Nintendo Switch (was: Nintendo NX)

[Rare White Ape]

News everywhere is stating that the next Nintendo console, currently codenamed NX, will be out in March 2017, along with the next Zelda title.

Looks like I'll be skipping the WiiU :up:

[thesameguy]

What's a "Nintendo?"

[Jason]

I love Nintendo's properties and many of their 1st party titles, but they've mishandled multiple consoles in a row, and I'm not sure if I'm willing to part with money on another one anytime soon.

[Rare White Ape]

I tend to agree; the Wii had a shit-tonne of untapped potential, especially online, but Nintendo has always been very conservative in this regard given the general age of its userbase. Apparently Splatoon and Smash Bros. are massively popular online, but I've never seen this in action on a WiiU myself so I can't comment.

I doubt we'll ever see Xbox or PS levels of "things to do on your console that aren't games" because it's literally all about the games for Nintndo, and yours and my opinion of mishandling a console is very different to Nintendo's opinion, given that they pretty much tend to print their own money (all of the money) every time they release a AAA title.

[21Kid]

I skipped the Wii because I played it a few times and had enough fun. It seemed that happened to most people that bought it.
Like RWA said, there was a lot of potential. It just wasn't sold to the public enough, on what those benefits were.

I only own a WiiU because I got it for free. I picked up a few of the good Wii games I missed. Yay backwards compatibility. My son enjoys it. And I like that he can play games on the touchscreen while I use the big screen. But, there's not much there besides that.

[Kchrpm]

I doubt we'll ever see Xbox or PS levels of "things to do on your console that aren't games" because it's literally all about the games for Nintndo
The Wii U has a web browser, several streaming video apps, one streaming music app, weather and news service(s), its own social media site (which is focused on the games), and used to have a second-screen TV service that included chat and trivia/prediction games. It's multitasking is not at XBox One levels, but the dual screen interface does have its conveniences (watching a race live stream on the TV while the GamePad has timing and scoring, finding the next YouTube video to watch without interrupting the current one, being able to walk to another room with the GamePad so you don't miss anything).

It does not, however, have any kind of party chat system, only dedicated video calls (that you will only receive if you are also in the video call app when you are called, so you basically have to schedule it via other means), or any kind of cross-game invite system.

[thesameguy]

The lack of decent 2nd party titles is my barrier. Nintendo's titles have been very good. I think the hardware and OS are solid and innovative. Unfortunately I can't justify a console for one or two games. (I have three for the xbone. Nyah.)

[Kchrpm]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing that the Wii U is competitive and should have been successful this generation. In the early stages, Nintendo made it seem like the Wii U would be close enough in power to the (yet to be detailed) new XBox and Playstation, and hoped it would be popular enough that the draw of increased sales would make third parties port their main franchises to it.

But it was not as powerful as people hoped, and therefore not as easy to port for, and therefore there were fewer third party games, and therefore there were fewer sales, and therefore there were even fewer third party games, and so on. Games from third parties that had been announced, shown, or even playable (Ghost Recon) at E3 during the Wii U's reveal week were gone, with nothing in their place.

I don't regret the system purchase, as I have had a ton of fun with it, but it is not what I had expected it would be at announcement or hoped it would be at launch. I don't know what to expect for the NX (just being a 4K Wii U doesn't seem like enough to draw third parties and consumers back in, unless it's priced lower than the upcoming console upgrade kits, and I don't know what else it could be).

[thesameguy]

I think the porting issue you mentioned is about spot-on and we all know what bad ports due to systems.

I wonder if they'd have been better off with something like Android compatibility than trying to lure developers into porting xbone titles.

[Kchrpm]

No, for a few reasons.

1) Part of the strength of Android compatibility is being able to build in that ecosystem. That ecosystem is increasingly reliant on Google Play Services (partially for Google's benefit, partially because it means we all get updates to things faster since they don't have to go through manufacturers and carriers for implementation), and many games use Google Play Services for various back-end things. Unless they're building a full on Android, Google Play-compatible box, they're not going to get that functionality.
2) It will be far too easy to just see it as "an Android device," of which there are dozens/hundreds, most of which will undercut it on price.
3) They will be dangling dangerously close to just being a game developer, and the transition from console maker to purely game developer has not gone well for anyone so far.
4) There's a much smaller leap in porting a small game to a big console than a big game to a small console, so if the demand arises, they will not be in a bad position.

Jason and I have discussed previously and pretty much came to the conclusion that their best bet is to have the same kind of architecture as the current systems (which are very PC-like), with a significant power bump, some noteworthy idea/difference (IMO keeping the GamePad would fill that void), and an astonishing price (aka significantly undercutting whatever the price of the upgraded consoles will be). We just don't really see how they will pull off awesome specs, GamePad/whatever *and* great price, and barring all three, I don't know how they make a big dent in their behemoth competition.

[Jason]

^ yup

[thesameguy]

Yeah, that all makes sense. I definitely see the logic.

I will bet that "great price" isn't *critical* if they can offer the other components. Nintendo still has a strong brand, and I'll bet there are a lot of people who'd almost be in it for Mario Kart or Zelda and "real" ports would push them over the edge. Although, based on past performance I'm not entirely sure how you convince people of the truth. Maybe Nintendo should take a cue from Nvidia and AMD, and "sponsor" a 2nd party cross-platform title. A poor example*, but making GTAVI an NX Day One bundle with short-term exclusivity would do wonders for that.

* Just trying to think of a big cross-platform independent release.

[Rare White Ape]

Whatever third-party game devs have to do, its not simply a matter of trying to fit PS4/Xbone games into the Nintendo platform. Since the opening days of the GameCube, and perhaps going back to the beginning of the PlayStation, Nintendo's consoles have increasingly been seen as their own ecosystem, and as a result cross-platform games appearing on Nintendo consoles has been incredibly rare.

So a developer can't just invest in one game that can appear on four platforms (if you include PC, which is the way that the PS & XB have been going). They have to make a game for three platforms, and an entirely different game just for Nintendo.

I base this argument on the fact that hardware for Nintendo is very different to the other three, which are now almost the same, and that the control input is vastly different than what it was in the 'Cube era, so the entire user experience is unique.

In the past everyone in the console world used to copy Nintendo, nowadays Nintendo does its own thing and everyone else just sort of ignores them while they all do something else. It's as if Nintendo innovated everyone else out of the console sandpit, so they went to play in the PC sandpit. I don't think it's a bad thing. I just don't see the two sandpits as competing against each other any more.

[Kchrpm]

Indeed, Nintendo needs to get their hardware in-line with the PC/PS4/XBox One architecture so that porting is simple. Back in the GameCube/PS2/XBox days, all three of the major consoles were quite different from each other, despite having similar levels of overall power, so each needed separate versions to a greater extent than now. There were still plenty of cross-platform releases, but they were storage limited (since the Cube didn't use full-size discs), and Nintendo was still more focused on marketing their own first party output and helping third parties.

The Wii was an anomaly in many ways that they were very unlikely to fully replicate, and in attempting to do so only replicated the slow days and not the explosive initial sales.

[21Kid]

Maybe they'll make it full VR. I have a feeling they're not going to try and keep up with the Joneses... They have always done their own thing.

[Kchrpm]

In June of 2015, Miyamoto said that VR didn't fit Nintendo's current philosophy. In February of this year, they said they were "looking into it." Either epic fake out, or they're not really that interested.

*keeps looking*

http://www.theverge.com/2016/2/2/10893266/nintendo-virtual-reality-vr-return

Nintendo is reportedly exploring a return to virtual reality, with the company's president Tatsumi Kimishima describing VR as "interesting technology" in a recent earnings calls. According to a report from the Financial Times, the Japanese firm says it's researching virtual reality but has no specific plans to launch any products any time soon.

[Kchrpm]

Sometimes I have to remind myself how much hardware innovation Nintendo has actually done, because I think pre-Wii and it doesn't seem like much, but post-NES and pre-Wii, they did introduce shoulder buttons, analog sticks, 4 controller ports and RF wireless controllers (or maybe just first party ones?) to the home console market, IIRC.

[21Kid]

Why only post NES? The NES invented the D-pad. And they pretty much invented the portable market.
Hell, they invented VR with the Virtual Boy waaaaaaaay ahead of it's time. :lol:

Apparently they even had a Famicom modem (Japan only) in 1988. Never knew that before.

[Kchrpm]

Why only post NES? The NES invented the D-pad.
I did not know that :up:

And Virtual Boy doesn't count because it was a complete and utter failure ;)

[21Kid]

Only because technology wasn't up to speed with N's vision. :cool:

[Jason]

The Virtual Boy was something else :lol:

I used it once, went WTF, and never again haha. Red and black wireframe graphics, and the thing had to be sitting on a table haha.

[Rare White Ape]

I'll do my best here, but I'll list as many innovations or firsts as I can think of, which Nintendo was involved with.

Pre-NES:
First platformer (Donkey Kong)
Game&Watch

NES Era:
Side-scrolling platformers
D-pad
On board battery save file storage (Legend of Zelda)
POWERGLOVE!!!1 -- it's so bad
The first GameBoy came out in this period
First side-scrolling racing game (Excitebike), which is now a huge genre on Android and iOS
VR in the VirtualBoy (bleh)

SNES Era:
Shoulder buttons
Mode 7 graphics
Nintendo worked with Sony on a CD-Rom expansion, which eventually became the seed for Sony to develop the PlayStation
GameBoy Color and Super GameBoy adapter

N64 Era:
Analogue stick
Vibration feedback
First 3D platformer (Super Mario 64)
First good console FPS (Goldeneye)
Four controller ports
First console to seriously try online (N64 DD)
Software emulators running on console hardware, which would eventually find its way onto the GameCube and the Wii Virtual Console (Goldeneye and Donkey Kong 64)

GameCube era:
Ummm, it's purple?
First 1st-party wireless controller
Nintendo DS, with touch controls

Wii era:
Motion control

WiiU era:
2nd screen for gaming away from the TV (although this is inspired by Sony's Remote Play with PS3/PSP, but it's the first time it has come as part of the package)

[thesameguy]

Don't forget about the co-processed games starting with (I think) Starfox on the SNES. That was some crazy stuff!

[Drachen596]

Virtual Boy was a good idea... but the thing gave me splitting headaches after playing it.

Also apparently there was some way to head mount it like the new VR stuff is.


Also Game cube era had a way for you to connect the Advance SP to the system for use in mini games and second screen stuff.

[Rare White Ape]

Oh yeah; the FX chip and the GBA link cable.

[Kchrpm]

http://www.polygon.com/2016/5/2/11568964/nintendo-nx-price-loss


"We are not thinking of launching the hardware at a loss," said Nintendo president Tatsumi Kimishima during an investor meeting last week. "Selling at a loss at launch would not support the business."

Kimishima added that Nintendo is developing the NX hardware with that mission in mind, suggesting that the company is looking to keep costs down for the console's components and manufacturing process.

Not surprising, just confirming. Despite the fact that they are their own biggest developer/publisher, they won't take a loss on hardware sales in an effort to increase game sales.

[thesameguy]

They really need to figure out what it is they're trying to do. I think that sad part is that now more than ever video game quality is not directly tied to system power and now Nintendo suggests they want to compete on specs. Very strange. They could probably put an iPhone in an Nintendo box and people would buy it... why try to compete with Xbox and Playstation when casual gaming is at its peak?

[Kchrpm]

They have a casual gaming device, it's a 3DS. They've released more games for that than the Wii U by a long shot, and they have already announced that they're going to make more games for iOS/Android (Fire Emblem and Animal Crossing at least).

The Wii U is arguably already a casual game system, but people just end up playing casual games on their iPads. Nintendo has said before that they were surprised by the take rate on tablets, and their technological advancement, and that had a negative result on the Wii U's consumer impression and sales.

So you take one last big shot at the home console market, fire all your guns, and this is pretty likely to be the last generation of traditional home consoles (by the next rev we may be streaming everything directly to the TV, which is already available on Samsungs I believe).

[thesameguy]

Agreed that's what they're doing, but I can't figure out why... when you have a big name in Market A and Market A is doing really well, and when you have a shit name in Market B and lots of people are predicting the end of Market B, why choose that time to asset yourself in Market B instead of focusing all your energy on getting to A before more people become more entrenched. Just doesn't make sense to me. Even Microsoft, one of two players in B wants out, why on earth do you want to get in there? It's like getting helo'd in to the Titanic just as night falls!

[21Kid]

Haven't people been saying that the home console market is done for 10+ years now?

[Kchrpm]

tsg-
So far Nintendo is claiming that the NX will be a combination of the two markets in a way. The comments they made around the initial announcement was that they were struggling to keep up development on two separate consoles, handheld and home, at the same time, and that the NX would somehow bridge the gap. They would not and have not gone into greater detail, other than saying they felt it was not a replacement for either device but rather a new type of device (they said the same thing about the DS before it killed the Game Boy Advance or whatever).

There is every possibility that the NX will end up being a portable gaming device (a GamePad with the guts inside of it), or that whatever form of home console it takes, it is merely a stopgap until they put the same guts into a mobile device.

Or it could be a streaming device!

People have been claiming the console/PC market is dying because of mobile gaming, but console/PC games have responded by following the movie industries response to better TV and hardware: separate yourself into huge blockbusters and cheap, unique indies.

The thing coming to take console lunch money in the future, though, isn't going to be hamstrung by the controls, or the screens, or the games. Once streaming services have matured, both technology and pricing, it will do to TV and movies what Netflix has done. You're having nearly the exact same experience you had before, but now instead of sticking a disc into a local box, you're getting it streamed straight to your TV. Latency and bandwidth will become even less of an issue than it is now, and with the predominance of online-connected console and PC games, even "normal" games will require a strong connection.

And if your streaming box has enough power to decode 1080p or even 4K content on the fly, I'd guess it will handle some simple single player games installed right on the box, just to appease people who say it's useless w/o internet (similar to how a Roku can play things off of USB).

So look forward to the future of console gaming, where the console is just a streaming box which can eventually be built into your TV.

[thesameguy]

tsg-
So far Nintendo is claiming that the NX will be a combination of the two markets in a way. The comments they made around the initial announcement was that they were struggling to keep up development on two separate consoles, handheld and home, at the same time, and that the NX would somehow bridge the gap. They would not and have not gone into greater detail, other than saying they felt it was not a replacement for either device but rather a new type of device (they said the same thing about the DS before it killed the Game Boy Advance or whatever).

Definitely have to give Nintendo credit for being innovative. They don't always get a good product, but it's always interesting. I'm just really trying to imagine the missing link here and can't... of course, I guess that's why I don't make bazillions of dollars in a Nintendo think tank. ;)

[Kchrpm]

To be fair, I, Jason and the rest of the internet have been thinking about it for quite a while, and I've yet to see any realistic ideas either.

[Rare White Ape]

Whatever they do, it's a sure bet that they'll be selling you copies of old Nintendo games on it as well.

[Kchrpm]

Oh of course. At most we can hope that, now with a unified account, there will be some kind of discount/transfer available for titles where they don't do any real modification.

[novicius]

Zelda + Animal Crossing + Minecraft + Online Only :sing: :sing: :sing:

( :popcorn: )

[Kchrpm]

If they can somehow make the ultimate Minecraft box, with support for Amiibo (which seems to be what is keeping them profitable at this point), perhaps they can take over the world. I have no idea what the ultimate Minecraft box would entail, though.

[Kchrpm]

WAIT! SHIT!

I figured it out.

3D Mario Maker w/Amiibo support. Mario Maker, Super Mario 3D World and Minecraft combined into one game. TURN THE MONEY PRINTERS BACK ON.

[novicius]

:lol: :up:

[GreatScawt]

Zelda + Animal Crossing + Minecraft + Online Only :sing: :sing: :sing:

( :popcorn: )

I would put some time into this for goddamn sure. That would be amazing.

[21Kid]

But... being Nintendo, they won't let you customize any characters. So everyone would be limited to Link, Mario, Luigi, Donkey Kong, Yoshi, Bowser, Kirby, Peach, etc... :(

[novicius]

That's the Animal Crossing slant: you could get custom items & clothing in AC, I believe.

[Rare White Ape]

But... being Nintendo, they won't let you customize any characters. So everyone would be limited to Link, Mario, Luigi, Donkey Kong, Yoshi, Bowser, Kirby, Peach, etc... :(

...with Mii integration.

Prolem soled.

[Rare White Ape]

So anyway here's a sweet meme I saw on Facebook today. Sick burn.

http://scontent-syd1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13139268_10153448192796447_4471102798772168067_n.j pg?oh=46e95ce721b835545fc7c1cb2dc9d198&oe=57A8C00A

[Kchrpm]

Miis (look at Smash Bros and Mario Kart!), Animal Crossing, there is precedence!

Picture Mario 64, with level creation, and Miis as player characters.

[GreatScawt]

I just figured a new Nintendo IP. New characters and miis.

[thesameguy]

How can they be miis if it's NX? Isn't it mxs?

[Kchrpm]

Nope, they are Miis on any platform. Miis are in 3DS games and their smartphone game as well.

[thesameguy]

I don't know what the word for skeumorph is when it's a word, but that's what we've got here.

[Kchrpm]

They weren't called Mii U's on the Wii U :)

[thesameguy]

Well, at least Nintendo is consistent in its not making any sense. Which, I suppose, is why they are where they are right now. :smh:

[Kchrpm]

I thought you were kidding. Do you really think it would be better if they changed what they called your universal avatar depending on what system you were viewing them?

For example, Miis are playable characters on Smash Bros for both Wii U and 3DS. Do you think they should be called different things on the Wii U version than the 3DS version?

"Mii" is just the name Nintendo gave their customizable 3D avatars. While it was based on the name of the system they originated on, I don't think they need to be updated for new systems. Podcasts haven't been changed to phonecasts despite the progression from iPods to iPhones.

[thesameguy]

I think it's short-sighted of a company to name an enduring, ostensibly device-independent component after or based on a limited-run product. Not to say it doesn't happen, but typically speaking you're better served creating durable branding rather than linking one brand to another when one of them won't survive. Of course, given the problems with the Wii brand in general, maybe there's a bigger issue at stake here.

Podcast is not a good example, since "podcast" was crowdsourced and never intended to be a brand. It's a contemporary portmanteau that happened to survive the time and find broader application. There were no grand, corporate aspirations for the technology. Until Apple assumed it and started their inevitable innovation through litigation approach to world dominance.

"Mii" is like "Edsel" and "podcast" is like "stereo." One is a brand, the other is a term that found broader applicability.

[Kchrpm]

I don't think they had any idea of the popularity of the Wii or the Mii at that time. It's a simple name that's easy to say and spell, and easy enough to stick in other things (like amiibo, Miiverse, Miitomo, etc).

I don't think anyone is going to have a problem using their Mii on whatever the NX is called. Far down the road, if things go bad for them, I doubt anyone will have an issue playing with Miis on an XBox or Playstation game. It's just Nintendo's 3D avatar. Pop quiz: what are Microsoft's 3D avatars called? what are Sony's 3D avatars called?

[thesameguy]

Microsoft's are called avatars.

No idea what Sony's are called. Never even looked.

[Kchrpm]

*checks*

The app for customizing them is called XBox Avatars, even on Windows, but it does seem they are just called Avatars and not XBox Avatars.

It seems the Playstation Home ones never made it out of Playstation Home and were never named.

So if the NX ends up being called Wii X, is it ok since Wii is the name for their line of home gaming consoles? I don't think that's what's going to happen, just trying to better understand your mindset. To me, Mii has no issue as a brand and will live on its various forms (Miiverse, amiibo, etc) until Nintendo fails for other reasons.

[thesameguy]

I hear what you're saying and academically I don't disagree. It just seems like Nintendo started developing the "ii" brand which includes Mii and Wii and Amiibo and it makes less sense when you have products like 3DS and NX. If you make bicycles and jets then sure, who cares about common branding, but when everything you make is basically video games *and* you've invested marketing time and dollars into a common universe, stick with it or dump it. Don't put yourself in a position of a fragmented product lineup - it's silly from both a consumer and corporate perspective. Whether they call the NX the Wii X or the NiiX or whatever is great, but I feel like they gotta do that. Although getting people to say neeeeks and not necks is gonna be tough. ;) Meh... whatever. Personally I think Nintendo did themselves a huge disservice with the ii branding in the first place - I think the focus should have been on Nintendo as it always had been. I think naming the console was dumb - a whole second brand to support. I think they'd be well-served moving away from it entirely. Microsoft wanted a whole separate "Xbox" brand, but they make a lot of different products. Nintendo only does one thing. They should focus on making sure people know it. My $0.02, anyway, but like I said, I'm not a paid member of their corporate think tank. ;)

[GreatScawt]

I agree the naming convention seems slightly short-sided. But I don't think its a big deal.
With that said, they need to get away from the "Wii" name. I personally think that's what killed them with the Wii U. I'm not sure the casual market realized it was a new console from Nintendo.

[thesameguy]

Definitely rowing that boat! And I'm thinking they know it too, which is why "NX" is getting tossed around. I think it does signal a move away from the Wii name, which is why (if I wasn't clear) it seems to me "ii" was short-sighted. Unfortunately when you're dealing with non-enthusiasts, you need either total differentiation, or numerals indicating a progression. Wii 2 probably would have been a better move. Maybe they should call the NX the Mii2U. :lol:

[Kchrpm]

Personally I think Nintendo did themselves a huge disservice with the ii branding in the first place - I think the focus should have been on Nintendo as it always had been.
GameBoy? GameCube? DS?

And the new system is highly unlikely to be named the NX. NX is just its codename, like Project Reality/Ultra 64 for Nintendo 64, Dolphin for GameCube, Revolution for Wii, and Project Cafe for Wii U.

I love that people think Wii->Wii U is incredibly confusing by itself, but XBox->XBox 360->XBox One was clear. Nintendo's problem was poor/limited marketing for the Wii U.

[GreatScawt]

First and foremost was the marketing. Absolutely agreed and I've yelled about that a few places online already.

When you compare them to Xbox and PlayStation, that's all Sony and Microsoft have had. Those are the brands for their gaming consoles. So adding numbers and letters to those implies more than what Nintendo did with the Wii U name. Given Nintendo's history you'd think they would have created something new entirely. But of course it also helps moreso that MS and Sony have ridiculous marketing campaigns.

[thesameguy]

Marketing can *definitely* overcome shitty naming, as your Xbox scenario suggests, but it's also important to remember that GameBoy and GameCube came from a time when Nintendo was On Top, and everyone looked to them for leadership. After the N64, they could have called the GameCube Steaming Pile of Shit and people would have bought it. Largely thanks to the Playstation, Nintendo lost their leadership. Now, Sony and Microsoft own the enthusiast game market, and they are On Top. It could have been the Xbox Steaming Pile of Shit One and it would have sold. When you're a market leader you can get away with a lot - people are waiting and paying attention. When you're the underdog addressing a less enthusiast/technical crowd, you gotta dot the I and cross the T or you're going to lose people. Fortunately or unfortunately, Nintendo self-positioned itself into the casual gaming market and their historic approach is not sufficient. They either need to come out guns blazing with a take-back-the-enthusiasts product or embrace casual gaming *fully* and get clear with their new audience. Seems like the enthusiast market may be waning, or not big enough to support more than one player and the casual gaming market is growing. I think it's good to embrace that. But you're addressing the Galaxy S7 and iPhone 6 crowd, not the Lumia 950XL crowd (HEAR THAT, MICROSOFT???).

[Kchrpm]

After the N64, they could have called the GameCube Steaming Pile of Shit and people would have bought it.
You think so? The Playstation outsold the N64 by a wide margin, 102 million to 33 million, and they were going up against a new, deep-pocketed competitor. They needed to mount a come back.

I still think the Wii U's biggest failing was the lack of a major marketing push. Nintendo is hesitant to spend that kind of money, especially when the Wii did so well mostly on word of mouth. I find it highly unlikely that they will do so, and do not really see any clear path to relevance for them that doesn't include Samsung-level marketing and astonishing value-for-hardware: two things Nintendo has never shown any interest in providing.

Simply having a good name or aiming at the right market is not going to matter. Gaming has been consumed by consumer electronics, and Nintendo is now swimming with sharks. They either need to grow some teeth or get the fuck out of the water.

[thesameguy]

Nintendo *definitely* doesn't know what it's doing in this market. I guess you could say that about a lot of Japanese electronics companies. Sony is having serious issues, it's hard to find Panasonic or Sharp products at all anymore. People don't remember the amazing shit Pioneer used to make. I don't think this big old businesses were at all prepared for convergence and they are having problems figuring out how they support themselves with only one or two multifunction devices. I don't envy the leadership of any of them!

[novicius]

Sony has been kicking ass ever since changing their platform to a PC-based architecture and dumping Cell.

[Kchrpm]

Sony has been kicking ass in gaming and getting its ass kicked in almost all other consumer electronics (they're strong in cameras, but that market is small).

[Rare White Ape]

I guess you could say that about a lot of Japanese electronics companies. Sony is having serious issues, it's hard to find Panasonic or Sharp products at all anymore. People don't remember the amazing shit Pioneer used to make.

The GFC and a 9.0 magnitude earthquake+tsunami+nuclear meltdown will do that to Japanese companies. Their economy has been hit, big time.

Pioneer pulled out of the TV game well before these events.

Nintendo still makes money like the sun makes rain.

[21Kid]

...with Mii integration.

Prolem soled.
I may be the only person... but I really dislike the Mii avatars. They are so rudimentary that they seem embarrassingly outdated. Even when the Wii debuted I thought they were pretty weak. When Sony and MS are looking into 4k gaming and virtual reality... using a character that is basic shapes and colors feels very childish. Or maybe it's just that I have kids and it reminds me of when they use colored wooden blocks. :lol:

https://images.kaplanco.com/catalog/largepopup/46995.jpg

[thesameguy]

The GFC and a 9.0 magnitude earthquake+tsunami+nuclear meltdown will do that to Japanese companies. Their economy has been hit, big time.

Pioneer pulled out of the TV game well before these events.

Nintendo still makes money like the sun makes rain.

Sony has been hurt by the disasters, but they were hurting long before them. Quarter after quarter of loss. They've had failing profits and loss of market share since 2005 or 2006. It's only recently, post disasters that they've come to understand their situation and are abandoning or dramatically reducing poor performing business units. Their situation was not caused by the disasters, it was caused by gross mismanagement in the face of a changing marketplace. They did not anticipate or properly respond to Samsung or Apple or pretty much anyone else. I think their former position was best summed up in Dudley Moore's "Crazy People" -

https://dn3pm25xmtlyu.cloudfront.net/photos/large/505478267.jpg?1327801142&Expires=1462639294&Signature=yvpaBQuv9hrOYoQYAzBUF~q6rPAFi9pSp4u7VRrF 2agKrDM7W1bwpWSlvRFeXdPG~~ZMg5c~~JSKk1agmpXBFWr~WH iHt-EcsmKCyk4FjTRtOg9iRAREbSHpOjwskYt3aK5i8PZ~H2V7KeRG xzliExzB4JS4-Vz6yXfrxGJ3izk_&Key-Pair-Id=APKAIYVGSUJFNRFZBBTA

And that was 30 years ago.

[Rare White Ape]

Oh yeah true. They won for a while with Bravia TVs then lost all that momentum when LG and Samsung when full-speed ahead.

I think now it's only PlayStation and Columbia Pictures that makes any decent money for them from consumers.

[thesameguy]

It took Sony a long, long time to realize that proprietary is an enormous burden with relatively few fruits. Maybe they're starting to see the realities of the world.

[21Kid]

They are the main investor in BluRay too, aren't they? I'm sure they get royalties on every BD sold.

[thesameguy]

They were big on CD, DVD, and Bluray. And it's very possible their insane licensing is part of what slowed bluray down. If they'd been able to lower the cost to consumers through cheaper players and cheaper media, people might have adopted faster. But higher costs may have caused more people to think harder and wait longer for better & more pure digital options. Or not. But, it's certainly possible.

[Rare White Ape]

They might have been blindsided there by movie downloads.

[thesameguy]

Sony is in the unfortunate position of being a technology company, a media company, and a content company all at once. Hard to do any of those things, much less all three simultaneously. Much like one business unit pushing minidisc while another business unit is trying to sell CDs, it'd be hard for Sony to sell DVDs and Blurays of movies while another division is trying to sell devices to download them. Of course when it comes to profits, it's really easy to look at historically profitable areas and focus on them instead of future tech, but in Sony's case not betting on smartphones, not betting on LCD, not betting on digital delivery, not betting on you name it cost them pretty much everything. The only thing in recent history they seemed to get right was the PS4... which - and there's a lesson here maybe - involved them not betting on their own technology. :P

[Kchrpm]

On the topic of a 3D Mario Maker game, Minecraft on the Wii U is getting a Super Mario pack: http://kotaku.com/super-mario-is-coming-to-minecraft-wii-u-1775492826

http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--2N7uYTgZ--/y8in1allrtpvgnubsagh.gif

[thesameguy]

Well, that looks insane.

[Kchrpm]

http://bgr.com/2016/07/26/nintendo-nx-portable-console-reveal-date/


According to a report from Eurogamer, several sources have now confirmed that Nintendo’s next-gen NX will be a portable console with its own display and detachable controllers. NX owners will also be able to connect the system to their televisions if they prefer to play their games on the big screen.

Sources claim that the console itself will feature a screen “bookended by two controller sections on each side,” which can be removed and replaced at will. A “dock station” will be used to connect the NX to a television.

Unlike most modern consoles, the NX will reportedly utilize game cartridges (hopefully sleeker than the cartridges for the Nintendo 64). The company is apparently suggesting developers use 32GB cartridges, which is especially interesting considering the fact that The Witcher 3 took up 50GB of space.

Digital downloads will likely be available to NX owners, but because of the drastic hardware and software changes, there are no plans to offer backwards compatibility.

Rumors are also hinting at it being powered by something like the Nvidia Tegra K1 or X1, which power their Shield tablet and Shield TV, respectively.

[novicius]

Super handheld? Handsheld? 4-hour battery life?

Time to look up some reviews of the nVidia Shield Tablet. ;)

[thesameguy]

Great call, competing against commodity tablets and smartphones. My forecast is grim.

[Kchrpm]

Also the Google Pixel C. As far as I know it is the only portable device using the Tegra X1.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/9972/the-google-pixel-c-review/3

GPU not nearly as powerful as an iPad Pro in offscreen benchmarks :|

[Kchrpm]

Great call, competing against commodity tablets and smartphones. My forecast is grim.

Yeah. I hope the sources are wrong and/or that there's more to this.

[thesameguy]

You know, I was borderline on it until the bit where you need a dock to connect it to the TV. I don't think Tegra+Portable is a great idea (your iPad example nails it) but the ability for people to abandon the living room and take their games to the bedroom is solid... but if you need a stupid dock to be able to do it, you've missed the boat. I completely understand the technical limitations of wireless displays, but I was hoping that was Nintendo's secret sauce. As is, it's just a less compatible iPad. Or a more portable Ouya. Or a more expensive Shield. Unimpressive.

It seems to me Nintendo hasn't had "the good hardware" very often or very long over the years. Their magic is always in the software. They should get out of the hardware market, either follow Sega or follow Steam. There is no shame riding other peoples' hardware if your talent lies in the games. I'll bet some major hardware manufacturer like Dell would happily sell an Alienware box that runs "NintendoOS."

[Kchrpm]

What I still don't understand the detachable controllers. How the hell is that going to work? Will it go from dual analog stick for one player to single analog when split up?

[Kchrpm]

I didn't realize Eurogamer had an illustration of what their sources had told them:

http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--QiL3P3m_--/c_scale,fl_progressive,q_80,w_800/bna2vdr9ujpepesben76.png

[novicius]

*So* many rechargeable batteries...

[Kchrpm]

I just pictured being on a plane and asking the person next to me if they wanted to play Mario Kart.

Presumably the controllers could/would charge just from being plugged in to the main unit. But it would still need a hoss battery.

[Kchrpm]

http://www.polygon.com/2016/7/26/12286666/nintendo-nx-design-details-fan-art

Some of the best of's from a NeoGAF thread. Includes similar old Nintendo hardware and fan art.

https://cdn0.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/6845463/micro%20vs%20system.jpg

https://cdn0.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/6845319/gafpad.jpg

https://cdn0.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/6845331/gafpad2.jpg

[thesameguy]

I simply cannot imagine Nintendo is actually doing this.

[Kchrpm]

My only thought is that they know the amiibo thing can only keep them afloat for so long, and that they are making some kind of crazy hail mary on a weird thing that they can justify putting high-res 3DS games on. I think that's all that they really want to make, the amount of work it takes to make current home console 3D games is far outside their comfort zone. They keep having to hire outside companies to help them make stuff (Breath of the Wild has a lot of help from the company that made Xenoblade Chronicles).

And if it doesn't work, the wipe their hands of it and continue their push in to mobile games.

[Rare White Ape]

In defense of Nintendo:

They've had excellent hardware in recent times. I feel that the GameCube was the best machine of its generation, only lacking in multimedia playback and online gaming, a-la PS2 and Xbox. Plus some of it's games hold up really well today, and it formed the basis of the Wii. 'Nuff said.

And their game developers are in the unique position to be able to dictate what the hardware is going to be. For better or worse, this is a good thing. Imagine Super Mario 64 (and every console FPS since then) without the analogue stick. F-Zero without Mode 7 graphics. Wii Sports without the Wii remote. I know this is only three examples, but there's probably more that I'll be able to think about well after breakfast.

Last point: suggesting that Nintendo give up the hardware business to focus on games for other consoles is akin to going to Ferrari in 1995 and telling them to stop building Formula 1 cars and just focus on road cars because they haven't won a championship in more than ten years. It's what they do and it is still worth it.

Not in defense of Nintendo:

If these rumours are true, then that leaves me skeptical that the NX will be what we hope it to be.

Totally irrational part to round out this post:

If it plays Zelda, I don't care. Still buying.

[Kchrpm]

Last point: suggesting that Nintendo give up the hardware business to focus on games for other consoles is akin to going to Ferrari in 1995 and telling them to stop building Formula 1 cars and just focus on road cars because they haven't won a championship in more than ten years. It's what they do and it is still worth it.

Hmm. Interesting comparison.

This is all tough for me because I really liked the Wii U and thought its biggest problem was marketing, and I'm not really big on portable gaming. While I'd love the ability to play Breath of the Wild anywhere in the house and without the TV on, I'm not on mass transit enough to justify a portable-focused gaming device.

[Rare White Ape]

Trust me: portable gaming is the shit. I'm really loving my 3DS while waiting out the quiet hours on a Sunday shift at work. You're right in needing a good excuse to own a portable console, as I really think that smartphones are pretty crap for real gaming.

But you also know what's the shit?

A grand gameplay experience on the couch at night with a large HDTV and surround sound. That's what home consoles are for. Splitting it's use between the loungeroom and maybe the bedroom will make both experiences suffer.

But then there's the kid aspect. Why did Nintendo put a handle on the back of the GameCube? These rumours might be pointing towards the same idea.

[Kchrpm]

A grand gameplay experience on the couch at night with a large HDTV and surround sound. That's what home consoles are for. Splitting it's use between the loungeroom and maybe the bedroom will make both experiences suffer
One of the things I loved about the Wii U was how it (usually) played just as well on the GamePad as it did on the TV. I had my choice of playing the exact same game with a gaming tablet or full on big screen + surround sound. But the range isn't strong enough for gaming outside the immediate vicinity of the living room (to be fair, it had only slightly shorter range than my XBox 360 and One controllers seem to have, at least with voice chat), and obviously the hardware itself wasn't powerful or compelling enough to get all the grand home games made for it.

But man, when it worked, did it ever work.

[Jason]

What if the dock is just the opposite of the Wii U's tech? Instead of detachable controllers, you 'stream' the game to the dock, which then feeds it into the TV. So in the end, it essentially is like the Wii U, except you can take your gamepad anywhere.

[Kchrpm]

Then I'll be a day one purchase. I will likely be anyway, though.

[thesameguy]

What if the dock is just the opposite of the Wii U's tech? Instead of detachable controllers, you 'stream' the game to the dock, which then feeds it into the TV. So in the end, it essentially is like the Wii U, except you can take your gamepad anywhere.

I could definitely see that being the case, it's just weird to me that - if so - we'll end up with yet another proprietary wireless display tech... and that annoys the crap out of me. :)

[Kchrpm]

I forgot this was a thing: http://www.extremetech.com/gaming/219008-new-patent-application-suggests-nintendos-nx-console-is-like-nothing-weve-seen-before

http://www.extremetech.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/Nintendo-Patent2.png


The patent application (20150343306) describes a system in which a primary game console connects to a supplemental device to “to increase the speed or quality of a user’s gaming experience.” This has been read by some as a reference to the kinds of console upgrade hardware we’ve seen in the past, but a closer reading of the patent reveals something very different.

Nintendo’s hypothetical console can connect to multiple supplemental devices, measure their latency and performance characteristics, and assign appropriate workloads, all with the goal of improving primary console performance. These supplemental devices are shown as being wired directly to the primary console, as below, but the actual patent text makes it clear that supplemental devices could also connect via Wi-Fi or Bluetooth.

The patent then describes how end-users might configure their own hardware and make it available for this distributed rendering during specific times of day or night, and contemplates a method of rewarding players who choose to share their hardware in this fashion with game time, credits, or other materials.

So are you docking an NX unit into something that heightens its power? Can you connect more NXs and making it even more powerful? Or is just a super robust patent for the hell of it? Probably just the last one.

[thesameguy]

Tend to agree, #3, but everyone reaches for the stars in their lame-ass patents and it could very well be #1.

If Nintendo is really intending to take on the xstationone *and* they're convinced their play has to be mobile, I could see them implementing an Alienware Amplifier-esque doodad that lets you take the CPU around with you for low-end graphics and the dock contains the higher-powered (and higher power requirement) GPU. I see the concept there, but I'm not sure it'd be that cool IRL.

Wireless displays are still pretty tricky - the tech involved in high res, low-latency (ie, stuff you need for gaming) connections barely exists. Modern limitations aren't a problem for streaming movies, but it's a different story for games... hardcore gamers still wire their controllers, that's how bad wireless is. Doing anything computational via wireless is insane to consider right now. Even wired distributed computation is touchy - it's fine for just doing math and other non-time-critical work, but for playing games? Even SLI/Crossfire has its issues.

My hangup with an external GPU is primarily the experience - someone developing for NX would have to support a docked/GPU NX as well as an undocked/CPU-only NX, and that seems rough. It's a lot of extra work, and I'm personally unconvinced it'll be a selling point. A game that looks great on the TV but looks poopy in your hands? I wouldn't play the latter. That's why my xbox is attached to a giant TV with a 1500w stereo. But, I also don't play cell phone games and I don't watch Netflix on a tablet, so I'm clearly not representative of consumers. WTFDIK? :D

[21Kid]

Meh.

I'll wait for some more solid info.

[21Kid]

"One of the things that we have to do better when we launch the NX—we have to do a better job communicating the positioning for the product."


Maybe try advertising? :|

[Kchrpm]

On more than just Disney XD :|

[Kchrpm]

http://www.idigitaltimes.com/nintendo-nx-news-prototype-console-features-62-inch-multi-touch-screen-says-tipster-552834

More rumors yaaaaaaay. I don't know why this person is renowned as a tipster, and don't want to research it, so yeah.


Now, renowned Nintendo tipster Emily Rogers shared three new tweets with new claims regarding the mysterious NX. First, a Nintendo NX prototype console features a 6.2-inch 720p multi-touch screen. However, it is unclear whether the final design will have a bigger or smaller screen size.

Second, the NX will feature a USB dock station with possibly two USB ports. Again, the number may change in the final product.

Finally, reports from game blog MCV regarding developer Game Freak bringing a game to the NX console may be true. Game Freak has been the maker of Nintendo's handheld titles and if the rumors are true, then Game Freak could likely bring a Pokémon title to the NX.

[21Kid]

720p? :? 6.2 inches?

720P? :?

[Kchrpm]

If you're playing games and not reading a bunch of text, 720p seems reasonable at that size.

[21Kid]

:| yeah. I suppose.

But, most all cell phones are 1080. The Nexus 6 is 2k. And the Note 7 which is a similar size is 4k.

And people like to compare numbers.

[Kchrpm]

The Note 7 isn't 4K, it's only 2K. Only the Sony Xperia Z5 Premium was 4K. Your point still stands, though, but only to spec nerds who were never going to buy a Nintendo-style console anyway.

I think 720p at $300-$400 w/1080p output to TVs will be ok, and I'm pretty confident that NX games will look better at 720p than iOS/Android phones games at whatever resolution.

[Rare White Ape]

Compare that to a 3DS main screen: 800x240 at 3.5 inches (4.9 on the XL).

They're basically less than doubling the size but more than doubling the vertical resolution over the 3DS. This is fine with me; the 3DS has a blocky-as-heck screen if you're spoiled by looking at Retina screens on an iPhone, but you get used to it.

The Wii U Gamepad comes in at the same size but 854x480 resolution. I've had almost zero experience looking at one of these so I've got nothing to say about what they look like, but I can only imagine that off-screen play on one wouldn't be too bad considering what it is. Literally wirelessly streamed video that was originally rendered at 1080p. I think a 720p handheld screen will be great.

Remember the main thing is what its performance will be when connected to the TV and used like a traditional games console. It really doesn't have to do much more than allow a bump in power over the current Power PC architecture that they've been using since the Gamecube. If it's going to be an Nvidia Tegra then what's the problem? I know it's equivalent to stuff that's a generation behind the latest and greatest in a mobile form-factor, but it's all about the gaaaaammmmeezzzz man. If I can play Breath of the Wild on it, then I don't care if it's being drawn in stone and I have to wait 20 seconds for the next frame to be hand carved in it with a chisel.

[Rare White Ape]

Next big rumour to hit the rumour-o-sphere: NX will be region free.

Oh I bloody hope so!

[Rare White Ape]

So, Tokyo Game Show is coming up in the next few weeks. Do we dare dream of some sort of announcement to coincide with the event?

I dearly want to wake up one morning to see the blue light on my 3DS lit up to tell of a new message from Nintendo, that there's a Direct available to watch.

http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/media/33989/4/1.jpg

GIVE IT TO ME

[21Kid]

:lol: @ picture

[Kchrpm]

Tokyo Game Show starts on September 15th, so I am expecting a big Nintendo Direct on the 14th where all will be revealed.

[Rare White Ape]

A bit different… but it encapsulates my feelings quite well.

Oooooooh excitement!!!!!!


http://youtu.be/aZsyrIXeqfM

[Kchrpm]

I definitely enjoy the style of that video :up: Going through it now, it's a nice summary of all we know with valid emotional analysis.

[Kchrpm]

Man...not even an announcement of a direct yet...WHEN IS THIS THING COMING OUT :|

[Rare White Ape]

I definitely enjoy the style of that video :up:

I've seen three vids from that channel so far, just found it this week. It's a bit different from the last channel I discovered (http://gtxforums.net/showthread.php?1610-Jim-Sterling-He-s-probably-not-for-everyone-but-I-really-love-this-guy) :lol:

[Rare White Ape]

Also, this thread is funny. There has been, like, five or six posters coming in here on a semi-regular basis, but since friggin July 29 it has been:

Post by Kid
Post by Krunch
Post by me
Post by Krunch
Post by me
Post by Krunch
Post by Krunch
Post by Kid
Post by me
Post by me
Post by Krunch
Post by Kid
Post by Krunch
Post by Krunch
Post by me

The three of us seem to be chasing the same tumbleweed.

[Jason]

http://images.memes.com/meme/334082

[21Kid]

:lol:

And I haven't used my WiiU in all that time.


Although my son has. ;)

[Rare White Ape]

COOOOOOOME OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONNNNN!!!!

http://www.christiantoday.com/article/nintendo.nx.release.date.speculations.updates.cons ole.expected.to.be.unveiled.in.october/95359.htm
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Side note: if there's any hint of a delay in announcement and release I'll bite the bullet and buy a WiiU.

Yep.

Fuckit.

[Kchrpm]

The NX will be unveiled tomorrow, October 20th, in a three minute video at 10 AM EST.

http://www.polygon.com/2016/10/19/13341216/nintendo-nx-reveal-date

[Rare White Ape]

http://www.tumblr18.com/t18/2013/10/Awesome-smiley.gif

[thesameguy]

BTDT

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-yq-yyM_jCXc/Vi2EQLSHfSI/AAAAAAAABrE/QRv6E0B-6HI/s1600/photo-PA.jpg

[Rare White Ape]

So guess who's server can't handle a peak load right now.

[Rare White Ape]

And here it is!

The Nintendo Switch.


http://youtu.be/f5uik5fgIaI

[Kchrpm]

https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/sjrtq9b6z3k660docony.jpg

http://kotaku.com/heres-your-first-look-at-the-nx-nintendos-upcoming-con-1788004927


At home, Nintendo Switch rests in the Nintendo Switch Dock that connects the system to the TV and lets you play with family and friends in the comfort of your living room. By simply lifting Nintendo Switch from the dock, the system will instantly transition to portable mode, and the same great gaming experience that was being enjoyed at home now travels with you. The portability of Nintendo Switch is enhanced by its bright high-definition display. It brings the full home gaming system experience with you to the park, on an airplane, in a car, or to a friend’s apartment.

Gaming springs into action by removing detachable Joy-Con controllers from either side of Nintendo Switch. One player can use a Joy-Con controller in each hand; two players can each take one; or multiple Joy-Con can be employed by numerous people for a variety of gameplay options. They can easily click back into place or be slipped into a Joy-Con Grip accessory, mirroring a more traditional controller. Or, if preferred, the gamer can select an optional Nintendo Switch Pro Controller to use instead of the Joy-Con controllers. Furthermore, it is possible for numerous people to bring their Nintendo Switch systems together to enjoy local multiplayer face-to-face competition.

https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/n9apwygywt7he3vtwblv.jpg


Nintendo Switch is powered by the performance of the custom Tegra processor. The high-efficiency scalable processor includes an NVIDIA GPU based on the same architecture as the world’s top-performing GeForce gaming graphics cards.

The Nintendo Switch’s gaming experience is also supported by fully custom software, including a revamped physics engine, new libraries, advanced game tools and libraries. NVIDIA additionally created new gaming APIs to fully harness this performance. The newest API, NVN, was built specifically to bring lightweight, fast gaming to the masses.

Gameplay is further enhanced by hardware-accelerated video playback and custom software for audio effects and rendering.

[thesameguy]

Hmm, this isn't going to go well.

[Kchrpm]

Mind expanding on that thought? I've seen some good discussions based on what information is (and isn't) out there now.

[21Kid]

Those detachable joysticks and buttons seem really close together. :| Looks like I'd get a cramp trying to hold.

I like that it uses cartridges again. I've been saying for a while that they should go back to those since they can hold so much memory now.

Did they release any stats? resolution, battery life, are the controllers & other systems connected via bluetooth or something else?

[Kchrpm]

I've not seen any stats. All the Wii and Wii U controllers use Bluetooth (as do the PS4 and XBone controllers AFAIK), so it would make sense if the Switch's did as well. I'm guessing the LAN party like multiplayer is via WiFi on an ad-hoc network.

I'm wondering how much internal storage it will come with, and assuming it will have an SD card slot in addition to that. It will be important to see how big the games are as well.

[21Kid]

They showed them in a gym and at a park though. :? Doesn't seem like there'd be wifi in those places.

Actually in the gym they were playing against people in a different area.

[Kchrpm]

Ad hoc network = the devices connect to each other via Wi-Fi without router/internet. You can use it to transfer files between a camera and a phone without the internet, for example. Also called WiFi Direct in some scenarios.

[Kchrpm]

Controller close-up

https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/jigmmtjx8xabxftkpsf7.png

[dodint]

"Yes, cartridges, we learned nothing from the N64."

;)

[21Kid]

3DS seems to be doing okay with cartridges. :finger:

[thesameguy]

Mind expanding on that thought? I've seen some good discussions based on what information is (and isn't) out there now.

Tegra just doesn't bode well. It puts on the NX on the "casual gaming" platform rather than the "hardcore gaming" platform. It's just a lateral move from the Wii/U "not enough power" problem and adds what appears to be goofy ergonomics to the equation. Obviously this won't be a problem for the folks who bought previous Wiis, but I can't see how it will serve to expand market share in any way. If Nintendo is happy with where they are, that's cool, but I thought the point of the NX was to encourage growth. I can't see how this is gonna do that.

[Kchrpm]

Fair points.

My assumption is that, at this point, they have conceded the hardcore home console market and are instead trying to make an iPad Mini competitor. That market isn't the largest, but with the right software/services this could be a great media device (built in kickstand ftw) to go along with all the gaming capabilities.

But that is going to require strong software services, a low price, and other factors to grow a stagnant market. I don't know if this is a safer play than making a Scorpio/PS4 Pro competitor, but it's definitely more in-line with Nintendo's goals as a company.

[thesameguy]

Yep, agreed. Nintendo has the software might to attract interest, but if they don't have the hardware to meet graphical and complexity expectations it sets them up for a rough battle. Zelda and Mario and all them guys have huge appeal, but there are a lot of brands from Sony and Microsoft that will, necessarily, eventually displace them. I'm not sure you can build a future directly on the back of the past... you need a middle step. That could seriously be Pokémon, but I'd still be worried. Eventually nobody will remember what Nintendo meant in the '80s and '90s. Is Pokémon enough to build 2020+ Gaming Company? I dunno.

In a vacuum it's totally fair go target the tablet market - iPad Mini, etc. - but you know there is going to be a squeeze there. I don't know what "Custom Tegra processor" actually means, but the iPad gets more powerful *every year* and Nintendo needs to get many years out of a console product. Maybe not six or seven, but certainly three or four. Will 2017 Custom Tegra hold a candle to 2020 iPad? That's gonna be a helluva cap! "Specialized high efficiency processors" just seems like the wrong direction from every single angle, unless Nintendo knows something about SHIELD that I don't. :|

Or, maybe the hardware is so cheap the NX can be a purchase nobody has to agonize over. I guess I would have bought a Wii U just for the hell of it if it was $200... maybe they are going there?

I will say this: I think the move to cartridges is great and I am personally shocked nobody else has done it. Flash memory is cheap, especially flash memory that really only needs to be read and not written often. 50gb of flash memory has a bulk cost in the single digit dollars. I frankly expected game consoles to move towards game-on-flash a while ago rather than stuffing drives in the consoles. I understand the push to cloud delivery, and I understand that fixed storage is a great approach, but flash-based games would load faster and it seems like lots of people still can't download a 50gb game. If you could just take a flash drive (even a "special certified flash drive") to your local Redbox and pay $5 to skip the multi-day download, I think people would do it. Regardless of all that, delivering games for a basically portable system on flash is the only choice that makes sense, I'm glad Nintendo is doing that. Saves space, power, everything. Good call there for sure.

[Kchrpm]

Cloud-delivery = selling directly through your store, and no used game market. That will remain the priority going forward, I'm sure.

The issue with the tablet market, especially the smaller tablet market, seems to be that people ARE fine with tech that isn't up to date. People vacuum up subsidized phones every 1-3 years, but they've been keeping the same tablet for 4-6, it seems. I'm not exactly sure why, maybe because they're used mostly to consume video content or because they're seen more as laptop replacements and people keep laptops for 4-6 years.

So if Nintendo swoops in with a tablet that 1) has better looking and playing games (because they're by console game makers for console game prices), 2) have great, included controls, 3) easily plugs in to a home TV (Android and even iOS apparently still don't have this down 100% because they want to rely on wireless), 4) gives you a lot of flexibility with the controls (I really think the portable co-op functionality will be a big deal) and, most importantly, by a long margin, 5) HAS A KICKSTAND!!!!! comes in at a competitive price, they could sell a number of them.

Then you have the big difference between the gaming and tablet market: they don't need to convince you to buy a new device in a year or two to make the numbers work. They can just keep making games, continue drawing in people with those games, and then make a splash with another new model when the natural device replacement window for tablets comes up. They avoid the biggest tablet issue altogether.

[21Kid]

Obviously this won't be a problem for the folks who bought previous Wiis, but I can't see how it will serve to expand market share in any way. I don't even know if that's enough. A lot of people got burned on the Wii because it was fun for a few months and then no-one used it any more. I don't think original Wii owners want more of the same.

[novicius]

I like the slide-on controller handles (seriously, playing games on a tablets with "thumb-areas" suck) and I like the (simulated) portability and connectivity. Hope it's durable! ;)

[Kchrpm]

They won't get back Wii players because this is so different, but I do think they have a really good shot at grabbing a chunk of people who bought a tablet or 3DS, and those are nice sized markets that haven't seen a major technological leap in years.

[21Kid]

I think a big grab of the tablet market is that most games are $1-5... Personally I have hundreds of free games. I don't think I've ever paid for a tablet or phone game yet.

*I did buy some coins in a game that I played for over a year. I figured the $10 was well worth a years worth of gaming.

I don't see how N can compete with that... :?

[Rare White Ape]

Obvious Nintendo fan boy here, but they gave up on the hardcore gaming sphere not long after the GameCube was out in stores. If people want a grownups console they have two to choose from and they battle it out in their own war and that's fine.

Nintendo does have 'old' IP to sell off the back of, but they also have new IP such as Splatoon and Animal Crossing. Contrast this with the other two players who've had to push new IP into the market, usually via 3rd party developers, then have had to do it again because the previous games' studios were sold or shut down or just mis-managed into oblivion.

Tomb Raider is s good example. It became so big that there was a movie made about it, but then Lara Croft just… disappeared. Now Sony has Horizon Zero Dawn for all their 3rd person adventuring with a female lead. Meanwhile Tomb Raider is back with some pretty good games but it's now multi platform. Hell, Microsoft bought old IP from Nintendo with the sale of Rare then pretty much pissed in its eyes. Now we have Yooka-Laylee.

[Kchrpm]

I don't see how N can compete with that... :?
They are making those games, too. They will have both. You can play your $0-$15 tablet games and your $30-$60 console games on the same hardware.

[21Kid]

Ok. Cool. :)

[Jason]

The good thing about them choosing Tegra is that, theoretically, it should be easy enough for current mobile game developers to bring things to the NX, with significant improvements for Nintendo's hardware. So yeah, they aren't getting the latest BattleDuty, but there should be plenty of '3rd party' support in a different way. I like this move, personally. It lets them focus on a different sort of arena, and customer. This is also what I wanted from the Wii U (the gamepad being truly portable)

[thesameguy]

Cloud-delivery = selling directly through your store, and no used game market. That will remain the priority going forward, I'm sure.

The issue with the tablet market, especially the smaller tablet market, seems to be that people ARE fine with tech that isn't up to date. People vacuum up subsidized phones every 1-3 years, but they've been keeping the same tablet for 4-6, it seems. I'm not exactly sure why, maybe because they're used mostly to consume video content or because they're seen more as laptop replacements and people keep laptops for 4-6 years.

So if Nintendo swoops in with a tablet that 1) has better looking and playing games (because they're by console game makers for console game prices), 2) have great, included controls, 3) easily plugs in to a home TV (Android and even iOS apparently still don't have this down 100% because they want to rely on wireless), 4) gives you a lot of flexibility with the controls (I really think the portable co-op functionality will be a big deal) and, most importantly, by a long margin, 5) HAS A KICKSTAND!!!!! comes in at a competitive price, they could sell a number of them.

Then you have the big difference between the gaming and tablet market: they don't need to convince you to buy a new device in a year or two to make the numbers work. They can just keep making games, continue drawing in people with those games, and then make a splash with another new model when the natural device replacement window for tablets comes up. They avoid the biggest tablet issue altogether.

Definitely all true - I just wonder if people will look at it like "NX that plays games, or iPad that plays the same games and has productivity apps" vs looking at them as complimentary devices. Tablet sales are in the toilet (comparatively) and everyone says the bloom is off that rose, so maybe there is *plenty* of room for the NX. In my head, I feel like the danger here is the discussion will become Xbox vs. Playstation AND Tablet vs. Nintendo rather than Xbox vs. Playstation vs. Nintendo AND a tablet. Very weird dynamic. I'd also express concern that building a Customized Tegra Device might result in lackluster ports. Like, on the one hand that tablet game you made being instantly portable to Nintendo seems like a boon, but will developers make use of extra hardware that (admittedly may) exist on the Nintendo? Like back in the day when people would direct-port Xbox stuff to high-powered PCs and PC gamers were all dafuq? Code compatibility is great, but power isn't useful with more polygons and better textures to go with.

Really, I have *no idea*, and unless the thing is dirt cheap I won't buy it anyway. Just not that motivated by most of the Nintendo IP, recent Nintendo console performance, and the resultant "less complex" games that go with it. Clearly I'm not the market - these are just musings of someone who likes to consider the angles. ;)

[Jason]

It's interesting that this is still getting compared to Xbox/Playstation, when its much closer to something like the PS Vita (is that going to see a sequel?).

[thesameguy]

It's a confusing product! :lol: ;)

[Jason]

It really isn't that confusing :P

PSP/PS Vita, Nvidia Shield, and to an extent the iPad, have all been trying to figure out the 'grown up' portable gaming market for some time now. This is effectively Nintendo's version of that. Throw in a dock, and some controller options, and boom, here we are.

[thesameguy]

Oh, I know, but The Media is used to Nintendo playing with the major home consoles, and it'll appear a damned revelation when they realize Nintendo isn't doing that anymore, and maybe hasn't for a while.

[21Kid]

I thought ever since Super Nintendo, that they've made most of their money off of handhelds. :erm: Makes sense to focus on what you're good at.

[MR2 Fan]

So this is what the WiiU should have been

[Kchrpm]

I don't think mobile tech from that long ago would have been powerful enough to make complex games to show on a large screen in HD.

Need for Speed Most Wanted was available on Wii U and iOS at the time, so it's a decent comparison:

Mobile

http://images.pocketgamer.co.uk/images/featimgs/needforspeed_sbs_02_ios.jpg

Wii U

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/kIpY6o2eKik/maxresdefault.jpg

[Rare White Ape]

It's a confusing product! :lol: ;)

Only if you're tying to shoehorn it into a distinct category (which is why EDM has 40 different subgenres of house music).

Keep in mind that Nintendo merged the console and handheld hardware divisions a few years ago to streamline things.

[Rare White Ape]

I'm going to predict some things that I haven't seen anyone else think of yet.

1. The Switch tablet has a CPU and a GPU that does the work to display graphics on the tablet part of it with its sub 1080p display, while the dock has more RAM and another GPU inside that looks after 1080p graphics, and the machine switches (get it?) between the two seamlessly when you plug it in. This should help alleviate the battery life demands.

2. The tablet will have a couple of GB of onboard storage for games and save files, and the dock has a larger HDD to keep more games, and you'll be able to copy data to the tablet when you want to go out. This will solve the storage size problem I've seen people worry about.

[Kchrpm]

I like both of those ideas. I don't know if Nintendo has the hardware/software integration chops to do either.

[novicius]

Sounds very good -- any word on price?

[Kchrpm]

Rumor (from someone at a major retailer that received some amount of display setup stuff) is $299 base, $399 for a bundle (no indication on what's in the bundle).

[thesameguy]

I can only imagine Sony demonstrated the folly of unnecessarily complex hardware. Multiple CPUs & GPUs seem like a good idea until you have to get developers to code all special-like. Which is not to say Nintendo won't do it - and I'd agree a lot of the early press suggests that it intends to - but jeez, what a major mis-step. Making developers code two versions of every game so you can run high res/high polygon and and low res/low polygon depending sure seems like a bad idea.

I'm really struggling with what's actually in the dock. An 8" Shield has a K1, a 1080p display, 2gb of RAM and 16gb of flash for $200. Given you're playing at that level, what else do you need? Why wouldn't the NX in its portable mode have *at least* those specs?

NFS:MW on the Shield...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n718JoCuCGY

[thesameguy]

OIC



The Nintendo Switch Dock Is Only For Charging And TV Output

Many of those watching the trailer may have wondered, as we did, if the docking unit that the portable portion of the console was put into had extra processors, like RAM or other internals to beef up the Switch when it came time to play on the television. Nintendo tells IGN that this isn't the case. According to the gaming site:

"The dock is not the main console unit of Nintendo Switch. The main unit of Nintendo Switch is the unit that has the LCD screen, which the two Joy-Con controllers can be attached to and detached from. The main function of the Nintendo Switch Dock is to provide an output to the TV, as well as charging and providing power to the system."


So, it's an Nvidia Shield with controllers and a dock plus access to Nintendo titles for $100 more than the Shield. That, actually, sounds totally fair. Not my cup of tea - I'd prefer the OS flexibility of the Shield over Mario and Zelda - but fair. They really should sell an Android emulator. I'd definitely go in for a Switch if it could also do productive things around the house - control Insteon, Harmony, etc.

[Kchrpm]

I have the Wii U version of Most Wanted, and it looks FAR better than that Shield version gameplay. I expect at least Wii U level graphics from the Switch on the games actually designed for it. There's no way the Nvidia Shield could handle anything with the complexity and fidelity we've seen in Breath of the Wild, for example.

As for making games that run at different resolutions and scaled power on the same architecture, that's already happening with Sony, Microsoft, PC and mobile development. I don't think the dock provides any extra processing power, but if it did, it'd pretty much be par for the course in video game development now.

[Kchrpm]

Jason made a good point in a discussion on this just now: if all you're doing is going from 720p to 1080p, and at the same time plugging into a powered dock, they could just be activating overclocking (or turning off underclocking) for the GPU and cranking up the active cooling. No need for weird handshakes or complicated programming.

[Rare White Ape]

Ha! My speculation fell apart pretty quickly.

In my mind it would be easy from a development point of view: just make the game, Nintendo's hardware will handle the rest. It will surely be isssing the kid at Christmas test that I posited in the Xbone thread after all.

But that's all moot.

In more solid speculation, I read on Eurogamer that this console might see the debut of the v2 Tegra processor, and might even include a cheap version of a Pascal 10-series GPU, so expect at least PS3/Xbox 360 levels of performance. It will benefit from progress made since the Shield came out.

[Jason]

OIC



So, it's an Nvidia Shield with controllers and a dock plus access to Nintendo titles for $100 more than the Shield. That, actually, sounds totally fair. Not my cup of tea - I'd prefer the OS flexibility of the Shield over Mario and Zelda - but fair. They really should sell an Android emulator. I'd definitely go in for a Switch if it could also do productive things around the house - control Insteon, Harmony, etc.


I have the Wii U version of Most Wanted, and it looks FAR better than that Shield version gameplay. I expect at least Wii U level graphics from the Switch on the games actually designed for it. There's no way the Nvidia Shield could handle anything with the complexity and fidelity we've seen in Breath of the Wild, for example.

As for making games that run at different resolutions and scaled power on the same architecture, that's already happening with Sony, Microsoft, PC and mobile development. I don't think the dock provides any extra processing power, but if it did, it'd pretty much be par for the course in video game development now.

I take people who say 'its an Nvidia Shield' as not literally saying the same specs... since the Shield will be almost 4 years old* by the time the Switch comes out. I think it's fair to say its along that lineage though, and 4 years of mobile computing advancements will likely put it in the Wii U graphics capability arena.

Edit: And yeah, my hope is in 'mobile' mode, the system runs at 720p with no active cooling, the vents are just vents, no fans are running in the mobile unit. Place it on the dock, and the dock blows air through the thing, while it 'overclocks' up to 1080p capability.

Edit 2: Shield Portable is 4 years old next year. Shield Tablet/K1 will be 3 years old.

[thesameguy]

Jason made a good point in a discussion on this just now: if all you're doing is going from 720p to 1080p, and at the same time plugging into a powered dock, they could just be activating overclocking (or turning off underclocking) for the GPU and cranking up the active cooling. No need for weird handshakes or complicated programming.

That all is true, but resolution really isn't the driving force behind power consumption. The quality of textures, the number of polygons, and the effects/cleanup/processing applied to all of that is what takes hardware. Running the same textures/polygons/effects at 1080p or anything less than isn't going to be any sort of shift in power consumption... all hardware is aimed squarely at delivering 1080p performance... I mean, you have to sort of try to find sub 1080p displays anymore. Changing the nature of power consumption in a meaningful way means adding better textures, a larger polygon count, or applying effects (AA, etc.). Changing polygon count on the fly is a difficulty, but changing textures and effects really isn't. You could have a game load higher res textures and do more cleanup when docked, but that would sort of be in the face of typical console game development. Not saying it wouldn't happen, but it would be unusual.

Moot point anyway, Nintendo has confirmed there is no additional hardware in the dock. It's just a charger and a port replicator. ;)

[thesameguy]

I take people who say 'its an Nvidia Shield' as not literally saying the same specs... since the Shield will be almost 4 years old* by the time the Switch comes out. I think it's fair to say its along that lineage though, and 4 years of mobile computing advancements will likely put it in the Wii U graphics capability arena.

Word. :up:

Modern Tegra is no slouch, I don't invoke "Nvidia Shield" in a disparaging manner.

Edit: The Nvidia 10xx cards are a huge advancement in power and power consumption - I can only imagine a significant impact from that technology on a "future" Tegra.

[Kchrpm]

That all is true, but resolution really isn't the driving force behind power consumption.

... all hardware is aimed squarely at delivering 1080p performance...

Tell that to the XBox One and PS4 fanboys

http://kotaku.com/why-it-matters-that-ps4-games-are-higher-resolution-th-1475165066

But yes, when you said that it would be a Shield that played Nintendo games, and then embedded a video of what a Shield could do (which was really bad compared to any recent home console), I felt it was necessary to say what I did.

[Jason]

I'm curious to see how the longevity of this platform does. If they are embracing mobile technologies and programming, does the Switch get updated every couple years, and the overall platform lasts a long time? Nintendo did a mid cycle update of the 3DS, and Sony/MS are doing their own updates on their current systems. Do we a Switch 2.0 in a few years, with even better internals, while games remain compatible with both, and are appropriately scaled? (like they are on mobile devices, and I assume with PS4/Xbone refreshes)

[thesameguy]

Tell that to the XBox One and PS4 fanboys

Those consoles are three years old - halfway through their lives - sold into a market still (amazingly!) flooded with 720p displays. I totally understand your point, but for the same reason you can't take "Nintendo Nvidia Shield" literally you can't suggest 2016 Switch has the same hardware obstacles that 2013 Xbox/PS had. Time are a changin'!


But yes, when you said that it would be a Shield that played Nintendo games, and then embedded a video of what a Shield could do (which was really bad compared to any recent home console), I felt it was necessary to say what I did.

You've lost me. The Shield and the Xbone/PS4 were introduced months apart three years ago. The Wii U quite a bit earlier. They are contemporaries, but hardly recent. Graphics (all!) technology has made leaps and bounds in the last three years.

The Switch will be brand new, and you gotta believe it'll be Parker based (Tegra X2) which benefits from the technology in the current Pascal GPUs. How that will compare to three year old AMD APUs (actually four) is tough to say, but I think you can draw *some* parallels by looking at the hierarchy of GPUs over the past couple years - the desktop stuff makes some advances, that is later incorporated into the mobile stuff, rinse and repeat. The Nvidia Shield was an "incredible" (I use the term loosely ;)) 2012 device as it was doing things the Xbox 360 was doing in the palm of your hand, but then the One came out and the Shield looked sad. I would expect that a 2016 Tegra to be capable of Xbox One-levels of performance, but it won't compete with actual, modern state of the art. Current generation consoles, sure, but not actual current tech.

Which I think gets us to...


I'm curious to see how the longevity of this platform does. If they are embracing mobile technologies and programming, does the Switch get updated every couple years, and the overall platform lasts a long time? Nintendo did a mid cycle update of the 3DS, and Sony/MS are doing their own updates on their current systems. Do we a Switch 2.0 in a few years, with even better internals, while games remain compatible with both, and are appropriately scaled? (like they are on mobile devices, and I assume with PS4/Xbone refreshes)

Me too. I think this may end up being key and IMHO it's a big part of the Switch Struggle. Being based on mobile tech definitely puts an expiration date on how long the technology will be interesting. When the consoles iterate next (if they do!) the Switch may end up looking like the U did in the face of the One/4. One thing Switch definitely has going for it is that it is mobile. Your Playstation will probably live a long and happy life under your TV, but we all know how long the average person can keep their phone/tablet intact. Maybe Nintendo will benefit from a lifecycle influenced by clumsy consumers. ;)

There is the ongoing concern about compatibility, but a) Nintendo is typically quite good about that, and b) we may have reached a tipping point technology-wise where implementing compatibility modes on new hardware just isn't that much of a struggle. x86-based stuff for Sony and Microsoft will surely help, perhaps Nintendo is aiming at ARM to achieve something similar.

I don't the mid-cycle Xbox & PS have ever introduced more processing power - they're typically just scaled-down using modern manufacturing to net lower costs, but the Switch could definitely take the shorter lifecycle actual hardware refresh approach. Apple's obviously been pretty successful with getting people to buy frequently (until recently, anyway), maybe Nintendo can tap that too. I'd really encourage Nintendo to somehow get a piece of the app market. Giving kids the choice of an Galaxy Tab or a Switch at the same price point and one does Mario? Shiiiiii. Being ARM-based, Android compatibility would take little to no effort. Maybe take a tip from Amazon, where the Fire devices run sort-of Android and can mostly run Android apps, but you never see Android, you just see Fire OS and Amazon has total control.

[Jason]

I think it's important to move away from comparing anything Nintendo does with the Switch to 'home consoles' from Microsoft and Sony. This is a mobile console that you have the option of playing on your TV. Anyone looking for Xbone/PS4 graphics will be very disappointed.

[thesameguy]

I'd agree with that - not only because that's clearly what Nintendo wants, but also because the things you'd judge the "home experience" vs " the mobile experience" are pretty wildly different.

But, it is important to note that the PS4 and Xbox One are both based on the SoCs that were intended for the mobile market. The Jaguar "Kabini" series APU was developed for laptops and tablets. Same guts, the PS4 just offers far better memory and more graphics cores.

The current/future Tegras compete directly against the Jaguar's great great great grandchildren, the AMD Bristol and Stoney Ridge APUs. So, really, the Switch follows the same lineage, it's just Team Green instead of Team Red. :D

But, still, I agree, I don't think Nintendo is interested in delivering a traditional home console type of experience.

[thesameguy]

I'll add, just for the details -

The Tegra K1, in the original Shield, was 192 cores and about 300 gflops
The Tegra X1, last year's jam, offered 256 CUDA cores and at 1000MHz and 512 gflops, which puts it on par with a four year old GT630M in the desktop world.
The Tegra X2, which is probably materially similar to whatever the Switch will run, also offers 256 CUDA cores and is promising 750 gflops - the rest of the specs are unknown. That's about a GT670M, pretty big improvement.

The PS4 and Xbox One offer 1400 and 1300 gflops respectively. In the realm of a GTX 650ti.

An iPad Pro is about 400, just for reference.

A GTX 1060 offers 3470, also for reference. :lol:

Obviously too early to tell, but the Switch will have quite a bit more processing power than an old Shield or current iPad, but won't touch a PS4 or Xbox One - so, yeah, definitely not useful to make that comparison in terms of what to expect from games.

[Kchrpm]

You think the XBox One and PS4 were released in a market where 720p TVs was the norm? Well, we're living in parallel universes then, and that would explain our differing viewpoints, like how the NFS game you embedded is similar to an XBox 360, or that laptop = mobile = ARM in regards to performance, and therefore we're going to have what is effectively a mobile console, aimed at selling for less than its home console counterparts, that has similar power in a portable form factor.

We'll find out for sure before March, if our parallel universes at least have that much in common.

[thesameguy]

I hear what you're saying, but think about it - most people replace TVs every 5-7 years. Most TVs in 2013 were from 2008. 1080p adoption hit 80% in 2015.

http://www.tvnewscheck.com/playout/tag/global-tv-replacement-study/
http://rethinkresearch.biz/articles/15-years-after-launch-hdtv-penetration-hits-81-in-us-homes/

:shrug:

[Jason]

My expectations are Wii U/Xbox 360/PS3 level graphics, give or take a texture or three.

[Kchrpm]

People buying an XBox One or PS4 at release are not average people.

[novicius]

I'm curious to see how the longevity of this platform does. If they are embracing mobile technologies and programming, does the Switch get updated every couple years, and the overall platform lasts a long time? Nintendo did a mid cycle update of the 3DS, and Sony/MS are doing their own updates on their current systems. Do we a Switch 2.0 in a few years, with even better internals, while games remain compatible with both, and are appropriately scaled? (like they are on mobile devices, and I assume with PS4/Xbone refreshes)
Aren't tablets amongst the longest-kept electronic devices today? I'd expect the NX to be on the 8-year plan and completely disregard the Playstation evolution cycles (nobody outside of us core Xbots care about the next XBONE, that war has been lost for good). #dreamcast'd

[Jason]

Every manufacturer pumps out a new generation tablet every year or two though. So while sales might be relatively small compared to phones, people still 'upgrade' from time to time.

[Phil_SS]

My 5.5 year old iPad has a very difficult time with the mainstream internet. To the point where I usually have to read articles on sites like CNN or Jalopnik in the reader mode. It just can't handle all of the videos and moving ads all at the same time.

So if this thing is meant to just play games then it will be fine. If it is meant to deal with the internet then I doubt it will make 8 years.

[Kchrpm]

All SKUs at launch will include the dock. Nintendo considered having a handheld only package, but didn't want to confuse people that might think it could still connect to a TV.

http://www.polygon.com/2016/10/25/13404908/nintendo-switch-dock-portable-bundles

[thesameguy]

Aren't tablets amongst the longest-kept electronic devices today? I'd expect the NX to be on the 8-year plan and completely disregard the Playstation evolution cycles (nobody outside of us core Xbots care about the next XBONE, that war has been lost for good). #dreamcast'd

IIRC that's a somewhat recent shift. For a while tablet makers were enjoying cell-phone-like replacement intervals but those have dramatically tapered off and sales are tanking. Decreased replacement intervals combined with saturation... I think that's a part of the reason the Switch is interesting, because it's a new tablet platform in a market that isn't growing and might be shrinking, it's a dedicated game platform in a sea of multifunction devices, and we've no idea what Nintendo thinks the lifespan is gonna be. Wii -> U was six years and now U -> Switch is only four years, so maybe they are aiming at shortening that up. Although there are some issues switching to a commodity platform, I think Nintendo can really benefit from a stable core architecture - it will allow them to cut design costs and increase compatibility, so faster replacement intervals might not mean losing all your games.

The whole thing is really fascinating. I half-expected Nintendo to just follow Sega into software-only, or maybe make accessories for a tablet platform. This shift to commodity hardware is weird... but it worked real good for Sony, Microsoft, and even Apple, so maybe it's a good idea.

[Rare White Ape]

It would be a tablet if it had a touchscreen. It probably doesn't.

We're trying to shoehorn it into a category again. Let's not go further than it being the next home gaming system from Nintendo (their exact words) which just happens to also be somewhat portable.

I bet that mine will spend 99% if its life docked to the TV.

[thesameguy]

You think no touchscreen? For realz?

[novicius]

That WOULD be a completely Nintendo thing to do. :lol:

[thesameguy]

Yeah, for sure - I'd just be shocked if you could buy a portable-sized TFT that didn't have one these days! ;)

[Kchrpm]

While I definitely think it would be a poor choice to not have a touchscreen, I'm also wondering what the solution will be for docked use.

1) On-screen cursor. Would pretty much require its use only in menus.
2) Wii-style IR pointer. Back to setting up the little IR bar.

[thesameguy]

You could easily use the controllers for cursor control. Modern gyros are plenty accurate to move a pointer around. On the HTPC I use an 8 year old Gyration air mouse that runs Windows perfectly - sticking that gyro in the controller gives you everything you need without any additional hardware. The mouse was $50 in 2008, the technology is probably $0.50 in 2016. While maybe not accurate enough or fast enough to play games with any satisfaction, it's plenty to navigate menus with.

Edit:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dOwPzBr-cbU

Skip to like 0:40

[Kchrpm]

3) Use the (unconfirmed) motion controls in the controllers.

[thesameguy]

Yeah - touchscreen or no it seems weird that Nintendo would abandon that technology after selling consoles essentially based entirely on it.

[Kchrpm]

Do the DS/3DS have motion controls?

Edit: Yes, the 3DS does.

[Kchrpm]

Game lineup, price and launch date will be announced at a presentation in Tokyo on January 12th.

http://nintendoeverything.com/nintendo-switch-presentation-announced-for-january-12/

[Rare White Ape]

You think no touchscreen? For realz?

Unless proven wrong then.... yep. I think the point of this thing is a unified experience both in the lounge room and out-and-about. If they introduced (or continued to use) a feature that is unavailable while docked then it becomes a bit of a pain in the arse.

Simplicity is key. Look at the controllers. The Pro looks just like an Xbox controller, and the Joy-cons are little more than that, cut in half and made smaller. That's getting back to the roots of pure gaming. The wee Joy-cons might have waggle, but who knows? And fuck waggle anyway.

The touchscreen on my 3DS hardly gets any use outside of very specific situations as I prefer to use buttons, and core gameplay is usually mapped to the buttons anyway. The only time I use them is when looking at maps and items in Zelda games, which means the touchscreen is just 'more buttons' without having to go into a pause menu. I know of a few phone games that make great use of the touch screen, and there's probably a good number of DS, 3DS and WiiU games that do as well, so it would be remiss of me to dismiss them because they're not the sort of games I'd be interested in; I know they have their place. But on the other hand, driving games with on-screen controls suck big time. Still, it's far more useful than the PS4's touch pad, amirite??

If Nintendo wants to attract more 3rd-party developers, then unfortunately they need to let go of a few things and come closer in-line with the norm - something they established with the NES way back when - so that said developers don't have to do too much work to fit their games into the Switch mould. It's sucky, but that's the way they want to go.

Now to be disproven in record time...

[Kchrpm]

http://www.polygon.com/2016/10/27/13437544/nintendo-switch-touchscreen-multi-touch-support-report


Nintendo’s upcoming home console-handheld hybrid, the Nintendo Switch, won’t ditch the touchscreen its predecessors have, Eurogamer reports. “A number of sources” confirmed that not only does the Switch have touch controls, it will include a multi-touch screen.

...

Nintendo has been pushing the Switch as a home console first, meaning that the tablet-style portable is meant to spend most of its time in the dock that connects it to the TV. That suggests that touch support may be limited in use, in comparison to its prominence in Wii U and 3DS games.

Recent patent findings suggest that the handheld does include a touchscreen, as well as a gyroscope, GPS, compass and motion-tracking capabilities. The company filed these documents over the course of the last year

[thesameguy]

So. Good. :lol:

[novicius]

:lol: :up:

[Rare White Ape]

HAHAHAHA!

Ahhhh shit.

Ok. I predict that there will be no Halo titles on Switch. That one should be correct. I hope.

[Rare White Ape]

I actually came to post this link myself, but Kch beat me to it:

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2016-10-27-nintendo-switch-has-a-6-2-multi-touch-screen

[Alan P]

I don't get it. If any game has a touch requirement you won't be able to play it at home on your TV sitting on the Sofa?

[Jason]

I'd assume touchscreen is more for interacting with 'apps' and the system, myself.

[thesameguy]

...or whatever the touch "requirement" is can be adequately reproduced with the motion controls in the controller.

[Kchrpm]

https://pvplive.net/c/rumor-nintendo-switch-launch-date-and-bundles-reve

Rumor roundup:
March 17th release
Region free
$260 basic bundle
$300 Mario bundle
$340 Zelda bundle w/Pro controller
NFC ID card for...I don't know. Download content from your friend's device? Instead of the e-shop? So, uh, the game share thing that they've done before?
"Director's cut" editions of Wii U hits, like Splatoon, Mario Kart 8 and Smash Bros.
Nintendo is trying to work out a good trade-in deal for physical copies of Wii U games at retailers

[thesameguy]

Definitely seems more like a dockable 3DS than a portable U.

[Rare White Ape]

Hopefully it's compatible with legacy Pro controllers for the Wii and Wii U. That'd be a friendly Nintendo no-brainer. Smash players would love it.

[Kchrpm]

Toys R Us Canada put it on their site for $329.99 Canadian, currently about $243 US.

http://www.gsmarena.com/toysrus_reveals_nintendo_switch_canadian_price-blog-21616.php

[Rare White Ape]

Just a rumour, but say it ain't fuckin so.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2016-11-15-zelda-breath-of-the-wild-will-miss-nintendo-switch-launch

[novicius]

It would be cool if there was a way to form a sense of investment in the game (ala' building a stronghold in Skyrim).

But since Skyrim is apparently coming to the Switch I suppose that point is moot. :lol:

EDIT: Any news about being able to successfully use a Switch base at a friend's house to slot your Switch into to get access to your games/saves?

[Kchrpm]

The Switch base, from what I can tell, is only charging and video output. There has been no talk of additional functionality or storage in the dock, let alone how it might work.

[novicius]

:up:

[FaultyMario]

Would you be able to connect universe-type franchises (Disney, Lego, Skylanders)?

[Kchrpm]

There are USB plugs on the Switch dock.

https://cdn0.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/7321785/nintendo-switch-dock-photo_1920.jpg

So it's possible. The Amiibo line makes a ton of money for Nintendo, but they just use a tap on the NFC instead of needing to remain placed on anything, so it's not necessarily definitive that they need to support that functionality.

[Jason]

Kinda hoping the USB allows for external storage to transfer games back and forth, instead of having to download a game every time you want it on your Switch.

[novicius]

Report: Mario & Skyrim Switch at Launch, Splatoon Pack In, No March Wii U Zelda (http://letsplayvideogames.com/2016/11/report-mario-skyrim-switch-at-launch-splatoon-pack-in-no-march-wii-u-zelda/)


In Switch-specific news, we have been told that the Mario game shown in the Switch reveal trailer is planned as Switch release day title in all territories...

We have also heard that the current plan is for the more expensive Switch SKU (stock keeping unit) to come bundled with a new version of Splatoon. A big part of the push for this will be a 1 vs 1 mode where two players on separate Switches can fight over a map, switching their weapon of choice at will mid-game. Nintendo expects the short match nature of Splatoon to translate well to handheld multiplayer, in that players need only commit a few minutes to a full multiplayer match...

Also, that Skyrim port Bethesda refuse to confirm is real is totally happening. We’ve heard it’s planned to be a launch day release for the system, to mirror the recent remastered version of the game, and to allow mods at some time post-launch. Mod support for Skyrim will not be there from day one, and much like the PS4 will be limited to mods made using existing in-game assets.

[Kchrpm]

New trailer released tonight


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDFZIUdo764

[21Kid]

:up: Looks fun! :random: Can we rename the thread now that we know the name of the system?

[Kchrpm]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_D9OVKitIY

[Rare White Ape]

Dat score

I'm loving the music for this already.

[Kchrpm]

Jason just shared this with me: https://twitter.com/LaurakBuzz/status/806198457493024769

Basically it confirms an idea he had that I agreed made sense at the time: while the dock doesn't directly provide additional processing power to the Switch, it will put the Switch's internal hardware into a more high power mode, including kicking on a fan. This can allow games that were running at 720p on the Switch screen to run at 1080p when docked.

[Jason]

We're official Nintendo insiders, Keith.

[21Kid]

You should start a blog.

[Rare White Ape]

Switch to get GameCube Virtual Consile games, as well as WiiU-GC controller adapter support:

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2016-12-07-sources-nintendo-switch-will-have-gamecube-virtual-console-support

According to this the main drive behind finally including GameCube games on VC is to keep allowing Smash Bros. Melee to be easily accessible for its strong e-sports scene. On a related note, I read a thing last week on Kotaku where Smash tournament hosts are having to hoarde lots of old CRT TVs to plug in their GameCubes. It's quite cool.

[Jason]

If it's getting GC for VC, then the Wii shouldn't be a problem, since their internals were practically the same, iirc.

[Rare White Ape]

Well Wii U runs Wii games both via Wii mode (Kch knows more about this than me) and via VC, so all of this will be a cinch. Nintendo's European R&D division (NERD) should be able to cook up a very good emulator to run it all. They're the ones who got Wii VC games up and running on Wii U when the system wasn't designed to do that at all. It shows they have good Kung-fu with industrial grade emulation.

Meanwhile, Jimmy Fallon becomes the envy of nerds everywhere when he plays BotW live on TV via a Switch console:

https://youtu.be/7TJ7IUNWGl4

[Rare White Ape]

No more Yooka-Laylee for Wii U, citing technical issues*. However, it looks like the developer is planning on announcing a Switch version early next year.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2016-12-13-yooka-laylee-cancelled-for-wii-u-due-to-unforeseen-technical-issues

One look at any comments on Playtonic's Facebook page will reveal about 90-billion% of the game's followers wanting a Switch version anyway. Which is good, because anyone wanting to play this game on anything but a Nintendo console can go jump in a ditch. The ONLY way to play Yooka-Laylee is on a Nintendo console.

Also Shovel Knight is going to be in it which is pretty fuckin awesome.

https://i.blogs.es/a2f9a0/yooka-shovel/original.jpg

* Yeah, nah. I reckon they're smart in capitalising on being a strong early-launch title for Switch. Bring it on.

[Jason]

I absolutely support any developer scrapping WiiU plans in favor of NS plans. Nintendo needs a strong launch for this system, which includes plenty of titles and plenty of advertising.

[Rare White Ape]

Digital Foundry has Switch specs to reveal:

https://youtu.be/PzS4LbH5nmA

http://scontent-syd2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/fr/cp0/e15/q65/15590959_10154690070665792_3529399469013527676_o.j pg?efg=eyJpIjoidCJ9&oh=2b4b5047e326223fcf5aaf757df5ff4b&oe=58E5E23D

Their take: yes it's underpowered, but battery life and thermal management have to be considerations, so look at it this way; it's a handheld that's more powerful than a Wii U which can ramp up to 1080p when you plug it in at home.

[Jason]

From what I've read that still puts it slightly above the Wii U.

So we have a truly portable system that is more powerful than Wii U/X360/PS3, rumored 5ish hours of battery life, and a full suite of Nintendo games (both console and portable titles rumored to be coming to the NS)...

I don't see a single issue with any of this. But of course a bunch of cocks got it in their mind that the system would be as powerful as the PS4/Xbone, so it's been endless bitching on the internet today.

[Rare White Ape]

Haha! Has it? Please show me.

As they pointed out in the video above, Nintendo opted out of the power arms race when the Wii came out. In fact, it was mere months after the GameCube, when Nintendo was throwing around ideas for their next console, that they decided they didn't need all the power of the next gen. It all about their games man.

[Jason]

All the bitching is on the Switch subreddit. Haven't checked today though, so maybe it's calmed down.

Nintendo hasn't been friendly to AAA third party titles since SNES, imo. Even during the N64, developers were ditching out due to the difficulties of cart vs cd-rom. Gamecube had limited storage compared to others, then the Wii came out with practically the same internals as the previous generation, and then the WiiU was basically an overpowered Wii, that hit the power level of the previous generation competitor consoles (and also had shitty marketing/confusing name). So as much as we internet experts like to talk about the importance of 3rd parties, I just don't think Nintendo cares. They do what they want, and if the console is successful or not fully depends on the quality of gaming *they* output.

If this thing runs Zelda, Mario Kart, Smash Bros and an HD version of Pokemon Sun/Moon, they'll sell them by the boatload.

[Alan P]

Nintendo have shown in the past with the Gameboy and the Wii that the graphical capabilities of a machine matter not, it's all about the games.. As good as the Nintendo stable is though, they need that third party publisher support, and at least comparable to the XBone/PS4 graphically.

[thesameguy]

All the bitching is on the Switch subreddit. Haven't checked today though, so maybe it's calmed down.

Nintendo hasn't been friendly to AAA third party titles since SNES, imo. Even during the N64, developers were ditching out due to the difficulties of cart vs cd-rom. Gamecube had limited storage compared to others, then the Wii came out with practically the same internals as the previous generation, and then the WiiU was basically an overpowered Wii, that hit the power level of the previous generation competitor consoles (and also had shitty marketing/confusing name). So as much as we internet experts like to talk about the importance of 3rd parties, I just don't think Nintendo cares. They do what they want, and if the console is successful or not fully depends on the quality of gaming *they* output.

If this thing runs Zelda, Mario Kart, Smash Bros and an HD version of Pokemon Sun/Moon, they'll sell them by the boatload.

Well put - it's not cup of tea, but I'd tend to agree it only needs to run a couple 1st party titles to hit sales targets, so why would they stress?

I guess I don't know their sales requirements, but I haven't thought of Nintendo and 3rd party at the same time since SNES either.

[Rare White Ape]

It matters not, in my view. I think I've gone blue in the face saying this before :lol:

If you want the third party games that the other consoles enjoy, then you'll just have to buy one of the other consoles. That solves that problem, and they're a lot cheaper than any Nintendo consoles you'll buy.

Target is selling XboneS+Minecraft bundles for $279 this week, which is only $30 more than what I paid for my New 3DS XL.

I want a Switch for Switch games. I already have all the other consoles going back to the PSOne for "other console" stuff.

[Kchrpm]

Get (third-party) accessorized: http://www.polygon.com/2017/1/4/14152544/nintendo-switch-accessories

https://cdn0.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/1MKBd2aFQnXpJvWTOqdHaHcyITQ=/800x0/filters:no_upscale()/cdn0.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/7747401/unnamed__1_.jpg

https://cdn0.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/vpOzmUdouh9L5FVTqkjQQDYhB20=/800x0/filters:no_upscale()/cdn0.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/7747403/unnamed.jpg

[Rare White Ape]

The Switch is going to run on much the same guts as what's in the Nvidia Shield yeah?

Well, Nvidia just unveiled the new Sheild at CES and curiously didn't say much about what's inside the box. Surely it'll feature the v2 Tegra or whatever it's called. But my guess is that it's being kept quiet so that it leaves Nintendo with a chance to make big news in a week's time when they unveil the specs for the Switch.

The new Shield also supports 4K HDR streaming to a TV, so that's good to know.

http://www.theverge.com/ces/2017/1/4/14173652/nvidia-shield-tv-new-4k-hdr-google-assistant-ces-2017

[Kchrpm]

I believe it's based on the Shield portable more than the Shield set top box.

[Kchrpm]

http://www.polygon.com/2017/1/5/14179298/nintendo-switch-launch-games-treehouse-live


In a tweet, Nintendo of America promised that fans would be treated to “an in-depth look at upcoming games featured in the Nintendo Switch Presentation.” It’s unknown whether that’s limited to launch titles or other games that will hit the console later in the year.

Join us at 9:30AM EST on 1/13 for Treehouse Live and an in-depth look at upcoming games featured in the Nintendo Switch Presentation. pic.twitter.com/0OMGtCJLW9

— Nintendo of America (@NintendoAmerica) January 5, 2017

[Rare White Ape]

I believe it's based on the Shield portable more than the Shield set top box.

Yeah nah it'll be similar to the set top box thing. Tegra X1 based, although I'm hoping they have a trick up their sleeve as I said before and will spring the X2 on us.

[Rare White Ape]

Switch presentation viewing guide: http://www.vooks.net/nintendo-switch-presentation-2017-viewing-guide-times/

It's Aussie-focused, but the details are relevant to podeans and antipodeans alike. Yes I made up the word 'podeans'.

Less than a week!

Also news: Nintendo is hosting a Treehouse Live a few hours later, highlighting the games that will be shown off during the presentation itself. Details for that are also in the link above.

[Rare White Ape]

http://scontent-syd2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/fr/cp0/e15/q65/15966166_10154084434466447_6363448806546371130_n.j pg?efg=eyJpIjoidCJ9&oh=d0a13e83cb153be442fc957f9a522824&oe=58DE56D1

[animalica]

http://i68.tinypic.com/67403q.jpg

[Rare White Ape]

Look! Some news which isn't just speculative bullshit!

http://www.vooks.net/first-hori-accessories-nintendo-switch-outed/

http://www.vooks.net/img/2017/01/1484086094-1573089-apparatuurtassen-hori-snap-go-protector-zelda-breath-of-the-wild-nintendo-switch-nsw-037u.jpg

[Rare White Ape]

Regarding Yooka-Laylee, I wouldn't share a link to a cracked version of the Toybox pre-alpha demo, but someone else (https://www.reddit.com/r/CrackStatus/comments/4v8ljl/looking_for_yookalaylee_toybox_from_rpiratedgames/) might.

It runs very nicely on modest hardware on full settings, at a gel-like 60fps in 1080p.

But, it's the usual Rare collect-a-thon and if you hate that style of game then you'll hate YL. It's Banjo-Kazooie with nicer graphics. I'm into it though, and will definitely add it to my Switch collection.

[Kchrpm]

It's in the system at Best Buy at $250 now

https://www.reddit.com/r/NintendoSwitch/comments/5n79w7/nintendo_switch_us_price_leak/?st=ixryqdax&sh=1b18266b

[Rare White Ape]

Shovel Knight CONFIRMED for Switch. It'll be more expensive but will feature more game modes and content. Owners of previous versions can upgrade for free.

http://kotaku.com/shovel-knight-is-coming-to-switch-getting-a-new-struct-1791087602?utm_campaign=Socialflow_Kotaku_Facebook&utm_source=Kotaku_Facebook&utm_medium=Socialflow

[Rare White Ape]

Confirmed at the presentation:

March 3 worldwide release
$299.99 USD

[Rare White Ape]

40 minutes into the live stream and no mention of Breath of the Wild yet.

However:
1,2 Switch at launch - a tech-demo-y party title. Think Wii Play or Nintendo Land.

Arms - a fighting game that uses the Joy-Cons (which have full waggle and what they call HD rumble) for input.

Splatoon 2 mid-year

Super Mario Odyssey due for release in Q4

Shin Megami Tensei

Xenoblade 2

Skyrim

FIFA 17

The Joy-Cons will be available separately in red and blue. They'll feature L and R buttons along the 'rail' which connects to the console. You can buy a thin rail connector which features a wrist strap and raised buttons. The advanced haptic feedback will be able to give the impression of ice in a glass, or even a glass filling with water. The right Joy-Con has an IR camera that can detect distance and shape, such as rock-paper-scissors. The left Joy-Con has a share button for screenshots, and later for video capture.

[Kchrpm]

Those teasing mother fuckers, leave it for the very last moment! Awesome BOTW trailer, launch date release!

[Rare White Ape]

Cheeky buggers. Finishing with BotW of course.

Trailer reveals Zelda, voice acting, family of Hyrule, Ganon, and something that happened 100 years ago.

AVAILABLE AT LAUNCH

*fist pump*

[Kchrpm]

If you want to relive it


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uuC4YLLkqME

Presentation starts 33 minutes in.