Religion

[Tom Servo]

I'm glad you've come to find out that the thing you've accused us of thinking, despite us repeatedly attempting to explain to you that that's not the case, is not what we think.

[Crazed_Insanity]

What exactly are you talking about?

[Tom Servo]

Anyway, just want to note for the atheist folks here that religion really isn't the root of humanity's evil.

I'm really tired of people assuming I think that.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Well, do you believe none of the atheists in this forum thought that as well?

My comment wasn't specifically aimed for you also.

I do believe the growing sentiment for atheists in general is freedom from religion rather than freedom of religion because, to them, religions offer little good but often cause lot more bad... Am I wrong with such belief?

If all of you atheists here truly believe humanity's past and present evils were not really caused by religion(s), then I apologize for my comment.

Anyway, my main point is that humanity can be really messed up at times. No mental healthcare professional can help thos INCELs. Prostitutes also won't be able to help them because they might be too cheap to pay... there's really no hope for those INCELs...

But Jesus came to save even them and die on the cross for them. If only they knew how much they are loved..., then maybe there'll be less tragedies...

[tigeraid]

Many of our past and prevent evils were caused by religion. The "system" of religion. The bureaucracy. The lies and the control. As I've ranted many times in the past, faith and religion are separate entities. I have no faith but I have no problem with anyone who does. I will pleasantly debate them regarding their sky goblin deity if they want, but I have no problem with something that gets them through the day.

Organized religion is a system of control that takes ADVANTAGE of that faith. Indoctrination into a rigid ruleset that is outdated, often bigoted, and stunts human progress in the extreme. Organized religion provides no positive benefit to mankind. SOME members OF said religion may provide benefits (small local churches running charity drives, for example), certainly, but that is in SPITE of the system that controls them.

If organized religion blinked out of existence tomorrow (again, not FAITH), the world would be measurably better, and many evils would disappear. This is a simple truth. That doesn't mean there aren't evils separate of religion altogether.

[Tom Servo]

- I would believe that the vast majority of atheists in here think similarly to me, though much like religious people, not all atheists are the same (which was my main objection - what I took as an assertion that all atheists are the same). Religion is often good and a useful thing for many people. I just don't like it when someone expects me to follow it too. You do you, you let me do me.

- You addressed it to "atheist folks here". Not sure how I should feel like it's not addressing me, I am 100% included in that group. Well...at least I know I'm here and I'm an atheist, I suppose it's possible that I'm not "folk", but I'm pretty sure I am.

- You aren't wrong, but you're incomplete. Religions offer little good but a lot more bad *for us*. Freedom from religion doesn't mean demanding other people be free of religion too, unless they want to be. It just means "don't make laws based solely on a specific religion's beliefs." For example, I'm not a fan of the idea that kids in school are expected to say the pledge of allegiance with the words "under God" in it, and I didn't say that part when I went to school. Admittedly, I'm not a fan of the pledge of allegiance anyway, it seems weird and dictator-y to demand that all schoolchildren start each morning declaring their allegiance to something, but that's besides the point. I don't like that religion is often used to ignore climate science, or to limit other people's rights.

- Again, you're lumping everyone together. You know what? There may be an atheist or two on this forum who do think that. That doesn't mean every atheist thinks that.

- I don't think you're going out on a limb to say that humanity can be really messed up at times. I do think you're going out on a limb to say that mental healthcare professionals can't help Incels, I think part of what the problem is now is that instead of finding guidance, potentially within a religion or with a therapist, they end up in internet echo chambers that amplify their grievances, that let them blame their problems on everyone else, that they are good people who are being wronged. Still, the vast majority of people who consider themselves "incels" are not going to go out and murder people.

I agree wholeheartedly that religion is not the root of all evil, but I do think it has often been used as a tool to do evil things. I also think there are people who might otherwise be evil were it not for the specter of an eternal afterlife of torment if they don't behave themselves. I've been asked in the past why I don't just steal and rape and murder because there's no final judgment, and it always scares me that these people sound like they would *totally be doing that* if it weren't for the fear of eternal damnation. Religion has its place, and probably always will. If I had to pick a root of all evil, it'd be fundamentalism, but that's me.

So, in short - I agree with you. Religion is not the root of all evil, and extremism/fundamentalism is definitely up there as a major cause. I just take exception at you lumping all atheists together, myself included, as disagreeing.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Many of our past and prevent evils were caused by religion. The "system" of religion. The bureaucracy. The lies and the control. As I've ranted many times in the past, faith and religion are separate entities. I have no faith but I have no problem with anyone who does. I will pleasantly debate them regarding their sky goblin deity if they want, but I have no problem with something that gets them through the day.

Organized religion is a system of control that takes ADVANTAGE of that faith. Indoctrination into a rigid ruleset that is outdated, often bigoted, and stunts human progress in the extreme. Organized religion provides no positive benefit to mankind. SOME members OF said religion may provide benefits (small local churches running charity drives, for example), certainly, but that is in SPITE of the system that controls them.

If organized religion blinked out of existence tomorrow (again, not FAITH), the world would be measurably better, and many evils would disappear. This is a simple truth. That doesn't mean there aren't evils separate of religion altogether.

I think it's kinda hard separate faith from religion. If all churches and bibles were to disappear, how does one maintain faith? In what?

If you're specifically talking about 'organized' religion, then let's just focus in on the 'organized' part...

Is INCEL group a religion? Surely not, but clearly internet has allowed them to 'organize'.

But even without "organization", a twisted individual could still out of frustration end up doing some evil all by himself.

So I think it's the warped ideology that people take to the extreme that end up manifest as evil in this world.

Anything can be this "ideology", it could be religion based, it could be politically based, whether from the nazi alt right whities or left wing antifa... Almost any 'idea' can be warped and pushed to the extreme. Given enough time and enough hopelessness and enough sense of entitlement, even Flying Spaghetti Monster can be used to brainwash folks into doing something stupid.

[Crazed_Insanity]

- I would believe that the vast majority of atheists in here think similarly to me, though much like religious people, not all atheists are the same (which was my main objection - what I took as an assertion that all atheists are the same). Religion is often good and a useful thing for many people. I just don't like it when someone expects me to follow it too. You do you, you let me do me.

- You addressed it to "atheist folks here". Not sure how I should feel like it's not addressing me, I am 100% included in that group. Well...at least I know I'm here and I'm an atheist, I suppose it's possible that I'm not "folk", but I'm pretty sure I am.

- You aren't wrong, but you're incomplete. Religions offer little good but a lot more bad *for us*. Freedom from religion doesn't mean demanding other people be free of religion too, unless they want to be. It just means "don't make laws based solely on a specific religion's beliefs." For example, I'm not a fan of the idea that kids in school are expected to say the pledge of allegiance with the words "under God" in it, and I didn't say that part when I went to school. Admittedly, I'm not a fan of the pledge of allegiance anyway, it seems weird and dictator-y to demand that all schoolchildren start each morning declaring their allegiance to something, but that's besides the point. I don't like that religion is often used to ignore climate science, or to limit other people's rights.

- Again, you're lumping everyone together. You know what? There may be an atheist or two on this forum who do think that. That doesn't mean every atheist thinks that.

- I don't think you're going out on a limb to say that humanity can be really messed up at times. I do think you're going out on a limb to say that mental healthcare professionals can't help Incels, I think part of what the problem is now is that instead of finding guidance, potentially within a religion or with a therapist, they end up in internet echo chambers that amplify their grievances, that let them blame their problems on everyone else, that they are good people who are being wronged. Still, the vast majority of people who consider themselves "incels" are not going to go out and murder people.

I agree wholeheartedly that religion is not the root of all evil, but I do think it has often been used as a tool to do evil things. I also think there are people who might otherwise be evil were it not for the specter of an eternal afterlife of torment if they don't behave themselves. I've been asked in the past why I don't just steal and rape and murder because there's no final judgment, and it always scares me that these people sound like they would *totally be doing that* if it weren't for the fear of eternal damnation. Religion has its place, and probably always will. If I had to pick a root of all evil, it'd be fundamentalism, but that's me.

So, in short - I agree with you. Religion is not the root of all evil, and extremism/fundamentalism is definitely up there as a major cause. I just take exception at you lumping all atheists together, myself included, as disagreeing.

Fair enough.

Fundamental difference between me and you lies with your statement which I bolded.

I do believe Jesus Christ has had way more positive influences than negative ones for the past 2000 years or so. I still hold the belief that western societies wouldn't be where it is today without Jesus.

Now, I do worry about what you meant by 'often' in your statement... if your 'often' means less than 50% of the time, then, nevermind, because then we totally agree with each other. Other than the faith part.

[Dicknose]

I also think there are people who might otherwise be evil were it not for the specter of an eternal afterlife of torment if they don't behave themselves. I've been asked in the past why I don't just steal and rape and murder because there's no final judgment, and it always scares me that these people sound like they would *totally be doing that* if it weren't for the fear of eternal damnation.

Ditto.

And asking “where do you get your morals?”
Like they can only come from a deity (or the people runnning said deities earthly operation!)

It’s possible to be a good person without religion.
Got plenty of examples of believers who are bad.

[Crazed_Insanity]

What is 'good' though?

Who gets to define what good really is?

Likewise what is bad?

People can justify crucifying Jesus because they deemed him to be a bad dude at the time.

Can one really believe in moral relativism and at the same time know what really is 'good'? Isn't that kinda like traveling in a stormy nite without a compass at sea and insisting you know which direction you're heading?

Okay, let's just assume you really do know what good is, aren't you doing it because you want to make this world a better place(create heaven) and not cause too much suffering(create hell on earth for somebody else)?

We're not really all that different.

It's just that you believe you can be naturally good without guidance, whereas I default myself as naturally bad and can easily be lost without guidance.

When weather is good, guidance system seems unnecessary, but when it gets dark and stormy, can you really be that confident in yourself?