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Thread: Jordan Peterson thread!

  1. #21
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    I want you to be able to look at your reasons and compare them with the counter reasons I’ve linked... if you honestly believe you’ve got superior reasons and not at all blinded by liberal political ideology, then I guess that’s that.

    I find myself very similar to Peterson in terms of where we’re at on the political spectrum... a left leaning centrist. However, I’m sure you guys see me much closer to alt right as well... btw, the only money I gave him was for his book.

    One thing horrible about partisan politics is that people are so set in their ways and they just can’t truly see their opponents accurately.

    Conservatism to the extreme resulted in Hitler... Socialism to the extreme resulted in Stalin and Mao. Ideally we need a healthy mix of both to do well. Sadly, we’re at a point of becoming so allergic to the other side that we can’t even tolerate them one bit...

    Peterson, Christianity, System don’t really fit the liberal ideology very well, that’s why you hate them. Of course I also understand that me harping on them can also be quite annoying... so I’ll try to behave.
    Last edited by Crazed_Insanity; December 31st, 2018 at 09:41 PM.

  2. #22
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    If there's one thing I know about you, it's that you love a simple solution to a complex problem. It's why you say that I "hate them" when it comes to the System, Christianity, and Peterson. It's an easy categorization that then doesn't require you to have any nuance. It doesn't require you to think about me, or empathize in any way. I hate them because I'm extreme. Simple, easy, there can't be any other reason than simple, pure, easily understood hate. Wipe hands on pants, done.

    It might also be why, no matter how many times I try to explain the positives and negatives I see on both sides, you seem to hyper-focus on one side of it. To be fair, you don't do it immediately. You're usually pretty good in the first day or two after, but give it a week and the original opinion settles back in like a cat on a heated blanket.

    I don't hate them. I have my problems with them. Some big, some small. Bigger problems with some, smaller with others. I don't "hate" any of them. Do I think some of them are cons? Sure. Do I think of any of them as pathetic? Absolutely. Do I get incredibly annoyed that you continually ascribe emotions or thoughts to me that I've never expressed? 100%.

    I'm glad you find him useful. I really am. I hope it helps you feel more confident, more able to handle the world around you, and more in control of your own life. I feel cautious when you go into the "I'm feeling sad" thread as I think he's a con man who preys on people at their weakest moments, and I don't think that's an appropriate time to do that. I feel the same way about the way Scientologists try to grab people at their low points.

    I don't think you're at your weakest moment and I want you to do what you do. Have at it.

    I'm also not beholden to start watching his videos or reading articles because you want me to agree with you. I feel confident that my values are not his and that a number of his values I find to be unpleasant at best. You might notice I haven't posted counter articles, because you also don't have that obligation. Again - I don't give a fuck if you like him, and I'm sure as shit not going to start going on a quest to find out why you do because I don't want to and I don't feel like it. I would say I don't care, but for some ungodly reason I find myself incredibly annoyingly compelled to get this through to you. I don't know why I do...I don't know if it's a frustration with you that you just seem to be unable to let shit go, or a frustration with myself for not being able to let shit go when you can't let shit go. I don't know if it's that I feel like you deliberately mischaracterize what I say in a way that goads me on, or if you're legitimately, repeatedly confused and that I have this faint glimmer of hope that you might actually just understand that no, we don't all have to agree with you.

    At least in this thread, I figure the people who don't enjoy seeing us yell directly past each other don't have to participate (hence why I haven't been putting spoiler tags quotes).

    At any rate, Happy New Year. One of my resolutions is to not feel the need to correct you even when you say patently false things about me or my motivations, as I'm learning I'll never actually get through to you on that. It's also to not continually fall for your goading into me answering, so I'm hoping this is my last reply in this thread, and that I learn to just let your responses go as I also know you are all about getting the last word much like me, and I hope to be better about that in 2019. Anybody else in this thread, feel free to police me on that.
    Last edited by Tom Servo; December 31st, 2018 at 10:51 PM.

  3. #23
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    Yeah, we’re just not getting thru to each other for some reason, yet we still try...

    Anyway, happy new year dude!

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crazed_Insanity View Post
    Yeah, we’re just not getting thru to each other for some reason, yet we still try...

    Anyway, happy new year dude!
    A happy new year to you as well. Here's to next year being smoother than the last one.

  5. #25
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    Okay, I’m gonna try to make things smoother by focusing only on my understanding of Jordan B Peterson( JBP) for now. I know not everyone will agree and not everyone will care, but I do hope for some misunderstanding to be cleared up for those who care or interested enough to read this post...

    So I’ll start with the idea of post modernism. I’ve personally never even heard of the term prior to knowing JPB. Is this some sort of BS made up by the far right? Quite possibly. But I still wanted to know what the heck it really is. Reading about it on Wikipedia only confused me further because it covers a broad range of topics and none seems threatening. Anyway, so according to JBP, post modernists are basically the leftists, after failed attempts in Russia and China using movements to rile up the poor against the rich, now trying it again with similar movements by riling up the oppressed against the oppressors.

    Given the rise of BLM and the me too movement..., one can clearly see this ‘conspiracy’ happening right in front of our eyes. If it weren’t for what happened in Soviet Union and China, I totally wouldn’t buy into JBP’s concern. However, since history has shown us how extreme socialism could go wrong, I just don’t think JBP is completely baseless.

    Like I said before, conservatism to the extreme will give you Hitler. These anxious authoritarians will almost always end up blaming a group of folks and then end up with some sort of ethnic cleansing... so it’s much easier to see if a conservative has crossed the line. On the other hand, liberalism to the extreme will be much harder to find such clear line until it’s too late. Why? Because anxious leftists movements just seems and sounds very righteous at first. Why should we care about the filthy rich? Who doesn’t love Robin Hood? Similarly, clearly African Americans were brought here against their will and totally mistreated. Likewise women were not only oppressed but can also be sexually assaulted.

    Would you feel sorry for Warren Buffett or Bill Gates if their fortunes were taken and used to help the poor or used to fund universal healthcare? Would you feel sorry for Bill Cosby or Kevin Spacey for their sexual assaults? Would you feel sorry for the cop who shot an unarmed black man? I know I most certainly would not feel sorry for the filthy rich and these oppressors.

    But history has taught us that if these leftist movements continue on unchecked, things could degenerate very badly very quickly... as in USSR and China in the past.

    I don’t think JBP just wants to put women and minorities in their proper place. He just doesn’t believe that we need to put another group of folks down in order to feel empowered.

    There’s a reason why we developed our courts the way it is... we have statue of limitations and innocent until proven guilty. Bill Cosby, for sure we don’t have to feel bad about him, but I still feel uneasy with somebody like Al Franken. Yeah, it takes a brave woman to point a powerful man out and chances are she would never make false accusations..., but if we continue with such assumptions, are you sure all women won’t ever make false accusations and ruin an innocent man’s life just for her 15min of fame if it becomes fashionable to do so? Can we really be sure all accusers can only tell the truth and all accused must be guilty? I, for one, would not want the me too movement to keep going without proper due process.

    As for BLM, I think we ought to just try to treat each individual cases separately. We shouldn’t have to see all black men as criminals and likewise not see all blue lives as racists. Investigations need more transparency. Cops inadvertently killed somebody need to be put on probation and be retrained or just be fired if truly incompetent. Cops proven to be racists using unnecessary force need to be prosecuted fully and jailed.

    JBP is a proponent of individual and hates identity politics. We can improve police competence and race relations one case at a time! We can also empower women and minorities on individual basis without the need to putting down or resent all white men. We are always going to have hierarchies in our society just as not everyone can be F1 world champs, but we all need to play by the same fair rules..., or equal rights. Pushing for equal outcome so that all F1 teams are winners is a ridiculous proposition.

    JBP also claims that western Christian culture has so far been the best things that happened to mankind. Yes, it’s not perfect and subject to more fine tuning, but reality is that it has brought up standards of living for all in such societies. We all ought to show some gratitude and appreciation rather than be brainwashed by the academia that Christianity is backwards thinking and privileged white men need to be put in the their places... seriously, isn’t it quite amazing that pretty much all prestigious western universities were started by Christians, but over time, how many university grads actually appreciate Jesus Christ let alone believe in him? What do you think is happening? Kids all of a sudden just gotten more enlightened or perhaps brain washed by something else? Even if the Bible is a complete fiction and success of western cultures were just pure luck, is it necessary to be that ashamed of your roots?

    Anyway, I personally believe one way to truly make US great again is to have the left and right work together and bring out the best of both sides. Of course our current polarization is okay too... at least we’re keeping each other from becoming the next Hitler or Stalin...

    I still think JBP knows what he’s talking about and is trying hard to save those crazy conservatives from becoming racists, alt right. Of course, you are free to disagree with me, but hope you now have a better understanding of what JBP is really trying to do. Of course I also understand that I could be wrong about JBP and Jesus Christ too. Only thing for sure is that we’re not really sure about anything! So we end up picking up beliefs that suit us the best. Whatever belief you choose, let’s at least try to improve ourselves and improve this world for all!
    Last edited by Crazed_Insanity; January 3rd, 2019 at 09:20 AM.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crazed_Insanity View Post
    There’s a reason why we developed our courts the way it is... we have statue of limitations and innocent until proven guilty. Bill Cosby, for sure we don’t have to feel bad about him, but I still feel uneasy with somebody like Al Franken. Yeah, it takes a brave woman to point a powerful man out and chances are she would never make false accusations..., but if we continue with such assumptions, are you sure all women won’t ever make false accusations and ruin an innocent man’s life just for her 15min of fame if it becomes fashionable to do so? Can we really be sure all accusers can only tell the truth and all accused must be guilty? I, for one, would not want the me too movement to keep going without proper due process.

    As for BLM, I think we ought to just try to treat each individual cases separately. We shouldn’t have to see all black men as criminals and likewise not see all blue lives as racists. Investigations need more transparency. Cops inadvertently killed somebody need to be put on probation and be retrained or just be fired if truly incompetent. Cops proven to be racists using unnecessary force need to be prosecuted fully and jailed.

    JBP is a proponent of individual and hates identity politics. We can improve police competence and race relations one case at a time! We can also empower women and minorities on individual basis without the need to putting down or resent all white men. We are always going to have hierarchies in our society just as not everyone can be F1 world champs, but we all need to play by the same fair rules..., or equal rights. Pushing for equal outcome so that all F1 teams are winners is a ridiculous proposition.
    Its good that we are all treated as individuals and especially if you commit a crime that you are punished without blaming a whole group (ie all men are sexual predators, all black men are criminals)

    However we are also products of our society and many of these issues come down to how our society as a group functions. We have let racism and sexual harassment flourish. It has become widespread and ignored, covered up or even encouraged.

    So yes we should let the justice system treat these crimes, but that is possibly only treating the symptoms not the actual cause. We can have a much better long term outcome if we also try to change society and its attitudes to these issues.

    Thats where I see people like Peterson as holding us back. Saying "too PC" and "post modern lefties" is just a way of saying he doesnt want society to change because he thinks its fine. Which is hard to accept when he is amongst the most privileged. Its easy to say "there is no problem" when you are not the one being harassed for "calling mum while black".

    From what little Ive seen, he does have some good points. But he also has some batshit crazy stuff as well.
    He does seem to be the voice of a lot of people who are feeling that shifts in society are hurting them, when to most of us these shifts are merely making things better, fairer and more inclusive. We dont need to "push white males down" to do it, but we also dont need to prop them up.
    And individual responsibility can still be important while we also try to improve social issues.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dicknose View Post
    Its good that we are all treated as individuals and especially if you commit a crime that you are punished without blaming a whole group (ie all men are sexual predators, all black men are criminals)
    Yes. I think this is something both sides can all agree on. We could have partisan judges and jurors, but the process itself is very non-partisan.

    However we are also products of our society and many of these issues come down to how our society as a group functions. We have let racism and sexual harassment flourish. It has become widespread and ignored, covered up or even encouraged.
    I'm not sure if these problems are really the product of western christian culture alone though. This is a pretty universal problem for all past cultures, no? In China, we all have the same color hair and skin, yet we can have contemptuous stereotypes for different chinese at different geographical regions. People tend to only like people of their own kind. Women also were poorly treated in all past and current cultures from Asia, India, Middle East... in fact, women of the west are probably more 'privileged' compared to other cultures. I think this is probably true even when the west still mostly christianized. Of course there were tribes or societies with women in power, but those were rare. Women were disadvantaged... either by God's design or by Mother Nature guidance during evolution. Women are on the average physically weaker, have monthly periods to deal with and if even a woman were to forcibly rape a man... she's the one end up getting pregnant. None of these things will help woman to climb up the social power ladder. It's just an unfair race for women on a biological level, not just white men being assholes using the bible as excuse to oppress them.

    So yes we should let the justice system treat these crimes, but that is possibly only treating the symptoms not the actual cause. We can have a much better long term outcome if we also try to change society and its attitudes to these issues.
    True. However we need to fix the foundations, individual level, first. BLM started probably because people thought the courts and police departments were being unjust! It's bad enough to see your son/brother accidentally killed already..., but to see the officer easily getting off scott free won't be easy for anyone to swallow. We have a fair process, but courts could still be corrupted. This has to be fixed 1st. When things are more transparent and just, everything else will be more manageable.

    Thats where I see people like Peterson as holding us back. Saying "too PC" and "post modern lefties" is just a way of saying he doesnt want society to change because he thinks its fine. Which is hard to accept when he is amongst the most privileged. Its easy to say "there is no problem" when you are not the one being harassed for "calling mum while black".
    I don't believe he ever said nor he is trying to fight against progress. He is well aware our current culture isn't perfect. He's only saying that western culture has been the best so far. When you are already winning championships, you shouldn't have to resort to radical changes. History has proven how team Hitler and team Stalin failed miserably. We just need to make sure we don't head in those directions again. For a championship winning team to stay on top and continue to make progress, small tweaks ought to be enough. Of course if a better team comes along to beat you, then you'll have to try to copy what's working so well for them...

    From what little Ive seen, he does have some good points. But he also has some batshit crazy stuff as well.
    He does seem to be the voice of a lot of people who are feeling that shifts in society are hurting them, when to most of us these shifts are merely making things better, fairer and more inclusive. We dont need to "push white males down" to do it, but we also dont need to prop them up.
    And individual responsibility can still be important while we also try to improve social issues.
    You and tigeraid both mentioned batshit, I really want to know specifically what you guys meant. I'm assuming it's JBP's concern about postmodernists? To be fair, JBP's concern could be nothing... because when USSR and China fell, most of the population were not all that educated. Nowadays, people are more educated... so that might prevent socialism from failing so miserably again? Scandinavian nations are probably now the model secularized socialized nations today..., but remember that they still sit on a foundation laid by traditional western culture. Will they bloom further in the future? If so, I'd feel safer heading toward their direction. However, if they stagnate culturally, financially and technically or just no longer as innovative as before... then maybe we shouldn't copy them. Only time will tell if JBP's concern is real I suppose. Anyway, I just don't think JBP's concern is completely baseless.

    Now, what is wrong with being the voice of those who are feeling hurt by society's change? What are social justice warriors fighting for? For hurt people, right? You are okay with SJW because they're fighting for leftie issues, but shouldn't we still care about righties getting hurt?

    I also don't believe JBP is propping up specifically white men, maybe all men. Telling them to stand up straight. Clean you room. Get your shit together. Know your place and act like a fucking man by being as good a person you can based on love and truth. Also be a good son, if married, good husband and if have kids, good father. If you got your shit together, then maybe you can utilize your skillz to help make your neighborhood better... eventually a better world. Who is a good role model for us men? Jesus Christ of course! But feel free to find a good role model for yourself. JBP knows the bible very well and believes people should attend church, but he himself doesn't go to church... so I think he's a hypocrite that way. Nevertheless, his spoken words resonate with me as true. I know some of his words resonate as batshit to you guys and most lefties, but I honestly don’t understand why.

    Is it bad to prop up men that way? Perhaps to feminists, but to mothers, wives, daughters world wide, I’m pretty sure those women would appreciate JBPs efforts.
    Last edited by Crazed_Insanity; January 4th, 2019 at 11:09 AM.

  8. #28
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    I'm really quite impressed by JBP's thorough thought process, take this controversial topic for example:



    I think most political debates are about superficial symptoms. How the hell did we get ourselves into this dilemma? Get rid of this baby or keep this baby? Hillary or Trump? It's almost pointless and meaningless to continue to fight about it once the problem has snowballed to such levels...

    Be a fucking man, but don't get somebody you don't love pregnant!

    On an individual level, if we all try to be the best we can be based on love and truth, picking a best candidate out of a bunch of good candidates would be easy.

    However, unfortunately there are no easy fixes and it all starts at the individual level... you and me. When we have healthier roots, we can all flourish better.
    Last edited by Crazed_Insanity; January 4th, 2019 at 12:22 PM.

  9. #29
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    I don’t get why people need to attach themselves to a crackpot in order to find out how to be good.

    Same goes for religion, I guess.

  10. #30
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    I really don't think JBP is trying to get people to get attached to him. He wants people, on an individual level, to be able to make a stand for self by staying as loving and as truthful as possible! Also by taking up as much responsibilities as possible...

    Of course, hopefully my life's journey GPS or navigation system isn't really based on crackpot or batshit, otherwise for sure I'll get real lost.

    You like to fly blind, good luck to ya. When you are in the middle of open sea of life, how do you know which direction is Good? Are you that sure of yourself?

    And how do you detect crackpots and batshit? Based on what? Just by smell?
    Last edited by Crazed_Insanity; January 4th, 2019 at 12:52 PM.

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