Religion

[FaultyMario]

"Made in god's image" like everything else in any religious text is highly allegorical and open for interpretation. There's the official (insert your preferred organized) religion view, the scholar view, and of course, your view. I believe religion is a matter between the person and his/her creator force/thing/person, thus while all these other interpretations of scripture are to be taken into account, it is ultimately the person's decision how it's taken in.

I believe my creator is unidentifiable, incommensurable and unspeakable. It is everywhere all at once, and while I can experience some of it, Its stimuli goes beyond my senses, overcoming my humanity. I have chosen, based on tradition and acculturation, to have a mental image of him as humanesque. But culture has only gone so far, ultimately the image I have of him is my own construction, not the other way around.

Anyway I looked, my creator would look like. Bearded, blue eyed old man with the body of a greek olympian? Sure, artist's impression.

If we ignore, for the sake of this discussion, the Mary narrative, we'll find that Jeesus was born like any other human, he lived and died a human life. What kind of issues do you think he had?

Brother J came to show us that in spite of our human limits, we can live in love.
Love's possible, in fact, Love's the only way, man.
George Clinton put it better, perhaps.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I agree with most of what you said, especially the part about love! Now, yes, we all can have different interpretations of the scripture. All Christians are basing their faith on the same text. If that text is bogus, it doesn't matter whatever stimuli you can sense from the supernatural, it's all bogus hallucinations. If that text is true, then all of our various interpretations cannot all be correct, only partially. Now, our salvation isn't logic based. It's not like if only the Baptists got it all correct, then ONLY Baptists are saved and all other Christian denominations can perish in hell. We're not saved by correct interpretation of the bible, but saved by faith in God. We can definitely screw up on our interpretations, and other things as well, because God knows WE all have various 'issues'. We're not perfect; therefore, most likely incapable of truly comprehend what perfection is... or never be able to fully comprehend what God is like. Unlike other creatures on earth, we are like God, we can strive to be more like God, but we'll never be the Original...

So anyway, yes, Jesus was born into this world as a human baby. He was fully human in the flesh, only spiritually God. He can definitely experience the same troubles we experience. Such as hunger, fear, and even death. However, I'm not sure if Jesus had any issues or problems or could really succumb into temptations like Wil Dafoe's protrayal of Jesus.

For one, Jesus' interpretation of the Bible ought to be absolutely correct otherwise what would qualify him as the one and only Son of God if he even doesn't fully understand what his Daddy said?

So, yeah, I don't think Jesus had any issues or problems or capable of doing anything 'unloving'. He was the perfect human living on earth 2000 yrs ago. I was just wondering what you meant by you believe in a Jesus who had 'issues'. What did you mean by that? Do you believe Jesus was imperfect as us? If so, why?

[FaultyMario]

If you could see beyond the narratives of authority, this debate would be much easier.

There is no perfection. No one can judge something to be "x" without also framing reality to scales of value that fall within predetermined parameters. Who is to judge a building? The construction authority, of course! They do so, based on a codified agreement between representatives of public interests and rulemakers. Who could judge whether a person's life is "perfect"? what scales could be agreed upon to do so? whose interests would then be represented? The idea of perfection is thus a representation, but trying to characterize a person's relationship to his or her god in any degree of perfection would be impossible, it is a unique bond, much like the person herself is unique.

Agreed?

Oh, and while on the subject of Proposition 7, that too should be the basis for a secular society.

[Crazed_Insanity]

You meant CA prop 8? Anyway, let's hold off on that for a minute, I think it's more important for us to figure out who Jesus is or what ought to be first.

I can agree with you that there's no perfection in this world at the moment. Nothing is perfect. Nothing lasts forever.

God on the other hand is not of this world though. I believe based on scripture reading that God is perfect and He lasts forever. So God ultimately should be able to judge whether or not this Jesus character is perfect or not, right?

I understand it's impossible for us to 'judge' Jesus. However, do you believe the God who you believe in could judge this Jesus character? Do you believe God the Father sees Jesus his Son as having certain issues?

[FaultyMario]

I can experience a creator. My creator. He lives because I do. Once I die, my creator dies with me. Whatever I can say about him, is limited by my voice, which is in turn limited by the language of my mother's mother. Whatever I can express outside of my head is a mediated presentation (by culture -language and linguistic artifacts- and by nature -the materials and tools I have access to-). To even imply that I could know what's going on in the head of a force so infinite that I can only experience and not properly talk about is beyond presumptuous.

I don't care if Jesus was perfect, miraculous, virtuous, or even awesome. I believe him to be the incarnation of my creator, sent to be a worldly example of love. The rest of his story, I have appropriated thru my own means. My Jesus is different from the Jesus anyone else sees, specially the one the creator can experience. And since I don't have any sort of interaction with god, that is, he hasn't gotten physical with me in any way that can be recorded or registered, there's no way I can reach any sort of accord with him as to what would constitute "perfection". That'd be like being told about Nirvana without the actual experience, right?

Do you have any doubts about any of his worldly activities not told in the gospel? Tough luck, buddy, "You're gonna have to trust me on this one" is going to be the usual answer. Whatever answer you're given, it will be non canonical, so yo better check yo'self before you wreck yo'self, because while I trust God almighty, I don't have such a high opinion of human endeavor.

In essence, Should God be ultimately able to... who the fuck knows! and whoever says he does, is a fucking liar. Those are white lies you say? well, shove em up your asscrack, If you think I'm not mature enough to handle reality without you putting some sort of mask around it, we shouldn't even be having a conversation in the first place. Remember: "Do unto others / Love thy brother as Jesus loved you" is the universal declaration of Christianity. It's how we ALL should aim to treat each other.

Would you lie to Jesus? So why lie to your child about a certain subject, then? To shield him from harm? That's a nefarious view. You can protect without lying/deceiving/abusing.

Would you lie to Jesus? So why lie to your parish about god's plan, then? Why pretend you know things about god that nobody else does? For personal gain. It's the only explanation.

So, Proposition 7, homie, What is committed to you, pay heed to; what is hidden is not your concern.

[Crazed_Insanity]

How do you know your creator dies with you? Are you sure you're telling yourself the real truth or perhaps you're also lying to yourself?

I didn't have the luxury of being born and raised in a Christian culture with Christian families. So I was only exposed to these 'lies' by believers in America and thru the reading of the Bible. Is Jesus perfect? Bible told me he is. I don't understand why you wish to ignore what the bible tells you and insist on believing your own version of Jesus... You can tell me what you 'believe' and you wouldn't necessarily be telling me truth or lies. It'd just be what you believe.

Matter of faith is just not that straight forward. When Steve Jobs envisioned personal computers in every family, his 'dream' at the time was obviously a 'lie' because there were no computers in every family. Computers were also so huge that it'd be impossible to fit into every family. However Jobs the 'liar' had faith and turned his apparent 'lies' into reality over time.

Further, what about Martin Luther King's dream? Claiming not just to his church but to the entire nation that God has taken him to the mountain top as He did with Moses and he SAW the promise land! Was he lying to the Americans? Do you think people at the time could believe that within their life time, a black US president would emerge?

Now, of course I'd concede that lots of dreams are simply day dreams... visions are simply drug induced hallucinations... or perhaps just BS propaganda for their personal gains. For sure God didn't make everyone a Moses or whatever prophet to deliver His Words to people. Most of us are just regular common believers. So how can we tell the differences in a real dream or BS day dreams? Well, if such vision is just so contrary to the bible or to loving God and loving one another, then we can probably safely ignore that. Otherwise, I wouldn't call such dreamers as liars. I'm sure in time, such dreams can become reality.

If Bible is a book of lies, I'm pretty sure in time, people will find out. Only truth can withstand the test of time. Some lies can also last a long time sure, but, in due time, I'm sure it'll be exposed.

I totally agree with you regarding the love part, but I'm still a bit confused with your theological belief... and sounds like you're already made up your mind. Your Jesus is your Jesus. Has nothing to do with my Jesus or anybody else's Jesus. Which is understandable... because I'm sure every Christian has a slight different interpretation/view of Jesus. However, I just believe that these various 'jesuses' aren't really the real Jesus. I'm sure even I don't get 'my Jesus' completely right... so I suppose my 'wrong' Jesus would die with me, but there ought to be a 'real' Jesus who died on the cross 2000 yrs ago and came back to life, right? If the crucifixion story was fiction, then we all got it wrong. Being so called Christians are simply lying to ourselves. We certainly don't have to be Christians to love one another. Don't really need a fictitious Jesus or a perfect or imperfect Jesus to love, right?

Lastly, again, what's prop 7?

[Kchrpm]

I don't understand why you wish to ignore what the bible tells you and insist on believing your own version of Jesus... You can tell me what you 'believe' and you wouldn't necessarily be telling me truth or lies. It'd just be what you believe.

The Bible was written by man, and has been translated and interpreted by man several different times. As a result, everyone tends to have their own version of Jesus, ignores or interprets differently things that the Bible says, etc.

Everyone's religion is just what they believe.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Humans can certainly make mistakes and end up with some transnational errors, but one has to believe that the book is still mostly accurate. If it's so horribly written, and if there really is a God, then I'm sure God would destroy that book and start another revision or something... If there's no God and I honestly believe such a horrible BSing book, then that should've led believers down a wrong path rather than becoming one of the most popular books ever.

Anyway, my point was that if you just cannot believe in that book, that's fine. If that's what I honestly believe in, that bible is BS, then I wouldn't be a Christian. I wouldn't care whether if my mama is a Christian... or my nation is made up of mostly Christians. It's not like I HAVE to be a Christian or else the government would have my head... or I HAVE to be a Christian otherwise I can't love...

It's okay to NOT be a Christian, but I just find it odd that some people can be self pro-claimed Christian but refuse to believe what the bible says. Now, I don't expect believers to take every single word in the bible literally. Even I don't do that. But with regard to the central figure Jesus Christ, why is it so hard for a Christian to believe that Jesus was a sinless perfect man while he roam around earth 2000 yrs ago? Is it necessary to believe that he partied hard, slept around, got into lots of troubles at school while he was young then he started his early ministry later on? Or why must my supposed 'creator' die with me? Why must we refer to our imaginary friend as God or Jesus? I just don't see a need in that.

We could just replace God with love. Yeah, my love dies with me. The way I feel my love can be different from your version of love... and we can still love one another in the best ways that we know how to... We don't really need a book to tell us how to love. Just be a lover! But of course even if we replace all religion with 'love', since our version of love may still differ, potential for conflict could still exist.

[FaultyMario]

Have questions? Google has answers.

http://books.google.com.mx/books?id=...page&q&f=false

Satisfy your curiosity, C_I.

[FaultyMario]

Do you understand Christianity's origin as a reformation of Judaism? The idea of the new covenant?