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Thread: History

  1. #51
    High Plains Luddite George's Avatar
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    Rather than recommending a podcast or book (until the next time I do), I'd like to pose an historical question and see what this learned assembly has to say.

    To be honest, I can't think of many events or movements that fit into what I'm about to ask, yet I'm certain history is full of examples. Kindly educate me and each other and share your thoughts if you will.

    In the USA today, many Trump supporters are suspicious, at best, of Covid-19 vaccinations. I'm sure those who care have seen the similarities between 2020 election result maps and the current states' vaccination percentages.

    What are some other examples of political leaders successfully influencing their supporters to put themselves and others at risk by refusing to accept "mainstream" scientific theory?

    I realize "at risk" and "mainstream" are subjective. Some might say getting the vaccination is putting yourself at risk. Okay. And if you want to cite monarchs or dictators or heads of religions instead of "freely elected" leaders, that's cool too. Interpret the question as you will.
    Last edited by George; July 15th, 2021 at 01:20 PM.

  2. #52
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    What's so weird about it to me is that it doesn't actually follow a lot of the traditional "leader pushing this thing" plan. Trump famously brags that he is the whole reason the vaccines exist, and endlessly claims that the liberals are pretending like no vaccines existed until Biden was president (I have never seen this claim, and it's pretty common knowledge that the first non-trial doses were administered in late 2020). It more seems to just come from this "if the libs do it, it must be the wrong thing" mentality that's been sown.

    I do know there was a similar level of anti science backlash around the Spanish flu a good century ago, but I don't know how aligned that was with specific politics/political parties, or if it was to the extent that we have it now.

  3. #53
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    Your question prompted me to do some googling and found this article: https://theweek.com/articles/905896/...-1918-pandemic

    Really, there is absolutely nothing remotely as similar to this year as the 1920 election.

    What happened? Republican Warren Harding, campaigning on a "return to normalcy" (sound familiar?) won more than 60 percent of the vote and a towering majority in the Electoral College. Republicans added massively to narrow majorities in both chambers of Congress. It was a thorough repudiation of nominee James Cox and the Democratic Party. Republicans would go on to preside over the Roaring Twenties, winning the next three presidential elections and maintaining unified control of Congress until 1931.
    So hopefully during the next roaring 20's, dems will finally be able to wrestle back some control from republicans?

    Anyway, back to your original question... yeah I think it's really difficult to answer. What is 'mainstream'?

    Round earth took a while to become mainstream. Theory of relativity as well... mainstream could be wrong.

    However, yeah, there are plenty of examples of political leaders influencing their supporters I suppose. I think they are mostly authoritarian regimes, right? Even for Trump, he's more like that as well. He does aspire to want to be a dictator, right?

    However 2, I have to also question whether if it's really these political leaders influencing the people... or perhaps these leaders are just very natural at feeding off of the energies and the will of the people.

    Trump did NOT create the Trump supporters. Trump only got there because of his supporters. He said things they want to hear!

    Likewise for Hitler, Mao...

    It'll be difficult to manipulate or influence people if those people have no weaknesses for you to exploit in the 1st place.

    When people are hurting, whether physically or emotionally, they no longer care about reasons or science or truth.
    Last edited by Crazed_Insanity; July 15th, 2021 at 03:13 PM.

  4. #54
    High Plains Luddite George's Avatar
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    ^ I guess we could include Hitler. He was an elected leader who convinced some of his followers that they were a "master race". They then caused themselves and their country harm and they certainly harmed others on a scale seldom seen in history.

    I was thinking more along the lines of health-related things, but let the conversation go where it will (if it goes anywhere).

    While typing this, I just thought of the Smokers in the movie Waterworld. Maybe The Deacon (I had to look up Dennis Hopper's character name) qualifies for this list, if we can include fictional characters.

    Quote Originally Posted by Crazed_Insanity
    When people are hurting, whether physically or emotionally, they no longer care about reasons or science or truth.
    Good point. I'd add economically to the list, also.
    Last edited by George; July 16th, 2021 at 09:42 AM.

  5. #55
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    Lack of money can definitely hurt!

    If we were to stay on health issues... and let's just stick with the US and 'recent' history...

    I suppose our war on drugs and preaching abstinence over birth control certainly didn't help much and actually made problems worse. We should've learned our lessons during the prohibitions. Banning alcohol is a good idea in theory... trying to help alcoholics..., but in the end, our problems ended up worse. For a 'Christian' nation, it's amazing that America still believe problems could be ban away. If that's true, Jewish Old Testament laws would be sufficient and there'd be no need for the New Testament Jesus to come.

    Anyway, bottomline is that we shouldn't go too extreme either way... let people practice making their own choices and be responsible for their own choices. I suppose same should go with the masks and vaccines. Help people realize the different consequences of their choices and let them learn 1st hand. Some people just need to go thru with it in order to learn.

    How can we be careful of never end up with leaders like Hitler or Mao in the future? Well, not until the day we no longer have poor and angry voters around. However, I'm sure that will never happen on earth. There will always be people like Hitler and Mao who are master manipulatists... Trump is really not nearly as good in comparison. Or perhaps US still has sufficient sensible folks around? I really think Covid screwed Trump up. He'll most likely win reelection if it weren't for Covid... Whatever the reason for his lost, at least this will give us some hope. 4 more years of Trump may be great for our stock market, but our nation probably will be further weakened... who knows, he just might end up becoming a real dictator!
    Last edited by Crazed_Insanity; July 16th, 2021 at 10:03 AM.

  6. #56
    High Plains Luddite George's Avatar
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    ...not until the day we no longer have poor and angry voters around. However, I'm sure that will never happen on earth.
    Never. Some humans will always find a way to establish dominance over other humans.

    Speaking of history and some humans dominating other humans, for the last few days I've been listening to the audiobook The Autobiography of Malcolm X as told to Alex Haley. It is read by (although I'd say it is performed by) Lawrence Fishburne. Fishburne is outstanding, but more importantly, it is one hell of a story and a history lesson that I'll wager most white folks like me haven't had explained to them in this way.
    Last edited by George; July 16th, 2021 at 10:11 AM.

  7. #57
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    That's a great book, and I bet that Fishburne is great
    -Formerly Stabulator

  8. #58
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    Morpheus explaining the Histrix to Geo? How cool is that!

  9. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by George View Post
    What are some other examples of political leaders successfully influencing their supporters to put themselves and others at risk by refusing to accept "mainstream" scientific theory?
    Did you ever hear about the time San Fransisco got the plague in the 20th Century? And it's coverup? Probably not, but this youtube video did a fantastically researched report on it (and even makes direct parallels to the event you are referring to, George.)


  10. #60
    High Plains Luddite George's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JSGeneral View Post
    ...and even makes direct parallels to the event you are referring to, George.
    Wow. What a story. It surely does parallel current events.

    Thanks for posting, JSG. I saw it a couple days ago but waited until I had time to watch it all without rushing through it.

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