Originally Posted by Crazed_Insanity
You've just been told that not everything is a binary choice. Have you learnt that yet?
And he was not being a dick.
And, when was America great?
You've just been told that not everything is a binary choice. Have you learnt that yet?
And he was not being a dick.
And, when was America great?
Yes, I’ve learned that I’m racist homophobic jerk and I shouldn’t be too binary/extreme but need to answer binary/extreme questions from you guys. Got it.
Happy now?
Oh and one more thing, yes, America sucks and was never great at anything. I need to accept that extreme view point while claiming America to be great would be too extreme for you to swallow. I’m so sorry about that.
Can you leave billi alone now and let us move forward with actual political discussions?
Mario, hope you’re still here?
Last edited by Crazed_Insanity; August 17th, 2019 at 01:59 PM.
Spoiler:
I guess you must have seen that in the same spot you saw me say that all Americans are dumb. Go ahead and run with what you want to believe is happening here.
Last edited by Tom Servo; August 17th, 2019 at 02:18 PM.
Swervo, what exactly do you want to achieve by continuing? You don’t have to answer me. Try to answer yourself.
I’d happy to discuss with you on any topic, but I really cannot continue to talk to you about billi. Yes, he’s the only binary extremist here. Feel free to enlighten me with regard to why Americans are not being dumb about their polarizing politics and the nuances of how lousy or great America is. Do you actually believe America was never great? I’d be happy to hear your views on that. Our discussions really don’t have to be so billi centric.
What are your views?
Honestly I just want to learn and understand different views, not trying to find fault and personally attack you back.
If you just want to continue to point out and laugh at the obvious MO of billi, then you go ahead and have a good laugh.
Last edited by Crazed_Insanity; August 17th, 2019 at 02:33 PM.
Hey, stop putting words in my mouth and then we're all set. Otherwise, I feel like I have to clear the record when you claim I've said things that I haven't said. Though you make a fair point, anybody on here can clearly look back through this thread and see whether I said those things or not, so I probably don't need to do that.
But to try to answer your other questions, I don't think Americans are being dumb necessarily. Propaganda is a powerful tool and whether or not you're smart has very little to do with how susceptible you are to it. Critical thinking is a skill, not something innate to intelligence, and it's something that I don't think our schools have taught very well. I know I could be better about it. What's interesting to me is the power that the internet has put in the hands of propagandists. Propaganda is always the most effective when it latches on to your preconceived notions. Platforms like Facebook have both a) made your preconceived notions publicly available to be preyed upon and b) have real-time analytics to let propagandists know whether their latest round of it has been effective or not. I mean, what a dream for the Russian government. They don't even need spies on the ground to figure out if something is working, they get real-time data on user engagement from Facebook. Throw one thing out there to try to divide people and almost nobody shares or likes it, but that other thing get shared thousands of times. Make more stuff like that! FWIW, this is why I really didn't like your "smart" vs. "dumb" thing. Lots of smart people get swayed by effective propaganda, and IQ is a poor test of intelligence, so not only did I think it was not a good idea to drop everyone into those two buckets, but I also think the overall premise of who is smart and who isn't was fundamentally flawed.
It's almost impossible for me to quantify if it was "great", since it's greatness can change drastically depending on your circumstances. If you are a white Christian male, it's probably been pretty great. For others, maybe not so much. Even so, for others, it might be greater than the place they left to come here. America has definitely been great at specific things. It's also been pretty shit at some other ones. I'd paraphrase the Churchhill quote about democracy (yes, I'm aware that he was quoting someone else, though I don't know who), America is the least great country except for most other countries. I think the first and fourth amendments are two things that make this country truly great. I think the second amendment makes it pretty shit. I know there are other people on this forum who will feel differently than me about that, and they're not wrong and it doesn't make me right. America's been pretty great for me overall, but it's also obvious to me that I am pretty lucky in that regard. I am in the 10% of earners, own my own home, and can ride a bicycle to work. I ride past multiple tent cities full of people who have been left behind every day on that commute, and I see new people showing up every day in them. A year or so ago there was a burned out RV next to one of the train stations I ride past. It smelled really bad. Found out later that a husband and wife who had been laid off and could no longer afford their rent were living in it when it caught fire. They got out, but their dog was still inside and the guy ran in to try to save it. They both burned to death. I'm pretty sure America's not that great for them.
Last edited by Tom Servo; August 17th, 2019 at 02:57 PM.
My sentiments, pretty much.
acket.
That’s more like it, that’s what I like to read!
Anyway, my earlier claim that most people do not have above average IQ, that’s just statistical fact, not me being extreme. However, that was not the only point presented... I also said that even if most people have the IQ of Forrest Gump, do you think he’d be as politically polarizing? Or be susceptible to Russian propaganda? At least in that movie, FG made a lot of smart choices... and Jenny, with higher IQ ended up making a lot of dumb choices. Low IQ is out of our hands, but making dumb choices is mostly our fault. The main point I was trying to drive across was do you guys think most Americans were making smart or dumb choices? I still don’t believe we are where we are today because most of us made the smart choices as Forrest. Most us are more like Jenny.
Anything that makes you hate half of your American brothers or sisters is probably propaganda imho.
As for whether if America is great or not... why does it have to be from the perspective of an individual? If you’re an alien or historian of the future or God or whatever outsider... giving USA a grade.... would USA be near the top or bottom compared to other human nations past or present?
I don’t understand why it’s so hard.
Do you agree USA was never great?
If you agree with Neanderthal more than with me, I’d like to know why.
Last edited by Crazed_Insanity; August 17th, 2019 at 07:06 PM.
Well, in an ideally distributed set of IQ scores, that would not be a statistical fact. Of course this is not ideally distributed, but the average should be *close* to the middle point and is just as likely to be on the other side, that most people do have a higher than average IQ. I'm not a statistician, but that's at least my understanding. I also stand by the idea that IQ is not a valid determination of how susceptible one is to propaganda. I don't think "smart or dumb choices" is relevant here. People are making human choices.
And of course it has to be from the perspective of the individual. Even in the case of the alien or historian or God, those are all individuals. You will always have your own scoring system. Do you prioritize happiness? Economic prosperity? If that, do you include Economic Inequality? Population? Cultural Influence? What if happiness and prosperity changed the environment of the entire globe for the worse, is that still a good grade? What if it only changed it for the worse for every other country, but your own benefited? I mean, if you managed to indirectly, through your own prosperity, wipe out every other civilization, would that be a top grade or a bottom grade?
It's incredibly hard.
I don't know if the USA was great or not because I don't know the definition of great that you are using.
I agree with Neanderthal more than you if only because I don't understand why you are so concerned that everyone say that the USA was at some point great. If it was great for you, that's wonderful! It's been pretty great for me, which I'm thankful for. It's not been great for everyone, and there's no possible way to score that in a way that will take everyone into account.
Ok, let’s forget about whether if most people have above or below average IQ since I also agree with your statement here:
“ I also stand by the idea that IQ is not a valid determination of how susceptible one is to propaganda.”
Let’s also save the America’s greatness discussion til later.
I just need to understand what you meant by human choices. Why is that more relevant than us humans making smart or dumb choices?
Technically wouldn't 50% have higher than average IQ and 50% lower than average....because average?
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote