Politics

[Crazed_Insanity]

That's certainly my take. I'm curious as to what made Billi think that that's a point of contention.

I guess I can only speak for myself. Prior to my assimilation to the Christ-collective, I freaking hated Christians. Surely there's a difference between Bill Clinton Christian and the George W Bush Christian, right? While I was a Buddhist, I really look down upon Christians... I meant the taking Jesus Christ super seriously kinda Christians. Not the Bill Clinton types who probably simply uses church for social needs. Post W winning the WH, I ended up hating Christians more and more... particularly the conservative born again types like W.

Funny enough, I became somebody who takes Christ seriously in 2003. Then I don't hate Bush as much, but I still didn't want to vote for him. He is just the wrong man for the job. But would Gore and Kerry do better? Only Lord knows.

Anyway, given that the nation is becoming more secular, particularly on the left, would you guys really want to vote for somebody who takes Jesus Christ and the Bible seriously? That's what I meant by 'church going'. Considering he (Delaney) has so many kids, my guess is that he's a pretty devout Catholic. Now, this may not bold well for him on the right either... because some conservative Christians are afraid of WH falling under the Pope's rule with Italian collusion...

Anyway, if the candidate can really connect emotionally with the voters, then surely personal faith probably won't be much of an issue, but if there's not much connections made, surely religious faith or lack of thereof can be used as a reason to NOT vote for somebody.

All being equal, I'd definitely give a serious Christian candidate my vote, but faith won't be used as a litmus test for me. However, I'm not sure average voters in the US are really like me. You guys don't really think the line between conservative and christian has become blurred in the US? Lots of you still believe a Christian like me must really love Trump... and people on the right still insist leftist like Obama is a Muslim. These warped mentalities due to political polarization will probably be difficult to change.

[Tom Servo]

I think it comes down to a difference between a fundamentalist of any sort and someone who believes, even devoutly. I like the pope, I think overall he's pretty good, though he still has some misguided opinions on homosexuals, for instance. My brother-in-law's sister is a minister, and I think she's an amazing person and appears to run a fantastic church. I don't hate anyone for their beliefs, I dislike when people try to force their beliefs on others.

I obviously see a difference between the Bill Clinton Christian and the George W. Bush Christian. However, it's not something I particularly care about or consider one to be better or worse than another. I don't like it when George W. uses his Christianity as a way to claim that he's better than others.

I obviously don't know the guy, but I have no reason to believe that Obama didn't take Jesus Christ and the Bible seriously. My in-laws are catholic (though they have become less involved with the church when they grew increasingly disgusted by various child molestation scandals), my wife is ostensibly catholic, though, like I said, she's become more "believes in god, but not organized religion". She believes there's a god. I don't. We respect each other's feelings about that, I have never thought less of her because she holds different beliefs on that, and neither of us have ever tried to change each other's mind on that, though we have discussed how we feel about it and why we believe the way we do.

Finally, when it comes down to whether people associate Christianity and conservatives as a single thing, I'd say it's more nuanced than that. I think there are people who use their religion as a cudgel. "I am more moral than you because I go to church more." There are people who, in my belief, take the wrong lessons from the church. These are the same people who not only ignore the idea that only god can judge you, but actively consider themselves the ultimate judge. I won't vote for those people because I think they're bad people. It has nothing to do with their Christian faith, it has to do with what kind of person they are. I also wouldn't vote for a militant atheist that insists that anyone who believes in a god is a lesser person.

I, like anyone, am mostly surrounded by like minded people. That said, it's certainly not my experience that I'm unusual in this mindset. Almost everyone I know is Christian to some extent, from the "I believe in a god but not religion" to a minister, and very few of them love Trump.

[Crazed_Insanity]

The problem with Christianity... or Jesus Christ is that he is not going to "peacefully" coexist with you. He's willing to sacrifice himself or whatever it takes in order to win you over!

For 'serious' Christians, they want to follow in Christ's command to convert folks. Asking them to resist that command and respect folks of other religions is futile.

Thing is that Christ's conversion tactic should never be that heavy handed. He'd never shove anything down anybody's throat. My own conversion wasn't like that at least...

Anyway, United States of America was founded by folks who were heavily influenced by Jesus Christ and the Bible. It almost doesn't matter whether if Lincoln was a believer or not... The entire western world was heavily influenced by Christianity.

Compared to the rest of the world, has Jesus and the Bible really been such a bad influence overall?
(Remember, wars, aggression, slavery, homophobia... they all exist in non-christian worlds too. God didn't invent those things.)

It'd be great if people can vote across faith lines... and party lines... and whatever other polarizing lines and be able to pick out the best candidate for the job... and not just the lesser of the 2 evils. I suppose when it comes to picking the lesser evil... we end up relying on these 'lines' to pick somebody closer to where we stand...

Obviously Hillary is closer to you and Trump is closer to them so Americans voted accordingly.

But fuck... quit feeding us these lousy options. We need somebody who can really help the country work together!

[George]

So, I know a lot of democrats

Me too. I hang out here.

[Tom Servo]

Me too. I hang out here.

This is how we know that biking corrupts people. Right here ^^^

[Tom Servo]

Sorry to quote the ignored one, but:

It'd be great if people can vote across faith lines

My point is that many people do. I almost always do, as there aren't a lot of atheists running, but I still believe that I'd vote for a person that I think is better suited for the job rather than their religious beliefs. I hope that you gather that whoever fed you a line about leftists not voting for church goers was feeding you propaganda to get you to go a certain way. Most leftists I know are Christian. Not all of them regularly attend church, but all of them believe in the Christian God, at least in some shape or form. Hell, I can count the number of atheists that I know on one...well...maybe two hands, but that's less than 10 of hundreds of people that I know. That idea that leftists won't vote for someone because they're church-going or Christian is based in absolutely nothing. I have never met or talked to a single person who has ever said that they wouldn't vote for someone because they go to a Christian church.

EDIT: In fairness, I just caught myself thinking "If a Scientologist ran, fuck that person". So I guess to an extent there is a litmus test there. On the other hand, one could say that's not specifically religion based. If someone works for IBM, I'd think of them differently than if they hawked Herbalife. If someone was part of a bird watching group, I'd think of them differently than if they were part of the flat earth society. So, take of that what you will.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Anyway, nobody fed me anything. If there must be a somebody, then it was me feeding it to myself... because I remembered the days when I really dislike Christians who take the bible too seriously. W was also the 1st guy to confirm my suspicion of hypocritical Christians... that I should vote for the least Christian dude on the ballot. Dreamed of hoping that one day America can grow out of her lame and backwards christian roots...

But God changed my view.

I'm glad God didn't have to do anything for you to alter your political view!

You were raised in a Christian environment, so perhaps it's easier for you to not dislike christians I suppose. That just wasn't the case for me.

I suppose even now, if a candidate is a hardcore christian fundamentalist, I'd still not vote for him. I can certainly agree with the dude's pro-eternal-life stance, but bible is also pretty clear about allowing people to choose whether or not to accept Jesus. Pro-life and pro-choice go hand in hand, not against each other. Unfortunately in our current political climate, we can only pick one side to stand with and wish the other side to goto hell.

[George]

This is how we know that biking corrupts people. Right here ^^^

Yup. Now I just need a Prius and some Birkenstocks.

But I was a musician and hung out with a bunch of dope-smoking jam-band hippies for a long time. Democrats are a hell of a lot more fun to be around, and I'm glad I live in a place where people let other people be who they are - at least a lot of people. I don't feel the "compartmentalization" here in the west that exists in the south.

I lived most of my life in the south. There it's common for people to ask "where do you go to church?" in casual conversation, and as part of introductions. That is asked by some folks when you move into a house in a new neighborhood, for example. It was often asked in business, too. I was in outside business-to-business sales and I was frequently asked that as prospects and customers sized me up for the first time. One learns to be prepared for the question and have a good answer ready. "Um, well...I...uh..." is not an acceptable answer to those who would ask such a question.

I think some oters definitely vote along religious lines. They always have and always will. I'm also thinking Roy Moore has this election sewn up, unless the Democrats really "get out the vote" and women vote against him en masse for obvious reasons.

To paraphrase a humorous prayer I read somewhere: "Lord, protect me from your followers."

[Tom Servo]

You were raised in a Christian environment, so perhaps it's easier for you to not dislike christians I suppose. That just wasn't the case for me.

Preschools were pretty limited in Clairemont, so when I was four I went to a preschool at a nearby Presbyterian church. I don't remember much outside of being read stories while I took a nap on a cot (awesome) and having to stand in a circle in a dark room with some candles (fucking creepy).

A lot of my neighbors were Christian. The Dowings three doors down across the street often babysat me and they were Baptist. The Norths who lived two doors down were Fundamentalist Lutherans from Tyler, Texas, and I often got into the most vigorous religious debates one can get into with someone else when you're both around 5 years old. "If you don't believe in God, where do you think the Earth came from?" "Where do you believe God came from?!?" *slap slap slap*. (As a particularly self-serving aside, they disowned their eldest daughter when she started dating a black man and their only son spent a few years in the pokey for drug dealing, though as far as I know their youngest daughter, the one I would get into debates with, is still the apple of their eye).

I have gone to church a few times after being invited by friends. Joey Salvati invited me to go to church, telling me that all you do there is draw things on the chalkboard. I went to his church and did exactly that. In return, I taught him to ride a bike. I also went with the Norths one time to their Lutheran church. It was insanely boring. One of my first girlfriends was very Christian. I liked her a lot, but she wasn't particularly okay with me not believing, so she dumped me.

I've been to some church weddings, including three Catholic ones, two of which I was part of the ceremony. I've never stood up and knelt down so many times in my life. I'm a godfather to my cousin's daughter, though I have to admit I'd be pretty shitty at showing her the ways of Jesus if something should happen to her parents. That said, the Catholic church which bestowed upon me that title said it's fine that I'm not a Catholic, as long as my wife is, and I was there to help with my cousin's daughter's baptism.

I went to a Norwegian camp as a kid (I know, it's weird). We would go to the local Methodist church and sing for them, mostly in Norwegian ("Ja, vi elsker dette landet") and attend the sermon every year. I was a counselor the last few years, so I had to really be into it to encourage the kids to be into it as well.

I was in AP Literature in my senior year of high school, and as part of that we read the Bible.

That would be the extent of me being raised in a Christian environment. My parents have been atheists since I was born, as is my sister. I've just been raised to know that we all have different beliefs. I was raised to know that many people find comfort in their beliefs, or find that it helps them live the life they want to live. I was raised to know that I might not be right, but to try to seek out the truth the best way I know how, like I would expect others to do.

I do not believe that I am in a minority in that.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Okay, I hope majority of the folks are like you, that it's only the minority of the folks who wish to remove religious statues around court houses, wipe off the cross on LA county flags and find saying merry christmas offensive...

Of course I also don't completely blame those minority of folks because they were most likely bullied by the christian fundies sometime in their lives..., who knows, maybe they were also sexually abused too!

But that's all really due to the dark side of human nature, not really Jesus' fault...

Anyway, I suppose it's possible that the kind of "theological polarization" doesn't really exist. Perhaps it's all the fanatic religious folks going crazier and crazier... while the atheists aren't really moving much!

But we can't deny existence of political polarization, right? However this political line is drawn, we are driven further and further apart.

I do believe that even Mother Nature is sick of that... and therefore flooding blue water on red states and burning red fire in blue states to send us a message.

We should regularly be voting across party lines during elections... depending on who is the better person for the job. Unfortunately, dreaming for that day to come is as wishing for some fairy tale of biblical proportion.