Volkswagen XL1

[overpowered]

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2014-volkswagen-xl1-first-drive-review

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_1-litre_car

[novicius]

The XL1 should run 31 miles solely on electric power, says Mitze. But on the cold and rainy April day we drove it, the small, 60-cell, 5.5-kWh, 150-pound lithium-ion battery pack needed a recharge after only 22 miles. Recharging can be done with a 220-volt outlet in one hour or on the fly by the diesel engine.
A used Chevy Volt goes farther than this with four people, luggage and at 1/6th of the cost.

[overpowered]

Yes, but that's solely on electric power. Compare range with ICE engaged.

This is still pretty much a concept car, though they are selling small quantities. It will be interesting to see when they move the tech to something mass produced.

[KillerB]

Tatra should totally sue VW again.

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/38-Tatra_T77a_Limo-DV-08-CC_0005.jpg

[novicius]

Yes, it is more efficient than a Volt and has a longer max range. Yay for not stopping one or two more times during a long trip. :rolleyes: It also costs $100k USD more. That'll cover a lot of gas stops for the Volt.

It's lighter, smaller and seats only two people but my core complaint is that it's an expensive series hybrid that barely matches what we've got now. It's advancing tech but in the wrong direction: the typical consumer IMHO wants longer range on electric-only and faster recharging before falling back on the ICE; rolling 300-400 miles without refueling is plenty good, you should still stop, get out and walk around every 3-4 hours anyway (if not every hour), might as well fill up the tank while you're at it.

The moment you stop to plug it in for a meal/shopping/the night, the max range stat is effectively wasted.

[thesameguy]

There isn't $140,000 worth of technology in this car. I'm sure it's just VW proving their 1 litre car wasn't just a ten year running concept, but real progress towards a real production car. They just slapped a number on there they thought they could get from a few people and called it good. I'm reminded of the Segway, which has ended up getting beat out by competitors from China etc. that build an 80% as good solution for 20% of the cost. Maybe this is China's opportunity to sell cars here. :)

Edit: I am disappointed in this. When the XL1 was going to be on the market competing against Aptera I was all sorts of giddy, but then Aptera evaporated and the XL1 tripled in price and ended up Europe-only. Whatever.

[novicius]

Give me a series hybrid that costs $30k USD and can run 1 hour straight on electricity @ 70 MPH before kicking in the ICE. That's a series hybrid we can believe in.

[thesameguy]

For now, for me, I think I prefer the super-efficient single-mode approach... a twin turbo diesel shoveling around 1800lbs would probably yield 100+ mpg if not more, and that'd be fine with me. Hell, a highly aerodynamically optimized Fiesta on a 1000lb weight loss scheme and a 1.0l Ecoboost would probably close in on that economy, and that'd be fine.

I'm a little shocked that given the range anxiety that holds people back from pure electrics wouldn't prompt more manufacturers to offer different types of compromise cars... give us back our range at the expense of size or power. Seems weird that everyone has latched onto 3000lb 100-mile cars instead of investigating 2000lb 1000 mile cars.

[Kchrpm]

I'm not sure how much sound deadening you could stick in a 2000 lbs car with all the required safety features and expected structural rigidity and creature comforts. Consumers en masse aren't going to buy a car that gets 60 mpg that they think is built poorly due to road noise and cheap/lightweight materials and design.

[21Kid]

Didn't they do that with the CR-Z or the 2nd gen insight?
Some company took out the hybrid 'guts' and it actually got higher MPG due to the weight savings.

[novicius]

I'm a little shocked that given the range anxiety that holds people back from pure electrics wouldn't prompt more manufacturers to offer different types of compromise cars... give us back our range at the expense of size or power. Seems weird that everyone has latched onto 3000lb 100-mile cars instead of investigating 2000lb 1000 mile cars.
3,000 lbs. 100-mile electric sedans/5-doors (with an additional 200+ miles of ICE range extension) is the sweet spot. Make it happen, someone!! :angry:

[thesameguy]

Not sure that's possible without giving something serious up. You're talking about something like an 1980 Honda Accord with ~600lbs of batteries on it. I don't think 2014 America would accept a 1980 Honda Accord as a reasonable facsimile of a four place sedan, even if 1980 America did. The oldest 4-place cars I can think of that would pass for a modern 4-place car (but still on the small side) were already approaching or exceeding 3000lbs, and you'd still need to add the electric drive and modern safety equipment. The 500e has about equivalent interior volume to a 1980 Accord, and it's already over 3000lbs without an ICE. Alternatively put, you're talking about adding ~400ish pounds to a Nissan Leaf which already can't hit 100 miles. You'd need to move to really exotic materials to get that weight back down to the point of having 100 miles of electric-only range.

Either that or you end up with a boat like a Tesla. There just isn't the technology to build your dream. I'm sorry to tell you that. But my dream, my dream is achievable. Let's focus on that. :p

[novicius]

Bullshit! The Leaf hits it close enough, just add ICE and stir. :finger:

[thesameguy]

I'm kinda shocked nobody has mounted a 1.4l Ecotec on a trailer and sold it to electric car owners as a mobile charger.

[JoshInKC]

Great idea!
Like those trailers Plymouth sold for the Prowler.

[thesameguy]

I bet you could stick one of those on an electric car and not impact the HOV status in CA *and* not have to fuss with emissions, although you'd probably still be subject to California's industrial motor emissions requirements.

[Sad, little man]

I'm kinda shocked nobody has mounted a 1.4l Ecotec on a trailer and sold it to electric car owners as a mobile charger.
For the record, the Focus BEV does not allow you to charge it while driving. :|

Trust me, we have contemplated this at work.

[thesameguy]

I am pretty sure the Fiat won't either.

But that's just software. :p

[neanderthal]

I think TSGs solution is best.

A small, light, range limited electric car that suits your needs, and a ICE powered luxury sedan for longer trips.

I already have my E320 (he has his Jag) and all i'd need to do is add a small electric vehicle.

Truth is, right now, our battery capability right now is going to limit range, or increase mass when trying to counter the range limitations. Aero can only take you so far.

[21Kid]

It's difficult enough finding one parking space in Chicago... and that will cost you upwards of $200/month. Paying double that or even finding another parking spot somewhere would be damn near impossible.
And can you imagine if all 2+ million people in Chicago had two cars?!?

[Yw-slayer]

You're complaining about having to find a parking space that will cost you "upward of US$200/mth"???!!!?!?!?!!?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHA

[novicius]

I think TSGs solution is best.

A small, light, range limited electric car that suits your needs, and a ICE powered luxury sedan for longer trips.
Sweet jeebus, no. :lol: :down:

Range anxiety and recharge time are still a very real fear. The only way to get people to switch to PHEV's right now is to include onboard ICE -- but the only way to maximize your mileage is to have an initial small pool of miles that are electric-only. Plug in every night, drive the bulk of your commute on electrons. Considering the prices of cars today, odds are most people are going to have their old beater car and then the new series hybrid hotness.

The Chevy Volt, Ford C-Max Hybrid Energi, Toyota Prius Plug-In, all of these series hybrids exist, these are not concept cars. Over time, they (and newer cars) will become incrementally better at what they already do now.

[thesameguy]

I don't know Chicago at all, but it *seems* that in places like that - my experience being SF - you don't need a car on the daily. Your highway cruiser to visit relatives in far off places is your only car, and some combination of human-powered vehicles, mass transit, and loaner progams (CityCar, ZipCar, etc.) fill the rest of the gap - including solving parking. If I lived in SF, I'd probably do exactly what my friend did - store my cars in a coop warehouse and not use them but a few days a month. The idea of not having to own a commuter-mobile is incredibly appealing to me!

LA is weird because it's so spread out and there is shit for area-wide mass transit. You really do need a car there. Still, my cousin and her SO both bought Fiat 500es right after I did (I think they saw a post on FB) and they aren't having issues having only two 90 mile cars in their family. They're doing fine a few months in, but still have some range anxiety. They would be much better served by a 100mpg gas or diesel machine, if one existed.

I think there are applications for a wide variety of vehicles with varying motive powers and features. I guess the issue is that the automotive industry can't support companies selling hundreds or even thousands of vehicles. If you can't move five figures, there's no point in even starting. Maybe there is where something like GM's old Hy-Wire concept fits in - body modules that can plug into flexible power modules - and then you make a diesel twin module, a series module, and a full-battery module and sell a group of bodies ranging from super-aerodynamic 2-seaters to boxy cargo carriers to go on top. I'm sure there are significant engineering hurdles there, but I think until power source technology makes a quantum leap - especially with batteries - this is the only way we'd get a large variety of more right-sized transportation built.

aka, it'll never happen.

[21Kid]

*I* personally don't own a car at all. We do use zipcars for roadtrips and the like, however.
YW, see above, I have no idea what the acutal costs are. I was just guessing. From what I've heard, actually *finding* a spot is the most difficult part.

[thesameguy]

The Chevy Volt, Ford C-Max Hybrid Energi, Toyota Prius Plug-In, all of these series hybrids exist, these are not concept cars. Over time, they (and newer cars) will become incrementally better at what they already do now.

That's fair to say of course, but "over time" is a pretty big variable... Nissan pumped mad money into the Leaf to add 2 miles to its range. The modern plug-in Prius isn't much better than the garage plug-in conversions people were doing almost a decade ago.

It might very well not matter... I guess it depends on one's own personal fear of energy shortages and environmental catastrophes. It just seems that we have the technical ability to make some real improvements right this second, and the thing that is holding is back is conventional expectations of vehicles... expectations that I really don't think apply to the vast majority of the driving world. I think if we could shift expectations, we'd find it quite easy to push off our own, inevitable demise. :p

Edit: On that note, I'd like to see a head-to-head comparison of the XL1 versus, say, a 1965 Cortina or Beetle or other random, 50 year old small car. I'll bet all the OP author's complaining about it's stupid dimensions would apply to them as well. Except for a couple decades, those setups seemed pretty darned reasonable and proved totally viable to a large group of people.

[novicius]

That's fair to say of course, but "over time" is a pretty big variable... Nissan pumped mad money into the Leaf to add 2 miles to its range. The modern plug-in Prius isn't much better than the garage plug-in conversions people were doing almost a decade ago.
If 40 miles becomes 42 miles becomes 45 miles over the course of the Volt's lifetime, I'm fine with that. The goal should be 1 hour at max highway speeds, that's all I'm saying. Certainly doesn't have to be met in my lifetime.



I guess it depends on one's own personal fear of energy shortages and environmental catastrophes.
Shortages? I'm just looking for ways to get around $4-8 USD/gallon at the pumps for daily driving while still having the option to run on dinojuice for longer trips.

[TheBenior]

You're complaining about having to find a parking space that will cost you "upward of US$200/mth"???!!!?!?!?!!?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHA
The price of a parking spot varies pretty widely in Chicago. In the South and West sides, you just park in a vacant lot if you can't find street parking. Up by Bill where there are non-luxury high rises, it might be $200 a month. Where I live, it's mostly non-highrise multi-unit apartment buildings, and my uncovered, unsecured spot is $60 a month. 14 years ago, I used to park in a Near North/Downtown parking garage for work, and it was $225 a month. I'd be shocked if it was less than $500 a month now, as the daily rate works out to $1400+ a month these days, so it's probably around $800-1000 a month.

In some of the denser neighborhoods, you might not be able to get a parking spot for any price. In Streeterville, you can get monthly parking somewhere without too much difficulty. You may not like the price, but you can get it. In Ukrainian Village, Wicker Park, and Lincoln Park, if your building doesn't offer parking, you scour Craigslist and hope that somebody is renting a garage.

Public transportation here is probably better than any American city that's not on the East Coast, but that doesn't mean that it's good compared to a lot of European and Asian cities.

[neanderthal]

I don't know Chicago at all, but it *seems* that in places like that - my experience being SF - you don't need a car on the daily. Your highway cruiser to visit relatives in far off places is your only car, and some combination of human-powered vehicles, mass transit, and loaner progams (CityCar, ZipCar, etc.) fill the rest of the gap - including solving parking. If I lived in SF, I'd probably do exactly what my friend did - store my cars in a coop warehouse and not use them but a few days a month. The idea of not having to own a commuter-mobile is incredibly appealing to me!

LA is weird because it's so spread out and there is shit for area-wide mass transit. You really do need a car there. Still, my cousin and her SO both bought Fiat 500es right after I did (I think they saw a post on FB) and they aren't having issues having only two 90 mile cars in their family. They're doing fine a few months in, but still have some range anxiety. They would be much better served by a 100mpg gas or diesel machine, if one existed.

I think there are applications for a wide variety of vehicles with varying motive powers and features. I guess the issue is that the automotive industry can't support companies selling hundreds or even thousands of vehicles. If you can't move five figures, there's no point in even starting. Maybe there is where something like GM's old Hy-Wire concept fits in - body modules that can plug into flexible power modules - and then you make a diesel twin module, a series module, and a full-battery module and sell a group of bodies ranging from super-aerodynamic 2-seaters to boxy cargo carriers to go on top. I'm sure there are significant engineering hurdles there, but I think until power source technology makes a quantum leap - especially with batteries - this is the only way we'd get a large variety of more right-sized transportation built.

aka, it'll never happen.

Well, I imagine that if someone was to try and make a series of different drivetrains all available in a car (say, a VW Up!) with a regular ICE, a hybrid motor, and electric motor, then, I reckon, one could swap between powertrains as the need rises. Especially if they used a scalable battery pack; they could extend the range 40% by simply adding another battery module.

I'd be very interested in that vehicle.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Don't really care about it being hybrid. I'd love it if it can be made affordable to the mass and does close to 100mpg. I don't think that's too much to ask considering we can probably rearrange the 1st generation Honda Insight to have inline seating, using similar tech, it probably could do close to 100mpg because of the reduced aero drag alone!

I was really looking forward to a super high mpg commuter vehicle. I thought it's initial estimated $30k was high, but now it seems plain ridiculous. And with $100k+ worth of technology, it's still not very impressive... with that price tag, perhaps I'd be impressed if it does 2000mpg or something. ;) For now, I guess Elio is probably my best bet. Sub $10k car that does nearly 100mpg. Fingers crossed.

[21Kid]

What ever happened to super-capacitor technology? It sounded for a while like that was going to replace, or at least compliment batteries in electric/hybrid cars, due to their quick charging capabilities.

[novicius]

Keep in mind that used Volts are getting cheap. (http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?listingId=368121349) :up:

Remember, the battery packs in 1st gen Priuses/Pri-ii are still holding significant charge after 200,000 miles and beyond. (http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/news/2011/02/the-200-000-mile-question-how-does-the-toyota-prius-hold-up/index.htm)


If the battery ever did need to be replaced, it would run between $2,200 and $2,600 from a Toyota dealer, but it’s doubtful that anyone would purchase a new battery for such an old car. Most will probably choose to buy a low-mileage unit from a salvage yard, just as they would with an engine or transmission. We found many units available for around $500.

[Kchrpm]

What ever happened to super-capacitor technology? It sounded for a while like that was going to replace, or at least compliment batteries in electric/hybrid cars, due to their quick charging capabilities.
Still in development, it seems.

http://www.gizmag.com/toyota-details-yaris-hybrid-r/28827/

http://gizmodo.com/these-new-graphene-supercapacitors-could-finally-power-1463259679

[21Kid]

Cool :cool: Thanks. :D :up:

[animalica]

http://images.thecarconnection.com/lrg/2014-volkswagen-xl1-2013-geneva-motor-show_100420948_l.jpg

Last friday on my drive home I was passed by red XL1 on the Autobahn, of course with a license plate of Wolfsburg [WOB XL 143].

First thought it might be a Honda Insight until I saw the VW emblem and the license plate.
Very low and narrow.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I think XL1 is speed limited to 99mph/160kmph.

How fast were you going?