Billi vs the World

[Tom Servo]

A while back I mentioned that you have this penchant for arguing things that nobody else has said. When did I say that people on the left are incapable of being bullies? I certainly don't remember saying that. If I did, I was incorrect - of course I believe you can have bullies on all sides.

That said, when it comes to gender, I will defer to people who know differently about their own gender. Similar to sexuality - I do not find men attractive and I don't know how one could. Yet, many men I know do find men attractive. My personal experience doesn't discount theirs. Why would gender be different? As I previously mentioned, I have a friend who came out as trans. He was Jake, now she is Jolie. She did it fearing that she might lose her job, that her coworkers and friends might reject her, and that it might destroy her home life. It was clearly a part of who she is at her core, it wasn't something she just did on a whim. Why would Peterson know better than someone who has gone through that?

In addition - the law change that Peterson is so bent out of shape about is Bill C-16. It is, and I quote:

The bill is intended to protect individuals from discrimination within the sphere of federal jurisdiction and from being the targets of hate propaganda, as a consequence of their gender identity or their gender expression. The bill adds "gender identity or expression" to the list of prohibited grounds of discrimination in the Canadian Human Rights Act and the list of characteristics of identifiable groups protected from hate propaganda in the Criminal Code. It also adds that evidence that an offence was motivated by bias, prejudice or hate based on a person's gender identity or expression constitutes an aggravating circumstance for a court to consider when imposing a criminal sentence.[6]

It wasn't even a new law. It just added gender identity to the list of already protected classes. It didn't create new penalties or requirements, it literally just added gender identity to other classes such as race and sexuality.

Jordan Peterson didn't object to this bill before when it was about other classes, a bill that has been in existence in Canada since 1985. He objected to this specifically because of gender identity. It is not a principled stance against government overreach. It is specific bigotry against a specific class of people.

[Crazed_Insanity]

My apologies for putting words into your mouth... again... It just felt like you think left can do no wrong and is always the victim to me.

Anyway, Peterson has issues with 'hate speech' bans as well..., but I think his only objection was that it'd be stupid to have laws dictating people to never say anything offensive. If we're no longer allowed to say anything offensive, then everyone will eventually sound like CEOs and politicians... using bunch of fancy inoffensive words in their speeches while telling us absolutely nothing of substance... However, he does understand some hate speech can be really bad... so he didn't object to that as vehemently because it's just so hard for everyone to draw the same line as to what's really hate speech...

He only has issues with gender pronouns because he felt compelled to speak in a certain way he disagree with thanks to this new amendment... It's this 'compulsion' which made him necessary to draw a line in the sand.

So okay, let's just say he misinterpreted or mischaracterized that amendment and using it as an opportunity to make his asshole truly shine...
The law was only intend to protect people from discrimination, nothing more. No compelled speech at all. That asshole simply made a huge fuss out of nothing.

I'm no legal expert, so I'll go along with that narrative, but based on what I've read and heard from Peterson, he just doesn't sound like an asshole to me. I can't agree with his strange diet and he obviously has his health issues, but whatever works for him I guess.

Now I do realize just because you think somebody is an asshole, doesn't mean you hate him or want to cancel him. You're only making a judgement on him based on this particular issue. That's totally fair. But do you believe that's the general consensus of the left?

Same goes for folks like Dave Chappelle and KR I think.

I don't really know what KR is good for... since he's just a kid, but Chappelle is hilarious and Peterson IMHO is just an amazing person in a lot of levels.

Anyway, to me, the danger of extreme liberal ideology is that they can hide behind the marginalized people and then use them as tools to justify bullying others. As I mentioned earlier, to me, PC is fake niceness, just as fake Christians' croc tear prayers. I don't like fake things, not even Christian fake things...

So I think YW's actually astutely pointed out this is pretty much all 'faith' based. Whether it's Jesus or Jordan, do you 'believe' what he's telling you? We are obviously seeing the same things, but perceiving them differently. Like you said, maybe I'm just too gullible? Or maybe I have homosexual tendencies and I just like assholes?

BTW, based on what you've read about what Jesus said, do you think he's an asshole too?

[Tom Servo]

But his compulsion is new based on a specific class. He didn't have the same objection before. He might have had it to some extent, but he took a stand when it came to gender issues and trans people.

I assume that you don't think he's an asshole. I think if you don't view him through a critical eye, he sounds eloquent and principled. I also think that under a small amount of scrutiny he turns out to be a bigoted jerk that is really good at sounding eloquent and principled.

I do not expect to change your mind. You like Jordan, I get that. I don't, and that's also unlikely to change. I personally think it's dangerous to try to push him as a cure of all ills for people here that might be struggling, as I think he's insidious.

This is going to sound dumb, but your next to last sentence struck a chord with me. Not all homosexual guys are into butts. Some are. Some straight guys are too. There's not actua a oflly an equality there.

I don't have much of an opinion on Jesus. My only real opinion is that very few people who claim to worship him follow in his example.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Jesus himself said it... he's not going to 'know' a lot of them self identified Christians... it is a very narrow gate to heaven. I hope I can make it...

Anyway, pushing or compelling anyone or anything for all people can be dangerous. For some, maybe masks could be harmful... plus I saw an article saying some had to go back to online schools not because of covid, but because some kid had lost proper social abilities and became too much of a trouble... so they had to go back to virtual for now... Vaccines too. Some people ARE allergic to it. Plus, if there really is something wrong with our vaccines and caused all of us to die, at least those anti-vaxxers will survive.

I'm definitely not smart nor eloquent enough to know all the answers or even ask the right questions... all I know is that something is wrong with our current culture. I sorely miss the days when this community was full of truly 'diverse' group of people. Don't get me wrong, I like you guys, including YW and Neanderthal too, but I just wish we could be even MORE diverse...

Also, percentage of republican assholes will probably be very high wearing your lenses, but my gullible lenses could be under-estimating all the GOP assholes? Best way is probably try to get to personally know your conservative neighbors around us rather than just assume they're assholes? Our political stances could very well be like our sexual orientations. Our tastes vary, but we are not really defined by these preferences? Try to overlook these difference and try to find what we have in common? Gran Turismo was the common theme that brought us together I guess. Once that common ground faded away, all we have left are our differences?

[Yw-slayer]

That's actually kinda fascinating, because my wife was raised Catholic and she has insisted that only Catholics are Christians, and that Protestants are Protestants. It's my understanding that if you follow a religion based on Christ, you're Christian.

In her case it definitely doesn't come from a hateful place (at least not with her, it likely did originally), it's just a categorization thing, like how you'd classify a tomato as a fruit rather than a vegetable.

I suppose the more radical factions of each side will try to claim ownership of the term to indicate that they are right. On the occasions I've encountered it in Protestants he zeal (almost religious, one might think) with which it is advanced is shocking, sad, and funny.

Of course, there are segments/factions within other religions who take a similar attitude toward other segments/factions.

[Crazed_Insanity]

When religious factions look the same as any other political factions , then it should be clear God is not there… for God is love. If God/love makes no difference to how people behave then what’s the point?

[Dicknose]

(shit... been busy and missed this for a few days. good to see its doing its job of keeping billi vs the world)

[Tom Servo]

Heh, it ultimately feels a little futile as Billi is world-class at digging his heels in, so most of the time when you're going back and forth with him it's in an attempt to make your point to onlookers rather than to each other. Still, glad to be able to go toe to toe without pissing too many people off.

[Dicknose]

But besides that, your definition of privilege is not what people are talking about when they talk about privilege.

Its also very hard to be aware of your own privilege, esp if most people around you have similar privilege.

Many people who scream "what privilege?" are unaware that just going around and not being hassled is a privilege that others dont have.

[Dicknose]

Call me an extremist if you want - he is using his transphobia as a way to grift off other hateful people to make a name for himself and make money. He is not a good person. He talks about people coming together in good faith to find the truth, but he is not doing that.

I see that with some people I know. It doesn't fit their narrow world view and it seems to be a personal affront to get them to be respectful to others. They them twist it like they are the victim because they have a right to be an arsehole.
Then there are those in the media who then leverage this to build a following.

Golden rule - you expect others to correctly use your name, your chosen pronouns (even if you argue you didn't chose them). But then they refuse the same basic civility to others.