Windows tablet computing omnibus thread (Surface, Venue, etc)

[Random]

How's the Venue 8 Pro working for you, tsg, now that you've had a couple weeks with it?

[thesameguy]

Still love it. It continues to perform in a predictable way, and so far hasn't balked at anything I've thrown at it - which is a surprise both for the fact it's a tablet and the fact it's Windows 8. It's the most time I've spent with 8 thus far. The other day I ended up sitting around, so I tethered it to my cell and got random work done - because I could install my office's VPN software and remote desktop into our terminal server. That's nice. There was an initial problem getting the VPN to work (Win 8 permissions issue), and while figuring out what the problem was I popped open a command prompt window to do expedite troubleshooting. My coworker looked over and said WTF? DOS box on a tablet??? Yeah, that's how I do.

Last night, I hooked it up with VCDS to run climate control diagnostics on the Audi. Works great, and it's far better to hold a tablet behind the steering wheel than cram a laptop there, even my small diagnostics one. I am strongly considering buying one of those steering wheel tables (the one with all the jokes on Amazon) to hold the tablet to the steering wheel. I think that'd be a great setup.

Battery life continues to impress, as does screen quality. It's definitely an all-day machine, and the screen is so bright and clear it's pretty much an all-conditions machine to boot. I felt good about the keyboard when I first got it, but I feel even better now. It's very usable (for me) in both portrait and landscape mode, and typing quickly in either orientation is easy... something you can't do with a 10" tablet. I still maintain the Microsoft on-screen keyboard is about the best in the business - I've never used a better one.

I do have a couple additional complaints, but I think they're aimed at Windows 8 rather than the tablet, and specifically at IE - although it's completely possible I don't know what I'm doing. If you're staring at a flat web page with no text inputs and want to search the page or copy text, how do you do it? The on-screen keyboard is hidden until there is a selected text entry field. You can't hit CTRL+F or CTRL+C. You can permanently pin the keyboard, but that's wasteful of space most of the time. Also, if you start typing in a text input field but then decide you don't want to do that but you do want to change tabs, how do you do that? The menu is hidden at the bottom and the keyboard is displayed. You need to hide the keyboard, then get the menu up. It's annoying.

There are complaints about the Venue because the physical Start button is in a weird place. It might be, but to date I have pushed it exactly once, just to see how awkward it was. I didn't have a strong opinion, but i can't figure out why you'd push a button rather than just swipe the right side of the screen. That's what that swipe is for. What the tablet needs is a keyboard hide/unhide button. *That* what's weird. If I had one of those, I'd be set.

All in all, it was a great $200 purchase. Knowing what I know now, I would have bit at $250 or $300. For how I use it, it light years ahead of any other tablet. For some stuff, I could get by with a <$150 Android machine or a pointlessly expensive iPad Mini, but at $200-$300, it's the right answer without a doubt.

[Random]

Did you get a case? I'm getting the one that Amazon bundles--I'll post up how it is.

edit: will running Chrome in Win8.1 cause a rip in the space-time continuum? :D

[thesameguy]

I didn't get a case... I wasn't sure what exactly I wanted when I bought it, so got nothing. You've got the sleeves, the folios, the folding stands, etc. I just wasn't quite sure what would be ideal so I got nothing. ;) At this moment I am torn between just a sleeve and one of the combo case/keyboard thingies... I see how the keyboard might be useful, but I just haven't yet reached a point where using one would be a night & day improvement. I'd definitely be interested to hear what you think of the one you got!

You should be fine running Chrome on Win8 - but I think you will lose some of the ease (if that's the right word) of the touchscreen in doing so. IE11 on Win8 has been optimized for the tablet environment, whereas I don't think Chrome has. You may find it difficult to do some things... though I have no idea what they'd be. ;) I've just stuck with IE11 - I'm trying to keep the tablet as lean as possible. ;)

[Random]

Have you found any alternative on-screen keyboards? Or are you just dealing with the foibles of the standard version?

[thesameguy]

I actually really like the standard one. It's almost the same as the one on my phone - it feels really comfortable for me! What foibles are you referring to?

[Random]

I do have a couple additional complaints, but I think they're aimed at Windows 8 rather than the tablet, and specifically at IE - although it's completely possible I don't know what I'm doing. If you're staring at a flat web page with no text inputs and want to search the page or copy text, how do you do it? The on-screen keyboard is hidden until there is a selected text entry field. You can't hit CTRL+F or CTRL+C. You can permanently pin the keyboard, but that's wasteful of space most of the time. Also, if you start typing in a text input field but then decide you don't want to do that but you do want to change tabs, how do you do that? The menu is hidden at the bottom and the keyboard is displayed. You need to hide the keyboard, then get the menu up. It's annoying.


^^^

[thesameguy]

Oh, that's an IE thing, not the keyboard thing. The IE menu pops up from the bottom of the screen, in the same place the keyboard does. I think a change to how IE works would be required. Now that we're talking about it, a traditional tabbed browser (like Chrome), might fix the whole issue at the expense of a small amount of screen real estate. I wonder if you change IE to think it's "real IE" rather than "tablet IE." Hmmm...

[Random]

Showed up today. Lots to figure out with the interface. :)

[thesameguy]

It takes a little getting used to, but it's learnable in a short period of time, which tells me it's a darned decent one. :up:

[Random]

I haven't even gotten to the desktop, just poked around the Metro stuff. Ha. I think installing Firefox is on tomorrow's agenda, so that I can sync my bookmarks. After that, I gotta look at some of the e-readers. :)

[Random]

The IVSO case for the Venue 8 is meh. It's clearly designed for use in landscape only so it's kind of in the way in portrait mode. It'll protect the device in my bag, which was most of the point, though.

[thesameguy]

Then I will continue my hunt, or maybe take a risk on one of the keyboard cases... if I am going to add a certain type of inconvenience, I might as well get some benefit from it.

[Random]

I think I have a dead pixel. Just one, single solitary mote of black right in the middle of the screen. Hmm.

[Kchrpm]

Beauty mark.

[Random]

One in a million!

[thesameguy]

I haven't seen a dead pixel in a long time! I'll talk to Amazon - they might very well exchange it for you.

[Jacee]

I'm going to wait for Windows 9... I can skip 8 and 8.1; not anything I desire!

[Random]

I haven't seen a dead pixel in a long time! I'll talk to Amazon - they might very well exchange it for you.

I think they will--what are the odds of getting another one? Heh. I'll see if it bothers me at all this week. I only noticed it because I was reading a book, and the black spot jumped out against the page background.

[Kchrpm]

I have heard that dead pixels are inevitable, and that some places only replace if there is more than a few of them. Never gone through the process myself so I don't know.

[thesameguy]

FWIW, B&H Photo has the revised Dell stylus available for pre-order. I have no need for a stylus, but if you do...

[Random]

Haven't needed it so far, though I'm curious to see if the reviews are better.

[Random]

App-wise, are you still running stripped down, or have you put anything cool on yours?

I've got "Hyper" (3rd party YouTube app) and "Freda" (Windows Phone e-reader app) as my main additions. Waiting patiently for Firefox's March (estimated) release. Also waiting for Pandora to do an offical app; there was one for the Windows Phones.

Stock mail client is working nicely for me; multiple accounts is helpful feature.

[thesameguy]

Nope, not a thing! I tried an app that was supposed to control Windows Media Center on the TV, but it worked really, really poorly. If I could find one that worked better I'd be all over it, but for other stuff I do I haven't found it lacking in any way.

Yesterday I bought it into the office to pull codes and reset a CEL on a Yukon. Minds blown. :D

(I didn't bother mentioning you can do the same with an iPad ;) )

[Random]

FWIW, the one review I've seen of the Dell bluetooth k/b wasn't very positive, mainly because they rearranged some important keys.

[thesameguy]

Yeah, I read that. I am eyeballing the Logitech one (I like their cover/keyboard for the iPad), but I haven't felt compelled to spend real money on a keyboard I would infrequently use. I think for real work I'll still grab my laptop, although I gotta admit in the past several weeks I've been reaching for the tablet more often than my laptop. Maybe in another few weeks I'll be using the tablet most of the time, and a compact keyboard for it won't seem excessive...

[Random]

It annoys me that MS and google are dicking around pointing fingers at each other rather than actually having a calendar system that works and updates. :|

[thesameguy]

Conceptually, I agree, but since I don't use Google for anything it doesn't affect me. :p

What does affect me is the fact I can't use Google Maps or Youtube on my Windows phone for absolutely no good reason. Google filters out web browsers that aren't based on webkit (so, essentially, only mobile IE) and prevents those services from working properly, even when they are technically capable of it.

I am currently trying to find the best solution to let a Windows tablet stream to an AirPlay device. That's my mission. ;)

[Random]

The obvious work-around is to just have a bunch of IE links as tiles on my start screen--but that's really dumb, and they don't live-update.

Memo to Microsoft: if you want people to start picking up your shiny new UI, then make it easy for them to do the things in it that they can do in Android, etc.

[Random]

On another note, Dell's driver/BIOS update app is bad at remembering which updates you already downloaded and installed. Lame lame lame.

[thesameguy]

Memo to Microsoft: if you want people to start picking up your shiny new UI, then make it easy for them to do the things in it that they can do in Android, etc.

I don't think it's that easy. The reason is works on Android and iOS is because they have apps to perform that function. Since the Venue Pro is 8.1, it's not app-driven in the same way that dumber devices are. There is no protocol (per se, that's not technically accurate) that defines moving data from Google to another app - you can't do it with Eudora or Thunderbird or Outlook or Mac Mail or any of those things. It only works in "the Google app." Until there is a desktop "Google app" for Windows, this can never work. It is indeed a pain, but I've been dealing with it for years with Google users say "I want my Google stuff in Outlook." I'm sure you do, but you can't have it. On the one hand, historically it's up to the content provider to produce the app to consume that data on a device - it should be Google making "desktop Google app." Of course, they don't want to do that - they want your data on their servers. OTOH, Microsoft could probably produce that app or add that functionality into Outlook, but a) they would probably get sued or b) Google would make a game of changing the protocol (as they've done with Maps and Youtube) or c) It would be dumb of them to make using Google easier when they would love you to have Office 365. Which does, in fact, work *everywhere*. (I have been seriously thinking about subscribing, maybe having it host my email domain.)


On another note, Dell's driver/BIOS update app is bad at remembering which updates you already downloaded and installed. Lame lame lame.

I have never used that. Big believe in "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" so I pretty much never pre-emptively update drivers or BIOS. If something is broken I go hunting, but I never proactively update or let something do it for me. :shrug:

[Yw-slayer]

I wish the devs of One Finger Death Punch would fix it so that you could tap on the left or right of the screen to simulate left/right mouse buttons. Then I could game on the go with my Thinkpad Helix in tablet mode, and without having to attach a mouse to it. That would be FOR. THE. WIN.

[Random]

Bah: Firefox for Metro shelved. http://www.pcworld.com/article/2108742/mozilla-kills-firefox-browser-for-windows-8-metro.html

[thesameguy]

I get the distinct feeling Firefox for everything may be shelved. They are not doing well in the face of Chrome. Although, I have not been following the details on FirefoxOS, so maybe they've got that.

I've switched over to IE at work (because I was sick of Firefox's problems with Flash) and I've had exactly zero problems or concerns save one particular day when TigerDirect's website was causing ginormous slowdowns. Since I'm using it here and on the Venue, I think it's not long before I dump it on my desktop and laptop. I can't find a damn thing wrong with IE11. Yeah, I know people love Chrome and blah blah blah, but I also really love sitting down on every single computer I use or work on and have it the same. IE is part of that consistency, so I win by using it. That's all the encouragement I need (now that the days of it genuinely sucking are over).

[Random]

Yeah--I may need to suck it up and move my bookmarks over at home. I was hoping to use Firefox's built-in bookmark syncing across the desktop (Win7), laptop (Ubuntu), and tablet (Win8.1), but... :| I guess I can look for a third-party add-on to do that.

[thesameguy]

I haven't used bookmarks in probably ten years, so that definitely wasn't holding me back. Heh.

[Random]

Fry's has the Venue 8 Pro 32GB model on sale for $200: http://www.frys.com/product/8075744

[thesameguy]

They seem to have found traction at that price, which makes me happy. Seems like people are willing to give Win8 and tablet computing (versus tablet fucking around :lol:) a go at $200. Maybe Dell is doing MS a favor.

Speaking of, I'm really hoping MS gets off their high horse and lowers the price on the Surface 3 for Christmas. I'll be looking strongly to replace my laptop then, and I'd really like to consolidate on a Surface... but my current laptop will be four years old and I paid $400 for it. No way am I throwing $600+ at a Surface. $500 I'd stretch to it and feel happy. If not, I hear there are several large-format Win8 tablets on the horizon... modest guts running 8 behind a 13" or 14" touchscreen would win my money pretty quickly. We've got 10-12" tablets and 20"+ tablets but nothing in the middle yet. I hear Xmas 2014 is when all lines are completely blurred.

[Yw-slayer]

(Only very slightly related to tablets - but most things are becoming tablets or tablet-like now)

I'm waiting for Broadwell. Hopefully Lenovo will reverse at least some of the major ergonomic fuck-ups on its current generation of Thinkpads (no Thinklight, but more importantly, crappy mouse buttons integrated into trackpad which don't work most of the time and make it impossible to properly play One Finger Death Punch). Then I can turn my W520 into a full-time folding machine and get something like a T450s which will have a 15+hour battery life with the 6+3-cell battery set-up.

If they fuck it up then I may well look into a Surface 3, like you, or some other stuff. I looked at the ASUS offerings yesterday, and while they aren't the shiny new things just announced at CES/Computex (or whatever), they just look and feel low-rent. That goes for even the high-end N/G-series models. Nor do the reviews of the MSI gaming notebooks leave much cause for hope.

That leaves, perhaps, the HP zBook 14 (the 15 is about the same size and weight as the W520), and the Dell XPS 12 or 15. But they are all not cheap, and I can't see their Trackpoints being as good as those on the Lenovo models. The HP also looks like shit, and I don't really need the workstation-level graphics. So I may be stuck with a T-series. Obviously not going to get a Mac.

Maybe a Thinkpad Yoga 2? That may give them time to iron out any more irritating crap from the original Thinkpad Yoga. I wish I hadn't bought this Helix, it's a good idea but the execution was crap.

Having said that, the more I read about the SP3, the more I think I can see the point of getting it. That docking station is sweet (http://www.neowin.net/news/surface-pro-3-new-type-covers-pen-and-docking-station) and I suppose if I want proper Thinkpad keyboard P0W4H on the road I can always pair my Bluetooth Thinkpad keyboard to it, although that seems a somewhat clunky solution. Alas, poor Thinkpad Helix, I hardly knew ye...

[Blerpa]

I don't get really the point of Surface 3. I mean, ok, it's *almost* like an ultrabook. It's *almost* just a tablet. It *almost* has a keyboard. It has got a 0 - yes ZERO - score of fixability on iFixt. Starting at 900$ for entry level + keyboard? Hell, why not a Macbook Air, such a proper working machine? Me, one of your resident Apple critics and Windows aficionados. If someone like me is so certain of that, Microsoft really should think again.

Re: YW's pains - I'd still get a Lenovo. And no, not the Helix which was a total flop.
A Surface 3 is just almost something of anything it wishes to be without being properly. Not good enough. And I bet you will keep missing "proper" laptop functions and forms after a bit using it.
A gimmick machine, that what it is.

[Kchrpm]

It's like an ultrabook, except the keyboard is detachable so it turns into a keyboard. It's meant to compete with all the convertible ultrabooks out there, which cost about the same, and have similar specs and price. Seems completely reasonable to me.

Just to help with any possible confusion, there is no Surface 3, only a Surface Pro 3 (which runs Windows 8.1) and a Surface 2 (which runs Windows RT). So the Surface Pro 3 has proper laptop functions.

[Yw-slayer]

Blerpa - I already HAVE a Helix. Sadly.

[Blerpa]

Blerpa - I already HAVE a Helix. Sadly.

Yup. got that, feel the pain. Big opportunity missed by Lenovo.

[thesameguy]

Just to help with any possible confusion, there is no Surface 3, only a Surface Pro 3 (which runs Windows 8.1) and a Surface 2 (which runs Windows RT). So the Surface Pro 3 has proper laptop functions.

Which gives me great hope that MS is killing Windows RT. I thought Windows "Basic" editions were dumb, but RT definitely trumps those.

[Kchrpm]

I still like the idea behind it, and I've liked it since Windows Mobile pocketable clamshell devices came out in the late 90s, but I'm not the average consumer.

[thesameguy]

It just doesn't make sense anymore. 8.x is VERY fast on very modest hardware. The gap that RT was bridging won't exist in a a year... we'll be able to run full 8 on a cell phone, no worries. I'm sure MS knows that. RT was a money grab.

[Kchrpm]

Can 8.1 be put in (and brought out of)an immediate standby mode that lets it last days without the battery dying? Can 8.1 run on fanless hardware? Does 8.1 run on tablet hardware that will last 8-10 hours of direct use? I have no experience with it, these are genuine questions.

[Yw-slayer]

1. "Days" - surely depends on the hardware.

2. I think the answer is "Yes" if youi include the new Core-M stuff. So essentially the same as Answer 1.

3. As per Answer 2.

[Kchrpm]

So 8.1 has a standby mode that still receives and shows notifications but doesn't need to be regularly charged unless it's being regularly used? That's what I'm trying to get at, can you use it as a pick-up and play device that doesn't need to be powered down completely or tethered to a power cord for sporadic use during the day. Many reviewers when it first came out gushed about their iPads ability to leave it on and not have to charge it for a week or more, but it would still get notifications and be instant on, to me that's the experience that x86/64 software and hardware needs to be able to replicate to be viable for a tablet and not just a laptop in tablet form. If I have to put it into a standby mode that doesn't get any notifications for the battery to last past lunch, then no thanks.

[Random]

The Dell Venue 8 Pros (8" tablet, Nexus 7/Ipad Mini esque) that tsg and I have do all that.

I don't know that I would get 8-10 hours on a charge of *continuous* use (like, screen on the whole time), but I also don't know if any other small tablet really does that. I've gotten quite a few hours while reading books--never actually sat down and timed myself. You can probably find a review of the Venue 8 Pro that gives the battery life while running a movie or something.

edit: trustedreviews.com say they got 7.5 hours running Netflix constantly, which was less than the iPad Mini Retina.

[thesameguy]

Yep, the only thing 8.1 is missing is a cell radio - it and hardware that runs it well are more than capable of conventional cell phone duty. All the other pieces are in place. I'm not ready to suggest the miniaturization of the hardware or the battery technology is ready to cram that stuff into a cell-phone sized (~4") package, but it very well could be. If it's not, I'd say with a fair degree of certainty we are not far off.

[Blerpa]

Latest Galaxy Tab S 8.4 by Samsung - Android Tablet - has been tried with a constant Netflix showing by Joshua Vergara of Android Authority. Basically he started watching Breaking Bad on Netflix in binge mode to test when the tablet would lose it.
It was around 8-9 hours IIRC.

[Kchrpm]

Oh, awesome! I didn't know x86/x64 stuff had progressed THAT far, so yeah, RT can definitely die in a fire. My dad's OG Surface will lament this info, but he's still pretty happy with it, that's what matters.

[thesameguy]

Despite all the shit 8 has received, it does a lot of things really well. Thrown on top of modern Intel mobility hardware and it's a real solution for a lot of needs. It is very small and very fast. The VP8 boots from off in like 6-8 seconds. I don't even leave mine in standby - I shut it down entirely. By the time I've picked it up and sat back down, it's booted and ready to go. 7 on super fast hardware can't achieve that.

[Yw-slayer]

It's to the extent that I'm thinking of switching to a Surface Pro 3 for my next machine. Then again, that's also because Lenovo keep attempting to ROYALLY FUCK UP true Thinkpads.

[Kchrpm]

My mom let me know she was interested in getting a smaller, lighter device for travel, about the size of my dad's Surface and must have a keyboard, trackpad and full-size USB w/support for flash drives. I will have to look into some small SSD-driven Win8.1 ultrabooks/netbooks/convertibles/etc.

[Yw-slayer]

HAY GUYZ LOOK WHAT I FOUND LOL

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/windows-8-tablet-gaming,3847.html

[Random]

128GB microSD. Niiiiice.

[thesameguy]

This showed up in my crappy daily ebay email...

http://deals.ebay.com/5001377071__HP_Split_X2_13_M110DX_13_3___i3_128GB_ SSD_4GB_Win_8_Touchscreen_Ultrabook_Tablet_

I'm sorely tempted to get it!

[Kchrpm]

Everyone's lightweight Windows stuff still going strong? It's all systems go for a new laptop for Mom, something sub $400, and I'm just worried about more long distance tech support and holidays spent running months overdue updates and virus scans.

[thesameguy]

Still love my VP8. The last update fixed the last issue I was having (which was the ability to post to his forum, ROFL!) and it's been solid. I always underestimate the thing - Sunday night I was watching something on youtube and switched tabs in IE to look something up and the video kept playing in the background. I should not have been surprised, but I was - I expected it to be like a phone or regular tablet and halt playback, but it just kept playing like a real computer. Because it is. :D

[Random]

Not having any problems with mine. :)

[Yw-slayer]

Got a Surface Pro 3, i7 w/256GB today. Played with it yesterday and found it damn sweet, also need to get something more portable than my W520 for travelling due to having children, cameras, etc. Haven't started it yet, but I did install Drawboard on the W520 and it seemed powerful and slick enough for me to use on the SP3, along with the ipad for other reviewing/annotation. I'm also assuming it can only get better. :up:

[thesameguy]

Jealous. I really want one of them, but I just can't justify the price premium over the Venue, even with more power. Glad to hear you like it - I think more people would if they gave it a go.

Gotta ask - why not in the Win8 tablet thread?

[Random]

;)

[thesameguy]

YEAH! Surface owners aren't better than Venue owners. We're all the same, each and every one (just some of us know the value of a dollar better).

[Yw-slayer]

Because I'm SPECIAL and forgot that there was one.

This thing is awesome.

[JoshInKC]

My laptop died last week (MoBo failure) and I was wandering around Microcenter looking for a replacement when I saw an Asus Transformer Book T100 (http://www.microcenter.com/product/438324/Transformer_Book_T100TAM_Tablet_-_Gray). Thought it was a small cheap laptop at first, then I pressed the big button on the hinge and went "Oh, I guess tablets are maybe on the table now." To be frank, >90% of my use (screwing around here & on the rest of the net while watching tv in the evenings) could be handled by an android tablet, but I absolutely need full Word, Powerpoint, and Excel functionality for the other ~10%. And it would be convenient to have a keyboard available for that stuff. Also, some of that product line has HD ports built into the keyboard/dock thing, which is attractive, since I prefer to keep some stuff available locally rather than in the cloud.

TL;DR: Does Office function well on the Win 8.1 Tablets? Am I being sucked into a gimmick with this? Would I be better off buying another cheap, small laptop?

[thesameguy]

Kinda depends on what you do with Office. I do some Word and what I'd consider minor Excel work on my Venue 8 Pro and I don't find it lacking it any particular way. It's an Atom processor with 2gb of RAM, so startup speed isn't blazing fast or anything - it's not awful, though, not enough to ruin my day. At the end of the day, comparing a $200 computing device against a $400 computing device against a $2000 computing device is going to yield the results you would expect it to. As you describe it - 90% casual use and 10% productivity use - a tablet seems like a fair match. There are also convertible laptops out there (the Lenovo Yoga and the Dell 11 come to mind) that might do what you want, too. They carry a small but tangible price increase over The Cheapest Laptop You Can Buy, however. In your shoes, the question would really come down to budget - what is a cheap, small laptop cost in your mind?

[JoshInKC]

As to the Office use - PP for making ocacisional presentations, minor amounts of spreadsheet based data analysis, and Word for final tweaking/formatting of documents. Really, I'd be just fine sticking with my linux desktop/google docs (which is how I do my actual composition) for basically all of that stuff, except that I've found minor differences when exchanging papers, &c. with people(Journal Editors) to whom format is very important -- (trying to properly indent an SAA bibliography in google docs is an excercise in pointlessness).

Budget-wise, I'd like to come in under $500 and ideally ~$400, but if something great were a bit more it wouldn't be the end of the world.
Related: Does stuff like this tend to go on sale after xmas? I'm not crunched for time right now, so waiting a week or so is well within the realm of possibility.

[thesameguy]

I think all the big sales are happening right now. I think usually post-Christmas you'll see $50 and $100 price increases.

If your budget is $500, you will get much better performance out of a traditional laptop, so if performance is the goal I'd go laptop. If your budget is $400, the performance difference may be negligible - a $400 laptop will be faster than something like a Venue Pro 11, but maybe not in a way that matters.

[JoshInKC]

Got the Asus tablet thing. Seems pretty great so far. Bogs down a little bit when I do more cpu intensive tasks, but overall performance is good. Battery life is nice, and the keyboard/dock thing is pretty solid-seeming. So- it's a pretty decent buy for $260 out of pocket.

[Yw-slayer]

SAY IT.

[JoshInKC]

FORMIDABLE BENEFIT!!!

[thesameguy]

:lol:

[thesameguy]

Lacking anything better to do with some Dell credits that expired this week, I took $56 out of my pocket and ordered a Dell Inspiron 11 3000, Dell's cheapest 2-in-1 ("convertible") laptop. I agonized for a while between it and the Venue 11 - the motivation being how much I like the Venue 8 and wondered what more would be like. The Venue is thinner and lighter but the Inspiron has the flippy keyboard and a faster processor. I went for the processor. The fact the Inspiron uses a 2.5" drive and SODIMM memory gives some nice options, so accordingly I immediately swapped the 500gb HDD for a 256gb Samsung Evo and the 4gb for 8gb.

I immediately see the complaints about the keyboard - it's a chiclet style but feels very cheap. Actually, the whole thing feels really cheap, but what do you want for $400? Mind, it's not flimsy feeling, but it's definitely not premium materials. Lotsa plastic. Performance feels adequate. though oddly often times not as responsive as the Venue. Not sure what's up with that - it could be still busy working on updates or something. Although when flipped the keyboard on the back surface feels odd, so far I really like the flexibility. Not sure whether this thing is going to replace my laptop, the Venue, or both, but right this second I feel like both is very much on the table. Although going from a Core i5 to a Pentium seems weird, I actually can't think of anything I do on my laptop that would be adversely affected. A bunch of web browser and stuff with serial ports isn't exactly high-power stuff. Hmmm.

[thesameguy]

Frustration: I positively HATE the gesture recognition on the Inspiron's touchpad. For the most part, if you move the cursor in any direction something happens - windows change, menus appear, etc. The only way to use the touchpad is deliberate A->B movements terminating with a click - if you just swipe the thing to move the cursor in a direction (towards a button, or just to get it out of the way) it's interpreted as a gesture and that something should happen. Very annoying, especially on a device with a touchscreen. I've never actually used Win8 with pointing device-based gestures - but it's like OSX hot corner frustration x1000. Do not like. There is probably a setting somewhere - maybe to decrease sensitivity or even turn it off entirely, but OMG, this tuning would be a major annoyance for any PC user. I can't believe this was sent into production this way.

[Kchrpm]

One of you guys needs to show me how a Windows tablet + OneNote = Courier. Kthxbai

[Jacee]

http://www.theverge.com/2012/7/17/3164273/onenote-windows-8-radial-menu-hands-on-video ??

[Kchrpm]

Oh my...very nice :up:

[Kchrpm]

Well crap, Windows 10 gets rid of the ring menu:
http://mcakins.com/2015/01/24/breaking-new-onenote-mx-16-is-live-for-windows-10-jtp/

[thesameguy]

Fail. :down:

Stupid Apple ruining good things for the rest of us.

[Yw-slayer]

WTF? When I encountered the radial menu, I found it to be great.

[Kchrpm]

I found this video of a dual screen Libretto running Windows 8 Pro on YouTube

https://youtu.be/Nod906MgY-U

I also found one on eBay for $450.

[thesameguy]

That is crazy and neat... I think I am going to petition the office to invest in a Win8.1 Pro test machine for further study.

[Yw-slayer]

Is anyone watching the MS keynote? I think I came at least 5 times.

1. SP4 announcement.
2. SP dock announcement.
3. SB announcement.
4. SB revealed to be a tablet.
5. SB revealed to be full GPU capable even in tablet mode.

SPOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOGE

[thesameguy]

You know, they should build in the same Android emulation as Phone. That might open it up to an even bigger market.

[Yw-slayer]

You mean, on Win10? I suppose it could be done, couldn't it? Then again, I think Win10 doesn't need "apps" (good for n00bz), it's got full-on, full-fat "programs" (for real workz and gamez).

[Kchrpm]

The SurfaceBook looks awesome. If I get a new Windows computer, it's very likely it will be that.

[Yw-slayer]

It is THE Windows notebook to get. Unless you want a tablet, then you get an SP4.

Still so stoked.

[thesameguy]

You mean, on Win10? I suppose it could be done, couldn't it? Then again, I think Win10 doesn't need "apps" (good for n00bz), it's got full-on, full-fat "programs" (for real workz and gamez).

Yeah, but people are dumb and don't entirely get that. They want the same thing on their tablet as their friend has on the iPad. Given the cost spread is so minimal, having dumb phone apps on the Surface might make it attractive for people who haven't quite figured it out. ;)

[Yw-slayer]

True heh

[CudaMan]

IIRC there's a free Android app emulator or two out there for Win10.

SP4 and SB both look kind of awesome. The tablet and laptop have properly merged. Cool stuff.

[Yw-slayer]

The wife's Helix (inherited from me) is acting up. I'm thinking about passing her my Surface Pro 3 and old desktop notebook mount (for Christmas?), and getting myself the Surface Pro 4. I could go for the Surface Book as I have a W520 to use until it arrives in HK in 2016, but I think it's still a bit immature. Maybe in 3-4 years I can replace the SP4 with a Surface Book 4 or 5.

No, the sensible thing to do is to pass her my W520 and just use the SP3 (but also buy the new SP4 keyboard cover with fingerprint sensor). It is more than powerful enough and I don't really need a notebook other than the "upgraded" SP3. It's rather overpowered for what she does, but I will get mad brownie points for passing her a powerful notebook with a huge screen. She doesn't even need to backup stuff to an external HDD (although I will still set that up and make it auto-backup to our home server) as it has 2 SSDs and all her photos should fit on the 80GB Intel SSD. :lol: In a pinch I can also just grab it and login using my Windows account. Sorted, as long as she doesn't mind using it. :up:

[thesameguy]

As I look around my house and see how much bullshit technology is laying around I am grossed out. I need to eliminate laptops and buy a really sturdy couch. Or bed frame. Something made of wood.

[21Kid]

Build one out of old laptops?

[Yw-slayer]

I've moved all of her files to the W520 and things seem OK. Given Windows account logins it's easy nowadays. If she's happy with it after a few weeks I'l probably wipe the Helix and sell it as the damn thing is more trouble than it's worth.

[thesameguy]

I have decided to move on from the Dell Venue 8 Pro... to a Dell Venue 11 Pro. I like the 8 quite a bit still, but the two things that drag it down are the Atom processor and the size - whereas Win8 actually worked really well on the 8" screen, Windows 10 is just not quite as good in that respect. Yeah, there's tablet mode and that's fine, but since it's clear MS is no longer pushing the Metro interface I think it makes more sense to focus on the native 10 UI... and 8" ain't enough to do that in. I've got an 11/7140 en route now. It has a Core M-5Y71 Processor which should be pretty decent - somewhere between an i3-5005 and an i5-5200. Not bad. 4gb RAM, other standard PC stuff. I think it will address my minute concerns. :lol:

I am going to axe the 8, and *this* time I am running into the headaches that Random ran into with his 10 upgrade. ZOMG - what a hassle! I just wanted to remove user accounts but 10 couldn't find the installation environment, you can't boot it from a microsd card, Windows 10 doesn't recognize the Venue 8 touchscreen. Just problem after problem. Finally the solution hit me: USB hub. Got my flash drive, keyboard, and mouse all plugged in and it's chugging away now. The only thing that remains a mystery is how I managed to turn Bitlocker on... I don't remember doing it, and I'm not sure why I would have. Weird.

Whatever, it's in the past now! I'm not exactly sure what's happening to the 8, although this whole USB hub revelation has got me thinking... :D

[Yw-slayer]

Turn the 8 into a cheap-ass NAS for t3h pr0nz?

[Kchrpm]

Could you turn it into a remote control for something?

Related: Since I was considering an 8" Win tablet, and Windows 10 apparently doesn't like them, probably for the best I didn't get one.

[thesameguy]

Could you turn it into a remote control for something?

That is high on my list! If I can get Win10 on the machine in the motorhome, I'd *love* to use the tablet as a remote *and* a remote screen. I don't know if Continuum is quite there yet, but I'm antsy to try. :)

[thesameguy]

Venue 11 seems quite nice. It's not as fancy feeling as a Surface, but being cheaper than an SP3 and MUCH cheaper than an SP4 and being able to wrap significant Dell discount into the purchase means I can sleep soundly. :) That isn't to say the build quality is suspect - it's solid, but it feels quite a bit chunkier than the SPespecially4. It is quite quick, it's working on installing Win10 right now!

Hopefully this weekend I can pull the computer out of the motorhome and upgrade it to 10. I just need to think about what I want to do WRT to media center. It's a good interface for what we use that machine for, but I'm thinking 10 in tablet mode might do the job, especially with a wireless touchpad attached to the steering wheel! If I can do that, Continuum!!!

[thesameguy]

I am totally enamored with the VP11. The clincher was last night, when I found the registry key that controls the on screen keyboard scaling. My only complaint before that was that typing on the thing was a bear - the regular keyboard was too big and simply moving my fingers around to type resulted in slow performance. The replacement keyboard was too big, and took up 50% of the screen meaning I spent more time moving it around so I could see where I was typing than actually typing. The split keyboard was the best experience, but since I'm not a touch-typist it was a little difficult, and because it was difficult to hold the keyboard and type with thumbs. Now I have the regular keyboard scaled down to 60% (by telling Windows the display is 50% larger) and it's wonderful. Typically I just drag the small keyboard into the bottom right corner and go to town - easy to type, easy to see. So good.

The machine itself is very fast and very responsive - I've yet to bog it down in any meaningful way and boots & shutdowns are faster than an iPad, easily. Battery life is superb - I've yet to get less than six hours and typically it's 11-13 hours. If it was a smidge lighter it would be the perfect device. I just ordered a stand/cover and stylus for it - the handwriting recognition keyboard is very good, but it's awkward to write for a long time with a finger. The stylus should address that, and combined with OneNote for Office 365 it should be an overall excellent experience.

I was planning on replacing my four year old Inspiron 14 with a new laptop this year, but I am now thinking I will hold off. The VP11 might be an all-in-one device for me. Obvs not as powerful as Surface Pro, but mostly what I do is work remotely, so I don't need a lot of local processing. $400 refurb VP11 FTW.

[Yw-slayer]

BTW, the Surface Pro 4 keyboard with fingerprint reader logs me into Windows faster (from scanning the fingerprint) than the ipad pro does into ios. PLUS I can use it after a cold boot, whereas with ios I need to log in with my pin code first for some reason. The rest of the keyboard is also "Very very good for a laptop, and excellent for a tablet", as opposed to the SP3's keyboard, which was just "Very very good for a tablet".

[Jason]

I decided to put a Surface Book on credit, because I make sound financial decisions :lol:

So far, I'm pretty into it. I haven't owned a Windows machine for a few years, but I have been using them at work, so I'm not completely foreign to Windows in general. I'm getting used to 10, though, its pretty nice. One QoL improvement MS could and should do, is come to some consistency between gestures on the trackpad and the touch screen. I can three finger swipe back and forth between apps on the trackpad, but on the touch screen you have to swipe right from the edge of the left screen, launch the app switcher, choose the app. I found a plugin called 'TouchMe' (:lol:) that has the ability to make custom multi touch gestures, but stops short of the switching between apps ability.

I edited photos in Lightroom and Photoshop over the weekend, the usual stuff. Performance has been relatively ok for what I push around ('only' 16mp raws). Retouching in Photoshop with the pen has been pretty cool for the most part. Used a plugin called 'Artist Pad' to apply some shortcuts to the left side of the screen, when just using the screen/pen, but decided to instead keep the SB in laptop mode and continue to use the keyboard plus pen. I imagine Artist Pad is more useful for those who illustrate for long periods of time. Pen sensitivity is ok, not as good as a Wacom graphics tablet, but a lot better than other pen drivers out there.

Using the SB in tablet mode is surprisingly enjoyable. It's light enough to hold with two hands for light reading comfortably, and can actually be balanced with one hand sometimes. It's light weight is due to limited battery capacity in the tablet portion, resulting in only 3-4 hours of tablet use (probably get 10+ hours in laptop mode). Biggest complaint about the tablet, is that the design of the vents makes it a bit uncomfortable on the hands. They should probably round some edges out in future generations, if they intend for the customer to actually use it as a tablet from time to time.

Overall I'm pretty impressed with everything. I haven't had any major errors, so I think I hopped in at a good point. My wallet hates me, but when has that ever not been the case? :lol:

[Random]

Would hooking a Wacom up to it be useful for you? I guess you would lose the hand/eye feedback of actually using a stylus on the tablet.

[Jason]

If I was going to do that, I'd have bought a cheaper laptop :lol:

[Random]

If I was going to do that, I'd have bought a cheaper laptop :lol:

Well, yeah. Just curious if that workflow is even a benefit. :)

[Jason]

It's what I do on my desktop... You get used to either way.

On screen lets you (theoretically) be more accurate. Downside is the pen/your hand gets in the way of what you're looking at sometimes.

Separate tablet has a bit of a disconnect initially, but you get used to it like you do a mouse, but there's still a learning curve. And you don't have a pesky physical object in the way of what you're doing.

Either way, I generally demand a pen for photo retouching, I feel dumb when I try to do much with a mouse, and worse when I try to with a trackpad haha

[Yw-slayer]

Nice one! And at least you waited until most of the bugs had been fixed.

[Jason]

Ironically, i ran into auto rotate issues today... but a few restarts cleared it :up:

[Yw-slayer]

Heh. There are still some bugs even in my SP3, but most can be cleared by just shutting it down and restarting. My main complaint is that the wireless adapter could be better, and that Chrome doesn't work very well with Windows touchscreens, but I can't do much about both and expect that the second issue will never be fixed as Google has no interest in doing so. I suppose I COULD switch to Edge now that I'm using a Windows Phone, but really...

[Random]

My Dad's been having repeated trouble with the wireless adapter in his SP3...or more specifically the fact that Win10 updates appear to break it. Something funky going on.

[Yw-slayer]

That's the same problem that I've had a few times. It's usually resolved automatically by running Windows troubleshooter, but that's not very convenient if you need the wifi to work urgently.

[Jason]

Re: Chrome v Edge... I got annoyed a few times with Chrome being not entirely touch friendly, but Edge is not an option due to not having plugins/extensions. Wonder what Firefox is like... hmm

[Yw-slayer]

I'm more concerned about having to re-enter all my passwords into Edge.

[thesameguy]

Re: Chrome v Edge... I got annoyed a few times with Chrome being not entirely touch friendly, but Edge is not an option due to not having plugins/extensions. Wonder what Firefox is like... hmm

You don't have to run Edge. IE still exists in Win10. I use it periodically as, inexplicably Google Maps doesn't respond properly to touch in Edge. Works great in IE.

[Jason]

I avoid IE at all costs, unless it's required by work. :p

[TheBenior]

I saw a refurbished Surface Pro 2 with an i5 processor, 8GB of RAMand a 512 SSD for $400 shipped on the daily deals site meh.com (like the old pre Amazon buyout Woot) and ordered one, figuring that was a price worthy of trying it out. The next day, I got an email canceling my order, saying that they were actually 256 GB SSD models (still i5 and 8GB), but offering them for $350.

So I reordered and it's supposed to show up Thursday. It's currently in Dongola, IL.



Dongola.

[Jason]

I guess I should provide an update on the SurfaceBook...

I've now used it for two photo heavy trips, and its been a champ. Any reliability issues I've had (system wise) have been cleared up by various Windows updates. Adobe still has some work to do in supporting high DPI screens on the Windows side, and they also need to improve some touch/pen support. But they're getting there.

Still use it to read comics every once in a while, and my friend and I played various games on emulators for hours and hours during down time/flights :up:

My only real complaints about the SB is that the 'clipboard' could use some softer edges to make holding it for longer periods more comfortable, and general performance improvements (which will come in future generations, I assume). I'm not too upset about performance, I'm just used to a couple much faster desktops that are completely unfair comparisons.

[Yw-slayer]

Nice one. I might swap to that when the time comes to replace my SP3. But given the slow rate of Intel processor improvements, that may be in 3-4 years time...

[Jason]

Yeah, I think MS has stabilized things for the current Surface line finally... I didn't have many issues when I bought it, but definitely a few... the February update pretty much killed most of my bugs, and the updates after have made things even smoother. I kind of hope that MS continues to iron out kinks this year, instead of releasing a new model. I'd much rather see them take it a bit slower on updates, to focus on stable products that the public enjoys using.

Also, apparently Wacom and MS have made a deal and Wacom will be producing new 'pro' level pens for the Surface lineup. Unclear if that includes compatibility with SB/SP4, but I certainly hope so. I like the pen that MS includes, but I prefer the Wacom pens I've used with graphics tablets over the years.

[thesameguy]

That's really good news - I think that sort of native Wacom compatibility would be a significant selling point for a lot of folks.

[TheBenior]

...and after originally being scheduled to arrive today, my refurb Surface Pro 2 is currently lost in transit, with a delivery date of "Pending."

Last scan was leaving a Chicago FedEx facility to get handed off to USPS on 17 May at 3:31 am, so it either got left on a FedEx truck or is in a USPS sorting center somewhere. :sadbanana:

[TheBenior]

... and the Surface showed up on my porch today via USPS. Now I'm thinking that the screw up was FedEx's.

Didn't get a chance to play around with it, had to go to the gym before work since it'll be a busy Friday night.

[TheBenior]

Surface works, upgraded to Windows 10 once I signed into my MS/Windows/Outlook/Hotmail/Whatever account and connected to my wireless network, which went pretty quickly.

Initial thoughts:
-SP2 is noticeably thicker and heavier than the wife's SP3
-Enter key on the touch keyboard initially didn't work. This was eventually resolved by disconnecting and reconnecting the keyboard. After I uninstalled and reinstalled the keyboard drivers, of course.
-SP2 seems pretty smooth and fast running Windows 10.
-Either I really need to learn the quirks of the Touch cover keyboard, or it just sucks. I'm leaning towards getting the Type Cover. Wife has the SP3 version, and it seemed fine to me in my limited use of it.

[Jason]

How are you finding using Windows 10 primarily as a touch device? Or are you using the cover mostly?

Every time I use the 'clipboard' on the Surface Book, I kind of get frustrated that things aren't better set up for touch. Definitely needs multitouch gestures built in or something. But then again, I'm comparing to iOS (and limited Android) experiences, which were built from the ground up as touch OSes.

[TheBenior]

I've mostly used the cover so far, apart from using it while reclined.

[thesameguy]

Every time I use the 'clipboard' on the Surface Book, I kind of get frustrated that things aren't better set up for touch. Definitely needs multitouch gestures built in or something. But then again, I'm comparing to iOS (and limited Android) experiences, which were built from the ground up as touch OSes.

What sort of issues are you having with the clipboard? I've not really run into any issues.

[Jason]

I think it'd benefit a lot from multitouch gesture support.

Example: There's no quick way to change from app to app, you have to swipe right from the left edge to open up the switcher. But if you're using the keyboard with trackpad, you can just swipe left or right with three fingers, and go back and forth between apps. iOS does this pretty good with iPads.

I have an add-on for my SB that does some stuff, but MS should do this at the system level so there's better support.

Other stuff is mostly related to apps not all being built for touch support. Chrome really isn't fantastic as a touch browser, but Edge doesn't support plugins (soon, though?).

Touch detection isn't small enough sometimes, which makes tapping certain things in certain applications difficult.

All in all, they're minor annoyances, but a variety of QoL stuff that MS and app developers are hopefully working on.

[thesameguy]

I see what you're saying. A lot of this stuff actually existed in 8, and might exist in tablet mode on 10, but is removed from the desktop environment because, well, I guess it was assumed you'd use it as a desktop. Swiping forwards/Backwards in IE is one of those things I really liked in 8, but is gone in 10 unless you're in tablet mode. I definitely agree MS needs to put some work into making the desktop UI more touch friendly. A control panel applet that enabled or disabled gestures in the desktop would be a major plus.

[Jason]

I use Tablet Mode when using it as a tablet. I appreciate the changes that do take place when switching it on, I just feel they could improve on it. But I understand its easier said than done since its also a desktop OS.

[thesameguy]

Either way, I definitely agree. I suppose it's one of those unexpected challenges when trying to make The One OS. TBH, I didn't expect touch screens and hybrid tablets to take off quite as well as they have. I thought it would be a much slower transition, especially with all the inertia behind the ipad. But it does seem like Windows 10 on touchscreen devices has gotten a fair amount of traction. They better get their ass in gear!

[Jason]

For those of you that wish to read Comixology comics on your Surface/Win10 Tablets but don't want to use the shitty web interface... you can 'backup' your purchased comics to use in another app (I use Cover, fantastic imo) via a Chrome extension:

https://github.com/Cortys/comixology-backup

Edit: Should add, this is probably legal in the strictest sense. But hey, if they aren't going to allow me to read the things I purchase in a reasonable manner, then fuck it.

[Random]

Swiping forwards/Backwards in IE is one of those things I really liked in 8, but is gone in 10 unless you're in tablet mode. .

I still, after many months with a new tablet, try to do that in Chrome (edit: on my Nexus9) occasionally. :lol:

[Jason]

It works in Chrome on my SB

[Random]

Yeah, it's a Win8/10 thing. Edited my post for clarity. :)

[Jason]

Ooooh :up:

Weird that its not in Android... its a thing on iPads too. O.o

[Kchrpm]

Posting the Lenovo Yoga Book here as well, because it will be available with Windows 10.

The Lenovo Yoga Book is...well, it's a 10" hybrid tablet, except instead of flipping out a keyboard, you flip out a Wacom-style drawing tablet...with an illuminated keyboard under the surface.

http://bgr.com/2016/08/31/lenovo-yoga-book-hands-on-release-date-specs-photos/

http://cdn.bgr.com/2016/08/bgr-yoga-book-3.jpg

http://cdn.bgr.com/2016/08/bgr-yoga-book-2.jpg

http://cdn.bgr.com/2016/08/12_yoga_book_painting_creat_mode_portrait_drawing_ pad.png

http://cdn.bgr.com/2016/08/yoga-book-windows.png

[Random]

That makes me :erm:

I thought one of the selling points of the Surfaces, etc, was that you could do artwork on it without the extra input device. :?

edit: I guess the transcribing pen is pretty cool.

[thesameguy]

Anybody use the Surface 3 much? I need a pair of ~10" tablets... they don't have to do much - the M-5Y71 (1.2GHz) CPU + 4gb in my Venue Pro seems to be plenty. 64gb of storage is excessive. I don't want a Pro anything because the extra size is a liability. I am concerned about the slow-ass Atom x7-Z8700 and how it behaves in real life.

[Yw-slayer]

My IT guy has a Surface 3 for basic IT support. I think it's probably OK for stuff like that.

[TheBenior]

My buddy with a Surface 3 wishes that he'd sprung for the Pro model, but I don't know if he was trying to keep 30 open browser windows or what.

I'm pretty satisfied with my Pro 2, which can be found under $300 in refurbished form.

[thesameguy]

Hmm... I hadn't considered a Pro 2, but that's a good call. Are you running Windows 10 on it?

The thing I need to do is a singular .NET based UI for a SQL database. Being .NET it's a little bloated, but it's hardly intensive. It runs a little slow on a Core2Duo E7500 and beyond perfectly on that Core M-5Y71, so somewhere in the middle is fine. Since the application is essentially handheld, going to a more powerful Surface but with a 13" screen would be a problem.

The SP2 is around $250 it seems, a 4gb/128gb S3 is about $350, so not a huge price spread... but it does mean trading a 4th gen Core i5 for an Atom, which kinda sucks. Neither is like really expensive - I guess I could flip a coin and if it doesn't work out get the other. I was hoping Dell still had Venue Pro 10s in the Outlet, but no such luck. I've been testing with mine and it's about a perfect intersection of features.

[TheBenior]

Yes, Win10 runs fine. I did the free upgrade to Win10 as soon as I got it. I've been pretty satisfied with the performance, but I'm mostly web browsing with it. I had my factory charger die fairly quickly, which was apparently a shitty design since they changed it for the SP3. The aftermarket one I bought on Amazon is trucking along fine.

I wouldn't mind the thinner profile, lighter weight, and bigger screen of the SP3, but the $250 price was right for my refurb 256GB SP2.

[thesameguy]

Word... how is battery life? Sounds like your use isn't ultimately much different from my intended use.

[Tom Servo]

Man, for that price, it sounds like it is heavier but significantly better than my Nexus 9.

[TheBenior]

Battery life seems generally good, but I only use it at home, so I'd put more faith in comparison tests than my experiences if you're using it on-the-go.

Every once in a while it fails to go in to sleep mode when I tell it to, then when I use it again several hours later after not being on the charger, the battery is almost dead. I don't know if that's a Surface/SP2/Win10 thing or what. If I do a full shutdown, that works every time. Other annoyances: Sometimes the keyboard doesn't register after I open it up, but disconnecting and reconnecting always fixes it. After waking up from sleep mode, occasionally the volume buttons don't work. The on-screen volume control works, and eventually it seems to sort itself out to where the buttons work again.

[thesameguy]

I think any non-4 I end up with is going to be a refurb, and I'm kinda hesitant on expecting as-new battery like from a multi-year-old refurbished item.

It only needs maybe 3-4 hours of battery, but it's always hard to extrapolate as-tested life to as-used life. A shocking number of variables here for such a simple task!

[Yw-slayer]

My SP3, after a massive hard reset which somehow ended up as a battery refresh, still gives me around 3.5 hours.

[thesameguy]

Hmmm... that's cutting it close. I WISH I COULD FIND ANOTHER VENUE PRO!

[thesameguy]

I made the call on a S3... the 4gb/128gb version. It was $350 in refurb form from microsoftstore.com - I went with it due to ongoing availability of the dock and the type cover... neither of which I purchased but might if they work out. Hopefully these guys do what I need them to... I will be interested to see how they compare speed-wise vs. the VP... maybe not in any sort of objective way, but at least as I'm using them.

[Yw-slayer]

Congrats! Should be alright.

In other words, I have ordered a Dell P4317.

[thesameguy]

That's a nice display - I installed a trio of them at a doctor's office to display MRIs, etc. for patients. What's crazy is that even at a grand, they're still cheaper than traditional "medical imaging displays" which might be 2-3x that... and for this application bring nothing to the party.

[Yw-slayer]

Yeah, right? Going to put my 2715 (or whatever model it is) in portrait mode and pass my 2407 to a colleague.

Also, at usd705 I just couldn't resist.

[thesameguy]

I am just getting one of the 3s finished up for a test. I had to upgrade to 10 Pro, and that introduced some problems... I think because the 10 Pro choked when trying to add features from a 10 Home restore partition. Pointing add/remove features to a flash drive source of 10 Pro got things moving, so it seems a possible explanation. "Just Windows 10" is tangibly slower on the Surface 3 than my Venue Pro, which is not much a surprise. It's not something that would get in anyone's way I don't think, but I can see how it might lead to slowdowns elsewhere. Not a problem here - I think the application I need to run is going to be absolutely fine.

[TheBenior]

After 15 months, my Surface Pro 2 Type Cover has failed. It still lights up, but the keys and track pad only work occasionally at best. Until a new one arrives, I'm being reminded of how much the included Touch Cover sucks.

[SportWagon]

For those of you that wish to read Comixology comics on your Surface/Win10 Tablets but don't want to use the shitty web interface... you can 'backup' your purchased comics to use in another app (I use Cover, fantastic imo) via a Chrome extension:

https://github.com/Cortys/comixology-backup

Another gtxf mention of github.

[Freude am Fahren]

So I've been looking at getting a tablet since I'll be traveling a lot, and want something mostly for entertainment, and some minor productivity.

I was originally thinking just a Samsung android tablet (new S4 maybe). Then I started looking at the Surface Go, then saw that the Surface Pro is on sale. The i5 128GB version with a platinum keyboard for $799. After buying a keyboard for the Go, it's only about $150 more for a lot more performance. I went to best buy to have a look, and actually like the slightly bigger form. I thought they were bigger, but it's just slightly smaller than my current (2009) laptop, so no issues with fitting in my current bags. Felt a bit heavy, but not cumbersome.

However, when I was there, I discovered the Samsung Galaxy Book 12", which is pretty similar. Found out there is a nearly identically spec'd model for only $50 more. Differences are the Samsung is a i5 7200U vs i5 7300U for the Surface, and the Galaxy has 256GB storage. Both have 8GB RAM and Win10 Pro, and come with a keyboard, though I think the Surface's is better. Samsung comes with a pen, Surface has the kickstand.

I love the AMOLED display, but I worry about longevity. Surface has slightly more resolution. Samsung has two USB-C, which is also how it charges. Surface has one old school style USB, and the surface dock thing.

Insights from any owners of either here?

[Yw-slayer]

I don't own the Samsung. I do have 2 Ipad Pros and an Ipad Air 1. I sold all my old Nexus tablets. I still have a Surface Pro 3 which I use at home when I'm pottering around/mobile and can't/don't want to sit down in front of my desktop.

Admittedly the main reason I did so was because PDF viewing/annotation apps are smoothest, fastest, and the least clunky on iOS compared to on Android/Windows tablets. I know this, at least as of late 2013, because I bought all of them and tried to use them for a large trial in late 2013 (Drawboard for Windows is the closest one gets to Goodreader with tabbed views of the same document, or PDF Expert which has excellent file handling). With that said, while I'm sure the newer ones are better, and while it really pains me to say this, the ipad is still a great choice for entertainment due to the ios ecosystem, and I'd still go for that unless you really, REALLY need Windows or Android on your tablet, or a superior keyboard (which the Surface provides - but then just buy a notebook instead), or to sync tons of videos from home hard disk/home server all the time (but then just use Plex and install Plex for ios).

[dodint]

My Samsung Galaxy Tab S2 has been terrific since I got it almost two years ago. I hope it lives forever.

[Freude am Fahren]

I went with the Galaxy Book. Found a screaming deal. It's a spec they don't even list on the normal website, only their business site. i5, 8GB, 256GB, Win 10 Pro. All for less than a Surface Pro with less spec, or the Tab S4.

It's been great, HOWEVER, I'm not sure it was the right choice. It's a great piece of hardware, but I think the Tab would be better for a travel companion.

I did go try the S4 out in store. I like the size and android interface for a tablet much better. That said, is it really that much more useful than my S9+ to justify it? Probably not. It's also of course nowhere near as powerful (WHY only 4GB, and older processor, Samsung?). And the screen is super weird, like jelly looking when you scroll things.