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View Full Version : Let's discuss... Elio.



thesameguy
June 29th, 2014, 02:04 PM
I had heard NOTHING about this thing, but I am a little intrigued.

http://imgick.mlive.com/home/mlive-media/pgmain/img/grandrapidspress/photo/2013/06/-a23874c2b174e86a.JPG

It's a 1+1 trike with a ~50hp inline three tugging 1200lbs. Claimed 84mpg, expected price under $7k.

Reviews of it are pretty bad - doesn't drive well, is slow, is cramped - stuff that was said about Hyundai Excels and Yugos back in the day. I think America has largely forgotten (quickly) how terrible super cheap cars were. The Elio is like 60% the price of the cheapest car in America, but probably better than 60% as well equipped.

Honestly, I am intrigued - everything Elio is saying about Elios rings true based on my experiences with the Fiat - most people would never notice the loss of big car features most of the time. The Elio still costs about twice what the Fiat does to run, although $7k buys the Elio outright and $4k rents the 500e for three years. Maybe the TCO ends up being similar.

It appears the Elio is classified as a motorcycle in most places, but that's no guarantee. If it is, and that means emissions exemption, I'd be VERY curious about engine swaps for a diesel of some sort - because the potential of tiny diesel cars fascinates me.

On the downside, Elio still doesn't have a manufacturing plan or even a fully realized prototype, so who knows if this will actually happen. It could just be more Aptera-esque hype. Hilariously, though, they have already struck a deal with Pep Boys for service and warranty concerns. Since they are a motorcycle in most places, they can be direct marketed without Tesla-type dealer hangups.

Anywho, WTF?

Godson
June 29th, 2014, 02:11 PM
hmmm... Why not just buy a motorcycle?

Random
June 29th, 2014, 02:24 PM
Motorcycles fall over and people run into them and there's no protection from the weather.

Dicknose
June 29th, 2014, 02:29 PM
Trikes roll over!

You have 3 wheel tracks, so will find more potholes and debris on the road.

I just can't see the advantage of a 3 wheel car

thesameguy
June 29th, 2014, 02:58 PM
I think in this case the advantages are weight and licensing. Elio gets around a LOT of legal requirements by making a "motorcycle," including crash testing, emissions, and distribution. Maybe others. But those advantages surely keep the price and probably the weight down even further. Totally agree the comfort & performance of three wheels is dumb compared to either 2-wheeled or 4-wheel vehicles.

It is interesting to me, along with the three wheels, that Elio went long instead of wide - occupants sitting 1+1 instead of abreast. One of the nice things about the Smart is you can park it perpendicularly instead of parallel parking. The Elio is too long to do that - so its advantage would be ultra-narrow parking spaces... which seems a pretty limited skill. Although maybe cramming it into a crowded garage is useful, or maybe into dedicated motorcycle parking? How awesome/annoying would that be? :D IMHO, it should have been like the McLaren or CRX, 1+2/2+1. Maybe that configuration causes issues with its motorcycle classification.

Drachen596
June 29th, 2014, 03:44 PM
Its a Can Am Spyder with a cabin.

Godson
June 29th, 2014, 03:47 PM
Except it isn't.

speedpimp
June 29th, 2014, 03:53 PM
I just can't see the advantage of a 3 wheel car

In the US its a way of skirting a lot of Federal regulations that apply to 4 wheeled cars.


Also it looks like a Mustang banged a New Beetle and then the middle was cut out of the offspring.

Rare White Ape
June 30th, 2014, 03:40 AM
It's a huge bucket of fail.

MR2 Fan
June 30th, 2014, 04:33 AM
I would have rather had one of these...GM Lean Machine...early 1980's concept

http://www.schultzengineering.us/lean82.jpg

novicius
June 30th, 2014, 07:11 AM
I like reverse trikes but so far the Campagna Motors T-Rex (http://www.campagnamotors.com/) is the best I've seen.

http://www.thikthak.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/2013-Campagna-T-Rex-16S-01.jpg

Just needs to have an enclosed cabin and a *far* more realistic price tag. :lol:

Actually, BMW needs to make an S1000RR-powered enclosed trike with ABS, airbags & stability control (so it can be sold in the U.S.) (http://www.autoblog.com/2013/05/06/2013-campagna-t-rex-16s-first-drive-review-video/)... :twisted:

KillerB
June 30th, 2014, 07:28 AM
TTAC has been covering this thing for a while. They have secured the old GM plant in Shreveport, Louisiana for manufacturing.

thesameguy
June 30th, 2014, 09:28 AM
Yeah, but turns out they haven't. No paperwork has been signed, it's all promises. They almost lost it a month ago, and they won't be prepared to occupy it for months. Someone could absolutely sweep in and snatch it up, like what happened in Michigan, like what almost just happened there.

WRT to the Lean Machine, someone did end up making it:

http://www.slashgear.com/gallery/data_files/7/4/Carver_One.jpg

The Carver One.

Crazed_Insanity
June 30th, 2014, 09:31 AM
Lean Machine looks good, but not the Carver One...

Anyway, I think Elio has the right idea... trike configuration is not only taking a legal advantage of avoiding the red tape of meeting car regulations, but it's also an aerodynamic advantage too. Inline seating like that pretty much reduced the frontal area by half... thus they're able to immediately double hwy MPGs... from the typical fuel efficient 40mpg to 80mpg by just using off the shelf technologies.

What kinda threw me off a bit was that I originally thought Elio is RWD with some sort of motorcycle powerplant..., but instead, it's actually FWD! So I suppose their 3wheel configuration is purely to take advantage of the legal loophole. But perhaps having just a single rear wheel saves them weight? Also, with less parts, chances are it'd be cheaper?

Unless it's just so horrible to drive, I'd certainly consider getting one as a commuter... since I do about 60miles/day! With such a cheap initial price and great gas mileage... they have to seriously mess it up with their engineering in order to not have me as their customer.

Dicknose
June 30th, 2014, 10:28 AM
Billi, 3 wheelies are not as stable as 4.
Interestingly they are not as stable as 2 when cornering. (But more stable when stopped)
They do tend to roll over. Made worse the closer the centre of mass is to the single wheel. Putting a 2nd person behind nearer the rear would make it less stable and more likely to roll over.

As for regs, it's a double edge sword. Here if you fall under motorcycle rules then you need a motorcycle license and helmet. That's considered a bigger pain than passing car regs.

novicius
June 30th, 2014, 12:07 PM
Hawt. :shocker:

http://www.artcaragency.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/red-stiletto-art-car-david-crow-art-car-agency-photo-harrod-blank-rs11.jpg

novicius
June 30th, 2014, 12:15 PM
I want this, even if it's only 15 HP. :cool:

http://cdn.futuretechnology500.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/hawk-future-car.jpg

Btw, how much do clothes cost in the Matrix? :assclown:

Random
June 30th, 2014, 01:19 PM
Rear 3/4 on that one says "Slave I" to me. :D

<-- nerd.

Drachen596
July 1st, 2014, 06:20 AM
There is a two wheeled vehicle somewhat similar to the gm one however I cant remember the name. Its got training wheel like things that drop down when you stop to balance it.

Crazed_Insanity
July 1st, 2014, 08:12 AM
Billi, 3 wheelies are not as stable as 4.
Interestingly they are not as stable as 2 when cornering. (But more stable when stopped)
They do tend to roll over. Made worse the closer the centre of mass is to the single wheel. Putting a 2nd person behind nearer the rear would make it less stable and more likely to roll over.

As for regs, it's a double edge sword. Here if you fall under motorcycle rules then you need a motorcycle license and helmet. That's considered a bigger pain than passing car regs.

Good point... if Elio is classified as a bike, would the occupants be legally expected to wear helmets? Personally I wouldn't mind, but for sure people who really care about their the looks of their hair would! ;)

Regarding stability, I agree with you that trikes are not as stable. But I think 2 wheels at the front should be way more stable than the other way around, right? Since most of the time when we turn... we would decelerate and shift cg forward. On track or autoX, you would often see cars lifting up their inside rear wheel during hard cornering too, right? So perhaps the ideal 3 wheeler would be the reverse configuration of GMs lean machine. 2 wheels in front and with a pivoting 3rd rear wheel in the back... so the driver won't roll with the vehicle as bikers do during cornering!

Anyway, reduction of # of wheels should reduce aero drag as well..., but if you install good fairings and minimize wheel exposure to the flow, # of wheels probably won't make that much of a difference in aero drag... Most important thing is that inline seating configuration to reduce frontal area. Either make it really narrow... or really low like supercars.

BTW, that 15HP Hawk future car really looks awesome!:up:

Drachen596
July 1st, 2014, 09:19 AM
Depends on state law regarding helmets I would imagine.

Dunno about the Elio but the CanAm Spyder is a 2 in front 1 rear wheel design and has some serious stability control program to keep its wheels planted.

side note some states have motorcycle license restrictions that allow you to take the test on a three wheeled bike that then limit you to ONLY trikes and reverse trikes from what I understand.

thesameguy
July 1st, 2014, 10:56 AM
The Spyder is also very short and has a mid-mounted engine. The Elio is much longer and decidedly front engine - all the mass of note should be way up front. Based on the pictures, the COG is also probably pretty low (occupants sitting on the ground), whereas the Can Am is probably pretty high (sitting on the engine). I suspect it'll be reasonably stable, though probably not terribly grippy out back. Maybe somewhat prone to [snap] oversteer, but probably not tipping.

novicius
July 1st, 2014, 11:50 AM
Billi, 3 wheelies are not as stable as 4.
Interestingly they are not as stable as 2 when cornering. (But more stable when stopped)
They do tend to roll over. Made worse the closer the centre of mass is to the single wheel. Putting a 2nd person behind nearer the rear would make it less stable and more likely to roll over.
What tends to roll over? Honda Goldwing/H-D Ultra trikes? Or what reverse trikes are being mass-produced right now?

Something like the Campagna T-Rex is both a reversed trike and has a super-low CoG thanks to not having the rider/passenger sitting on top of the engine but in front of it. It also only has a wheelbase of 90"; if you extended the platform to, say, a Corvette C7's 106" wheelbase length, that would increase stability. It wouldn't be as stable as the C7 but simply speaking the longer the wheelbase, the greater the area under the trike and therefore an even more stable platform.

As you know better than I, it all comes down to how you engineer it. ;)

Kchrpm
June 24th, 2016, 09:16 AM
http://bgr.com/2016/06/24/elio-motors-news-update-interview/

thesameguy
June 24th, 2016, 11:41 AM
I still have high hopes for this vehicle. I think it represents a lot of different desirable attributes, from economy to accessibility. I keep thinking about putting in a reservation but I just can't see my want to need from want.

Drachen596
June 24th, 2016, 12:16 PM
Still consider this to be as much vaporware as the Skully motorcycle helmets. They have supposedly shipped but no owner reports. Just a few reviews from vloggers.

They keep pushing back production dates for the Elio. In development since 2008 and they started taking deposiys in 2013.

thesameguy
June 24th, 2016, 12:18 PM
It's hard to start a company. It's harder to start an auto company.

Drachen596
June 24th, 2016, 12:24 PM
Also here in Indiana 3 wheel means motorcycle license required.

of course it's harder but they have basically spent three years pushing back production date. Who takes deposits with out a 90% solid production date?

thesameguy
June 24th, 2016, 12:34 PM
Tesla?

Drachen596
June 24th, 2016, 12:35 PM
Which one of their cars are you talking about?

Kchrpm
June 24th, 2016, 12:36 PM
Someone that needs more money.

It very much depends on what was promised with the deposits. I've no idea in any direction, they could be well aware that the delivery date of their product is nearly unknown and may never come, or they could have thought it was a guarantee to the second, or anywhere in between. I'll let them handle their own lawsuits if they were misled.

thesameguy
June 24th, 2016, 12:39 PM
All of them?

The S was delayed several months (six or eight)
The X was delayed nearly two years (2013 to 2015)
The 3 was supposed to be delivered the end of this year, best estimates now are end of next year

thesameguy
June 24th, 2016, 12:42 PM
Someone that needs more money.

It very much depends on what was promised with the deposits. I've no idea in any direction, they could be well aware that the delivery date of their product is nearly unknown and may never come, or they could have thought it was a guarantee to the second, or anywhere in between. I'll let them handle their own lawsuits if they were misled.

Indeed. Producing new cars on a speculative basis in '16 would be insane if it were even possible.

Drachen596
June 24th, 2016, 12:59 PM
Did Teslas do it with the roadster as well?

For the models you listed above theyd already proven they could actually produce cars.

Plus has anyone seen an actual production model of the Elio yet? Articles seem to be only about the prototypes.

maybe I'm just really cynical about these things especially when the promises seem a bit too good to be true things.

Kchrpm
June 24th, 2016, 01:10 PM
Did Teslas do it with the roadster as well?

Yes.

http://www.mercurynews.com/business/ci_7001525


Tesla Motors announced the third delay for its widely anticipated electric cars, saying the first of its Roadster models wouldn't arrive until the first quarter of 2008.
...........
Tesla has taken about 600 orders for the two-seat Roadster model that will cost about $100,000. It will be built in England by Lotus. The company originally had promised its first cars by summer 2007, but that slipped to before the end of year.
...........
Tesla said it would soon stop taking orders for its 2008 Roadster, since the entire production run is nearly spoken for. A $5,000 deposit will be required of those wanting to get on the waiting list for a 2009 model.

Not only were they delaying it, multiple times for months at a time, they were still taking orders and deposits for it during the delays.

Kchrpm
January 9th, 2017, 06:04 AM
http://jalopnik.com/elio-motors-future-looks-doubtful-with-100-000-in-the-1790947889


Elio Motors, the company that keeps delaying its three-wheeler street car with a price so cheap it’s almost too good to be true, may never get one of those cars on the market. If that doesn’t come as a surprise to you, this may: Elio says it has about $100,000 in the bank and an over $123 million deficit.

thesameguy
January 9th, 2017, 08:06 AM
Yeah, I've been following them. I'm not sure what precisely they did or didn't do wrong, but it just confirms how difficult it is to be a new car company these days. A good idea and some help isn't even remotely enough. IMHO the government needs to ease off on these companies somehow or there will be no more competition.

Kchrpm
January 9th, 2017, 08:11 AM
Or this was someone that was completely unprepared to do the job right in the first place, but more than willing to give himself a quarter million dollars a year to give it a shot.

thesameguy
January 9th, 2017, 09:02 AM
I do understand your point, but $250k for a CEO in charge of business of Elio's overall size & financials is hardly out of whack. Considering he's pocketed $1.75m since '09 and their debt is $123m, it really doesn't seem like his salary is even on the list of causes for the situation. Having an extra $2m right now wouldn't change the headline one iota.

I'm sure bad decisions were made, but at the same time it should not cost hundreds of millions of dollars to develop a shitty $7,000 car. It really seems like a problem with regulations to me. I don't know how to fix it, but unless we do we'll be relying on the Big Ten to fill the world's automotive needs forever.

Crazed_Insanity
January 9th, 2017, 09:33 AM
Well, Elon Musk overcame regulations... and I'm sure his premium car with 4 wheels probably had to overcome way MORE regulations than Elio's 3 wheel tricycle!

I think it all comes down to founder's problem solving abilities... along with hiring the right folks with just as much problem solving abilities...

A lot of new car companies failed. It must be because there are a lot of problems to overcome. For sure regulations can be difficult to meet, but it's obviously been proven to be not impossible. I'm sure SpaceX has even greater regulations to overcome.

So either the idea itself just wasn't right from the start or the company just doesn't have enough problem solvers.

Elio developed their own engine, right? They should've just went ahead with Geo Metro engine and have their 1st generation car doing 66mpg. Yeah, it's old tech, but still much higher MPG than anything we have in the market. Surely somebody will buy that and allow your company to generate some income earlier... where as instead you invest more money and time to develop and brand new engine... yeah, it gives you better mpg on paper, but where's the car now?

Since premium wasn't what they're shooting for, they really should just go with as much off the self parts as possible and just get it out on the market as quickly as possible... and then tinker with it and improve it.

Anyway, at the moment, the CEO's salary could just be $1 and it'd still be too much. Still, I'm sure CEO salary is the least of Elio's current problems.

thesameguy
January 9th, 2017, 09:51 AM
It's a lot easier to spread out development costs over a $70,000 car than a $7,000 car. Musk has a LOT more wiggle room than Elio. It's not even remotely a fair comparison, and that right there illustrates the point. If you want to make a handful of million dollar cars to suit the ultra-rich go right ahead, but if you want to make tens of thousands of cheap cars for the average guy you're hosed. I'm sure not by intention, but by result again the rich are catered to and the poor can't get a break.

Having been in a couple VC-funded businesses, there is a lot of complexity when it comes to management salaries. The $1 CEO looks really bad to investors - like either an acknowledgement the business won't work or an indictment on his talents or a concern that he's not adequately incentivized to stick around. When seeking funding, maintaining appearances is important.

Crazed_Insanity
January 9th, 2017, 10:57 AM
Fisker Karma would be more comparable to Tesla, right? They couldn't wiggle their way out of trouble.

I don't really know the details of what's really going on, but suffice to say Tesla overcame their problems and pretty much all other new start up auto companies couldn't. Of course Tesla isn't completely out of trouble waters yet..., but has certainly gone further than other companies.

Anyway, I really think Elio should've just start producing as early as possible... in order to produce as much as possible... can't take forever developing something.

Regarding CEO pay, yeah, unless you're a proven CEO in a proven company, $1 salary probably isn't a good idea nor does it look good to anybody.

XHawkeye
August 11th, 2017, 04:36 PM
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2017/08/elio-throws-financial-hail-mary-nasdaq-ipo-filing/


I’m sure that the upcoming IPO gives Paul Elio and what remains of his team hope but I’ve said all along, getting to production was going to be a long shot for Elio Motors. After some boom years, the American passenger-vehicle market has slowed. Even when it was booming, the stock prices for the American automakers didn’t reflect that. Investors put their money elsewhere. Now that the overall market is shrinking, if investors are shying away from Ford, which made about $10 billion last year, I don’t see the market embracing Elio’s IPO.

Still, for a few weeks it appeared that Elio Motors was circling the drain but maybe, just maybe, this IPO will turn things around.

Drachen596
August 12th, 2017, 01:47 AM
I think they're done for unless something really crazy happens. Although they may benefit somewhat from Polaris pushing really hard to get their 3 wheeled Slingshots classified as cars and not motorcycles by state DMVs.

Thats of course provided they EVER bring a vehicle to market. Its been nearly 10 years and many prototypes.