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Thread: Gun control

  1. #21
    Senior Member G'day Mate's Avatar
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    Nice

  2. #22
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    I'm sure we've all seen the Jim Jeffries stand-up rant on guns and Americans by now. That's probably the best essay on gun control I've ever heard.

    Not gunna lie to ya.

    I love guns. I love them the same way I love motorcycles. They're fun and dangerous.

    Never used one, though. But I'd love to go shooting on a property somewhere where feral pigs, dogs, and cats are a nuisance, with the biggest, meanest, lead-throwing hardware available.

    So with that preface, I would love to see gun violence cease and kinda-sorta-almost support banning guns, but if you do that, as TSG said, people who really seriously want to kill someone with a gun will still get a gun and kill someone.

    I don't support the notion of one person ruining it for the rest of us. Just as murder is illegal, so is killing someone with a gun, but it still happens. Jail and other fun sorts of punishment are a good deterrent for crime among 99.9999% of the population, but shit still happens. Something like 0.00001% of the gun owning population in America have gone on killing sprees that kill a bunch of people, so why ruin it for the rest of us that will use guns for sport and work and recreation?

    Make it harder for psychos to get guns, by all means. But there's got to be a better way of preventing mass murder. Maybe paying attention to the weirdos and their manifestos, for once, and helping them?

  3. #23
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    The sad thing about the idea of helping those in mental distress, is so many people still paint mental instability as a lesser person and they want to shun them out. Not try and help them, I'm looking at you social Darwinism.

    Because of how little we as a society know about mental disorders, people get ignored until the pot boils over. It really is a sad position that neither political party wants to fix.

  4. #24
    Roundy-Round Racer tigeraid's Avatar
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    Back on the ol' temporary GTXF board Rob and I spent pages and pages arguing with 'murricans about this. I feel like I don't want to retread it all over, but I suppose I'll re-post this and we can re-discuss it:

    First, let's get the Second Amendment out of the way. "A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

    It was not written as some sort of neo-con creedo declaring that everyone is allowed to own a gun for personal safety. It was written so militias could be gathered amongst the citizenry should the British decide to attack. America has a militia now. It's called the military. If ever an Amendment needed to be re-written, it's that one.

    But that's irrelevant to the argument of gun control now anyway, because every gun-toting American has memorized the second part of that sentence, and considers it a creed to live by as an excuse to stroke their penis extensions.

    ...

    It's very, very hard, as a non-American, who has grown up literally without access, interest, education, knowledge, and only a rare SIGHTING of a gun, to argue about this with Americans. It always is.

    On the one hand, you have the argument that "if we ban gun ownership, criminals will still have guns, but now citizens won't." I hear that and think "dammit, it sounds logical."

    But then on the other hand, every single statistic shows that countries without gun ownership have little or no violent gun crime. The United States is responsible for over 80 percent of all the gun deaths in the 23 richest countries in the world combined. Anywhere from 9000 to 12,000 people a year are killed by guns in homicides (so, not counting suicides or accidents.) And that doesn't count tens of thousands of non-lethal shots.

    Japan has some of the strictest gun laws in the world. Almost no one owns guns. There is almost no gun crime, averaging less than 20 a year. In fact in 2006, the total was TWO murders.

    In the UK, almost no one owns guns. Homicides are typically 40 or less a year.

    Germany, which has gun ownership but the requirements are MASSIVELY more strict than the US, has around 200 murders a year.

    And here in Canada, our number hovers around 200 deaths a year as well.

    ......

    Now that last part is where it gets weird--on the one hand, hand guns are virtually impossible to own here. But on the other hand, we are a nation of hunters, perhaps even more so than the US, so our long gun ownership numbers are about the same as America's. We have guns all over the place, they're just rifles. And yet we have (comparatively) no murders.

    So is it as simple an answer as having adults grow up, stop waving their giant dick-extensions around in the air, and get tougher on what it MEANS to own a firearm, get more strict on WHO owns them?

    I agree wholeheartedly and completely that civilians should not own automatic weapons. Ever. Period. Or grenades. Or fucking RPGs, or whatever else. There is no reason to own any weapon beyond a simple rifle for hunting or, in theory, a simple handgun for personal defense, if you must. Anything else is dick-waving bullshit.

    And even owning the handgun is a dubious argument. Like I said, we have virtually none in Canada, and the crime reflects that. People have a shotgun or rifle around the farm for hunting and, if someone ever comes on the property threatening them, well, they've got a rifle I suppose.

    .....

    My attitude toward the whole thing is ambivalent because guns simply aren't a "thing" here. For anyone. And I suspect that much is true everywhere else in the first world that isn't America.

    Americans always ask me "what if someone breaks into your home, don't you just want to shoot them?" :roll:

    Well no, no I don't. I don't want to shoot anyone. First off, someone breaking into my home is an INCREDIBLY rare possibility, because crime in general is rare. Second off, the odds are INCREDIBLY in favour of that burgler not carrying a gun. Likely no weapon at all. I have a steel pipe by my bed, and another by the door, because I happen to live in one of the few cities in Canada that has ANY sort of home invasions happening, and I still suspect I'm being overly paranoid.

    Canada's laws generally dictate equal force for defense. If I shoot a burgler who is unarmed, I go to prison for Manslaughter. If I beat the shit out of him with my hands or a pipe but leave him alive, chances are I'll be just fine, and he'll go to jail for BnE. And in most cases historically, the jury has sided with the homeowner in these cases, UNLESS they murder the kid.

    The thought of beating a home invader with my bare hands fills me with a sort of odd mixture of pride and, at the same time, sadness, because I'm using a physical self-defense tool I learned on another human being. The thought of shooting one fills me with nothing but anger and sickness.

    .....

    It's hard NOT to blame the "culture of the gun." And I don't mean violence in video games or violence in movies. The rest of the world has that too, and we're getting along fine. It's the culture ingrained in your society since the revolution. Americans shoot first and ask questions later. Literally, they do. In the above example, in many States, you are permitted to shoot a fucker dead if he's on your property, REGARDLESS of the situation. Most Americans think that's just fine and dandy. It's their solution to everything, from the genocide of the Natives all the way to current foreign policy (invade and "free" Iraq, Afghanistan, etc.) Most gun-owning Americans will never agree to stricter gun laws because they literally believe they have a right to determine life and death, a right to take another's life easily and quickly, if they see fit. x(

    I think it's abhorrent, and a very scary way to live life. I fear for the human race if this is somehow the example of how to live that the world is supposed to "look up to." :uhm:

    In Canada we have no need for guns. It just doesn't enter into the public consciousness. When we had OUR mass school shooting at École Polytechnique, there was no massive outcry to allow us to carry guns. It was a rare tragedy, and most (MOST) Canadians were thankful this sort of thing is very rare because NO ONE OWNS GUNS. So it's very, very hard for the rest of us in the world to take anything Americans say seriously about gun ownership when the numbers ARE RIGHT THERE. If guns are banned, there's less guns, which means criminals have less/no guns. Americans I talk to argue VEHEMENTLY against that, but the NUMBERS ARE RIGHT THERE.

    Is it a fear thing? Are all American inherently paranoid? And maybe they should be, with crime as rampant as it supposedly is.... In America, easy gun ownership allows for more gun crime, and more gun ownership is required to defend against gun crime. Which is an argument to keep hand guns. The only question is how such a vicious circle can ever be stopped.

    EDIT: And to answer the original post, things like background checks, thorough psychiatric evaluations, and other such things, likely will never happen either, because they impact on gun retailers' "freedom" to sell guns to nut jobs. Which means it hurts the bottom dollar. So it won't happen.

  5. #25
    Roundy-Round Racer tigeraid's Avatar
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    And to elaborate on that last point, America will never, ever, ever take guns away from people. It would be civil suicide, the country would erupt in war. Gun control is 100% necessary to drag your country kicking and screaming into the 21st (hell, 20th) century. But banning altogether will never happen. Obama's excellent suggestions that were all shot down would be a start. Better background checks, more crucial vetting of owners, restrictions on ammunition counts and clip sizes, UNDERSTANDING AND AIDING MENTAL ILLNESS... ANYTHING to reduce gun ownership to "reasonable."

    But no matter how many statistical factual information you show a Republican, now matter how much proof there is that countries with strict gun laws have very little violent gun crime (and despite that hilarious straw-man argument that "knife violence increases"), I highly doubt it will ever happen.


    EDIT: oh, and I was corrected/educated on "automatic weapons" by several gun-guys later in the thread, mea culpa. I mean assault weapons in general. To hunt, you need a rifle. To protect yourself against other gun nuts (understandable in America) you need a hand-gun. Maybe even a hand-gun that holds a nice big clip. And that's it. There is never, ever a reason to own a semi-automatic rifle that can hold a bazillion bullets and laser-targeting and night-vision and a scope and all that other bullshit, except for one reason: because you like guns and you enjoy owning and using that implement of death. You are not hunting any animals with it (that you need to) and it's completely unnecessary to protect yourself. Which was my over-arching point when I mentioned "automatic" weapons.
    Last edited by tigeraid; June 25th, 2015 at 08:18 AM.

  6. #26
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    A gun is only a weapon when used as such.

    Aiming an assault rifle is easier than aiming a pistol.

    And there are some animals that are hunted mainly in the late night and super early morning when visibility is zero which almost requires night vision or night time aids (I do NOT condone spotlighting.)

  7. #27
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    TR, there is so much flawed in what wrote I am not going to start, but this downright offensive:

    Is it a fear thing? Are all American inherently paranoid? And maybe they should be, with crime as rampant as it supposedly is...
    "Gun owners" are not the whole of Americans, they are a small subset. "Gun enthusiasts" are a smaller subset still. "Gun owning wackos" are a tiny, tiny, very vocal minority. You are painting an entire people with an offensive brush. Blacks are criminals, Christians are homophobes. Bullshit. I am an anti-gun non gun owning American who has never once in his life feared for gun violence. I am MOST Americans. Get off your high horse.

  8. #28
    What fresh hell is this? overpowered's Avatar
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    I wouldn't call it a small subset. About 1/3 of americans have guns in their homes. It's a minority, but it's a non-trival minority. Otherwise, I agree about the enthusiasts and wackos.

    We also have almost as many guns as people.

  9. #29
    Roundy-Round Racer tigeraid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godson View Post
    A gun is only a weapon when used as such.

    I do not agree with this statement. The same nonsense argument that "you might as well ban cars and knives because cars and knives kill people too!"

    Cars exist as a mode of transport, that happens to kill some people. Knives exist as a tool for carving, cutting, eating, prying and digging, and they happen to kill some people. Banning cars would grind civilization to a halt. Banning knives would be virtually impossible anyway, and likely do the same.

    Guns exist to take life. Whether it's animal or human, they are implements of killing, period. If you go to a gun range and practice with your toys, you are still practicing to kill SOMETHING. And again I'm not at all against hunting, this isn't an anti-hunting argument.

    But no, they are not a "tool that can also kill." They are a tool that specifically exists to kill.

  10. #30
    Roundy-Round Racer tigeraid's Avatar
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    tsg: and maybe it should be offensive? Maybe it's okay to hear non-Americans' opinions on why the entire rest of the world thinks you're all fucking looney?

    EDIT: and it's not intended as an insult, it's intended as an open-ended question from an incredulous observer.

    As Jim Jeffries rightly says, if you wanna say "fuck it, I love guns, you can't have my guns" and that's your only reason for owning guns, well, good on ya. We'll keep calling you looney, but who gives a fuck.

    But don't shadow your true reason for owning the fucking things with absurdest arguments like "protecting my freedom" and "defending against an oppressive regime" or some other bullshit. I have a friend who's into gun-range shit, shooting and such, and owns various rifles. He's invited me to participate, and I refuse simply because, being a car guy, being a tech guy, I KNOW that if I get into guns, I too will enjoy them for their technology, their power and the skill required. I need another expensive hobby like I need a hole in the head, so I don't do it. I understand the DRAW to being a gun enthusiast.
    Last edited by tigeraid; June 25th, 2015 at 10:09 AM.

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