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Thread: F1 2020

  1. #561
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    Yes, many drivers would have more than his 8 wins with that team. You say that not many wins are possible with Mercedes dominance, ok, I'll give you that. So you don't think that Red Bull have given him a car that can compete for pole positions? He has a meager 2 from 82 starts.

    Nico Rosberg in the 39 races of the 2012 and 2013 seasons was able to get 3 wins and 4 poles.

    You could say that Red Bull and Ferrari were too dominant in those years, so another measure to gauge driver performance could be fastest lap in the race. Mercedes bagged 6 out of those 39 FLs (Rosberg with four, Lewis and Schumacher with one each), that's a 0.153 success rate; in the 82 races that Max has raced for RBR, the team has achieved 16 FLs for a .195 avg. That's 7 FLs for him, 8 for Danny Ric and 1 for Gasly.

    Point being? Above average driver in a fast car. Lucky to be driving for a team that was able to salvage a podium with 20 seconds to spare.
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  2. #562
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    Stats are one thing, but fairest way to gauge is comparing teamates.

    Exactly how many wins did Albon/Gasly got?

    How many more wins did Ricciardo get?

    Ricciardo was the one who managed to clearly whipped Vettel's ass, a multi-champ.

    I think it's clear Max > Ricciardo > Vettel.

    Whether if Max is > Hamilton, that's harder to figure out. My feeling is that for sure Max is better than Rosberg, but not sure if he can really beat Hamilton in the same car. However, considering their age difference, it's only a matter of time for younger max to surpass Lewis... Just as Schumacher did with Senna.

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  4. #564
    Severed Member JoeW's Avatar
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    Hey it’s fine. Most people here love to hate him which made it all the more fun to poke at your Schaden remark before RB got the car fixed.

  5. #565
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crazed_Insanity View Post
    Stats are one thing, but fairest way to gauge is comparing teamates.
    I thought equal markers were the best way to compare differents.

    Quote Originally Posted by Crazed_Insanity View Post
    I think it's clear Max > Ricciardo > Vettel.
    As clear as a shadow projected on a cave.
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  6. #566
    Severed Member JoeW's Avatar
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    Honestly the way Mercedes has dominated this era of F1 is unprecedented. Even the announcers said over the weekend they would love to see Max vs Lewis in equal equipment. They recognize the “above average” talent just like you do

    Since this will never happen and until someone makes a car comparable to Merc we will continue to see all the other drivers win % stats look like shit.

    Next season will be more of the same. Maybe the new regs will mix up the order a bit...I hope so but we’ll see.

    I can’t say what he’s going to do in the future but as my favorite driver I can hope. But I can say he is faster than any team mate he has had. I looked up all the Ric/Ver stats awhile ago and Max outscored Ric when both cars finished the race. He was way faster than Gasly and is way faster than Albon.

    We’ll see what the future brings. I’m sure you will be eager for more Schaden moments to belittle the barely above average Verstappen. I’ll be here so you have an audience who cares

  7. #567
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    I just don't think Verstappen is all that he's made to be. His modest achievements have been overly amplified by the F1 official broadcast team in English. Announcers in other languages just don't pay as much attention to him as Sky does. The schadenfreude came because in the preview show he was being hailed as a "master of the rain", it was so funny to have him do what is basically a rookie mistake on a greasy track.

    I don't like Hamilton's sporting persona at all, but, he is on another level; it's impossible not to have massive respect for what he is doing. Plus, to my point of view, his clinch rating has been thru the roof in the last three seasons. Any driver in the top 4 teams at the moment (that would be Mercedes, Red Bull, McLaren and Racing Point) has what it takes to win races. I have no doubt in my mind that Stroll could be winning races if his car was hitting 50% effectiveness. The thing with F1 is that great drivers do not hit below his car's capabilities, that's something Perez and Norris, for example, are very good at, they're opportunistic and rarely leave anything on the table. Of those eight drivers, I can only see Perez and Albon not being as fast as his teammate on one-lap pace, but in terms of consistency, they can hit their target times 95% of the time, maybe a tad lower for Stroll. What sets Hamilton apart from them and makes him and all-time great is his ability to raise the level of competence when it's most needed.

    Remember that he was trailing Bottas before the Hungarian GP, so he went and put up a scorching qualifying and a Hat-trick during the race. In objective terms, it's the same 11 points he needed to take the championship lead; on the subjective, it's the authority with which he takes it that makes the difference. Rosberg knew that, that's why he was able to almost win it from him in 2015 and finally clinch the title in 2016. And that's something that Rosberg began to practice in 12-13, when Vettel was winning everything with his Red Bull, he made sure he made 15% effectiveness of his car count. Verstappen doesn't have it. His RB is not winning the 20% of races (or whereabouts) he should. He tangles with Ocon, goes wheel-to-wheel with his teammate in a street circuit. Spectacular?, sure. Effective? not enough.
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  8. #568
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    On and before I forget, Hamilton in his McLaren days was very good, but not great. In points scored, I don't remember if he beat Button in their three years together or not, but subjectively they were comparable. It wasn't until he was forced to compete with another very good driver in 2015 that he pushed himself to be great.
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  9. #569
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    I think the tangles are essentially psychological head games against other drivers.

    Senna does that a lot to other racers to exert his dominance. Michael Andretti was on the receiving end of it a lot..., hence in the end he just packed up and went back to America.

    Vettel packed up because of Ricciardo. Ricciardo packed up and left for a much slower team because he really believes in Renault?

    At this point, you could put JV in the Mercedes and win races. IMHO, Max at the moment is like Senna driving the less competitive Mclaren against the mighty Williams...

    Anyway, Hamilton’s performance against Bottas is truly amazing. The gap between them is definitely making Bottas look bad... it’s like putting senna in the almighty Williams! And it is pretty impressive to also see another senna driving an inferior Mclaren Honda in 2nd place!

    I just think we’re blessed to have so many talented drivers... too bad Mercedes is doing such an awesome job to ruin the show!

  10. #570
    Severed Member JoeW's Avatar
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    I have no qualms with Lewis. But he is obviously faster than Bottas consistently. Sure he has the numbers but he has also had the car. So is he a good driver? Sure. Is he the greatest driver ever? The numbers are adding up to yes but that doesn’t mean it’s true. Is the Mercedes dominant because of Lewis or vice versa? If you take Lewis out of the equation then you’ve got a Rosberg multi champion, Vettel adds a couple of titles with Ferrari and Bottas multi champion.

    So we know Lewis performs consistently well in the best and most reliable car. Other than that all we know is he starts every weekend with a performance advantage that no one else has (other than his team mate). And he is usually better than his teammates.

    So these championships are his to lose. And he is very consistently a non loser.
    Last edited by JoeW; July 20th, 2020 at 07:22 PM.

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