The anti-vax thread

[G'day Mate]

Because now I'm afraid to go to Disneyland and that makes me sad. Fuck you, anti-vaxxers :mad:

[speedpimp]

Thank Jenny McCarthy.

[overpowered]

Disneyland. Sporting events. Anywhere with lots of people in close proximity, especially if a significant number of those people are un-vaccinated children.

[Sad, little man]

The trend for people to take very firm stances on one topic or another (such as vaccinations) that is in conflict with the accepted scientific view on something is beginning to get very concerning. Here's what I'm talking about:

http://www.pewinternet.org/2015/01/29/public-and-scientists-views-on-science-and-society/

All of the research and scientific knowledge in the world is irrelevant if we all just disregard it.

[MR2 Fan]

The trend for people to take very firm stances on one topic or another (such as vaccinations) that is in conflict with the accepted scientific view on something is beginning to get very concerning. Here's what I'm talking about:

http://www.pewinternet.org/2015/01/29/public-and-scientists-views-on-science-and-society/

All of the research and scientific knowledge in the world is irrelevant if we all just disregard it.

This is going to get deep, but I think it has to do with evolution...meaning, people are often way too driven by their intial instinct on something, or will be too quick to trust something that mirrors their beliefs, without them thinking objectively or seeing other possibilities *cough*religion*cough*

Most scientists are more objective and find many sources of information before reaching a conclusion. They take the non-gut instinct approach to solving things.

I've decided that a majority of humans may not have this ability, or are VERY difficult to get them to use it.

[G'day Mate]

It's the affect heuristic ... right?

Conclusion based on emotional attachment/response or "gut feeling" despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary

[overpowered]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

[MR2 Fan]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

intriguing

[G'day Mate]

Indeed. I'm glad I have a word for that now.

[Rare White Ape]

It'll be ok to attend these events if you're vaccinated.

hashtag: full circle

However it sucks if you're too young or immunocompromsed to be vaccinated against these things.

[G'day Mate]

Only if the vaccine is 100% effective ... which it often isn't

[overpowered]

I read a better description for this specific issue but I can't remember the name of it and I've been having trouble with searches. The gist was the more you show people facts and logic, the more determined they are to disbelieve the facts and logic. It comes up in pretty much all science denial scenarios.

The Dunning-Kruger effect seems to come up a lot with programmers. I've had to deal with a lot of terribly incompetent programmers who thought they were awesome. If you write a 3000 line doGet() method for a Java servlet, you are not awesome. You don't even know basic object oriented design.

[Dicknose]

I dont think it is helped by people being told "dont be sheep" and "think for yourself"
This helps reinforce that you need to do your own thinking. But combine that with the Dunning-Kruger and you get people who not only are ignorant, unaware, but are being told that they are doing the right thing by using their own (limited) knowledge.

As much as you should think for yourself, its also important to realise that on very technical topics we should rely on others who have trained/studied for years.
Thinking for yourself is good. But you cant just will yourself to be an expert.

To raise another issue - why does this seem to be a bigger issue in some countries rather than others?
Why do Germans appreciate technical training and knowledge more than Australia, which is probably still more than the US?
Its not about religion - Angela Merkel is religious, but also a PhD in Chemistry and from the germans Ive spoken to, they acknowledge that her PhD in science as an important fact in her ability to lead.

[KillerB]

Only if the vaccine is 100% effective ... which it often isn't
Actually the measles vaccine is nearly 100% effective. The measles virus doesn't appear to mutate very often - its genetic makeup is very stable.

Contrast this with the flu vaccine, which tries to account for many different strains that mutate quite quickly.

[Sad, little man]

Honestly, I think what it comes down to, at least in the US, is the fact that it seems like there are constantly studies coming out that contradict earlier findings, specifically in relation to health issues.

I think people have grown suspect of trusting any health related scientific advice because all too often results of studies seem to be overturned by new studies later on.

[thesameguy]

I think people have grown suspect of trusting any health related scientific advice because all too often results of studies seem to be overturned by new studies later on.

I would really like to believe that. I know that applies to me. But I seriously doubt most people have the presence of mind to do anything but exhibit knee-jerk reactions to whatever is in their face. The number of completely idiotic things people say grows daily, and a significant number of them originate from the media or, worse, the media ten years ago. I think most people develop an opinion and stick to it, never ever thinking they should re-evaluate it.

It's difficult not being able to just rubber stamp dilemmas that face you and that's why people do it. "I did it this way yesterday, I'll do it again today" saves time and effort. But personally I have a hard time with that - I feel that more often than not there is new information to be incorporated into a process and it's worth learning about. Stuff takes me longer as a result, but it's the way I roll.

[Fogelhund]

http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/medical_examiner/2015/01/internet_comment_credibility_study_vaccine_decisio ns_influenced_by_online.html?wpsrc=fol_tw

This is worth reading.

[Yw-slayer]

I agree with SLM and TSG. For me, the best example comes is "recommended eating habits".

[Rare White Ape]

I read a better description for this specific issue but I can't remember the name of it and I've been having trouble with searches. The gist was the more you show people facts and logic, the more determined they are to disbelieve the facts and logic. It comes up in pretty much all science denial scenarios.

What you're looking for there is called the backfire effect.

[overpowered]

http://images.dailykos.com/images/127471/large/Anti-Vaxx_BlanketsKos.Color.jpg

[21Kid]

One of my wife's friends is a crack-pot anti-vaxxer. And one of her arguments was that the measles vaccine has killed 100 people over the past 10 years, while measles has killed 0.

Seriously. :mad:

[overpowered]

I've seen that claim before and I looked into it and it seems that yes, ~100 or so children who received the vaccine died not long after but few can be definitively linked to a reaction to the vaccine. The ones that could, appear to have mostly been due to having too many vaccinations too close together. Vaccines work your immune system and so it's best to spread them out so your body isn't overwhelmed. Dealing with a reaction to one can be bad. Dealing with a reaction to several at the same time can be fatal. There are also allergy tests for some vaccines that should probably be more widely used.

Of course, there's just the basic statistical problem that measles used to kill hundreds per year before the vaccine and still would do so if it weren't for decades of vaccination. She doesn't realize why it isn't killing anymore. There haven't been enough cases in the last 10 years for that to be a high statistical probability. I think mortality rates were around 0.1% just before the vaccine. 50 years earlier, it had been over 2%. That doesn't account for long term health problems for the survivors. A friend of mine's mom has been nearly deaf for most of her life due to the fever caused by measles, which she had in the 1950's as a child.

[Jacee]

Excellent topic and replies!

[overpowered]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfdZTZQvuCo

[Fogelhund]

http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2015/02/politics-and-vaccinations?fsrc=scn/tw/te/bl/ed/polvac

[Godson]

A+ would read again.

[Rare White Ape]

http://avwos.thespudd.com/im-an-anti-braker-gravity-is-all-i-need/

[The359]

http://avwos.thespudd.com/im-an-anti-braker-gravity-is-all-i-need/

:twitch: That's a picture of mine...

[Sad, little man]

You gots to get some copyrites, y0!

[Rare White Ape]

:twitch: That's a picture of mine...

Interesting!

I must note that I didn't post it on that blog, but a quick reverse image search shows it to have been uploaded by you here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disc_brake#mediaviewer/File:Ferrari_F430_Challenge_Brake.JPG

And it shows up eeeeeverywhere here:

https://www.google.com/search?tbs=sbi:AMhZZitln6jx0RG4jQDnFh8Mq0lw0KOIdmm iUOjg-z4ua7DWF7tlbHgmwf2PxcFPyFNzlpDy3i9EcExDLeynjkrjicd OgyUi_1HwH3J7Bx0IzxYDA8buoSqfrWIDRu5Xe0otm06BysI4N nDqQoa8mCu_1PdRiqN1IVGLmiK3MC-JQM6y0gNuL8xcrumvTh2uPRXxuFd5qMCpU8QUow_1Lxk8TskTu z0H_1I5DIT20wz2JC9cv7ejkNvgn_1XV2IGraFPXPnvTI5q0Dl a2-EsA5DJkCW8neuNn6BVdR17igBONV9fzTmEfz_1Tb_1UDFi_1J_ 1wx_1-IiTovi-evvtozdS5BaeQzGB-CH7ga5CX-N9-V69tj_1WPi0j3yyFbuFdjQIS0OJoSDu3UdDik8m2ooRkG_1lwu bUi86iK92WE8pAr_1Ml3Nb2Qq1Tbz7VtxaLhtjSNdWlA-g_1vLrMXgecKtSUJgzAq1pmn2JB5ngP88Dl3_1CfCN45-tEHoKUV1oZkFyIGVAy0QwyprA50lEje3TtZpPkULO18PxQgjt3 iKMUovUTC5n8AETYCRkBDdNLzj6H_1D73JMFWhR4YPlFxx5mdM 9VP-p9VCkqBTiJSwC529FgHBnl2ufnhMpWTyIsuE9bpTYjUuzevs2Y QEy2x_1ySvbeYmr1Hr6OYcfwQWHBHVQtdv5LQgxL0IZoOo3OeZ jgQcwJrmVDz-19-Ik6wHQuxjkDDuEG_1X9M029wW6UrMTq2mj5Had92NYxIDoLlug YNDMQ8d0YxUYpWpgvK-LsNuj9w25w5WmFYHSvc5T5hRY_1ljMMhkXYUpR5gQvs1Xh6Thm J_12PW3icDQZm95NOXtKnpL0PhYoOJpYbYNiTkdm7diX-J_1yZIpanTQX56Siavrwg7lp3XwoQRbJV2V_1z6Rb0h6UATuLS 8d0GQRoBCNv_19vRfzxb5n69x3I4jkyA37mqDggQ4gVXeBi90A SORTJQHdcqKPY4uiVjXt4t4iIUGiqtJ590NQtTLaKJXKo7QKKw 000LHNVdUT5raaOLUwSJ3XGKP1A4urzYObeDTR9tMLbbOOnHNf VtCt1yGmkMTiZD4VQXyvgwUxRsHAxyq3kTZ1feEC0gaz_1Fd26 xOtwB6S460anRJOP94NPEItNxGhzHegANw8KuETgw3riK85-Xw1DYVdJFtVZlL4c7QttJQMg40W7qrq980C0iFwDE8K15lIP7A KT5wqLHAKKy9VKfERFPoIB_1S9cj1lojm8X6FeJwpUgBaJxDxZ DVcl-SmCoq6TRX8n_10AdLBjWWrcsrtVUsQHzVVReEy8OzwkGLrrTz7 eW6k9WlaZy0UGtPgQIPwrvOQ_1-lzjzwVN0WpLdHJe-d4lNM7DzVmU8SsBnPnZdsdEvHWmnRn7my5Ka-HEsc7Onu-OeHXcY5Y5gl7TtGHX71Ai3GNxfn097kLa9sMnstd9wlEXUV2Mr 3EvfzbiSDvqhasJEsiqQdHBDHT_12aHZQ4U088PxEd7dq8r4z0-l6sQfunxqEHSoWetNecRSL8uX906lKsgp6hn6IlBW-v-Nfkh-C3CPMMSYIeLtfs7LNdfgjc9zA41LJoOHzAOMYiddCtyqPlCTUJ eTGe8SdMhHmA3NeWGwSR-z75sm-SY_1Eg-Y31Wo_1P4uX2sksIIdfo

So uh yeah...

At least this guy seems to have used the correct CC license.

[overpowered]

:lol:

[The359]

Interesting!

I must note that I didn't post it on that blog, but a quick reverse image search shows it to have been uploaded by you here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disc_brake#mediaviewer/File:Ferrari_F430_Challenge_Brake.JPG

And it shows up eeeeeverywhere here:

https://www.google.com/search?tbs=sbi:AMhZZitln6jx0RG4jQDnFh8Mq0lw0KOIdmm iUOjg-z4ua7DWF7tlbHgmwf2PxcFPyFNzlpDy3i9EcExDLeynjkrjicd OgyUi_1HwH3J7Bx0IzxYDA8buoSqfrWIDRu5Xe0otm06BysI4N nDqQoa8mCu_1PdRiqN1IVGLmiK3MC-JQM6y0gNuL8xcrumvTh2uPRXxuFd5qMCpU8QUow_1Lxk8TskTu z0H_1I5DIT20wz2JC9cv7ejkNvgn_1XV2IGraFPXPnvTI5q0Dl a2-EsA5DJkCW8neuNn6BVdR17igBONV9fzTmEfz_1Tb_1UDFi_1J_ 1wx_1-IiTovi-evvtozdS5BaeQzGB-CH7ga5CX-N9-V69tj_1WPi0j3yyFbuFdjQIS0OJoSDu3UdDik8m2ooRkG_1lwu bUi86iK92WE8pAr_1Ml3Nb2Qq1Tbz7VtxaLhtjSNdWlA-g_1vLrMXgecKtSUJgzAq1pmn2JB5ngP88Dl3_1CfCN45-tEHoKUV1oZkFyIGVAy0QwyprA50lEje3TtZpPkULO18PxQgjt3 iKMUovUTC5n8AETYCRkBDdNLzj6H_1D73JMFWhR4YPlFxx5mdM 9VP-p9VCkqBTiJSwC529FgHBnl2ufnhMpWTyIsuE9bpTYjUuzevs2Y QEy2x_1ySvbeYmr1Hr6OYcfwQWHBHVQtdv5LQgxL0IZoOo3OeZ jgQcwJrmVDz-19-Ik6wHQuxjkDDuEG_1X9M029wW6UrMTq2mj5Had92NYxIDoLlug YNDMQ8d0YxUYpWpgvK-LsNuj9w25w5WmFYHSvc5T5hRY_1ljMMhkXYUpR5gQvs1Xh6Thm J_12PW3icDQZm95NOXtKnpL0PhYoOJpYbYNiTkdm7diX-J_1yZIpanTQX56Siavrwg7lp3XwoQRbJV2V_1z6Rb0h6UATuLS 8d0GQRoBCNv_19vRfzxb5n69x3I4jkyA37mqDggQ4gVXeBi90A SORTJQHdcqKPY4uiVjXt4t4iIUGiqtJ590NQtTLaKJXKo7QKKw 000LHNVdUT5raaOLUwSJ3XGKP1A4urzYObeDTR9tMLbbOOnHNf VtCt1yGmkMTiZD4VQXyvgwUxRsHAxyq3kTZ1feEC0gaz_1Fd26 xOtwB6S460anRJOP94NPEItNxGhzHegANw8KuETgw3riK85-Xw1DYVdJFtVZlL4c7QttJQMg40W7qrq980C0iFwDE8K15lIP7A KT5wqLHAKKy9VKfERFPoIB_1S9cj1lojm8X6FeJwpUgBaJxDxZ DVcl-SmCoq6TRX8n_10AdLBjWWrcsrtVUsQHzVVReEy8OzwkGLrrTz7 eW6k9WlaZy0UGtPgQIPwrvOQ_1-lzjzwVN0WpLdHJe-d4lNM7DzVmU8SsBnPnZdsdEvHWmnRn7my5Ka-HEsc7Onu-OeHXcY5Y5gl7TtGHX71Ai3GNxfn097kLa9sMnstd9wlEXUV2Mr 3EvfzbiSDvqhasJEsiqQdHBDHT_12aHZQ4U088PxEd7dq8r4z0-l6sQfunxqEHSoWetNecRSL8uX906lKsgp6hn6IlBW-v-Nfkh-C3CPMMSYIeLtfs7LNdfgjc9zA41LJoOHzAOMYiddCtyqPlCTUJ eTGe8SdMhHmA3NeWGwSR-z75sm-SY_1Eg-Y31Wo_1P4uX2sksIIdfo

So uh yeah...

At least this guy seems to have used the correct CC license.

They added that after I told them to ;)

I knew where they got it from, just eerie to see it there.

[tigeraid]

I've only barely skimmed this thread, as the only thing that gets me angrier than organized religion is organized pseudo-science, but I have to assume billi has posted about being an anti-vaccer?

[MR2 Fan]

anyone think that if we had stronger science and logic education in schools, we wouldn't have as many problems?

[Godson]

No. Parents would say the teachers are lying. It would take 3-5 generations to see the change

[Rare White Ape]

Definitely. The most frustrating part is the whole misunderstanding of how science works.

People who dismiss theories because they're "just a theory" when really a theory is the strongest form of explaining a phenomenon and the equivalent word they're looking for is hypothesis.

Or people who, for example, say that "oh in the 1950s scientists thought that smoking was perfectly good for you" when in reality scientists would have had no determination on the subject until it was properly researched.

And then when something is researched and reported on and added to scientific consensus that means that "science is always changing its story" as if it makes science seem weaker… well holy shit that's because there's no point in holding on to incomplete or incorrect hypotheses.

Or people who ask why we should blindly trust science if atheists don't blindly trust religion, but science has nothing to do with religion and the sci-vs-god debate is an old chestnut that should be buried, AND nobody should blindly follow anything but the evidence for is there if you want to have a look.

Recently there was a minor uproar over NASA reporting on climate conditions but the misunderstanding came about because people who are not trained in science didn't understand probability and margin for error. That there perfectly highlights the problem with science illiteracy and the problems with reporting on it within a tight 2 minute news slot.

[tigeraid]

http://i.imgur.com/bVz38S2.png

[MR2 Fan]

http://img-9gag-ftw.9cache.com/photo/adYYEgQ_460s.jpg

[FaultyMario]

I clicked for teh Pr0nz.

[pl8ster]

I've only barely skimmed this thread, as the only thing that gets me angrier than organized religion is organized pseudo-science, but I have to assume billi has posted about being an anti-vaccer?

Whoa, now. Whether billi is anti-vax or not has nothing to do with the fact that he's Christian. I go to church pretty regularly and I believe very strongly in vaccinations. You might be thinking about religious orders that are against any kind of medicine and put their health completely in God's hands. Me, I believe that God gave me a brain so that I can listen to people that know more about certain things than me. Like doctors, for instance.

[tigeraid]

Whoa, now. Whether billi is anti-vax or not has nothing to do with the fact that he's Christian. I go to church pretty regularly and I believe very strongly in vaccinations. You might be thinking about religious orders that are against any kind of medicine and put their health completely in God's hands. Me, I believe that God gave me a brain so that I can listen to people that know more about certain things than me. Like doctors, for instance.


No, I'm thinking about him being dumb and relying on faith and not trusting science. I'm glad that you do. ;)

[thesameguy]

I think that was an unnecessary and unprecipitated attack, with no reason and no possibly good outcome. :down:

[Yw-slayer]

http://jalopnik.com/the-best-mockery-of-anti-vaxxers-is-this-car-based-anal-1684745617

[pl8ster]

No, I'm thinking about him being dumb and relying on faith and not trusting science. I'm glad that you do. ;)

It is possible to both rely on faith AND trust science.

BUT back to the subject at hand, that Jalopnik thing was :up:

[Sad, little man]

See, here's the problem with laughing at the anti-vaxers and making parodies of them... It's only going to drive them to become more alienated, which will make them even more devoted to their views. And then more kids are going to get very bad illnesses.

[tigeraid]

See, here's the problem with laughing at the anti-vaxers and making parodies of them... It's only going to drive them to become more alienated, which will make them even more devoted to their views. And then more kids are going to get very bad illnesses.


I find the only way to deal with such madness is with humour, lest we go insane ourselves.

[thesameguy]

See, here's the problem with laughing at the anti-vaxers and making parodies of them... It's only going to drive them to become more alienated, which will make them even more devoted to their views. And then more kids are going to get very bad illnesses.

This is probably true, but I'm not giving some measles kid a hug and a handshake.

Fortunately, these are the types of problems that tend to sort themselves out over time. Failure to sign up for swimming in the gene pool, so to speak.

[SportWagon]

So I looked up the wikipedia articles, and they claim the autism links were entirely bad science, and have actually been retracted by the original authors...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccination
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MMR_vaccine_controversy

They also confirm the notion that unvaccinated individuals present a danger to others because they provide ground for mutated viruses to grow in large numbers, so that even vaccinated individuals can become ill. Which leads to the concerns in the OP.

Sorry, it is only the publishers who retracted the publication, not the authors per se.

[thesameguy]

Inexplicably, that information has zero effect on anti-vax lemmings. I don't know why. I can't understand how the "founder" of a movement admitting he's a fraud doesn't undo the entire movement. I've mentioned this to people I've met who are on the fence or legitimately anti-vax and it never gets the reaction I'd expect... I'd be happy with either a "OMG, I was wrong!" or a "LIES! He was bought and paid for by the AMA!" but instead all you get is a blank stare as the notion glides effortlessly overhead. It is the weirdest thing I have ever experienced.

[TheBenior]

"OMG! If 'they' (AMA/Big Pharma/Illuminati/etc) got to him, they can get to anyone!"

[G'day Mate]

Did Andrew Wakefield admit he was a fraud?

[thesameguy]

No, he actually didn't. He continues to defend his work in the face of the varied allegations against him.

[Godson]

He she die from malaria...



Or Measles.

[Sad, little man]

See, this is the exact bullshit that I'm talking about...

http://health.usnews.com/health-news/health-wellness/articles/2015/02/23/feeding-babies-peanut-snacks-can-help-them-avoid-future-allergies

We've told people for years "avoid peanuts" now all of a sudden it's "Peanuts prevent peanut allergies!"

I think a lot of people just feel like, despite all the science to back up the safety of vaccines, that eventually the other shoe is going to drop and all of a sudden someone will come out and actually say "Whoops, vaccines aren't actually safe."

Do I personally think this will happen? No, absolutely not. But I feel like science to an extent only has itself to blame due to it constantly doing 180 degree changes in opinion about various topics.

[Godson]

The issue isn't science, it is those who are talking about science with only a single study, or a couple of studies with no real definitive information.


One person sees that researcher A finds product 1 to help with an issue, while researcher B disproves said claim. No definitive information has really been gained from this. It is not until many studies have been done, researched, analyzed... that we can actually find the definitive information. People who do not understand this and are super wishy washy are the real problem with the credibility of science.

[Rare White Ape]

And most people get their science news as tidbits on some Murdoch-owned news outlet.

Nobody has time to fully probe the depths of science news when they're too busy telling us how much we should fear the Moslems this week, or which celebrity has a fat arse and ugly hair.

[Sad, little man]

Yeah, but it's not just the media. It was the American Pediatric Association that previously officially recommended not to feed small kids peanuts, and now all of a sudden the advice is completely different.

[MR2 Fan]

National Geographic is running a timely article on the war against science:

http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2015/03/science-doubters/achenbach-text

[Godson]

Yeah, but it's not just the media. It was the American Pediatric Association that previously officially recommended not to feed small kids peanuts, and now all of a sudden the advice is completely different.

Wrong. That is NOT what the article is saying.


“The data in paper are obviously very impressive,” says Anthony Fauci, director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, the federal agency that funded and helped conduct the trial. “With regards to practicality of this now, we wouldn’t recommend to parents to do anything on their own but to contact an allergist to see if this data warrants a change in their child’s diet.”


This right here is a stop gap in medical terms. They are saying that the findings ARE important, but not the end all be all. This article was just published. It needs more statistics to be done by many different sources before this should become commonplace. It also does not outright say to go and feed your peanut allergy kids peanuts right off the bat.

[thesameguy]

Word. :up:

[KillerB]

And the allergy thing was complete bullshit anyway. I don't know about the rest of you 30-somethings, but I didn't know a single kid with a peanut allergy growing up.* We all ate peanut butter from a young age and it was no problem. I never saw peanut allergies until I was in my teens and 20s and people stopped giving their kids peanut butter due to allergy fears. Then all the fucking allergies cropped up. I've been saying for a decade that the reason most of these kids get a sensitivity is because they don't encounter peanuts at an early age and their immune systems go whack-a-doodle.

I think there's actually a huge crossover between the anti-vaxxers and the anti-peanut crowd, and they can all eat shit and die as far as I'm concerned.

*oh and don't tell me they all somehow just died from allergic reactions. I feel like if kids dropped dead all the time in the 70s and 80s we'd have heard about it.

[Rare White Ape]

Another huge industry is the gluten free world.

How much gluten free stuff is out there now being bought by a lot of people, compared to actual sufferers of coeliac disease?

Health food shops and naturopaths are another huge source of pseudoscientific bullshit.

All of them excel in separating people from their money thanks to their spurious claims. Plenty of anit-vax crossover there.

[Yw-slayer]

Growing up in Asia, I'd never met anyone with a nut allergy. It was very rare and I didn't even know such people existed. In England I finally did meet some, including people who'd been born in HK but went to England for boarding school and who were our age. However, I ate loads of peanuts. Other, "real", nuts, less so.

On the other hand, while no-one in my family has a nut allergy, my daughter (just under 3 years old) has had a peanut and nut allergy from very early on. At around 6-8 months (bearing in mind that she only ate solids from around 6 months onward) we we tried to feed her peanut butter and she screamed after having just a bit and broke out in a massive rash. She has less extreme reactions to real nuts, and even coconut water, but she still gets them, especially the rashes. Tests have confirmed the allergies. So, I don't think everyone who has a nut allergy only develops it because they don't eat enough nuts at an early age, and I am not a crazy anti-vaxxer.

I do agree that health food shops and naturopaths do propagate a lot of BS. You just need to be discerning, and if it works for you/them, then fine, stick with it. Also fuck paying US$10 for kale chips.

[overpowered]

While I'm sure that there are people who overblow the peanut allergy thing, for some people it is very very real. We're talking anaphylaxis for some people. I had a neighbor who carried an epipen when eating out over this. It's that serious for him.

It's kind of like there are people who actually have celiac disease and really can't eat gluten. Most of the people who think that gluten is a problem are not among them though.

I have some mild food allergies but nothing serious. They were verified by allergy testing by an allergy doctor with skin tests. One is lima beans, which I don't mind because I'm not a fan of them. The other is bananas, which sucks because one of my favorite foods is banana bread. Sometimes I eat it anyway and just put up with the stuffy nose. Before I got tested, I remember eating bananas and having my lip get swollen. I had an aunt who was allergic to strawberries and she liked them but she would have an even stronger reaction to those than I do to bananas.

[KillerB]

Yes but the point of the study is that people keeping their kids from eating peanuts is actually helping to CAUSE peanut allergies. Some people will still get them no matter what, of course.

I say every kid should get introduced to peanuts with a doctor and epi pen present. Once they pass that test, it's peanut butter sandwiches for ever after.

[Rare White Ape]

Is scoff the peanutty goodness all the time except it turns my stool into something resembling moist clay. It's hard to wipe, let me tell you.

And people who think they're gluten intolerant probably just have some kind of wheat allergy.

[Yw-slayer]

Some allergies come and go. In HK I used to love, and eat, loads of kiwifruit. While in England I developed an allergy to it. Since I came back to HK I seem to have been fine, though.

Apparently I am allergic to tomatoes. I haven't really experienced them affecting me, but I don't really like the taste of them anyway so I'm not fussed.

[thesameguy]

When I was a kid I had terrible allergies every November, usually so bad I was mostly incapacitated for one to two weeks. My parents eventually took me to an allergist who did the normal battery of prick tests (CAME BACK POSITIVE, ROFL!). They determined I was deathly allergic to peanuts and prescribed an epipen just in case I was exposed. I never did stop eating peanuts. The one thing I was sure I was allergic to - cantaloupe, which causes my mouth to itch to the point of intolerance - I am a-ok to eat. As far as I'm concerned, allergists and chiropractors can all take their pseudo-science and get stuffed. In any case, when we moved from SoCal to NorCal, my annual allergy fest came to a grinding halt, and my parents developed terrible allergies for which they are on various medications. :up:

I know a lot of people with all sorts of claimed food allergies. Some of them seem real, while others seem to exist solely for the purpose of making restaurant selection impossible. I guess I'm glad we all live in an age where we can pick and choose what we eat and justify our choices with fact and fiction, so whatever. Sadly, that also means we live in an age where measles and polio aren't real enough threats to justify vaccination. I'll bet as a parent in the '40s you'd risk autism over losing kids to untreatable illnesses. Maybe not. I'm not a parent.

But pseudo-science that enables people to develop all sorts of exciting opinions is everywhere, and as has been shown numerous times people trust the guy down the street more than qualified scientists an their government. Sucks that those people exist, sucks that I am surrounded by them. I figure, though, I'm surrounded by barely-functional idiots most of the time. We can't all be winners, you know. Someone has to build the pyramids and such. That's why I'm glad I have you guys. Even the nuttiest amongst you are still head and shoulders over the general populace.

[Yw-slayer]

I think a lot of it depends on diet and environment. I do have a friend who happily ate loads of gluten products until one day, in Beijing, he had such horrible stomach pains that he went to hospital. He was diagnosed with celiac disease, and so limits his intake of gluten, but does eat it occasionally and sometimes suffers bad reactions. Now he's back in HK, maybe he'll be OK? LOL

It is true that many scientific studies may not have been done properly, and/or may have been funded by special interests. So, again, who knows? Not that I have some Thieve's Oil to sell anyone...

[MR2 Fan]

But pseudo-science that enables people to develop all sorts of exciting opinions is everywhere, and as has been shown numerous times people trust the guy down the street more than qualified scientists an their government.

Maybe it has to do with familiarity and personal interaction? Like hearing someone dies that you've never met, sure, its bad, but if its someone you know? 10,000x worse feeling.

[overpowered]

And people who think they're gluten intolerant probably just have some kind of wheat allergy.Maybe for some but for most, I'm pretty sure it's more that they are mindless followers of wacky health trends.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Increased # of autism or allergies or whatever conditions for sure are men made whether in our polluted environment or modified foods. I kinda doubt any peanut free gluten free organic vaccine free life could fix it. Actually, even if those could fix it, people just can't afford to live with such expensive and selective diet. As for being afraid of vaccines, you kid could be autism free but dead!

[Rare White Ape]

Another factor influencing autism rates (or ADHD or anything you like) is increased diagnoses of these conditions. Sometimes it's through more accurate diagnosis methods, other times it can be an over-diagnosis for no real reason.

These trends change with different practising methods that change over the years, be they better knowledge, or maybe through crazy marketing for a new ADHD drug that pushes rates up when they don't need to be.

So environmental-or-other factors aren't the only things that increase disease rates. It can be the doctors or their methods themselves.

[Alan P]

My step son has clinically diagnosed Autism, suspected to have been caused by my Ex Wife's Anti Epilepsy medication. The nursery teachers first picked up on it but both my ex wife and myself (I met him when he was 2 1/2, he's now 19!) suspected something wasn't quite right. Of course at the time this Wakefield/MMR study was still a valid one so we held off on the MMR vaccine because of it and while my two sons also have some mental disabilities (one has Asperger's and the other clinically diagnosed ADD) we've since had them immunised with the MMR vaccine with no ill effects. Again my Ex's Epilepsy medication was suspected and we even met with a Lawyer to discuss it once but couldn't really get anywhere. I would IMPLORE any and everyone to get vaccinated.

As an example, this chap (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-31602670) was permanently disfigured and disabled after his mum caught German Measles (Rubella) while she was pregnant. Not exactly a 'harmless' disease.

[SportWagon]

Sorry, I can't resist...

[thesameguy]

Didn't that problem sort itself out a while ago?

[Yw-slayer]

My wife reminded me that we first fed our daughter nuts just after a year. She ate her first peanut ok but rejected and had reactions to other nuts.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I think we gave our daughter peanuts when she was around 2... when she had more teeth. Now at 3, no allergies so far.

But we think she might have ADHD. No professional diagnosis yet, just our own opinion. Her energy level is thru the roof and rarely can she focus on things for very long. Maybe that's just kids being kids. Fingers crossed.

[Godson]

That's not the deciding factor. Those are some of the external factors.

There are a lot more factors in there.

[Rare White Ape]

I guess that if you go with the natural remedy thing (which includes squirting coffee up your arse) to fight cancer, you die naturally as well.

At 30 years of age.

Harrumph.

http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2015-02-28/wellness-warrior-jessica-ainscough-dies-from-cancer/6271036

[Alan P]

I guess that if you go with the natural remedy thing (which includes squirting coffee up your arse) to fight cancer, you die naturally as well.

At 30 years of age.

Harrumph.

http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2015-02-28/wellness-warrior-jessica-ainscough-dies-from-cancer/6271036

Well that worked. But Big Pharma?

[Rare White Ape]

Big pharma is just a conspiracy with the illerminaty

[Godson]

Being that vaccines are less than 2% of their overall profits...

[overpowered]

A lot of the vaccines are old enough now that their patents, if any, have all expired. There's a limit to how profitable those can be.

[overpowered]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QgpfNScEd3M

[tigeraid]

http://www.examiner.com/article/bought-movie-full-of-appalling-misinformation


In much of the rest of the film, the “experts” they interview seem to be mostly chiropractors. Now chiropractors may help you with your muscle pains and the like, but they are not trained in science-based medicine or medical research, and have no particular qualifications to pontificate about vaccines.

Nonetheless, we hear from James Chestnut (B.Ed., MSc, DC and CCWP) on how “the government gets all its data from manufacturers,” and who runs something called The Wellness Practice. We also hear from Louis Sportelli, DC (who is mainly known for leading the ACA), Patrick Gentempo, DC (who has a career as a motivational speaker), Roger Sahoury, DC (who runs something called Above and Beyond Holistic Wellness), and Sherry Tenpenny, DO (whom PalMD calls a “washed up osteopath with no expertise in vaccines.”) Oh, and Mira Calton, ND and her husband Jay, who do some sort of Integrative Medicine quackery and claim that GMOs “wreak havoc on our bodies.” No evidence is presented.

Then we hear from Gayle DeLong, PhD. At least, someone with a real research degree! Oops, no, not a scientist, but she has a PhD in economics, but nonetheless claims to have found an association between vaccines and autism, thoroughly debunked here.

Moving right along, we next hear from Stephanie Seneff, who is an electrical engineer who uses a computer program for text mining to draw bizarre inferences, but never presents any experimental data to support them. Here she asserts without evidence that aluminum is very toxic and when used as a vaccine adjuvant “goes right to your brain.” Did she actually look anything up? Aluminum salts have been used in vaccines for over 70 years, and Paul Offit’s 2003 paper in Pediatrics completely demolishes that nonsense.

[overpowered]

Germany court orders measles skeptic to pay 100,000 euros

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-31864218

[G'day Mate]

:lol:

[Godson]

Oh ffs. :lol:

[Fast As Possible]

vaccines contain autism

[Fast As Possible]

the dress was white and gold

[Fast As Possible]

the plane can't take off

[overpowered]

I'm just amazed that he insists that measles is psychosomatic. I wonder how he explains how almost everyone who gets it is someone who has not been vaccinated for it?

[overpowered]

http://www.thelocal.es/20150608/eight-more-children-infected-with-diphtheria

[Alan P]

http://www.thelocal.es/20150608/eight-more-children-infected-with-diphtheria

A further eight cases have been detected among the school friends of the original child, but that they have not developed the illness.

All of the eight had been vaccinated against diphtheria. The children have been isolated and are being treated with antibiotics to prevent the onset of the illness.

The childhood illness was eradicated in Spain almost 30 years ago thanks to routine vaccination programmes, the last case being reported in 1986.

The original six-year-old boy, a resident of Olot near Girona, is still being treated for diphtheria after first showing symptoms on May 25th. His condition is described by authorities as “serious but stable” where he is being treated at the Vall de Hebron hospital in Barcelona.

His mother and father admitted last week that they "feel terrible guilt" for not vaccinating their child and said they felt hoodwinked by the anti-vaccination movement that convinced them not to immunize their son.

Well played anti vaccers, well fucking played.

[Rare White Ape]

Ha ha ha.

It also shows how you can be a vector for the disease even if you're immunised, as proven by those eight other kids. And being a vector means you can inadvertently pass it on to someone who's vulnerable or unable to be vaccinated. It's possible that they wouldn't have been a vector if a previously irradiated disease wasn't able to regain a foothold in the community.

Which is why herd immunity is so critical; to help protect those who need help the most.

[21Kid]

I get pissed just seeing this thread pop back up to the top. :mad:

[overpowered]

http://www.iflscience.com/health-and-medicine/spanish-boy-diphtheria-dies

:smh:

[speedpimp]

The guy who started the whole autism from vaccines kerfuffle committed suicide last week. Here (http://www.cbsnews.com/news/authorities-anti-vaccine-doctor-dead-in-apparent-suicide/).

[Rare White Ape]

Nah that guy is Andrew Wakefield, who fabricated the autism-MMR link on the payola way back in 1998.

[thesameguy]

Yup. That guy needs to go to trial. One of the measles kids parents should sue the shit out of him.

[Godson]

He should be injected with measels...but he is probably vaccinated against it...

[thesameguy]

Let the punishment fit the crime?

[Godson]

Yes. Fuck that dishonest pile of shit.

Then he should be given autism..

[overpowered]

https://scontent-lax1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xtp1/v/t1.0-9/11709808_931246690278674_2271844452528403900_n.jpg ?oh=8b2f6b8d3b4f72afdf2c45aa1f790fee&oe=56302AAE

[Godson]

:lol:

[overpowered]

https://scontent-lax1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpt1/v/t1.0-9/11707669_931460010257342_5499383325767065069_n.jpg ?oh=90759c98262d4e0cf184a3be9c2d0fc5&oe=561F48E4

[Godson]

:lol:

[overpowered]

Woman with compromised immune system dies of measles, likely contracted while at a clinic where a person with measles also was, due to an outbreak in that area.

http://www.doh.wa.gov/Newsroom/2015NewsReleases/15119WAMeaslesRelatedDeath

[Godson]

For fucks sake.

Completely preventable death.

[Alan P]

Culpable homicide?

[Rikadyn]

He should be injected with measels...but he is probably vaccinated against it...

Inject him with enough of it and the vaccine won't matter...

[Godson]

Better yet, give the fucker polio.

[overpowered]

Gack. Much higher death rate and among adult survivors a high rate of quadriplegia.

[G'day Mate]

If you're not protected, you can get measles just by walking into a room where someone with the disease has been in the past couple of hours.

Jeebus

[overpowered]

Anti-Vaxx Group Wants to Know Why Study They Funded Shows No Link Between Vaccines and Autism

http://jezebel.com/anti-vaxx-group-wants-to-know-why-study-they-funded-sho-1735168447

[Godson]

...because there isn't.

[TheBenior]

Goddamned reputable researchers.

[Rare White Ape]

Shit mate, it wasn't even wholly done by reputable researchers! The following is interesting reading:

https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/antivaccine-activists-fund-a-study-to-show-vaccines-cause-autism-it-backfires-spectacularly/


Here’s where the monkey study by Gadad et al. in PNAS, that has so riled antivaccinationists, comes in. Entitled “Administration of thimerosal-containing vaccines to infant rhesus macaques does not result in autism-like behavior or neuropathology“, it examines the effect of the infant vaccine schedule on macaque monkeys. Oddly enough, Laura Hewitson is one of the authors. Remember that Hewitson was a key player in doing the previous awful studies, one of which listed Andrew Wakefield as a co-author. She is now the Research Director of the Johnson Center for Child Health and Development, which is what Andrew Wakefield’s old quack clinic, the Thoughtful House Center for Children, became after he was given the boot by its board of directors in the aftermath of his losing his UK medical license and seeing his 1998 Lancet paper implicating the MMR vaccine retracted. Her history and current position just make the results of this study even more delicious.

However, later in the article:


Laura Hewitson, who by working with Andrew Wakefield on one of the preliminary studies used to justify this study showed that at that time she was very much leaning antivaccine, appears to have pulled back from the pseudoscience and become much more scientific.

One can only hope that this helps the situation somewhat.

[21Kid]

Excellent! :cool::up:

[Godson]

#winning.

[overpowered]

Surprise: School That Is Tolerant of Anti-Vaxxers Suffers Massive Chickenpox Outbreak

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2015/12/10/chickenpox_outbreak_at_anti_vaxxer_tolerant_melbou rne_school.html

[overpowered]

https://www.facebook.com/photo/download/?fbid=1017632681640074

[Godson]

Lead is a really neurotoxic agent, but that is still gold!

[Crazed_Insanity]

I tend to see this issue as peanuts.

Most people are not allergic to peanuts, but few are.

No need to laugh at the few who reacted badly to vaccines. Surely these vaccines are not 100% safe.

However, of course people shouldn't just be able to opt out of getting vaccinated out of fear. Hopefully someday we can come up with a test of who's really allergic and study what can be done for them rather than just ignoring them as stupid nutcases.

[overpowered]

Some people are allergic to some ingredients in some vaccines. For example, some vaccines use eggs and some people are allergic to eggs.

There are allergy tests for many vaccines and there are often alternatives available for people who are allergic to certain ingredients.

They don't cause autism.

[G'day Mate]

I Don’t Vaccinate My Child Because It’s My Right To Decide What Eliminated Diseases Come Roaring Back (http://www.theonion.com/blogpost/i-dont-vaccinate-my-child-because-its-my-right-to--37839)

:lol:

I actually got drunk and started trolling anti-vaxxers on facebook last night. It was good fun until it got deleted

[Rare White Ape]

Here's a good one that's doing the rounds right now.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2016/01/09/mark_zuckerberg_posts_photo_of_daughter_getting_va ccines.html

[G'day Mate]

Yeah I was just reading about that. One of the refutations mobs collected some of the nastiest comments and collated them into an image. I couple of them were saying they hoped the child would die!

[G'day Mate]

Just got a whooping cough vaccine. Didn't catch autism. Take that, anti-vaxxers

[Crazed_Insanity]

You can't really be diagnosed as autistic until the age of 4.

Have you turned 4 yet? :p

[overpowered]

Just got a whooping cough vaccine. Didn't catch autism. Take that, anti-vaxxersThe (crackpot) theory is that it causes a developmental problem that results in autism. Adults would be immune to the problem since their brains are already fully developed.

[G'day Mate]

(yeah, I know)

[Rare White Ape]

Does anyone know of one kid, one single kid, who has autism that is a result of a vaccine?

[overpowered]

No. Because vaccines don't cause autism.

[MR2 Fan]

Does anyone know of one kid, one single kid, who has autism that is a result of a vaccine?

Just like anything, there's always 1% or 1/10 of 1% who may have a reaction to a vaccine....and the same time kids are getting vaccinated are the same time where things like autism can be officially diagnosed....someone uses this correlation = causation fallacy to come up with a theory, posts it online, some celebrities get involved, and you get an outbreak of mis-informed and dangerous people who suddenly don't want vaccines.

[Alan P]

I have a good viewpoint of this. My stepson has autism. He's now 19, lives with 24/7 support alongside another lad who also has problems in a house in Edinburgh. I've known him since he was 2 1/2. Even then his mum knew something wasn't right. He'd had one of his MMR jabs and with all the reporting and the now completely discredited report of course it was natural to try and find a reason. When he was diagnosed at about 3 1/2 and all the indications and signs it was like ticking a dozen boxes.

Anyway, he's doing really well but with the benefit of hindsight it was easy to try and blame something. To find a reason. But even before he had his MMR his mum, now with four other kids, now knows that something wasn't right even before he had his MMR. No eye contact, not turning to her voice and that kind of thing. I know the MMR jab had nothing whatsoever to do with his Autism. And so does she.

[speedpimp]

Adults would be immune to the problem since their brains are already fully developed.

And this is why he is concerned.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I personally don't believe vaccines cause autism; however, I get the feeling a lot of anti-anti-vaxxers believe that government and drug companies can do no wrongs...

My wife has no issues with vaccines for my daughter but would avoid vaccines for our cats whenever possible. A lot of cat vaccines are rumored to cause cancer later on... Is there a good way to prove this? Nope. But better safe than sorry. Further, luckily we can keep our cats at home at all times and not let them goto school...

Anyway, if certain vaccine is unsafe, I'm sure well eventually figure it out. However, I can totally see how drug companies may play into parents fear by working with corrupted govt officials to mandate unnecessary vaccines for profit...

[Rare White Ape]

however, I get the feeling a lot of anti-anti-vaxxers believe that government and drug companies can do no wrongs...

I don't think that anyone who has rationally explored the pro- or anti-vaccine case has ever said anything like this about drug companies or governments.

[overpowered]

http://55.media.tumblr.com/9bfa0d2238df445a45e4c2bca3342796/tumblr_inline_ns4m0fSBAU1qfxb0n_500.gif

[G'day Mate]

I personally don't believe vaccines cause autism ...

"Personally believe"? Opinion and belief shouldn't even be part of the conversation.

[Crazed_Insanity]

How can you be so certain?

If there's a 1/1000000 chance of causing autism, you'd be wrong and my personal belief would still be right.

[Rare White Ape]

Nah, not like that.

You need to see subjects like this from the cold, harsh, unemotional view of science. Set aside your beliefs and go with the evidence.

Your belief may well be in-line with what the evidence says, and it follows that you might be comfortable allowing your belief to guide your judgement. But as soon as you do that, your beliefs take over your judgement and stop you seeing things objectively. This will be OK until something new comes along and challenges your personal beliefs, at this point your brain will enter a belief vs. evidence deathmatch and the pay-per-view channel will be selling it for $40.

We are all guilty of it:

“Those who believe they could never embrace an irrational belief, already have.”

–Guy P. Harrison

[21Kid]

http://55.media.tumblr.com/9bfa0d2238df445a45e4c2bca3342796/tumblr_inline_ns4m0fSBAU1qfxb0n_500.gifAlso, the *1* positive result was thoroughly disproven and the doctor who published it lost his license.

[Crazed_Insanity]

As aircraft engineer, I can't even guarantee with certainty that you will survive your next flight. We believe we've made the planes as safe as possible, chances are, majority of folks survive commercial flights, but it's always possible that we failed to foresee something which resulted in a failure... Then hopefully we learn from that and make commercial aviation even safer.

We don't laugh at folks who are afraid to fly as irrational dumbasses. At least I don't.

Furthermore, engineering is making/designing from scratch. We know exactly how each part of the plane works. We won't incorporate anything we don't understand. We also only design planes to take advantage of part of aerodynamics/physics that we understand and avoid the stuff that we don't quite understand or found undesirable...

Unlike the human body..., I don't think we have complete understanding of the human body yet. It's complexity is probably several orders of magnitude more complicated than anything we've ever engineered.

For scientists to claim that they know exactly how certain drugs/vaccines will do in various human bodies just can't be trusted. I'm pretty sure no scientists' willing to make such claims, but some of you seem to trust these scientists more than they trust themselves!

[overpowered]

How often do planes crash due to design flaws? From what I gather, that's relatively unusual anymore.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Space shuttle was supposed to be 99.999999999999% safe on paper.

But operating outside of it's design environment has cost us 2 shuttles. We're not know it alls, our designs also have limits.

Anyway, commercial aviation is super safe, I believe you will survive your next flight, I just can't guarantee it for certain.

[overpowered]

You're never going to achieve 100% but I get the impression that modern planes, especially commercial airlines are particularly good. When there's a problem, it's usually a maintenance problem or a pilot problem.

The shuttle's another level though and keep in mind that it was designed over 40 years ago. It was dealing with much more extreme conditions than an airplane.

As I understand it, the decision to operate the Challenger outside of the design environment was a human decision at the time of the launch. That's not a design failure. It's an operating failure. Perhaps the design could have been changed to handle the environment, but the fact is, someone pointed out before the launch that there was a problem and he was overruled, with disastrous results.

Columbia was a design problem. The shielding really shouldn't be coming off. On the other hand, management decided to have them re-enter the atmosphere when it might have been possible for them to stay out and try to fix the problem or possibly even send up Atlantis to rescue them.

[Dicknose]

Not a good comparison, planes are extremely complex, have to work over a long lifespan, require ongoing maintainance and need many highly trained people to operate them.
Look at the cost to make and flight one.

A vaccine is not that complex, not hard to make and doesn't have much to go wrong.
It's not a good comparison to planes or spacecraft that are some of the most complex things made by humans.

The complexity is with the human body.
But if that is the only argument then you could say they same for any drug we put into the body, any over the counter drug or vitamin supplement.

All the fuss over vaccine and we have people die from reactions to illegal party drugs (with illegal mostly implying production quality is dubious)

[Crazed_Insanity]

Any western medication has side effects, some immediate and some longer term. Further, does benefit beat placebo and possible side effects? Only then will the drug/vaccine be approved.

Could there be financial pressure on drug companies and corrupted regulators looking the other way? Even if we could rule the above out, again human bodies are incredibly complex and it's possible for us to miss something.

Not saying we should ban peanuts just because few are allergic to it, but certainly don't need to see them as dumbasses. Even if they are dumbasses, somebody still need to educate them rather than just looking down on them.

Anyway, like I said, when it comes to pets, I am an antivaxxer! Their vaccines are not as stringently regulated as human vaccines. Plus we don't allow our cats out... So it's easier to play it safe...

Besides vaccines, it's now known that dry food can cause diabetes and other issues for cats, their diets should be meat not grain, but vets have no issues selling prescription dry food for diabetic cats! WTF!

Point is... We certainly should give professionals benefit of the doubt, but the only person I'd trust completely is Jesus himself.

[G'day Mate]

I think car brakes are a better analogy.

The anti-vax mentality would be that brakes can't always prevent a crash and in some cases actually cause them, therefore you should be free to have them or not. From that, if a brake-person's car has brakes they should also not need about the no-brake cars?

[G'day Mate]

Just got a whooping cough vaccine. Didn't catch autism. Take that, anti-vaxxers

So there was a case of whooping cough in the office this week - good thing I and the other expectant father got vaccinated!!

[21Kid]

I'd still stay clear... You can still be a carrier, and pass it on, if you are vaccinated.




Congrats!!! :D

[G'day Mate]

Oh, totally!

And thank you

[SportWagon]

I thought that was a new announcement but then I checked and discovered I had seen your announcement in the \m/ METAL \m/ (http://gtxforums.net/showthread.php?566-m-METAL-m&p=60396&viewfull=1#post60396) thread. But, anyway, belated congratulations.

[overpowered]

Seriously Bobby D?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/13/robert-de-niro-there-is-a-link-between-vaccines-and-autism/

[Crazed_Insanity]

The problem is that the exact cause of autism is unknown.

Children also finished most of their vaccines by around age 4... and they can only be accurately diagnosed with autism at age 4...

So even if autism can't possibly be caused by vaccines, it may seem that way by parents.

It'd be nice if scientists/doctors can figure out the cause for autism first or at least help prevent autism from happening, then we won't have this anti-vax issue to deal with.

I heard that early intervention with kids who showed autism symptoms can reverse the effects of autism. Parents and doctors can't just sit around and wait until their kids are 4... once diagnosed, it'll be impossible to reserve the condition.

So the key to squash the anti-vax battle isn't to just tell parents with autism kids that "no! vaccines don't cause autism!!!"

Let's find ways to reduce autism cases or learn more about autism first. Until then, the battle will continue.

[thesameguy]

Yeah, this cat is out of the bag. Once that connection was suggested as an explanation for autism desperate parents latched on. The only way to dispel that is to replace it with a new connection... just disproving the existing one isn't going to cut it.

[Rare White Ape]

The problem is that the exact cause of autism is unknown.

Children also finished most of their vaccines by around age 4... and they can only be accurately diagnosed with autism at age 4...

So even if autism can't possibly be caused by vaccines, it may seem that way by parents.

It'd be nice if scientists/doctors can figure out the cause for autism first or at least help prevent autism from happening, then we won't have this anti-vax issue to deal with.

The cause of autism may be genetic mutation.

After this it should be case closed, but idiot parents want to find something or someone to blame and vaccines are a popular and convenient target.

Another issue is the problem with giving two different sides of an argument equal air time or column inches, in the interest of fairness in a debate. But the problem isn't a wishy-washy grey area thing that requires dicussion to eek out the issues. It's a definite conclusion and giving the anti-vax side air time is pointless and harmful.

For example, if someone was in the news arguing that apples are blue, why give that person equal air time to those who argue that they're red or green?

[overpowered]

There actually is an increased risk of autism when the parents are older and when there is a large difference in the ages of the parents (Bobby D).

[Drachen596]

I wonder how many anti-vaccination people are people who support the science on global warming.

[Rare White Ape]

I wonder how many anti-vaccination people are people who support the science on global warming.

I have a friend who is a naturopath (a slightly medical branch of freak science) who jumped onto a preliminary study (here (http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/840873)) that suggested that fluoridated drinking water could be linked to hyperthyroidism. It's just an early study and nothing is concrete yet.

Same friend is all over organic food and is fully anti-GMO despite the mounds of evidence that show that organic food is of little benefit over cheaper conventionally farmed food, and that GMO crops show no risk to the environment or human health.

So yeah, I've noticed a giant bias along those lines among these sorts of people. Whatever agrees with their worldview usually takes precedence over things that may be true but challenge their picture of the world.

[overpowered]

https://www.facebook.com/photo/download/?fbid=1281703591858083

[G'day Mate]

In the absence of a clapping emoticon, :up:

[21Kid]

In the absence of a clapping emoticon, :up:
:toast:

[Crazed_Insanity]

This debate really shouldn't be science based IMHO. Not that there's anything wrong with science, but fact is science cannot answer why we have autism. Since scientists don't have a full understanding of autism, how can we be 100% sure that vaccines cannot possibly cause it?

But anyway, this issue should be argued from the public safety's perspective. If you place your child's safety above other kids, then feel free to lock your child up in your safety bubble at home. Do not let the kid venture into public spaces. If you can agree to this condition, then you are allowed to not vaccinate your kid. We should acknowledge the possible risks associated to the vaccines, if you're unwilling to take that risk, then live in a bubble to be truly safe... for you and for others.

I'm anti-vaxxer for cats. Vaccines for cats are not as thoroughly tested and has proven to cause cancer years down the road... even some vets don't recommend all the shots. So we don't vaccinate our cats, but we also don't let our cats venture outside. If you want your kid to live like that, then you can not vaccinate your kid, otherwise, this is just one of many risks parents have to take for their children. You can't be selfish to put your child's safety above other kids. Other kids are taking the shots... and they're not all turning into autistic kids.

Anyway, scientists should try to get a better handle on autism. Or perhaps avoid getting all the shots done by 4... either make them earlier or later... because 4 is when one can be diagnosed with autism.

It's really too bad that the shot schedule coincide with when a kid can be diagnosed with autism.

[Rare White Ape]

Duuuuuuuude.

Everything we know about vaccines says that it is impossible for them to cause autism.

Everything we know about autism says it is impossible for it to be caused by vaccines.

I really wish you'd engage your brain sometimes before thinking, concluding, and typing your barfed-out conclusions. Fuck.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I did not make the conclusion that vaccines cause or could cause autism.

I was just saying that even with everything that we know, there are still things that are unknown.

Anti vaxxers also don't care what you know because they think they know better and there's a conspiracy going on.

That's why I said this argument shouldn't be based on what we (scientifically) know, but rather just focus on public safety.

[G'day Mate]

Science doesn't have absolute answers for very many things at all (mostly just mathematical proofs), but it does have very, very, very, very good answers for an awful lot of things, including whether there is a link between vaccines and autism (not to mention global warming, evolution and the existence of ... never mind there's another thread for that ;)).

[Crazed_Insanity]

Not trying to argue against science, but you have to realize that people not only have a rational brain but also an emotional brain. And emotional brain usually win out.

As an aerospace engineer, I can also vouch that commercial aviation is amazingly safe, yet I can't really give you 100% guarantee that you won't crash on your next flight. And for a person who's afraid of flight, the statistics of planes being 99.9999999999% safe just won't be enough.

If they don't want to fly, give them other options to consider... Likewise with vaccines.

[G'day Mate]

Jonah was vaccinated today, yay :)

[G'day Mate]

Oh, Billi, that would be fine but the problem is that people's decision to not vaccinate puts others in danger, and that danger is far more serious than the risks associated with vaccines. It's a selfish, irresponsible choice.

[SportWagon]

Well, hey real congratulations G'day. Jonah cannot be very old, can he? Not too many other mentions of "Jonah" in theses forums. So I'm posting here.

[G'day Mate]

Six weeks :)

[novicius]

:up: :up:

My boy Cedric (now 14 months) is up-to-date on all his shots. He's a trooper.

https://c8.staticflickr.com/8/7337/27827166415_44b6d09e13_b.jpg

[21Kid]

:D Looks like he's planning to do... something. :erm:

[Crazed_Insanity]

Oh, Billi, that would be fine but the problem is that people's decision to not vaccinate puts others in danger, and that danger is far more serious than the risks associated with vaccines. It's a selfish, irresponsible choice.

I'm not disagreeing with that.

Give parents the choice to not vaccinate their kids, but let them know the consequence of their action... that is they cannot take their kids to public places. Their kids will have to live in their own 'bubble'...

That's why I said this thing should be argued from a public safety point of view.

If you wish to place the safety of your kid above other kids, you'll have to provide a 'bubble' for your kids to live in. Should your kid end up causing some health problems for the public outside of this 'bubble', then you'll be responsible for all the damages.

If a nation has public healthcare, it'd also be nice for the government to not only pick up all medical/therapy tabs for autistic/special kids, but also develop good programs prior to age 4 to minimize these incidences.

Gotta look at things from the big picture...

Give people the 'choice', but let them know the consequences. (Should parents failed to provide appropriate "bubble" for their unvaxed kid, then the other choice we can give to such parents is whether to stay in the country or move out. If they still cannot make up their minds, then it'd be living inside prison, or not? ;)) Give parents options and make sure they understand all the fine prints.

[novicius]

:D Looks like he's planning to do... something. :erm:
Should I 'Shop a warehouse blowing up behind him or something? :lol:

[21Kid]

Exceeeeellleeeeent!!! :devil:

[FaultyMario]

Bruno's missing a couple of his reimmunizations. But only one of those two is my fault.

[overpowered]

Why are there so many reports of autism following vaccination? A mathematical assessment

https://thelogicofscience.com/2016/06/28/why-are-there-so-many-reports-of-autism-following-vaccination-a-mathematical-assessment/