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Thread: Gun control

  1. #11
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    I know very few people that have "a handgun." Some - my dad (and it was his dad's before him) - but very few. Most people I know who own guns have a LOT. A dozen or two dozen. Easy to see how 100m people own 350m guns.

  2. #12
    THE KING IN THE NORTH! TheBenior's Avatar
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    I pretty much agree with TSG, except I do like me some guns.

    In spite of that, I'll go out and say that our murder rate wouldn't be so high if there weren't so many guns in this country. Guns are the most effective, portable, readily accessible devices you can use for killing. The UK has a much higher reported violent crime rate than the US, but the murder rate is much, much lower. It's a lot more difficult to stab or beat somebody to death.

    If we were going to do something about the availability/types of guns in this country, that time was probably a century ago. Right now, there are way too many to confiscate, and as TSG said, the people who would turn them in aren't the people you have to worry about.

    I'll also add that for all the press that mass shootings get, they're fairly insignificant in terms of total numbers of firearms-related homicides. The black market created by drug prohibition is responsible for many, many more homicides. Ending drug prohibition would probably be the most effective crime reduction policy change ever.

  3. #13
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    To solve the problem you'd have to round them all up and destroy them. Not going to happen here like it did in OZ, because:

    A) We have some measure of protection of the ownership rights codified in a legal document that is so difficult to change, it's only happened twenty-odd times in over 200 years, and...
    B) We have other countries on our continent, most of which have greater written restrictions on gun ownership, but frequently poor institutional control in general. So it gets back to the problem tsg mentioned - they'll get in through other means, just like drugs do.

  4. #14
    Consultant KillerB's Avatar
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    I'm also going to state something logically true but somewhat cold-hearted - unless you live in certain disadvantaged communities, your likelihood of being a victim of random gun violence is still pretty tiny. It's just not a factor of daily life for a large swath of the American public. Additionally, those disadvantaged groups (such as black Americans) feel - quite justifiably - that the police with their guns pose a greater threat to their well being than other citizens with guns.

    Even if you are 100 times more likely to be a victim of mass murder by gun in the U.S., 100 times "basically never" is still fucking unlikely.

    They say "no other advanced nation has events like this," but no other advanced nation has this many people spread over this kind of area.

  5. #15
    Bad Taste novicius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheBenior View Post
    Ending drug prohibition would probably be the most effective crime reduction policy change ever.
    Yep absolutely.

    But replacing drug prohibition with gun prohibition would just change one addiction for another.

  6. #16
    THE KING IN THE NORTH! TheBenior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KillerB View Post
    Additionally, those disadvantaged groups (such as black Americans) feel - quite justifiably - that the police with their guns pose a greater threat to their well being than other citizens with guns.
    Justifiably? Not really, even in Chicago, police shoot around 40-60 people per year, 10-15 of them fatally. They're around 30 times more likely to be killed by another black person, and if they don't get locked up on a regular basis, the odds of getting killed by the police here are negligible.

  7. #17
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    I don't think the suggestion was necessarily being shot by the police, but more the fear of being shot by police. When daily life includes getting hassled by the man you start to develop distrust. If you distrust the people who are there to protect you, you'll take protection into your own hands. And then you have a bunch of fearful people running around with guns acting irresponsibly. That's a whole socio-economic-racial thing, though, not really gun control.

    Summary: Good luck collecting 350m guns and then preventing more from being made/imported/sold. Good. Luck.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by thesameguy View Post
    I'm not sure gun control at this point would really do any good. Firearms have been very good for a very long time, and low prices means that anyone who wants a gun has one. Probably many. If tomorrow guns were outlawed the only people who would be giving up their guns are the people that probably weren't a concern in the first place. The criminals and the nutjobs (same thing?) would still have lots and lots and lots of guns. Such a law might prevent a newborn wacko from taking out a shopping mail in 2035 or something, but there are such huge inventories in the underworld I seriously question whether that person would really have a hard time getting one. I mean, look at drugs. There more and better drugs available every day despite being illegal. If someone wants drugs, they get drugs. Guns would be no different, and arguably more difficult to control. People with serious drug problems ultimately take themselves out of the equation anyway. People with serious gun problems likely won't until it's too late.

    It may sound defeatist and maybe it is. Don't try because you'll never win. Well, I'd like folks to take a strong look at the fallout from a potential war on guns and look at what every other war on [blank] has yielded. NOTHING. The problem isn't the thing. It isn't drugs, it isn't poverty, it isn't guns. It's people. People are the problem. Teach people how to be responsible, help people take care of themselves and others, and get people the assistance they need when they break down. Taking the remote control away from your kid doesn't teach him not to sit in front of the TV. Why would taking guns (or drugs, or prostitutes, or anything else) be any more effective?

    People tend to act destructively and self destructively when the environment around them is so inhospitable there is no better alternative. Yeah, plenty of them are just flat out crazy and any rational definition of hospitable is meaningless and that's certainly a difficulty. But nobody in a loving family (biological or otherwise), with a job they adore, and opportunities galore in front of them acts out in crazy ways. Identifying people who at risk of unsurmountable depression and getting them help is how you solve a society's problems, not taking toys away. If folks have good things to live for, they're going to do the best they can to protect those possible futures.

  9. #19
    Consultant KillerB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thesameguy View Post
    I don't think the suggestion was necessarily being shot by the police, but more the fear of being shot by police. When daily life includes getting hassled by the man you start to develop distrust. If you distrust the people who are there to protect you, you'll take protection into your own hands. And then you have a bunch of fearful people running around with guns acting irresponsibly. That's a whole socio-economic-racial thing, though, not really gun control.

    Summary: Good luck collecting 350m guns and then preventing more from being made/imported/sold. Good. Luck.
    Exactly on both. "Driving While Black" is totally a thing.

  10. #20
    What fresh hell is this? overpowered's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by G'day Mate View Post
    So how is it that they're so powerful with only 5 million members? Or is it kind of like a union, where not everyone needs to be involved to cause a lot of chaos
    "Power is a curious thing... Three great men, a king, a priest, and a rich man. Between them stands a common sellsword. Each great man bids the sellsword kill the other two. Who lives, who dies? ... Power resides where men believe it resides; it's a trick, a shadow on the wall, and a very small man can cast a very large shadow." -- Varys

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