too bad I don't own an EV now! :p

balki
October 10th, 2023, 09:45 AM
Thank you, folks (especially Phil, went to edit a typo and my 2nd post disappeared).

The rear hatch area being small is a bit of a surprise ... Honda Fit is 28% bigger with the seats up (but the Bolt has 35% more room with the seats folded down).

I can certainly get by on a Level 1 charger if I had overnight or working hours access to one. I need to walk around the area (the charger apps I've used don't pick up all the level 2 chargers).

Dealership question: will they order a car for me without major hassles or markups? No new ones around (this fleet one with 44k is a maybe (https://www.truecar.com/used-cars-for-sale/listing/1GBJF1G0XK4123366/2019-chevrolet-bolt-ev/) .. actually like the lack of power seats)

Crazed_Insanity
October 10th, 2023, 10:15 AM
I believe EVs are the only cars discounted now thanks to Tesla's price cutting. However, if local inventory doesn't have them, surely dealers will add shipping charges if you have to 'order' them? So weird to have to 'order' an out of production car! :p

I was gonna encourage you to get that fleet one, but after a closer look at the photos, it's missing the rear bench seat!

If it runs, I suppose it can still be a good deal. Nowadays, it'll be difficult to find a car this cheap. After tax rebate, it'd be a sub $10k car! However, it's not like you really need this ride. If you wait longer, EVs will only get even cheaper and better. Car market also should be close to crashing... or coming back down to normal levels...

balki
October 10th, 2023, 10:24 AM
Good eye (I think) .. the rear seats just looked folded down to me.

Regarding the $4k used car credit, one of the IRS's rules is the below and I don't know what it means or how to verify (I can't sell the car before taking the credit when doing next year's taxes?):
Not have already been transferred after August 16, 2022, to a qualified buyer.

Crazed_Insanity
October 10th, 2023, 01:13 PM
Yeah, not too familiar with how the used EV tax credit works. You'll need to look into it further to be sure.

https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/taxes/ev-tax-credit-electric-vehicle-tax-credit



Used EVs now eligible

One of the most contentious issues with the older version of the EV tax credit was its exclusion of used cars. The IRA remedies this. Beginning in 2023, qualifying used EV purchases can fetch taxpayers a credit of up to $4,000, limited to 30% of the car’s purchase price.

Some other qualifications:

Used car must be plug-in electric or fuel cell with at least 7 kilowatt hours of battery capacity.

Only qualifies for the first transfer of a vehicle.

Purchase price of car must be $25,000 or less.

Car model must be at least two years old.

Vehicle must weigh less than 14,000 pounds.

Credit can only be claimed once every three years.



Looks like you can only claim this credit once every 3 years and sounds like the same vehicle cannot be 'claimed' multiple times? However, how the hell can we verify if it was claimed before? Will Carfax add this feature?

Anyway, that Bolt is missing the rear bench seat and had multiple owners... are you sure you want to chance it?

I'd save my money and find a more suitable one later.

Some are saying new model 3 are on par with Toyota Corollas now, if you factor in all the mark ups for new cars and EV discount wars, tax credits, maintenance cost and fuel savings...

If you are really in a market for a new Corolla, then I think you should consider a Model 3.

If you're not really in a market for a new Corolla or car, then just keep on waiting for a deal to come.

Car prices should be coming down soon...

balki
October 10th, 2023, 04:23 PM
Not too fond of the $4k used car credit that I may not get or disqualifies me for the $7.5k to 2026. Any used car is chancing it, but a dealership used car is 100% chancing it ... at least the fleet one is priced that way (it's still a long shot).

Wasn't on the market for anything but both my current cars had their cats stolen and their replacements (and oxygen sensors) won't pass inspection. Don't want to spend another grand or two on OEM equipment and hope they pass.
Also don't want to spend $5-7k for a beater that would go for $1-3k pre-chip shortage. Plus nearly all of them are targets for catalytic converted theft and I'd be back at square one.

That's how I arrived at the Bolt EV: $26k MSRP - $7.5k Federal credit and $2k State rebate and 4% less in sales tax so that's $10k off a very low-priced new car.
The Model 3 was the first thing I looked at, but its sticker price is $14,035 more (even with Chevy dealer markups the Tesla will be at least $10k more). Plus I'd hate to have nearly everything on the touchscreen (like most of the windshield wiper controls, wtf).

Crazed_Insanity
October 10th, 2023, 08:25 PM
I’d imagine model 3 is a lot roomier and with useable trunk and probably safer in a crash too. I’d gladly pay $10k more, but I do have the same concern about the touch screen control as well. Not a big fan of that.

Anyway, did not realize CAT converter theft is that bad there. Then EVs definitely makes more sense for you!

Lastly, I’m not sure if the 1 tax credit every 3 years applies to new EVs… something with looking into. I thought we can buy as many new EVs as we want and still take the credit! Especially for 2024, the credit can be applied right away before you get out the door of dealerships!

balki
October 11th, 2023, 06:11 AM
Oh, 22.9 cu ft of trunk space for the Model 3 (impressive) while only 16.9 for the Bolt.
There's usually 3 people in my cars but almost never 4 so one of the folding seats will be down.

As for the cats : certain cars (hybrids, Toyota, Honda, ...) has rhodium in them. An once of rhodium went from something like $1k to $30k in 5 years.
Apparently the thieves can get $500+ for each OEM cat from those cars. (sorry if this a duplicate post ... the edit function on the mobile site is all janky for me)

Crazed_Insanity
October 11th, 2023, 07:12 AM
:lol:

Yeah, I have deleted so many of my own posts trying to edit them on my phone! Now I stopped trying. If I absolutely had to edit something, I'll set the forum back to default style. Editing that way can be a bit harder to read on the phone, so zoom ins will be necessary, but at least it gets the job done correctly. After edit, then I switch back to default mobile style...

Anyways, Bolt is a decent EV at a decent price. Can't go wrong getting one. However, I just think that EVs will only get better and cheaper so if you could just wait around a bit, then you might spot a really good deal. At least wait until 2024 so the government can just take $7500 right off the price at the dealership, rather than wait til filing for tax return...

TheBenior
October 11th, 2023, 02:33 PM
16.9 cu ft of cargo space in the Bolt has to be measuring damn near to the roofline.

balki
October 12th, 2023, 05:45 AM
Don't like the sound of that. It looks to be slightly smaller than my Fit, which has room to spare for my needs.
The Bolt is +2" taller +4" wider and +7" longer than the Fit (and 1200 lbs heavier) but I can live with that.

billi, another strike against the Model 3 is that it's 21" longer than the Bolt which will be a nightmare as I rely on street parking 90% of the time. Street parking also means whatever car I have will get side-swiped (the Fit looks like I rode the guardrails around a turn a la Gran Turismo)

Crazed_Insanity
October 12th, 2023, 09:46 AM
Oh yeah, if you want convenient parking on the street... naturally Bolts or Fits are perfect for that.

However, you might be able to get some over the air updates that allow Model 3s to go find street parking themselves? And then you can just summon it when you need to go somewhere? Ideally if it can go charge itself, then it'd be the perfect car for you! Self driving and self parking and self charging might be possible for model 3, not Bolt! :p

retsmah
October 13th, 2023, 01:00 PM
My wife has a 2010 Honda Fit, I've got a 2014 Hyundai Accent. From what I can remember when I was looking at cars in that segment nothing matches the Fit for interior volume numbers.

However I think the difference between the Fit and it's competitors doesn't feel as significant as the numbers make it out to be unless you are:
1. regularly completely filling the car from floor to ceiling
2. you use the 'tall mode' on the back seats frequently
3. you are doing stuff that really benefits from the back seats folding completely flat.

The Fit is really practical, but the only thing I can think of that we've done with it that my Accent couldn't do is transporting large plants with the back seat in tall mode.

Crazed_Insanity
October 14th, 2023, 10:10 PM
All these comparing cheap EVs helped me discover an amazing deal…

I could lease a model 3 for 2 years at $250/mon!

I spend more than that on gas every month!

Can’t lease a bolt for that price either!

To be honest, I don’t really want to keep these cheap EVs longterm. This should be a nice opportunity to try Tesla out. Also, I’m assuming gas price will likely go up even higher in the next 2 years thanks to Middle East conflict…

Gonna talk to my insurance agent to make sure I won’t have any surprises there…

balki
October 15th, 2023, 04:33 PM
Saw that yesterday, too.
$250/mo for two years, $4,500 down and 10k miles a year. Go for it!

retsmah, the Accent is 5" longer than the Fit and has more room with the seats down. that's really good :up:
I haven't used the tall mode ibn the Fit much but do really like the seats going all the way down.

CudaMan
October 16th, 2023, 07:17 PM
The Fit is the most practical car you can get, possibly ever, when you factor exterior dimensions and interior volume (and flexibility with all the seat configurations).

retsmah
October 17th, 2023, 02:53 PM
retsmah, the Accent is 5" longer than the Fit and has more room with the seats down. that's really good :up:


I think the Accent hatchback is about the same length as the Fit, at least comparing a 2014 accent hatchback to a 2010 fit. There is also an Accent sedan which is longer (and I assume less practical!), I think that could be where the 6" longer is coming from.

But in any case, I agree:


The Fit is the most practical car you can get, possibly ever

But depending on how much you need 100% of that practicality I could see a Bolt working out fine. The truly fold flat rear seats on the Fit are nice though!


This is very off topic, but for those who haven't looked at Fits in depth: One of the big tricks it's got on interior space is that the fuel tank is under the front seats instead of the rear. That means there's an empty space under the rear seats which allows them to fold flat, or allows the seat bottoms to fold back into 'tall mode', which gives you a bunch of floor to ceiling space to put tall items. In their normal position you can also just put stuff under the rear seats.

balki
October 17th, 2023, 04:12 PM
Yup, even with the passenger seats in normal position there's a decent amount of (unsecured) storage space underneath them.
The first gen Fit (only 2007-2008) is also very nimble and responsive ... funnest fwd I've ever driven. Also comfortably seats 4 adults under 6'.

Ugh, now I'm thinking of ordering OEM O2 sensors in hopes that clears my CEL (240k miles, don't want to sink more money into it but it only needed a battery and oil changes for 5 years).

CudaMan
October 18th, 2023, 09:16 AM
I think I've mentioned my sister's long-lived Fit a few times here, but in case you hadn't heard, she bought her '07 Fit Sport brand new and currently has 517k on it. It hasn't needed anything major outside of maintenance and expected wear items (which would be many by this mileage, to be fair). They can go a long time.

I did not know the fuel tank was under the front seats. That explains it though! Neat trick. I wouldn't have suspected that since the front seats don't feel like I'm sitting up high. Must be a pancake tank. :)

Crazed_Insanity
October 18th, 2023, 09:54 AM
Whoa! 517k miles? That's 32k miles/year! Unbelievably impressive.

I had lost faith in Honda ever since my 07 made in Japan TSX had a VTEC failure and Honda refused to honor their warranty because they claimed that I didn't service the car... after providing necessary maintenance receipts, they still refuse to honor it... so I had to take them to small claims court to recover my repair bill. Of course they finally settled before having to send a lawyer to fight me at the small claims court... after that incident, I just didn't feel like buying another Honda...

Maybe I'm holding a grudge for an isolated incidence for too long... ;)

retsmah
October 18th, 2023, 04:58 PM
I wouldn't have suspected that since the front seats don't feel like I'm sitting up high. Must be a pancake tank. :)

I think part of it is that the Fit is overall a bit taller than its competitors, my wife's is like 3" taller than my Accent. It does also seem to be packaged very efficiently, it's a weird looking little tank. I don't want to go against your views as a professional driver, but my wife did say that she liked the Fit over the Fiesta because she felt like she was sitting higher! :)

We're on totally the opposite end of the mileage spectrum, her 2010 Fit is just over 80k miles. We put less than 3k miles on it last year, I'm working on a setup to bring our dog with me on our ebike so I can reduce that to like 1000 miles/year and we can keep the car until you can't buy gasoline anymore. I do an oil change once a year regardless of mileage, it's the only car I've ever drained the oil on and it looks pretty clean!

Maybe this is sort of on topic, because it would be nice if the Fit EV was a real EV that you could buy, and the Bolt is the closest thing we've got.

balki
October 18th, 2023, 06:24 PM
517k .. Jesus .. H ... Christ
That's crazy. Thank you for mentioning here (didn't know).
I get that it's a light-weight car but damn ... that little 1.5L is stout (the only +500k mile engines that I've heard of are at least 2x as big and severely under stressed).

balki
October 19th, 2023, 05:38 PM
I think I've mentioned my sister's long-lived Fit a few times here...
searched the 23 page, 1,357 post thread (only one that the board's search function came up with) and only a brief story on how the front brake pads fell out on a bumpy dirt road (post 540).
I need more stories than that. I demand more than that!

CudaMan
October 20th, 2023, 12:12 PM
Haha. I don't have many good stories from that car. We replaced the dampers once, I forget the mileage. She did have another weird front brake thing when she put her latest set of front brakes on. Something about the pad getting stuck on the rotor for a bit before it freed up with a loud noise, if I recall. My theory was it had to do with the black coating on that set of rotors (which included the friction surface). Oh, there was the deer that ran out in front of the car a couple months ago. It needed a new radiator and condenser after that, and she had her friend who does bodywork hammer the core support straight and get the hood to latch again. A junkyard headlight replaced the broken one, and the car is back on the road, dented hood and all.

Yw-slayer
October 20th, 2023, 04:34 PM
Wow at the mileage on that Fit. Salute!!

balki
November 4th, 2023, 07:04 PM
Ordered a 2023 Bolt at MSRP, the dealer said 4-6 weeks for delivery.
I am happy.

Crazed_Insanity
November 5th, 2023, 07:40 AM
Hopefully you can pick it up in 2024 so that you can deduct $7500 right away rather than wait for tax refund.

balki
November 5th, 2023, 05:16 PM
That's what I'm hoping for, plus there's an assembly bill in my state that would eliminate the $2400 sales tax (even if it passes, I doubt it'll happen in time anyway).
I go the base model, wouldn't be surprised if it came in a few weeks (folks last year waited 6-9 months for their builds).

No matter what, I'm happy and didn't want to take the risk of missing the order window (the next Bolt is 2+ years away, the Equinox EV is nearly $10k more and the base Model 3 is $14k more).

Add to that: I just tried to change my Element's air filter but couldn't because the bolts/screws holding the intake plumbing together are rusted shut.
I'll miss performing minor maintenance but not dealing with rust issues (not that an EVs immune to rust, but there's just so much less to rust).

Crazed_Insanity
November 6th, 2023, 06:56 AM
Main reason I don’t want to buy an EV is because battery replacement cost can often cost as much as the new car! I also don’t want to buy an out of production car. Future of Bolt is kinda in a limbo state?

Anyway, with the tax credits, you’re getting a great deal. I suppose you’ll have 8 years and 100k miles to worry about the batteries that thanks to the GM battery warranty.

Look forward to hearing your adventures with this fun little car!

balki
November 6th, 2023, 11:05 AM
Thanks.
Yeah, got it for under $30k out the door, should be getting the full $7,500 from Uncle s Sam next year.

Would have preferred a really used Fit (like 2007-2008), but they've gone from $3k up to $7k.
Slightly used Fits (3-4 years old) are going for $20k (when their MSRP were less than that while brand new)

balki
November 6th, 2023, 11:17 AM
Oh, yeah.
The Bolt is done next month (they'll have made the 2023 model year for 18 months).
New Bolt is confirmed, probably in 2025. Should be very similar to the 2017-2023 version with a cheaper battery.

Not concerned with the battery, GM and LG handled the recall really well.
Being the last 7th year is production I'm hoping they ironed out all the major wrinkles.

Will certainly provide a full review if the car.
Do we have an EV-owners thread?