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Thread: Gun control

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by tigeraid View Post
    I do not agree with this statement. The same nonsense argument that "you might as well ban cars and knives because cars and knives kill people too!"

    Cars exist as a mode of transport, that happens to kill some people. Knives exist as a tool for carving, cutting, eating, prying and digging, and they happen to kill some people. Banning cars would grind civilization to a halt. Banning knives would be virtually impossible anyway, and likely do the same.

    Guns exist to take life. Whether it's animal or human, they are implements of killing, period. If you go to a gun range and practice with your toys, you are still practicing to kill SOMETHING. And again I'm not at all against hunting, this isn't an anti-hunting argument.

    But no, they are not a "tool that can also kill." They are a tool that specifically exists to kill.

    Do you want to ban Bows and arrows? They were designed to kill.

    Quote Originally Posted by tigeraid View Post
    As Jim Jeffries rightly says, if you wanna say "fuck it, I love guns, you can't have my guns" and that's your only reason for owning guns, well, good on ya. We'll keep calling you looney, but who gives a fuck.

    But don't shadow your true reason for owning the fucking things with absurdest arguments like "protecting my freedom" and "defending against an oppressive regime" or some other bullshit. I have a friend who's into gun-range shit, shooting and such, and owns various rifles. He's invited me to participate, and I refuse simply because, being a car guy, being a tech guy, I KNOW that if I get into guns, I too will enjoy them for their technology, their power and the skill required. I need another expensive hobby like I need a hole in the head, so I don't do it. I understand the DRAW to being a gun enthusiast.

    So you call us names for liking them, then you say that you can see why we enjoy them? Get off your high horse.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by tigeraid View Post
    tsg: and maybe it should be offensive? Maybe it's okay to hear non-Americans' opinions on why the entire rest of the world thinks you're all fucking looney?
    Like Whites think Blacks are looney? Or like Christians think Muslims are looney? Look, man, not everybody lives in the same way. Not everyone does the same thing. The American version of liberty and self-sovereignty is possibly a little different that what goes in Japan or Germany. For example, fifty years ago we did not put a guy in power bent on genocide. Maybe the same thing that lets Germans have a low gun homicide rate or Japan have a low gun homicide rate isn't the lack of guns but a cultural predisposition. The same kind that builds gas chambers for Jews or continually and materially oppresses women. Every culture has its pros on cons. Some Muslims fly planes into buildings and some Americans like to shoot up a playground now and then. It doesn't mean Muslims are flawed or evil or should be mocked, and frankly I don't think you do either. I am baffled at why you think it's okay to turn that cannon on America, the place that keeps you safe from dirty, job-stealing Mexicans. Of course I don't really mean Mexicans are dirty, but I think by invoking such a stereotype we can have a larger conversation about why they steal our jobs. Did I do that right?

    Quote Originally Posted by overpowered View Post
    I wouldn't call it a small subset. About 1/3 of americans have guns in their homes. It's a minority, but it's a non-trival minority. Otherwise, I agree about the enthusiasts and wackos.

    We also have almost as many guns as people.
    I guess I don't know what constitutes a small subset, but 1 out 4 or 1 out of 3 is certainly not sufficient ratios to generate a reasonable stereotype. "Americans love guns" is not a statistically valid statement no matter how you cut it. Americans are, if anything, statistically ambivalent about guns.

    Edit: What America has is concentrations of wealth in relatively small groups which allows those small groups a disproportionate vote in how this ship gets steered. If you want to say anything damning about America, it's that we have wackos with a lot of money who have undue influence on our laws. The problem as it applies to guns is that the NRA puts "gun ownership" at the top of its to do list, and is not going to stand by and allow any encroachment on that right for fear of exploiting a chink in the armor. Requiring education or better certification would be that chink, and it's a pathetic position - but their position nonetheless.

    And that said, anyone who thinks you can take 350,000,000 whatevers out of the hands of 100,000,000 people by ANY means is fucking nuts. So, regardless of the merit of banning guns, it's a pointless discussion. There is no methodology that exists to force that to happen. The only way it happens is when people want to give up their whatevers. In terms of guns, clearly we don't think the risk of guns is any more real than the risk of coke or meth. Because we do those things, the incentives for not doing them are not sufficient.
    Last edited by thesameguy; June 25th, 2015 at 11:36 AM.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godson View Post
    Do you want to ban Bows and arrows? They were designed to kill.
    I never said I wanted guns banned. Hunting is perfectly acceptable, and a valuable practice. Reasonable rifle ownership, properly licensed, vetted, and background-checked. And bows and arrows are equally as useful for similar purpose. Should those bows and arrows shoot 15 arrows per second, I might consider that a little ridiculous.


    So you call us names for liking them, then you say that you can see why we enjoy them? Get off your high horse.
    I may not have been clear enough in my rant, and after all I just pasted it from like 3 years ago. My argument is two-fold:

    A) societies with severe gun laws have virtually no gun crime, and people in those societies generally don't think about them one way or another, and it does not affect their lives. And these facts never seem to make a difference to pro-gun folks. BUT, having said that, I fully acknowledge that banning guns is not only virtually impossible in your country, but that it would lead to civil war.

    B) the "culture of the gun" is chiefly the reason gun violence exists the way it does in the USA. And the culture is duplicitous: most (but not all) gun owners rail on and on about the second amendment, about protecting themselves and their family, and about needing to fight an oppressive regime. Other gun owners simply come right out and say "I like guns, I think they're cool. I will continue to play with them." And I would rather hear THAT than the first bullshit. There's an understanding, however flawed, to be had there.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by thesameguy View Post
    Like Whites think Blacks are looney? Or like Christians think Muslims are looney? Look, man, not everybody lives in the same way. Not everyone does the same thing. The American version of liberty and self-sovereignty is possibly a little different that what goes in Japan or Germany. For example, fifty years ago we did not put a guy in power bent on genocide. Maybe the same thing that lets Germans have a low gun homicide rate or Japan have a low gun homicide rate isn't the lack of guns but a cultural predisposition.

    Race is not culture. Race is not religion.

    Yes, I can look at a different CULTURE and think they're looney. Yes I abso-fuckin-LUTELY can look at Muslims AND Christians and think they're looney. I do it all the time. And when that looney-ness spills into either violence or affects others lives negatively (via political policy or bullshit moral policing), I feel I have a RIGHT to do so.

    But you're absolutely right, the American way of life vs a German or Japanese way of life has just as much to do with as the physical weapons. Which is why I speak of the Culture of the Gun and all its sordid problems. It's ALSO why I said that America can and never will ban guns, because it simply will not be allowed to happen.

    Your line of thinking is perfectly acceptable: that maybe if we flooded Germany with guns right now, nothing would change and the murder rate would stay roughly the same. It would be interesting to see, though I don't see a plausible way of testing it. So I'm not sure there's a point, and is that not really just condemning your country as gun-violent, exactly what Godson is so insulted by?

    There's two sides to this discussion: a) what to do about the problem and b) how the rest of the world sees, and deals with the problem. And a lot of folks, such as Godson, do not like hearing what other countries and cultures think about it. Is the assumption, then, that there's nothing to learn about the issue outside the country?

    I assume you're proposing to attack the problem at its source, programs to assist with mental illness, look for early warning signs, try to teach kids to avoid the culture of the gun, as well as crime in general. All noble goals, and necessary, absolutely. But in the meantime, why not some useful, logical restrictions to gun ownership to help? If it saves even a hundred lives a year, and the only result is a minor inconvenience for a "responsible" gun owner of waiting a week for his background check?

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by tigeraid View Post
    Race is not culture. Race is not religion.

    Yes, I can look at a different CULTURE and think they're looney. Yes I abso-fuckin-LUTELY can look at Muslims AND Christians and think they're looney. I do it all the time. And when that looney-ness spills into either violence or affects others lives negatively (via political policy or bullshit moral policing), I feel I have a RIGHT to do so.
    Don't even try and defend your stereotyping. People don't choose where they're born any more than they choose their skin color, it's not okay to stereotype based on skin color and it's not okay to stereotype based on birthplace. Or anything else.

    There's two sides to this discussion: a) what to do about the problem and b) how the rest of the world sees, and deals with the problem. And a lot of folks, such as Godson, do not like hearing what other countries and cultures think about it. Is the assumption, then, that there's nothing to learn about the issue outside the country?
    a) The thing to do is focus on the problem, which very well might be that Death of Intellectualism OP posted elsewhere. The issue is not guns, gays, or global warming. Those are boondoggles. Those are people in power latching onto ultimately trivial subjects and obfuscating the real issue with idiotic arguments. The issue in this country (and maybe others) is a bizarre fascination with reveling in ignorance. The same thing that causes a man to stockpile military hardware causes a man to waste a moment opposing gay marriage or argue about greenhouse emissions. Ignorance and a total inability to focus on items of real import because they're mired in total bullshit.

    b) Who the fuck cares what the rest of the sees or thinks? Germany doesn't have a 3.8m square mile land mass and Japan doesn't have 350 million people. Nobody asks Germany for food or Japan for earthquake relief. Nobody asked the UK to save them from Germany. I'm not saying this from some patriotic or jingoistic place in my heart, I'm using examples from history to illustrate the point that the challenges America faces are not the same challenges other countries in the world faces, and that maybe some of the things that make us appear to be a bunch of gun waving crazies also results in us responding pretty promptly when needed. Trying to extrapolate things that work on an island nation into things that might work on an enormous continent is like trying to extrapolate how Walmart might be successful based on what Bob's General Store does. The scale is wrong, the pieces are different. I don't think Godson has any aversion to hearing what others say, but I do think he, like me gets irritated when people suggest "It works over here, you try it" has any merit. Because it doesn't. It is, I'm sorry, dumb.

    I assume you're proposing to attack the problem at its source, programs to assist with mental illness, look for early warning signs, try to teach kids to avoid the culture of the gun, as well as crime in general. All noble goals, and necessary, absolutely. But in the meantime, why not some useful, logical restrictions to gun ownership to help? If it saves even a hundred lives a year, and the only result is a minor inconvenience for a "responsible" gun owner of waiting a week for his background check?
    As I have said repeatedly, I am in 100% support of anything that makes guns more difficult to get, up to and including banning them outright. What I have also said, repeatedly, is that organizations wield unbalanced power and getting such legislation to go anywhere is probably not going to work out. We had a deuce of a time passing legislation to help people stay healthy, do you really think there is going to be much progress on keeping a couple hundred extra people alive? Puhleeze. Like I said at the beginning, this is a pointless discussion. People are not going to give up what they don't want to give up. The solution to any problem is create a scenario where the problem solves itself. I don't have nearly the brain power nor the expertise to work on constructing those scenarios, but I assure you that taking the remote control away doesn't solve shit, ever.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by thesameguy View Post
    Don't even try and defend your stereotyping. People don't choose where they're born any more than they choose their skin color, it's not okay to stereotype based on skin color and it's not okay to stereotype based on birthplace. Or anything else.

    I don't believe I was stereotyping (though again, I did not re-read my pasted rant from 3 years ago)... I don't believe all gun owners are insane. I said many are, and the Culture of the Gun in general is. Are you honestly saying that, because someone is raised in a nation where the gun is worshiped, and that person ends up turning into a "gun nut" (in the worst sense) that I'm not permitted to say "wow, that guys fucking crazy" just because some OTHER guys who own guns are NOT crazy?

    If it makes this minor bitchfest between us go away, I would replace "Americans" in my pasted rant with "some of those American who are ignorant gun nuts." If that helps.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by tigeraid View Post
    I don't believe I was stereotyping (though again, I did not re-read my pasted rant from 3 years ago)... I don't believe all gun owners are insane. I said many are, and the Culture of the Gun in general is. Are you honestly saying that, because someone is raised in a nation where the gun is worshiped, and that person ends up turning into a "gun nut" (in the worst sense) that I'm not permitted to say "wow, that guys fucking crazy" just because some OTHER guys who own guns are NOT crazy?

    If it makes this minor bitchfest between us go away, I would replace "Americans" in my pasted rant with "some of those American who are ignorant gun nuts." If that helps.
    The fact that you keep returning to "where the gun is worshipped" is symptomatic of your greater bias. People in America worship the gun. People in Canada worship the gun. People everywhere worship the gun. That does not make America a gun-worshipping nation any more than it makes Iraq a suicide bomb worshipping nation. There are crazy people everywhere, and generalizing an entire group based on the idiosyncrasies of one of their components is just flat-out wrong. It is the same faulty logic. And, perhaps wrongly, I interpret those type of simplifications to be part of the issue in solving problems. Treating a skilled rifle hunter as a "gun toting wacko" puts that person on the defensive, and now he has to choose whether to side with the people who want to ban guns or the actual gun toting wackos who think everyone should have one. It's not only in error, it's bad politics, a roadblock to getting anything productive done. Referring to an entire nation as gun-worshipped is no different. Stereotypes are obstacles to problem-solving. Don't do it.

  8. #38
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    So you don't agree that America has a greater number of people of this kind than elsewhere in the world? Or are you saying that, while you have the greatest number, the culture that they are raised in ALSO raises responsible gun owners, and therefore should be ignored?

  9. #39
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    The side of town i live in is where probably 90 to 95% of all of them in this place happen.

    I have never worried about it happening to me. Ever. The only guns i see besides those owned by family are those carries by police.

    Btw basically every shooting death here is an illegally owned gun.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by tigeraid View Post
    So you don't agree that America has a greater number of people of this kind than elsewhere in the world? Or are you saying that, while you have the greatest number, the culture that they are raised in ALSO raises responsible gun owners, and therefore should be ignored?
    I am saying that until every man, woman, and child is issued a firearm on their 16th birthday and shooting is taught in primary school that characterizing the American people as a whole as gun-worshipping is sensationalism and nothing more. Employing sensationalism in any conversation is as unproductive as stereotyping in problem solving. Don't do it.

    I am not and have not commented on the number of gun owning wackos is in the US versus other countries, nor have I commented on what the effect of American culture is on the ratio of responsible vs. irresponsible gun owners. That would be an inane conversation as I have no evidence to support either side of that discussion. What I have suggested is that a) attempting to draw parallels between what happens here and what happens elsewhere has no purpose, no possible useful outcome, as there are about zero common factors, and b) discussing the legal status of guns is somewhere between moot and counterproductive.

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