GB's Z31 Plaything, Ver. 1.1

[GB]

Ver. 1.0: http://gtxfrefuge.freeforums.org/gb-s-z31-plaything-t1509.html

718
719


720

[GB]

http://i.imgur.com/bOhu5J0.jpg

[thesameguy]

ROFL!

[Godson]

EPIC!

[CudaMan]

Mixing it up with some good company there. :)

[GB]

The car now corners as well as most anything. It just doesn't have a ton of oomph. Fun, fun, fun, though.

[thesameguy]

Ghettocharge it!

http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/18rizq9c9doyojpg.jpg

[GB]

Sure seems faster from the driver's seat. :(



http://youtu.be/J9l_i26jRao

[Random]

Looks fun! (and bumpy)

[GB]

Why do I torture myself continuing to look at these things?

http://albany.craigslist.org/cto/4593198938.html

Motivated... could probably get it for 4k, then have it shipped with all the spares in the back.

Then again, if I just dump 5k into the Z, and have someone FINISH the damned thing for me.... *sigh*

[samoht]

If I wanted a trackday car, I wouldn't choose one with the entire longitudinal engine slung in front of the front wheels.

[thesameguy]

Yeah, as much as I like Coupe GTs, I wouldn't choose one for a trackday car either.

[Random]

Get a 4000 quattro over a Coupe GT for track work. Balance still isn't great, but at least you can power all the wheels.

And swap in a 20V turbo. :hard: ;)

[Godson]

Fuck Audi.


Stick with a true sports car.

[Random]

2+2 != true sports car.

Suck it!

:D

[Godson]

Z have been FMR layout for quite some time haven't they?

[GB]

The GT, you have to admit, makes a fabulous-looking racecar.

But, no, it makes no sense for me to opine after a FWD, 126hp ITB car that sits 1200 miles away. For some reason I just can't help but complicate my own thoughts with non-sensical things.

I will continue fiddling with my future ITS car.

[GB]

http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0166/4148/products/zee_detail_grande.png?v=1410809529

[Kchrpm]

Whoa. Dad might love that...

[GB]

929

A few friends and I had a fun Track Weekend at Roebling Road last weekend (11/22-23)
The car ran well and handled well, although I still can't seem to get a good brake pedal anymore. I have replaced the entire brake system except the hard lines, and I continue to have to pump the pedal once or twice to get any firmness. It's a complete mystery to me and everyone I've tried to elicit advice from. I'm desperate enough to buy a 3rd master cylinder and try again. :(

[thesameguy]

Nice Saab!

You sure you just have air in the lines?

[Leon]

Worn wheel bearing causing brake pads to be knocked back?

[GB]

Wheel bearings are all new and tightened to spec. No play.

I've gone through GALLONS of brake fluid ensuring there is no air... several, several times.

[Godson]

Is this car rear disc brake?

[GB]

Yes.

[Godson]

Are you pumping the pedal when you bleed?

You should not be due to cavitating the possible air in the line.

When you have pressure, press and hold down the brake pedal, does it stay firm? If not, you have a bad mc.

Also, when you bleed, are you getting any air bubbles at all? If not you likely have an internal seal leaking fluid.

[GB]

Are you asking if I have a pressure bleeder? No, I don't. But I know how to bleed brakes without cavitating the lines.

Pedal stays firm after I get a pedal.

[Random]

Are you asking if I have a pressure bleeder? No, I don't. But I know how to bleed brakes without cavitating the lines.

Pedal stays firm after I get a pedal.

Sounds like classic pad knockback to me. Maybe do the NASCAR-style-brake-tap-before-the brake-zone?

[thesameguy]

Definitely sounds like that. Maybe it's just an ill-formed pad or stuck caliper or insufficient lube on moving parts?

[GB]

All new wheel bearings with no play. Gone through 3 sets of pads, 2 sets of rotors, all new lines, 4 new calipers, 2 master cylinders, gallons of brake fluid. No change.

[Random]

The Z31 brakes may just be prone to it.

[GB]

They were great after my first rotor/pad/bleed cycle in 2013. The car sat for a bit in the off-season, and suddenly the brakes had this problem. Can't get it back to normal.

[thesameguy]

And you're sure you've got appropriate amounts of lube on all the brake sliding parts? Is it possible your car is cursed?

[GB]

I am lubed and ready!

The car isn't cursed... I am.

And I'm not trying to argue with any of these suggestions.... it's just that I've silently been battling it all year and have gone through all these ideas more than once. I'm just frustrated and was hoping for a new idea. But I appreciate everyone's input, even if I've heard it before. :toast:

[Godson]

Cool!

[thesameguy]

And I'm not trying to argue with any of these suggestions.... it's just that I've silently been battling it all year and have gone through all these ideas more than once. I'm just frustrated and was hoping for a new idea. But I appreciate everyone's input, even if I've heard it before. :toast:

BTDT. Struggled with Stoopid Problems on cars and just kept asking people hoping someone, someday, would suggest that one thing I missed.

I can't think of what would change during nonuse and then survive a replacement, though. Is it possible you have an issue with something like the booster? Maybe it's having an internal issue and a lack of vacuum/assist gives the sensation of a soft pedal. Stab the brakes, something slips back into place and the next use feels right - until it starts losing vacuum again.

[GB]

Other than the hardlines, the booster is the only thing that hasn't been changed. I've not gone there because of the lazy pedal... not a too-hard pedal. But I think I may do it, "just because".

Could it have anything to do with actual pedal adjustment? Could it be caused by the rod not pushing out into the MC far enough? :?

[thesameguy]

That I'm not sure about, but intellectually I think it'd be the opposite - the rod over-engaging and keeping the brakes just a little engaged all the time either creating excess heat or bleeding off fluid. But that doesn't really fit into an explanation for something that would change over a period of disuse.

[GB]

Just leaving this here for no particular reason.

http://orlando.craigslist.org/cto/4771454505.html

http://images.craigslist.org/01010_2qu83jB5OOb_600x450.jpg

[thesameguy]

There is nothing that can't be solved on a Fiero. Nothing.

[GB]

1148

I hate hate hate cleaning and organizing. And this task is nothing but cleaning things out, and organizing what's left.

[thesameguy]

Whoa. Where is that going?

[Random]

ITS? ;)

[GB]

ITS is the goal. I don't know if I'll ever get there... might just remain a track day toy.

[thesameguy]

OIC! I know how do that in an hour or two in a Saab, but I think a Z is going to be more complex. I would absolutely write down the systems that you need so you don't accidentally dump something. Like your windshield wipers. Which is a big PITA to fix.

[GB]

http://images.sequart.org/images/comic-book-guy-shrugs.jpg

Slowest. Car. Ever.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7112FQy51o

[thesameguy]

Turbo.

[Random]

Add lightness!

(or a turbo, whatever floats your boat.)

[CudaMan]

I dunno about that engine, but I/H/E and a proper dyno tune woke up my '94 nicely.

[thesameguy]

Hell, do an engine swap. I seem to recall it is not complex to put a Chevy in there. Or, be awesome and put a Saab 2.3t in it!

http://jalopnik.com/5595691/nearly-the-engine-swap-of-the-day-saab-turbo-b-into-nissan-300zx

The bell housing adapter is not a one-off, it's available - about five bills IIRC. :D

[novicius]

Slowest. Car. Ever.
Well, it IS Florida. :lol: Even the racetracks require big power to be entertaining.

If you were to take that car down the Tail of the Dragon at Deals Gap or through the Ozarks (or some other hilly, twisty country), it wouldn't take much power to entertain. That said, if you still like the car then you've got some wrenching to do. Otherwise sell (what's left of) it and buy a Fox-body V8 Mustang to wrench on instead. :D #griggsracingproducts

[GB]

http://gtxforums.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=1166&stc=1

[GB]

April 2013: 3084lbs
April 2014: 2980lbs
April 2015: 2920lbs

[thesameguy]

There's gotta be another 500lbs available to you. If we can get a c900 down to 2100lbs, you can get a Z down to 2500! Sound deadening, seat supports, door components, any lead ballast you're carrying, etc.

[GB]

Oh, there's plenty of weight yet to come out. Still has both front stock seats and some carpeting.


On a related note:

http://orlando.craigslist.org/cto/4972870518.html

http://images.craigslist.org/00y0y_1aEx8x9Za87_600x450.jpg

[thesameguy]

Whoa... I am incapable of doing the math right now, but that might be a solid parts investment. No. I don't think the math works.

[GB]

http://orlando.craigslist.org/cto/4989906350.html

[thesameguy]

Hmm. Sounds interesting, but also a lot of work that is going to generate a lot of trash. It really sounds like the take is:

o a couple sets of wheels, one with good tires
o a hybrid turbo of unknown origin
o 1987 turbo z brakes
o sways bars with poly bushings
o methanol injection kit
o Innovate A/F Meter
o wheels spacers
o MSD COIL
o ambiguous "MANY more parts for this price" (that sounds to be like "many more parts you don't need for a race car")

I'm only seeing about $1400 (new value) in parts there, and then you'd have a mountain of metal and plastic. That you'd either recoup from CL or sell to a scrapyard.

If you're into mechanical work and want to do an engine swap or are interested in maybe abandoning your non-turbo for a turbo, this might be a great place to go... install a turbo, gut the white car, go faster. Not knowing anything about anything, I sure feel like you will or have already outgrown a 180hp (hey, it's 30 years old :) ) 2900lb car and boosted cars do give a fair amount of growing room.

OTOH, you may very well be at a point where you really need to ask how far you're going to take the Z31 - if you love the car then by all means let it grow with you. OTOH, if you just want a reasonable RWD track car maybe go ahead and make the jump to an E36 or... man, I dunno. I think anything else I'd throw out there would sound ridiculous... a Mustang or Camaro or Corvette. I'm just thinking of relatively inexpensive cars with reasonable P:W and strong aftermarket support to help shore it up. It's a real PITA to be a driver when every effing thing involves fabrication. That what's finally drove my Saab-owning friend to back-burner his monster '86 SPG build and buy an RX8. If you want to go faster in a Saab, start up the CNC and the welder. If you want to go faster in the RX8, call someone and give them a credit card number. ;) Early RX8s are pretty cheap, actually. I'd put that on the list too!

(Speaking of, don't underestimate your SPG at the track! It took Damien a long time to outgrow his. 250+hp is not tough to reach, and without wrecking anything - mostly a full interior - an SPG can get down to 2800-2900lbs. With sticky tires and good suspension it'll keep up with a surprising number of cars. :) It's power to weight is Not Bad. )

[GB]

I sure feel like you will or have already outgrown a 180hp (hey, it's 30 years old :) ) 2900lb car and boosted cars do give a fair amount of growing room.
180?? I wish I had 180!
Motor only came with 160 brand new, and 140,000 miles later with multiple exhaust manifold leaks, it feels more like 130!

I think my direction is this: I'm going to put in a turbo motor and boost the shit out of it as a fun track-day toy. AT THE SAME TIME, I want to continue to prep the rest of the car for SCCA Club Racing. Meanwhile, I'll be building a nice, solid SCCA-legal NA motor. (Turbo Z31 not classified for Club Racing) When I finally have all my required SCCA race and safety gear, I can re-insert the rebuilt NA motor (now running strong) and go to Driver's School.

So my car plus these 2 would give me 3 block, 2 sets of heads, 2 transmissions, 3 diffs, 16 wheels, brake parts, steering racks, body panels, gauges, etc., etc. Sounds like some of the stuff I need if I'm gonna actually do it. I can try to sell off what I don't need to maybe get a few hundred back (lots of glass!).

[GB]

These guys are my inspiration: https://www.facebook.com/AlienForceRacing

[thesameguy]

Disclaimer: I don't know what I am talking about. Just inserting what I think into you situation. :)

That said, I *personally* wouldn't be too hesitant about putting turbo stuff on an NA motor, and building a hybrid. At 9:1 CR you've got adequate head room for boost of probably up to 12-15psi with a decent intercooler, and with that meth kit you can probably go a little higher. The Japanese were VERY conservative with turbo motors in the '80s, or maybe they were trying to deliver linear power by doing a high CR/low boost combo. As a point of reference, stock boost on the SPG in 13psi, and that's on 9:1. If Saab could do that in 1985, you can definitely do it in 2015. Your boost will be limited by engine construction - how much power the crank, rods, and pistons can handle without failing - but *worst* case the stock 7psi is not going to hurt an intercooled, meth (or water) injected motor, no way no how. That would save MOUNTAINS of time & effort adding power to your car. Maybe ask around, but from a technical standpoint there just can't be any real problem there.

Secondly, building out NA motors is very expensive. The only ways to make power are displacement, compression ratio and engine speed. You can only punch out an engine so far, pump gas has its limits, and pistons can only travel so fast. I would fully expect to pay three to five grand to do a moderate engine build (maybe a little block work, good bottom end, some head work) and then you still have tuning costs. It gets ugly fast unless you have a lot of skills & tools. It really comes down to how much you like the Z31. If you love it, who the hell cares? Damien put $5500 into that monster SPG, and I've got a $3000 engine on a stand waiting to go into the XR4Ti, and Saabs and Merkurs are super dumb cars. Not saying don't build a sweet Z31, only know that for not much more than a cool engine you're onto a whole other newer/faster/better car. I think that's where Cuda got with the Z32, but I may have completely misread that situation. :)

The only other thing I can think of worth mentioning is engine management. I have no idea how the Z31 is wired, but I do remember reading some of the wiring diagrams you posted. Swapping between NA and T might include computers, injectors, air measurement, probably fuel system. On a Saab that is totally plug & play, no worries. On some cars, that is an enormous mountain of work - doing that on the 2002 Jetta I had would have required rewiring the entire dash! You might be able to reprogram the NA computer to fuel a turbo motor or you might have start replacing some or all of the fuel injection system. I'd definitely look into what's involved there - it will also affect how you run a built NA motor. If it's just new maps or a piggyback system, or better yet you want to run 3rd party engine management - no worries. :)

[thesameguy]

Since I'm stuck at work doing server updates, I have time. Very quick internet research suggests "turbo your NA" is the right answer. You need the VG30ET parts including the engine crossmember (something about an ear) but that you can easily run up to 12psi on the stock VG30ET computer & hardware. That is exactly what I would do. Use that meth injection kit for water or a water/meth mix and add an intercooler and you should be set for a very solid 250hp. Getting those parts cars means you have all the parts you need, which is a lot easier than junkyard diving for 30 year old Nissan turbo parts! :) You'd also probably want to use that hybrid turbo, as I guess the stock turbo on a Z31 is a puny little T25, which would be way out of its envelope for the power that setup would be able to make.

Edit: I guess people make relocation exhaust manifolds that would allow you to leave your crossmember as-is and physically locate the turbo elsewhere. Since you don't need AC (or probably a mess of other engine bay clutter), they might be worth looking into. A good tubular manifold that also makes the turbo installation easier = WIN.

[GB]

Right... the white car in that CL ad is an NA that has been turbo'd (Check the "NAT" designation he gives it). All the stuff I need is there. Straight swap of a motor and trans with the harness. Once the motors are out of the cars, the crossmember swap is a pretty easy task. (says the guy who has never done a motor swap)

As far as building a "monster" NA motor, I'm limited as to what I can do per SCCA IT rules. I'm not looking to build a "monster". Just build a nice, fresh, solid motor. And I KNOW that it won't be cheap... if it was cheap I'd be racing already! I still need a safety cage, racing seat, safety harness, fire suppression, racing suit and shoes, and a HANS! (Hence the selling of my SPG) I've already added these costs in my head, and it makes me dizzy. And there are probably many things that I'm not even counting! (Tow vehicle, trailer, etc.)

And you never know... it may turn out that the turbo'd Z31 TRACK DAY setup feeds my addiction enough that I don't go racing, saving me zillions of dollars. Human nature suggests that I'll never be satisfied, though. Ever. :assclown:

[thesameguy]

Ah, I didn't get the NAT thing. "NA" is typically used for naturally aspirated. I've never seen NAT used that way (an abbreviation in all upper case, WTF?)

Motor swaps are typically not that bad on older cars. being RWD makes it easy. Being a car that you don't necessarily have to watch the paint or worry about things like AC makes it that much easier. It's good practice, too, because someday you'll blow up that motor no matter what and have to do it again. :lol: Go slow, make mental notes, buy plastic storage containers to keep fasteners together, label things. It's not difficult, just lots of details. Might as well invest in a Harbor Freight engine crane while you're at it. :D

Still, any particular reason why you want to actually swap a motor rather than just bolt turbo stuff onto your existing mill? I mean, if you've got no long term commitment there anyway why go to the trouble?

Have you considered getting involved with a Lemons or Chumpcar team? It's goofy, but it's a significant part of the experience and - seriously - there is *no* cheaper track time than Lemons. It's a great way to figure out if you really want racing, or if track days will fulfill your need. Your need for speed.

[GB]

Engine crane and engine stand are 2 more things I know I'll need but forgot to add to my list above!

Motor swap is actually for easier access. According to my readings, it's easier to swap the motor than to convert one piece by piece while it's in the car.

Of course I'll need to compression test them both to see which one is in better shape to be boosted and which one needs a rebuild more.

[thesameguy]

Can't argue that - working on an engine out of the car is always much, much nicer. And you get to see how everything is doing and shore things up as required - bushings, mounts, hoses, etc. Engine stands are nice (and not expensive) but not absolutely necessary - you can do just about everything you might want to on the ground or still hanging from the crane. If you do go ahead and get a stand, get a super heavy duty one. Don't mess around with good enough stands - they tend to fall over, sag, or make it impossible to rotate the engine while it's mounted. Very annoying. You may as well add a pressure washer (at least a rental) to your shopping list. Nothing is as gratifying and helpful as washing out 30 years of crap from an engine bay. :D

Edit: I would consider adding an oil cooler (in addition to the intercooler) while you have the engine out. It will be very helpful for the boosted motor, and certainly won't hurt a NAT. A sandwich adapter, a few feet of AN hose, and a good core will add capacity and help the oil and the engine survive longer. On a street car you'd want a thermostatically controlled one, but on a track car there ain't no reason to have a thermostat. :) You might also figure out a good way to implement brake cooling ducts while you can see the whole picture. Very helpful.

[GB]

I'm expecting a letter from my HOA any minute now.

http://gtxforums.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=1283&stc=1

[thesameguy]

http://www.harborfreight.com/19-ft-x-29-ft-4-in-blue-all-purposeweather-resistant-tarp-69189.html

:up:

[Random]

https://scontent.fsnc1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13315671_10154526702974026_3130391219591919397_n.j pg?oh=5320d81db79136499e6a7ca9effe2c4b&oe=57D3369D

Steve Vai owns a 300ZX. Just thought I should share.

[thesameguy]

:up:

[GB]

Jesus, that's hideous.

[Random]

:lol:

Needs better wheels. Maybe some matching green Sparcos? :D

[GB]

2 1986 300ZX's

​FOR SALE

[GB]

Only *I* could write a CL ad that doesn't even generate the interest of scammers.

https://daytona.craigslist.org/cto/6193839213.html

[novicius]

Have you had any complaints from the neighbors? :lol:

[Godson]

ill give you tree fiddy

[Random]

Mind if I post the ad to a LeMons FB group?

[GB]

Have you had any complaints from the neighbors? :lol:
Not out loud, to me directly. ;) The white one stays covered, which helps a little.

[GB]

Mind if I post the ad to a LeMons FB group?
Please do!

[Random]

:up:

[GB]

Make sure they know I am MO.

TI.

VATED.

[Drachen596]

I will say i wish i had some way to buy those. I miss my 85 NA 300Z. bad head gasket and all.

[GB]

A nibble from the Lemons group!

[thesameguy]

GET THEM DOLLARS!!!

[GB]

I don't even care about the money anymore. I just want them gone.

[novicius]

Salvage yard?

[GB]

I'm not quite to that point yet. I really want to see someone take on the "project".

[GB]

Updated CL listing. Please re-post in any forums / groups / pages you wish. Thanks guys!

https://daytona.craigslist.org/cto/6193839213.html

[GB]

The entirety of one of a message I received:


it says one car runs and drives just has no insides

I hate people.

[GB]

http://gtxforums.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=2487&stc=1

http://gtxforums.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=2488&stc=1

http://gtxforums.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=2489&stc=1

[Random]

*wave*

LeMons?

[novicius]

Local Boys Club/Rawhide Ranch donation?

[GB]

This guy bought them:

http://gtxforums.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=2491&stc=1

[Random]

Nice!:cool:

[CudaMan]

Match made in heaven. :up:

[Godson]

Badass