The Boomstick Thread

[Godson]

Welp. So as school is drawing to a close. My FiveseveN is still on order after a year. Whatever.

My 300AAC still needs about 400 $ to be finished. No real need to get it finished yet.

I have been eyeing a Glockworx trigger kit for my G34, which will be purchased after I get money.



A former Nursing school classmate is wanting to go shooting for the first time. Should be a good time.



How about ya'll

[TheBenior]

I really need to restock on practice ammo as well as 45 ACP duty ammunition.

[overpowered]

I'm sure you were referencing Army of Darkness but when I saw the thread title it made me think of a Far Side comic where an animal refers to a gun as a boom stick and the other animal says "Boom stick! That my friend is a Winchester 30'06"

[Godson]

Sadly I have never seen the movie. (Or maybe that isn't a bad thing)

I was just relating it to what the Native Americans called guns in the early days. Or so local lore says they called them that.



I like your references better thought :)

[lostnight]

I bought my first gun a few years ago, a Marlin 795 semi-auto rifle. Then earlier this month, I bought my first pistol, also a .22LR semiautomatic, with a 10 round magazine, same capacity as the Marlin. I bought one extra magazine for the Browning and two extra for the Marlin.
http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n174/lostnight/browningincase.jpg (http://s112.photobucket.com/user/lostnight/media/browningincase.jpg.html)

I purchased both guns from Gander Mountain. I like the fact that they both use the same caliber ammo, keeping it simple and cheap. Been out to the range with the Browning once, feels really good. Going back on Friday with my friend Faith who has never shot before, good gun to start with.

[Godson]

Totally. I am going to start my friend with my .22 Mosquito, then see if they are comfortable to use my Glock 34.


.22LR pistols are sooooo much fun.

[lostnight]

Yes they are, especially when Gander Mountain gave me 2 boxes of CCI ammo, 375 rounds each, free with my purchase. We'll put a dent in that Friday.

[drew]

Now that I'm in a stand your ground state, I should re-stock my collection so I can shoot fuckers in the face for texting during previews at a movie theater.

[overpowered]

As long as they're not white.

[speedpimp]

Thing is Drew is color blind, so everybody is fucked.


Still have my Skeeter and still using the same box of ammo from when I bought it. It still doesn't like CCI Stingers worth a damn, but it supposed to go through Minimags faster than SLM through a vinyl collection.

[TheBenior]

Drew, Illinois is technically a stand-your-ground state by virtue of not having a duty-to-retreat law. We just didn't have concealed carry until this year.

[speedpimp]

But isn't Cook County still off limits for CC?

[TheBenior]

No, the state statute supersedes any local hand regulations, so even Chicago's gun registration as it pertains to handguns is no longer valid. Except for Chicago Police. They're still making us register handguns, presumably because they don't want to give up a potential reason to fuck with us.

Stupid local "assault weapon" regulations for long guns are still in effect, so this is illegal:

http://www.bushmaster.com/img/firearms/90289_XM15.jpg

And since this is technically a handgun, this is legal:

http://www.bushmaster.com/img/firearms/91020_XM15_Pistol.jpg

[speedpimp]

LOLZ.

[Godson]

I love idiotic laws...

[Godson]

I finished my 300AAC, It passes function test, I just need to get some ammo for it to run some shit down range.


It might also be sold. We shall see.

[overpowered]

Kids and machine guns. What could possibly go wrong?

http://www.sandiego6.com/news/national-news/9-year-old-accidentally-kills-range-instructor-with-Uzi-272908731.html

[Godson]

This isnt a political thread...

[overpowered]

I didn't post it with that intent.

I'm not anti-gun. However, I think it's idiotic to put a machine gun into the hands of a child.

[Rikadyn]

machine gun

machine pistol

[overpowered]

From the story:


Police identified the weapon as an Uzi, an Israeli-made submachine gun.

Also:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uzi


The Uzi (Hebrew: עוזי‎, officially cased as UZI) is a family of Israeli open-bolt, blowback-operated submachine guns. Smaller variants are considered to be machine pistols. The Uzi was one of the first weapons to use a telescoping bolt design which allows the magazine to be housed in the pistol grip for a shorter weapon.

[TheBenior]

It was a Micro-Uzi, which is about half the weight and has triple the cyclic rate of fire of the full-size Uzi. An 8 year old boy was killed firing one in 2008.

The Micro-Uzi would more accurately be described as a machine pistol than a submachine gun, which are traditionally pistol caliber carbines.

Granted, the submachine gun seems like a bit of an evolutionary dead end these days, having been replaced by short barrel rifle caliber carbines and PDWs like the FN P90 and HK MP7, but machine pistols are oddities along the lines of oviparous mammals or snakes that give live birth. They're difficult for grown men to control on full auto, let alone small children.

[overpowered]

The story doesn't say that this was a Micro-Uzi. There was a Micro-Uzi involved in a previous incident with an 8 year old boy who accidentally killed himself.

Is it being reported that this was also a Micro-Uzi by other sources?

The control issue is really my point.

[TheBenior]

It's visible in the partial video here. (http://www.bnowire.com/2014/08/26/update1-9-year-old-girl-shoots-kills-arizona-shooting-instructor/)

[tigeraid]

Or, maybe just maybe, there's no reason of any kind, in any scenario, for a 9 year old to ever use a machine gun.

[Rikadyn]

Dunno, I'd let a 9y/o shoot a BAR or m2...

[neanderthal]

Live by the sword....

[speedpimp]

Dunno, I'd let a 9y/o shoot a BAR or m2...

Heh.

[Rikadyn]

Heh.

Only way they're gonna shoot it is prone or seated.

[speedpimp]

Even then it'll be a handful. Watching a 9 yr old even try and carry a BAR would be interesting.

[Rikadyn]

It was a Micro-Uzi, which is about half the weight and has triple the cyclic rate of fire of the full-size Uzi. An 8 year old boy was killed firing one in 2008.

The Micro-Uzi would more accurately be described as a machine pistol than a submachine gun, which are traditionally pistol caliber carbines.

Granted, the submachine gun seems like a bit of an evolutionary dead end these days, having been replaced by short barrel rifle caliber carbines and PDWs like the FN P90 and HK MP7, but machine pistols are oddities along the lines of oviparous mammals or snakes that give live birth. They're difficult for grown men to control on full auto, let alone small children.


Friend has an airsoft version of the micro-uzi, it's gas propelled. It's RoF is high enough that it has muzzle climb and this is just a toy version of the damn thing.

[overpowered]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDwQ8DxsALA

1. The clerk should not have handed anyone a loaded weapon in the store.

2. The cop should have treated the gun as if it was loaded.

Double fuck-up.

[speedpimp]

What the fucking fuck? The cop racked the slide and chambered the round. It shouldn't even have been on the shelf with a loaded mag in it. Stupid Stupid STUPID on both parties counts.

[Alan P]

I've only ever handled weapons under supervision on a firing range but even I know that you always, and I mean ALWAYS double check (and then check again) the chamber is empty. Hell rack the slide 3 or 4 times at least.

[Godson]

Yup. You pick up a firearm; drop mag, rack slide back to VISUALLY verify empty chamber, then proceed with finger off trigger and safety on.

[shakes]

I finally got around to getting my posession and acquisition license application mailed off to the Feds, now I'm waiting for them to do their background checks. There's a shooting range within walking distance from the new house and they're accepting members. Now I have to figure out what kind of boomstick to purchase. For now I just want to do target shooting, so I'm leaning towards some sort of .22 rifle. The inner child in me wants one of those guns that looks like a scaled down version of an AK-47 (e.g. Mossberg 715t). The grown-up in me says play it safe with something like a Ruger 10/22. I'm a bit nervous about the Mossberg and anything like it after talking to the instructor at my PAL course since according to him, our government has been cracking down on anything with more than a 10 round capacity as of late.

[overpowered]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXEK7rcqO-Y

[Sad, little man]

See, this, this right here is what terrifies me about most gun owners.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXEK7rcqO-Y&feature=youtu.be&t=1m45s

[Godson]

That's jerry miculek. What is so Scarry about that?

[overpowered]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerry_Miculek

It should also be noted that that particular gun is going to cost you at least $10k. People with expensive guns like that are probably not the ones you need to worry about, unless maybe if they stole them.

[Yw-slayer]

He does go on for way too long, but it's just a guy who's enthusiastic about the gun.

[speedpimp]

At least he shows some enthusiasm, unlike Jim Scouten(host of a few different shooting sports shows and Car and Driver TV).

[overpowered]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tivjOK7hAOM

[dodint]

I haven't fired a single round since moving to Wisconsin. It's almost as if moving away from 35,000 Marines just sucked the desire to be weapons proficient right out of me. Also could be that I moved to a neighborhood with fewer meth labs.

[drew]

Welcome home, Nate :)

[dodint]

Cheers.

I was on a motorcycle trip recently and the only thing bad that happened the entire time happened in northern Indiana. Thought of you. ;)

[drew]

Hah. I was just there a few weeks ago to hand over the keys to the house (which is sold now).

We drove up there last summer too. That's about as often as I'm there anymore, and every time I am there, it reminds me why I'm 1200 miles away now (although, I wouldn't mind moving back to Chicago, if a job opportunity came along).

[dodint]

Actually, terrible things happen to me in N.Indiana all the time. When I moved to WI I destroyed a gas pump with the trailer I was towing behind my moving truck, in Lafayette. The clutch cable I alluded to above happened just north of there, in Delphi.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/c56UKiIyG73bRi2T1ccD9NMi7OeV6cAW88QBi5YCGW5B5dc8cD Iav0csO1zT8y-lwXHdwCq-ONkMbHKGBO-avLOHVcdUP966h38LvvWBDStu4U6jwBmp2117mU3hWgPHGqx2k M_siE-5ASe9U_jxFDIC3OdUmlj1HsPex4uLNPwi4X5PeZ81rsyG2GMZE znw8iPtWeYOXDVqW90hrwvSj9Rx6LjeBsk_tgzhywfm0e-3aUf5-Mxt7TnLaB6gXiHF4pIqv_tKeTLw4Xvf5NHGMrccxhL058r4gbt OteXBpE2zeg9Va2EGGi_Y9aLApgTRfG3WSow4tXYjfcykizReM qejc-tOWtrOsv-L4p8J3K2YDaJPSE_jqVYHTLa0lHft9yFTWyy2scw6pAftNSyLO q-eix7vh220XkAp43yOQwSkDwHhPju78Rfjre5izHrWVX1rdqlMV uiK81GK0iFC_15MRFUibJw5FE6W-5zOp_foNWWbbBPz1ZYZKURjwK7YWhu_Glz0s1FrlCfngEK77dW NLqGtCGsv2WY3IAI2YWAVfTI6nM5aPRP0SIS4gAt7cECUHojsB iQdM8PW6j1RozKD9uh6sB0=w1000-h562-no

I would actually go out on a limb and say MWGTP01 was the only thing good to ever happen to me in Indiana (the speeding ticket was in Ohio ;)).

[drew]

Jesus. You may be right, IN wasn't very kind. :)

[TheBenior]

Tried out a Mossberg 930 JM Pro autoloading 12 ga shotgun, which has a 9 shot magazine tube and is mainly intended for 3-gun competitors.

Though it's been a looooong time since I fired a pump-action 12 ga shotgun to compare it too, recoil wasn't bad, allowing for fairly quick follow-up shots. Also, if one fires quickly enough, onlookers can see flame coming out of the ejection port. Function was 100% perfect with both full and reduced power 00 buck.

[novicius]

Here's a question: why aren't guns silent? What's the penetrating power of a subsonic handgun round?

I mean the lethality, speed and quantity of kills one can achieve with a "sportsman" AR, I wonder why they're not quieter, too.

[Kchrpm]

1) Because they're powered by explosions
2) Because people usually like that they're in control of those explosions, and the sound is part of the experience

Note the same answers could be given about cars.

[novicius]

Ok but that only accounts for a certain percentage of buyers -- I wonder how big the "quiet gun" market would be...

[Kchrpm]

What would be the point? Generally, when I speak to gun owners, they want more stopping power. They want to take one shot and stop their target, not the ability to take multiple shots (on the same or multiple targets) outside of a competition setting.

[novicius]

Well until Ross or Nate or Tyler or somebody who actually knows the tech posts, you & I are just debating "what ifs". :)

[JoshInKC]

There are subsonic rounds - most .45 ACP is pretty well below the 1125ish feet per second necessary to break the sound barrier, but they're still pretty loud. The important thing to note is that .45 is about as big around as commonly used rounds get, and since "power" in a gun/round is determined by the mass of the bullet(usually measured in grains) and the speed at which it is going (feet per second) when it hits the target. Standard .45 rounds weight in at 230 grains, and have a very rough speed of about 850ish ft/sec and again, they're still pretty loud. So, to allow function to remain similar you need to increase the mass of the projectile - this is hampered by your ability to pack (whatever you consider an acceptable # of) rounds into something that you can hold and aim comfortably.
Rifles are a different beast - the whole point of a rifle is getting the projectile to go faster than a pistol - If you have a longer barrel, you have more time for powder to burn efficiently and push the projectile faster. This is why most rifle rounds are substantially smaller in mass than handgun bullets - for example, your AR probably fires 5.56mm or .223 caliber, and the bullet masses at a tiny 63 grain. This round moves at a rather quick 3000ish ft/sec. Compare that to the .45ACP above.

Also, sound suppressors used to be very popular in the US (you can see them for sale in old sears catalogues, &c.) primarily for use in target practice. They got restricted in the 1930's at the same time as machine guns. The thing about suppressors is that they can do two major things - use "wipes" to slow the bullet down below the sound barrier, and have chambered baffles (exactly like a car's muffler) to capture and slow the expanding hot gasses that are pushing the bullet. Usually they're bulky, have only a limited number of rounds before they need to be rebuilt, and not anywhere near as effective as movies would have you believe. Regardless, they make law enforcement and many civilians uncomfortable.

[speedpimp]

Back in 1997 my mom's house was robbed and one of the items taken was a Lorcin .380 pistol. Flash forward 19 years and she gets a call from the local police department asking if she wants her gun back. They recovered it two years ago in an arrest. She picked it up a week later and it was in the same condition that it had been when it was stolen.

[KillerB]

Picked up two S&W M&P15 Sport IIs for the family before the California ban goes into effect at the end of the year.

Never had a burning desire to own an AR, but an impending ban is a hell of a sales technique. Anyway, should be fun to do some target shooting. Not something I'd use for typical home defense, but might come in handy in the case of looting post-The-Big-One or generalized civil unrest.

Carlo - I don't have the in-depth gun knowledge, but anything that can impart that much acceleration in a split-second is going to generate a lot of noise.

[novicius]

So it's just straight physics at work, not just some sort of law?

Not that I'd want there to be near silent weapons out there, just curious as to why there aren't any. :)

[KillerB]

Yeah, I think so. If there was an effective way to make a silent gun, the US military would be all over it.

[Godson]

Another issue when a round goes sub sonic, is the ballistics and accuracy is greatly affected. Subsonic rounds do not cause cavitation like super sonic rounds. Sub sonic rounds are also more prone to wind, humidity, temperature, etc.

The issue with this is you have to be more accurate to get a kill shot on sub sonic than you do super sonic. Let me dig through some videos and I'll post up with a better and more in depth explanation.

[novicius]

Eh, but at ranges of handgun encounters, we're talking about 50' or less 90% of the time (I'm guessing).

But it just makes me wonder why a better subsonic round hasn't been developed and why better silencers (integral or external) haven't been developed. Market isn't there?

[KillerB]

Silencers are not easy to buy in the US - that probably doesn't help.


In the United States, taxes and strict regulations affect the manufacture and sale of suppressors under the National Firearms Act. They are legal for individuals to possess and use for lawful purposes in 42 of the 50 states. However, a prospective owner must go through an application process administered by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF), which requires a federal tax payment of $200 and a thorough criminal background check. The tax payment buys a revenue stamp, which is the legal document allowing possession of a suppressor. The 8 states that have explicitly banned any civilian from possessing a suppressor are: California, Delaware, Hawaii, Illinois, Massachusetts, New Jersey, New York, Rhode Island and the District of Columbia. The states of Connecticut and Vermont allow for suppressor ownership but prohibit using suppressors while hunting.

[JoshInKC]

Partially, it's that silencers are entirely outlawed in 8 or 10 states, and the others all require special licensing, similar to fully automatic weapons - full background checks, special permission from the local sheriff, etc. This inherently limits the market.

I honestly don't know what a better subsonic round would look like. If you were to manufacture a gun with an integrated silencer, and rounds to go with it, then you could theoretically get the round to have somewhat optimal ballistics and a top speed just a hair below the speed of sound. Although that would be a problem, because the speed of sound drops with increased height above sea level.

Finally, like tyler mentioned above - the more time a bullet spends in the air, the more things can effect it negatively, like gravity, the rotation of the earth, &c. Therefore, all things being equal, a faster bullet is inherently more accurate than a slower one.

[Godson]

Ok. This is going to be kinda long winded, and *might* have some inaccuracies , but none of it is intentional, and trying to avoid getting into the crazy high end talk. I will have videos to help explain also, and all ballistics information is from wikipedia. When talking about ballistics information, it is pretty reliable and will be within tolerances for this discussion. There is variances in bullet weight, so that is something that cannot be changed.



Here's a question: why aren't guns silent? What's the penetrating power of a subsonic handgun round?

I mean the lethality, speed and quantity of kills one can achieve with a "sportsman" AR, I wonder why they're not quieter, too.

Guns are loud due to 3 main factors. As Keith pointed, the first one is an explosion of a combustible and heavily expanding powder. This creates a loud report we all know as a gunshot. The second, depends on how fast the projectile (bullet) is traveling. If it is going faster than the 1125 ft/s (speed of sound) you can have the round creating a supersonic crack. Third and final, the action of the gun itself isn’t quiet. It is actually quite loud, especially when talking about rifles.

In this video, you have a suppressed AR15 variant firing a subsonic 7.62x35 (also known as the 300 AAC or 300 Blackout).

https://youtu.be/Q5ALp8-d3dQ?t=119
The only thing you are hearing is the action of the gun in this clip and the round hitting the dirt/target.

So what I will do now is show you a video when the ammo used is not subsonic but still has the suppressor Note the supersonic crack and how much louder it is just from the velocity increase.

https://youtu.be/Q5ALp8-d3dQ?t=412

Lastly we will add the report in:

https://youtu.be/Sd_2tcj7P4s?t=104

Notice the difference in sound is primarily in the supersonic crack. It is still muzzled down a decent amount by the suppressor, but the secret is really a combination of all the factors. Sub sonic rounds fired without suppressors are still loud. Just not as much so.



What would be the point? Generally, when I speak to gun owners, they want more stopping power. They want to take one shot and stop their target, not the ability to take multiple shots (on the same or multiple targets) outside of a competition setting.

The stopping power misnomer is key and number one on weak bantering discussions. However, shot placement is King. Bullet weight is important on penetration of things like windshields, etc. I’ll let Ross or Nate talk about penetration if they want, I’ll touch on the stopping power talk further down.


There are subsonic rounds - most .45 ACP is pretty well below the 1125ish feet per second necessary to break the sound barrier, but they're still pretty loud. The important thing to note is that .45 is about as big around as commonly used rounds get, and since "power" in a gun/round is determined by the mass of the bullet(usually measured in grains) and the speed at which it is going (feet per second) when it hits the target. Standard .45 rounds weight in at 230 grains, and have a very rough speed of about 850ish ft/sec and again, they're still pretty loud. So, to allow function to remain similar you need to increase the mass of the projectile - this is hampered by your ability to pack (whatever you consider an acceptable # of) rounds into something that you can hold and aim comfortably.
Rifles are a different beast - the whole point of a rifle is getting the projectile to go faster than a pistol - If you have a longer barrel, you have more time for powder to burn efficiently and push the projectile faster. This is why most rifle rounds are substantially smaller in mass than handgun bullets - for example, your AR probably fires 5.56mm or .223 caliber, and the bullet masses at a tiny 63 grain. This round moves at a rather quick 3000ish ft/sec. Compare that to the .45ACP above.

Also, sound suppressors used to be very popular in the US (you can see them for sale in old sears catalogues, &c.) primarily for use in target practice. They got restricted in the 1930's at the same time as machine guns. The thing about suppressors is that they can do two major things - use "wipes" to slow the bullet down below the sound barrier, and have chambered baffles (exactly like a car's muffler) to capture and slow the expanding hot gasses that are pushing the bullet. Usually they're bulky, have only a limited number of rounds before they need to be rebuilt, and not anywhere near as effective as movies would have you believe. Regardless, they make law enforcement and many civilians uncomfortable.

To continue on this train of thought, we will look at the .45 ACP with a 5in long test barrel.

With the super common 230gr projectile,it travels at ~830-900 ft/sec and produces ~350-420 ft-lbf. This creates a nice “hard hitting” round from a pistol and is easily controllable compared to other rounds like the 40 s/w, 10mm, and .50 AE. As mentioned by Stabs, due to it’s heavy weight, suppressing it is easy, and doesn’t really affect the way the firearm acts or the way the projectile hits. See below.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwAbIdamK2A

Notice how the bullet just cuts through the ballistics gelatin? It would do a pretty good job of cutting through flesh, damaging major vessels, organs, and bone. Similar results can be expected from a suppressed round due to the bullet already being below the speed of sound (1125 ft/sec).

Let us go back and look at that 300 BLACKOUT round fired from a 16in barrel.
Most common weight for subsonic in this caliber is the 220gr, which travels ~1,010 ft/sec and produces ~500ft-lbf. Right here you are probably noticing that a similar bullet weight is traveling roughly 150ft/sec faster and has ~80-150 more ft-lbf. This alone is cause by one major thing. Barrel length. I will not go down that rabbit hole, as it will muddy the water a little bit. The basic rule applies, longer barrel equals faster projectile and a faster projectile means more energy transfer. More energy transferred equals the harder the “hit”

Take a look at the way this projectile literally cuts through the gelatin.

https://youtu.be/5CGqo3qD6LE

It is like a hot knife through butter up until 14 inches deep. Keep in mind the .45 ACP round is a different projectile design, a form of “hollow point”, and is considerably larger diameter. .45ACP is 0.45in while the 7.62x35mm is 0.3in. This is evident in the cavity which is cut in the different videos.

Remember, both are subsonic, but the 300AAC deals more force, but to a smaller area.

Now we will jump back to the question of a quiet gun.

You want the hardest hitting round you can run so you don’t have the try and hit the heart, aorta, great vessels, spine, etc in a dangerous environment. Because it is damned hard to be accurate when in duress. Hunting in it’s own right is hard, and we have all played war games, which make handling a gun look easy. Imagine trying to be super accurate with Mr Meth rushing you and you are trying to drop him before he gets to you. You want to hit him hard and fast right? Right.

Let us now look at a super-sonic 300AAC round fired from a 16in barrel. A 125gr “hollow point” runs ~2,200-2,300ft/sec and produces ~1,400ft-lbf of energy transfer. Almost 3 times that of the sub-sonic counterpart fired from the same exact barrel length.

What that looks like is something like this:


https://youtu.be/Q3BxAsDR3pE

Notice you get what is called cavitation. This is when the force of the projectile hits a target so hard it causes damage to areas it doesn’t even touch, or come close to touching for that matter. What this means, is I don’t need to be as accurate to drop Mr. Meth. I just need to hit center mass a few times for a much more devastating result. Also notice the gelatin literally leaves the table it is on.


So it's just straight physics at work, not just some sort of law?

Not that I'd want there to be near silent weapons out there, just curious as to why there aren't any. :)

I’ll leave at one last video just to show the point even more.


https://youtu.be/d0nIc7zY7uM

The red blob on the left of the screen is to mimic the heart. It is pretty far forward I know, but play along. The piece of dowel rod on the right is the spine. Bullet travels right past both without causing any damage to them. Probability of this happening is low, but imagine this same scenario with the super-sonic round. Massive amounts of trauma. Suppressors also cost money, along with the use of certain types of projectiles, and special types of powders to help keep the report as quiet as possible, along without having a flash.

I hope this answers your questions, and gives you some insight without going on and on.

TL; DR quiet guns, and ammo, force you to be more accurate and deal out less damage for the same amount of work

[TheBenior]

Eh, but at ranges of handgun encounters, we're talking about 50' or less 90% of the time (I'm guessing).

But it just makes me wonder why a better subsonic round hasn't been developed and why better silencers (integral or external) haven't been developed. Market isn't there?
Subsonic handgun rounds aren't really uncommon. Most 45 ACP is subsonic, as are the heavier 9mm and 40 S&W rounds.

However, most of the noise is caused by the rapid expansion of gases, not the bullet breaking the sound barrier. The typical subsonic 230 gr 45 ACP round being fired is going have a louder report than a typical 115gr supersonic 9mm target load. The 45 doesn't break the sound barrier, but the volume of powder and the attendant gases make for a louder sound. Slower, fatter, heavier bullets also tend to be less accurate. 230gr 45 will drop more inches over a given distance than 115gr 9mm. It's not a huge concern for self defense ranges, but is an issue for hunting and target shooting.

So really to make things quieter, you need sound suppressors, which work very well with subsonic ammo. However, as others have posted, they're either banned outright in some states or a lot of hoops have to be jumped through to get them.

One can still run into issues with subsonic ammo, however. Some guns won't reliably function due to the lower recoil or gas volume, which can require things like recoil spring weight, gas port settings, and recoil buffers to be tailored for the specific loads. Then there can also be lethality issues. Up until around 2004, the CPD used a 147 gr subsonic 9mm hollow point to reduce the chances of over penetration where a bullet punches straight through a body and risks harming unintended targets. Unfortunately, the state of subsonic 9mm bullet design wasn't reliable enough back then. There were issues where the bullets didn't expand, particularly in the winter when people wear heavy clothing that could plug up the hollow point causing expansion failures. This ironically made overpenetration more likely, making the bullet less dangerous to the intended target and potentially more dangerous to bystanders.

[Godson]

Oh yeah. I forgot to touch on over penetration. Sub sonic rounds typically go through more objects due to the increase in mass and slower projectile velocity.

When a round is traveling at 2200+ ft/sec, the chance for the projectile to turn into shrapnel increases as speed increases. When a projectile shrapnelizes (is that even a word?) It has a lower chance of doing damage behind it.

The .223 is pretty well know. To tumble after contact. This increases damage pattern and can cause the projectile to separate.

Because of this, a round and the firearm must be matched to the purpose of the intended use.

A spec ops squad sneaking around at night could drop an opponent easily because they have the advantage of surprise and can aim carefully. But that same round wouldn't be good when you are in the middle of a field exchanging gunfire in broad daylight versus a bunch of guys when the super-sonic rounds would do the most damage.

[novicius]

TL; DR quiet guns, and ammo, force you to be more accurate and deal out less damage for the same amount of work
Great write-up Tyler! Thanks! :D :up:

As you say, shot placement is king -- so a .45 ACP Quiet Gun could still be considered "effective", just maybe not as effective as the smaller/faster rounds, correct? Any way to quantify that with existing data from studied shootings?

Overpenetration in civilian use is *mostly* considered "bad", no? Gross generalization?

[novicius]

One can still run into issues with subsonic ammo, however. Some guns won't reliably function due to the lower recoil or gas volume, which can require things like recoil spring weight, gas port settings, and recoil buffers to be tailored for the specific loads.
Well this is an engineering issue -- assume that said theoretical Quiet Gun is fully engineered to work with subsonic ammunition vs repurposing an existing weapon system.



Then there can also be lethality issues. Up until around 2004, the CPD used a 147 gr subsonic 9mm hollow point to reduce the chances of over penetration where a bullet punches straight through a body and risks harming unintended targets. Unfortunately, the state of subsonic 9mm bullet design wasn't reliable enough back then. There were issues where the bullets didn't expand, particularly in the winter when people wear heavy clothing that could plug up the hollow point causing expansion failures. This ironically made overpenetration more likely, making the bullet less dangerous to the intended target and potentially more dangerous to bystanders.
Would a slower, bigger bullet have these issues? Bullet design is as critical as the gun it's fired from, right? #assumptions

[novicius]

I honestly don't know what a better subsonic round would look like. If you were to manufacture a gun with an integrated silencer, and rounds to go with it, then you could theoretically get the round to have somewhat optimal ballistics and a top speed just a hair below the speed of sound. Although that would be a problem, because the speed of sound drops with increased height above sea level.
So design a heavy subsonic round that's quiet and effective at Pikes Peak? Physics will take care of the rest? ;)

[Godson]

I'll type up another response this evening with more info and more videos. Keep the questions coming.

[TheBenior]

Well this is an engineering issue -- assume that said theoretical Quiet Gun is fully engineered to work with subsonic ammunition vs repurposing an existing weapon system.
For pistols it can be as easy as changing a spring that gets pulled out every time you clean it. However, few manufacturers are going to sell pistols from the factory set up specifically that way so long as you have to pay a $200 tax on top of the suppressor and wait several months for ATF approval. Per suppressor. Ironically, despite stiffer regulations on acquiring firearms, suppressors are usually much easier to acquire in European countries.


Would a slower, bigger bullet have these issues? Bullet design is as critical as the gun it's fired from, right? #assumptions
Slow bullets may still have these issues. Non-hollow point 45 ACP will shoot straight through people, and non-hollow point 9mm will as well. Bullet design in the form of expanding/fragmenting rounds is the solution. However, nothing is 100% in the real world. The old 147 gr 9mm rounds I cited worked fine in ballistic gel tests from full size test barrels. Throw in real world variables like heavier clothing than was used in the test along with shorter barrels or looser chambers reducing velocity, and you can get hollow points falling to expand. Hollow point design is tricky. Usually there's an optimum velocity range. If the bullet gets pushed too fast via a longer barrel or hotter than factory handloads, the bullet expands but the petals get pushed back, which can result in a smaller bullet than over penetrates. If the bullet is too slow, the hollow point will fail to expand and be more likely to zip right through people.

[shakes]

After years of talking/thinking about it, I finally went out and purchased my first gun. I got a Remington 597. And while I went to the gun store originally wanting a Ruger 10/22, after seeing how much more they wanted for the Ruger, I went with the Remington. Ammo isn't too expensive (yet) and as far as I can tell, I can still purchase a high-capacity magazine. Gun has a 10 round magazine that comes stock. Canadian gun laws are somewhat vague still when it comes to magazine capacity. Certain guns have no magazine size limits, while others do.

[dodint]

shakes is a great name for a guy with a rifle. :lol:

Optics? 4x scope or iron sights for now?

Cool deal. I still don't own a proper rifle, just my grandfathers old single shot .22.

[shakes]

shakes is a great name for a guy with a rifle. :lol:

Optics? 4x scope or iron sights for now?

Cool deal. I still don't own a proper rifle, just my grandfathers old single shot .22.

Just the iron sights for now. I'm only planning to plink with it so we'll see how well I do without a scope. One of the things I like about .22s is that you can customize the crap out of them. They're like the Jeeps of the gun world. Everybody makes bolt-ons for them no matter what you're planning on doing.

[TheBenior]

I went to Las Vegas to attend SHOT Show 2018, the main shooting sports/industry trade show. Random thoughts followed by pictures:

-This show is effing huge. It basically takes up the whole 2.25 million sq ft Sands Expo Convention Center.

-LED flashlights are becoming increasingly commoditized, making me wonder how long Surefire's expensive flashlights can stick around. They're overpriced compared to Streamlights, let alone the Chinese off-brands. I'm guessing that all the LED components are made in the same few factories in China anyway.

-There are still too many AR pattern rifle makers (assemblers, really) out there. I expect a good amount to fail in the next few years.

-I got some free patches from booth girls at Evike (http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/IMG_20180124_155303970-920x518.jpg), who said, "AWWWW!" when I showed them the patches' destined location (https://scontent-dft4-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/16711922_10158161058715696_6851373321892787168_n.j pg?oh=8a79d83b9b1ed19bbd0f7b0542a3257b&oe=5AF29565).

-S&W still has no black, no manual safety 5" M&P 2.0 pistol, only the military trials (MHS program) failure FDE (Full Diaper Explosion) with a safety. The M&P 2.0 trigger is still kind of gritty compared to the competition, though maybe it gets better when broken in.

-The Glock 19X, a G17 length grip with a G19 slide is stupid. It's not even identical to the MHS submission since it doesn't have a manual safety. However, the Gen 5 G19 and 17 fit better in my hand and had better factory triggers than any Glocks I've handled.

-Checked out 2 Remington 10mm 1911s. One had the usual lat/rear delt workout of a recoil spring typical in 10mm 1911s. The other was shockingly easy to rack, and almost certainly had the wrong recoil spring in it. Cerberus/Freedom Group era Remington continues to have QC issues.

-Meprolight sights had a super hot girl working their booth the first day I went. She wasn't there the next day, it seemed that they had a whole new crew of Israelis that was all dudes. Their FT Bullseye sight (http://accurateshooter.net/pix/mepro1601.jpg) looked pretty neat and easy to acquire, but I'd need to shoot a pistol with one before dropping $200 (msrp) on a non-electro-optical sight.

-Green combat sights may be here to stay. I looked through a 1.5x ACOG, an EOTech, and a Meprolight RDS with green circle reticles, and they were easier to pick up than red, even against green backgrounds.

-Simple dot only red dot sights are less than ideal with my slight astigmatism, whether cheapies or expensive Aimpoints.

-I couldn't believe how many brands and importers there were for Turkish shotguns.

-The slide riding inside the frame rails on CZ-75s and their clones (EAA/Tanfoglio) result in a low bore axis, but also make the slides harder to pinch and rack. The ambidextrous safety on the CZ Scorpion results in it gouging your properly indexed finger when it's in fire mode regardless of what hand you use. Didn't fondle CZs as much as I'd like, because it seemed like everybody was filming there when I stopped by.

-DS Arms had some titanium receiver FALs. They were shockingly light for an FAL or .308 semi-auto rifle in general.

-We were all set to mock Oriskany Arms as another overpriced $3000+ 1911 maker, but then they told us that their entirely domestic made 1911s start at $750 and that took the winds out of our jackassery sails.

-The Israeli Weapon Industries Tavor X-95 has a decent trigger for a bullpup, which tend not to have great triggers due to long distances between the trigger and the fire control group in the back of the rifle. The Negev LMG was nice and lightweight compared to the FN MAG/M240 at 17 vs 25 lbs.

-H&K guys were kind of dickish. The VP9's paddle mag release isn't long enough, though other than that it's pretty nice. H&K also had some P2000s with the LEM trigger. Even by DA/SA standards, the DA trigger pull is phenomenally heavy (probably 12+lbs) and bad in general. My cousin told me to try it, and I literally asked, "Is this a joke?"

-Kriss Vector, which I've always thought was cool and futuristic looking in spite of semi-auto pistol caliber carbines, and arguably the full-auto submachine guns that they're based on being obsolete. Janelle loved the variant in Far Cry 3. I chose the stormtrooper white variant for better contrast against my dark shirt. My father made one of the reps take one apart in front of him.
2837

Zenith Z-5, a Turkish clone of the H&K MP5. Overpriced at $2300 given that the Turks paid off their H&K tooling decades ago, but I still like them for their 1980s cool factor:
2838

Steyr AUG, a rifle I've loved since the futuristic looks awed me when I saw it in Die Hard as a kid. The trigger is as terrible as I've heard, but I still want one.
2839

FN P90. I'd like one, even though in 5.7x28mm, they're not cheap to feed.
2841

S&W Model S&W500 Magnum seemed nicely made, but a bit on the small side:
2840

[Godson]

5.7 has gotten cheaper since one of the American companies makes ammo for them now

[dodint]

I used a knockoff Surefire on my M16, but I didn't have to shoot people so it wasn't that important.

[Freude am Fahren]

Whenever I see a bullpup gun, I just think 90's actions movie bad guy.

[speedpimp]

You are the second person I know that attended this year's SHOT. The other is a national officer for the RMEF. I would love to attend the show just once. How hard is it to get a pass if you're not a LEO, journalist or "in the business"?

[TheBenior]

It's not even easy as an LEO anymore unless your department officially sends you. The don't want a bunch of random cops without purchasing power filling it up. I went as an employee of my cousin, who's an FFL and also does concealed carry and other pistol courses.

[TheBenior]

5.7 has gotten cheaper since one of the American companies makes ammo for them now

Eh, still about 50% more than .45 ACP, which isn't exactly the cheap option in common defensive pistol calibers. FWIU, reloading is a PITA due to the dry film case lubricant on factory ammo and other issues.

[Godson]

Yeah. But it isn't 35$ a box of 50 anymore.

[TheBenior]

Oh, another observation from the show: .40 S&W is dying off really quickly. Very few 1911 makers are still making a .40 S&W model, and even newer duty pistols like the Gen 5 Glocks, Remington RP, and Ruger American have yet to come in .40 S&W variants.

Advances in hollow point design have largely reduced .40 S&W's advantages over 9mm to an extra inch or two of penetration and better auto glass performance. The first probably isn't worth the reduced capacity and extra recoil, the second is of questionable utility from a civilian concealed carry standpoint, and more and more police departments are adding prohibitions about shooting into moving vehicles. Bit of a shame for competition guys like my cousin, though. .40 S&W is easy to reload, versatile in loadings (easy to make either light practice ammo or major power competition loads), and used brass was easy to find from police departments, even if you typically had to resize the case to get rid of the Glock bulge.

[dodint]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5capbhKlVA

Neat.