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Thread: Philisophical political thread...

  1. #1
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    Philisophical political thread...

    Anyway, for the sake of some folks, I think it's probably better for me to stay out of our usual political thread. For those who actually wish to engage me in discussions, please just do so here...

    I'll just start with DN's post from the other thread:

    Quote Originally Posted by Dicknose View Post
    Billi - again Im going to say "power"

    if the person you should report has power over you, then you are less culpable. Of cause its a balance between the seriousness of the offence and the degree of power (risk job, risk life). Generally if they have any significant power, then you could be at great personal risk if you say anything.
    Now if the person who knows has the power or is an equal, that is then very different.

    We just had a catholic cardinal loss a court case and will now stand trial. This is very different to say an altar boy also knowing what was going on.
    The cardinal helped cover up crimes.

    So yeah - a driver is a lot bigger difference to a financial backer. That you are talking about more money, implying that they are buying you off, still doesnt change the huge disparity in power between them. Its hard to put blame on someone who didnt do the crime but knows about it, but who also has very little power. History (even recent history) is littered with people who "did the right thing", it went nowhere except to destroy them. You have to be very brave and determined to be a whistleblower.
    Weinstein is the classic example - he made good on threats and actresses found out that their careers were hurt (generally told "she is very hard to work with, dont use her" and people accepted his word)

    They way you are talking about this it seems like a weak attempt to shift blame.
    Not trying to shift blame, but to help everyone accept their share of responsibilities.

    Of course being a whistle blower is hard. No question.

    Of course being a member of a gang, every time you try to get out, they'll pull you back in.

    Of course when your son ended up a mass shooter with your guns, you should be somewhat responsible.

    Naturally the altar boy who did the cover up shouldn't be punished as severely as the cardinal, but can you really say that the boy is blameless?

    My point is nothing 'trumps' speaking the truth and doing the right things.

    When you give yourself excuses, such as I might lose something or get hurt or even die, that's how evil wiggles its way into our world.

    My Lord and Savior demonstrated this... do the right things even if it costs you your life!

    If you just can't mustard the courage to whistleblow or think it's not good to be a snitch, then at least quit the organization. If your gang won't even allow you to quit, then at least try to be the least effective member as possible... so that they'll want to get rid of you or something. Don't use these things as excuses to continue to do wrong things for them.

    Point is I'm not trying to shift blame from cardinal to the cover up altar boy, they all need to get their fair share of the blame. Now, I'm not saying we need to lock up the altar boy, maybe just a verbal reprimand or something. Point is, he needs to know he screwed up and should something similar happen again, he better not repeat his same mistakes! Don't be afraid to tell the truth so that we can nip evil in the bud.

    Take the #MeToo movement for example, I applaud the brave souls who exposed the crap their bosses have done. That is awesome. We absolutely need to bring awareness... to shed light on suck dark matters. However, such awareness should then initiate proper investigations in order to bring us to the real truth. We shouldn't just smear or discredit these whistle blowers credibility nor should we quickly rush off to ax the accused right away because of the accusations. I do admire the bravery of the #MeToo movement, but I'm just a bit scared at how people quickly just assume all such brave souls must be telling the truth. Unless we're witnesses, it will usually take a while for the rest of us to get to the bottom of it. Not need to rush either way... Used to be that the female employees get screwed, but now, we're experiencing the opposite effect. Need to stay somewhere in the middle. Oppression sucks. Power can swing around and it is now obviously in the girls' favor. If you are a white male boss and somebody accuses you, you're basically fucking screwed... because you're privileged and your daddies have oppressed a lot of people... so now we get to oppress you back!

    Anyway, that's just fucked up... and unfair for the whities.

    Just treat each other as decently and fair as possible. Senator Al Franken may very well be guilty once we get to the real truth, but I just felt he was being treated unfairly by the movement... that he never was given a chance to prove his innocence. The movement itself is admirable, but it has been warped into something very scary... Power has shifted.
    Last edited by Crazed_Insanity; June 5th, 2018 at 01:52 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Crazed_Insanity View Post

    Of course being a member of a gang, every time you try to get out, they'll pull you back in.

    Of course when your son ended up a mass shooter with your guns, you should be somewhat responsible.

    Naturally the altar boy who did the cover up shouldn't be punished as severely as the cardinal, but can you really say that the boy is blameless?

    My point is nothing 'trumps' speaking the truth and doing the right things.

    When you give yourself excuses, such as I might lose something or get hurt or even die, that's how evil wiggles its way into our world.
    Yes this is how bad things can happen and continue to happen.
    But again you make it sound like anyone involves shares some equal blame.
    Let’s take you examples above, gang member, gun owning dad and altar boy. Are they even close to equal?
    The three are different in actions.
    Altar boy has done, but knows things have happened. Could possibly even be a victim.
    The dad didn’t know, but was reckless and enabled a crime (and depending on gun laws probably broke the law)
    Your gang member I assume has taken part but either has a change of heart or things have escalated. Either way they were a willing member at some point.

    These examples are less about power and more about involvement.
    Sure the gang member alone doesn’t have much power, but being an active and will participant means that the power was used to coerce them. Maybe later when they try to leave - but they have already done their share of the crime.

    Your driver example is a much better one.
    Is the driver who overheard something as guilty as the business associates who help cover up.
    Even if the associates just turn a blind eye and weren’t directly helping, they have a much different position due to power.
    They take much less risk in exposing the crime.

    Sure anyone who knows takes some responsibility. But when there are lots of people who know, it seems wrong to pick on the people at the bottom of the pile. Start at the top.

    If you want to change behaviour the you have to start at the top.
    If you start at the bottom all that happens is a bunch of little people get crushed and nothing changes, the crimes continue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dicknose View Post
    But again you make it sound like anyone involves shares some equal blame.
    I don't understand how you guys nearly almost always end up with that conclusion. Is my writing really that lousy or unclear? Where in my post did I say everyone shares equal blame?

    And what do you mean by 'some'?

    Everyone knowingly involved shares some blame, definitely not equal. I'm advocating fair share of the blame, not all, not equal, not some equal... just whatever amount that is appropriate.

    Altar boy who knew but pretended to see and hear no evil is not blameless, right?

    Father who didn't secure his gun isn't blameless, right?
    Last edited by Crazed_Insanity; June 5th, 2018 at 02:56 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Crazed_Insanity View Post
    Take the #MeToo movement for example, I applaud the brave souls who exposed the crap their bosses have done. That is awesome. We absolutely need to bring awareness... to shed light on suck dark matters. However, such awareness should then initiate proper investigations in order to bring us to the real truth. We shouldn't just smear or discredit these whistle blowers credibility nor should we quickly rush off to ax the accused right away because of the accusations. I do admire the bravery of the #MeToo movement, but I'm just a bit scared at how people quickly just assume all such brave souls must be telling the truth. Unless we're witnesses, it will usually take a while for the rest of us to get to the bottom of it. Not need to rush either way... Used to be that the female employees get screwed, but now, we're experiencing the opposite effect. Need to stay somewhere in the middle. Oppression sucks. Power can swing around and it is now obviously in the girls' favor. If you are a white male boss and somebody accuses you, you're basically fucking screwed... because you're privileged and your daddies have oppressed a lot of people... so now we get to oppress you back!
    Agreed that we need to follow due process. And I’m not a fan of trial by media, that can be very damaging especially to people who rely on fame and popularity for their work.

    But I don’t think there has been a huge shift in power and abuse.
    Women (and sometimes men) are still being raped, assaulted, threatened, demeaned and bullied. We need to stop this.
    A small number of people might have been incorrectly accused or the seriousness of their offence greatly inflated.
    Unfortunately that a possibility, but we shouldn’t let that stop society from trying to get rid of a widespread and entrenched system of abuse.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Crazed_Insanity View Post
    I don't understand how you guys nearly almost always end up with that conclusion. Is my writing really that lousy or unclear? Where in my post did I say everyone shares equal blame?

    And what do you mean by 'some'?

    Everyone knowingly involved shares some blame, definitely not equal. I'm advocating fair share of the blame, not all, not equal, not some equal... just whatever amount that is appropriate.

    Altar boy who knew but pretended to see and hear no evil is not blameless, right?

    Father who didn't secure his gun isn't blameless, right?
    Father who didn’t secure his gun is very much to blame. That was his direct action. Don’t know gun,was there, but here that is a criminal offence.
    Altar boy that hears something but doesn’t say anything has not committed a crime.

    Why do you seem so intent on making sure everyone get their bit of the blame.
    Why worry about the people who have 1% of the blame when there are people with 99%
    That’s the problem, just by even mentioning the 1%ers it makes it seem that you are trying to reduce the culpability of the people who are responsible.

    I’d guess many of those 1%ers feel shame and guilt for their part. Possibly more than some of those who played a more substantial part.
    So why bother even mentioning them? Do you think we should prosecute them?
    Or do you want them to stand up and do something?
    There is no point asking or expecting them to act unless we can protect them. In the current system we can’t. Change needs to start at the top.

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    No, of course I'm not advocating prosecuting those with 1% share of the blame... if the altar boy already felt shameful, that might just be punishments enough! What I'm afraid of is for these people to feel blameless. 'Why do I even need to say anything? None of my business. Not my problem... ' that's not a good attitude to have, don't you agree?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dicknose View Post
    If you want to change behaviour the you have to start at the top.
    If you start at the bottom all that happens is a bunch of little people get crushed and nothing changes, the crimes continue.
    It doesn't matter top or bottom, but behaviors can only be changed one at the time and it's up to the individual to make that commitment to at least don't lie and don't do evil.

    Just because your boss, president, pastor had an affair, doesn't give you the excuse to fuck around.

    Just because your employees, students, constituents are dumb ass immoral deplorables, doesn't mean you should do likewise.

    #MeToo movement has shown us that it's not always the little people that get crushed.

    Revolutions also usually are started by frustrated little people.

    Things change by changing one person at a time. Doesn't matter from top or bottom.

    People also need to own up to their fair share of responsibilities..., and don't try to find excuses to get yourself off the hook.

    Naturally, from the prosecution's perspective, we definitely need to fry the big fish 1st. Get Harvey and the cardinal and the likes first, not his associates or the altar boy. But I just think people near the bottom absolutely need to pick up responsibility as well. If they also blamed themselves, then maybe next time such evils won't happen. If they don't blame themselves and just pretend they're also victims of circumstance, then they'll probably repeat the same mistakes again and allow evil to slowly foster when the next corrupt boss comes along.

    We all need to be more responsible regardless of how big or little you think you are. All men are created equal. Do you believe that? Okay, I know you don't, but do you believe all men have evolved to deserve equal basic rights and responsibilities?

    World doesn't change by changing our leaders. World changes only when we individually, then collectively, change.

    Of course leaders have the 'power' to manipulate the collective with propaganda or whatever, but if we commit ourselves to try to always tell the truth and do the right thing, corrupt leaders can only stay in power for a short while. Yeah, some of us might lose something, get hurt or perhaps even killed, but better that than allowing a corrupt leader to remain in power.
    Last edited by Crazed_Insanity; June 5th, 2018 at 04:46 PM.

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    The thing is that the people at the bottom can only act as a group. Then then tend to act against those at the top.
    It’s hard for a single person without power to do much other than sacrifice themselves.

    In the end its the behaviour of those with power doing the wrong thing that needs to change.
    This might require others to speak out, but it’s not these others that are starting the problem.

    Do you think these little people who are afraid are sitting back going “job well done, evil shielded for another day”
    Or going “survived another day, did what I did to protect me and my family”
    We need to help and support them, not punish them.
    Make them feel empowered so they can do the right thing. Not harass them because they were silent.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Crazed_Insanity View Post
    We all need to be more responsible regardless of how big or little you think you are. All men are created equal. Do you believe that? Okay, I know you don't, but do you believe all men have evolved to deserve equal basic rights and responsibilities?
    Equality - is a principle, a goal.
    It is not our reality (and may never be)

    It’s this inequality that leads to many of these problems. Abuse of power for personal gain is because we are not equal.
    Blaming the “less than equal” for not standing up doesn’t help.

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    For me, the Purpose of assessing blame of the peripheral characters is not to harass, but to point out where things can be improved. Would you characterize traffic violation fines or be forced to go to traffic schools or community services as forms of harassment?

    I'm only an egalitarian when it comes to equality of opportunity, basic rights and legal stuffs. Naturally we'll never achieve equal outcome for all. There'll always be richer more powerful people and there will always be little people.

    All I'm saying is that telling the truth and doing the right thing should be pretty basic and applicable to all. Just because I'm smaller and get scared easier, it'll then be more okay for me to do my evil master's bidding or just see and hear no evils? I'm not talking about morally gray stuffs, but blatant evils such as cardinals or bosses raping people...

    I can understand and even sympathize with the little guy, but I can't help myself to not place some blame on him. Of course the boss deserves most of the blame. Not trying to shift anything here.

    If the little guy is already guilt stricken, I can certainly be more sensitive to his feelings and not be too hard on him, but feelings aside, the guy is not blameless. Who knows maybe a slap on the wrist punishment is good for a soul who feels guilt stricken...

    Anyway DN, I think we can both see where each other is coming from. I can see that we need more sympathy for the little guys, but that doesn't mean we should excuse them as if they can do no wrong. Otherwise people might never pick up their own responsibilities because they can always just shift blame to their evil powerful boss or evil president.

    So what if our evil president backed out of the Paris Accord? What exactly are YOU doing to save the planet? Saving the planet is not just Donald Trump's job, but all of us little people's too! Of course it'd be nice if we're all on board about it. That'd certainly make the job easier. My point is, regardless what our leaders/bosses do, we can still do our part. It's probably easier to change your job rather than changing your boss. Even after job change, there's no guarantee your new boss or new president will be better. So we little people ought to just do what we should do and not give ourselves excuses bend to the will of our evil bosses or cover things up for him or stuff like that.

    I guess I just want you to understand that my emphasis isn't on 'blame', but on 'responsibility'. Changing others, especially changing leaders like Donald Trump, would be a lot harder than just choosing to do the right things for ourselves, right? Only thing we have full control of is ourselves. We little people can at least be responsible of ourselves.

    BTW, this video on youtube crossed my path and I thought a genius like you should lend your ears to this speaker for a few minutes?
    Last edited by Crazed_Insanity; June 6th, 2018 at 01:33 PM.

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    Hitler won a lot of votes. So basically it's the German Billis who allowed Nazi to happen?

    Quote Originally Posted by neanderthal View Post
    [/spoiler]

    Yes, motherfucker. Fucking YES!

    Do you get it now?
    I do get your yes to a certain degree, but when it comes to punishing Germans for their war crimes, should we include those voters as well? (Assuming we could actually track who voted for what...)

    My point is that voters shouldn't bear the brunt of the responsibility when some dickhead gained power thru manipulation.

    In order to save democracy, perhaps constitution needs to be amended so that we can weed out and prevent dickheads from appearing on ballots in the 1st place... such as requiring tax return full disclosures, resolved conflict of interests, no ongoing messy legal issues or investigations, etc.

    Once somebody 'legitimately' appears on a ballot, he or she should NOT be a wrong option for voters to pick!

    For now, if those currently in charge failed to satisfy enough voters to keep them in power... resulted in enough population angry enough to vote for Brexit and Trump and perhaps Hitler... you really going to blame the voters for unleashing their anger as if it's all their fault? Nationalistic/protectionistic wave has been a global phenomenon, something is wrong with globalism for sure. Course correction is definitely in order, but of course, we probably now have an over-correction... probably because of globalists insisting on status quo...

    So danger of democracy is that voters can emotionally over-react. Blaming voters is also basically holding nobody accountable for fuckups.
    Last edited by Crazed_Insanity; June 21st, 2018 at 09:20 AM.

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