Interesting ruling from the World Anti-Doping Agency

[G'day Mate]

This is all over the news in Australia because it concerns our top level Aussie Rules Football. In 2013 one of the teams was investigated with respect to supplements players were given by the team doctors. They were found (by the league) to have been giving the players a banned substance and the club was fined a couple of million bucks, excluded from the finals and their senior coach and general manager were suspended. The Australian Sports Anti-Doping Authority then launched an investigation into the individual players and found them not guilty, however the World Anti-Doping Agency appealed that decision in the Court of Arbitration for Sport (in Switzerland I believe) and that appeal was upheld.

So yesterday it was decided that, for players given substances by team doctors, nutritionists, etc, "I was just following orders" isn't a good enough excuse. Some people think that it's right, some think it's unfair. I can see arguments for both sides.

Of the 34 players investigated and suspended (teams typically have a squad of 40), 17 are still active in the top level (AFL) and 12 of those still play for Essendon.

[Dicknose]

It's not right if the doctors are part of the official system.
These players are told to check everything with the team officials, they can't be expected to have to double check the team is not cheating.
I think the codes in Australia need to add some support and have a doctor or two that is independent of the teams but employed by the sport, so players can have access to independent advice and can do so openly.

[Freude am Fahren]

If they can prove the players know what they are taking, regardless of how much pressure is put on them by the team to take it, I think they should be held accountable. If the team lies and tricks the players into taking banned substances, then no, they shouldn't, at least not completely.

[G'day Mate]

One of the things that came out of it was that there was no informed consent. If they told them "we're giving you A" while giving them B then at least the player can prove they were deceived. I don't know whether the players asked what they were being given or whether they just did what they were told, but it seems the players had no idea what was going in to them.

A few players did opt out of the injections - can guess what they're doing this year?

[George]

Working the fast-food takeout window at a McNasty's near you?

[IMOA]

The doctor that was involved with the program at Essendon was also involved with a rugby league club, albeit for a much shorter period time. This article explains a bit why the Essendon players received a harsh sentence and explain why I have no sympathy for them.

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/essendon-cas-verdict-why-the-bombers-penalty-was-so-different-to-cronullas-20160111-gm3v7n.html

[G'day Mate]

Working the fast-food takeout window at a McNasty's near you?

They're playing footy.


The doctor that was involved with the program at Essendon was also involved with a rugby league club ...

Oh, same guy? Well well well.

[Rare White Ape]

Are they penalising the club here or the individual players? Because it looks like the penalties apply to the players in this instance, but the club was organising the supplements.

If it was the club that was giving the players banned substances without them knowing (and this can be proven), then perhaps the rules should be adjusted to limit the players from penalty for things that are not fully in their control.

They would still need to be removed from play for a period of time until it can be shown that they aren't artificially enhanced by the drugs, but without penalty, while the club cops the fine or loses points or is stripped of titles, etc. Narmsane?

[IMOA]

That's not an excuse for elite athletes, the article addresses this but the key points are

An elite athlete specifically has to take rsponsibility for what they put inside them otherwise 'but I didn't know what the doctor was giving me' would pretty much be an iron clad defence in every case.

When undergoing drug testing the players were asked about any supplements they were taking, even though they were getting stuck with more needles than a junky they said none.

At least some of the athletes saw the drug name on the vial and it was a banned drug.

[LHutton]

I guess the problem is that it's too easy just to claim you didn't know. It's a bit like speeding. "Officer I didn't know, I didn't check my speedometer... it may be faulty etc."

[Dicknose]

But how do they check? They are told to check with the club doctor.
Going with the speeding analogy, it's like they check their speed with the local sherif, who is the one lying. Then the Feds bust them for speeding.

Again, I think this is a big call for independent doctors to be available.
It will discourage clubs from hiding stuff and give the players protection. They don't have to use the protection, but harder to say "I didn't know" if you had an option that is free and can be used openly without reproductions from the club.

The players probably knew something was going on. But it's very easy in this sort of environment to manipulate people into doing something without them knowing its against the rules.

[LHutton]

How does anyone check? How does the doctor check? You find out the source, look at the ingredients.

On the speeding analogy, it's really like someone changing a 50 to a 150 by way of graffiti. You just read up on it and know. And Christ, if you're being given fucking anabolic steroids you'll just fucking notice anyway. It's like fuck, I'm superman suddenly, wonder how that happened.

[IMOA]

But how do they check? They are told to check with the club doctor.
Going with the speeding analogy, it's like they check their speed with the local sherif, who is the one lying. Then the Feds bust them for speeding.

Again, I think this is a big call for independent doctors to be available.
It will discourage clubs from hiding stuff and give the players protection. They don't have to use the protection, but harder to say "I didn't know" if you had an option that is free and can be used openly without reproductions from the club.

The players probably knew something was going on. But it's very easy in this sort of environment to manipulate people into doing something without them knowing its against the rules.

Again, elite athletes, they responsibility is on them to make sure. I'd also dispute the idea that they're told to ask the club doctor because club doctors and the like have had a very long history of handing out banned substances, they're one of the worst people to ask.

It would be easy for me to check if something was banned, I could ask my local GP. It would be a hell of a lot easier for an elite athlete with a support team of a manager, advisers etc whose entire livelihood depended on not taking something banned to find out if something was banned.

It seems a bit strange to us but knowing some people under this regime it's drilled into you very early. This is one of the downsides of elite sport, you have to watch what you take, there's lots of drugs that we take even for garden variety stuff like a cold that they can't, they have to tell the drug testing agency where they are at any point in time, someone can knock on their door at any time and ask them to piss in a bottle and if you're late to your mothers 60th birthday and just pissed well tough luck, you're going to be very late. Ask any elite athlete what they think of the excuse 'but the nice man in the white coat said it was OK'.

Counter point is Cronulla. Dank lasted 1 month there before they kicked him out and when ASADA turned up for the investigation they admitted fault and took their penalty. Essendon didn't kick Dank out, refused to admit any culpability and refused any sort of compromise for 3 years. Now they pay the penalty and I have 0 sympathy.

[Dicknose]

I know NRL guys are told to check with the team doctor, in case their GP does not know what is on the banned list.
Other sports could be different, most individual sports or amateur sports don't have that team structure or regular access to a team doctor.
These players may have known and thought, hey everyone's doing it.

Still think the penalty for the club should be harsher, they are in an immense position of power over the players.
Maybe the club should be banned as long as the players get.
Yes that hurts other players, but if they are down a good slab of the squad it might be best.
Would seem very unfair to the players to get 1 year suspension, but the club goes on.
The players didn't do this on their own initiative.

[LHutton]

Another thing to point out is that pro-athletes, or even serious amateur athletes are very tuned in to their bodies and the performance thereof and even subtle differences stick out, like in regular meals, whether it's their first, second day or third day on training, the temperature, the air density, the altitude, whether there's a full moon..... It's extremely likely they'd know if they'd taken a banned substance, even without reading anything.