Religion

[Crazed_Insanity]

Ha, made me chuckled near the end there Swervo! Yes I was upset, but setting an annoying punk like me straight definitely should NOT result in you landing in hell! Maybe God would actually reward you for helping to set me straight!

Anyway, criticizing my faults is totally understandable, but I really don’t understand your other position of not wanting to share your opinion of what’s better. Isn’t that the whole point of discussions?

You have a favorite way of cooking steak. There can be discussions of different methods of cooking, I can understand there’s no point bragging about your way, but please do share! Sure, I may not agree your way is better, but I just might end up adopting your way. Who knows until it’s out in the open and until I give it a try, right? Of course it’s also fine if it’s your secret recipe and not wanting to share. However, usually discussions involve exchange of ideas, right? Not just about criticizing my steak sucks?

Anyway, I also think you’re misunderstanding what following Christ is all about. We’re not asked to become lawyers of Gods laws and to strictly live according to those strict laws. That’s the Old Testament, Jewish way. I follow Jesus because he can take me to a whole new level! He offers me better alternatives in life, but of course I also have to choose to take it.

Anyway, I personally just think Bible is like the greatest self help book ever written, and you also have Jesus as your life coach… and all that is free of charge! Well, I suppose there will be some expenses…, you have to put in some effort, donate money to church and the needy, but point is God himself is not receiving any of my money.

If you think your life is just fine, the of course just continue on cooking your steak in your same favorite way and refuse to listen and try other recommendations.

However, if you think perhaps there are areas in your life that you are struggling with and don’t know how to… get rid of your stupid imposter syndrome for example. Perhaps it won’t kill you to give Jesus a chance?

[Tom Servo]

I often share my opinion, just not necessarily on the specific subject you're looking for. I don't have an opinion about what religion or lack thereof anybody should follow (well, except Scientology). I don't know if that comes from never having had one being raised atheist, but I just don't really have strong feelings about it. I have a relative who's a pastor, she finds it very fulfilling and enjoys it, I'm not about to start telling her she's wrong.

I do have a favorite way of cooking steak, but I would never tell you that you have to use my way. There are very famous chefs who undoubtedly cook better steaks than I do that do it a different way than I do. However, if you were to say that you don't rest your steaks after you're done, me pointing out that if you don't rest them it makes it really hard to tell if you cooked them well isn't me criticizing or telling you your steak sucks. Discussions are an exchange of ideas, but the ideas have to hold up to some level of scrutiny. If you have a favorite way of cooking a steak, that's great. If you say your favorite way of cooking a steak is based on this piece of information that's fundamentally flawed, like "I've found that every time I think about turtles while I'm cooking a steak, they come out better!" it's fine for me to point out that that might not be the thing that's dictating how good your steak is, and it doesn't mean I'm criticizing your steak.

(Just so we're 100% clear on this - I'm fine if you keep your kids home. I'm fine if you send them to school. Only you can make that call. I don't think it's a slam dunk decision, so I'm fine with them re-opening schools and would assume that sending your kids in would be on a voluntary basis rather than compulsory. I also think that the stat you shared should have no bearing on that decision, and said that not as a criticism but as part of the discussion. "Here's a reason why that probably shouldn't worry you.")

For what it's worth, I don't think I'm the one misunderstanding what following Christ is about. I think it's lawmakers who base laws on their religious beliefs and rant about Sharia law that are misunderstanding. It's lawmakers that think we should have the ten commandments posted in courtrooms, or that you should have to pray at school. Those are the people misunderstanding things.

I would definitely turn to a therapist about imposter syndrome before Jesus. To go back to the point about being raised atheist rather than giving up a religion - there's nothing about it that's compelling to me. I honestly think it would be almost impossible for me to actually believe, to have faith. I'd need some actual evidence at some point, otherwise it's no different from any other religion over the millennia. I think I could *pretend* to be religious pretty easily, but I wouldn't actually believe it.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Okay, regarding our earlier confrontation, thanks for explaining it in a way to help me better understand where you were coming from I guess.

I hope you are also beginning to understand that although I mentioned ‘turtles’, they really are not my main point. We don’t need to dwell on this fundamental flaw of mine so we can move on with the discussion? Or if you think the entire post is just stupid, then just criticize it and then let it drop? I want continual discussions, but not really discussion about turtles. If turtle really really bugs you, maybe next time I'll know to apologize for even mentioning it and so that we can just forget about it and move on or let the post drop… I’ll try to remember to do that next time. Ideally to not mention turtles in the 1st place!

Anyway, back to discussing faith…

I really don’t believe God is a God who absolutely refuse to leave us any evidence whatsoever. But since He thought faith is one important quality that He doesn't want us to lose, maybe that's why He rarely gives us direct evidences? Even when Jesus shows up on earth, there's still no direct evidence that seeing him is the same as seeing God... and people still just have to take his word for it, right? We could still assume he might just be a witch or magician illusionist for the cool tricks that he performed? We can always find reasons to doubt when it's up to Him to prove it. However, think about it, even for scientists... Scientists are the ones who actively seeks to find the truth. The universe doesn't just reveal evidences to scientists. I supposed universe could do that, but only interested scientists would respond to such revelation. Regular lame person maybe just thought that magic mushroom was cool trip and then totally forget what was revealed by mr universe…

Point is we need to seek or take initiative I guess. After you made that leap of faith… and you didn’t fall? That would be the evidence God gives you. If there’s no God or you took a leap of faith on a false God, then likely you’ll just fall…

I really do believe the entire human race is equally lousy. If a religion has been really helpful over the years, if their God is really answering prayers and saving them… there must be something to show for right?

If all nations around the world are equally lousy, then yeah, I’ll probably remain more secular as a Buddhist. However, after I’ve taken a few leaps with Jesus, I also need evidence of something better in order to abandon him!

Christians can almost be universally agreed upon that they’re just a bunch of dumb judgemental sinful asshole…, but how can you explain the achievements of Christian nations? Thank goodness for atheists in Christian nations to carry the weight to move these lame nations forward?

Also them Jews… why in the world are they always at the center of the worlds attention? Always fighting or being killed by different people… and they’re always the last one standing.

Anyway, Jesus certainly doesn’t want hypocritical believers pretending to be believers. If you can’t believe, you just can’t believe. I totally understand. I think my hatred for Christians and their religion peaked around the W admin…, so I totally understand how you feel, but something happened that changed me.

My prayer is for something happen to you too! if you really don’t want it to happen, then stay strong and resist the power of the bright side!

[Tom Servo]

I get they weren't your main point, that's why I said my bit and then, when pressed, said that I don't have an answer for you. Conversation was over at that point.

How can you explain the achievements of Muslim nations, or Buddhist nations, or all the achievements of the Roman empire, or pagan nations? Sure, if you cherry-pick achievements of predominantly Christian nations but also ignore the failures of predominantly Christian nations, they do sound pretty good in comparison. Lots of civilizations have had great achievements and great failures throughout history. It also depends on your definition of achievements, some might consider the conquest of the new world by countries like Spain to be an achievement, but the "using genocide to do it" part doesn't seem so great.

Also, I'm not sure that you do totally understand me. I don't hate Christians. I don't hate Christianity. I also am 100% not interested in reasons why I should take a leap of faith.

I realize you probably don't think you're pushing religion right now, but to me you are, which was one of the two things that I don't like about religion. Again - very happy for you that your faith fulfills you and improves your life. I hope it does so for the rest of your days. I hope that you take this in the way it's intended - I'm not criticizing you, I'm helping you out by saying "you are wasting your time."

[Dicknose]

There are countless mutations, but natural selection will cause only few Covid variants to stick around.
I think similarly with deities… as confused people end up creating their own variant gods, they can’t all survive the test of time.
Only a select few that are truly useful would stick around.
After thousands of years of mutation, we are only left with just a few legit world religions.
Even if we end up with just a single religion left, I suppose that still won’t prove there is really a God unless he shows his face.

That actually seems to be an argument in favour of god(s) being a human creation.
But a religion being successful or long lasting is in now way proof of its deity or supernatural claims.

Since deities seem reluctant to actually communicate with us in direct and obvious ways, its actually possible that an extinct religion could be correct and their deity has just given up. So I dont think we can even rule out defunct religion as an option for the "one true religion"
If a deity cant be bothered clearing up the confusion over the bunch of religions we currently have, couldnt they also just give up if we got it wrong and lost faith in them completely.

[Dicknose]

To go back to the point about being raised atheist rather than giving up a religion - there's nothing about it that's compelling to me. I honestly think it would be almost impossible for me to actually believe, to have faith. I'd need some actual evidence at some point, otherwise it's no different from any other religion over the millennia. I think I could *pretend* to be religious pretty easily, but I wouldn't actually believe it.

Im similar - I dont think I could "just believe" when it seems to me to be unbelievable. Its not a switch I can flick.
Im different in that I was raised christian. We were not a very religious family, but I was sent to sunday school until my early teen years. We didnt pray at home, rarely said grace, mostly on special occasions. Im not even sure if my parents actually believed, but we at least play the part.
Now I cant point to a time as when I thought it wasnt true. The reverse - I cant actually remember ever thinking it was true. Then again I cant remember ever thinking santa was true. I know that by 5 I was sure santa was an act and I should play along for the other kids. Maybe I just assumed religion was similar, something you pretended because it was a "greater good" to let others believe.
And yes, 5 year old dicknose was already a cynical smartarse.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Swervo, Well, let’s agree to disagree. I don’t believe I’m wasting my time.

Speaking of Time…

Yes, let’s use the test of time to measure ‘achievement’.

There were numerous amazing civilizations in human history. But if we don’t even know how to build those pyramids anymore, then it’s technically lost or gone, right? It’d be crazy for people to consider their religions seriously.

So if God of Abraham is fake, May all the religions that sprung from it eventually cease to have any relevance in our world and quit wasting everyone’s time! Amen?

[Dicknose]

Point is we need to seek or take initiative I guess. After you made that leap of faith… and you didn’t fall? That would be the evidence God gives you. If there’s no God or you took a leap of faith on a false God, then likely you’ll just fall…

And if there is no god at all - why would you fall??

I could see a god punishing people with wrong faith, but a non-existent god cant punish you!

Again, I would say that your argument here goes against a christian god, since we have had plenty of successful civilisations that were not christian. Sure they might not have lasted till now, but if god letting you "fall" takes several hundred or even thousands of years and vast numbers of generations - well thats a very subtle sign.
It seems as though the success of a civilisation doesnt depend on their religion.

Christians can almost be universally agreed upon that they’re just a bunch of dumb judgemental sinful asshole…, but how can you explain the achievements of Christian nations? Thank goodness for atheists in Christian nations to carry the weight to move these lame nations forward?

Also them Jews… why in the world are they always at the center of the worlds attention? Always fighting or being killed by different people… and they’re always the last one standing.

So both christians and jews can be right...
jesus is the only way and jesus is not the way.
And this is clear because christian nations are successful and the jews havent been wiped out.

You know that religion is almost universal amongst civilisations and that some civilisations will be successful, meaning that some religion will be there for the ride. Heck it could even help the ride. But this doesnt prove the supernatural claims of the religion.

If there was only one true religion, why hasnt it won over everyone? Why hasnt its deity made it clear? Why so many different gods?
Wow its almost as if its universal that humans will invent gods.

[Dicknose]

Yes, let’s use the test of time to measure ‘achievement’.

Thats not much of a test...

if no god exists then its still possible for religious civilisations to have success and that could continue over long periods of time.
id argue that has already been shown by egyptian, roman, greek, mayan civilisations and continued with christian and islamic countries.
Then again Id say that right now there does seem to be a correlation been success and atheism. Not saying atheism causes success, the reverse, success and secular socialism reduces the need for religion.
But hey - its not like god would send a plague to wipe out the people who are wrong, hint hint, chant with me - USA! USA!
While good old secular NZ is probably doing the best.
mic drop!

[Crazed_Insanity]

Im similar - I dont think I could "just believe" when it seems to me to be unbelievable. Its not a switch I can flick.
Im different in that I was raised christian. We were not a very religious family, but I was sent to sunday school until my early teen years. We didnt pray at home, rarely said grace, mostly on special occasions. Im not even sure if my parents actually believed, but we at least play the part.
Now I cant point to a time as when I thought it wasnt true. The reverse - I cant actually remember ever thinking it was true. Then again I cant remember ever thinking santa was true. I know that by 5 I was sure santa was an act and I should play along for the other kids. Maybe I just assumed religion was similar, something you pretended because it was a "greater good" to let others believe.
And yes, 5 year old dicknose was already a cynical smartarse.

My wife is actually a cynical smartass too. She was raised in a devout Christian family and father was a pharmacist turned pastor… if it weren’t for the fact that her parents are not hypocrites and lived a modeled Christian life, for sure she would not have became Christian. That is because she can see thru hypocrites very quickly. She’s not much of a ‘believer’ like you guys, but as long as you practice what you preach, she can still respect you. However, we all know most Christians don’t practice what they preach, myself included… so I get in trouble with my wife plenty of times!

Anyway, my wife really hates the typical church and the fake hypocrite Christians… she is a God fearing woman but oh boy she just hates Christians… and yeah, sometimes she’d hate me too!

I think to most folks, believing is not that hard, it’s to be able to truly practice what you preach… that’s super hard. I know I often fail. I suppose that’s probably why God’s salvation isn’t performance based, just faith based.

Unfortunately for you two, asking you guys to believe is just too hard, but that’s okay, God has all the time in the universe to wait for you guys!