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Thread: Gun control

  1. #1401
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godson View Post
    Again. You guys ignore a key point about the US military.

    I'm done trying to explain it.

  2. #1402
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    and you guys are ignoring that women weren't allowed to have firearms, blacks weren't considered men, ...
    ...if it was written 100 years later they would have excluded Catholics as well, another 100 years after that Muslims wouldn't have been allowed either.

    morale of the story is that it's a right protected by law and the Supreme Court has upheld and clarified the parts that people are calling BS on.
    Fin

  3. #1403
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    For a nation that not only lasted few hundred years, but also became a global superpower, you gave the founders far too little credit. You also assumed that they didn't know the existence of Catholics and Muslims...

    Also, during a period when slavery is commonplace globally, inserting the ideal that all men are created equal was an amazing step already.

  4. #1404
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    While very progressive back then that mindset is not acceptable any longer. It's as much (if not more) the 1% looking out for themselves and their future generations as much as it is trying to create equality.
    Still think the US is the fairest and least dysfunctional major nation.

  5. #1405
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    This is perhaps topic of another thread, but equality cannot and should NOT be created. Yes, we are created equal, and we should make available equal opportunity for all, but we ought not to artificially create equal outcome. That'd be a stupid thing to try to push for. Think certain professional athletes for example. There are just way too many black dudes. Must we force NFL and NBA to hire more asian athletes to properly reflect general population? Likewise why can't women compete directly with men? Why the separate leagues? What, women not good enough for men or something? Why discriminate against them and not allow them to play in the real leagues?

    Anyway, I'm exaggerating with my illustration of course, but I think you can see why we should not forcibly create equality.

    Like you said, as lousy as the US is, it is still the best we have so far. Founding fathers didn't just got lucky when they designed this government. They were not just bunch of backwards thinking neanderthals..., they actually put a lot of thought into creating the best possible government for future generations.

    Yes, it's important to make progress, I'm sure founding fathers were not against progress. Our constitution is amendable, unlike the Word of God or something... Founders weren't that arrogant to think that they got it perfectly right...

    Anyway, my point in this thread is essentially this:

    Just like I may not like your speech, but I still support free speech.
    I may not like your religion, but I still support religious freedom.
    I also don't really like guns, but I still support people's right to bear arms.

    Yes, violence is very backwards indeed, but utopia is not about to happen anytime soon.

    Notice that they never really had the right to own slaves included there even though it's readily apparent that slave owning is happening everywhere. OT Bible taught about it too. So why not include that apparently God given right in our constitution? Could've also saved US from a civil war!

    So I'm pretty sure founders didn't just include the right to bear arms for no good reason.

    If we have to find some silver lining about our current gun violence problems..., I think that would be to high light our various other social dysfunctions. Our healthcare is insufficient. Our families are falling apart. Our communities are also just way too disconnected. Gun control laws wont' fix those problems. Canada doesn't have the same gun problems we have, but obviously they have similar social problems. Those are the things we ought to focus on fixing, rather than just focus on how to ban guns.

    Never mind the reality that the pandora's box has opened and it'll be impossible to ban guns in the US at this point.

    Let the nations leaders set good examples by baning nuclear weapons 1st. Then perhaps we can think about asking citizens to drop their guns too. I'm all for USA becoming the 1st nation to destroy all of its nukes. I'd agree nukular missiles are totally useless! But will that happen?
    Last edited by Crazed_Insanity; May 8th, 2018 at 09:45 AM.

  6. #1406
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godson View Post
    Again. You guys ignore a key point about the US military.

    I'm done trying to explain it.
    You have mentioned that many military are pro 2A.

    And what has that got to do with overthrowing a govt you don’t like?

    We are not saying it’s “overthrow a govt that is repealing 2A”, just one that is bad and getting rid of democracy.
    Hard to say where individuals would land on the topic. Easy to say “I’d be against it”, but if it comes because of terrorism and defending freedom it’s possible to sell it as a temporary (but ongoing) solution.

    Scenario - Trump declares that outside powers have corrupted the electoral process, that the next election will be delayed a year while the issues are fixed. The other branches of govt have just enough support that it could happen.
    Throw in a war against someone to keep fear up and justify the whole thing.
    Now what?

    Where would military people fall on this?
    Does having a right to a gun help if your govt goes rogue?
    How many supporters of the party/people taking control would support it because they don’t want the other side in power?

    I don’t see a gun helping in this scenario. You just get labelled terrorist and others with guns would fight you.
    The irony is that the most likely scenario people would use a gun against the govt is if they took away the right to have a gun.

  7. #1407
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    Quote Originally Posted by balki View Post
    Still think the US is the fairest and least dysfunctional major nation.
    Was that a statement or a question?

    Me. No I think it’s one of the least fair and most dysfunctional major nations.
    It usually falls down lists of equality and lifestyle compared to other western nations (and especially Scandinavian countries)
    Plenty that is great about it. Plenty that is very backward.

  8. #1408
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dicknose View Post
    I don’t see a gun helping in this scenario. You just get labelled terrorist and others with guns would fight you.
    The irony is that the most likely scenario people would use a gun against the govt is if they took away the right to have a gun.
    Whatever scenario, if the US military splits and end in a civil war, naturally we don't really need citizens with guns. However, considering what had happened once before, I guess I won't blame that more Southerners now want to stock up more guns in case another war against the federal government breaks out!

    In the event that military doesn't split or the bad side won out and become storm troopers, then of course that'd be the time for us to join the rebel alliance and start terrorizing the evil empire... having lots of guns would help.

    Of course the other approach is to just play pacifist. Let the evil empire/nazi/cancer spread and win and then patiently wait for it to eventually die. Surely nobody will live forever in this world. So one could just let things play its course. However, in such an unlikely scenario, I'd rather pick up a rifle and shoot down as many storm troopers as possible before I die.

  9. #1409
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    I'm also in the "I saw you mention how many pro 2A people are in the military many times, but I still am unable to grasp the point you're trying to make" camp.

  10. #1410
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dicknose View Post
    Was that a statement or a question?

    Me. No I think it’s one of the least fair and most dysfunctional major nations.
    It usually falls down lists of equality and lifestyle compared to other western nations (and especially Scandinavian countries)
    Plenty that is great about it. Plenty that is very backward.
    You have to be more specific, how much is plenty? Is USA overall moving humanity forward or backwards?

    Yeah yeah, I know Trump probably isn't helping my case...

    Even considering the Scandinavian countries with their awesome single payer healthcare..., I do believe US contribute more to the progress of medical science than Scandinavian nations. Should one day USA becomes more socialistic, perhaps progress in medicine would slow...

    Win some lose some. We just can't have it all.

    From 13 colonies, USA became a global leader in couple of hundred years. It'd be interesting to see in couple of hundred more... where US will be compared to the Scandinavian countries. Even with crazies such as Trump leading this nation, I believe there's a good chance US will continue to lead the world. I just don't see other governments setup as well as the US.

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