Pandemic Thread (CoronaVirus etc.)

[Tom Servo]

Billi - you keep using these facts as premises for your posts. In this case, the way it came across to me was that you were using the share of infections that are occurring in kids as evidence that kids should not be going back to school. I responded that I didn't think it was evidence of that because the stat, on its own, means nothing. I thought, by posting it on a discussion forum, you were inviting a discussion on that.

I don't understand why I can't point that out without then being on the hook to make your life decisions for you. I would normally find it helpful if someone helped me find a flaw in my reasoning, and would not then demand that they solve all my other problems as well. If you don't feel safe sending your kids back to school until they're vaccinated, more power to you.

It's almost like you post something like "All Mazdas have a feature where, if you don't sacrifice a chicken to them at least once a month, a bunch of whirling knives come out of the steering wheel and lacerate your eyeballs. And they think I should buy a Mazda!" and someone says "Umm...I don't think that's true about the knives and the chickens" and your response is "Well, do you just think that rotary engines are the best engines ever made?!? DEBATE ME, YOU COWARD!!"

[Crazed_Insanity]

I’m not saying that you can’t point out the errors of my claims. In fact, I agreed with you on what you pointed out. Yes, the article does not fully agree with me, you are right. Similarly, yeah cases are low now, you are also right. I’m not saying you are wrong. Just saying that part of the discussion should be over, right? What else is there to discuss?

So now, can we discuss about my concerns now? If your not interested in discussing about my concerns, that’s fine too, just let me vent about my concerns and let it drop. If you could fact check my vents and then help me to stop worry about things, that'd be ideal. However, I don't think you helped me, right? You just wanted to point out my errors... and I have acknowledged my errors, right? However, my main concerns remain unresolved... that's why I can't stop.

Facts exist, I have to start some where. Further, facts are facts! Maybe you can discuss about alternative facts? But usually, what’s there to discuss about facts? It is what it is, right?

At some point, we’re not going to have all the facts, but life goes on! What are we suppose to do then? That’s worthy of discussion imho.

I'm really interested to know next time when CDC say you don't need mask, would you listen?

When a 'democratic' governor says you don't need masks, would you listen?

If you do have kids, would you send them to school at this point?

Like I said, there are no right or wrong answers, I'd like to know what you would do, not just facts. I can google facts, I cannot google you.

Lastly, I'd like to know what I said that's analogous to sacrificing chickens? Just because the article didn't complain about the same thing I was complaining about, you see it as if I'm sacrificing chickens? Com'on. The key feature there, was that I'm glad to see others complain, that's all. CDC wasn't just fucked up by Trump, but perhaps the 'establishment' is influencing our scientists. (Businesses need to get going and kids need to get back to school so parents can get to work...) And let's just forget about who has the power to influence WHO...

I can be over the top sometimes, but please don't add anymore things on top!

[Tom Servo]

Yes, but then you start going into the not trusting the CDC and WHO stuff and when I said "I can't answer that question for you", you keep asking me to do so and later say that I can't just tell you that I don't know.

I can. I don't know.

I also know where this leads. The goalposts of what was supposed to be a simple conversation have already moved about halfway down the field and will be in the next county if I continue to engage.

So, here we go. I think that stat says nothing and should not be part of your decision making process when it comes to whether your kids go back to school. I do not know enough about how covid affects kids to make the call about whether I would consider it safe enough. If the adults in the house aren't vaccinated, then I would say the kids should not go to school. That is the point where I would assume the discussion would be over, at least as far as I'm concerned.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Maybe my goal was just unclearly posted, that's why you guys always think I'm moving goal posts?

Anyway, I like this: "If the adults in the house aren't vaccinated, then I would say the kids should not go to school. "

I'm concerned about possible interactions between my kid and other kids with their parents unvaccinated. So in order to be safe, I don't want to accidentally expose my kid that way. So we are in some agreement that risks exist for kids, right? Knowing that half of our population are against vaccines, and unavailable kids' vaccines, it's probably not a good idea to push to reopen schools? Of course if trends around the world show continual declining cases, then of course I'll be willing to change my mind.

We can't be like Lt. Data, just because we have insufficient stats, then we can't make a decision. Capt. Picard/Kirk often times have to make decisions without all the info they need at the time. When leadership makes the wrong decisions, a lot of people will suffer.

Risking financial collapse or healthcare system collapse? Yeah, I don't know the right answers either... I don't envy those currently in leadership positions for sure. However, for my household, I have to decide what's best for us... based on incomplete facts. Just to be clear, this is probably the main goal that I want to discuss. I don't really want to dismantle WHO or CDC. I just find their leaderships questionable. When in such doubt, what should I do? What should we do? That's open for discussions.

[neanderthal]

Wouldn't that be expected somewhat, though? As older people are vaccinated they'll be less of a percentage of the new covid cases, so a greater portion of them will come from a group that is universally unvaccinated.

A few months ago, if children were 5% of our new cases in LA county, that'd be 1,000 children a day, now 25% would be less than 100 a day.

Your problem was bringing common sense into the equation.
What you said made immediate sense to me. I suppose raw numbers (5000 new infections this week vs 8000 last week) would have made it clearer but it shouldn't need to be spelled out.

<edit>Not that it's a problem, presenting information in a common sense, logical way. That's not the problem. The recipient and his argumentative, try- to- be- clever, cockamanie ways is the problem

[Crazed_Insanity]

This is a long article about possible origin of this virus. I'll just leave it here without any commentary for those who might be interested.

https://science.thewire.in/the-scien...ple-or-nature/

[Crazed_Insanity]

Your problem was bringing common sense into the equation.
What you said made immediate sense to me. I suppose raw numbers (5000 new infections this week vs 8000 last week) would have made it clearer but it shouldn't need to be spelled out.

<edit>Not that it's a problem, presenting information in a common sense, logical way. That's not the problem. The recipient and his argumentative, try- to- be- clever, cockamanie ways is the problem

Again, I never said Swervo made no sense. I acknowledged that to him. But that's not the "goal" I was aiming for, so I felt like Swervo was only trying derail my path to my intended goal... Yes, Swervo, you've presented correct facts, but what about this concern that I have? How do we address that? Do you have more facts that could ease my concerns? Anyway, I think Swervo has already answered the best he can to me.

Here's is what I'm interested in Neanderthal, if you care to answer: So do you believe it makes no sense for me to defy Biden's order to NOT send my kid back to school? I should have nothing to be afraid of? What makes you so confident that kids will be safe in school? What are my irrational fears for unnecessarily keeping my kid at home?

Look, I don't mind being pointed out that I'm wrong or makes no sense or stupid or whatever, I have no problems admitting that I'm wrong at times, but besides being critical, can you guys also come up with more constructive criticisms? It's like you just lump me with Trump supporters. "You guys are deplorably wrong... just fuck off! Go back to your bubble and let us remain in ours."

How will our country ever be able to reunite with such attitudes?

Of course conservatives like roofer have similar issues, but I'm slowly working on him thru FB...

[2ndMoparMan]

Again, I never said Swervo made no sense. I acknowledged that to him. But that's not the "goal" I was aiming for, so I felt like Swervo was only trying derail my path to my intended goal... Yes, Swervo, you've presented correct facts, but what about this concern that I have? How do we address that? Do you have more facts that could ease my concerns?

Here's is what I'm interested in, if you care to answer: So do you believe it makes no sense for me to defy Biden's order to NOT send my kid back to school? I should have nothing to be afraid of? What makes you so confident that kids will be safe in school? What are my irrational fears for unnecessarily keeping my kid at home?

Look, I don't mind being pointed out that I'm wrong or makes no sense or stupid or whatever, I have no problems admitting that I'm wrong at times, but besides being critical, can you guys also come up with more constructive criticisms? It's like you just lump me with Trump supporters. "You guys are deplorably wrong... just fuck off! Go back to your bubble and let us remain in ours."

How will our country ever be able to reunite with such attitudes?

Of course conservatives like roofer have similar issues, but I'm slowly working on him thru FB...

Think that's a lost cause.

[Crazed_Insanity]

You talking about roofer?

Anyway, I consider him a friend... that's cause enough. If he wishes to unfriend me, then I can give up I guess.

[Tom Servo]

I wasn't trying to derail you. Just like last time, I ask you go back and re-read what I wrote. It wasn't intended as a criticism, we were literally just *discussing something*. I wasn't calling you "deplorably wrong."

You did not come across as just wanting to get people's opinions about sending their kids to school. You're not even doing so now. "So do you believe it makes no sense for me to defy Biden's order to NOT send my kid back to school? I should have nothing to be afraid of?", etc, etc. Despite that sentence I think saying the opposite of what you mean (is Biden's order to not send your kid back?), that's not saying "I have my misgivings and want your thoughts", it's an adversarial stance.

And when I tried to say "I don't know the right answer", you literally told me I can't do that. Not to go back to your love of black & white, but the answer here is probably "it depends." Are your kids overall healthy? What's the current covid status in their school? Are their teachers all vaccinated? Are you vaccinated? Do you have any comorbidities that might make it more dangerous for you or your family if your kids go to school and become asymptomatic carriers? At what point do you think the rewards outweigh the risks?

You already do that just by virtue of having them go to school at all. They could get hit by a car on the way to or from school.

Someone pointing out a potential flaw in your reasoning is not lumping you in with Trump supporters.