Toyota Supra

[Kchrpm]

Prototype in camo being tested on the road

http://www.autoblog.com/2016/09/07/toyota-supra-spy-images/

https://s.blogcdn.com/slideshows/images/slides/404/977/1/S4049771/slug/l/toyota-supra-4-1.jpg

https://s.blogcdn.com/slideshows/images/slides/404/977/6/S4049776/slug/l/toyota-supra-9-1.jpg


It has a long hood, doors with concave panels, and what appear to be fake headlights. The sides and back fenders channel the look of the FT-1 concept revealed in 2014 at the Detroit auto show. Put simply, it's the Supra straight out of central casting.

-------------------

Expect it to arrive for the 2019 model year, which is inline with the Z5's arrival. The powertrain lineup will likely include four- and six-cylinder engines, and perhaps employ some electrification (likely from Toyota's side of the development). Lexus is rumored to be supplying a twin-turbo V6 for the car.

[The359]

It's like a 370Z with ass tumors...

[dodint]

It's like a 370Z with ass tumors...

My reply was going to be "It's a 370Z with a Z4 Coupe shoved up it's ass."

[dodint]

Oh, shit. I didn't even read the blurb. I didn't realize the Supra/Z5 were the same car.

Damn it.

[Godson]

It definitely looks Japanese.

[21Kid]

Looks smaller than I expected... I didn't even know that Toyota and BMW had a joint taskforce.

[Freude am Fahren]

Promising...

[SkylineObsession]

Hate camo cars. Too hard to tell the shape.

I want the Supra to look like this, not like a BMW.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/content/dam/images/1/b/n/h/q/9/image.related.StuffLandscapeSixteenByNine.620x349. 1bngxp.png/1463425620105.jpg

Hurry up and show it Toyota!

You did a bloody awesome job looks wise with the new 86, please do the same to the Supra!

[Crazed_Insanity]

Fingers crossed!

[neanderthal]

It's like a 370Z with ass tumors...

And ass tumors are not attractive!!!!!!

[novicius]

It is such a different age now, I wonder how Toyota will keep this car from being stillborn. :|

[Kchrpm]

Seems like they're doing it by splitting all the development and manufacturing costs with BMW. It worked for the Toybaru, and this will presumably have higher margins + BMW's marketing and name cache clout.

(Based on what I perceive as the greater popularity of the Subaru vs the Scion/Toyota, going solely by our GTXF group, and BMWs popularity for premium vehicles vs Toyota's, this almost seems like Toyota has been contracted out to develop sports cars for the other brand, and part of their payment structure is the ability to sell their own version of the car as well. Too much of a stretch?)

[novicius]

Yeah but I'm not talking about the BMW version -- that shit will MSRP at $200K+ and wealthy Bimmer fans will buy them regardless of if they're Kings o' da Streetz or not.

But a Supra? There's really only one reason (and one vociferous group of non-new-car-buying enthusiasts) that people want it back: dick-size.

So that puts Toyota the Brand in a tough spot. If the new Supra doesn't run with Godzilla, isn't just another Celica? Only now it'll be a $100K Celica...

[Kchrpm]

Oh, I wasn't expecting it to be in that market at all. I thought it was going to be closer to the Stingray than the Z06, in broad price and performance terms. Never considered the $100k thing. Hmmm...

[dodint]

Oh, I wasn't expecting it to be in that market at all. I thought it was going to be closer to the Stingray than the Z06, in broad price and performance terms. Never considered the $100k thing. Hmmm...

Same.

Z8 MSRP was only $131k, similar to the i8. I don't see how the Z5 would be six figures, let alone the most expensive BMW ever sold. I mean, the most expensive BMW ever sold is a rebadged Toyota? lulz

[The359]

I agree, I think Toyota is aiming for something around $50k. Anything above that would be Lexus RC-F and LC territory.

[novicius]

So that puts Toyota the Brand in a tough spot. If the new Supra doesn't run with Godzilla, isn't just another Celica?
They cannot make a car run with the GT-R with a U.S. MSRP of $50K.

A Supra that cannot compete with the GT-R is a Celica Supra not a H00PRA.

Ergo my original statement:


It is such a different age now, I wonder how Toyota will keep this car from being stillborn. :|

[Kchrpm]

But I think your first statement is wrong. Sports cars don't have to run with Godzilla just to be relevant, even sports cars from Japanese manufacturers. The world of new sports car purchases is not just a dick swinging competition, as much as magazines and brand-specific forums might want you to think.

Aiming for Corvettes/Caymans/base 911s is a completely reasonable proposal.

[Freude am Fahren]

Agreed.

And I would expect a Z5 to fill a similar slot the Z4 is leaving behind. Maybe slightly upscale into SL territory instead of SLK (SLA?), but not wannabe supercar stuff.

[MR2 Fan]

But I think your first statement is wrong. Sports cars don't have to run with Godzilla just to be relevant, even sports cars from Japanese manufacturers. The world of new sports car purchases is not just a dick swinging competition, as much as magazines and brand-specific forums might want you to think.

Aiming for Corvettes/Caymans/base 911s is a completely reasonable proposal.

But I think historically people expect a car with the name SUPRA to run with Godzilla (But really, until the MKIV was that even true?)

[Kchrpm]

With the gentlemen's agreement of the time, it's hard to say what any of the cars were really trying to do. To me, the GT-R jumped classes when it ditched its family car underpinnings and went for supercar territory in the latest generation. The Supra could make that jump, too, but I don't think the investment would be smart or justified when the car you're sharing development with is just going to be a sports car.

[balki]

$60k was the target price that was thrown out by their chief designer a few years ago ($100k it would be a Lexus, no?)

[Kchrpm]

This report from 2014 says the Toyota would be a hybrid, to differentiate from the BMW with the same basic engine: http://www.automobilemag.com/news/report-toyota-supra-hybrid-uses-bmw-power-droptop-version-possible/

[IMOA]

But I think historically people expect a car with the name SUPRA to run with Godzilla (But really, until the MKIV was that even true?)

No, they didn't, in markets which got the GTR it was seen as a step above. GTR's were expected to be running with, or in front of, a 911 turbo around a track, supra has never been expected to play in that space.

[novicius]

I was at the local Harbor Freight store yesterday. I was checking out the finest in Pittsburgh-labeled Chinese steel when I saw a guy wearing a black t-shirt that said "SUPRA" on it. I walked up to him and struck up a short conversation.

I asked him if he thought that the next Supra should be a $55K, 450ish HP, 12-second quarter-mile sports car (basically a Japanese/German Corvette)... or should it compete with the GT-R?

He wanted to see a GT-R fighter. #anecdotal

EDIT: This anecdote is not intended as proof of what a ToyoBimmer sporty car ought to be (and certainly not a prediction on what it's *going* to be).

On Friday Keith & I debated the topic back channel and really came to the conclusion that we have different opinions on what people are asking for when they say "Bring back the Supra!"

Keith can explain his position (I don't want to put words into his mouth). My opinion is that those people (forum fanboys and former MKIV owners alike) want a GT-R fighter.

I write this fully understanding Greg's statement but the MKIV in the U.S. was a different situation compared to the rest of the world.

[samoht]

Looks a sensible size, not too big. Like the curved doorline and double-bubble-ish roof.

Waist is a bit high, like with most modern cars.

Is the Z5 going to get front double wishbones, or is the Supra going to make do with McPherson struts up front?

V6 TT sounds good to me. It might all get a bit heavy with V6, turbos and electric motors, though.


Interesting - and much more likely to actually happen than the mythical new Mazda rotary I really want.

[Kchrpm]

I think there's a segment of the Supra-enthusiast population that just wants the brand name they like to come back as an all-conquering hero for bragging rights. I don't know how many of those people can or would buy a brand new $110k+ car.

It's similar to the mid-engined Corvette argument, IMO. Yes, there are Corvette fans out there that want a mid-engined Corvette, not just journalists. But have they thought through what it really means? Have they realized that a mid-engined, small block powered car is likely going to start close to 6 figures with the LT1 engine? Do they understand the size of the market they are leaving behind if they have that car and get rid of the FR car and its price range?

But perhaps the answer for both the Corvette and Supra is "both"! Make the MR Vette a new model, alongside the Stingray, Grand Sport and Z06, and have a 6-figure, AWD w/vector blah blah Supra TRD.

[MR2 Fan]

It's also similar to MR2 fandom. When the MKIII came out, a lot of people didn't like it, because it was much more like the MKI than the MKII (not to mention questionable styling). Most people want a resurrection of the MKII MR2 if Toyota does bring it back again

[dodint]

If we're filling out a wishlist I too would like the Z5 to compete with the GTR. Easy for me to say because I'm not in the market for a Z5 at $60K or $160K.

[novicius]

So coming back to the real world, I realize I'm behind the times but how did the last BMW Z... 4 (?) stack up against the C7?

Can a Z5 deliver the goods? The base C7 is... formidable.

[dodint]

Hahahaha

[novicius]

I'll take that as a 'No' then.

[dodint]

Z4 was never marketed as more than a trophy wife's plaything was it? The Z4M Coupe is one of my favorite of all time but I never really considered it as competition for anything like the C7 or even a tarted up Mustang.

[Yw-slayer]

Yup, it's more like a techno-version of the SLK. Which in turn used to be a Boxster competitor, although none of them are really aimed at the same market. And clearly the Boxster (which is probably the sportiest out of the SLK/Z4/Boxster) is not really... comparable to a C7.

[Freude am Fahren]

Z4 was just a new Z3 if that helps. And yeah, like above pretty much Z3/4 = SLK = TT for years, and similar market but performance below Boxster.

It's debatable if Z5 would mean Z4 successor or not. I don't think so. I think the Z3 became the Z4 because BMW wanted to change from 3 to 4 for coupes, not just because 4 comes after 3. If the new one is Z5, I think that means a different segment.

[dodint]

Audi TT is the only car that came to mind when I was thinking of the Z4M Coupe competitors. I think the BMW is a better car by leaps and bounds but that seems to be the market segment.

[IMOA]

Would have to be a TT S to compete with a Z4M though, TTs are the very definition of a hairdresser car.

In Aus the supra was considered to be a Japanese camaro, not a Japanese corvette. Lots of power, not completely shit around a circuit and with some work and compromises could be really quick on a circuit but we're really about great gobs of power and 12 second quarter miles at 156 mph.

If you ask GT4 owners if they'd prefer the GT4 had the GT3 engine 95% would say yes. Doesn't mean it could have ever happened or that the price could have been remotely where it was if they did.

[dodint]

hairdresser car.



I was dancing around this term but avoided it because (1) I didn't want to offend the Miata crowd (2) I will probably own a Z4M Coupe someday and didn't want to have to backtrack this conversation.

[TheBenior]

In Aus the supra was considered to be a Japanese camaro, not a Japanese corvette.

That's how the Supra was thought of in the US at the time, which is why pricing the A80 Turbo higher than the Corvette (which had respectable LT1 power by this time) was part of the terrible sales results. There were a total of 11,239 US sales of the A80 Supra over 5 model years, or less than the A70 Supra sold in 1989 alone (14,544).

[Kchrpm]

That's how the Supra was thought of in the US at the time, which is why pricing the A80 Turbo higher than the Corvette (which had respectable LT1 power by this time) was part of the terrible sales results. There were a total of 11,239 US sales of the A80 Supra over 5 model years, or less than the A70 Supra sold in 1989 alone (14,544).
Hmmm, I hadn't taken that into consideration in my discussions with Carlo. Good point.

That definitely moves the bogey on the price range.

[Yw-slayer]

I was dancing around this term but avoided it because (1) I didn't want to offend the Miata crowd (2) I will probably own a Z4M Coupe someday and didn't want to have to backtrack this conversation.

It's cool, bro, just buy whatever you want.

[dodint]

A Miata it is.

[novicius]

That's how the Supra was thought of in the US at the time, which is why pricing the A80 Turbo higher than the Corvette (which had respectable LT1 power by this time) was part of the terrible sales results. There were a total of 11,239 US sales of the A80 Supra over 5 model years, or less than the A70 Supra sold in 1989 alone (14,544).
You have not done your homework on the origins of the MKIV, Ross. It absolutely was not a "Camaro-fighter". :rolleyes:

[dodint]

I love when novi gets his jimmies rustled.

[samoht]

According to CAR magazine, the photos up top are of a Z5 Coupe, not a Supra.

http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/spy-shots/bmw/bmw-z5-coupe-z5m-latest-spy-shots-pictures-and-details/

" this isn’t a disguised mule of Toyota’s mooted super-coupe. Besides the BMW-derived interior, this car – which is clearly based on the Z5 prototypes spotted previously – wears M4 GTS wheels and Munich plates."

Still super-interested to see what the Supra comes out as, tho. I'm assuming the two models will launch fairly close together, if Toyota were a year or more later they would presumably miss out on many sales.

[novicius]

I love when novi gets his jimmies rustled.
Damn straight they're rustled -- it's an incorrect comparison and a ridiculous statement overall.

The MKIV Supra was a redesigned Lexus SC 400, itself a lux coupe built to target the MB SL series. The program began in '89 and the keel was laid down in '91 -- any C4 available during this time would have been completely outclassed by the MKIV, much less a Z28.

The MSRP, power and performance was all greater than the LT1 C4's of its day. The big three car mags only compared it to the the other Japanese halo cars, Corvette and the Dodge Stealth TT (itself a rebadged 3000GT VR-4). I am trying to wrap my head around a world where this car would have been considered a Z28-fighter... just because it has a back seat?? :smh:

Cue my Lewis Black sputtering meltdown!! :angry: ( :lol: )

[Phil_SS]

I agree with Carlo. The MKIV Supra was never designed to compete with the Camaro. It was Toyota's answer to the NSX, FD RX-7 and Skyline GT-R. And in the US it was marketed and priced to compete with the Corvette, NSX and FD RX-7.

[Kchrpm]

I believe Ross was saying that the pre-Mk IV Supras were comparable to Camaros, and that the Mk IV Supra failed on the market when it attempted to go above that in performance and price. And saying the MkIV was better than Corvettes/Camaros when it was first being designed doesn't account for it the ones with the LT1 that were available when it came out.

Perhaps they were just trying to cover both markets with one car, but pushed the price too far up just as the sports car market was diving and were brought down with it.

[Kchrpm]

I agree with Carlo. The MKIV Supra was never designed to compete with the Camaro. It was Toyota's answer to the NSX, FD RX-7 and Skyline GT-R. And in the US it was marketed and priced to compete with the Corvette, NSX and FD RX-7.

But there was also a naturally-aspirated, 220 hp version. A 2+2 with a 220 hp version and a 320 hp version sounds much more like a Camaro than a Corvette.

But Chevrolet was the only one really attacking this market with two different cars*, everyone else had all of their sports car eggs in one basket until the Boxster/Cayman for Porsche, it may just not be a fair comparison at all.

*I don't know how the hell the 240SX fits into all this.

[thesameguy]

The origins of the c1990 Japanese sports car escalation are quite exciting. The '80s cars were all kind of swimming around in the middle part of the market with things like Camaros, but the Z32 300ZX dropped the gauntlet (maybe to distinguish itself from the 240SX) and the GTO/3000GT, the RX7 and the Supra all went nutso in response. You can't even really draw a line between these cars and their predecessors. They all jumped out of the commodity sports car pond and directly into the near-supercar pond.

The NSX was on a different track - its development started much earlier than the others with Honda always aiming at supercars. It may have been the thing that caused the 3000GT VR4 to exist, but they were never competition. The NSX was 150%-200% the price of all the others.

Somewhere I have a special edition R&T which offers a retrospective on these imports. It's probably a lot of speculation, but it does offer some neat insights.

[novicius]

And saying the MkIV was better than Corvettes/Camaros when it was first being designed doesn't account for it the ones with the LT1 that were available when it came out.


The MSRP, power and performance was all greater than the LT1 C4's of its day.
I already said the MKIV eclipsed all the LT1 cars of its day.

Not too be short-tempered about this but it's all history. The Supra was Toyota's halo car and it's never coming back as the legend it once was. That task is now up to Lexus' LC 500 F, whenever that drops. That'll be 600+ HP, $180K, yadda, yadda, yadda.

We ARE living in another automotive Golden Age, you just gotta have a net worth north of $500K to play.

[Kchrpm]

*checks old 0-60 times* you're right, over 5 second vs under 5 seconds. Mea culpa.

[Freude am Fahren]

According to CAR magazine, the photos up top are of a Z5 Coupe, not a Supra.

http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/spy-shots/bmw/bmw-z5-coupe-z5m-latest-spy-shots-pictures-and-details/

" this isn’t a disguised mule of Toyota’s mooted super-coupe. Besides the BMW-derived interior, this car – which is clearly based on the Z5 prototypes spotted previously – wears M4 GTS wheels and Munich plates."

Still super-interested to see what the Supra comes out as, tho. I'm assuming the two models will launch fairly close together, if Toyota were a year or more later they would presumably miss out on many sales.

It's kinda moot at this point in development Supra mule = Z5 mule I would think. Just as all the early 86 mules were basically BRZ's as well until they got down to the details.

[novicius]

I believe Ross was saying that the pre-Mk IV Supras were comparable to Camaros

If you look at the MSRP's ($25K for the Supra Turbo, $30K for the C4), I really don't think that's apt either.

In 1986 the Corvette was cranking out 250 horse. The Supra Turbo was boosting 230 and heavy but still loaded with advanced tech for its time: 3-channel ABS and adjustable damper settings. It was still Toyota's flagship -- an $11K 190-horsepower IROC-Z did not compete in this space.

[TheBenior]

I never meant to imply that the A80 Supra was designed as a Camaro fighter, only that it had the market perception as such while being priced higher than the C4 Corvette, which resulted in terrible sales.

By and large, the only way American cars from the 80s through the early 90s could beat their Japanese competitors was on size and price, so no, I'm not saying that Supra Turbos and Camaro IROC-Z had the same performance.

Just because a car has the performance to compete against cars that are perceived to be in a higher class, it doesn't mean that anybody apart from car nerds will care. And we don't typically buy enough new cars to support a unique platform. You can see this in comments about the Focus RS ($40K FOR A FOCUS!?!?), but the Focus RS gets to spread it's platform costs across a couple hundred thousand sales in the US alone, and it's engine development with an engine shared in some form with the Mustang, Explorer, and Mac.

[novicius]

That is your opinion that the U.S. market perception of the Supra was as a "Japanese Camaro". If you have a link supporting that opinion I will gladly read it.

Toyota designed, priced and marketed the car in the U.S.-only as a halo car. Car mags of the day only compared it to the Corvette. Supra owners & fans compare it to the Corvette (at least! :D ).

By no metric did the American market consider the Supra a "Japanese Camaro". :smh:

[TheBenior]

By no metric? (http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/1987-toyota-supra-turbo-road-test-review)


A car has to have the goods before it can play in the sports-coupe major leagues. The combatants in this arena include such potent performers as the Corvette, the Porsche 944 Turbo, the Mazda RX-7 Turbo, and the Camaro IROC-Z —cars fully equipped to devour any competitor that dares to enter the field of battle unprepared. In this fiercely contested market segment, superlative performance is essential to survival.

Sounds like Car and Driver lumped the Supra Turbo in somewhere along with the Camaro IROC-Z and the Corvette, between where it was in price. Back when significant numbers of people still bought them anyway (33,823 in 1986). A80 sales peaked at 3,405 in 1994. That year, GM moved 23,330 Corvettes with a 10 year old body style, 119,799 Camaros, and 45,992 Firebirds/Trans Ams.

[balki]

the moral of the story is we'd prefer a Celica Supra, MKI MR2, Cressida, AE86, new 86/BRZ, ... that we can afford to buy and maintain and drive closer to their limits, right? because no one here actually has a MKIV Supra or Corvette

[novicius]

So an IROC-Z is also a Porsche 944 competitor? ;)

Isn't more likely that the honorable mention of the mighty IROC-Z was due more to the legacy of the MKII Celica Supra at that point? By '89 the magazine you linked to compared the Supra Turbo exclusively to the Corvette.

EDIT: Even a MKII might not be considered a "Japanese Camaro" based on its original MSRP alone.

[Yw-slayer]

All this talk has gotten me looking at UK Corvettes.

[dodint]

novicius: Supra
dodint: DMC-12

We all have our causes I guess.

;)

[TheBenior]

Basically, all I'm saying, is that, regardless of what car enthusiasts thought, the Supra was not thought of as a Corvette competitor by the general public, which is evidenced in the horrendous sales of the A80, at least compared to the contemporary Mustang, Camaro, Firebird, Corvette, Z32 300ZX, 3000GT, SC300/400, and hell, even the FD3 RX-7.


Or it could've been the bland styling :p

[Phil_SS]

It was the styling plus people thinking: WTF! I'm not paying 45K for a Toyota! And it only has a V6! You must be joking! And it weighs how much!?!? And it only has 280HP!!!!!!! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA My F-body has way more.

[thesameguy]

There were a lot of pieces in play - and all of them came together to kill off all the Japanese sports cars in this country. None of them got out alive. Price, styling, equipment, and the seemingly sudden improvement of the domestic offerings changed the whole deal. The 3000GT and 300ZX had several years of sales before the MkIV and FD appeared to compete but the ship was already cruising off into the sunset. Those two never stood a chance.

[dodint]

Or it could've been the bland styling :p

I mentioned to Keith in chat yesterday that you can't make a halo car (MKIV) that looks like a mid-90s Eclipse. I wasn't going to bring it up but now that the door is open, there it is.

[TheBenior]

The 3000GT and 300ZX had several years of sales before the MkIV and FD appeared to compete but the ship was already cruising off into the sunset.
And yet the 1993-1995 300ZX still handily outsold the Supra, in spite of not being new (which is a big thing for sporty coupes). By 1995, the Supra Turbo was $6,000 more than the 300ZX, but in 1993, it was only a $1k difference.

[Godson]

Ad the 300zx looked as good as the 348 fezza.

[novicius]

Basically, all I'm saying, is that, regardless of what car enthusiasts thought, the Supra was not thought of as a Corvette competitor by the general public, which is evidenced in the horrendous sales of the A80, at least compared to the contemporary Mustang, Camaro, Firebird, Corvette, Z32 300ZX, 3000GT, SC300/400, and hell, even the FD3 RX-7.
What Phil said -- the general public thought it was a Corvette competitor just fine but didn't want to pay the price premium over the Corvette.

Also people just plain bought Corvettes because Corvette.

[novicius]

I mentioned to Keith in chat yesterday that you can't make a halo car (MKIV) that looks like a mid-90s Eclipse. I wasn't going to bring it up but now that the door is open, there it is.
No problem with me if MKIV styling kept buyers away. I'm not trying to argue it was a great seller, just that in the U.S. it wasn't a "Japanese Camaro".

[dodint]

I don't know if it kept buyers away. I don't have a problem with it. I just think the style is very close to that of a car that high school kids could afford which doesn't help things in the framework of "the new Supra should be halo car." If we're going to say that what happened twenty years should dictate what is about to happen, that's a factor.

I'm more inclined to say that what is going to happen has no bearing on the past at all, Toyota doesn't care. Any link to the past is made in the enthusiast realm.

Ask me about the LX Dodge Charger.

[novicius]

...and if "Does it look like a Camaro?" were a measurable amongst the general public, Ross' opinion might have some weight. :lol:

Unfortunately through the lense of past car reviews, data points such as car performance and MSRP's, as well as what little info we can find of the design teams' goals, it's much more likely that the MKIV's 320-horse mill and fantastic brakes were not enough to overcome the high sticker Stateside.

[thesameguy]

And yet the 1993-1995 300ZX still handily outsold the Supra, in spite of not being new (which is a big thing for sporty coupes). By 1995, the Supra Turbo was $6,000 more than the 300ZX, but in 1993, it was only a $1k difference.

The 1990-1992 Supra and RX7 were pretty boring looking and even underperforming vs their competitors which hurt the brand & momentum. All those last-round sports car shoppers got in on the 300ZX and 3000GT, leaving the FD and MkIV as late entries in a collapsing market. Too little too late.

[MR2 Fan]

It was the styling plus people thinking: WTF! I'm not paying 45K for a Toyota! And it only has a V6! You must be joking! And it weighs how much!?!? And it only has 280HP!!!!!!! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA My F-body has way more.

Ahem...I6

[Godson]

Ahem...I6

He was just acting like a commoner. :P

[Phil_SS]

Correct.

[MR2 Fan]

He was just acting like a commoner. :P

and I was just acting like a fanboy :p

[thesameguy]

Ya'll just acting the fool!

[Kchrpm]

Now with video!

http://jalopnik.com/heres-the-first-video-of-the-new-toyota-supra-in-action-1786859837

[dodint]

Sounds mean? What?

It literally sounds like a golf cart.

[Kchrpm]

http://www.autoblog.com/2017/01/30/2019-toyota-supra-illustrations/

https://s.blogcdn.com/slideshows/images/slides/442/080/1/S4420801/slug/l/supra-blue-1.jpg

[thesameguy]

I don't know what I expected, but that's kinda icky.

[MR2 Fan]

Those aren't official, so I'm not too worried

[thesameguy]

The GT just strikes such a nice balance of sports car looks, modern styling, and what I'll call conventional attributes it'll be a shame if the Supra has some wackadoo Toyota-inspired styling. Most everything they make these days is so ugly they damn well better keep those designers out of the Supra department!

[MR2 Fan]

The GT just strikes such a nice balance of sports car looks, modern styling, and what I'll call conventional attributes it'll be a shame if the Supra has some wackadoo Toyota-inspired styling. Most everything they make these days is so ugly they damn well better keep those designers out of the Supra department!

Though I'm a big Toyota fan, I agree 100%, some of their styling choices are very strange, especially Lexus. The Corolla is ok, and the new Camry is decent at least.

[novicius]

Wow that's turrible. :lol:

[Yw-slayer]

Could be better. See: GT86.

[Godson]

Fuck that's hideous

[Drachen596]

Looks a lot like the FT1 Concept they had.

Its ugly. Like some evil scientist forced a cross breeding between an Enzo and a GT86.

[novicius]

It looks like the stylistic details of the FT-1 grafted onto a BMW Z4.

Hopefully it's just some kid's atrocious render and the final design details will be better (and more subtle!). #fingerscrossed

[balki]

other than the hideous nose it looks fine...

... for a Camaro

[thesameguy]

Looks a lot like the FT1 Concept they had.

Its ugly. Like some evil scientist forced a cross breeding between an Enzo and a GT86.


It looks like the stylistic details of the FT-1 grafted onto a BMW Z4.

Hopefully it's just some kid's atrocious render and the final design details will be better (and more subtle!). #fingerscrossed

Truths.

[CudaMan]

I'm sure that's just an artists rendering and pure speculation, but what worries me is the proportions of the latest test mule. It looks like bodywork is near final production trim with camo on, and given the canvas they have I can't see it looking terribly pretty. But I hope I'm wrong.

[2ndMoparMan]

I am saddened by this. Toyota, you can do better.

[Drachen596]

Everyone wants to make something new and futuristic when in reality they could have made it look just like the old onr and people would be happy.

[MR2 Fan]

it says in the article that is FAN renderings based on the test mules, that's all

[samoht]

I'm sure that's just an artists rendering and pure speculation, but what worries me is the proportions of the latest test mule. It looks like bodywork is near final production trim with camo on, and given the canvas they have I can't see it looking terribly pretty. But I hope I'm wrong.

Indeed, the proportions are all wrong, really dumpy.

I saw the FT-1 model at Megaweb recently. It looks pretty good, not as lithe as an FD, still got that 'Supra' muscle going on, which is fair enough. If they made the FT-1, I think it would be great. However by the time they've spoilt the proportions to slap it onto a BMW platform, I think it'll look quite disappointing.

[MR2 Fan]

Indeed, the proportions are all wrong, really dumpy.

I saw the FT-1 model at Megaweb recently. It looks pretty good, not as lithe as an FD, still got that 'Supra' muscle going on, which is fair enough. If they made the FT-1, I think it would be great. However by the time they've spoilt the proportions to slap it onto a BMW platform, I think it'll look quite disappointing.

You bastard...I was at Megaweb in November and didn't see it :p

[Yw-slayer]

Cars like the 86 also look much better in-person than in pictures. Even the rims do.

[IMOA]

The standard rims on the 86 don't look good anywhere except the inside of a paper bag.

Unless it's the 16's which are awesome.

[Yw-slayer]

Nah, the standard rims are bearable in-person. The 16s I hate. But it doesn't really matter since it's inside where the action is. LIKE WITH MY TROUSERS.

[SkylineObsession]

Still think it needs to look like i showed in my last post in this topic; http://gtxforums.net/showthread.php?1614-Toyota-Supra&p=82355&viewfull=1#post82355

They did an awesome job with the GT86, they need to do better with the Supra.
Than blue fan pic above is disgusting. :(

[MR2 Fan]

and the question on everyone's mind, how will it look with an MKIV spoiler?

[XHawkeye]

The #GT86 will soon be joined by a new #Supra and an exciting spiritual successor to the #MR2 in Toyota's range http://www.evo.co.uk/toyota/gt-86/19033/toyota-will-produce-three-strong-sports-car-lineup …

[novicius]

:up: :up:

[21Kid]

A mid-engined flat-four, huh? Where have I seen one of those before???

[MR2 Fan]

:eek: I hope the MR2 looks good, not like the Spyder

[novicius]

:eek: I hope the MR2 looks good, not like the Supra
FTFY.

[balki]

which MR2 do you try to replicate?
The affordable convertible (MKIII) to go up against the critically acclaimed but low selling MX-5
The by-far-the-fastest (and most expensive) MKII turbo
The original (and still the best) and only sales success: the MKI

"simple and light" makes me think MKI, but the MKIII fits the same bill. MKII would seem to be out of the running, but everything is heading towards turbo ...

[The359]

The question is, what car company is Toyota going to outsource this car to?

[balki]

another reason for taking the MKI's direction : design the chassis, use parts from other existing (Toyota?) cars
Take the 1.8L from the Corolla and tune it to make more than 150hp (doesn't need to be much more)

[Freude am Fahren]

Well, even turbo, doesn't mean it would be modeled after the MkII Turbo.

I would suspect it would be marketed more like the MkIII, and it will be boring, but I hope they surprise me.

Speaking of, I saw a pretty damn good looking MkII Turbo yesterday driven by an older man with a big gray beard :up:

[Freude am Fahren]

The question is, what car company is Toyota going to outsource this car to?

Lotus? :D

[balki]

yeah, they should use Lotus' engines from the Elise

[21Kid]

:lol: The 1.8?

[balki]

yeah, that one.
they can then rebrand the rebranded engine.

[MR2 Fan]

The lightest MKII weighed just under 2,600 lbs., I know because I owned it :P

It wasn't too big or heavy back then and I think that weight is fine now, lighter than the 86.

Have a 2,500 pound car with the 180hp engine that was in the Scion tC (also Camry I believe, 2.4 or 2.5 liter) with updated MKII styling and you'll have a winner. Oh, it should be under $30K also

[CudaMan]

Some stripper MK2s were 2400lbs flat with light wheels and exhaust back in the E-Stock autocross days. :)


The question is, what car company is Toyota going to outsource this car to?

:lol:

-

Please let it be good. Please let it be good.

They have a lot of varations of MR2 to pull inspiration from. I suspect the most likely scenario is another light weight roadster, possibly with the modern day drivetrain stylings of small turbo and DSG. Time will tell. Who knows how far away this is.

[balki]

had a MKI, MK1.5, MKII and drove an MKIII, the MKII was definitely the porker of the bunch. It'll be very hard to make a 2600lb mid-enigne car with the Camry's 2.5L
MKII was by far the most acceptable style-wise to the public (and more stable than the MKI), but it's easy to forget how expensive they were when you're buying them used at 20% of original cost:

$13,270 : 1991 5.0L Mustang LX Sport
$15,448 : 1991 MR2 NA
$18,778 : 1991 MR2 Turbo

Expect for it to cost more than the 86, but if it gets past the Mustang GT's $33k sticker price without offering vastly superior quality and reliability (almost impossible in 2017) than it'll be a sales flop like the MKII was in the US

[thesameguy]

I tend to think they will slot it in the middle of the 86 and Supra as well - I can't see a scenario where they would introduce direct competition for the 86. That'd make zero sense. *Spec wise* it may echo the 86, but it's going to be 50% more expensive for sure.

[Freude am Fahren]

Yeah, I'd like it to be more of a poor man's 4C. Starting in the mid 30's, 250-300hp, under 3000lb?

[balki]

250-300hp from a 2.0L turbo isn't difficult these days, but keeping it under 3000lbs and $40k is another story.
It would be a winner in my book (no MR car will be a sales winner)

[thesameguy]

It'll be interesting to see whether they aim at Mk II MR2 or Elise... 2000lbs & 200hp or 3000lbs & 300hp. With pretty much nobody selling affordable mid-engine cars anymore there isn't much to draw inspiration from.

(Of course, they could always do something totally crazy like

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/9hbDygFDkFY/maxresdefault.jpg

Hey, the Yaris has turned out to be a pretty successful competitor!)

[Freude am Fahren]

By they way, I don't think Toyota said anything about it being mid-engined, or really anything related to the MR2, other than being a lightweight sportscar.


That means a new Supra, the GT86 taking the place once held by successive generations of Celica, and a spiritual successor to the MR2 in the form of a lightweight sports car. Tada-San expressed Toyota’s desire to have the trio in production together 'As soon as possible'.

I think the MR-stuff was just drummed up by journalists. I'd like to see the man's actual words. "Three Brothers" line-up doesn't mean MR-2. The part about hybrid power is interesting, but doesn't really fit in a lightweight sportscar.

I would not be surprised to see a Miata fighter in the low 20k range with 170hp or so, maybe 2500lb. There does seem to be more room above the 86 though.

[thesameguy]

Agreed about the MR issue, I just can't see how the 86 is anything but a lightweight sports car already. The only way to differentiate another lightweight sports car from the 86 would be to put the engine in the back. Or make it FWD. :assclown: I just don't think 30hp and 200lbs would do it.

Unless maybe they are thinking of something like an S660... like, really lightweight. But it's mid-engine too! :D

I'm definitely pulling for a production mid-engine Yaris. :D

[novicius]

I'm definitely pulling for a production mid-engine Yaris. :D
This would be hilarious -- and something my wife would probably go for (she loves her old Yaris). :lol:

[thesameguy]

Dammit. Realize now instead of "doing something crazy like a Yaris" the better suggestion would be "doing something crazy like a Crazy."

http://cdn1.evo.co.uk/sites/evo/files/styles/gallery_adv/public/images/dir_569/car_photo_284829.jpg

:smh:

[novicius]

Heh this info dropped two weeks ago. :P

BMW model codes include Supra (J29) with auto transmission, 4 and 6 cylinder engines (http://www.supramkv.com/threads/bmw-model-codes-include-supra-j29-with-auto-transmission-4-and-6-cylinder-engines.631/)


BMW model codes document (http://www.supramkv.com/attachments/bmw-toyota-supra-model-codes-list-pdf.1272/) lists both the Supra (J29) and Z4 (G29).

The Toyota Supra is listed with only auto transmission (see previous spy pics), and will come with 4 cylinders and 6 cylinder.

Europe gets two 4 cylinder models (represented by "20i" and "30i") and a 6 cylinder model (40i).

U.S. gets one 4 cylinder model (248hp?) and a 6 cylinder model (335hp?).

Admin Note: The document is a few months old and is of course subject to change (or addition).

As leaked BMW documentation acquired by good folks from SupraMKV forum suggests, iconic Japanese sports car’s successor will come with BMW code 20i, 30i and 40i engines. In other words, that’s:

2.0L B48 turbocharged straight-four (195 hp and 236 lb-ft of torque) – 20i

2.0L B48 turbocharged straight-four (248 hp and 260 lb-ft of torque) – 30i

3.0L B58 turbocharged straight-six (335 hp and 369 lb-ft of torque) – 40i

You can chalk the lower output 4-cylinder off straight away as it’ll most likely be offered exclusively overseas. This leaves U.S. spec Toyota Supra with two possible options; 248-horsepower turbo four and 335-horsepower turbo six.

Of course, new generation of vehicles almost always comes with improvement on final power output front so expect 6-cylinder 2018 Supra to deliver around 350 ponies.
I only have two issues with the car: I wish it was some kind of hypercar @ $150K USD, and I hope it looks better in real life. #uggo

[MR2 Fan]

so the BMW is officially a straight 6, but they're not sure if the Supra will be?

[Yw-slayer]

The beemer version looks good though.

[novicius]

LoL the Z4? I'm not surprised.

[The359]

Hot take: I like the original Z4 better. This new one looks like a blob.

[dodint]

Hot take: I like the original Z4 better. This new one looks like a blob.

Yes.

[XHawkeye]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DXl9M2WWsAAp7dL.jpg

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DXl9VNxW0AIcgcy.jpg

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DXl9VNYXUAAj9gq.jpg

The name and spirit of our most celebrated sportscar returns. Meet the GR Supra Racing Concept. #Supra http://toyota.us/2oDvVsh

[dodint]

No manual option for the new Supra. They say there is not sufficient interest.

[TheBenior]

Well, if it sells in Mk4 Supra numbers, that would be understandable.

[MR2 Fan]

again "manual" option meaning no traditional shifter, but paddle shift I'm guessing. the terminology gets so muddy now

[CudaMan]

Manual implies a third pedal and a driver-operated clutch, to me.


No manual option for the new Supra. They say there is not sufficient interest.

There will be sufficient complaints on the internet about the lack of one.

[Kchrpm]

Mostly by people who do not have the funds to purchase one new, or who think buying any car new is dumb.

[Rare White Ape]

Eh. It's 2018. High end super cars rarely feature old skool manuals any more, and to be honest they're probably better to drive with electronic manuals than traditional ones.

In my view, manuals are better suited to fun cheap slow-performance cars like MX-5s and GT86s.

[CudaMan]

It's not like there aren't any BMW manuals to pick from...

[dodint]

I was never a Supra guy and haven't been following this very closely.

Isn't a 'Supra' a car that, as a core characteristic of its essence, one that would feature a clutch pedal rather than entirely omitting it? My assumption is the Supra in this current incarnation is going to be sold as a luxury-sports toy rather than what the original Supra was sold as, and so the choice is made to ditch that core characteristic because the new demographic for the car probably doesn't care to row their own gears.

Am I close? My assumption is informed by stuff like TFATF, Gran Turismo 1, and the bits and pieces I've picked up here (wasn't there a weird 'Supra is the Japanese Camaro' ticklefight that we had recently?).

Bottom line, my idea of what a Supra is calls for it to have a manual option, even if it doesn't sell. Toyota thinks differently.

[MR2 Fan]

It's not like there aren't any BMW manuals to pick from...

which begs the question, will the BMW variant of the Supra have one

[dodint]

BMW is phasing stick manuals out of everything but the 1-series, MINI, and most M variants. Presumably this will include the new Z4 in stock trim.

[MR2 Fan]

solution: 86 with 2JZ swap

[CudaMan]

It's been done as a ~1,000hp thing. Completely useless car. It had so much lag that nothing happened at WOT for a long time until a near instant transition to massive wheelspin. Would have been much better as a responsive 400hp machine.

Unfortunately a lot of time has passed since the Supra was last sold here, and in that time manufacturers (and some buyers) have decided that manuals are old tech and inferior. The unfortunate side effect of computers so tightly controlling engines these days is that manuals need their own tunes which adds to the cost of development for any manual car now. A limited production high end sports car, it makes business sense to only put a paddle shift system in it which would be the most popular option anyway. With the LFA and FR-S, Toyota/Lexus seemed to be doing something really cool which was to make numbers and specs less important than the driving experience. We'll see if the Z4upra can live up to that standard as a real driver's car.

[MR2 Fan]

I know, there's several 86 to 2JZ swaps out there....and I agree I'd much rather have a 400hp one. The idea of that much power in such a small car though (I know there's smaller cars with bigger engines, but I'm personally relating since I still own my 86 :P )

[Rare White Ape]

I was never a Supra guy and haven't been following this very closely.

Isn't a 'Supra' a car that, as a core characteristic of its essence, one that would feature a clutch pedal rather than entirely omitting it? My assumption is the Supra in this current incarnation is going to be sold as a luxury-sports toy rather than what the original Supra was sold as, and so the choice is made to ditch that core characteristic because the new demographic for the car probably doesn't care to row their own gears.

That’s the romanticised, rose-tinted view on the Supra. But the demographic that maintained that view (new Supra buyers back in the 90s) is now 20 years older and Toyota has to try and sell a car to them. They’ve got good careers and their kids have moved out, so they’re flush with cash and have plenty of options available to them.

[MR2 Fan]

The MKIV Supra had amazing potential and looked awesome....from the back. I always thought it looked too heavy and the front end was never great looking IMO. I love it for what it meant as a Toyota halo car, but also meant the MKII MR2 was considered lower tier, even though IMO it isn't...it may have also meant used MR2 prices have stayed relatively reasonable for a long time at least.

[CudaMan]

Having driven a stock MKIV Supra TT 6spd off and on the past few months, admittedly a Targa with worn out suspension etc, it's definitely more of a grand tourer feeling on the street. I think when pushed harder it likely comes alive more, but I didn't do that. The MK2 MR2 is more constant fun. It's a little hard to explain. The limits of the Supra are higher, its out of the box performance and potential performance are far greater, but it's less connected at normal speeds. Still a great car, and a legend. It was so mechanically excellent for its time, with big power for the day and the ability to use it.

I think kids who were growing up when the MKIV Supra was new, like me, are also in a position to buy this new car (not me), and it represents something a little different to them than perhaps the original 90s buyers.

[Freude am Fahren]

I always saw the Supra as more of the GT, the RX-7 and NSX as the hardcore sportscars, and the GT-R as middleground, jack of all trades.

[SkylineObsession]

Well i've driven R32 and R33 GT-R's, a turbo Series 4 RX-7 (my brothers old one), a non turbo Supra SZ (my other brothers one), many turbo and non turbo non GT-R Skylines, and out of them obviously the GT-R's feel the sportiest/best suited to having fun on the track/road.
Then it would be the turbo Skylines, then i'm not sure as i've had limited seat time in the Supra and RX-7. I"m inclined to say the non turbo Skylines would be best next, but i'm probably biased since mine handles so well compared to a stock one.

Completely making assumptions here, but in reality i still think the GT-R's would come out on top, then probably a turbo Mk.IV Supra in a very close tie with the series 5/6/7/8 RX-7, then the turbo non GT-R Skylines.

Impressions wise:
- The GT-R's and some of the turbo/non turbo modified Skylines i've driven all feel very sporty and nimble with more than decent 'push back in seat' factors. And the sound... :eek:

- The Mk.IV Supra feels big (probably not helped by the fact you sit so low in it) with a long front on it, but i'm guessing it could go pretty well around corners when driven faster. Non turbo obviously has a very linear power delivery, but it still felt reasonably quick. Probably as quick as my turbo Skyline before the turbo rebuild (it's been rebuilt with a stronger mid section, which has more higher/mid range torque), but we're going to find that out one day... :twisted: It is quicker than my red non turbo Skyline, as i tried getting away from him on a straight once and he just stuck right behind me.

- The S4 turbo RX-7 also strangely had a very linear pull, almost like it wasn't a turbo at all. But my brother once raced it against Dad in my turbo Skyline and they were neck and neck apparently until the Skyline blew its head gasket. Both cars were pretty much stock standard. From memory it felt more nimble than the Supra, like it wasn't as big/cumbersome.

So going by all that long windedness, i'd probably almost agree that the Supra is more relatable to a tourer than a dedicated sports car. Or maybe i just need more seat time in one. Looks wise, it still looks fricken cool and is second place to Skylines to me (S5 etc RX-7 being third).

[Godson]

FD rx7 is the sportiest out of them all. Also the lightest by a fair amount too.

I personally think it's the prettiest as well.

[TheBenior]

FD rx7 is the sportiest out of them all. Also the lightest by a fair amount too.

I personally think it's the prettiest as well.

QFT

[CudaMan]

I hadn't been in one until recently. I've since driven two. They're *tiny* inside. But they're oh so fun. Especially the one that had '99-spec turbo stuffs on it and sticky tires. Really high limits and very rewarding to drive.

[samoht]

I haven't driven enough of the others to really comment, but the FD certainly feels every inch the sports car to me. In some ways it's like a "Miata plus", almost as small inside but with a bit of a wider track. It's very responsive to steering, brake and throttle inputs, partly due to the short wheelbase perhaps, great turn-in, very balanced. I think the Mazda guys had very different goals for the FD compared to the FC, and went all-out to make it a sports car.

In theory, the Z4 descends from the Z3, which was BMW's response to the first Miata. So a Supra based on that two-seat roadster platform should have the potential to be smaller and lighter than the original, more like an FD, but reliable. However the current Z4 is apparently a bit of a porker and more of a cruiser than a roadster, so I'm not holding my breath. And even the FT-1, which is a great looker, is visually quite a bit more massive than the FD.

[XHawkeye]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DlVkeUqU8AAB-bZ.jpg

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DlVlBLRUwAEykv4.jpg

Looks like a small 6 series (F12)

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DlTUMuoXoAAMBup.jpg


Me: It’s impossible to fuck up the design of a front-engined two seater sports car, as it has beautiful proportions right from its package.
BMW Design: Hold my beer...

I’m obviously not a designer but my impression here is common to so many cars these days that the front is so busy with vents (or “vents”) that it feels in tension with itself. There is no sense of calm.

https://twitter.com/Roadster_Life/status/1032683535927308288

[dodint]

I know someone somewhere always has to be edgy with the hot takes; but the reactions I've seen to this car have been mostly favorable. I'm reserving opinion until I see it in motion. The front creases do appear to be a bit much and contrary to earlier Z cars. Maybe they're a concession to Toyota which will sell the same car but with what I assume will be smoother lines.

[The359]

I said it elsewhere, I think it looks a lot more like an SLK now than the Z4 of old. I assume the non-M-ish version will be boring as hell.

The Supra will still be uglier though.

[MR2 Fan]

without the BMW grille you could definitely mistake it for a Mercedes!

[dodint]

The snout looks like the ass end of the Civic Type R. I can't unsee it now.

[Rare White Ape]

That looks way less fugly than the Toyota design, but looks much more fussy.

It certainly ain’t no Ferrari, that’s for sure.

[balki]

Why not ugly in absolute terms, for a FR 2-seater it is, especially compared to the last Z4
This looks more like a Benz (CLA maybe) mixed with a Kia Stinger, but with the proportions off slightly

Have we seen what the Supra looks like? The test mules are just test mules, and the Gazoo one is ... a body kit

[Rare White Ape]

Nothing official yet, but this render on the current Wheels magazine is probably your best guide to what it might look like.

It doesn't look as fancy as the FT-1, which makes me disappoint.

https://assets01.magshop.com/au/assets/product/0028629_wheels-magazine-subscription.jpeg

[MR2 Fan]

I think the Supra looks ok from what I've seen so far...the lower front could be better, but there's always body kits (are those still a thing?)

[speedpimp]

I like the Bimmer.

[Yw-slayer]

Looks fine to me.

[The359]

For those curious of a size comparison. They really seem to be the same proportions, the Supra is just bulkier.

https://scontent.fphl1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/42189815_10156382227838801_6816729392199237632_o.j pg?_nc_cat=107&oh=aca483a229e5f85892fc087f1a85dc73&oe=5C352AE5

[Rare White Ape]

One might say better proportioned too.

[Yw-slayer]

The 86 is very rim and angle dependent...

Do you see what I did there?

But going by that picture, probably.

[MR2 Fan]

I've never been a fan of cars with a long front hood....it's a weird thing, I know but I like to know where the front of my car is when I'm in traffic.

I'm not saying this Supra has a long front hood in general, but the one thing that looks different, of course it has an I6 in the front, but people have been swapping 2JZ's into 86's

[The359]

https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/u9ra3ate0wmxfgg7bhiy.jpg

Yikes. Just looks so warped.

[balki]

It looks so tall and narrow there. Maybe the camo vinyls really do work.

It looks much better in the comparison shot, it makes the 86 looks like it's rear mid-engine

[Rare White Ape]

Yeah, again it looks a bit blobby.

The side view shows off the classic 2 seater GT design; seats over the rear axle, cabin heavily rearward, generous curved front end that contains six cylinders of goodness. It recalls classics like the 240Z and 2000GT.

But, as I’ve said before, it ain’t no Ferrari. Recent V12 Ferrari’s, including the 812 Superfast, have been a GT styling masterclass.

[Godson]

The sp1 and 2 are perfection defined

[Tom Servo]

including the 812 Superfast

You mean the one that looks like a recent Jaguar inspired by a ~2000 Pontiac Firebird?

[MR2 Fan]

F12 TDF for me

https://cdn.jamesedition.com/media/W1siZiIsImxpc3RpbmdfaW1hZ2VzLzIwMTgvMDEvMjQvMDUvMT IvMTcvMzk4NDhhY2QtOGI4ZS00ZWM3LTg2Y2MtZDBlODNjZDAx OTgwLzEyMDEyYzZkYThhNmZfbG93X3Jlc18yMDE3LWZlcnJhcm ktZjEyLXRkZi5qcGciXSxbInAiLCJ0aHVtYiIsIjIwMDB4Il0s WyJwIiwid2F0ZXJtYXJrIl0sWyJwIiwiZW5jb2RlIiwianBnIi wiLXN0cmlwIC1xdWFsaXR5IDgwIC1pbnRlcmxhY2UgUGxhbmUi XV0/2017-ferrari-f12-tdf.jpg?sha=c52f30ee2e7f87ea

https://cdn.jamesedition.com/media/W1siZiIsImxpc3RpbmdfaW1hZ2VzLzIwMTgvMDEvMjQvMDUvMT IvMTcvMDFiMDBiYmMtYzc0ZS00MjE2LWJkNWItYjViNDEwNmM2 ZjJkLzEyMDA4NTgzM2IzOTJfbG93X3Jlc18yMDE3LWZlcnJhcm ktZjEyLXRkZi5qcGciXSxbInAiLCJ0aHVtYiIsIjIwMDB4Il0s WyJwIiwid2F0ZXJtYXJrIl0sWyJwIiwiZW5jb2RlIiwianBnIi wiLXN0cmlwIC1xdWFsaXR5IDgwIC1pbnRlcmxhY2UgUGxhbmUi XV0/2017-ferrari-f12-tdf.jpg?sha=a1e21a59ece0e1f6


(sorry for derailing this thread a bit)

[CudaMan]

It'd be cool if the Supra could look like a Ferrari, but it probably has ground clearance and platform considerations that the Ferrari doesn't have. I'm also betting Toyota worked to make the outer dimensions minimal, contributing to the chubby/dense look rather than a lean and athletic design.

I think everything behind the rear wheels could have been done better, but it's otherwise a reasonable looking sports car.

[SkylineObsession]

I'm still lamenting the lack of a rear wing. :( Unless there's a pop up one. But still.

I'm not sold on it yet, preferred the look of the FT-1. Toyota got is so right with the look of the 86, so i'm still a little hopeful the Supra doesn't look as bad as some mock ups.

[Rare White Ape]

F12 TDF for me

Oh yeah. The F12 is fully within “UNF” territory for me.

[Freude am Fahren]

I like the design. I just hope it performs well.

By the way, with German mechanical, and Japanese electrical in the engine bay, it should be pretty much bulletproof, right?

[Godson]

German reliability....you know BMW makes... Nevermind

[CudaMan]

Not sure if serious.

[Freude am Fahren]

Well, aren't the mechanicals of BMW's pretty damn reliable? Isn't it always the electronics that fail?

[Godson]

E36 are known for headgasket failures and/or cracked heads (I have personally done 3), VANOS failure, failed rear strut towers, failed front strut towers, and overall weak suspension attachment points

E39 is known to bake the ABS controller, which also affects the speedometer, odometer, cruise control, and other off and ends. E39 M5 is known to have expensive Vanos troubles, even when maintaned well. Let's not forget the thrust arms failing and creating massive toe changes under braking.

E46 is VERY well known for the rear subframe cracks and complete failures. They also have issues with vanos rattle and failures too. The frame is very similar to the e36 and similar troubles with shock mounts.

E90 are known for issues with the butterfly actuators for the ITBs for the M series V8s to break down and fail. Also have failures of the Idle Control Valves.

I could keep going, but honestly I stopped following BMW after all of my friends cars kept falling apart.

#SaltynotSalty


I still think they drive great, and overall like them, but the things that break....

[Godson]

Oh yeah, let's not forget the cooling system failures.

I won't get nit picky about each component, but just the overall fragility of the entire system as designed across the last 25+ years of vehicles.

[dodint]

You speak like someone that (1) reads owner forums and reads requests for information on particular issues and accepts those issues as widespread, and (2) does high performance activities with your car with puts you at an ownership extreme.

For instance, the E46 subrame problem is an issue if the car is tracked, otherwise, meh. Same with the Z3, it was fine until they dropped the S54 into it and people flogged it.

My E46 is tracked, has 161k miles on the odo and still gets me to work everyday. I have ran it low on oil by four quarts and the only thing I have had to put into it is a new air intake boot, the rubber got old and tore at a seam after 16 years.

I am not saying you're entirely wrong, just that your experience represents a certain extreme not representative of the typical use case.

Of my E24, E36, E46xi, E60, E63, R56, and E46ci the biggest issue I ever had was when I nuked the E36 head gasket. Happened at something like 130k miles and was $1000 in parts to replace the entire motor.

Guess we're not friends. :P

[dodint]

Oh, I will make one concession, they're reliable but horribly over engineered.

[SkylineObsession]

Tim/Shmee has driven the new Supra, and has a good video of it. Some drifting in it too by some pro drifter dude.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8NxcndBp7Q

[Godson]

I'm merely speaking with my local friends and my personal experience. Not from owners forums.

YMMV

/me shrugs

[CudaMan]

I hear about a smattering of problems from friends/acquaintances too. The number of things that have gone wrong with T's low mileage (whopping 46k now!) E46 M3 is unsettling. And the running joke with newer turbo BMWs is that you don't want to own one out of warranty.

BMWs seem like well engineered cars that aren't built to the generally more rigorous quality control or durability standards of the Japanese cars I grew up with and still own. I love German cars but every time I think about buying one with my own hard-earned I get cold feet.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Same sentiment as Cuda.

I do love to drive the ultimate driving machine, but not sure if I really want to own one out of warranty.

Anyway, hopefully Toyota and BMW will be able to influence each other in a good way and not end up with a car that doesn't drive well and with lower reliability... :p

[MR2 Fan]

I've never been a huge fan of BMW. I had the chance to buy a late 90's 3-series when I was considering buying a used Lexus GS300 (Which I ended up buying), and just didn't like the interior much. Also drove an M3 but it was in really ratty shape.

I do like the (original) 8-series and would love to own one of those if it wasn't for the electrical complexity. I also liked the one with the doors that dropped down

[dodint]

The Z1?

I guess I've just been very lucky with the 9 BMWs I've owned; only one of which had a warranty while I owned it (the E60). :P

[Tom Servo]

I love German cars but every time I think about buying one with my own hard-earned I get cold feet.

From my understanding, Consumer Reports agrees with you on this count. I don't subscribe, but my father does and regularly tells me that German cars now regularly get low marks for reliability.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Anyway, most of us have not actually owned 9 BMWs, we all just heard from here and there so we could be wrong...

JD Powers 3 yr study showed that BMW tied with Toyota at 7th place!

https://www.businessinsider.com/most-reliable-car-brands-according-to-jd-power-ranked-2018-2

[Freude am Fahren]

Guess I was wrong. I had an E36 from 50k to about 150k on it, and only problem mechanically was a water pump around 100k. And an E38 that had 0 mechanical problems up to about 110k when I got rid of it.

I guess YMreallyMV

[dodint]

The most recent model year BMW I have owned was a 2008, maybe they have gone to shit more recently. *shrug*

[Crazed_Insanity]

My thru the grapevine experience was a close friend’s 90’s 328... would that be e36 or e38? Anyway, he got it used at around 20k miles.

Loved how it drove and the amazing engine sound.

There weren’t any major mechanical problems, just small little things like sunroof switch, radio nob, powered window , computer failures... all these things costs hundreds to thousands to fix. Good thing he had extended warranty...

Still, warranties don’t last forever. Eventually the auto tranny failed and without warranty, he decided to just not fix it. Don’t think he reached 200k, probably around 150kish...

Anyway, now he and his wife both drive Hondas...

[MR2 Fan]

yeah, the thing I hear most frequently is electrical issues more than engine issues

[Crazed_Insanity]

Oh, another thing is the interior lining, not sure if they were genuine leather or faux... somehow just keeps on getting de-laminated. He had it fix under extended warranty once, but eventually they peeled off and turned bubbly again. All the door interior linings looked horrible as the car ages...

Without these fancy trimmings, the car has good mechanicals I suppose. He probably should've gotten a stick rather than automatic. Car just feels solid. I think the car 'feels' over engineered compared to Japanese counterparts probably because these cars need to travel fast on autobahn regularly. Japanese cars are probably designed to go mostly on US hwys...

I was kinda tempted to buy a more practical and luxurious 3 series rather than the S2000 back then..., but hearing my friend complain about his car over the years made the decision rather easy since my intention is to keep my car for a long long time... and I'm rather cheap...

[Godson]

That's the route I went. S2k, Bertha, m3, m3, Yukon, 911, truck.

[TheBenior]

Guess I was wrong. I had an E36 from 50k to about 150k on it, and only problem mechanically was a water pump around 100k. And an E38 that had 0 mechanical problems up to about 110k when I got rid of it.

I guess YMreallyMV

I'm not sure why this would be any more indicative of current BMW reliability than how a 1994 Hyundai Excel isn't for modern Hyundai products.

FWIW, BMW was one of the bottom 10 UK brands for engine reliability in 2013 (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/news/9815860/German-cars-lose-out-in-reliability-survey.html) according to UK 3rd party warranty company Warranty Direct. It doesn't say the time period of the data involved, however.

The N54 and N63 had some pretty well documented problems. I know BMW extended warranty coverage on N54 high pressure fuel pump and wastegate issues in the US, FWIU, this was exclusively in the US. BMW may have figured that they'd be able to get away with not doing so in Europe, where drivers only average half the annual miles of American drivers. The N55 fixed most of the N54's problems, but they occasionally had oil filter housings crack, dripping oil on to the belts, leading to the belts slipping off and wrecking everything. N63B44O0 engines famously got the "customer care package," but judging by my buddy unloading his ~60k mile 550i in the face of thousands in repairs, it sure didn't fix all the issues. The N63B44O0 just runs too damn hot due to certain inherent design flaws that aren't practically fixable.

But hey, maybe more recent variants of the N63 in particular have solved the issues. Talking with my mechanic who's a VW/Audi specialist, it seems like VAG is past their premature 2.0 turbo engine failures.

[Rare White Ape]

That's the route I went. S2k, Bertha, m3, m3, Yukon, 911, truck.



AE86, Holden Nova, SV650, GSX-R750, Tuono V4 1100 Factory.

Each successive vehicle name gets more elaborate and annoying to type. What should I buy next?

[Crazed_Insanity]

May I recommend the Porsche Panamera Sport Turismo Turbo?

[samoht]

Pics, intro video (including 360 degree view) and specs here http://japanesenostalgiccar.com/news-this-is-the-production-2020-toyota-supra/

[JoeW]

I will say that the whole JD Power thing is not a reliable indication of the status of vehicle reliability etc. When I worked at a Porsche dealer as a service writer for a short while I could tell you some stories about how JD gets their very subjective customer opinion "facts". Suffice to say they are not facts but surveys given to customers after a warranty complaint was serviced. In a nutshell these reports are more skewed to how well the dealer schmoozed the customer during the repair process. And boy did we have to kiss ass...our pay was based on our JD Power satisfaction % which is the main reason why I left.

Just a simple example...now they only survey "warranty" customers...and they usually call a week or two after the repair has been filed and submitted to the manufacturer for warranty reimbursement.

Let's say a customer brings their 997 Turbo in for a check engine light issue. The tech finds the issue and it is repaired to my satisfaction during the test drive. Now here's where a few things could go wrong.
1) Let's say we didn't have a cool enough car as a loaner to satisfy this gentleman...he is not happy he has to drive a Boxster around while his car is in the shop. If it were a "lesser" brand shop you don't get shit for a loaner so the customer is pissed.
2) Let's say after the repair is completed a completely different issue pops up that is not warranty related. And when JD calls, this guy is angry as fuck because of it.

I could on with all the dumbass scenarios that would cause a customer to be pissed off when JD calls up asking how "satisfied" they were with their dealership experience on their new cars.

3rd party warranty company surveys are no different. Opinion based. And I'll be honest, people only buy 3rd party warranties if they either already know the car has a major issue or suspect it will have one. We would have people come in and diagnose their 996 or 986 (Boxster), find out it has a main seal leak (requiring a rebuilt engine), then go get a 3rd party warranty and have it fixed under warranty.

So take these types of surveys with a grain of salt...or actually don't believe in them at all until the way they get their information is fixed. Problem fixed or not, the state of mind of the customer at the time of the survey is what they are surveying.

[MR2 Fan]

I want to see the new Supra with the MKIV wing on the back. Somehow I think that would have sold more people on it.

I'm still positive about the new car...it's too early to know whether it will be reliable or not. I kinda surprised myself being a die-hard Toyota fan and not a big fan of BMW's reliability. Maybe I'm delusional that Toyota engineers are overseeing things and ensuring reliability? I dunno.

I think whatever Toyota did, if they didn't resurrect the 2JZ engine, people would be mad...because 30 year old engine designs are so great.

The new Supra is 200 pounds lighter and has 50 more lb. ft. of torque and 20 more hp..........but can it make 1,000 hp because that's the only thing the MKIV Supra is good for.....right??????

[JoeW]

Looks too much like the M Coupe from the early 2000's and then the Z3 and Z4. Just too much BMW resemblance in there for my tastes.

Toyota has enough money to make their own damn car. When you have an icon of a car like the Supra you can't just outsource for it. With this car being basically a rebadged Z4 M40i it just cheapens it for me...not like I was going to the dealer anyways ;)

[MR2 Fan]

I decided to try this:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dw6G2uCWoAEVz2R.jpg


I think Toyota was hedging their bets by making a smaller run sports car since a lot of people aren't buying them anymore.

[JoeW]

I will say the Supra looks a lot better than the BMW brother car all the way around. And the hardtop probably has a lot to do with it...convertibles tend to not have the same nice lines as their coupe counterparts.

The MkIV wing might be just a scosh too much. Maybe they could have made a movable wing inside that ducktail that raises and lowers at speed? Probably will make it to the R version ;)

[MR2 Fan]

I will say the Supra looks a lot better than the BMW brother car all the way around. And the hardtop probably has a lot to do with it...convertibles tend to not have the same nice lines as their coupe counterparts.

The MkIV wing might be just a scosh too much. Maybe they could have made a movable wing inside that ducktail that raises and lowers at speed? Probably will make it to the R version ;)

you mean like the FT-1 had? yeah

https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--vUbcdMrV--/c_scale,f_auto,fl_progressive,q_80,w_800/npi6r1sabrfpy5njcgjb.jpg

[JoeW]

Nailed it.

[JoeW]

To further my JD power issue...

10 of the Top 15 cars that owners keep the longest are Toyotas. 4 are Honda’s and 1 is a Subaru.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/research/the-top-15-cars-that-owners-keep-the-longest/ss-BBS1VqT?li=BBnb7Kz#image=2

[Freude am Fahren]

I hate all the panels used here, couldn't they make it out of fewer pieces?

http://japanesenostalgiccar.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/Toyota-Supra-A90-debut-Detroit-Auto-Show-08-640x480.jpg

Overall I like it though.

[Jason]

Hey, if you dent one part, you don't have to replace the entire body like some of the cars out there now.

Also, that MKIV wing looks awesome on it.

Never thought I'd see the day when the NSX, GTR, and Supra all exist again. Now we just need a GTO and an RX7.

[Rare White Ape]

I think it’s ugly.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Toyota has plenty of hideously ugly cars in its line up, but as radical as it is, I can't call it ugly.

[MR2 Fan]

It definitely looks better in Silver to me

[XHawkeye]

Best of both worlds, Toyota styling + BMW reliability

[Crazed_Insanity]

Best of both worlds, Toyota styling + BMW reliability

QFTS! [Quoted for True Sarasm]

[JoeW]

As Willy Wonka might say...strike that, reverse it.

[Godson]

The more I hear about this, the more I feel like yota missed the mark.

I was hoping for something to challenge the GTR, NSX, et al.

But it's literally a rebranded BMW with a hard top.

[Rare White Ape]

It’s not related to the Z4 tho. It’s an all-new platform.

[MR2 Fan]

The more I hear about this, the more I feel like yota missed the mark.

I was hoping for something to challenge the GTR, NSX, et al.

But it's literally a rebranded BMW with a hard top.

It's also less than half the price of those cars

[SkylineObsession]

I still retain a fraction of a hope that the FT-1 as it looked in concept form will turn out to be the ultimate Supra, one that will challenge the NSX, GT-R etc.

[The359]

It’s not related to the Z4 tho. It’s an all-new platform.

It is a Z4, the new Z4, the platform, motors, and much of the interior is straight from the Z4.

[TheBenior]

It's also less than half the price of those cars
Which was probably the correct decision given the lack of sales of the NSX and presumably the GT-R, given how long it's been out without a complete redesign.

[JoeW]

As stated before, it’s called the Z4 M40i.

[MR2 Fan]

I still retain a fraction of a hope that the FT-1 as it looked in concept form will turn out to be the ultimate Supra, one that will challenge the NSX, GT-R etc.

We could still get this:

https://jalopnik.com/toyotas-1000-horsepower-road-legal-racecar-concept-woul-1822020023

https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/bruln59xplac2w6gocpx.jpg

[Rare White Ape]

It is a Z4, the new Z4, the platform, motors, and much of the interior is straight from the Z4.

My bad, I hadn’t realised the new Z4 had been revealed.

But that was always the case. BMW and Toyota we’re sharing the platform (and costs) for a new range of sportscars, in the same vein as the Toyota-Subaru deal, so I don’t understand the complaints.

I also think the new Z4 looks waaaaay better than the new Supra.

[Godson]

It's also less than half the price of those cars

Yes, but those cars battled against each other in the highest classes of Japanese racing. Toyota literally built a gt300 class car with BMW calling the shots.


I have ling been the person vying for a better 350hp, lightweight red platform. But I don't see how this bears any resemblance to the a70 or a80 Supra when you look at dimensions etc.

[Rare White Ape]

Would it fall in the 370Z range then?

[Tom Servo]

But that was always the case. BMW and Toyota we’re sharing the platform (and costs) for a new range of sportscars, in the same vein as the Toyota-Subaru deal, so I don’t understand the complaints.

Because the Supra is more special than the FR-S/BRZ. If they called it anything other than Supra, people would be way more into it.

[Godson]

Would it fall in the 370Z range then?

370z starts at 29,995 here in KCMO. That's 332 how and 3200 lbs. Nismo is 350hp and similar weight with better chassis tuning at 45k.

The Supra starts at 49,990. And it doesn't come with a manual.

Z comes standard with manual and needs to be optioned with an optional 7 speed auto.

It hasn't been updated in 5 years, but at that price point. A base z with some bolt on would be my go to.

[dodint]

Hasn't the 370Z been on the market since we were in high school? ;) Of course it's an attractive price point. Everyone that wants one has/had one.

[Godson]

Hush you!

;)

[Freude am Fahren]

Is the 370 considered a separate gen than the 350? I always look at it as another face-lift/mid-cycle refresh, or whatever. Either way, interesting that Nissan's two sports cars have basically been the same for more than 10 years. Although they have kept doing incremental improvements (and price increases) to the GT-R. If you consider the 370 to be a refreshed 350, I think that platform is closer to 20 years old!

Edit: I remembered that Nissan must consider the 370 separate, given the Z33/34 designations.

[JoeW]

There was a nice 370z Nismo in the parking lot when I picked up pizza tonight. Still a damn fine looking vehicle. One of the few reasonably priced modern sports cars I would consider buying if I had some money.

[MR2 Fan]

the first Supra off the production line, signed by Akio Toyoda went for $2.1 million at Barrett-Jackson

[CudaMan]

The 370Z is on the same basic platform as the 350Z, but with lots and lots of changes even beneath the skin (suspension geometry etc). I'd call it somewhere in between a mid cycle refresh and a new model. The good thing is they got a lot of things right (same with the GT-R) and those things are still right.

I'm pretty confident the new Supra will be much faster than a standard 370Z on track.

[MR2 Fan]

Wait, is the new Supra so BMW that we're not supposed to use our turn signals?

[Kchrpm]

Supra drivers don't seem like turn signal people anyway.

[dodint]

https://scontent-lax3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/52886991_2043015269144924_3830876601990512640_n.jp g?_nc_cat=102&_nc_ht=scontent-lax3-1.xx&oh=e0f57731db02e06296124a1fd6b2f4b8&oe=5CDFCA22

Who over-inflated this Supra?

[MR2 Fan]

yeah, looks bloated, but so did the MKIV

[TheBenior]

Shh... you're not supposed to acknowledge the Mk4's bland, bloated styling relative to it's contemporaries.

[MR2 Fan]

:lol:

The MKIV Supra looked great from the back, loved the taillights, but the front was never appealing to me

[Rare White Ape]

Shh... you're not supposed to acknowledge the Mk4's bland, bloated styling relative to it's contemporaries.

It looked good next to an R33 GT-R.

[Yw-slayer]

No it didn't. The R33 was aggressively good-looking. The Supra has never actually looked that good.

[MR2 Fan]

No it didn't. The R33 was aggressively good-looking. The Supra has never actually looked that good.

QFT

The R33 is my favorite GT-R

[Yobbo NZ]

Another fan of the 33 here too, the smooth lines have aged very well.
Everyone raves over the 32, but now days it looks like a 5yr old designed it with a ruler.