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HondaKid86
June 8th, 2014, 06:53 AM
Last year, it became clear the car brand I was working for would be folded into another brand. I took a job across town. Five months in, I was laid off, and to be honest, a big reason is because I empathized too much with the blue-collar tradespeople instead of joining into the rude and hateful jokes from the people up front.

These kids, without health insurance, making ten bucks an hour, were forced to perform unnecessary tasks outdoors when the wind chill approached -30F. How could I be a good person if I didn't even raise concern?

I get it the humanity from my mom. She always helps everyone she can. A friend hired movers yesterday and watching them toil in the heat was actually very uncomfortable. He left and I asked: no, these kids didn't have health insurance either, some picky customers are downright mean and yes, actually, they were kind of thirsty. Luckily, my friend did the decent thing and brought the guys water and snacks. Aren't we, as car guys, required to be good to our fellow humans? I don't care if they're on the clock. Can't we look out for each other as if we're on the same team?

Losing that awful job was a blessing, by the way. I'm glad my mom raised me to not compromise my values for the sake of fitting in.

A friend called me a populist several years ago, and I think he's right. I'm always kind of bothered by any explicit show of subservience. I never let a bellman get my baggage, for instance. In formal situations, I naturally and quickly establish a casual tone with wait staff, concierges... I know building custodians by name. I put owners of bastard nameplates at the forefront in my first job. I've driven extremely special pre-production cars by dealers and asked service techs to sit inside before the sales managers even know I'm there. The dichotomy between haves and have-nots is a game that I won't play.

But I think I might be overly sensitive to that dynamic now.

thesameguy
June 8th, 2014, 08:55 AM
A person who gets paid to carry bags isn't giving you an explicit show an subservience by getting your bags, he is doing his job. He makes money for manual labor, and if he's done a nice job or you're a nice guy, he gets a little extra when he reaches his destination. Not every job entails the same amount of manual labor, the same time investment (before, during or after) or the same pay. That's how it is. Am I being subservient when sit at your desk and fix your computer? Is Warren Buffet being subservient when he shows up on time and hosts a shareholders meeting? The way an economy works is by people are able to do Thing 1 get paid by people who can't or don't want to do to that that thing, they in turn pay people to do Thing 2 because they can't or don't want to. If you think nobody should have to carry your luggage, then you need to quickly figure out what those people can do instead to put food on their table. The fact that this world is filled with lazy idiots is nothing but great news for people who either by circumstance or talent can't be CEOs (which includes me). We're always going to have sort some of less than ideal job to do. (Assuming ideal = no effort, much pay). There is no "ist" which decribes People Only Doing Fun Jobs. Someone has to carry the heavy stuff, someone has to clean the sewer pipes.

You should never be pointlessly rude or unkind or pointlessly deprive people of comforts, but asking or letting someone help you isn't classism. My buddy the contractor works all day in terrible Sacramento heat and I work all day in an air conditioned office. Except I get there early and stay late, he works 9a to 3p. He takes time off when he wants, I schedule months or even years in advance. I work with people I hate, and they aren't going anywhere and neither am I. He tells people to suck it and gets a different job. We all pay our dues, no job is perfect. Sometimes you give it, sometimes you take it. And as long as it's given as part of the job and not in hate or discrimination, it's probably okay. Maybe not ideal, but ok. My buddy and I are great friends. I wouldn't want his job, I hate the heat. He doesn't want my job, he hates computers. We laugh at each other for having crap jobs nobody in their right mind could possibly want. But we both do them, we both get paid, we both by beer that someone working in crap conditions in a beer factory made for us. Because neither of us want to work in a factory.

KillerB
June 8th, 2014, 09:47 AM
Peter Gibbons: Our high school guidance counselor used to ask us what you would do if you had a million dollars and didn't have to work. And invariably, whatever you'd say, that was supposed to be your career. So if you wanted to fix old cars, then you're supposed to be an auto mechanic.
Samir Nagheenanajar: So what did you say?
Peter Gibbons: I never had an answer. I guess that's why I'm working at Initech.
Michael Bolton: No, you're working at Initech 'cause that question is bullshit to begin with. If that quiz worked, there would be no janitors, because no one would clean shit up if they had a million dollars.

Look, I don't disagree that differences in access to quality education, connections, and good old fashioned nepotism lead to inequality of opportunity in this country. But the fact is that no one, short of the mentally handicapped, is so deprived of the opportunity for an education that all they can manage is a completely unskilled job.

I treat everyone I encounter with respect. I tip very well, but I let those folks do their jobs.

I try not to glamorize the past too much, but I really feel like there used to be (long before my day) a lot more people who took pride in their work, regardless of whether the job was considered "high-class" or not. To me, the epitome of class is to take pride in your work and let that pride be visible to others. I would prefer we have a bit less automation in our lives so that those without the access or ability for higher demand skills could make a living doing their very best at what they're capable of.

I would much prefer we pay our janitors a living wage and have the best janitors possible. It is better for everyone involved to do that rather than have those folks be unemployable and be wards of the state.

HondaKid86
June 8th, 2014, 10:27 AM
Non-living wage with no health care for a high-risk gig. And I'm supposed to shrug?

People are awful to each other. I'm glad I'm never having kids.

thesameguy
June 8th, 2014, 11:09 AM
You think it's better to look down your nose at them for being subservient? Carry your own bags or furniture and put them out of a job? Maybe these guys are happy to have a job rather than being on the dole, or maybe they don't mind not having benefits and prefer the freedom and low stress of their job. I think the it's the definition of classist to believe for one instant that your situation is better than theirs, and that these people are inferior to you and deserve your pity. If you're worried about their lot, get it on some type of reform campaign, don't deprive them of your dollar in the meantime.

HondaKid86
June 8th, 2014, 11:45 AM
You are a really angry person. No wonder I quit the Open Road.

We still hired movers. I still tip bellmen. I still respected the craft of our artisans in the shop, even though my fellow senior team members referred to them in ways I can't even repeat.

I don't think people deserve pity. It isn't pity to call workers back inside at 30 below; it's common sense, and not to is a power play. It isn't patronizing to offer laborers water on a hot day; it's how people need to treat each other.

The job market in Michigan creates an environment where people are overworked, under compensated and treated badly.

Random
June 8th, 2014, 11:50 AM
It's the law (in California, at least) to provide water (and shade) on a hot day, actually. No patronization needed. :)

thesameguy
June 8th, 2014, 12:18 PM
I wrote a lot, but whatever. I'll distill it down to:

You know the custodian's name? Really?

You should make up your mind whether you never let a bellman get your bags or you tip them. Because doing both makes no sense.

Treating people differently based on their situation - regardless of what that situation is - is classist. By definition. Bear that in mind.

I'm not angry, I'm old. I'm sorry if tone doesn't translate well over the tubes.

speedpimp
June 8th, 2014, 12:57 PM
Why would you hire movers? That's what friends with pick ups are for.

Kchrpm
June 8th, 2014, 03:27 PM
You are a really angry person. No wonder I quit the Open Road.

I don't think you know what angry means.

Yw-slayer
June 8th, 2014, 06:56 PM
It may be because I've met TSG in real life, but to me, none of his posts came across as being angry in any way, shape or form.


But I think I might be overly sensitive to that dynamic now.

Yes, you probably are.

GB
June 8th, 2014, 08:18 PM
Yeah, I see no anger... just dialogue.

There seems to be 2 separate ideas floating here, but it's all getting lumped together.

Calling people inside from doing a menial task in dangerously frigid temperatures is a completely different thing than not letting a porter carry your bags in a hotel or airport.

I've been in service-based jobs. It's awkward and uncomfortable when someone doesn't want you to do your job for a customer. It feels like you're not even good enough to touch their things, or not couth enough to give them assistance. And if your boss sees a customer helping themselves, you are berated for not doing your job.

But on this, I agree with Adam: Be a civilized person. Say 'please' and 'thank you'. Tip well. Speak to everyone as an equal, even if he or she is "just" sweeping the floor. "Hi Steve, how are you today?" isn't a phrase that's beneath anyone. Don't be a dick.

HondaKid86
June 8th, 2014, 08:52 PM
People *are* dicks, though, and I think that's why I hypercorrect. I never thought about offending someone by not letting them do their jobs, so that's perspective I appreciate -- and the "subordinate gets scolded" scenario has actually happened before, so you're definitely right about that. I will think and chew on it -- thank you. That is more valuable to me than defaulting to hysterics.

I don't think it's a black and white dichotomy, though. At my last job, our custodian was a young girl -- going to night school, and pregnant. She'd come to my office and try to empty my trash or clean up, and I'd do it for her, taking the time to catch up a little and give her a break that she probably didn't need. But come on! How am I going to sit lazily and live in some kind of vacuum? I couldn't stand to see her bend to heft anything. Perfectly within the realm of my ability, and happy to help, because as USAnj's CD said, "we're all kids on this bus".

I'm also reminded of dinner I had with another forum member some months ago, when he mentioned he always tipped waitstaff at least five bucks, no matter the total. Look at the situation in this country today: people working two and three jobs, because their hours were cut by their employers so they wouldn't have to subsidize their healthcare. How do you ignore that your server is a fellow human worth knowing and helping out? Even if it's bad service, I tend to think that's caused by somebody's bad day, and withholding a tip is only going to compound it.

With all the rampant Randism and the especially harsh employment practices in depressed areas where "you're lucky to have a job at all", I think union protections are more relevant than they have been in some time.

GB
June 8th, 2014, 09:24 PM
Well, yes... people are dicks. But people like you and I choose not to be. All we can do is set an example.

And that custodial girl is a good example of it. All you did is help her out a little, smile, and engage in conversation. I heartily approve in that situation.

If people are a porter, or a custodian, or a server, or a doorman... whatever... let them be what they are. Give them the dignity of doing the best job that they can do. And then say, "Thanks! Have a good day!"

Yw-slayer
June 8th, 2014, 10:56 PM
I'm also reminded of dinner I had with another forum member some months ago, when he mentioned he always tipped waitstaff at least five bucks, no matter the total. Look at the situation in this country today: people working two and three jobs, because their hours were cut by their employers so they wouldn't have to subsidize their healthcare. How do you ignore that your server is a fellow human worth knowing and helping out? Even if it's bad service, I tend to think that's caused by somebody's bad day, and withholding a tip is only going to compound it.

Although our tipping system is very different here, I don't agree with this policy at all. If the service is crap, I don't see why I should pay for it. We can't compare our restaurants to yours, since over here the 10% "Gratuity" is automatically added to the bill by the restaurant and 98% of the time only goes to the restaurant, NOT the servers directly. A better example is that I will leave a tip in places which don't charge or expect gratuity if the service is good. Or else I will tip HK taxi drivers when they give me OK or above-average service to show that I appreciate it (not much but it's not commonly done or expected, so it's a gesture). This is partly because when I get or encounter a rude one I will readily make a complaint to the Transport Department and the Police.

I'm sure you are also aware that tipping is considered offensive in Japan.

FaultyMario
June 9th, 2014, 07:05 AM
Yeah, well. Subscribed to thread. Will get back to it on the weekend. Too much in my head. Thanks Adam, Thanks Justin, thanks everyone for their comments.

tigeraid
June 9th, 2014, 08:40 AM
From what I can tell, you can't compare American restaurants to anywhere else as far as tipping, since waiting staff in America have to roll it into their pay. I frequently tip as low as $4 regardless of the meal, but Canadian waitresses make at least minimum wage--which in Canada is $10.

FWIW I too go out of my way to do my own work whenever possible, and occasionally it has made people at businesses uncomfortable. The big example is pumping my own gas at a full service station. I do it no matter what, because I don't trust the fuckers not to puke gas all over my car. I always clean up after myself if I spill something in a place of business.

Then again, it seems like a distinctly American (and actually, British) thing to have people at the "service" level for businesses. I don't think I've ever met a door man, let alone had one hold a door for me. Never had a dude in a bathroom drying my hands and handing out cologne and such either.

thesameguy
June 9th, 2014, 08:55 AM
Although our tipping system is very different here, I don't agree with this policy at all. If the service is crap, I don't see why I should pay for it.

Given that you've got gratuity built in, that makes sense to me. Here, serving staff can get somewhat screwed between weird labor laws and weird tax laws, so I will tip the "minimum" 15% even on fairly shoddy service. There have been two instances in my life where I have not tipped, and I assure you there were well-deserved. OTOH, I'm very much willing to pay for a better experience and I will absolutely leave a hefty tip. I try to tip in cash, because anything put on the bill gets automatically reported to the IRS and I'll certainly try to deflect a healthy tip from that process if I can.

I believe that people who do well at anything should be encouraged to continue, and I gotta believe (never having been in a service position, but having numerous friends who are or were) that the smile you put on every day is because yesterday's tips went well and you're hoping today's will as well. If a gesture from me can be a part of that process, I'm all in. To that end, I certainly try to divorce the product from the service - not everyone is blessed with selling a good product and not every good product has a good rep. It's worth a little brainpower to sort it out.

However, I'm not sure tipping is what this thread is about. Maybe it was. What GB said seems, to me, to be spot on - let people do their jobs and then thank them for doing them. I don't get making a special effort for people in the service industry, or maybe I just don't get calling attention to the fact that one treats human beings like human beings. If the marketing manager was pregnant and loading boxes into her car, I'd help. If the customer service manager helped me get a problem sorted I'm thank them. Helping people who need help and looking out for people who may not be looked after properly is what being a responsible and courteous citizen is about. It doesn't matter whether the person is blue collar or white collar or no collar. The premise of this thread - "I'm nice to underemployed people" is offensive to me, on many levels. It strikes me very much in the vein as something my grandmother said to me once: "Of course I'm nice to the blacks." I want to think I knew what she meant (being "from another time"), but fuuuuuu.... What is the alternative? Why did that even need to be said???

thesameguy
June 9th, 2014, 08:58 AM
Then again, it seems like a distinctly American (and actually, British) thing to have people at the "service" level for businesses. I don't think I've ever met a door man, let alone had one hold a door for me. Never had a dude in a bathroom drying my hands and handing out cologne and such either.

That has happened to be twice. Once at an uppity party here in Sacramento, the other time at a weird retro-y club in LA. Super awkward. I am not even comfortable with the idea of someone sitting in a bathroom with the secondary purpose of listening to my functions. :lol:

HondaKid86
June 9th, 2014, 11:11 AM
You're taking some ridiculous leaps.

The premise of this thread isn't that I feel "pity for the underemployed" — that's all you. I do, however, feel concern for the underinsured, and disgust at the people who *are* so aloof that they dichotomize instead of work together as one team.

I've seen people who do not, in fact, see fit to ask how their IT person is doing — they see people as automated robots and talk at them, not with them, if at all. That failure to acknowledge the humanity of a person, just because it's their job to help you out, is what bothers me.

thesameguy
June 9th, 2014, 11:44 AM
It is entirely natural and expected for human beings to dichotomize - it is our very nature to draw lines between Us and Them. We are the IT staff, they are the lusers. That dividing line exists for every group of people on the planet. It sounds to be like your actual issue is with people being jerks to each other and - I agree - that's a real problem. My users suck. They are ignorant about computers, they create nothing but hassles for me, and while they think my job is to remind them how to change the margins in Word my real job is to ensure their computer boots up in the first place and that Word document they made yesterday is still there. They think I am their crutch, when the reality is that I am their floor. There is a strong, terrible line between us. But I still help them set up their home theaters and I've reset check engine lights and even done a brake job or two - because we're all people, and sometimes people need help or encouragement or both.

If this thread was called Be Excellent to Each Other I'd come in with a resounding hell yeah, but that isn't the vibe I got. You titled this thread "classism" and then proceeded to explain how you're special because you're nice to blue collar people. WTF, man? You have drawn a circle around a group of people, shown that you treat them like kings - even at the expense of others (eg, prioritizing the service staff over the sales staff). That is classism. You know the custodian, you establish a dialog with the wait staff. That's great - do you want a medal or it? Chris Rock has this bit about you don't get credit for the things you're supposed to do and that pretty much sums up my opinion on this matter. Like I said, what is the alternative? Be a dick to the custodian, wait staff, or service staff?

I certainly can't say what's going on in your brain and yeah, I might very well be really off base, but IME people who say things where a "those people" would slot in beautifully in their verbiage are probably some sort of -ist. And I can easily place a "those people" in much of what you've said. Maybe think about not considering a person's situation when you render help, and instead help out people who need help, and being cordial if not friendly to everyone that crosses your path (until their fuck up your mix, anyway), and then probably don't post on the internet about how you are really nice to those people.

Kchrpm
June 9th, 2014, 02:02 PM
But how will everyone know how humble you are if you don't brag about it on the Internet and point out how others aren't as humble as you?

thesameguy
June 9th, 2014, 02:32 PM
That I can't help with, because contrary to popular belief, I am a robot. And I'm pretty sure I'm passing the Turing Test right now.

HondaKid86
June 9th, 2014, 03:34 PM
I appreciate the global perspective, YW and Tiger. A large part of my concern comes from the fact that, in the US, companies who are already paying unlivable wages are now cutting hours to ensure employees remain uninsured. I'm not going to tip so generously if the service is rude, but I've seen too many people use a late refill or a slightly mistaken order as an excuse to tip poorly. Knocking someone down on their off day just continues the cycle, I feel.

At work, I was incredibly bothered to hear loaded jokes like, "We're concerned that the signs will blow over in the pouring hail — wait, why not get one of the detailers to stand out there holding signs?" Treating people like a commodity. Making it known that the engineers did not know the staff's names. There were unwritten rules about using separate entrances, even. The environment impacted the quality of our inspections and feedback.

I've seen it before in other places, too. In this town, there is a staunch divide between the exalted OEMs and the second-tier agencies and suppliers. It's the difference between getting a break for water during a ten-hour video shoot.

I didn't come here to brag about being a good guy. I came to share disappointment that society has forgotten we're all in it together.

When someone insatiably assumes your absolute worst intentions, every phrase will be twisted. Not engaging the hysterical tangents from here on out.

thesameguy
June 9th, 2014, 03:54 PM
What you wrote in Post #1 is decidedly not the same thing as you wrote in #24.

But to say "not engaging in hysterical tangents" immediately after "society has forgotten" is somewhat ironic. I don't think society has forgotten anything. I think you have some examples of people acting poorly, but people have been acting poorly since, well, there have been people. In fact, I'd wager that in the global, historical landscape of people doing the right thing, Right Now is probably up there with the best it's ever been. Not to say there isn't crazy room for improvement and not saying 2014 mankind doesn't have some awesome ability to do messed up things on significant scales, but if your sole point is that people are sometimes most heinous to each other despite Bill & Ted's excellent suggestion, well, yes, that's true. But what else is new?

In any case, none of these shenanigans are classist. I seriously doubt most Americans even have a concept of classism - we're all 99%ers. What people have are positions of authority coupled with personal needs for success and fears of failure. It's the rare individual that doesn't confuse getting ahead with pushing behind, and the lines become all that more blurred or insignificant when the path ahead is difficult or unclear and the path to pushing behind is not - as is more often than not the case.

But, seriously, the sky is probably not falling. This is probably not the end despite what hysterical media types like to print. Nothing sells media like fear, because nothing gives the illusion of getting ahead like pushing others behind. And everyone knows, fear is the mindkiller.

Yw-slayer
June 9th, 2014, 07:07 PM
Man, TSG is being neither hysterical nor angry. Just chill out.

GB
June 9th, 2014, 09:10 PM
I have been places with people who treat service personnel as 2nd-class citizens. It's really awful. And when I ask them about it, the consensus seems to be, "It's their JOB to serve me." It's like they can't see the difference between doing a good job as waitstaff, and being ordered around by a douchebag. So on that, I think we're all in agreement.

So I guess we're really in a discussion about the Capitalist/Free Enterprise system. Some jobs carry "good' benefits like paid vacation and health insurance, and some don't. But that's what this country is about. Adam, who is currently unemployed, could have a *job* pretty much instantly if he wanted. But it probably wouldn't be a *good* job, or something in his chosen field. But to survive, he could get a job. Or he could start a business. Easiest country in the world for one to start their own business. Buy a bucket and a squeegee, and you're a windowwasher. Buy some chlorine, and you're a swimming pool technician.

If we make it mandatory that EVERY business be a *good* job for someone to be employed in, with benefits provided, then we automatically make it harder for people like Jeff Bezos, Michael Dell, Walt Disney, Thomas Edison, or Bill Lawson (the guy who works on my lawn sprinklers) to start their businesses. As a former business owner, I say that is a BAD idea.

Just remember... millions and millions of people didn't flood this country through Ellis Island because they were hoping to get a *good* job with benefits. They wanted an opportunity to work for their own destiny. It worked out better for some then some others. But they all had a shot. Free Enterprise.

GB
June 9th, 2014, 09:17 PM
OK... even *I* got off on a bit of a tangent there. Oops.

The culture of treating certain people as 2nd class within a business: Do we think that is a culture WITHIN the business? Or a larger social problem? Because I think the overall feeling for all of us here is, "Don't be a dick." We're a pretty diverse cross-section of socio-economics with cars as our common interest. Why do we think some people *ARE* dicks?

KillerB
June 9th, 2014, 10:06 PM
Non-living wage with no health care for a high-risk gig. And I'm supposed to shrug?

People are awful to each other. I'm glad I'm never having kids.

Unfortunately, me making small talk to the custodial staff in my office building isn't going to get them health insurance. Yet, I'm nice to them, regardless.

Adam, what you're saying here is coming off as some real weapons-grade hipster privileged horseshit. It sounds like the faux-enlightened crap that college students from moneyed families spout. The reality is that the real power lies in the hands of the top 1% of the 1% - and turning the rest of us against each other means we never get around to noticing what's really going on.

Instead of being angry with... I'm not even entirely sure who you're angry with; maybe the dicks that decide to cut people's hours so they don't have to be given health insurance... instead think about who it really is that benefits from the United States not having single payer health insurance. The people that benefit from the prison-industrial complex and the War on Drugs. The people that benefit from globalization and free trade and jobs being shipped overseas. It's not registered Democrats or Republicans. It's not rabid racists or Rachel Maddow devotees, or Tea Partiers, or the rank and file of any special interest group. The people with the real juice make sure that, no matter what party is in power, they've got them on their payroll. The racists and the crusaders, the college kids and the senior citizens... they're all pawns.

You want real change? Start by not insulting people. I am fairly certain that no one on this message board is a real power player - compared to those folks, we're all in this together.

Or maybe I'm wrong about that, in which case, I'm sure they'll disappear me quickly enough. :P

Yw-slayer
June 9th, 2014, 11:06 PM
*Lights cigar with 10 x USD100 bills*

*Makes encrypted satellite phone call from 350-foot yacht named "SUCK IT DOWN LOSERS VIII"*

Godson
June 9th, 2014, 11:10 PM
Dude... that is not an awesome value.

Leon
June 9th, 2014, 11:47 PM
Interesting thread.

I've got a somewhat different perspective, as I'm from NZ, and "it's a whole different world" here, in some ways.

Note: I am *not* saying better, worse, or making any value judgements.

NZ is legendary for being a very egalitarian country, http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/egalitarian so we don't tend to like to see people treated differently. Obviously, this is only actually true in a perfect world, there's still people who act like first class arsehats to half the people in the world around them. There's also a minimum wage, very very very very limited tipping culture, and some organisations are paying a "living wage" rather than the minimum wage, because of feeling that the minimum wage isn't enough.

I believe Adam, that you'd probably quite enjoy visiting NZ.

There are still some complete bastards here too of course :)

Crazed_Insanity
June 10th, 2014, 12:08 AM
Speaking from a psychological perspective..., I recently read from a blog explaining how humans tend get stuck in this backfire effect. http://youarenotsosmart.com/2011/06/10/the-backfire-effect/

I used to think that having a discussions with the 'other side' will help me understand the other side better... and likewise help the other side understand me better. Unfortunately, things tend to backfire. Discussion can be about religion, politics or whatever opposing views. The more people talk about it... the more each side end up believe they are more right and the other side is more wrong. So unless if both sides remain truly humble, chances are discussions will only end up polarizing folks further. Making the line between me vs you even bigger and wider. This is one reason why I've given up religious discussions here. I also think it's probably not very productive for HK and TSG to continue anymore discussions. But of course if it is backfire that you want, by all means continue the discussion. ;)

To be a bit on topic..., yeah, I think everyone here would agree that we all should be excellent to one another. As long as we do that, we can't go wrong.

Yw-slayer
June 10th, 2014, 12:57 AM
I should also point out that - despite the best efforts of the government - Kim Dotcom lives in NZ.

Leon
June 10th, 2014, 01:19 AM
I should also point out that - despite the best efforts of the government - Kim Dotcom lives in NZ.

He's causing much mayhem, it's amusing. So far he has caused a politician to be found guilty for knowingly making false fundraising claims, he has also recorded an album, and started a political party.

Also in my previous job, I turned down one of his mega $ cars for being road legal in NZ.

Yw-slayer
June 10th, 2014, 02:14 AM
Guys like him are why people like AMG make cars. It's utterly pointless having him sit in something like a Lotus, or even an 86, as it would skew the power-to-weight ratio massively. :lol:

Dicknose
June 10th, 2014, 02:26 AM
(spraying shots all over the place)

I think the "class in the workplace" can depend on the job.

When I worked in tv, there was a definite class structure. All hail and bow and scape to the on-air talent.
Its much different now Im in an engineering company (rather than an engineering dept within a tv company). Probably also helped by being a much smaller company - less chance for "levels" to exist.

I think its actually quite easy for this sort of class structure to get into an industry. Many people move around in the same industry, it exists in most places, and it stays due to sheer weight of numbers.
Very easy when its white collar v blue collar and probably something left over from the 60s.

A bit like NZ, here aussies like to think we are classless. Oh yes class exists and at times people actually try to play down their class.
But still plenty of people would look down on others for having a "would you like fries with that" job (including using that expression)

Im very lucky I get to do a job I like and Im good at. I get paid well.
But one of my best friends is a bus driver. Paid ok, but its not a classy job. He "doesnt mind it", but its not exactly something you do for fun.
Sometime you do get people who treat you like crap - yell, abuse, even physically assault you.

Like Adam, I do like to be polite to people who are doing their job. Often its a "Id hate doing that job, worse to then have to put up with arseholes".
Then again - I like to smile at people when I walk down the street. In a big city it can be very impersonal, doesnt cost much effort to smile and I think it makes others day just that little bit better. Some smile back and it makes me feel better! (just dont try it in Germany - thats another story)

Without making this a religion thread (steady Billi) - I do like to use the golden rule.
Treat people doing a job how I like to be treated when doing mine (or worse - if I had to do their job)

Not sure if this is hipster or faux humility (or that its hipster to say "faux") - I just know it helps me get thru the day.

FaultyMario
June 10th, 2014, 06:49 AM
Again, Richard Nose, I love reading your posts.

Crazed_Insanity
June 10th, 2014, 07:44 AM
Don't worry DN, if you read my post above, you'd know that I've given up debating religion recently. :p

thesameguy
June 10th, 2014, 09:05 AM
I think its actually quite easy for this sort of class structure to get into an industry. Many people move around in the same industry, it exists in most places, and it stays due to sheer weight of numbers.

One might argue that people of a similar disposition banding together and "fighting" against people of another is natural. Human beings have been doing that since the dawn of time. Could be a nature vs. nurture type argument, but my opinion is that cliques are natural, largely unpreventable, and the actual task at hand is teaching folks what is going too far. I don't think humans yet have the opportunity to totally subvert nature, but we can bring in some frontal lobe goodness and moderate the outcome.

When I worked for A Very Large Phone Company I had the opportunity to work in several different offices, and it was interesting to me how office hierarchies emerged. It wasn't always predictable. In some offices, office drones treated pole monkeys like second class citizens, in other offices pole monkeys would literally steal sales pukes' lunch money. No rhyme or reason to what group might be on top at any given branch, but in every branch people with similar jobs, sharing similar problems, rallied against people with different jobs - especially if those people could be reasonably perceived as being a source of difficulty. Things rarely got out of control, and at company functions everyone got along great - often with a lot of stories about branch antics. Although maybe not ideal, people banding together - even against other groups banding together - created empathy and motivation. The hierarchy was not pay-based, skill-based, or education-based. It emerged organically, almost randomly.

Frankly, I think there are two types of people in this world: Empathic types who, like you, are inclined to smile at strangers because you'd like a smile back and are nice to wait staff because you appreciate the fact they're doing a job you don't want to do. You also have the apathetic or even contemptuous types who are looking for someone to shit on wherever they go, and probably doesn't care whether it's the waiter or the plumber or their own offspring. Their behavior is likely moderated by a basic understanding of consequence so while they might bite their tongue when being written a ticket, they aren't going to hold back with a server. I don't think this basic component of human design has its origins in class - but it certainly becomes apparent when power structures are involved. Obviously, the further beyond reproach you are the more people you can shit on.

Yw-slayer
June 10th, 2014, 09:58 AM
Hey! What about the people in the middle? You apathetic, contemptuous SOB!

thesameguy
June 10th, 2014, 10:11 AM
There is only one person in the middle, and that's Malcolm.

JoshInKC
June 10th, 2014, 02:09 PM
I thought Malcolm was in The Thick of It
637

thesameguy
June 10th, 2014, 02:14 PM
I think he's pretty clearly in the middle

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/1a/Malcolm_in_the_Middle.png

Whether that area also constitutes its thickness I can't tell from my casual inspection.

George
June 10th, 2014, 02:27 PM
^ he looks so young!

(what's his name up there who played Dr. Mike Watley on Seinfeld and now looks like an old man in the crack show on AMC)

tigeraid
June 10th, 2014, 04:18 PM
Breaking Bad trolling is still trolling. :(

Yw-slayer
June 10th, 2014, 07:51 PM
Dudes, I complimented the taxi driver on his awesome audio setup (really, I actually noticed it because the songs sounded good, and saw that he'd upgraded his speakers) in his cab today. He seemed pleased and said it was just cheap stuff, but I said that it didn't matter, after all, it made a big difference (and indeed, I also put no-name iFi speakers in my BRZ). THEN I tipped him 10% of the fare in a city where that is very unusual. I'm totally #1ing today.

thesameguy
June 10th, 2014, 09:12 PM
You, sir, are a great American.

Yw-slayer
June 11th, 2014, 02:19 AM
I must admit that I am usually a massive prick to cold-callers. That is because, by and large, the local ones are instructed to lie.

[Unrecognised or witheld # on phone]
Cold-caller: *Sales pitch begins in rapidfire Cantonese etc.*
Answer: HELLO?
Cold-caller: *Pitch halts or there is stuttering as they recoil in shock from the fact that I spoke English*
Answer: HELLO? WHO ARE YOU LOOKING FOR?
Usual cold-caller response: (in broken English) Uh... can you speak Chinese/Cantonese?
Answer: NO. [I'm lying of course]
Usual cold-caller response: (in broken English) Sorry, wrong number.
[Hangs up]

The reason I do this is that the script they follow is total BS. You damn well knew what my number was before calling, and it damn well called the right #. Yet you choose to write a lie into the script so that I am not rude to your staff and demoralise them. In that case I'm not only going to lie to you, but be DAMN rude to you and them for wasting my time, making it less productive for you to hire cold-callers to harrass people.

Now some of them don't even say "Wrong number", but just hang up after I say "No". So I've escalated it further and sometimes if I'm having a particularly bad day, or am particularly busy, I will just hang up when they ask whether I speak Chinese.

My friend has also tried to be polite to some, but they just continue to lie in order to get a sale. My friend said "I'm not interested in a loan" as the guy was calling from a supposedly reputable international bank with whom he did not bank, and most of these people try and sell loans. The caller interrupted him and said "Can you let me finish? This is not a loan". He was taken aback and said "OK, go on". Of course the product he outlined was a loan (consolidating all of your credit card debts into a single card, with a new loan being advanced). When pressed, he continued to deny it. There is no reasoning with people like that, so he just hung up.

Am I being a horrible human being? Maybe, but I don't think this is necessarily being a Type 2 personality. I'm not going to sit there and waste my time listening to some BS spiel, it's a waste of everyone's time, both mine and theirs. Do I need to be rude about it? Maybe not, but why not if they're going to lie about why they're calling to me anyway?

(this is also a type of screening mechanism, since someone who is calling me from a legitimate organisation which I sought contact from should either be able to speak English, or be able to find someone to speak to me in English, or at least make the effort to do either)

I don't think this is because I see them as a "different class" of person, though. It's more that they irritate the fuck out of me when they lie, as they are instructed to.

Leon
June 11th, 2014, 02:50 AM
My method is easier. Unless I'm expecting a phone call, I don't answer the phone at home.

So if my friends want to ring me, they know to send me a text to say that they're about to ring :)

Godson
June 11th, 2014, 03:17 AM
Wait...Lawyers lie?




Mind Blown

Yw-slayer
June 11th, 2014, 04:04 AM
These guys somehow get my mobile. But it's usually pretty obvious that they're cold-callers. My dad just doesn't answer weird #s.

Crazed_Insanity
June 11th, 2014, 06:56 AM
Yes, young Slayer, I'm like your father! When I don't expect a call and don't recognize a #, I usually don't answer. Makes life simpler for everybody.

Still, one of the most funny experiences I've had with them telemarketers is one day I had plenty of time to waste so I decided to continue to entertain the guy. I let him talk and I occasionally ask questions leading him on..., but when it comes time to make the sale, I just kept on saying no. Of course, he wouldn't take no for an answer, so he kept on trying harder to make his case..., I listened... and eventually still said no. After several iterations, the guy finally gave up. Asking me why did I wasted so much of his time? I only replied... because I enjoy listening to his voice! :D

I'm sure he'll never call me again!

Someday if I have more time to waste again, I think I'm going to talk to my next telemarketer about Jesus. ;)

Yw-slayer
June 11th, 2014, 08:01 AM
:lol: at the Jesus one. I had a friend who used to live with a housemate called Jesus (who also had the beard etc.). Whenever Jehovah's Witnesses turned up he would always tell them that his housemate might be interested and would turn around and call for Jesus, then leave.

Having said that,deliberately stringing telemarketers along is, IMO, more dickish than being rude and hanging up. After all, they get misled and it gives them less time to call someone else.

Kchrpm
June 11th, 2014, 08:02 AM
If they get paid by the hour instead of by the sale, than leading them on is better for everyone.

Crazed_Insanity
June 11th, 2014, 08:27 AM
Never been a telemarketer nor do I know anyone who works in that industry, but I'd imagine they're getting paid mostly by commission based on the sales they made. Otherwise my guy wouldn't be so pissed off!

Anyway, if I were to hire people to do telemarketing, surely I wouldn't pay them by the hour.

BTW, during that particular incidence, it really wasn't intentionally done to waste his time. I'm not that evil. I really wanted to just hang up but was trying not to be rude..., but he just didn't give me an opportunity to do it in a nice way. That's why I eventually gave up trying to hang up and just went along with him since I got nothing better to do anyway... I was initially shocked that I ended up pissing him off and caused him to hang up on me! ;)

thesameguy
June 11th, 2014, 09:12 AM
Yeah, I think those guys get paid per sale, but it may vary depending on locality & business. In the US, I think most of them are work from home types, not official employees in a call center. Obviously you get those too, but the shady callers are "self employed contractors" thus getting their "employer" out of all sorts of costs.

I don't have a home phone, but when I did and would receive telemarketing calls I would wait til the person took their first breath then ask them to get the point, and that if they were selling something I was not interested. Some folks would try and twist their pitch so it sounded like they were with a company I already did business with, or calling about a service I already had, but I would just repeat myself and tell them if they didn't get to the point I would hang up on them. Usually they would get to the point, sometimes I would end up hanging up. I used to be pretty rude, but I came to grips with the fact the telemarketers probably didn't want to be making the calls any more than I wanted to receive them and taking out that frustration on them wasn't productive.

These days, the calls I get are all automated calls, which I DESPISE. All the rudeness of telemarketing with an robot behind it. At least traditional telemarketing gave someone a job, even if it was a shitty one. Robots calling me (illegal) on my cell phone (illegal) just pisses me off. Usually what I do is answer the call and at the first sign it's a robot just set the phone down. I don't pay for my minutes and those guys do, so I just tie up one of their outbound lines and ring up some charges for them. Sometimes, when I'm feeling saucy I'll go through the voice prompts until the system finally turns me over to a live person, whom I tell I'm very happy they called because my law firm is making big money filing class-action lawsuits against robocallers and any information they can provide about their company including location, ownership, and contact info would be very much appreciated. Then I've tied up a line, racked up charges, tied up a person, and put some fear into them. YEAH!

21Kid
June 11th, 2014, 09:45 AM
Back to the original topic... :p I'm sure that we can all agree that you shouldn't treat your co-workers or employees as a different class of people based on their job. I'm sure that it does happen and those people are dicks. But, the majority of people (that I know) don't treat people like others are below them.
Because guess what... if that person isn't doing that job, you'll have to! ;)

I think the 2nd part of it, about how you treat other people who are providing you a service or something similar, is a little different. They're probably glad to have a job and may even be proud of what they do. Personally, I wouldn't do their job for them as that is how they put food on the table, and if their employer sees them not doing their job, they could get fired. If they are super busy, or they're pregnant, or something where they might need help, I would offer to help.

As far as tipping. I'm still confused as to how some people think that this is mandatory. :? A tip is something that is given for extraordinary service. Why would you pay them in addition to what the service/product costs, for lousy service?
There are plenty of people that do amazing work at their job that don't get tips. I've known great workers at McDonalds, UPS, USPS, banks, CTA, etc... that go above and beyond what is required of them and they never receive tips.
If you're going to reward people because you feel a need to help out those less fortunate, do you tip all people that probably don't have health insurance, or make a decent wage?

thesameguy
June 11th, 2014, 10:21 AM
As far as tipping. I'm still confused as to how some people think that this is mandatory. :?

Mandatory, no, but possibly in poor taste not to, yes. In California, for example, businesses can pay restaurant employees below minimum wage because those employees have the opportunity to earn tips. It is expected that the average server is going to make minimum wage by making up their pay deficiency with tips. If you don't tip the average server, you are actively penalizing them (vis a vis other minimum wage employees) for being average. It can be especially bad if you get screwed with slow shifts, or occupied with a big group that prevents you from attending other customers - who then undertips. Secondly, our friends at the IRS have goofy fucking rules for taxing tips so that even if you don't make tips, you might be taxed on them. The IRS has agreements with many restaurants to establish average tip rates, and then uses that database to hammer on restaurants who don't have them. Essentially, the economy of industries where tipping is common/expected have special rules that make not getting tips potentially equal to being penalized. Yeah, it's a free market and these guys have the chance to be stellar servers and really make those tips count, but jeez, that's harsh.

This stuff does not extend to every Tom, Dick & Harry who puts a tip jar by the cash register... just industries where tipping is expected. When you order that Jamba Juice and leave a tip, that isn't the same. However, anecdotally, I think most places that allow employees to place a tip jar are minimum wage type shops and generally staffed by younger people. I'm okay with giving kids a little extra to help buy their first car or pay for college or whatever. Having worked with companies with this sort of structure I've shared in the end of day joy of splitting up the tip jar, and personally am more than happy to be a part of it. Everyone is happy to get a little something extra. To some degree, I'm also buying future consideration - because when you treat your employees right they treat you right, and leaving a big fatty tip is a great way to get that ball rolling. :)

Crazed_Insanity
June 11th, 2014, 11:03 AM
Back to the original topic... :p I'm sure that we can all agree that you shouldn't treat your co-workers or employees as a different class of people based on their job. I'm sure that it does happen and those people are dicks.

Well, we all have different job 'classifications'. So it comes with the job! If we completely 'declassify' everyone, we won't ever get promotions and we also wouldn't know which department we're actually working for! ;) So I really don't think there's anything wrong with different 'class' of people. We all have different specialties and different experience levels..., it's okay for us to classify people into various classifications, yes, just as long as we don't be dicks to one another.



As far as tipping. I'm still confused as to how some people think that this is mandatory. :? A tip is something that is given for extraordinary service. Why would you pay them in addition to what the service/product costs, for lousy service?

As far as I know, if I really think I received lousy service, for sure I wouldn't leave ANY tips. There's no law requiring us to leave tips no matter what. However, considering how lowly paid some of the servers are, even if it's average level of service, in their eyes, you'd look like a dick if you don't leave any tips.

21Kid
June 11th, 2014, 11:28 AM
:smh: Billi

Crazed_Insanity
June 11th, 2014, 01:06 PM
I'm sorry, can you explain why you're shaking your head with regard to my comments?

novicius
June 11th, 2014, 01:27 PM
*Lights cigar with 10 x USD100 bills*

*Makes encrypted satellite phone call from 350-foot yacht named "SUCK IT DOWN LOSERS VIII"*
#winning :lol: :up:

jimeezlady
June 15th, 2014, 07:48 PM
“If a man is called to be a street sweeper, he should sweep streets even as a Michaelangelo painted, or Beethoven composed music or Shakespeare wrote poetry. He should sweep streets so well that all the hosts of heaven and earth will pause to say, 'Here lived a great street sweeper who did his job well.”

Yw-slayer
June 18th, 2014, 04:47 PM
There's also this dude:http://www.cnn.com/2014/06/18/world/asia/chen-guangbiao-free-lunch/

21Kid
June 18th, 2014, 05:40 PM
Classy