View Full Version : Heel-Toe Question (Cuda maybe?)

May 2nd, 2017, 06:37 AM
When growing up around stockcar racers, I basically learned to beat the shit out of straight-cut gearboxes and such, so never really learned the finer points of shifting. So when I bought my EK Civic hatch several years ago, I made it a point to practice heel-toe. I got pretty decent at it, doing it as often as I could in daily driving. Then a Jeep jumped out in front of my beloved hatch on a country road and that was the end of that.

So now, on my 2010 Civic, Which I've been driving for well over a year--I still can't quite get it consistently. And after a brief googling, it seems like some other people find this an issue on modern drive-by-wire cars. Basically, when the clutch is depressed, throttle response on the pedal position sensor seems to just take a shit. So on a country highway, slowing from 80-90kph, I can get a pretty solid dab of throttle from 5th to 4th, and usually from 4th to 3rd and it goes relatively smoothly. But at slower speeds, sometimes 4th to 3rd and FREQUENTLY from 3rd to 2nd, I dab the throttle and it MAYBE blips from idle up to like 1400-1500 rpm, rather than the 2000+ or whatever I might need.

Has anyone else struggled with this on drive-by-wire cars? IS it actually a DBW problem and that's that, too bad, or is it maybe a PPS calibration issue? Maybe Bryan can chime in, I'm sure he's driven enough DBW cars in anger? :popcorn:

May 2nd, 2017, 08:36 AM
I can't speak for the Civic, but the logic that governs DBW cars isn't always helpful. A lot of it is designed to improve emissions, drivability, safety or even warranty repairs but it sometimes doesn't respond in the same way an old mechanical throttle might. I could totally see Honda locking out the throttle when the clutch is depressed to keep people from burning up a clutch. Based on how I've seen some people drive, it's probably a good call. ;)

May 2nd, 2017, 10:39 AM
Data point: DBW hasn't been an issue when heel-toeing or otherwise rev-matching in my FiST.

Rare White Ape
May 2nd, 2017, 06:19 PM
I drive a 2008 Civic fairly regularly, and yes, I have noticed the same thing, but only at low speed. At higher speeds it's fine. Just gotta push the pedal little deeper to get that blip.

Freude am Fahren
May 2nd, 2017, 09:24 PM
My BRZ doesn't like to rev off idle. But if it's already about 1500rpm or so, it's fine. But modulating throttle/clutch on an easy take-off is a pain in the ass.

Driving in traffic sucks in it. It either revs a lot, burning the clutch and sounding like I'm trying to race everyone, or bogs down and the DRLs cut out. FML. I can haz LS plz?

May 3rd, 2017, 07:48 AM

I've noticed it occasionally hurts takeoffs from a stop, too. The exact same pedal position the last time I left the intersection is now a different RPM. But you're right, as soon as you get up into the higher RPM, everything smooths out.

Lame. I miss my EK. :(

May 3rd, 2017, 08:43 AM
Is there software available for it? Tuning DBW response is a big deal for a lot of flashes - maybe such a thing exists for the Civic?

Alan P
May 3rd, 2017, 01:01 PM
Quite a few modern cars will simply not allow you to add power or rev the engine while the brake pedal is pressed. VW's are especially bad for this.

May 3rd, 2017, 01:34 PM
Indeed - that was the basis of the Toyota unintended acceleration thing. That's why you gotta adjust the software. ;)

Alan P
May 3rd, 2017, 02:33 PM
I should also add that many modern cars pedals just aren't set up for it with the brake pedal often being slightly higher that the accelerator. I've usually ended up doing more 'both sides of one foot' than Heel and toe.

May 3rd, 2017, 05:01 PM
I do that anyway, but I wear a size 14 US Mens shoe so it's fairly easy.

May 3rd, 2017, 07:01 PM
My 2005ish Focus had issues with this which wasn't helped by the horrible seating position and pedal placement. The 86 and GT4 were excellant though, you wouldn't know that they were drive by wire. Pedal placement on the GT4 is spectacularly good as is the weighting (obviously there was explicit effort in this area). 86 was good but not great, I did do an actual heel and toe on that as opposed to the use the outstep that you'd usually use on other cars though

Tom Servo
May 4th, 2017, 08:46 AM
Oddly, when I did the Skip Barber formula cars, they were definitely set up to be "outstep" style.

May 4th, 2017, 09:15 AM
Oh it's definitely done with both-sides-of-feet. I thought that was kinda how most people do it, now. I have big feet, tho.

Freude am Fahren
May 4th, 2017, 12:13 PM
Yeah, I don't think I've ever hit a gas pedal with my actual heel. Almost always it's the right side of my foot.

May 4th, 2017, 12:48 PM
Any time I try, my foot feels so clumsy and close to slipping off and getting stuck behind the pedal(s) that I have no confidence in trying it with any real amount of braking applied.

Tom Servo
May 4th, 2017, 12:50 PM
I did have an easier time kicking my heel over on the MX-5, the pedals were just far enough apart that I'd have a hard time hitting it with the side of my foot. Then again, I think I have small feet for my height.

May 4th, 2017, 05:47 PM
Yeah, I've got size 7 feet and always used my heel. Might also be because most of my manual transmission cars have been Mazdas with a few Hondas thrown in.

It's still easiest for me to do it with my heel in the Challenger. I wonder sometimes where the three-pedal setup came from in that car, because it's actually done quite well for heel-and-toeing. Maybe the Viper? The clutch and transmission came from the Viper, too.

I have noticed DBW cars I've owned needing a harder kick to the has to get the revs up with the clutch and brake in.

May 5th, 2017, 02:47 AM
Any time I try, my foot feels so clumsy and close to slipping off and getting stuck behind the pedal(s) that I have no confidence in trying it with any real amount of braking applied.

The harder you're braking the easier it is, the most difficult time to heel toe is when you're just driving casually. Just don't learn with stuff in front of you as you will screw up and have your foot fall off the brake pedal sometimes.

Freude am Fahren
May 5th, 2017, 07:29 AM
Heh, when I first started driving, I had my dad in the car with me ('95 325is). I was slowing to turn down our street, and when I went for second, my foot slipped off the brake, but I decided we were going slow enough to make the corner anyway. I made it, but got an earful about how "this isn't a race car!" :lol: