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Thread: Michigan State

  1. #21
    I'm gooder. Phil_SS's Avatar
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    IMO, it's in the "way the fuck outta line" level of disrespect.

  2. #22
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    Not trying to discuss respect... and sometimes out of respect is how things get fucked up!

    Previously, victims stay silent out of respect for the Catholic Church, for the Oscar winning studio, for the gold winning gymnastics team. How dare you disrespect these great organizations with these charges!

    Today, it's reversed. If you're accused, you're pretty much guilty! How dare you not believe these victims? (well, I wish this same thing could happen to Trump too, but not sure how he stayed immune to this for so long...)

    I have a 6 year old daughter myself so of course it's in my interest to see our society becoming better for her so that she won't fall victim of these assaults!

    However, we have to do this thing right..., not just allow emotions to run wild.

    Back to topic, if the story is absolutely true, we most definitely need to get to the bottom of it and get all guilty parties. It can't just be one man. We also need to find ways to prevent this crap in the future.

    As of right now, the president stepped down, yeah, but she doesn't really seem that remorseful and believe she's just taking the fall for the political fallout.

    Just stepping down to ease the angry mob is not the best possible outcome. More needs to be done!

    But this 'more' work requires careful investigation... Seeking justice to reform an organization could easily turn into a witch hunt too if emotions end up running wild.

    I think the most important thing out of this me too movement is that hopefully victims can now be brave enough to report abuses right away and not wait til a future date.

    Investigating events that happened decades ago can definitely make the investigation a lot harder... Memories can also become a lot less reliable. That is a scientific fact which has nothing to do with respect or disrespect.
    Last edited by Crazed_Insanity; January 29th, 2018 at 01:57 PM.

  3. #23
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    That's the thing, emotions haven't run wild yet. There are tons of famous men that haven't been accused of anything. As far as I can tell, none of the ones that have been accused that have both denied it and had no corroborating evidence have had to do shit.

    Even with Aziz Ansari, there's a whole debate over whether that was okay to talk about. Personally, I think what he did sounds creeper-y, and is a lesson we should all take that if you're pressuring someone into something, maybe it's time to take a step back, but that it doesn't cross the line into something criminal. I freely admit I might be wrong as I don't scour the internet for this, but if you can find an example of someone who has faced charges based solely on one person's account with no corroborating evidence, feel free to bring it.

    In the meantime, maybe realize that it's time to sit back and listen to people for a change. Understand why things like #notallmen or #whitelivesmatter are tone deaf and an example of not understanding that you haven't been listening this whole time, and that sometimes the truth fucking hurts.

    BTW, you're free to start a thread about sexual harassment and all that, but at least in this one, the whole MSU/NCAA/US Gymnastics thing seems pretty cut and dried. There was a systemic problem of abuse where people got away with it for *DECADES*, despite it being repeatedly reported. I maintain that coming in here and saying "well, now wait, maybe these women might be misremembering" seems like an awfully dickheaded thing to say.

    I'll end with paraphrasing something I saw on Twitter recently. I know I won't word it as well, but it was a woman saying "If you're the kind of person who says 'Well, is it even okay to talk to women anymore?', then no, it is not okay for you to talk to women anymore."

    EDIT: Also, I wanted to address "Anyway, Harvey Weinstein has to be the worst of the worse so far!". Nassar is now convicted of sexually abusing over 150 women, many of whom were underage, while serving as their physician, someone you really should be able to trust. I don't want to take away from what Harvey Weinstein did. He ruined people's careers simply because they didn't want his shriveled dick attached to his corpulent mass shoved into them. I don't even like the idea that you want to rank them as it feels like ranking Stalin vs. Hitler, but I'd still consider this worse.
    Last edited by Tom Servo; January 29th, 2018 at 02:20 PM.

  4. #24
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    Take your poor neighbor for example. When bunch of children from church accused a creepy deformed looking man of something, it can look pretty cut an dry too. Why would bunch of Jesus loving children lie?

    Anyway, I can admit that I have played dickhead's advocate in this thread in both ways. If I just can't talk about it or people just refuse to listen out of respect, then I'll just bow out of this thread.

    I also have little desire to start a sexual harassment thread because I don't believe most here are ready to talk about it out of respect of the victims. So with regard to Harvey, I think he is worst because not only does he deliberately do what he did, he also has a team of lawyers punishing those who'd speak up. If MSU/NCAA/US gymnastics also hired top notch team of lawyers defending these sick acts and crushing victims' careers, then I'll definitely equate them as badly as Harvey.

  5. #25
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    These accusations have been coming up since at least 2010, that's the earliest date I've personally heard. I'd argue they also have lawyers involved.

    In the meantime, I like that turnaround. "If I can't just talk about it or people just refuse to listen out of respect." That's amazing. The people who have have perpetrated this have been the only ones talking. The people running schools, the media, politics. Finally other voices are coming out.

    It's like barging into a room when women or people of color are finally getting to speak after what is literally centuries in this country and you're like "Yeah, but have we really heard what white men have had to say?"

  6. #26
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    I'm not a white man, nor am I trying to defend white men.

    Science of memories being unreliable goes for all races. Sexual predators can also come in all colors as well.

    I hope you're not trying to pin me as a white supremacist? Because it should be obvious that I'm not.

    Anyway, if you wish to continue, please start a new thread, let's leave the MSU thread out of respect.

  7. #27
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    Hey Billi:

    1) There’s no point in arguing both extremes in the interest of balance when there’s such nuance and grey area in between the two that you’re obviously not interested in.
    2) People much smarter than me, and much much smarter than you, are already onto the concept of repressed memories and how it applies to testimony. Put your trust in the professionals.
    3) Please stop.

  8. #28
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    I guess I'm not shocked that the point soared gloriously over your head. You're doing this weird devil's advocate thing where you claim that we're not giving enough voice to the only group that's had almost the entire voice for hundreds of years. In this case, it tends to be white men.

    My point being: it's a pretty lame and unnecessary attempt at being the devil's advocate when the devil is the status quo.

  9. #29
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    Billi.


    Go fuck yourself.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rare White Ape View Post
    Hey Billi:

    1) There’s no point in arguing both extremes in the interest of balance when there’s such nuance and grey area in between the two that you’re obviously not interested in.
    2) People much smarter than me, and much much smarter than you, are already onto the concept of repressed memories and how it applies to testimony. Put your trust in the professionals.
    3) Please stop.
    I've already stopped roughly an hour before your post...

    Regarding your point 1, I don't quite understand why you think I'm not interested in gray, by presenting both black and white? By definition, by including both, we will get gray. If I'm not interested in the in between, I'd not present both points.

    And to your 2, naturally I know there are people smarter than me... nor am I here to discredit the prosecution or defend that stupid doctor. But do most people here really know that sometimes people could reconstruct vivid memories with high level of confidence that are false? I've only personally recently learned of it in the past couple of years. Previously, there's no way I'd question my own vivid memories! Anyway, maybe I'm just behind the times and just talking about things you guys already know...

    I'm not really taking any sides. Just want to make sure ALL the guilty parties can really be held responsible and yet at the same time be sure we don't have anyone end up like Tom Servo's neighbor.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Servo View Post
    I guess I'm not shocked that the point soared gloriously over your head. You're doing this weird devil's advocate thing where you claim that we're not giving enough voice to the only group that's had almost the entire voice for hundreds of years. In this case, it tends to be white men.

    My point being: it's a pretty lame and unnecessary attempt at being the devil's advocate when the devil is the status quo.
    I honestly don't recall advocating for the devil, nor any white men, in this thread.

    Human memories have issues. That is a scientific fact. However, this fact does not necessary prove all victims memories are unreliable and all sexual predators are innocent.

    A lot of these victims were under aged girls. Back to my other extreme point..., who are the ones pushing these girls into these programs? I suppose a lot of girls might have signed up on their own, but even so, there must've been a lot of parental support!

    Moral of the stories is that parents also need to take greater responsibilities too. We obviously cannot fully trust the these Gold winning programs and even God's churches fully with our kids anymore. No amount of laws congress pass can be fool proof. We need to educate our kids what's appropriate and what's not... and be sure we keep line of communication with our kids fully open.

    Seriously, I'm not a white man. I also very much like to see less white men the positions of power in Wall Street, Silicon Valley and in politics and whatever institutions. I'm also not a believer of the devil.

    Obviously emotions are running too high to talk about these things... so I'll go fuck myself now.
    Last edited by Crazed_Insanity; January 30th, 2018 at 09:59 AM.

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