Solar Power

[overpowered]

I'm huge fan of solar power but some people are pushing for solar roadways:

http://elitedaily.com/news/technology/need-convincing-solar-roadways-worth-funding-video-will-help/604220/

I don't see it.

1. We have plenty of space on roofs for vastly cheaper traditional solar panels to provide more than enough power for the entire country. Space is not an issue for solar power in the U.S. We could also build solar power canopies over parking lots or even roads cheaper than this.

2. The cost of these panels is not stated but I'm thinking that making roads with these has probably got to be at least 100 times (probably more) expensive than asphalt, which we can't afford to maintain as it is.

3. I don't care what material you use, multi-ton vehicles driving over a road causes wear, and that means that these things turn smooth after a while, making traction a problem. Asphalt pavement maintains much of its friction as it wears because it's mostly sand and gravel, though it does get somewhat smoother. The panels will probably have to be replaced/resurfaced more often than asphalt.

4. I'm skeptical about the ability of these things to melt/drain snow in heavy snow conditions.

[Godson]

yeah. I agree with the canopy idea. It is just some science hoons attempt to garner attention on "look what I can think of" creating a draw for something that isn't really beneficial.

[KillerB]

Honestly, I thought the whole solar roadway thing was a joke or a hoax. No way it would work in any practical way.

[ettsn]

It's one of those plausible but impractical ideas that gets people talking. No way does it name sense, but this story has generated more discussion about solar and alternative energy methods recently than anything else, so in that respect, it works.

[harper]

The one thing that the solar roads DO address, though, is the question of our grid.

The current grid needs desperately to be upgraded. It wasn't installed and designed to meet 2014 standards, or even 1990 standards, but it's expected to do so. What better way to upgrade the grid than utilize roads? They go almost everywhere you want them and need the grid to go, it'd be easy to future-proof that installation as well, and they're going to be clear enough to soak in the sun most of the time.

It's certainly an intriguing idea. Of course it's not perfect now, but it's a really good idea to investigate. Might as well turn those stretches of blacktop into something good!

[Crazed_Insanity]

I kinda like the idea not for it's ability to generate power, but to make roads 'smart'. Today, we can already figure out traffic conditions simply by utilizing people's mobile phones, it'd be awesome if roads can take us a step further by redrawing lane lines in real time to easy flow of traffic. Of course if we end up having self driving cars first, then there'd be no need for such capability...

Regarding to wear and tear, surely this thing would be much easier to replace compare to repaving. Fixing pot holes also should be a lot easier.

And its higher cost hopefully can be offset by the power it produces...

[overpowered]

The one thing that the solar roads DO address, though, is the question of our grid.The grid issue is certainly important but it's possible to build conduit as they plan without spending all the extra money on all of those panels. It would still be super expensive but we probably will get to a point where the grid issue needs to be solved. We can only put it off for so long.

[neanderthal]

Much better to utilise the roofs that aren't covered with solar panels first than to try and cover the roads.

The infrastructure needs to be addressed though.

And, as said, it would probably be cheaper to just build a canopy over existing roadways with conventional solar panels than with these mega engineered, more expensive ones.

[G'day Mate]

I kinda like the idea not for it's ability to generate power, but to make roads 'smart'.
That's what I like too. I can imagine on a twisty hills road it would be able to detect me as a cyclist and have a rolling sign 100m behind me saying "CAUTION - Cyclist Ahead". Then when a car comes up behind me it would be able to tell them whether it's safe to pass based on whether there's anything coming the other way. That would be awesome.

[Drachen596]

any idea how much random stuff drips off the cars and trucks using the roads these days? there was a section of concrete poured in one of our incoming truck lanes at work recently. its been about a week and its already spotted with oil and grease off the big rigs. its not an area where the trucks are stationery either.

[overpowered]

And, as said, it would probably be cheaper to just build a canopy over existing roadways with conventional solar panels than with these mega engineered, more expensive ones.In the south west, cars get hot much of the year in parking lots. I would tend to want to go with solar canopies over parking lots a lot and not so much on roads. I don't really think we need them over roads to get to needed capacity. We probably don't even need them over parking lots to get capacity.

Maybe in the north east going over roads would make more sense to reduce snow on the road in the winter.

[Dicknose]

Not a great idea.
The cost of maintaining existing roads is huge - without worrying about greatly increasing the costs per distance.

Then there are issues like, roads are not owned by power companies!
Someone mentioned grid, but who would own the road-power-grid?

Its a struggle here to get power cables moved from on poles to underground. That costs but has a benefit of they dont tend to get taken out in a storm (or a fire).

So yeah - its a lot of very cool ideas but really going to struggle on the financial/practical side.

I could see it being sold to someone who owns a parking lot. Although probably best for a lot that is mostly empty during the day and full at night (residential?)

[Rare White Ape]

The grid is needed to transmit power over large distances from the station to the end user, so there will be less demand for a grid in lightly populated areas if the power source is right there.

That sort of accounts for half of one problem. I haven't considered the rest yet. Like batteries or backup, base power, feeding excess back to the grid, etc.

Best we just mandate solar on new residential constructions and give generous power credits to entice owners of existing buildings to install it.

[thesameguy]

The real problem with solar on rooftops is that they all rely on using the existing, shitty domestic grid and a bunch of dumb Band-Aid solutions have to be implemented to make residential solar work. It's a bloody wonder our electrical infrastructure hasn't collapsed as it is; the [maybe only] advantage of the solar road is that it could supplement or replace the grid. Maybe. There is probably also an advantage for global temperatures when millions of square feet of heat-absorbing material disappears and is replaced with heat-disappearing material.

OTOH, what happens in places like Los Angeles, where peak electrical times are coincident with peak traffic times? How useful is a solar I5 when a bazillion cars are sitting on top of it? What happens in accidents when heavy things might fall or car fires might sit right on top for a protracted period of time?

I think the technology for making a solar road could be great in a small town where it wraps up several types of infrastructure or for large property owners who might be able to turn their giant parking lots into revenue sources or cost offsets. That's some good use of technology.

[Crazed_Insanity]

The more I think about it, the more I think this 'smart road' can be a great idea. Can even turn the phrase 'information super highway' into physical reality! As for who owns it? Government does(or the people do)! Utility companies, cable companies or whatever companies that might benefit from having such a grid in place should pay a 'tax' to use and maintain it. This way, we can get rid of all the stupid poles and don't have to dig bunch of trenches all over the place. If you need to service gas or sewage pipes underground... you don't even need to dig up the road and repave... just need to open the road up and then snap it back when done! ;)

One of the main reason why I cut my cable TV is due to lack of competition. So one company laid the cables... so in my area there's just this one cable company. There also aren't any competition for utility companies as well. If I'm not happy with my electric bill, it's either suck it up or live like a cave man?

Having a public 'grid' is an awesome idea. Everyone can be his own power generation company. Based on supply and demand, prices will be computed accordingly whether you're using power or supplying power with your roof top panels or whatever generation method. The days of power down would also be a thing of the past, since unless you live on a dead end street and that one street is damaged by terrorists, then perhaps you'd lose power, otherwise, there are probably multiple redundant roads leading to your house from whatever power source. Heck, even if you are on a dead end street and it's cutoff, the road itself should be able to continue to supply power during daytime...

High speed internet would be kinda tricky..., I guess this would turn the government into a giant internet provider. Pretty much free wifi signal everywhere there's a road paved with such technology.

Actually the more I think about it, utility and cable companies probably will have very little to gain from such technology. It'd ruin their current infrastructure and cause them to lose out on their investments... so they'll probably lobby hard against such smart roads from ever happening...

[Jason]

I think solar roadways would be a 'solution' at the end of the line, personally. It's a concept to get people interested in the possibilities, and people talking. Start with driveways, sidewalks, parking lots, garages, flat topped buildings, etc... all relatively easy things. Throw a panel on every street light. Throw a panel on every traffic light. Small panels on parking meters. All these things that take space right now, that could have panels on them, should have panels on them. It'll take work and money, but in the long run it'll pay off.

[Rare White Ape]

We've already got things like street lights and security cameras and parking ticket dispensers with wee little panels on them. It's mostly a seen-to-be-green thing by the local council at this stage, but I like seeing them.

If all non-ornamental government erections had panels it would be great.

[Jason]

We have a few parking meters that have them here. I've seen them on street lights elsewhere... it's just all so inconsistent and half assed, it seems. If we keep taking micro steps, while consuming more energy, nothing really changes.

[21Kid]

I think it would be a lot easier to get a test city or area to try them out and report on the benefits, cost, etc...
If it cut out most of the snow removal fees (and salt) and provided electricity, and all of the other benefits. It might slowly get adopted in other areas.

It will help to also incorporate other energy saving technologies like LED street lights. They could keep the power more local and avoid long distance power line transmission loss too.

[thesameguy]

Smart roads might save insurance claims and lost productivity, actively lit streets might save on wasted projected light and cut down on light noise in urban areas, being able to shuffle lanes around to maximize road throughput might save on wasted fuel, time, and wear and tear on cars, and the whole time you're rebuilding the grid. That all sounds like good stuff. Maybe folks in rural areas without maintained roads could invest in this stuff to not only provide access to their property, but power for their homes. People in private communities could turn their roads into revenue sources. Small towns could become more self-sufficient - at least gain access to lower priced energy.

I think the technology has huge benefits, even if we don't make it a point to deploy it everywhere. Places like Vegas should be required to roll it out immediately, though, that's for sure.

[LHutton]

The grid is needed to transmit power over large distances from the station to the end user, so there will be less demand for a grid in lightly populated areas if the power source is right there.

That sort of accounts for half of one problem. I haven't considered the rest yet. Like batteries or backup, base power, feeding excess back to the grid, etc.

Best we just mandate solar on new residential constructions and give generous power credits to entice owners of existing buildings to install it.
Any if we promote the building of houses with their roofs pointing in the right direction, which would also require street planning.

Batteries are a problem for individual households because they're fricken expensive but for a local substation it's plausible.

[21Kid]

Getting a smart grid interlocked with solar roads would be huge!

http://www.greenbiz.com/blog/2014/04/21/how-10-innovative-companies-are-giving-energy-storage-jolt

[overpowered]

Batteries are a problem for individual households because they're fricken expensive but for a local substation it's plausible.At least with houses, weight is not an issue and space is less of an issue than for many battery powered devices. You can go with cheaper lead acid technology but you need a deep cycle design and yes, it's still fairly expensive, but not anything like the cost of lithium batteries.

I don't know how plausible it is for a local substation. You're talking about providing power to a lot of people.

[Godson]

Why not have a block of batteries instead of household. Last thing I want is some shit-brained wanker who doesn't even maintain the condition of his vehicle to be expected to maintain a highly hazardous contraption like a massive battery in his house.

[21Kid]

Pay $1 and get $400 off solar power (http://www.treehugger.com/renewable-energy/pay-1-and-get-400-solar-power-solarcity-free-installation-too.html) from SolarCity (free installation too!)

Various solar installers have made getting solar power more affordable than ever thanks to free installation and leasing contracts, so there are no upfront costs, you only pay a monthly fee to rent the solar system, an amount that is usually lower than your current utility bill. But if that wasn't enough for you to be tempted, SolarCity has partnered with deal-of-the-day website Groupon to further sweeten the deal.

The idea is that you pay $1 to sign up for the deal, and then if you end up signing a contract for SolarCity to provide solar power to your home, you get $400 off (not on the installation, because that's free, but on what you would pay to lease the system). Worse case, you're out $1...

Of course there's some fine print. You must first be a new customer and check that SolarCity operates in your area, and then go through the SolarCity process that makes sure your location fits their criteria. You can read all the details on the Groupon page here (http://www.groupon.com/deals/solarcity-1).

[Crazed_Insanity]

Seem like a awesome deal and my area's covered too, but I suspect the big tree in my yard will be a problem. It offers sufficient shading in the afternoon to keep our house cool, but probably not good for solar panels...

Anyway, just thought of another great idea for these smart roads..., wonder if they can adapt cable car tech on these panels to allow electric cars to 'feed' off of it so EVs won't lose charge while traveling on smart roads. If you never go off road, perhaps you can take batteries out of the EVs all together! Well, unless if your garage is also paved with these panels, perhaps you still need a small battery to move your car out of the garage and onto these roads! ;)

With regard to energy storage... unless battery tech and price improves greatly, it'll probably still be cheaper and safer and impact the environment less for power companies to generate power for us during the evenings. Or perhaps just let the utility company figure which is better and cheaper... whether to generate power... or have mass storage to collect and save the energy during the day and then unleash them at night.

I guess the only reason why I'd be against such smart roads is that now Google/NSA will be able to track you even better!

[21Kid]

You can charge things via wireless transmission. In fact, Italy has been doing it for over 10 years (http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/05/30/in-italy-electric-buses-wirelessly-pick-up-their-power/?_php=true&_type=blogs&_r=0) already. :|

That's how far behind the US is.

[LHutton]

I don't know how plausible it is for a local substation. You're talking about providing power to a lot of people.
It's already about in some countries and it's being trialled here as a peak load manager. The devices used for peak load management are about the size of 2 phone boxes. So I imagine a fully self-sufficient one would be freight-container-sized.

The batteries are modular design, so you can make them as big as you want. HV substation ones, for instance, are the size of 2 freight containers with half of a 3rd for the inverter.

EDIT:

At least with houses, weight is not an issue and space is less of an issue than for many battery powered devices. You can go with cheaper lead acid technology but you need a deep cycle design and yes, it's still fairly expensive, but not anything like the cost of lithium batteries.
Wouldn't comply with RoHS and WEEE regulations. Lead is extremely toxic when it comes to disposal.

[LHutton]

You can charge things via wireless transmission. In fact, Italy has been doing it for over 10 years (http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/05/30/in-italy-electric-buses-wirelessly-pick-up-their-power/?_php=true&_type=blogs&_r=0) already. :|

That's how far behind the US is.
Transformers have been doing it for centuries.;)

But yeah, devices which work with low coupling coefficients are coming into play for public transport and charging mobile phones. Good old Tesla.

[21Kid]

New LED flood lights can reduce energy use by 70% and are 50% cheaper than the previous version. (http://www.treehugger.com/energy-efficiency/new-led-flood-lights-can-reduce-energy-use-70.html)
With a payback from energy savings in 2 years, why wouldn't you do this? Even if you didn't give a damn about the environment, this would make sense economically.

[thesameguy]

Yep, been waiting for those. I nearly replaced my four sets of outdoor flood lights with LEDs, but read about these and decided to hold off. I'm ready when they are!

I replaced most of our commonly used lights with Cree LEDs and have no regrets. The only lights remaining are our kitchen lights, which are fluorescent tubes. Replacing those is pricey - whether it's a ceiling remodel or tube->LED replacements. Unfortunately, they're going to stay for a while.

[Random]

City of Davis has been retrofitting their streetlights with LEDs--to a predictable chorus of complaints that they are too bright. :rolleyes:

We're all LED/CFL at home. Like you, I've got a couple fixtures that will likely stay CFL until some of the specialty bulb bases move to LED.

edit: or not...looks like there are LED replacements for my bathroom fan lights: http://www.ledtronics.com/Products/ProductsDetails.aspx?WP=2116

Sweet.

[thesameguy]

LEDs are too bright, and light pollution is a legitimate concern. But if the choice is light pollution or outright waste, sign me up for pollution.

[21Kid]

Hmmmm... I thought LED's were actually supposed to help prevent light pollution because they are directional and can be focused. If they are too bright, I would think that they can be dimmed.

[thesameguy]

I'm sure it's fixable, it just isn't fixed.

The issue around here (the office) is LED stop lights. When the fog rolls in there are intersections it's impossible to see through because there is so much light everywhere. I'm sure this could be addressed with a sensor or whatever, it just hasn't been.

[neanderthal]

When Tesla's massive battery factory comes online I think the price of batteries suitable to power a home will go down considerably.

At the very least, Elon et al should be considering making a battery pack that can be charged by solar panels, packed away in a corner of the garage, and can essentially power a hole house.

As someone who is always interested in energy efficiency, I forsee that coming to be the norm in the future. Toyota has powered cars off batteries for millions of miles now, with very few incidents, so we know the tech required to keep them in their peak operating ability vis a vis temperature, shock etc.

I imagine in the future that homes will be built with a mechanical room (this is already the norm at the Solar Decathlon (solardecathlon.gov)) which will comprise the heating and cooling elements of the home plus the heating and cooling of the water consumed in the home. I imagine that in this utipain future, such a mechanical room would also house the battery.
In fact, I imagine that in countries without a well developed electrical grid (like most of those in Africa) this could become the norm. No major need to build very massive, expensive power generation facilities when you have abundant sun and can take advantage of that.

[Random]

The units in Davis are directional--additional light pollution would be from reflected light.

They are quite a bit brighter on the ground.

Fog was much less prevalent this winter*, so I didn't get to see if they were better or worse than the regular sodium lights.

* guy on my softball team says that is statistically verifiable--the areas of nasty fog have been shrinking steadily over the last couple decades.

[thesameguy]

I'd buy it. Spots that used to be awesome to watch fog roll in around here ain't so awesome anymore. I've become so used to the non-fog, that when I hit fog coming back with the Southwind I was surprised - ten years ago I'd have been shocked to not see it.

[Random]

He said the old skool, nasty tule fog is pretty much confined to a band between Stockton and Madera these days.

[21Kid]

There were stop lights like that back in WI. They were so bright, you couldn't look at them. There were quite a few billboards too. The one by Miller Park was especially bad on rainy days because it was pretty close to the interstate. I'd imagine they could use the same timers/sensors that they use to turn the street lights on that they could use to dim the billboards and stop lights.

I don't know why this hasn't been done yet... seems like a really easy fix.
:cool:

[thesameguy]

Those billboards should be outlawed. We now have three of them in Sacramento, and one of them is so low it's impossible not to look at. In bad weather, the glow around them is so bright there is a moment when you approach that you can't see anything because yours eyes have to readjust. Someone is going to get in an accident and sue to the shit out of them.

[JoshInKC]

I recall hearing that one of the municipalities in KC switched over to LED stops lights a few years ago, ostensibly to save electiricity- no complaints about brightness that I've heard, but they did have to go back and install heaters in the housings because they kept getting blocked up with snow and ice that the old inefficient lights would have melted.

[thesameguy]

Tangent: Just saw video of my girl on such a billboard in Vegas. Talk about weird.

[Godson]

Because many people lack the ability to critically think.


I HATE LED billboards. WAAAAY too bright.

[Godson]

I recall hearing that one of the municipalities in KC switched over to LED stops lights a few years ago, ostensibly to save electiricity- no complaints about brightness that I've heard, but they did have to go back and install heaters in the housings because they kept getting blocked up with snow and ice that the old inefficient lights would have melted.

Independence switched over to LED streetlights about a year or so ago. They work great as long as you don't look into them.

[JoshInKC]

Yeah, I want to say the stop lights/heaters thing was somewhere in JoCo - Maybe Merriam?

[21Kid]

I recall hearing that one of the municipalities in KC switched over to LED stops lights a few years ago, ostensibly to save electiricity- no complaints about brightness that I've heard, but they did have to go back and install heaters in the housings because they kept getting blocked up with snow and ice that the old inefficient lights would have melted.

That's the same problem they had in WI. The old lights were so inefficient and put off so much heat that the hot lights would melt the snow and the new LED ones don't.

Maybe the lower heat output will also slow down global warming. ;)

[Godson]

Yeah, I want to say the stop lights/heaters thing was somewhere in JoCo - Maybe Merriam?

I try to avoid Merriam, but that sounds correct.

[Dicknose]

We started moving to led traffic/stop lights probably 10 years ago.
I believe it was mostly about service life and safety.
The LEDs last much longer than a typical bulb.
Plus they use many LEDs in the unit, so even if one fails the light still works.
Having a red light blow out is dangerous.

It's rare to see a light out now.

[TheBenior]

I don't mind LED billboards in the Chicago city limits, but they do seem way too bright when I'm way out in the suburbs.

[thesameguy]

I've been casually researching solar power options for the Southwind, and ran into this stuff. How cool?

http://www.amazon.com/Unisolar-Flexible-Solar-Panel-Laminate/dp/B006EP6MCU/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1402337758&sr=8-1&keywords=self+stick+solar+panel

[Random]

Inexpensive solar shingles/tiles/roofing is going to be a killer app, i.e. when the prices get reasonable enough that you can just install a solar roof without worrying too much about your roof facing the optimum direction, partial shade, etc.

[thesameguy]

What I've read is that these flexible panels are good for just that - they are never as good as the rigid panels in optimum conditions, but superior for sub-optimum conditions. They also don't get killed by hail and such since they aren't glass, and some can lose sections without failing totally. That is pretty magical.

Our roof is nearing the end of its life but I really want to wrap a solar installation into the project and I don't want to end up with yesterday's solar tech. Gonna keep dragging my feet until I actually need to do it, or the New Hotness becomes available. ;)

[overpowered]

India is putting a bunch of solar panels over canals, using the shade from the panels to reduce evaporation while also generating electricity:

http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/government-and-policy/now-gujarat-to-cover-narmada-canals-with-solar-panels/article3346191.ece

Space for solar panels tends to be plentiful in most places and in some cases, like this one, provides additional benefits.

[21Kid]

Like parking lots... I still think that would be huge. Shade to keep electric cars cool and charge them at the same time!!!

[Godson]

I support the use over canals. Way more important than covering parking lots right now.



Also, those flexible panels....do want.

[21Kid]

Wow, this would be amazing. the entire building could be a solar panel!!!

Paint-On Solar Cells Could Make Renewable Power Accessible to the Masses (http://inhabitat.com/paint-on-solar-cells-could-make-renewable-power-accessible-to-millions/)

Researchers at the University of Toronto have made a breakthrough that could lead to cheaper and more flexible solar cells that could be used by millions of people around the world. The team developed nanoparticles called colloidal quantum dots that don’t lose their electrons when exposed to air. The new material achieves solar power conversion efficiency of up to eight percent and can be painted or printed on surfaces such as roofing shingles. The breakthrough also ensures better sensors, infrared lasers, infrared light emitting diodes and satellites.