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Thread: Politics

  1. #13221
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    I feel like it should be pointed out that the definition of "concentration camp" has absolutely nothing to do with where people were "plucked" from or whether or not the government has a right to "pluck" them there.

    "A place where large numbers of people, especially political prisoners or members of persecuted minorities, are deliberately imprisoned in a relatively small area with inadequate facilities, sometimes to provide forced labor or await mass execution."

    I think we all agree that at least the "mass execution" part is unlikely, but that's also in the "sometimes" part of the definition. The "large numbers of people...deliberately imprisoned in a relatively small area with inadequate facilities" part passes muster, IMHO.

  2. #13222
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    I have to point out that these folks are not political prisoners of Trump nor is Trump trying to persecute this group of folks due to their ethnicity.

    Iíd agree itís some sort of camp, but I just donít think it really fits the definition of concentration camp.

  3. #13223
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    I read "especially political prisoners or members of persecuted minorities" as "doesn't have to be, but generally is." Also of note, ethnicity is not only way a group can be a minority, and I would disagree in that I think he is absolutely persecuting a minority group and has done so since his very first speech announcing his run for the presidency.

    But either way, it's pedantry. He's separating kids from their families, keeping them in cages where they are sleeping on concrete in brightly lit rooms and trying to deny them soap and toothpaste. If you don't like calling it a concentration camp, that's fine I suppose, but it's ultimately immaterial.

  4. #13224
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crazed_Insanity View Post
    I’d agree it’s some sort of camp, but I just don’t think it really fits the definition of concentration camp.
    What *you* think has nothing to do with the accepted definition of a concentration camp.

    IIRC the first instance that fits the definition is the British internment of Boers. Then the Nazi first had Dachau and Sachsenhausen (for political prisoners) and when they annexed Poland they built Stutthof where they would send ethnic Poles (as opposed to Polish citizens of German ethnicity) before they were deported from the fatherland. At around the same time you had the Japanese-American internment camps in the California desert. And very recently you have those re-education camps for political and ethnic minorities in China.

    The idea of a concentration camp is basically to otherize and separate equals based on ideological groupings.

    The forced labor and extermination are the lengths those in power can go to, once the general populace is comfortable with the feeling of superiority and numb to the suffering brought on by separation.
    Last edited by FaultyMario; June 24th, 2019 at 04:34 PM.
    acket.

  5. #13225
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    If it is the generally accepted definition already, then why do you need to bother pointing out that AOC is right? Why do we even need AOC to tell us that?

    Like those who disagree must be deplorably dumb, oh yeah, AOC is right! Those ARE concentration camps!!!! Thanks for opening our eyes!

    Thereís no excuse for family separation and mistreating them, but no other concentration camps that I know of that allowed the folks inside to leave voluntarily.
    https://www.themarshallproject.org/2...eaving-the-u-s

    Btw, Swervo, at least the orangutan finally wised up and stopped family separation.

    https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/a...ration-policy/
    Last edited by Crazed_Insanity; June 24th, 2019 at 11:10 PM.

  6. #13226
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    Because people like you, who once needed to migrate, have fallen to complacency and think that the fascism devised by Miller and enforced by Trump is "probably the only thing happening against [their] will" or that "Politicizing this issue is really pointless".

    Let's be clear on two things. One: these families are not "illegal migrants", under the 1951 convention and the 1967 protocol (which the U.S. cosigned) they fall under the status of Refugees. Two: these border and customs policies are already "politicized"; that's the nature of public policy; Public policy is a political solution to a public problem.

    At their core there is an ideological goal, for example: "will ensure that all Americans have access to quality, affordable health care and will create the transformation within the health care system necessary to contain costs." The example assumes health care is not affordable and in need of transformation. As you can probably tell, not all people agree on those beliefs or stances; and as such it be necessary to grab some ideological discourse and repeat it until enough of those people's minds are changed.

    What happens if we call the Stephen Miller concentration camps just that? It makes us take a look at how the dynamics of our society are being framed as problems, with a more critical eye. I mean, in light of all the evidence (shift in trend of migrant entrance to the U.S. from illegal border crossings to port-of-entries, shift in trends of country of origin, Trump using 'mexicans' as a slur for non-white latinoamerican migrants*), what problem needed such harsh policies? Most analysis point to an electoral problem: the need to energize a racist minority within the president's support base. Why the need for Ocasio to speak? Because we've fallen complacent and numb to abusive policy carried out by the state, against its legal obligations under numerous treaties and agreements.
    Last edited by FaultyMario; June 25th, 2019 at 04:25 AM.
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  7. #13227
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crazed_Insanity
    Btw, Swervo, at least the orangutan finally wised up and stopped family separation.
    He only *said* he was stopping it.

    https://www.bostonglobe.com/news/nat...HfO/story.html
    https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...ol/3563990002/

  8. #13228
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    Trust me, more than half of Americans are not complacent or numb about Trumps stupid policies. Itís just that our hands are tied, as Muellerís.

    Most Americans were not scared into locking up refugees... maybe we were scared during 9/11 thus Guantanamo or WWII thus Japanese camps, but this refugee camp is just not quite on the same level IMHO.

    But letís just say, for the sake of argument, it is the same level of evil, Iíd rather AOC push forth new legislations that can prevent such camps in the future rather than just politicizing this. This is not the 1st time US has done it and this is , to me, not the most evil that weíve ever done. No need to act SO surprised as if weíve never seen it since nazi concentration camp. When it is really evil, sure they wonít even allow much media access at all.

    What trump has done is certainly inhumane and evil and should make Christians wonder if heís really a Christian at all. Clearly this is not something Jesus would do. Nevertheless I do believe you and AOC are a bit over the top.

  9. #13229
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    Yeah, well, I'll try again.

    TL;DR Some internment facilities can be concentration camps, some concentration camps can be extermination camps. Internment facilities are not inherently evil. Concentration camps are an extremely harsh enforcement of the law. All laws are applied by policy. Policing one law can often come into conflict with other laws.

    Laws should have reasonable margins for enforcement, because you can't make new laws for every new situation. When extreme enforcement is being used, it needs to be pointed out so that its application can be changed.

    Ocasio is bringing attention to a conflictive application of force. It is her opinion that the executive needs to be held accountable for such harsh policies. That's the whole point of the 'checks and balances'.
    acket.

  10. #13230
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    Ok, to make it shorter, Iíd fully agree with you that we need to hold admins accountable somehow and have laws in place that can prevent similar inhumane camps from springing up in the future.

    However, I just donít think itís appropriate to equate whatís happening now to nazi concentration camp. Not only would trump base disagree with you, Iím sure holocaust survivors would too.

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