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View Full Version : RX-7 to return with 450hp twin-scroll turbo 16X ?



samoht
July 11th, 2014, 03:03 PM
The latest episode in the long-running news series 'The RX-7's Return' has been released via the usual channels (Australian car websites)

http://www.motoring.com.au/news/mazda/rx-7/new-rx-7-to-get-335kw-turbo-rotary-44652

In the last episode, Mazda were seriously considering a normally-aspirated version of the enigmatic "16X" new-gen rotary, inserted into a compact coupe based on the MX-5.

However in the latest twist, the marketing department point out that while a sensible package, those numbers wouldn't excite the market. So the R&D guys are now apparently testing a 450hp twin-scroll turbo setup, with the aim of producing an outright 911 rival, using a significantly shortened version of the strong RX-8 platform.

The rotary romantics (like me and the people who write these articles) are thinking how great it would be if Mazda were to roll out a lightweight, balanced car with serious power in 2017, 50 years after they launched the original Cosmo.

Will it happen? Who knows, the world economy is growing and Initial D is popular in China, so maybe some well-off Chinese would like a direct successor to Keisuke's famous yellow FD? Hope it does happen, it could be awesome, but I won't hold my breath!

thesameguy
July 11th, 2014, 03:24 PM
You know, I'm torn. A rotary powered slightly bigger Miata would be a great BRZ competitor - I'd be interested! I can't deny the attraction of a much, um, more car - but can Mazda actually compete with Porsche in the market? I'm not so sure. Fingers crossed either way!

KillerB
July 11th, 2014, 03:55 PM
Well, they could compete just fine if they followed their old model of similar performance at 3/5ths the price.

File this one under notgonnahappen.com. :(

thesameguy
July 11th, 2014, 04:31 PM
Your link doesn't work.

neanderthal
July 11th, 2014, 08:14 PM
Well, they could compete just fine if they followed their old model of similar performance at 3/5ths the price.

File this one under notgonnahappen.com. :(

That link isn't working for me either, lol.

Rare White Ape
July 11th, 2014, 08:39 PM
It's 2014. Don't you know that all the sarcastic links are hashtags now?

KillerB
July 11th, 2014, 10:44 PM
My only defense is that I'm old!

Considering I not only tweet but I own TWTR stock (which has... shall we say... not made me any money yet), I guess that's not much of an excuse.

samoht
July 12th, 2014, 03:28 AM
can Mazda actually compete with Porsche in the market? I'm not so sure. Fingers crossed either way!

I suppose Nissan have managed it with the R35, so it's not beyond the realms of possibility that Mazda could. If they really went for it, which still pretty dubious of.

FaultyMario
July 12th, 2014, 09:04 AM
I saw your medieval bunny post on FB, let me se If I can find you a twitfeed with all sorts of historical oddities like that. Joe L. there as well?

KillerB
July 12th, 2014, 10:31 AM
@joelatshaw

21Kid
September 21st, 2015, 11:31 AM
Mazda still has a team working on rotary engines (http://www.autoblog.com/2015/09/20/mazda-rotary-engine-team)


The flame still burns within Mazda to stage a rotary engine revival. Before you start getting excited, it's way too soon to start saving money for the fabled, next-gen RX-7 or RX-8. Still, company boss Masamichi Kogai confirmed to Autocar that the Japanese automaker has an engineering team dedicated to improving the Wankel.

samoht
September 29th, 2015, 10:52 PM
Well, they're thinking about a closed sports car, or at least a concept for one for the TMS

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CQIc6o7UYAAkZnv.jpg:large

21Kid
September 30th, 2015, 05:22 AM
There's still hope... :lol:

Freude am Fahren
September 30th, 2015, 07:12 AM
Doesn't appear to be covered in rotary shaped accents, but I'm still kinda excited. Kinda looks like a fastback Miata. Proportions are off for that though, unless it has a TINY greenhouse with a really low roof line.

KillerB
September 30th, 2015, 08:29 AM
A new RX-7 - complete with rotary engine - is the one car I would put a preorder deposit down on today.

The lack of a bubble-back hatch makes me a sad banana, though. :sadbanana:

The359
September 30th, 2015, 08:38 AM
If this is BRZ sized, tempting...

KillerB
September 30th, 2015, 09:05 AM
I would imagine that the only two possible platforms for this are the Miata or maybe the Toyobaru now that Mazda and Toyota are getting cuddly. I'd wager it being a slightly stretched Miata though.

For me, it's got to be a rotary or nothing. Back east, I would have preferred a coupe body regardless, but out here, if it's going to be effectively a Miata coupe, I'll take the droptop.

thesameguy
September 30th, 2015, 09:48 AM
I think calling a non-rotary "RX" would be an epic travesty. If it's a Miata Coupe with a boinger, though, that's cool and I'd be interested. I'm not really into roadsters and I find the GT underwhelming. Something RX8ish (by numbers), even if it's a conventional engine, would pique my interest. Every time I drive my buddy's 8 I am reminded exactly how awesome that car is, and how the GT just needs more power.

KillerB
September 30th, 2015, 12:24 PM
Yeah I would imagine they'd call it an MX-7 or something if it doesn't have a rotary.

neanderthal
October 27th, 2015, 06:20 AM
Maybe i'm late, but posted today.

Jalopnik. (http://jalopnik.com/mazda-confirms-their-sports-car-concept-will-have-a-new-1738916061?rev=1445953673925)

thesameguy
October 27th, 2015, 10:02 AM
FANTASTICAL!

Random
October 27th, 2015, 10:09 AM
The version after that can be SkyActiv-R-R.

thesameguy
October 27th, 2015, 10:24 AM
http://img.countryporch.com/darice/images/1052-80P.jpg

Kchrpm
October 27th, 2015, 10:50 AM
That would be R-D-R-R.

KillerB
October 27th, 2015, 12:38 PM
Well damn. I'm ready to write a deposit check, Mazda!

KillerB
October 27th, 2015, 04:21 PM
http://www.autoblog.com/2015/10/27/mazda-rx-vision-concept-rotary-official/

Freude am Fahren
October 27th, 2015, 05:00 PM
So is that Vision as in a GT Vision? I haven't seen anything about GT mentioned.

CudaMan
October 27th, 2015, 05:30 PM
Shame about the styling. Good thing it's only a concept. I know the FD is a hard act to follow, but I know Mazda can do better than this. It's okay, has a couple interesting ideas, but overall meh.

Regardless, 2-seat sports car with a fixed roof gets two big thumbs up from me. :)

samoht
October 27th, 2015, 11:56 PM
Some pics from Speedhunters:
http://www.speedhunters.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/Mazda-RX-Vision-04-800x533.jpg
http://www.speedhunters.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/Mazda-RX-Vision-05-800x533.jpg
http://www.speedhunters.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/Mazda-RX-Vision-07-800x533.jpg

It seems very exaggerated, quite cartoon-like, in the huge wheels, long bonnet and low greenhouse. It also reminds me a lot of Mercedes, both their Vision GT concept and the AMG GT production car it lead to. However, it's good-looking, and I could imagine a production car with more realistic proportions looking good based on these themes.

Mazda are aiming for something around the size and weight of a Cayman or slightly lighter (1400kg), according to Autocar, which sounds great to me. I think they are thinking along the right lines, if they can bring it to the point of production viability I trust they'll nail the handling, it's really whether they can develop it to production readiness at all.

Rare White Ape
October 28th, 2015, 12:36 AM
That concept looks like it could house a great big V12.

Zoom-zoom mother fucker.

GB
October 28th, 2015, 04:10 AM
It's got a nice ass.

Overall, I'm not feeling it.

KillerB
October 28th, 2015, 09:00 AM
That concept looks like it could house a great big 3-rotor

Zoom-zoom mother fucker.

FTFY

MR2 Fan
October 28th, 2015, 09:37 AM
I'd love to see that parked next to the last gen RX7 to compare how huge it is

thesameguy
October 28th, 2015, 10:08 AM
Aside from the looks, am I the only one who finds it funny that a rotary powered car has a hoodline suitable for a V16?

I would try and put that Mazda3 front end on an NSX-proportioned car and *still* make it FR.

Random
October 28th, 2015, 10:12 AM
Aside from the looks, am I the only one who finds it funny that a rotary powered car has a hoodline suitable for a V16?


Better than the reverse:
http://cdn.barrett-jackson.com/staging/carlist/items/Fullsize/Cars/49648/49648_Side_Profile_Web.jpg

2ndMoparMan
October 28th, 2015, 12:02 PM
I rather like it. Still not as nice as the FD, but it looks a lot better than the RX-8, that's for sure.

Freude am Fahren
October 28th, 2015, 01:06 PM
It is just a design concept. They have exaggerated proportions all the time. But I think they missed the point here. Rotary, small light, simble. So yeah, bad idea for a concept, so I'd hope a real production style concept would be MUCH smaller.

That said... Front Mid-Engine :up:

CudaMan
October 28th, 2015, 05:05 PM
I can't quite tell if it's actually really long, or in fact really low. Need a normal car next to it for scale.

Godson
October 28th, 2015, 06:50 PM
That concept looks like it could house a great big quad rotor.

Zoom-zoom mother fucker.

More correct ;)

KillerB
October 28th, 2015, 07:17 PM
What I can see of the interior (especially of the seats) makes it look really low. There's no one close enough to it in the pics I've seen to get a sense of scale.

Random
October 28th, 2015, 07:37 PM
http://www.autoblog.com/2015/10/27/mazda-rx-vision-concept-tokyo-2015/

Photographer stands next to it briefly in the video...looks just over waist high?

thesameguy
October 28th, 2015, 08:13 PM
Well, it's taller than the Fiero then...

Phil_SS
October 29th, 2015, 06:32 AM
I like the style but it looks Hugh Mungous.

Freude am Fahren
October 29th, 2015, 07:27 AM
And I loved how the FD always stood out against its competition for being so small. The Supra and GT-R looked like giants next to it.

Crazed_Insanity
October 29th, 2015, 12:15 PM
Anyway, it's a cool looking car just that the designer probably doesn't realize the advantages rotary engines have I guess...

The next gen S2000 should look like that! :p

JoshInKC
October 29th, 2015, 03:04 PM
Maybe it'll have a frunk. :lol:

samoht
October 31st, 2015, 08:14 AM
Interesting to see the FD3S influence in the interior:

http://images.pistonheads.com/nimg/33183/rx_vision_009-L.jpg
(pic from pistonheads.com)
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-M8CkR7FY6gA/VjToDS42S5I/AAAAAAAAO30/7iZVz-LL1UY/w1332-h889-no/DSC_0001.JPG

Note the high tunnel with short gearlever close to hand, and cluster of dials with the rev counter front and centre.

Also amusing that the concept seems to echo the aftermarket parts in my car, the gear knob and wheel, closer than the original OEM parts. I wonder if Mazda know that the reason why so many FD owners fit dished steering wheels isn't so much because they look cool, but to get space to fit their damn knees into the car!

CudaMan
October 31st, 2015, 09:37 AM
Anyone notice the low low redline of 8,000rpm on this concept? ;)

Crazed_Insanity
October 31st, 2015, 10:18 AM
And it could ultimately hit 10,000rpm!?!?!! Wow!

KillerB
October 31st, 2015, 12:59 PM
Yes, this + the long hood make me think that perhaps the solution to the flame front propagation issues that are part of the emissions and economy issues of the rotary have a potential solution with a larger number of smaller combustion chambers. In other words, 3 or more rotors.

Personally I think the interior and exterior both have a lot of cues and overall shapes from the FD.

21Kid
February 5th, 2016, 06:05 AM
Mazda engineer wants new rotary to be turbocharged (http://www.autoblog.com/2016/02/05/mazda-engineer-rotary-turbocharged-report/)




;)

XHawkeye
April 6th, 2016, 06:01 AM
New Spin: Mazda Files Patent for New-Gen Rotary Engine, Here’s What It Tells Us (http://blog.caranddriver.com/new-spin-mazda-files-patent-for-new-gen-rotary-engine-heres-what-it-tells-us/)

http://blog.caranddriver.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Mazda-SkyActiv-R-patent-application_lead-626x383.png

21Kid
April 6th, 2016, 09:29 AM
Hybrid rotary? :assclown:





The most interesting insight revealed by U.S. patent 2016/0084158 is Mazda’s intent to twirl its rotary engine 180 degrees about its longitudinal axis. This is feasible because, just like in piston engines, the internal components are happy converting air and fuel to torque and power no matter what their orientation.
neat

thesameguy
April 6th, 2016, 12:50 PM
I wonder if composite materials or coatings (ceramic, etc.) could improve the thermal efficiency of a rotary.

KillerB
April 6th, 2016, 04:50 PM
I've wondered why they don't turn it sideways so the ports are at the top and plugs are at the bottom. It would allow a turbo to be placed centrally above the engine and the plugs to be easily accessible from underneath.

It would require a dry sump (increasing cost) but a switch to a separate oil injection tank would eliminate the oil level issue.

Godson
April 6th, 2016, 05:10 PM
Laws of gravity would likely increase fouling issues.

Kchrpm
May 24th, 2016, 06:13 AM
http://www.autoblog.com/2016/05/24/mazda-rx-vision-rotary-production-chance-opinion/


"In the back rooms at Mazda, we're still developing it," Rice said, "and when the world's ready to buy another rotary, we'll be ready to provide it."

I'd like that to be a comforting statement, but given the realities of fuel economy and emissions regulations and Mazda's position in the market, it seems like a hollow platitude. "When the world's ready" is just another way of saying "when we solve the fundamental issues with this engine layout, and there's an unambiguous market study that shows we can build these cars and make a profit, we'll consider it."

Freude am Fahren
May 24th, 2016, 08:12 AM
I think the world will be ready when all but enthusiast machines switch to electric power and ICE's can be as polluting as they want because they are such a small factor. Of course that will probably mean that wells will be abandoned and refineries shut down and gas will become like $30/gallon.

novicius
May 24th, 2016, 09:37 AM
Eh, what do you want? There's no way a new RX-7 is going to be cheaper than buying a driver's FD RX-7. That's gonna be a $60K USD MSRP, minimum.

You can find a decent driver with a rebuilt turbocharged 13B for far less. Pull the trigger, keep it for nice days, invest in rubber hoses, rub it with a diaper, profit! :D

thesameguy
May 24th, 2016, 11:56 AM
Like.

novicius
May 25th, 2016, 03:55 AM
'93 RX-7, 56K miles, $25K USD. (http://www.rx7club.com/3rd-generation-rx-7-1993-2002-vehicles-107/1993-rx-7-pure-stock-red-1100088/)

Kchrpm
May 25th, 2016, 05:24 AM
The loading image at their site is quite appropriate. Price seems high to me personally, but for enthusiasts of that model I'm sure the scale is much different.

novicius
May 25th, 2016, 05:36 AM
Yep the prices are climbing but then it is an enthusiast forum, not Craigslist.

Hey it would be cheaper if it was yellow. ;) #askmehowiknow

thesameguy
May 25th, 2016, 08:36 AM
Price seems about right to me. Really shitty ones will get low teens, pretty nice ones high teens - reliably. $25k for a nice one with low miles isn't far off the mark, if not right on it. If I was into cars that cost more than five grand, I would talk myself into it. :lol:

novicius
May 25th, 2016, 08:45 AM
Yep if I *really* wanted an NSX/Supra/RX-7/300ZX TT, I would make it happen.

The cars are out there and the MSRP of new enthusiasts' cars are at such ridiculous heights as to make it seem like found money out there. :up:

IMOA
May 25th, 2016, 02:23 PM
Yep. Thats a car for a genuine rotary enthusiast who is probably looking for their forever car. Spending an extra 5ishk to get a car that is properly original and has been very well cared for is pocket change, especially when you might be looking to keep it for 20 or 30 years.

KillerB
August 16th, 2016, 03:32 PM
Especially considering the price got lowered to $20k.

As soon as I've got somewhere to store it, an old school rotary, FC Turbo II or FD will be my next toy.

KillerB
August 24th, 2016, 07:05 PM
Mazda's board of directors approves design and production of Mazda RX-9. Supposedly. (http://www.automobilemag.com/news/mazda-board-directors-formally-approve-rotary-powered-rx-9-2020-report/)

thesameguy
August 24th, 2016, 07:16 PM
Interesting... I wonder if the 9 designation indicates a yet-boatier car, or just that it's a next generation car...

KillerB
August 24th, 2016, 09:41 PM
The rumored specs are 400 hp and 2,860 lbs. So basically Cayman RS numbers, if they're to be believed.

FWIW, Mazda has always used the numbers in sequence, with only the RX-7 getting three generations. The RX-3 was smaller than the RX-2, and the RX-7 was smaller than the RX-2 and RX-4 and just the tiniest bit smaller than the RX-3.

thesameguy
August 24th, 2016, 09:52 PM
Yeah, my comment was just in reference to the 7 - they stuck with that for a long time. Then the 8 2.5 door, which was bigger than the 7, followed by rumors of another 2-door called the 7, followed by an announcement of the 9. Hard to predict whether the 7 branding was worth reviving as the strict sports car and letting larger rotaries get larger numbers, or whether they would resume the sequential numbering. Going to 9 certainly frees them from having to play the name game like Corvettes (THEY ARE FR V8s WITH FLIP UP HEADLIGHTS ALWAYS!) but does potentially require extra work with the branding...

TheBenior
August 24th, 2016, 11:23 PM
I have owned a Mazda from each of the last 3 decades.

I'm believe that a new rotary powered Mazda isn't too good to be true when it's in dealer showrooms.

balki
August 26th, 2016, 05:07 AM
What's the issue with rotaries, other than they guzzle gas like they're V8's and burn through oil to keep the apex seals lubed?
looking at RX-8's (seems like 2004 was the only year that sold well

21Kid
August 26th, 2016, 05:42 AM
FWIW, those are the issues. Otherwise they produce good power for their weight.

novicius
August 26th, 2016, 05:50 AM
They also provide a unique driving experience and the RX-8 in particular is a sublime handler with room for 2 adults and 2 pets. ;)

Kchrpm
August 26th, 2016, 06:14 AM
I am presuming that, considering the fuel mileage regs are just getting tighter and tighter, that they've come up with some solution for the fuel guzzling.

Or that it will be purposefully priced so that it's a very rare vehicle and has little effect on the corporate average.

TheBenior
August 26th, 2016, 01:05 PM
Even if fuel economy is mediocre, it shouldn't have too big of an effect on Mazda's CAFE. Sports coupes sell in pretty low numbers these days compared to decades ago, and the rest of Mazda's lineup has generally best in class fuel economy or close to it.

Kchrpm
August 26th, 2016, 01:16 PM
That's what I mean, this is going to be a very high priced car to cover the development costs because they can't really attempt to make it a popular model. I will admit to not knowing how that all works, though.

thesameguy
August 26th, 2016, 02:53 PM
They don't really guzzle gas - they use gas a little in excess of other engines with similar outputs. People always think "tiny 1.3l 13B-MSP should get like 80mpg" but forget it makes 240hp. It doesn't get much worse economy than other, contemporary 240hp motors. The RX8 was 16/23 and the 350Z was 17/24. Meh.

Oil consumption also is not really a concern. The MSP was spec'd to use up to one quart per 1000 miles, but could be as little as one quart every 3000 miles depending on use. That's the same spec that Audi and BMW both publish for most of their modern motors. With a rotary you might add a quart between oil changes, but you're gonna do the same thing on every Audi four cylinder made since the '90s, so.... MEH!

The major issue with rotaries is that they run so hot internally that NOx emissions are VERY hard to control. All the emissions components and tricks that work on boingers don't work so good when your EGTs are over 1800 degrees. Scorching hot EGT on a boinger might be 1300 or 1400 degrees. That's like a rotary coating downhill. MSP tech was not adequate to address future emissions requirements. Not sure how the future motor will, but it'll be interesting!

novicius
August 26th, 2016, 03:21 PM
Cooling ducts on all-tungsten cats? :lol:

thesameguy
August 26th, 2016, 04:15 PM
Seriously. They already have special spark plugs to withstand the heat, and they still don't last very long!

TheBenior
August 26th, 2016, 04:18 PM
The RX-8 got worse fuel economy on top of making less power.

The 350Z isn't a good argument, as it wasn't rated lower than 287 hp. RX-8s were rated at 237 hp once they measured less optimistically. As somebody who has added 50 hp to their car, that is not an insignificant sum.

I understand that rotary engines use more oil by design, but BMW and Audi are not good company to be in if arguing that oil consumption isn't an impediment to engine longevity.

Godson
August 26th, 2016, 04:19 PM
Ford's spec is 1qt/1k miles.

Kchrpm
August 26th, 2016, 05:01 PM
The 350Z was also a much heavier car, around 3600 lbs, vs around 3100 lbs in the RX8.

About 20% less power and 15% less weight, but still worse mileage? That seems like a significant difference in efficiency.

balki
August 26th, 2016, 05:38 PM
They don't really guzzle gas - they use gas a little in excess of other engines with similar outputs. People always think "tiny 1.3l 13B-MSP should get like 80mpg" but forget it makes 240hp. It doesn't get much worse economy than other, contemporary 240hp motors. The RX8 was 16/23 and the 350Z was 17/24. Meh...
16/22 for the manual (the auto made less than 200hp)
The 350Z had more power, a lot more torque and about 100kg heavier
18/25 for the S2000, more similar weight & torque, and I'm inclined to believe that the Honda would exceed those numbers while the 8 wouldn't.

regardless, it's oil consumption that worries me (how many average Joe's put in a quart between oil changes? Especially the folks who leased the car)
That and the rotary having gone through a dozen NE winters (I think I just talked myself out of the RX-8 and into a 6spd G35 sedan)

Godson
August 26th, 2016, 06:13 PM
The s2000 could clip 30's on the highway. Easily. #Experience

KillerB
August 26th, 2016, 08:29 PM
They're *designed* to burn oil. Oil has to be injected into the combustion chamber to get lubrication to the seals. This is different from an engine that burns oil because it gets past the rings unintentionally.

I've said for years that Mazda should stop having oil be injected from the sump, and instead inject it from a separate tank, and make the car not start if the tank is run dry. Call it "apex seal fluid" rather than oil and people will stop having a whine about it burning oil.

Rotaries don't mind cold weather.

thesameguy
August 26th, 2016, 09:08 PM
The 350Z isn't a good argument, as it wasn't rated lower than 287 hp. RX-8s were rated at 237 hp once they measured less optimistically. As somebody who has added 50 hp to their car, that is not an insignificant sum.

I was using the 350Z as an example, because they were competitors at the time. They were pretty closely matched - low 6 second 0-60s and near 15s 1/4 miles. The Z was faster and did get better fuel economy doing it, but the difference wasn't dramatic. For whatever the difference in performance was, the 8 had a 250lb lighter engine and room for two more passengers as a result while *still* weighing less. You can nitpick the details all you want, but the packages were comparable. Rotaries aren't at some horrific defecit. They have pros and cons and compare fairly. You could levy most of the same complaints about boxers.


I understand that rotary engines use more oil by design, but BMW and Audi are not good company to be in if arguing that oil consumption isn't an impediment to engine longevity.

I don't understand what you mean by this, but BMW and Audi were just examples. Would you prefer Ford, GM, or Subaru? All their specs are similar.

http://www.torquenews.com/1084/subaru-settles-oil-consumption-lawsuit

The point being added oil between changes is remarkably common, and in the case of the rotary it's not by accident, it's by design. It's not a factor in engine longevity.


16/22 for the manual (the auto made less than 200hp)
The 350Z had more power, a lot more torque and about 100kg heavier
18/25 for the S2000, more similar weight & torque, and I'm inclined to believe that the Honda would exceed those numbers while the 8 wouldn't.

Look at the dynos. Rotaries don't make torque like boingers. The Z might have more peak torque, but it doesn't have more torque everywhere. One of the great things about rotaries is very flat power delivery. It's fucking magical to drive.

The auto RX8 made less power because the Aisin box couldn't run to the engine's redline. Lower redline, less power. There are mountains of cars where compromises are made for automatics, whether it be less power or less torque or something else. Most cars with 9000rpm redlines aren't offered in an automatic.


The s2000 could clip 30's on the highway. Easily. #Experience

We got 28 in my friend's RX8 to Infineon. He said that's about what he got when he brought it home from Tennessee. :shrug:


I've said for years that Mazda should stop having oil be injected from the sump, and instead inject it from a separate tank, and make the car not start if the tank is run dry. Call it "apex seal fluid" rather than oil and people will stop having a whine about it burning oil.

With things like Def these days that might work. It might be something people would be willing to do. My aforementioned friend just put a very expensive Mazdatrix motor in his RX8 and it has an aftermarket tank for just that. You fill it full of 2-stroke oil. Kinda neat. He is breaking it in now, but I am going to drive the shit out of it when I get back.

KillerB
August 26th, 2016, 09:55 PM
Yeah, when I was considering having a crazy N/A 13B built for my last FC (this was around 2007 or so, before I bought my FMII Miata), I was going to go premix, but at the time they didn't have the tank setup yet - you still actually mixed the two-stroke oil in with the fuel. In the end, I wish I'd gone that route rather than buying that Miata, as decent FC chassis are so hard to find now. Then again, I could have never taken that car with a bridgetported 13B built for 10,500 RPM (no shit, that's what we were looking at) to California, regardless.

While I think I really want an FC Turbo II or FD, I have to admit it'd be a lot of fun getting a pre-'76 Mazda that I could do anything I wanted to. BRAP BRAP BRAP :D

TheBenior
August 26th, 2016, 10:15 PM
I was using the 350Z as an example, because they were competitors at the time. They were pretty closely matched - low 6 second 0-60s and near 15s 1/4 miles. The Z was faster and did get better fuel economy doing it, but the difference wasn't dramatic. For whatever the difference in performance was, the 8 had a 250lb lighter engine and room for two more passengers as a result while *still* weighing less. You can nitpick the details all you want, but the packages were comparable. Rotaries aren't at some horrific defecit. They have pros and cons and compare fairly. You could levy most of the same complaints about boxers.
The engine weight difference is around 50lbs, from what I've read. The rest is probably from using a platform designed to have a luxury SUV built on it. In spite of that weight, they really aren't that closely matched in acceleration after 60 mph. On a good day, an RX-8 is running high 14s with low 90 mph trap speeds. On a good day, a 350z is breaking into the 13s with trap speeds 100 mph or higher.


I don't understand what you mean by this, but BMW and Audi were just examples. Would you prefer Ford, GM, or Subaru? All their specs are similar.

http://www.torquenews.com/1084/subaru-settles-oil-consumption-lawsuit

The point being added oil between changes is remarkably common, and in the case of the rotary it's not by accident, it's by design. It's not a factor in engine longevity.
I thought it was ironic because BMW and Audi have had some of the most commonly replaced engines according to the UK's biggest third party warranty provider. Subaru was one of the top 3 brands cited by Consumer Reports for oil consumption (the other two were BMW and Audi). In any case, it doesn't really matter, since it's a rotary thing, not a 'German car made to last through the CPO period' thing.


Look at the dynos. Rotaries don't make torque like boingers. The Z might have more peak torque, but it doesn't have more torque everywhere. One of the great things about rotaries is very flat power delivery. It's fucking magical to drive.
I won't argue that. My old roommate had one, and it drove kind of like a big Miata with a really smooth engine.


We got 28 in my friend's RX8 to Infineon. He said that's about what he got when he brought it home from Tennessee. :shrug:
My old roommate never got better than 22 mpg highway with his. :/

novicius
August 27th, 2016, 04:20 AM
The auto RX8 made less power because the Aisin box couldn't run to the engine's redline. Lower redline, less power. There are mountains of cars where compromises are made for automatics, whether it be less power or less torque or something else. Most cars with 9000rpm redlines aren't offered in an automatic.
Data point: '03-'04 Mustang Mach 1's had programmed fuel cutoffs @ 5800 RPM in the automatic 4R75W cars only. The manual cars can wind out to 6,800 RPM.

Speed kills. :D

balki
August 27th, 2016, 04:58 AM
...I've said for years that Mazda should stop having oil be injected from the sump, and instead inject it from a separate tank, and make the car not start if the tank is run dry. Call it "apex seal fluid" rather than oil and people will stop having a whine about it burning oil.

Rotaries don't mind cold weather.
Point 1 sounds borderline genius, why was it never done from the factory?
Point 2: I constantly do short trips. A bad Jan/Feb may not see the car reach full operating temp. I hear that's even worse in rotaries than it is in a 4-stroke piston engine

Kchrpm
December 6th, 2016, 06:49 AM
http://www.autonews.com/article/20161205/OEM08/312059978/mazda-s-kogai-new-product-pricing-drive-move-upmarket via http://jalopnik.com/mazda-ceo-says-new-rotary-sports-car-totally-isnt-happe-1789708685

Mazda's CEO on rotaries


Mazda often talks about reviving the rotary engine as a range extender for a hybrid vehicle. Does that mean Mazda has abandoned plans to use it as the main traction powerplant?

We ended production of the RX-8 with the rotary engine. But if we were to restart production of the rotary engine again, we need to make sure it wouldn't be just short-lived. We need it to meet future emissions regulations. We are still conducting our r&d activity to overcome any issues we have with emissions and fuel efficiency.

Which would come first, a range-extender rotary or a main traction rotary, like in the RX-8?

Considering regulations such as the zero-emissions vehicle mandate, electrification is a technology we need to introduce in the near future. The range extender would be the first.

Could Mazda ever create an RX-8 sports car successor with a range extender?

I think that as a sports car option, the MX-5 1.5-liter or 2.0-liter conventional engine, with its power and acceleration, might be a more exhilarating experience.

No plans for a larger sports car entry?

No.

novicius
December 6th, 2016, 07:10 AM
It would be more interesting to read about the engineering struggles behind fielding a new mass produced rotary (or even rotary hybrid) than the corporatespeak that results from it.

balki
December 6th, 2016, 07:20 AM
With emissions regulations getting stricter I'm surprised the Wankel rumors continued for so long

KillerB
December 6th, 2016, 10:19 PM
Interesting that Mazda USA was conducting a survey of FD owners at Sevenstock asking specifically about a range-topping sports car. I was asked by one of the engineers I spoke to what the price range I would consider for a theoretical higher-end sports car from Mazda - I said $50k-70k is what I'd be interested in, of the ranges he offered me.

Maybe Mazda USA is trying to make the case to Mazda Japan.

KillerB
December 6th, 2016, 10:21 PM
PS - Jalopnik's quote is incomplete. According to the Auto News article:


No plans for a larger sports car entry with a range extender?

No.

drew
December 7th, 2016, 10:01 AM
With emissions regulations getting stricter I'm surprised the Wankel rumors continued for so long

I don't think you'll have to worry about that much past Jan 20 2017. Regulation is going to be a thing of the past.

Godson
December 7th, 2016, 11:11 AM
That means the rotary returns. Sweet baby Jesus. Just in time for the nuclear Holocaust

balki
December 7th, 2016, 11:24 AM
lol? I think
Doubt they could justify selling a "1.3L 2-cylinder" to just the US (73,379 in the US over 10+ years, another 6,641 in Canada out of 192,094)

Freude am Fahren
December 7th, 2016, 01:15 PM
Yeah, even if Trump gets rid all emissions regulations, there's still the rest of the world. The best we'll get is maybe a return (again) of the Viper. lol