Politics II (was: State of our Gran Turismo)

[Crazed_Insanity]

Or you could substitute GT with Good Times...

Yeah, it's amazing GranTurismo had attracted folks from all walks of life, from the son of an USAF officer to some crazy person like Billi..., but we all still had a pretty good time for years, didn't we? ;)

Yeah, I remember a time when we all got along enough and were having great times online. I also remember polling the entire board a while back regarding who might end up winning the white house? And I think our very own GTF poll predicted a Bush win! So I think back then we were reflecting 'America' or perhaps even the world pretty good...

In a way, I think we are still reflecting our current culture pretty good... with less and less of GT, we're experiencing more and more polarization and less and less diverse views...

I can totally understand using political ideology as a yardstick to measure up politicians, but should we really use that to measure up our friends as well?

Anyway, I don't really wish to discuss any specific politics because that can only further highlight our differences..., I just think people ought to try to seek more common grounds and focus more on that... on what made you want to be friends with that person in the first place. Rather than allowing politics to poison your relationships as if nothing else in life matters... politics trumps everything?!?!?!? Is political profiling the way of the future when it comes to connecting with somebody?

Also, American people have already partially realized Dr. King's dream and elected a president for 8 years based solely on the content of his character rather than his skin color. I honestly don't believe majority of Americans are capable of all of a sudden going back to become more racist again... The popular votes proves this point! Plus, I'm sure Trump votes are not made up mostly by the members of the Nazi party or the KKK.

I can't say everything will be okay under the Trump Admin, but reality is that everything was not okay under the Obama Admin too. Real world has its problems. No single party can solve all of its problems, but we're all trying our best. Regardless of who's in charge, I do believe things will get better in general because of humanity's problem solving skills, just like stock markets will only rise over time. Gran Turismo graphics and gameplay can only improve with time regardless of who's living in the white house!

Let's try to not allow political ideologies to run or ruin our lives please?

[Kchrpm]

So you no longer want to participate in the politics thread, you'd just rather start a new thread about the exact subject we were talking about in the politics thread. Got it.

I'm not going to bother replying with the same thing I've already told you multiple times, because you are incapable of understanding.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Except you just did reply dude!

This GT thread is my anti-politics thread actually. I'm hoping people can stop focusing on politics. Hope you understand.

[MR2 Fan]

https://media.giphy.com/media/11gC4odpiRKuha/giphy.gif

[tigeraid]

https://media.giphy.com/media/4pMX5rJ4PYAEM/giphy.gif

[drew]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wj7-vHMSnIY

[Jason]

"Back in the day" there were fewer options to talk among communities. Now there's all sorts of spaces to participate in, and you don't need to stay in a space in which you don't really get along with your peers. It's pretty much common sense. Does it suck from a certain personal and/or emotional perspective? Sure, I suppose, if you're nostalgic.

[G'day Mate]

"Back in the day" there were always plenty of other polarising personalities, like Roofer for example.

[FaultyMario]

The state of my gran turismo (6) is probably around 30%.

Far from the 98% i got stuck at in GT2.

[Cam]

I'm done talking politics, let's talk about GT.

:blahblah: Politics. :blahblah:

:erm:

[Crazed_Insanity]

Jason, of course I'm nostalgic..., but I'm not really interested in turning back time, I just think it'd be for our collective good to continue to be "friends" or at least friendly with people outside of our "political" group so that we're not just living inside of our own social/political 'bubble' and pretend that people outside of that bubble don't really exist... or should just goto hell or we should just fuck them all or whatever fits your ideology.

I'm not a Republican and I'm not a roofer, but I still love Roofer and I do miss him. Roofer is more than his rants. I'm sure most of you still love him too..., you just can't stand his rants... also he left on his own... so I'm not trying to make any judgment calls or place blames or whatever... Nor am I really trying to get people excited about Gran Turismo again...

I just want to remind folks that it's not very healthy to politicize human relationships too much.

[tigeraid]

Relevant: I haven't touched a Gran Turismo game in over a decade.

Actually GT4 I would think, since the PS2 was the last console I ever owned.

Shit I'm old. :|

[speedpimp]

Fuck politics. Fuck Billi/y/e.

[G'day Mate]

Ooh I know - let's all go back to talking about religion :assclown:

[Godson]

Ooh I know - let's all go back to talking about religion :assclown:

Can you run for President?

[G'day Mate]

Of the GTXF?

[SkylineObsession]

Maybe i'm one of the few who see the point of this topic? From what i get out of it he means to say that we've lost enough members/friends/close friendships here as it is, without losing more (latest incident with roofer?) over strong opinions of politics, race relations or whatever the topic of the day is.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but even i've noticed some rather intense back and forth discussion in certain topics lately, and it has me a little worried too as it's almost petty and pointless to be arguing about it as it won't change anything. Let your opinion be known, and leave it at that? I dunno.

Just everyone calm down a little, huh? Be a little nicer to each other. Put a smiley face in every post. Buy some flowers. Eat good food. Drive nice cars. And play more bloody video games together!

I understand what you mean Billi, in a way i miss the old days too (not the Mustang-man days - would rather that never happened). People need to stop growing up, and get back to their game consoles/devices. That's how we all met...

[Tom Servo]

I both agree and disagree.

Billi - you make me fucking crazy with your black & white arguments. You stir the pot constantly by essentially saying things like "Oh, well, if you don't think men are always right, then you must think women are always right!" It's infuriating, and it's why I muted you, because I could rarely stand to let that sort of insanity go without challenge.

Then again, when it's not a Pit Stop thread, I generally hit "view post". And I did here. I see what you're saying. To a point, I agree.

On the other hand, I refuse to take any ownership of the recent schism that's ended up on FB (I'm still not sure if it's okay to name names - I got yelled at the last time I did it). We all know who I'm talking about. I think we all have boundaries that we normally abide by. I mentioned the friend of my wife's family who posted something I couldn't more possibly disagree with more on FB. I didn't comment, because I don't know these people well enough. I'll come off like an unhinged lunatic. The person who I will refer to as 'R' from now on does not have that. He's getting into fights with my family members, my close friends, and forcing me to defend being friends with someone who literally seems like he's out just to be an asshole. He's disrupting my life. Fuck that guy. The only reason I'm still friends with him is that I don't want to give him the satisfaction of being able to gloat that the "tolerant liberal" finally gave up on him.

He's an asshole. He always has been. I think more and more about the few times I've met him in real life and realized he's always been an asshole. He likes to push your buttons, then act like it's your fault that you're mad at him.

I like to think that I can debate people fairly. I'm probably wrong, but I even managed to come to a common ground with 'R' a few years ago, so I think that makes me the greatest debater of all time.

Back to the subject at hand, we've been at this nearly 20 years. There is no other community I've belonged to longer than this. I'm super proud of my group of friends from all over the world, you included, Billi. Not every aspect will be happy and wonderful, but as internet communities go this has been hugely successful.

[SkylineObsession]

I'm the same (as your last paragraph), no other forum have i posted in as much as this one (have been in one or two others for a longer time but those forums are dead or ones i don't visit anymore) and it's always good to see familiar names pop up from time to time (as well as us regulars) too. That's why it sucks so much when we lose someone.

For the most part, you peeps rock. :random:

[FaultyMario]

I miss the old days too, but I'm glad they're behind us now, I'm glad we met, but I'm more glad that we've grown up together.

Some of us, at least.

[Rare White Ape]

I'm not the sort of guy who unfriends or hides people from my social media circles, unless they're a particularly special cupcake. Not many people have earned that distinction from me.

One of those is LHutton, and I actively (and somewhat jokingly) asked to have all of his posts automatically changed to Darude - Sandstorm during that whole blacks vs cops and Brexit fucking thing. I'd have stood by that decision if it were made in seriousness, and I think it should still happen if he was to return here. Seriously.

Another one of those special cupcakes is Roofer. I never unfriended him on Facebook, but I did hide his posts back before it was cool to hate Obama. It didn't surprise me when his head popped up in spectacular fashion last week, but I had totally forgotten he existed, so that was nice for a while. At best he is a pathetic one-eyed sideshow, at worst he forcefully campaigns for the loss of people's rights, especially for anyone who's a minority, or doesn't fit his ideal flag-waving America. So fuck him.

Billi, I'm more tolerant than a few people that you and I both know, which is why I don't particularly go out of my way to call you a backward hyper religious cunt that often. I still think you have some value to add, unlike the two noggins listed above, and I do respect your 'unique' brand of interactions with the rest of us outside of religion or politics threads. Since I don't hate you, in your 'unique' view I guess it means I love you. In reality it's more correct to say that we're just casual acquaintances. Jesus teaches you to love people, but man, I wish you could also learn to friend zone people as well. Seriously.

Now I don't have the patience to go looking through the politics thread so I don't know what has been said between yourself and the rest of the crew, but I can imagine the gist of what has been said. And since you have taken it upon yourself to start this new thread and draw attention to it, I imagine it hasn't been pretty. You have to remember that this forum is populated by an overwhelming majority of friendly, almost lefty hippies that hate bigotry and racism in all its forms. The guys here are like the anti-Roofers of the world. Our friends have at times been gays and blacks and Asians and Muslims. Do I like them just because they're gay or black or Asian or Muslim? Nope. I like them because I like them, and I am sure that the others here feel the same way. Remember that.

[G'day Mate]

Hang on, Roofer made a recent appearance?

[drew]

Dave, it was a FB post I made, about Trump's claim that the protesters were paid by CNN. 'R' rebutted with an article from "youngcons" (one of the most slanted "news" sites out there). I mentioned that fact, and it went downhill from there.

His mindset is that if you don't agree with him, you are 100% against him. I explained to him that I think he is mistaken how "personal opinions" work. Just because I don't agree with him, doesn't mean I'm his "enemy". But looking back through the years, that's always been the case.

I replied once, he replied to that, with another "youngcons" article, and telling me I need to look at more than the mainstream "liberal" media. I then bowed out, with "I will agree to disagree".

Then, it all went to shit. Others commented (offering counter argumnets, actual facts), and it just went on a rocket sled to hell.

I took the high ground (or the best I could), and deleted the whole thing.


To Michael's last point, I agree 100%. I like all you guys, because I like you guys (even the Aussies). Had it not been for GT2, I may have never had the pleasure of knowing you fuckers. I wouldn't change it for anything :finger:

[M4FFU]

One of those is LHutton,

He was JamelCamel, right?

[Rare White Ape]

Hang on, Roofer made a recent appearance?

Not here, as Drew said it was on Facebook.

He commented on one of my posts early on after the election, and I missed my opportunity to make a delicious retort. Later on he went full retard on some other comment thread. Rob was even in there swinging verbal punches. It was fantastic, just like old times.

He's always been the same old neo-liberal trainwreck, just now more emboldened by the post-Obama climate. He even said, in full seriousness, that he's happy that Trump will ditch socialist Obamacare because American citizens will regain their liberty.

Never mind that the definition of liberty is freedom from governmental tyranny.

And that offering to pay for your basic healthcare is far from a tyrannical act.

But anyways...

[G'day Mate]

Oh ok. Never face friended the guy, but I can remember things going to hell when opinions got involved during some PMs we exchanged ... probably a decade ago. He liked skiing though. Wasn't he an instructor? I think he had some tips on that.

I don't usually buy into drama. It seems to happen around me and I still manage to hold almost everyone in positive regard, both online and in real life. Almost everyone

[Rare White Ape]

Yeah I don't think I've ever seen you say a single bad thing about anyone.

Me? I sometimes get grumpy and complainy about people and that's how I roll.

[Cam]

R even blocked Fogelhund, one of the most level-headed and politically moderate guys here. :lol:

[Tom Servo]

Wait, he's blocking people? That's going to make any future comments about how intolerant liberals are because they block him hilarious.

[Cam]

Like I keep saying, he's a troll and a hypocrite. *shrug*

In case you missed it, he called the GTX a "sewer full of communists." :lol:

[G'day Mate]

Yeah I don't think I've ever seen you say a single bad thing about anyone.

Fuck you.

[novicius]

He's always been the same old neo-liberal trainwreck
Neo-con turned Alt-right, unfortunately. :(

Tom, he unfriended me but I didn't block him -- does that win me anything? :lol:

Still don't know why Rob left -- because of Billi?

[Cam]

Simply put, Rob got bored of this forum.

[novicius]

Ah well there's that -- that's also the same reason all of Beam Team is gone.

[tigeraid]

Rob's still being Rob, he just doesn't have billi to argue with anymore. So he's slightly more sedate.

[Kchrpm]

This community has lasted far longer than it "should" have, through numerous moves, multiple owner/moderator breakdowns, family building, family splitting, broken couches and spilled fry sauce. The amount of activity and contact we have with each other still amazes me. BRYAN'S A GOD DAMN REAL RACE CAR DRIVER NOW AND WE HAD A MINUSCULE AMOUNT OF INFLUENCE ON THAT!

Could it be better? Sure. Could we have not moved farther apart? Sure. But people grow up and grow apart. It happens with childhood friends, high school friends, college friends, work friends, bar hopping friends, why wouldn't it happen with video game internet forum friends?

Appreciate the time we have together, look back fondly at the times you used to have, smile as you think about how great of a time you're going to have in the future, and don't worry about it.

As for unfriending people on Facebook, meh. Facebook friends are not real friends, by definition. They can overlap, but I have unfriended and been unfriended by close friends and family, because the way we use FB doesn't "click". It's just a tool, it's not the official record.

[MR2 Fan]

This community has lasted far longer than it "should" have, through numerous moves, multiple owner/moderator breakdowns, family building, family splitting, broken couches and spilled fry sauce. The amount of activity and contact we have with each other still amazes me. BRYAN'S A GOD DAMN REAL RACE CAR DRIVER NOW AND WE HAD A MINUSCULE AMOUNT OF INFLUENCE ON THAT!

Could it be better? Sure. Could we have not moved farther apart? Sure. But people grow up and grow apart. It happens with childhood friends, high school friends, college friends, work friends, bar hopping friends, why wouldn't it happen with video game internet forum friends?

Appreciate the time we have together, look back fondly at the times you used to have, smile as you think about how great of a time you're going to have in the future, and don't worry about it.

As for unfriending people on Facebook, meh. Facebook friends are not real friends, by definition. They can overlap, but I have unfriended and been unfriended by close friends and family, because the way we use FB doesn't "click". It's just a tool, it's not the official record.

:up:

[Cam]

I use FB to keep up with my real friends' real-life activities. I hide or block everything shared from click-bait and "news" sites. I normally do not friend people I have not met in real life. I have the GTX friends, of course, but except for y'all and a couple of artists, I know most of my FB friends through real life. I avoid discussing contentious issues and mostly post for LOLs and smiles.

[21Kid]

So you no longer want to participate in the politics thread, you'd just rather start a new thread about the exact subject we were talking about in the politics thread. Got it.

I'm not going to bother replying with the same thing I've already told you multiple times, because you are incapable of understanding.


https://media.giphy.com/media/11gC4odpiRKuha/giphy.gif
:lol: Billi being Billi.

Simply put, Rob got bored of this forum.He also felt it was a lot of duplication between here and Facebook. And he has more friend on Facebook.

I wish the Beam Team frequented either here or Facebook. They rarely post on either, with the exception of Nigel.

Roofer blocked me years ago. Can't say I miss him. :(

[drew]

I want to hug Cam.

[21Kid]

among other things... ;)

[Cam]

Yeah, I'm one charming mofo. :P

I don't blame the Beam Team for not frequenting online social areas. They are out living their real lives and having a good time doing it. *shrug*

[Cam]

I want to hug Cam.
You are welcome to visit any time. We have a spare guest suite. :)

The offer is good for all my GTX friends, of course. Keep in mind we have a dog.

[Kchrpm]

Agreed. They have kids and live in Colorado, which, from my understanding, is amazing for outdoor activities.

[Cam]

I had to unfollow NQ today. I had enough of seeing him "like" alt-right stuff, much of which is bigoted. It was tough, as I have hung out with him in real life and talked with him on the phone numerous times. :(

[novicius]

I avoid discussing contentious issues and mostly post for LOLs and smiles.
Same here -- that's why I usually only post about comics, cars & motorcycles. :up: #fluff

[Cam]

I know. I hide all that junk. :p

[Rikadyn]

I don't even remember who half of you are most the time :P

[21Kid]

You are welcome to visit any time. We have a spare guest suite. :)

The offer is good for all my GTX friends, of course. Keep in mind we have a dog.
:D :up: Same here for Chicago. We also have kids... and a cat... and guinea pigs. :lol:

I had to unfollow NQ today. I had enough of seeing him "like" alt-right stuff, much of which is bigoted. It was tough, as I have hung out with him in real life and talked with him on the phone numerous times. :( I had to unfollow him when he had the countdown to Obama leaving office 4 years ago. :(

[Crazed_Insanity]

I'm not really roofers FB friend so I don't mind mentioning him by his gtf name... :p thanks for sharing how he fucked things up for you on FB. Yeah, that's classic roofer alright! ;)

He is probably your typical Trump supporter. However, Just out of curiosity, do you guys really believe roofer is a racist who would enjoy going backwards in time and take away minority rights?

BTW, who are the Beam Team and why are they called the beam team?

[Cam]

He didn't eff FB for me. :rolleyes:

I hardly know him, but I really doubt he would openly admit that he's a bigot even if he was. However, he seems to agree with a lot of alt-right stuff that is bigoted and seems proud of the fact he helped elect a president who based his campaign on bigotry (deport immigrants, register/block muslims, etc.)

But hey, you're not going to talk politics anymore.

Beam Team includes effingham, Samurai Nigel, BJ and maybe some others I'm forgetting. They are named after Jim Beam, as they enjoy consuming alcohol.

[sandydandy]

Just out of curiosity, do you guys really believe roofer is a racist who would enjoy going backwards in time and take away minority rights? I don't necessarily think he's a racist, though I have seen him support ideas from sources that are racist. Maybe he doesn't see that as racist. I really don't know.

I had it out with him as well the morning after the election, but we kind of made peace afterwards behind the scenes. I've always had a soft spot for Roofer, I think he's a hard working and strong minded guy, and because we're kind of alike in terms of our business situations. This goes way back. Plus I'm more fiscally and economically conservative, but not socially, and that's where we differ. He assured me that he wasn't racist...yet the next day I saw his verbal exchange with Drew where he referred to "barbaric Islam" and I'm left feeling confused and with some egg on my face. I haven't questioned him about it, and probably won't bother.


I had to unfollow NQ today. I had enough of seeing him "like" alt-right stuff, much of which is bigoted. It was tough, as I have hung out with him in real life and talked with him on the phone numerous times. :( I did that a while ago. Still like and respect him enormously, but I don't need to see that shit on my newsfeed.

I don't de-friend and block people...it's just something I don't do.

[novicius]

I know. I hide all that junk. :p

Aww Cammm...

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[Tom Servo]

I thought I unfollowed NQ, but he does appear on my feed quite a bit. I'm mostly just seeing him posting various things about how unfair it is that he has to deal with idiots all day, that now is the time for us all to unite, and about puppies. Lemme check - nope, still following him. Maybe he just calmed down on the political postings. I've tried to do the same - I'll post political things that I think are funny, though I have to admit that over the last week I've posted more political things than I normally do. I then try to make sure what I post is undeniably true, like the thing about headlines on Breitbart under Bannon's watch.

For the record, I've also unfollowed people who are constantly posting links to dailykos, thinkprogress, rightwingwatch, etc etc etc. Those guys are just as guilty of having false news articles.

And to further what Cam said, I'm actually pretty choosy about who I friend on Facebook. If I don't know you from real life, we're not friends on FB, with the exception of people here. I've met a lot of you but almost every FB friend I have that I haven't met in real life is a GTXer.

[Cam]

Carlo, you shared that from the internet. *hides all from novicius* ;)

[Kchrpm]

They are named after Jim Beam, as they enjoy consuming alcohol.
Never knew that. I was a temporary member of the team when we were in Carlo/Stacie's basement for a LAN party, and I thought it was just a play on B team. The more you know :up:

There are varying levels of racism and the like. Everyone has some amount of it, it's part of how a species survives: pattern identification, transfer of knowledge, things like that. The gene that said "I'll give everything a fair chance!" ate poisonous berries or tried to pet a sleeping wolf in some pre-human era.

There are plenty of people out there who grew up around blatant use of the n-word and refusal to let colored people into a restaurant, and they think they're not racist because they're polite when they run into the one black family in town. But they've never met someone from a Middle Eastern country, or a Muslim, so all they know is of the things assigned to them in major stories, and they then extrapolate from there.

[21Kid]

Never knew that. I was a temporary member of the team when we were in Carlo/Stacie's basement for a LAN party, and I thought it was just a play on B team. The more you know :up: It was. More like a combination of the two. B=Beam

[Crazed_Insanity]

Yeah, people's idea of racism can vary widely..., but I was referring to the more extreme form such as kkk or neo-nazi. I am pretty sure roofer would not be members of those groups, right?

I see roofer as the typical trump supporter, thus I don't believe most of the trump supporters are racists that way... Would want to go back to segregation for example.

Anyway, I have little faith for the current political establishment whether it's right or left, but I do a have sufficient faith that our current system has enough chk and balance in place to prevent somebody like hitler hijacking our govt. I also have sufficient faith that most Americans are not on board with neo-nazism or kkk. Like Obama said, our course might zig zag a bit, but I'm pretty confident that we will eventually reach a better final destination. There's no need for the party of zig to hate the party of zag and vice versa. We're all on the same team.

Reach out to your friends on the other side. We shouldn't allow left/right wing media to speak for us as if we're supposed to be mortal enemies...

[Kchrpm]

The idea that only KKK and Neo-Nazis are racists is part of the problem.

I thought you didn't want to talk politics? Yes, we can be friends with people that we disagree with on political issues. It is tough to be friendly with people who think that how much money they have to spend on their family vacation is more important than treating minorities with respect. I do it at work because I am paid to be there. I'm not going to do it in my leisure time. Why should I? Just because we liked the same video game 15-20 years ago? That's nice and all, and it adds to the base respect I have for all human beings trying to make it through this struggle that is our own tiny existence in this massive universe that's existed and will continue to exist for billions of years no matter what we do, but don't expect me to spend too much time apologizing to myself for someone that throws everyone else under the bus so that their American dream is extra dreamy.

[FaultyMario]

:Orson Welles clapping:

[tigeraid]

I've spent the entire year purposefully trying not to argue about politics on facebook... Much like Cam I block and un-follow any bigoted nonsense I can. But goddamn it's hard. I have friends that rarely speak a word of politics in person, but will constantly Like and Share the stupidest bigoted shit on the planet.

On the one hand, I want (and tried, for a bit) to live the mantra that people like Sam Harris or Bill Maher talk about: sit them down and argue with them until you're blue in the face and prove them wrong. But goddamn it, it never works. And how can it, when they ignore facts, when the only see in hateful black and white? When they share fucking infowars links?

I keep wanting to quit, or at least take a big break, from facebook, but it's surprisingly hard. :smh:

[Crazed_Insanity]

Kchrpm, I personally have no problems talking politics, religion or whatever that may be hot buttons to lots of folks. Frankly, I enjoy talking about those things so that I can get a better understanding of what they're thinking..., I just don't like people getting too emotional/upset while talking about these things.

Anything that's too extreme is a problem, otherwise, I think we ought to learn to tolerate other kinds of -isms in moderation. KKK and the Nazi's should NOT be tolerated. They are problematic and need to be dealt with. Surely they are NOT the ONLY racial problems that we have, but they are clear cut enough for most to realize that what they're doing is just plain wrong. Just as Westboro Baptists are extremists and can be problematic... few would stand with these extremists. Just as most Muslims also would not stand with the so called radical islamic terrorists.

Now, besides those "clear cut" extreme cases, remember our disagreements in the political thread? We were only talking about why DNC lost the election for Christ's sake... and that was enough for you to lose it. Throwing me under the bus as one of those stupid ass racist conservatives who'd never understand as what a morally and intellectually superior person could.

People on both sides are throwing people on the other side under the buses. Both sides are looking down on the other side as if the other side deserved to be run over by buses. I picked neither side during this election, but makes no difference. Regardless of your political affiliation, if Billi's not with me, then Billi is against me. Whatever the outcome, the losing side can blame people like me... see, the other side won because of scums like you! You voted your conscience? Well fuck you for wasting your vote!

This is just fucking wrong.

We can like the same video game 15~20 years and come together, surely we can find more things in common and come together today... and in the future.

Growing up shouldn't have to be growing apart... and bitter. I have no desire to become a grumpy old man.

I'm hopeful for our future. Not because of the Trump Admin, but because of God! :)

Now, if God triggers the feeling to want to throw me under another bus, then let's just use the common phrase that 'good will always triump over evil in the long haul'. It happens in the Star Wars universe... and the Lord of the Ring world... ;) (If these movies/books are totally off base, then it would not have been so popular...)

[sandydandy]

I was referring to the more extreme form such as kkk or neo-nazi. I am pretty sure roofer would not be members of those groups, right I seriously doubt it. In fact I would say absolutely not.

[MR2 Fan]

Growing up shouldn't have to be growing apart... and bitter.

I'm hopeful for our future. Not because of the Trump Admin, but because of God! :)


Good news:

Donald Trump is in charge of approximately .0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 0000001% of the known universe

[Kchrpm]

We were only talking about why DNC lost the election for Christ's sake... and that was enough for you to lose it. Throwing me under the bus as one of those stupid ass racist conservatives who'd never understand as what a morally and intellectually superior person could.

No, I didn't. That's what you *think* I did, but that's not what I did. I said that, had people who had voted for a third-party candidate voted for Hillary, she would have won the electoral college. That is true. Or that if somewhere between 2/3rd and 3/4ths had voted for her and the rest for Trump, she would have won. That is also true.

Similarly, as others had pointed out, if the DNC had nominated someone more dynamic and less entrenched in a system that Americans from all sides are finding harder and harder to trust, that candidate most likely would have won.

But none of those things happened, and "stupid ass racist conservatives" got what they want, for any number of reasons.

Just because I say the result of the election is partially the fault of people like you does not mean that I think you're a "stupid ass racist conservative." You came up with that on your own just because I wouldn't agree with you.

[Kchrpm]

Growing up shouldn't have to be growing apart... and bitter.
It's not about growing up and becoming bitter, it's...

*sigh*

You have always been a shit-starter because of your slave-ish devotion to whatever book was stuck in your head. First you brought up The System all the damn time, when and where it was completely unnecessary and out of left field. We put up with you, and considered it a joke, just your thing. Then you switched that up and decided the Bible was your new thing. You brought it up even more, and, lucky you, you stumbled onto something that was a bit more inflammatory with certain people and segments.

Quite honestly I think a lot of people have grown tired of your shtick.

So if it seems like there's been a lot of bitterness on the forum lately, have you noticed that most of it has been directed towards you? And it's usually because you've been doing the same things over and over and over again for more than a decade, and people are getting tired of the fact that you never learn or grow? You just continue to plow forward, provide little or no evidence to back up your arguments, miscontrue what others say to make yourself the victim and them the bully, and then fall back on what God/The System tells you to do/say because they are an infallible guide. Over, and over, and over, and over, and over.

[21Kid]

... it adds to the base respect I have for all human beings trying to make it through this struggle that is our own tiny existence in this massive universe that's existed and will continue to exist for billions of years no matter what we do...
Dark Chocolate Krunch(R)

[Crazed_Insanity]

Anyway, regardless of how DNC lost, you believe in your theories and I believe in mine and we both wouldn't agree with each other..., but who was more upset with our discussion? You or me?

I left that thread alone because I felt like I was pointlessly annoying and angering you.

My point is that Trump supporters are mostly like Roofer and I'm pretty confident that most of the Trump supporters are not racists to the extreme.

There's still hope for our future.

Even in the worst case scenario that Trump is really Hitler II..., I'm pretty sure Roofer would be one of the 1st to take his gun to revolt against the evil Trump Admin himself!

[Crazed_Insanity]

It's not about growing up and becoming bitter, it's...

*sigh*

You have always been a shit-starter because of your slave-ish devotion to whatever book was stuck in your head. First you brought up The System all the damn time, when and where it was completely unnecessary and out of left field. We put up with you, and considered it a joke, just your thing. Then you switched that up and decided the Bible was your new thing. You brought it up even more, and, lucky you, you stumbled onto something that was a bit more inflammatory with certain people and segments.

Quite honestly I think a lot of people have grown tired of your shtick.

So if it seems like there's been a lot of bitterness on the forum lately, have you noticed that most of it has been directed towards you? And it's usually because you've been doing the same things over and over and over again for more than a decade, and people are getting tired of the fact that you never learn or grow? You just continue to plow forward, provide little or no evidence to back up your arguments, miscontrue what others say to make yourself the victim and them the bully, and then fall back on what God/The System tells you to do/say because they are an infallible guide. Over, and over, and over, and over, and over.

I know I'm quite a contrarian. I do have a thick skin so it's okay if you direct your anger specifically towards me. I deserve a lot of that, I get it.

However, this election season is different...

BTW, I still don't have any solid evidences to back up the System and the Bible, but they do work for me. Believe it or not. :p

[Tom Servo]

I'll agree with something I've been seeing floating around. You don't have to be racist to vote for Donald Trump. You do have to consider racism to not be a deal breaker, though. You do have to think it's okay that your gay friends may lose their marriage rights. You have to think it's okay that we might no longer grant citizenship to those born in this country. Like Roofer, you might say you're just all about the law, but somehow none of Trump's supporters seemed as upset about Melania coming and working here illegally as they are about somebody from Mexico.

You have to be okay that not only does someone who's not only shown a repeated pattern of sexual harassment/assault but also bragged about it not get punished, he gets rewarded. My wife was saying how she'd worked with bosses like that. Ones that say inappropriate things or get touchey. Ones who will fire you if you complain about it. This was a chance to see that behavior not be rewarded. Seeing him not only not get punished for that but rewarded with the presidency was heartbreaking to her, and I can understand why.

You've gotta be okay with someone who appears to be naming as his Attorney General one of the architects of GOP voter suppression that even the courts have said targets black voters specifically for disenfranchisement. You've gotta be okay with someone who claimed that Stop & Frisk was a good tactic, despite it being ruled unconstitutional because it targeted non-white people.

You have to be okay with someone who named as his running mate someone who believes in gay conversion therapy, has said that companies shouldn't hire gay people, and has advocated for arresting any gay couples that tried to apply for marriage licenses.

So, no, you don't have to be racist, or homophobic, or belong to the KKK to vote for Trump. But you have to be okay that he's hiring people and enacting policies that has the American Nazi party, the KKK, and Stormfront *thrilled*. I can see how anyone who will be directly affected by that would have a really, really hard time forgiving someone for voting for him. Or anyone who cares for anyone that might be targeted by a Trump administration, for that matter.

[MR2 Fan]

I'll agree with something I've been seeing floating around. You don't have to be racist to vote for Donald Trump. You do have to consider racism to not be a deal breaker, though. You do have to think it's okay that your gay friends may lose their marriage rights. You have to think it's okay that we might no longer grant citizenship to those born in this country. Like Roofer, you might say you're just all about the law, but somehow none of Trump's supporters seemed as upset about Melania coming and working here illegally as they are about somebody from Mexico.

You have to be okay that not only does someone who's not only shown a repeated pattern of sexual harassment/assault but also bragged about it not get punished, he gets rewarded. My wife was saying how she'd worked with bosses like that. Ones that say inappropriate things or get touchey. Ones who will fire you if you complain about it. This was a chance to see that behavior not be rewarded. Seeing him not only not get punished for that but rewarded with the presidency was heartbreaking to her, and I can understand why.

You've gotta be okay with someone who appears to be naming as his Attorney General one of the architects of GOP voter suppression that even the courts have said targets black voters specifically for disenfranchisement. You've gotta be okay with someone who claimed that Stop & Frisk was a good tactic, despite it being ruled unconstitutional because it targeted non-white people.

You have to be okay with someone who named as his running mate someone who believes in gay conversion therapy, has said that companies shouldn't hire gay people, and has advocated for arresting any gay couples that tried to apply for marriage licenses.

So, no, you don't have to be racist, or homophobic, or belong to the KKK to vote for Trump. But you have to be okay that he's hiring people and enacting policies that has the American Nazi party, the KKK, and Stormfront *thrilled*. I can see how anyone who will be directly affected by that would have a really, really hard time forgiving someone for voting for him. Or anyone who cares for anyone that might be targeted by a Trump administration, for that matter.

My only hope is that lazy progressives will finally get off their ass and vote next time so this doesn't happen again.

[Cam]

http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/de/de7e8f52d4bc820c9a623a2dbfd55400131f76a7534ea5dcb3 a1f95adf03a2df.jpg

[Jason]

My thing with politics and friendships... I don't care if a friend disagrees with me on things like tax brackets, or hell even universal healthcare... essentially basic policy items that are blind to race, sexuality, gender. I will, however, remove a friend from my life if they start supporting things that are racist, homophobic, and sexist. So yeah, you start railing on how Mexicans are lazy, or Muslims are terrorists, or gays are ruining marriage, or women should stay in the kitchen? Peace the fuck out. There's a certain amount of politics that reflect on the quality of one's character, so I think it's very fair to remove someone from your life over certain political beliefs.

Edit: As far as FB friends and GT, I basically only keep people on my personal profile that either I actively like, or haven't personally offended me. My photography profile I don't really care, unless I really don't like you. Rob is a good example of someone I agree with politically (from what I remember) but ended up blocking because I grew tired of his relentless trolling. Sure, I'm a big whiny baby at times, but sometimes you gotta ease up on being a dick if someone's going through some shit. Rob's the sort of guy that never eases up, at least online, anyways.

[Alan P]

Sometimes I have difficulty remembering who on FB is who on here. Other than that, fuck you guys, I'm staying.

Roofer even had a pop at me. And sent me a HUGE message via FB messenger. Did I say Fuck you guys yet? Oh right, I did. Sorry.

[SkylineObsession]

After family members and some friends kept getting the wrong message about things i was saying on Facebook (and they weren't heavy topics either, some just normal convos), and in particular my youngest brother and his partner constantly getting offended by my unoffensive posts (they didn't get my inoffensive jokes, or 'get' what i was actually saying/meaning?) i decided to 'leave' Facebook years ago.

Basically i blocked everyone (including some of ya'll i had on my friends list :( ), changed my name, hid or removed everything on my profile and went into radio silence (on the internet). The only reason i didn't delete my account, was because i run a few pages (still do) so kinda need to still have a presence on there. :/

But i haven't missed the bickering, arguing, misinterpreted status's/replies etc a single bit. Not worth the stress.

I'm still on the GTX FB group too, but never post.

And my younger brother situation has severely escalated. He hasn't spoken to me in person since i went to his wedding a couple years back (have only had a couple of texts, with a gap of a few years (?) until i wished him luck in his/their move elsewhere in NZ a few weeks ago), and he's also not speaking to either of my sisters (even my American born ten year old sister) or my other brother - or Dad. He's only talking to our step-mum who Dad bought back with him from the USA last year (after spending 10 years there).

It wasn't entirely Facebooks fault, but i'd say it played some part in it. Hopefully one day he starts talking to us again. He didn't even ring Dad personally after he got t-boned by a young speeder a week or two ago, and had to be cut out of the car. :twitch:

[2ndMoparMan]

Kinda glad that I don't have facebook and my only interaction with what remains of the GT community that I first joined way WAY back in Kenji's day is through here and some on twitter. Easier to avoid the bs.

[KillerB]

My thing with politics and friendships... I don't care if a friend disagrees with me on things like tax brackets, or hell even universal healthcare... essentially basic policy items that are blind to race, sexuality, gender. I will, however, remove a friend from my life if they start supporting things that are racist, homophobic, and sexist.

Yeah... that's clearly a new policy for you.

[Jason]

If you have a point to make, make it.

[KillerB]

You blocked me for some argument that I don't really remember, but was none of those three.

I should clarify, this was on FB.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Swervo, what you said is absolutely right. Can't argue with your post there.

However, I challenge you to write another post for the other side. Not sarcastically pretend that you're a racist, but start by why some one would not want to vote for Hillary.

For me, I can clearly see both sides of the issue. My #1 agenda is that I'm anti-establishment. The DNC in the end came up with the most mutherfoquen established candidate ever. That's why I initially wanted to go Trump, but by the same reasons you listed earlier, I just cannot vote for him... Hence the throw away Stein vote.

My thinking was if Hillary wins, then at least I can take comfort in knowing that things won't change much and she IS the most qualified. If Trump wins, then at least I take the pleasure at seeing our corrupt political establishment crushed to pieces.

Seriously, take Wells Fargo bank for example. Proud supporter of gay rights and the DNC, but have no problems screwing customers and investors from their behind. When caught, the upper management quickly fire lower level employees 1st. Upper management still get their millions and other than getting chewed out by Warren a bit, nobody goes to jail for that kind of fraud.

That's not evil in your eyes because gays got their rights?

[Jason]

You blocked me for some argument that I don't really remember, but was none of those three.

I should clarify, this was on FB.

If it wasn't for the above, then maybe it wasn't politically motivated.

[The359]

Imma cut to the chase and just block everyone. Facebook, on here, sexual text messages, all of it.

[KillerB]

If it wasn't for the above, then maybe it wasn't politically motivated.

I honestly can't say I remember anymore, but I'd be surprised if it wasn't. What else do people argue about on FB, anyway? :lol:

[Tom Servo]

Sometimes I have difficulty remembering who on FB is who on here. Other than that, fuck you guys, I'm staying.

Roofer even had a pop at me. And sent me a HUGE message via FB messenger. Did I say Fuck you guys yet? Oh right, I did. Sorry.

Was the big huge message related to the thread where I popped in? The one where he accidentally posted in the wrong sub-thread? I can't even imagine what kind of problem he could have had with what you were saying, you were downright cordial.

[Tom Servo]

Swervo, what you said is absolutely right. Can't argue with your post there.

However, I challenge you to write another post for the other side. Not sarcastically pretend that you're a racist, but start by why some one would not want to vote for Hillary.

For me, I can clearly see both sides of the issue. My #1 agenda is that I'm anti-establishment. The DNC in the end came up with the most mutherfoquen established candidate ever. That's why I initially wanted to go Trump, but by the same reasons you listed earlier, I just cannot vote for him... Hence the throw away Stein vote.

My thinking was if Hillary wins, then at least I can take comfort in knowing that things won't change much and she IS the most qualified. If Trump wins, then at least I take the pleasure at seeing our corrupt political establishment crushed to pieces.

Seriously, take Wells Fargo bank for example. Proud supporter of gay rights and the DNC, but have no problems screwing customers and investors from their behind. When caught, the upper management quickly fire lower level employees 1st. Upper management still get their millions and other than getting chewed out by Warren a bit, nobody goes to jail for that kind of fraud.

That's not evil in your eyes because gays got their rights?

I don't think I could write it with the same vitriol. That doesn't mean I don't see the other viewpoint.

While Obama did a good job of getting us out of the recession and increased the number of jobs, wages have remained stagnant while rich people have continued to rake in more and more. The pay gap is completely out of control, and it's having a particularly nasty effect out here in housing prices. I just ran a salary calculator that found we're both well in the top 90% of wage earners, but we still needed help to get a decent down payment on a place, and our mortgage is above the standard guidelines on how much of one's takehome pay one should be spending on housing. It's particularly bad here, but it's getting worse across the country. People who already own homes then fight off any new housing because, hell, they've already got theirs. You can go pound sand.

The bailout saved the very people who caused the crisis, and nobody went to jail. Whatever Hillary was saying in speeches to them, she can't be too proud of it if she wouldn't share it. She certainly didn't seem to be too concerned to bringing anyone to justice.

This administration was supposed to be about transparency, but was particularly harsh towards whistleblowers, including Edward Snowden and Chelsea Manning, and the way they've been treated is shameful. I have no reason to believe that she was planning to be more transparent than Obama.

Drone strikes may save our soldier's lives, but they just feed the insurgency. That helped ISIS recruit more than anything the opposition claimed.

The Affordable Care Act was far from perfect. In my opinion, it was hamstrung by an obstructionist Congress, and I consider it a first step to a incredibly important fix to our medical system. As evidence, we have private insurance through my wife's work and just got denied for her recent surgery for reasons that not only can we prove are incorrect, but that they were involved with as well and should be on their records. But in the meantime, it really made life difficult for a lot of people. I have a friend in Meridian, Idaho who found herself struggling to cover both her insurance premiums and her mortgage, and the premiums kept climbing. There is no doubt she'd be better off if she or her daughter got injured or sick, but in the short term it has massively decreased the quality of her life, she can barely afford food after the previous two payments.

Again - it's not black and white. It's not like I don't see things this or Clinton's administration would do that I consider wrong or even evil. But there were candidates on the other side who I don't fear might try to launch a nuke over a tweet. There were candidates who I don't think would try to systematically disenfranchise the people who might vote them out in four years. And in many cases, the bad things I've listed here I think Trump's administration would exacerbate.

I realize that most of those points are about Obama and his administration, and that's somewhat on purpose because Clinton was part of it and you've also stated that your position is anti-establishment, so pointing out the current establishment would apply. It's also that it's hard to judge her performance as president since she wasn't one. If you asked me to say that things she said she planned to do were as evil as what Trump said, I doubt I could even get close.

[Rare White Ape]

And you're kidding yourself if you think Trump will topple the establishment in any sort of tremendous fashion.

[neanderthal]

I'll agree with something I've been seeing floating around. You don't have to be racist to vote for Donald Trump. You do have to consider racism to not be a deal breaker, though. You do have to think it's okay that your gay friends may lose their marriage rights. You have to think it's okay that we might no longer grant citizenship to those born in this country. Like Roofer, you might say you're just all about the law, but somehow none of Trump's supporters seemed as upset about Melania coming and working here illegally as they are about somebody from Mexico.

You have to be okay that not only does someone who's not only shown a repeated pattern of sexual harassment/assault but also bragged about it not get punished, he gets rewarded. My wife was saying how she'd worked with bosses like that. Ones that say inappropriate things or get touchey. Ones who will fire you if you complain about it. This was a chance to see that behavior not be rewarded. Seeing him not only not get punished for that but rewarded with the presidency was heartbreaking to her, and I can understand why.

You've gotta be okay with someone who appears to be naming as his Attorney General one of the architects of GOP voter suppression that even the courts have said targets black voters specifically for disenfranchisement. You've gotta be okay with someone who claimed that Stop & Frisk was a good tactic, despite it being ruled unconstitutional because it targeted non-white people.

You have to be okay with someone who named as his running mate someone who believes in gay conversion therapy, has said that companies shouldn't hire gay people, and has advocated for arresting any gay couples that tried to apply for marriage licenses.

So, no, you don't have to be racist, or homophobic, or belong to the KKK to vote for Trump. But you have to be okay that he's hiring people and enacting policies that has the American Nazi party, the KKK, and Stormfront *thrilled*. I can see how anyone who will be directly affected by that would have a really, really hard time forgiving someone for voting for him. Or anyone who cares for anyone that might be targeted by a Trump administration, for that matter.

Bravo.

I don't care what your policies and dogmas are, but when you vote for/ support someone who has been openly racist, xenophobic, sexist, jingoistic, and bigoted as Trump clearly was during his campaign, especially if the entirety of your basis for supporting him is "you can't trust Hillary because of the emails" then you're telling me that I can't trust you for shit. And you're telling me that your confirmation bias for your politics is more important than being a decent fucking human being. And I gots no time for that.

Oh, and can we stop calling it the Alt right and call it what it is; racist, or flat out racism. Giving it the title alt right legitimises the entire affair from the moderately racist who are no longer racist but alt right, to the far out racists who are no longer as far out but just moderately racist.

[Yw-slayer]

To be fair, there is probably a point to this thread - the original Politics thread was about general politics. This thread is (or I think was intended to be) more about how we treat each other on the board. That said, the latter topic is inextricably entwined with politics, so...

[Crazed_Insanity]

KB and Jason, since all are forgotten, why not take the opportunity to kiss and make up? After all this is the whole point of the thread!

Servo, you also wrote an excellent counter argument, I'm not sure if I have anything more to add to that..., but I'll respond with some more commentary tomorrow... Need to catch some zzzzzzzz...

[Alan P]

Was the big huge message related to the thread where I popped in? The one where he accidentally posted in the wrong sub-thread? I can't even imagine what kind of problem he could have had with what you were saying, you were downright cordial.

It was, yes. It wasn't a direct attack on me, far from it, more of a monologue or diatribe. I admire a man who is firm in his beliefs, but they need to be open to alternative views as well. I love a healthy debate but lose interest when it becomes an argument.

[drew]

Thus is how "discussions" go with him.

You offer a counter point, rage ensues, and the yelling starts.


Because, "counter opinion to mine = enemies, and they have to see it my way, or I'm going to rage quit".


Sadly, looking at it now, it's always been that way.

[novicius]

:(

[FaultyMario]

Imma cut to the chase and just block everyone. Facebook, on here, sexual text messages, all of it.

What?

:sadbanana:

[The359]

:lol:

[MR2 Fan]

I'm not FB friends with any of you, so I guess I'm one step ahead :D

[Crazed_Insanity]

And you're kidding yourself if you think Trump will topple the establishment in any sort of tremendous fashion.

Well, for sure he has caused a disruption to the current political establishment. He has demonstrated that he's willing to declare war against the RNC. He has also destroyed the DNC thru general election. I'm sure the 'establishment' will eventually re-establish contact again..., but at least for now, Trump has established "himself" onto the US political scene.

Anyway, back to my discussion with Swervo..., I'm not really a conservative, and I haven't really heard anything in detail regarding why they supported Trump. All I know is that our "establishment" is what's scaring me the most and I don't want status quo. I also don't want a opportunistic Trump either, and his inappropriate remarks made him un-electable for me.

I really think Wells Fargo is the perfect representation of this current establishment. Pro-minority, women, gay rights and cool and sparkling on the outside, but who knows what they're doing to screw over the commoners... whether it's lower level employees or customers.

This elitist group has ignored the interests of middle class America. It has also outright disregard the lives of non-Americans abroad thru military show of force or out-right wars. A lot of you might think that I'm a conspiracy theorist for saying this, but I wouldn't be surprised to learn that it is our 'establishment' who created the terrorists and our current political polarization. When the commoners are afraid or fighting amongst themselves, they not only won't care what you do, but will also actually look upon you for help and give you more powers.

I say this because I honestly see little or no difference between W and O when it comes to dealing with the bankers(elite), war strategies, transparency of our government... Seriously Obama, what are you trying to hide from us? What is so top secret?

Anyway, it's obvious that Donald Trump shouldn't be the answer to my concerns. We really needed somebody like Bernie Sanders... somebody who's not only anti-establishment, but also with integrity.

If it were an election between Trump and Sanders and Sanders lost, I think I will definitely also join the protesters and protest my hardest against 'racism'. I think I just might lose faith in the American people in general...

But as it is, it's really hard for me to pick which side is less evil... and it really hurts to see American people hate each other so much all because they were manipulated by the establishment and Trump. Sigh...

[Dicknose]

You are welcome to visit any time. We have a spare guest suite. :)

The offer is good for all my GTX friends, of course. Keep in mind we have a dog.

So how about that eclipse next year!

[Cam]

If the civil war has not started yet, by all means, come visit.

[G'day Mate]

Can I bring my dog?

[SkylineObsession]

Can we bring our cat?

Actually no, she doesn't like travelling.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I was gonna say, our travels have been severely limited by our cats!!!

Hey, how about some cat pictures or video?

[Cam]

Can I bring my dog?
Yes.

[Cam]

Can we bring our cat?
Yes.

[Tom Servo]

https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/14915520_1490820857601433_7015300786460589470_n.jp g?oh=6b2c253428ead75199446a65bd6ca642&oe=58D30D05

https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/14900519_1490823207601198_1638397038591552399_n.jp g?oh=0ad87ea6f2cb430012b91d7d05961cac&oe=58B8F693

[SkylineObsession]

Meh, why not.

Ember. But we call her fluff/fluffers/mac mac/etc.
2039
2040
2041
2043
2044

My kitteh (white one) Cuty, sadly put down a few years back from old age. :( This pic was taken about ten or so years ago, maybe closer to 15.
2042

[neanderthal]

Well, for sure he has caused a disruption to the current political establishment. He has demonstrated that he's willing to declare war against the RNC. He has also destroyed the DNC thru general election. I'm sure the 'establishment' will eventually re-establish contact again..., but at least for now, Trump has established "himself" onto the US political scene.

Anyway, back to my discussion with Swervo..., I'm not really a conservative, and I haven't really heard anything in detail regarding why they supported Trump. All I know is that our "establishment" is what's scaring me the most and I don't want status quo. I also don't want a opportunistic Trump either, and his inappropriate remarks made him un-electable for me.

I really think Wells Fargo is the perfect representation of this current establishment. Pro-minority, women, gay rights and cool and sparkling on the outside, but who knows what they're doing to screw over the commoners... whether it's lower level employees or customers.

This elitist group has ignored the interests of middle class America. It has also outright disregard the lives of non-Americans abroad thru military show of force or out-right wars. A lot of you might think that I'm a conspiracy theorist for saying this, but I wouldn't be surprised to learn that it is our 'establishment' who created the terrorists and our current political polarization. When the commoners are afraid or fighting amongst themselves, they not only won't care what you do, but will also actually look upon you for help and give you more powers.

I say this because I honestly see little or no difference between W and O when it comes to dealing with the bankers(elite), war strategies, transparency of our government... Seriously Obama, what are you trying to hide from us? What is so top secret?

Anyway, it's obvious that Donald Trump shouldn't be the answer to my concerns. We really needed somebody like Bernie Sanders... somebody who's not only anti-establishment, but also with integrity.

If it were an election between Trump and Sanders and Sanders lost, I think I will definitely also join the protesters and protest my hardest against 'racism'. I think I just might lose faith in the American people in general...

But as it is, it's really hard for me to pick which side is less evil... and it really hurts to see American people hate each other so much all because they were manipulated by the establishment and Trump. Sigh...

Are you shitting me?

After all you've said about the system and the establishment you're then going to say that?

Never mind the homophobia, misogyny, racism, xenophobia, etc. lets skip all that and go straight to his economic policy which is trickle down theory demonstrably proven to work in the exact. opposite. way. it is advertised in the few places it has been implemented. Woe to the middle class, jobs, social services, etc and the rich get richer in the meanwhile.

And you can't decide who is less evil... Gerrarahere!

[Yw-slayer]

Never mind the homophobia, misogyny, racism, xenophobia, etc.

Because Bible, dude.

[George]

https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/14900519_1490823207601198_1638397038591552399_n.jp g?oh=0ad87ea6f2cb430012b91d7d05961cac&oe=58B8F693

The maid is neglecting her duties! There is dust under the strings of that Les Paul! :smh:

Neat cats posted here. I never thought I'd become a cat fancier, but I have, thanks to my wife. Maybe we need a cat thread to counter-balance the Politics thread.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Are you shitting me?

After all you've said about the system and the establishment you're then going to say that?

Never mind the homophobia, misogyny, racism, xenophobia, etc. lets skip all that and go straight to his economic policy which is trickle down theory demonstrably proven to work in the exact. opposite. way. it is advertised in the few places it has been implemented. Woe to the middle class, jobs, social services, etc and the rich get richer in the meanwhile.

And you can't decide who is less evil... Gerrarahere!

Hey, lots of folks were very happy with Reagan. In modern US history, he was the only president who managed the keep the White House occupied by the same party.

Further, I was not promoting trumps Econ policy nor was I saying Hillary's Econ policy is evil. I was saying the establishment fucking middle class Americans and Arabs in the Middle East as evil. O and W are practically the same president from that perspective...

Anyway, are you sure you want to discuss politics with me? If you know you're right and I'm evil then let's just conclude our discussion as that. I don't want you to suffer a heart attack because of me.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Here's a technique to help people calm the foque down:
B(reath)
R(hythmically)
E(venly)
A(t)
T(he)
H(eart)

Basically to maintain steady and smooth breathing while focusing at your heart.

This is not really yoga or based on religious BS, but on science. If you want to understand more about this technique: http://youtu.be/fRItG9G1rb4

[Crazed_Insanity]

The maid is neglecting her duties! There is dust under the strings of that Les Paul! :smh:

Neat cats posted here. I never thought I'd become a cat fancier, but I have, thanks to my wife. Maybe we need a cat thread to counter-balance the Politics thread.

I agree. Maybe you can start one!

[Tom Servo]

The maid is neglecting her duties! There is dust under the strings of that Les Paul! :smh:

Neat cats posted here. I never thought I'd become a cat fancier, but I have, thanks to my wife. Maybe we need a cat thread to counter-balance the Politics thread.

Yeah, I'm *really* bad about cleaning up all the pick dust under the strings when I restring the guitar. Even when I do remember, the Les Paul breaks strings so less often than my old Bullet Squire that even forgetting one time turns it into a mess.

At least it's a sign it's being used a lot.

[Tom Servo]

Here's a technique to help people calm the foque down:
B(reath)
R(hythmically)
E(venly)
A(t)
T(he)
H(eart)

Basically to maintain steady and smooth breathing while focusing at your heart.

This is not really yoga or based on religious BS, but on science. If you want to understand more about this technique: http://youtu.be/fRItG9G1rb4

No offense, Billi, but I totally expected the video to be Gary Busey based on the acronym.

[Yw-slayer]

I prefer:

Smile
Touch
One (breath etc.)
Presence

[21Kid]

How long you going to keep reading his posts, Mo? ;)




I'd hate to say I told you so, but... :finger:

[novicius]

Billi's problem is that where he lands on the Autism spectrum pushes his tone of "contrarian for the lolz" into "contrarian until alienation".

If people do not enjoy chatting with him and just block him because he cannot get into the rhythm of contribution and give-and-take and live-and-let-live, then he will naturally get blocked and alienated by everyone (not just here but online in general). Shit, this goes for me as well (or anyone), it's not unique to Billi.

Now if being blocked by active users equates, as it seems to be, to a personal success for him then we're all on the right track and everybody gets what they want. :up: But if Billi wants to count people here as friends then he does need to tone down his constant combative tone. Simple as that. #shrug

[neanderthal]

How long you going to keep reading his posts, Mo? ;)




I'd hate to say I told you so, but... :finger:

Aye caramba...

I try to never block people, in order to learn and ingest as much dissenting opinion and fact so that I can educate my own opinion, alter it as necessary, but this fool, with the talking out of both sides of his mouth and then not coming to the natural conclusion of his own diatribe!!!!!

[neanderthal]

Hey, lots of folks were very happy with Reagan. In modern US history, he was the only president who managed the keep the White House occupied by the same party.

Further, I was not promoting trumps Econ policy nor was I saying Hillary's Econ policy is evil. I was saying the establishment fucking middle class Americans and Arabs in the Middle East as evil. O and W are practically the same president from that perspective...

Anyway, are you sure you want to discuss politics with me? If you know you're right and I'm evil then let's just conclude our discussion as that. I don't want you to suffer a heart attack because of me.

I didn't say you are evil.
You posted the question about not knowing about who was more evil between the Republicans and Democrats.

I posted a response that said, lets overlook the bigotry and go to the heart of his (and their) economic policy, trickle down economic theory, something pretty much ALL Republican politicians adhere to. This is something that has demonstrably worsened the lives of the middle class and the little people, while also increasing the wealth of the upper class. Not something that has increased the wealth of the upper class while not doing much for the middle class and lower economic strata, as in Obama's term.


Mind you, I posited my response in light of your belly aching about how the parties screw us over, both of them. Here is a clear case of one of them ACTIVELY trying to screw us over, besides all the bigotry marginalised people will continue to experience, and yet you can't seem to decide which one is worse?

get. the. fuck. out. of. here!

[neanderthal]

And BTW, Reagan's popularity less to do with Bush I's ascension to POTUS as much Dukakis mis steps and own lack of popularity.

[Crazed_Insanity]

DNC makes the same mistakes over and over again... Unless ambitious and charismatic Bill and Barack come along, all DNC had are boring party favorites or perhaps republicans were doing so well back then no one in the right minds dared challenging Bush I.

Regardless what's proven about trickled down economics and what so good about DNCs economics, reality is that the gap between rich and poor has widened and people are not happy about it. Even black lives continued to matter little with a black president. It'd really be nice if DNC can have full control one day so you will realize that our problems are bigger than the worst congress ever and the racists in this country.

Hillary chose the embrace the establishment. Had she picked sanders or Warren for vp, she would've gotten my vote. She chose to ignore me so I chose to ignore her. I also had to ignore trump.

Anyway, I think you should get outta here.... At least out of this thread.

However, if you can really stand the heat, I welcome you to remain in my kitchen.

[drew]

Aye caramba...

I try to never block people, in order to learn and ingest as much dissenting opinion and fact so that I can educate my own opinion, alter it as necessary, but this fool, with the talking out of both sides of his mouth and then not coming to the natural conclusion of his own diatribe!!!!!


You are far more strong-willed than I, good sir.

It takes A LOT for me to get to the point of saying fuck it, and adding someone to the list. Once I do, anything I see after that in quotes, makes me want to simultaneously power vomit (from both mouth and ass) and punch myself in the face. I guess I'm trying to say, when I see quotes from the few on my list, it's immediately apparent it was a justified action.

I tip my hat to you :)

[Crazed_Insanity]

I prefer:

Smile
Touch
One (breath etc.)
Presence

Is your thing based on science or BS?

[speedpimp]

Hershey doing what he does best, sleeping and checking out boxes.
2045204620472048

[drew]

Sounds like my life. Except I'm just checking out the same box repeatedly.

[speedpimp]

Ain't nothing wrong with that.

[Yw-slayer]

Is your thing based on science or BS?

Don't know. Probably both.

[Godson]

Sounds like my life. Except I'm just checking out the same box repeatedly.

There you go being coy and using euphemisms again.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I could not for the life of me figure out how to post pictures from my phone!!!

Anyway, just have to do it from my PC using wife's facebook photos:

Here are our 3 sweeties:
2052
The most conservative one on the right is Mintie and the one in the middle is Mika and the most liberal one on the left is Mitzie!

Mintie is our older cat and suffering from chronic diarrhea lately so we didn't dare dressing her up during Halloween this year fearing that we might stress her out too much..., but the younger cats were not off the hook. Here's Mika the F-1 driver:
2053
He doesn't look very happy at the driver's press conference... BTW, he's not from Finland, we adopted him from Santa Monica!

Here's his team mate Mitzie:
2054

Actually we think Mika probably will make a better pirate than a race car driver. What do you guys think?
2055

[drew]

Ty, I'm perfectly happy opening the same Christmas present all the time :)

[Rare White Ape]

Are you shitting me?

After all you've said about the system and the establishment you're then going to say that?

Never mind the homophobia, misogyny, racism, xenophobia, etc. lets skip all that and go straight to his economic policy which is trickle down theory demonstrably proven to work in the exact. opposite. way. it is advertised in the few places it has been implemented. Woe to the middle class, jobs, social services, etc and the rich get richer in the meanwhile.

And you can't decide who is less evil... Gerrarahere!

Well, Hillary Clinton is quite possibly a horrible cunt and a warmonger that is not averse to dropping bombs and creating large scale humanitarian crises, so he might be on to something. She's one of the the most right-wing of any left wing politicians I've seen in my limited experience. Sometimes I think it's no wonder the US citizenry thought Trump was the lesser of two evils, if you frame it the way I just did.

But Trump is such an unknown wildcard compared to Clinton. With her, you'd be pretty much guaranteed a nice comfortable, predictable stewardship with more of the same, or at least a continuation of what has been happening overseas since Bush I. Trump is going to be a hard one to pick. The establishment won't get any sort of a shake-up, as it is large enough to absorb any shock waves he will try to put out, so the turmoil will be directed downwards and out of harm's way. Remember the GFC? The ones who will cop it will be those who are already marginalised; the poor, the disadvantaged, anyone with a different lifestyle. The ones who need the most help. Those are the ones who Trump voters failed to consider when they chose to support him.

[neanderthal]

Well, Hillary Clinton is quite possibly a horrible cunt and a warmonger that is not averse to dropping bombs and creating large scale humanitarian crises, so he might be on to something. She's one of the the most right-wing of any left wing politicians I've seen in my limited experience. Sometimes I think it's no wonder the US citizenry thought Trump was the lesser of two evils, if you frame it the way I just did.

But Trump is such an unknown wildcard compared to Clinton. With her, you'd be pretty much guaranteed a nice comfortable, predictable stewardship with more of the same, or at least a continuation of what has been happening overseas since Bush I. Trump is going to be a hard one to pick. The establishment won't get any sort of a shake-up, as it is large enough to absorb any shock waves he will try to put out, so the turmoil will be directed downwards and out of harm's way. Remember the GFC? The ones who will cop it will be those who are already marginalised; the poor, the disadvantaged, anyone with a different lifestyle. The ones who need the most help. Those are the ones who Trump voters failed to consider when they chose to support him.

Unknowns bolded, while Trump IS quite the cunt (http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/cover_story/2016/07/donald_trump_is_unfit_to_be_president_here_are_141 _reasons_why.html) and reckless, with poor impulse control (he can't even temper himself to control what he tweets!) (https://www.ft.com/content/1cf9a2fe-8738-11e6-a75a-0c4dce033ade) He's open to dropping nuclear bombs (https://thinkprogress.org/9-terrifying-things-donald-trump-has-publicly-said-about-nuclear-weapons-99f6290bc32a#.90qxgkv2x) and even letting more countries have access to nuclear weapons.

The entire thesis of your second paragraph is why Billi claiming they are both equally evil is complete hogwash. The wealthy would have continued to get wealthier under a Clinton presidency, likely without trying to screw the middle class and poor. Same cant really be said for Trump, as his economic platform basically entails actively screwing over the poor and middle class to the benefit of the wealthy.


And it's exactly what I was saying.

Billi talks about us getting screwed by both parties then ignores the party that is trying to intentionally screw us to say they are equally screwing us.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Yeah sure, it's known only conservatives allowed the rich to get richer while hurting the poor but liberals will only allow the rich to get richer without hurting anybody! Liberals only have politically correct honest to God good intentions! No way in hell could they be evil! Ok! Got it! I'm wrong okay?

Here is something interesting about your or other liberals' need to call out racists:

http://www.vox.com/identities/2016/11/15/13595508/racism-trump-research-study

It's counter-productive. Quite possibly the reason why trump got that many votes!

[SkylineObsession]

Politics: Topic #2...

[Crazed_Insanity]

We need more cats please!

[neanderthal]

Yeah sure, it's known only conservatives allowed the rich to get richer while hurting the poor but liberals will only allow the rich to get richer without hurting anybody! Liberals only have politically correct honest to God good intentions! No way in hell could they be evil! Ok! Got it! I'm wrong okay?

Here is something interesting about your or other liberals' need to call out racists:

http://www.vox.com/identities/2016/11/15/13595508/racism-trump-research-study

It's counter-productive. Quite possibly the reason why trump got that many votes!

Turning the other cheek works every time, right? Guaranteed?

As a minority, no thanks. As an oppressed minority, fuck that. I'll call a spade a spade and i'll call someone who supports a racist a racist.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Even when it is not only biblically but also scientifically proven to cause the exact opposite of what you want?

Stupid Christians have proven that being judgemental doesn't work, you really want to follow them down the same wrong path?

Why?

Just to get even? And then leave this world more racist and hateful for our kids?

I'm no majority, but excuse me if I don't want to be on the same boat as yours.

Trust me, God is not Caucasian.

[Rare White Ape]

Here is something interesting about your or other liberals' need to call out racists:

http://www.vox.com/identities/2016/11/15/13595508/racism-trump-research-study

Are you saying we should be having this style of discussion with you?

We've been having it with you for years. Something tells me it hasn't really worked in your case.

[Drachen596]

I'll have to note that this is Political Thread #2 so I don't click on it again.

[SkylineObsession]

Yeah same.

Poor kitty cats. :(

[Godson]

Yeah same.

Poor kitty cats. :(

We have a thread for this already.

http://gtxforums.net/showthread.php?39-Where-the-wimmin-at-(NSFW)

[Crazed_Insanity]

Are you saying we should be having this style of discussion with you?

We've been having it with you for years. Something tells me it hasn't really worked in your case.

So you think I'm really racist and would gladly vote for Trump? I'm also strongly opposed to gay marriage and would vote to ban it if I have a chance?

What is that 'something' based on? What else has it been telling you?

[Crazed_Insanity]

I'll have to note that this is Political Thread #2 so I don't click on it again.
If you enjoy a liberal political thread and can't stand other view points, that'd be for you.

This thread is not just limited to politics and not just about cats or billis, but about how capable are we able to have a Good Time together that's all.

[21Kid]

maybe we should just let this thread die and return to the regular politics thread... I don't see how this one is any different.

[speedpimp]

http://cdn.wallpapersafari.com/62/75/8dLyEG.jpg

[speedpimp]

http://www.drfry.biz/images/thanksgiving.jpg

[Crazed_Insanity]

Yes, maybe we should return to the common polarizing ways... and think people who don't share your ideologies as fuckable deplorable hateful bigots and often times pretend that they don't even exist and don't matter. Threaten to protest and block them every step of the way and perhaps threatening to move out of the country... (This is done by folks on both sides, not just a criticism of the left!)

Or perhaps we can recognize that this approach doesn't really work that maybe there are other ways to go about it. If GranTurismo could do it, surely there are other things that can achieve similar things.

Speedpimpie, nice pussies! Made me want to reach out and grab one! ;)

[Cam]

I enjoyed the GT parties.

I bought the network adaptor for the PS2 before Timesplitters 2 and GT4 came out. Both games were advertised to have online multiplayer during development, which is why I bought the network adaptor. Alas, the feature was yanked at the last moment before the games' releases. :( I owned GT4 for about a month before I sold my consoles altogether and moved to California in 2005. GT2 was the peak of the series, in my opinion.

I enjoy our little corner of the internet. It's like a bar, where the same folks have been coming in every day after work or whatever for 15+ years. :)

[Kchrpm]

You continue to miss the point. And it doesn't surprise me. In fact, you are doing what you are accusing everyone else of doing! We don't agree with you, and therefore we must be calling everyone a hateful bigot just because of it. There's no sense of nuance, no understanding of what we're actually saying, we just aren't saying "Yeah, you're right!" and therefore we're being horrible to everyone for no reason.

But again, you created a thread that was supposed to not be about politics, and then immediately and continuously made it about politics.

What do you want this thread to be about? How we can all be friends with GTXFers regardless of what they're like when talking about anything other than Gran Turismo? Guess what, we barely talk about Gran Turismo anymore. The thing that all brought us together is not bringing us together anymore. The only thing keeping us together (besides momentum) is personalities and intellects. If a discussion about politics, finances, cars, friends, family, whatever, shows us that someone has a personality or intellect that we do not want to actively engage with anymore, why should we? Because we liked the same video game almost 20 years ago?

So what is that you actually want? Do you want us to be friends despite having no reason to be other than momentum? Do you want people here to express their opinions freely? Or do you want people here to all pretend that something going on in the world isn't important to them and not bother posting anything that might be considered mean or controversial?

This isn't about "oh that person is a conservative so they must be a hateful bigot," it's that many people have decided that racism, bigotry, and misogyny is less important to them than the promise of lower taxes, less restrictions, and blowing up the system in general. We have opinions about that, some very strong, and we came here to share them.

If you really don't like it, you're more than welcome to do what many other GTXFers have done and not come back, to that thread specifically or this forum completely. We all have that right. Each of us would be missed in some way, but the community would live on in a new form, just as it always has. Don't think that you alone can come in here and say "aw shucks guys, let's all be friends," especially when you are personally guilty of saying plenty of incendiary bullshit and ignoring facts and disrespecting the opinions and experiences of your peers in the process. Stop thinking you're some kind of martyr for passionately unsubstantiated statements with strawman arguments and questionable sources, then being offended when you're called out on it. Now that LHutton is gone(?) you're the biggest shit stirrer on the site, and you're the only one complaining about how much shit is being stirred.

This isn't the Politics #2 thread or the kittens thread or the State of Gran Turismo thread, it's the Billi Narcissism thread. Get over yourself. That statement has nothing to do with who you voted for or why, what books you read, what religion you believe in, or anything else. Just get over yourself. We don't have to be your friend. You don't have to be our friend. You don't have to keep coming here. You don't have to keep coming to the Pit Stop. You don't have to keep coming into Politics threads. If you don't like the way we're treating you or others, go find someplace where you do like it. We liked the same video game, whoopty fucking do, that doesn't mean we have to be close friends for the rest of our lives.

[drew]

[hugs Keith]

[FaultyMario]

Hug? I was thinking a blowjob would be more appropriate.

[speedpimp]

Out of the question unless drew can unhinge his jaw.

[21Kid]

I thought it was implied that hug = grab-ass

[Crazed_Insanity]

You continue to miss the point. And it doesn't surprise me.
You continue to look down on me as if I am the inferior one...and you call me a narcissist? You're just trying to cure me I hope?


In fact, you are doing what you are accusing everyone else of doing! We don't agree with you, and therefore we must be calling everyone a hateful bigot just because of it. There's no sense of nuance, no understanding of what we're actually saying, we just aren't saying "Yeah, you're right!" and therefore we're being horrible to everyone for no reason.
Have I ever called any of you guys deplorables or go to hell whenever you guys disagreed with me?
Also, please tell me what do you guys really think of Trump supporters?


But again, you created a thread that was supposed to not be about politics, and then immediately and continuously made it about politics.
As if I know I have complete control of which way a thread can turn. I'm really not that narcissistic you know.


What do you want this thread to be about? How we can all be friends with GTXFers regardless of what they're like when talking about anything other than Gran Turismo? Guess what, we barely talk about Gran Turismo anymore. The thing that all brought us together is not bringing us together anymore. The only thing keeping us together (besides momentum) is personalities and intellects. If a discussion about politics, finances, cars, friends, family, whatever, shows us that someone has a personality or intellect that we do not want to actively engage with anymore, why should we? Because we liked the same video game almost 20 years ago?
Besides being BFF, the other alternative is simply "fuck you asshole"? If asking people to love one another is too much to ask, is it okay to just be friendly with one another and agree to disagree sometimes? I didn't even vote for Trump, and Trump didn't even win California and yet some of the hardcore liberals here could still hate me for voting 3rd party. WTF?!?!?!? Look, I don't really mind being hated on a personal level, but our hatred is up at a national level maybe even at a global level... that's why we have all sorts of fucking extemists out there ready to fuck with somebody that they don't agree with. My narcissism is making me want to change that... at least starting in this forum.


So what is that you actually want? Do you want us to be friends despite having no reason to be other than momentum? Do you want people here to express their opinions freely? Or do you want people here to all pretend that something going on in the world isn't important to them and not bother posting anything that might be considered mean or controversial?
I just think people need to try to be less hateful. I'm not trying to force personal friendships here, but there has to be a way for some sort of collective peace rather than this out of control polarization. I also do definitely want people to be able to freely express their opinions, but I don't think it's possible here now anymore. You can see all the conservatives here either left or just hush up to avoid unnecessary fights. Rather than really talk about it, they express their pent up emotions by casting votes... and in the end, we now have Trump for president.


This isn't about "oh that person is a conservative so they must be a hateful bigot," it's that many people have decided that racism, bigotry, and misogyny is less important to them than the promise of lower taxes, less restrictions, and blowing up the system in general. We have opinions about that, some very strong, and we came here to share them.
I have no problems with sharing, just problems with some people's righteous indignation when other people share their opinions. This is a general problem, not specific at any particular side... both sides do the same thing... getting all mad about the other side and result is inability to truly hear what the other side is really saying.

Racism and whatever other issues CAN be reversed according to researchers, but research has shown that by angrily calling other racists or being judgemental is the least effective way to do it.


If you really don't like it, you're more than welcome to do what many other GTXFers have done and not come back, to that thread specifically or this forum completely. We all have that right. Each of us would be missed in some way, but the community would live on in a new form, just as it always has. Don't think that you alone can come in here and say "aw shucks guys, let's all be friends," especially when you are personally guilty of saying plenty of incendiary bullshit and ignoring facts and disrespecting the opinions and experiences of your peers in the process. Stop thinking you're some kind of martyr for passionately unsubstantiated statements with strawman arguments and questionable sources, then being offended when you're called out on it. Now that LHutton is gone(?) you're the biggest shit stirrer on the site, and you're the only one complaining about how much shit is being stirred.
I don't like to give up. I also do like to stir shit up rather than living in a status quo. Maybe some day I will actually leave this country/board when Trump takes over this board, but not now. Sorry. :p If you guys really wish to keep me or other narcissists out, then build a wall around your forum so posters like me can't join you guys without invitation.


This isn't the Politics #2 thread or the kittens thread or the State of Gran Turismo thread, it's the Billi Narcissism thread. Get over yourself. That statement has nothing to do with who you voted for or why, what books you read, what religion you believe in, or anything else. Just get over yourself. We don't have to be your friend. You don't have to be our friend. You don't have to keep coming here. You don't have to keep coming to the Pit Stop. You don't have to keep coming into Politics threads. If you don't like the way we're treating you or others, go find someplace where you do like it. We liked the same video game, whoopty fucking do, that doesn't mean we have to be close friends for the rest of our lives.
Never said this is politics #2. Never said this must be about kittens. Never said this is really about going back to play GT. Never said this thread is about me.

Post election, it's clear that each side firmly believes that the other side is full of annoying Billis. I know you're sick and tired of Billi too... you may want him to leave... or you may want to leave because of him. I'm not asking to be everybody's BFF, all I'm asking is for folks to calm the foque down and try to be friendly with fellow human beings who might not agree with everything you believe in. I also know it's too much to ask, but I'm fucking asking you mutherfoquers anyway! We are more alike than we are different.

[drew]

BJ is a given. That's how I hug, low

[Kchrpm]

As if I know I have complete control of which way a thread can turn. I'm really not that narcissistic you know.

From the original post in this thread

Anyway, I don't really wish to discuss any specific politics because that can only further highlight our differences...
----------------------
Also, American people have already partially realized Dr. King's dream and elected a president for 8 years based solely on the content of his character rather than his skin color. I honestly don't believe majority of Americans are capable of all of a sudden going back to become more racist again... The popular votes proves this point! Plus, I'm sure Trump votes are not made up mostly by the members of the Nazi party or the KKK.

I can't say everything will be okay under the Trump Admin, but reality is that everything was not okay under the Obama Admin too. Real world has its problems. No single party can solve all of its problems, but we're all trying our best. Regardless of who's in charge, I do believe things will get better in general because of humanity's problem solving skills, just like stock markets will only rise over time.

You didn't want to make it about politics, yet you almost immediately made it about politics. And then, even in your reply to me just now:

Also, please tell me what do you guys really think of Trump supporters?
Ignoring the fact that multiple people have told you multiple times (they aren't necessarily racist/bigots/etc, but they at least care more about their finances/religion than the lives and rights of women and minorities), you yet again want to swing this non-political thread back to a discussion of politics!


Have I ever called any of you guys deplorables or go to hell whenever you guys disagreed with me?
No, you only said that we're all too liberal and that we label everyone that didn't vote for Clinton as a horrible bigot, despite multiple people saying that wasn't the case multiple times. You also said we can't stand other viewpoints, when actually we can't stand people that a have a belief and then steadfastly defend it with little to no supporting evidence and even mounting evidence against it.

Every side of every argument is full of annoying Billis. You were annoying when you talked about the System. You were annoying when you talked about religion. There are plenty of people like you on every side. I'm sure I've been accused (and guilty) of being like you on a topic or in a discussion before. We can definitely get along.

But you CANNOT be an admitted shit stirrer that keeps bringing up politics and then try to tell people that we shouldn't get mad at each other about politics. Have an opinion, bring supporting facts, listening to the supporting facts of others, and be willing to change your opinion or accept the opinions of others as reasonable and justified. Don't use a source with questionable respect and reliability to the people you're talking to (including using a religious text to justify your position to an atheist). Respond to questions with answers, not just more questions. Don't stir shit just to stir shit, and then get offended when you're covered in shit.

[Jason]

Don't forget the balls.

[speedpimp]

http://www.felinest.com/images/creepy-cat-10.jpg

[Crazed_Insanity]

K, like I said, if I got shit on me because of my own doing, too bad. Can't complain about that.

Right now I'm complaining about shit that's on the entire nation.

You honestly don't believe there's any shit issues on a national level? Everyone's so very level headed about the past election? We all able to agree to disagree and work together for a common goal?

Or you still believe my point is just all about me personally? Everybody please pay attention to me because I need attention?

This thread is NOT about me, okay?

And if you think we don't have a national or perhaps a global issue with polarization, then there's really nothing much for you to talk about I guess. Everything's cool.

[21Kid]

http://i3.asn.im/Crazy-cat-_taf3.jpg

[SkylineObsession]

https://41.media.tumblr.com/47770fa662bea692fc4a7daed47d79a8/tumblr_inline_nzssxlr16U1shi48e_540.png
http://akns-images.eonline.com/eol_images/Entire_Site/201467/rs_560x415-140707115516-560.Purrmanently-Sad-Cat-kitten.ls.7814.jpg
http://sd.keepcalm-o-matic.co.uk/i/sad-cat-is-very-sad.png
http://i.imgur.com/kngr7xS.png
http://i.imgur.com/HMwZy2a.jpg
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/db/50/b2/db50b232a89bb375ea4a61fcaa0df99c.jpg
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-oFXB7KR5EfY/TxAW5jR8uiI/AAAAAAAAUD4/gDmiuMXYu4Q/s1600/affri.gif

[speedpimp]

https://whyevolutionistrue.files.wordpress.com/2010/05/shaved-cat-2.jpg
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/c4/b6/20/c4b620da2e87a5a280813d625c85dc56.jpg

[SkylineObsession]

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/21/bb/06/21bb06635a73c0654915547e25d89d59.jpg
https://thejaguarandallies.files.wordpress.com/2015/09/happy-djamila-tambako.jpg
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/04/dc/19/04dc19dc33cc07b605eba587c28682fc.jpg

I wish our cat was this big!
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-5zgzJHQht94/VB4SWAorAxI/AAAAAAAAJig/WYo_WX2KwPU/s1600/big-cat.gif

[speedpimp]

My that is quite the large pussy you have there mam.

[Crazed_Insanity]

That pussy should be able to grab Trump right back!

[Yw-slayer]

DOGS ROOL

CATS DROOL

[Rare White Ape]

Billi, Keith hates you because he's black.

Oh, wait. That was wrong.

Keith hates you because he's black and you voted for a president that will more than likely perpetuate a society that marginalises him and his family, and will make things unnecessarily hard for him. He already has a hard enough time at a routine traffic stop, let alone just being careful to not walk into the wrong coffee shop. You've hindered him in your effort to make things better for yourself, when a vote the other way would have possibly been just as good for yourself but a whole shit load better for him.

Yeah. That's it. I think that's the biggest point that you're not getting.

Keith I hope I'm not putting too many words in your mouth with that one.

[neanderthal]

^That about hits on the head.

Racism don't hit you too hard if you don't care about it, as clearly some people didn't care much for it, but for some of us it is real fucking thing and it affects us every. single. fucking. day. Like the lady who said she was glad the baboons were leaving the White House just yesterday at my work. YESTERDAY!

So excuse me for thinking every. single. person. who voted for Trump is racist, and every person who voted for Stein or Johnson an accomplice. You aren't the one being called a fucking baboon. So just fuck off with your misplaced agenda. You're free to think that the Democrats are just as bad as the Republicans, and we're free to think you're the type of person who colluded with them to elect a racist to the White House.

www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-pol-white-nationalists-thinktank-20161119-story,amp.html

This is real. And this gets to affect me.

[KillerB]

Are you really calling people who voted for Johnson or Stein, in a state like California, which was never in any danger of going for Trump, accomplices?

[neanderthal]

It's a bit of a stretch, but yes I am.

To ME the greater danger is the open hostility I see, sense and feel, and that gets reported to me by my coworkers as things they've heard, or seen. These are real things.

So yes, those who voted to assuage their conscience rather than against an outright racist, sexist/ misogynist, xenophobe are labelled as such in my mind. And ive told two of my co workers to their face exactly that. One was horrified, the other was non plussed talmbout "if they hadn't nominated such an awful candidate for the Democratic nominee..."

I cut him off with "that's easy to say. You're a white male. You're not affected by what happened."

[KillerB]

Well, you're certainly entitled to your opinion. As a white male, I certainly cannot claim to experience what you experience.

That said, you won't win a single heart and/or mind calling people accomplices... and for any chance to occur in this country, we are going to have to have dialog, not accusations or finger-pointing.

One lesson the left need to take from this election is that you can't win people to your side by ignoring their concerns and assigning them to the "basket of deplorables."

I'm a firm believer that the problems our country face right now stem from a lack of empathy.

It's a lack of empathy that causes a poor, straight, white male to not understand why his support for Trump is interpreted as a vote for homophobia/racism/sexism by someone who is gay/racial minority/female.

It's also a lack of empathy that causes someone in one of those groups to not realize that one person's #1 issue is not someone else's #1 issue. For many poor, straight, white males, their continuing descent into poverty is a far bigger issue TO THEM than hate directed toward someone other than themselves.

There are millions of people in this country who voted for Obama in 2008 and 2012, yet voted for Trump in 2016. Progressives need to have some true curiosity about why that happened and figure out how to fix it in 2018 and 2020.

[Crazed_Insanity]

RWA, I voted for Stein. Even if I voted for Trump or Hillary, there's really no need for anybody to hate me.

'Something' tells me he's hating me because of something else, I must've accidentally pushed some other button of his. I can understand Neanderthal hating me for voting Stein, but not Kchrpm.

[Rare White Ape]

I can't speak for any American experience, but for sure in Australia if an economic bottom-feeder votes for the left, they've been decently swindled, but if they vote right they've been utterly, utterly swindled. I'm pretty sure that our political allegiances line up between our countries very well.

Our Labor party (roughly equivalent to your Denocrats) is too far right for my liking, so my vote goes to the Greens, which is seen as an alternative for the Labor party with a constantly expanding portfolio (yet is completely ignored in the whole "the two-party system sucks" discussion).

It's like my favourite political saying; there are two kinds of Republican voters. Rich people, and suckers. Check your bank account to see which one you are.

If you're poor or near the poverty line, don't vote bloody Republican. They're not into anyone's interests other than those of the rich. Taking away benefits such as universal healthcare is proof of this, and they package it under the guise of freedom or liberty, which is utter fucking bullshit, yet proud patriotic Americans (see a theme here?) lap it up. Here the government wants to dismantle Medicare, and in the U.K. the Tories want to fuck with the NHS. Whyyyyyyy? Removing basic services just causes people to fall by the wayside, which means these poor souls end up being no good to anyone. We're all in this together, so why not help the worst-off and help propel everyone else in the process?

See, I'm such a lefty <3

Another common theme around the world is removing or lowering the minimum wage. This is a sure fire fast track to shitsville if you're a dumb cunt economic manager. Or what about weakening CO2 targets, and defunding science, and letting the public school system deteriorate while at the same time giving massive grants to private schools, tax cuts for the rich, the myth of trickle-down economics, ramming through new free trade agreements, selling public assets, defunding the arts… Holy shit I could continue. If you want to boost the economy, boost the bottom end and see what happens.

This is without even touching on social issues like immigration, welfare, abortion, race, equality.

It's the same shit every day all around the world right now. Tune into the French national elections this month and see what those loveable baguette bakers are cooking up for themselves.

[Rare White Ape]

RWA, I voted for Stein. Even if I voted for Trump or Hillary, there's really no need for anybody to hate me.

'Something' tells me he's hating me because of something else, I must've accidentally pushed some other button of his. I can understand Neanderthal hating me for voting Stein, but not Kchrpm.

Jill Stein?

The anti-vax fruit loop?

My God.

[Crazed_Insanity]

My God, you are willing to believe rumors over a doctor with a Harvard medical degree?

http://www.snopes.com/is-green-party-candidate-jill-stein-anti-vaccine/

Are you sure you are a leftist liberal? You sound like a dumbass conservative to me! You don't call yourself a white ape for nothing, heh? :p

[Rare White Ape]

Hey, I'm happy to be corrected. It was widely reported that she was anti-vax a few months ago, I didn't know any different. So... thanks.

Now, this is a thread about you, so lets address the things we're trying to highlight, shall we?

[Yw-slayer]

Yes, less politics. More Billi.

[Kchrpm]

I don't hate Billi. I'm frustrated and annoyed by Billi, but I don't hate him.

Do we have a national problem with polarization? Yes. Is this thread about that? I thought it was about the GTXF. As usual, when Billi's arguments gets to weak he just pivots and makes the discussion about something else, then claims that's what it was about all along.

"Hey guys, we're too polarized here on the GTXF, why can't we all be friends?"
"Well, it doesn't help that you're always just stirring shit and refusing to accept or present facts."
"Yes I am a shit stirrer, but are you saying the whole nation isn't polarized?"

Classic.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I thought it was about the GTXF.

You thought correctly right there.

I'm not just trying to discuss problems between us, but more of a global problem. I said our own boards' poll was able to predict a Bush win then, do you really think it can still predict a Trump win?

I know you don't hate me, but if I annoy you that much, perhaps you can take a break from me like some others do... When you feel you're cured of your dryness problem, then perhaps we can try to have sex again... ;)

[Crazed_Insanity]

Hey, I'm happy to be corrected. It was widely reported that she was anti-vax a few months ago, I didn't know any different. So... thanks.

Now, this is a thread about you, so lets address the things we're trying to highlight, shall we?

I'm still waiting for you to explain to me what is that 'something' and why do you believe what it told you. Why do you believe it's lies about Billi still is a racist and hates gays and voted for Trump?

(Not that all Trump supporters are racists and anti-gay of course...)

[Tom Servo]

When you feel you're cured of your dryness problem, then perhaps we can try to have sex again... ;)

Taking a break from posting because I literally cannot stop vomiting.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Swervo, I think you and Kchrpm are probably the few of the more level headed liberals on this board. I know I most likely annoyed you just as much, but you must be using better kind of lubrication than K in order to last this long with me... ;)

In all seriousness, I know we're not best of friends or lovers, but I do love you guys and it does kinda hurt or is a bit depressing to see our board reflecting what's going on on a national level. My apologies for being annoying to you guys at times, sometimes it may be intentional but a lot of times not. Our 'love' for one another is really the best kind of 'lubrication' we have when it comes to dealing with each other's quirkiness... of course some times some people may just had ENOUGH and wish to put me on ignore... I'm okay with that too. Totally understandable. I want to put myself on ignore at times...

What's so cool with love of this kind is that there's no need for any kind of reciprocity. I can still love BrianJ although he's dead. I can still love roofer although he's not really here anymore. I can still love Fud although he's put me on ignore... Most of all I love speedpimpie because I can have quicky sex with him without having to worry about any sort of lubrication! :D

[speedpimp]

Since cats aren't counteracting The System® it is time to bust out the ever lovable Amish Puff Ball Treat Begging Machine.
2063

[GreatScawt]

Well this got big quick ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

[IMOA]

Well, you're certainly entitled to your opinion. As a white male, I certainly cannot claim to experience what you experience.

That said, you won't win a single heart and/or mind calling people accomplices... and for any chance to occur in this country, we are going to have to have dialog, not accusations or finger-pointing.

One lesson the left need to take from this election is that you can't win people to your side by ignoring their concerns and assigning them to the "basket of deplorables."

I'm a firm believer that the problems our country face right now stem from a lack of empathy.

It's a lack of empathy that causes a poor, straight, white male to not understand why his support for Trump is interpreted as a vote for homophobia/racism/sexism by someone who is gay/racial minority/female.

It's also a lack of empathy that causes someone in one of those groups to not realize that one person's #1 issue is not someone else's #1 issue. For many poor, straight, white males, their continuing descent into poverty is a far bigger issue TO THEM than hate directed toward someone other than themselves.

There are millions of people in this country who voted for Obama in 2008 and 2012, yet voted for Trump in 2016. Progressives need to have some true curiosity about why that happened and figure out how to fix it in 2018 and 2020.

Talking of the State of Gran Turismo. It does warm my heart that KB and I used to disagree a lot but now he pretty much agrees with everything I think. progress, it's awesome :)

Oh, and I don't have facebook, I get the impression a lot of people would be much happier if they ditched it as well.

[neanderthal]

Well, you're certainly entitled to your opinion. As a white male, I certainly cannot claim to experience what you experience.

That said, you won't win a single heart and/or mind calling people accomplices... and for any chance to occur in this country, we are going to have to have dialog, not accusations or finger-pointing.

One lesson the left need to take from this election is that you can't win people to your side by ignoring their concerns and assigning them to the "basket of deplorables."

I'm a firm believer that the problems our country face right now stem from a lack of empathy.

It's a lack of empathy that causes a poor, straight, white male to not understand why his support for Trump is interpreted as a vote for homophobia/racism/sexism by someone who is gay/racial minority/female.

It's also a lack of empathy that causes someone in one of those groups to not realize that one person's #1 issue is not someone else's #1 issue. For many poor, straight, white males, their continuing descent into poverty is a far bigger issue TO THEM than hate directed toward someone other than themselves.

There are millions of people in this country who voted for Obama in 2008 and 2012, yet voted for Trump in 2016. Progressives need to have some true curiosity about why that happened and figure out how to fix it in 2018 and 2020.

And I don't disagree with you on that notion.

However, we the black community have always had to be the ones that were understanding, waiting, compromising, etc, so no; I don't have time for empathy and understanding any more. It's time our demands got met.

Especially not when the alt right/ white nationalists/ fucking racists are openly holding conventions in government buildings because they now feel empowered and enabled, and the media is covering it like it's a n assembly of lobbyists.

I don't have time for that. My girlfriend don't have time for that. If we have kids, my kids won't have time for that.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Neanderthal, if Trump fucks with black people, rest assured that most, include myself, will fight with you against him.

Liberal elitists are made up of white males too. Just look at the groups DNC establishment was cozy with... Wall Street, Silicon Valley, Hollywood... Yes, they are trying to be more diverse, but they are still mostly white males.

There are probably a lot of reasons why things are the way it is, but I can demand all I want to have more Asian representation in NBA or NFL, but it just won't happen over night.

Hating my vote for Stein is not going to help our sons/daughters one bit. Hating Trump supporters also won't help.

Have faith that in time, Dr. Kings dream will be fully realized. The way to get there is love not hate.

[neanderthal]

Black people been gettn fucked since the get and you talmbout we "might get fucked by a Trump Presidency!" Really?

Were you not paying attention when black people were getting slain by police, this year?

[Crazed_Insanity]

And we have a black president for 8 damn years!!!! Maybe this racism thing just can't be done away with quickly..., but at least your kid can see a black president in the history book, it'll probably take a while for my daughter to see an Asian female president!

Anyway, point is we are making progress, but for sure we still have a long way to go. Have faith and hope that love will choke out racism in time.

[Tom Servo]

That Chris Rock/Dave Chapelle sketch on SNL seems more and more spot on.

In other news - Roofer and I agreed on something today on Facebook, so I'm pretty sure the world is ending shortly.

[KillerB]

And I don't disagree with you on that notion.

However, we the black community have always had to be the ones that were understanding, waiting, compromising, etc, so no; I don't have time for empathy and understanding any more. It's time our demands got met.

Especially not when the alt right/ white nationalists/ fucking racists are openly holding conventions in government buildings because they now feel empowered and enabled, and the media is covering it like it's a n assembly of lobbyists.

I don't have time for that. My girlfriend don't have time for that. If we have kids, my kids won't have time for that.

If you want your demands met, you're going to need a slice of the white folks who voted for Trump this time around. Making demands without having empathy for some of the people you're making of is going to lead to you, frankly, not getting shit.

Unless you want to wait for the demographics of this country to flip - but then you said you and your girlfriend don't have time for that.

...and that's assuming the demographic flip produces the results the left is counting on. 15% of Muslims and nearly 1/3 of Hispanics who voted, voted for Trump.

[KillerB]

Talking of the State of Gran Turismo. It does warm my heart that KB and I used to disagree a lot but now he pretty much agrees with everything I think. progress, it's awesome :)

Oh, and I don't have facebook, I get the impression a lot of people would be much happier if they ditched it as well.

Sensible folks moderate as they get older. With age comes experience and occasionally wisdom. :) Plus, my life over the last ten years has shown me a much wider world than I was exposed to where I was from.

Of course, some of my shift to the left is because I can afford it. If I was back in my circumstances at the beginning of 2006, making one-fifth what I make now and with no prospects of doing better back in Pennsyltucky, I'd probably have been one of the disaffected working class (like most of my old friends and family back home) voting for Trump.

[IMOA]

Sensible folks moderate as they get older. With age comes experience and occasionally wisdom. :) Plus, my life over the last ten years has shown me a much wider world than I was exposed to where I was from.

Of course, some of my shift to the left is because I can afford it. If I was back in my circumstances at the beginning of 2006, making one-fifth what I make now and with no prospects of doing better back in Pennsyltucky, I'd probably have been one of the disaffected working class (like most of my old friends and family back home) voting for Trump.

I don't think you've shifted left, I think you've just replaced some of your ideological positions with more pragmatic ones. And also the whole left/right thing is quite inadequate for describing politics these days but thats for a different thread.

[Kchrpm]

If you want your demands met, you're going to need a slice of the white folks who voted for Trump this time around.

Not really. As usual, the largest segment of the population was the group that didn't vote for anyone. Convincing those people that they need to care is also a viable option.

[mk]

Is it possible that for those the situation just doesn't matter that much?

[Kchrpm]

Yes. Hence attempts to impart to them how important the situation is to others, and hope that they feel some empathy for your cause and decide to act on it.

[mk]

Need to care includes a vision of the future.

What if it happes so that even Trump can't make a difference?
Better for GOP and the likes, I guess.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Talking of the State of Gran Turismo. It does warm my heart that KB and I used to disagree a lot but now he pretty much agrees with everything I think. progress, it's awesome :)

Oh, and I don't have facebook, I get the impression a lot of people would be much happier if they ditched it as well.

Like! :up:

[Crazed_Insanity]

Roofer and I agreed on something today on Facebook, so I'm pretty sure the world is ending shortly.

:up: too!

(Except for the end of the world prophesy..., but I guess if Jesus is returning, I should also like that! ;) )

[neanderthal]

Yes. Hence attempts to impart to them how important the situation is to others, and hope that they feel some empathy for your cause and decide to act on it.

This.

The impulse to tell marginalised people they are not in danger should really be an opportunity to to question why one doesn't want to believe them.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Yes. Hence attempts to impart to them how important the situation is to others, and hope that they feel some empathy for your cause and decide to act on it.
Ideally yes, just as ideally we should love one another...

However, appealing to voters self interests is also important. Of course not saying the racist part, but the financially hurt part. Insisting on status quo is only okay if most Americans are doing well. Hope DNC learns from it's mistake. Continue to play lesser of 2 evil also won't inspire more to vote!

[neanderthal]

The greater of two evils seemingly doesn't affect you, hence the nonchalance.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Yeah, homie don't play that. I only vote for somebody I really want.

[Dicknose]

The impulse to tell marginalised people they are not in danger should really be an opportunity to to question why one doesn't want to believe them.
Because they don't understand your situation. Countering with you don't need empathy, but they do, is not going to work.
You need empathy to understand why they might vote another way, what their concerns are, why they put their issues above yours.

You are saying "this is real, this is important, my life depends on it"
And you don't think they feel the same way, but on a different issue (like keeping a job)

You need empathy so you can get others on board. It will allow people to realize that we should work towards multiple goals, not just a single goal at the expense of others issues.
Even if it's just being able to counter with "does fixing racism and making black people safer stop us from helping you and your issues?"

[KillerB]

I don't think you've shifted left, I think you've just replaced some of your ideological positions with more pragmatic ones. And also the whole left/right thing is quite inadequate for describing politics these days but thats for a different thread.

Good point - while I'm still registered Libertarian, I really consider myself a pragmatist at this point. I want government to expand their role in areas where government can best do the work (infrastructure, health insurance, social safety net, common-sense regulation), but I also want to hold government accountable to do the job right.

And yeah, at least two, and probably three or more, dimensions are necessary to accurately capture someone's political views with any granularity.

[Kchrpm]

Even if it's just being able to counter with "does fixing racism and making black people safer stop us from helping you and your issues?"
Brings me back to the discussion of powerful elite shaping every political/socioeconomical discussion to make sure that it's working class minorities vs working class majority. You pit their issues against each other, you say that one side is taking attention/money away from the other, and you keep them both fighting each other while the elite class continues its reign, doing just enough to keep the fires stoked in the working class.

[KillerB]

Brings me back to the discussion of powerful elite shaping every political/socioeconomical discussion to make sure that it's working class minorities vs working class majority. You pit their issues against each other, you say that one side is taking attention/money away from the other, and you keep them both fighting each other while the elite class continues its reign, doing just enough to keep the fires stoked in the working class.

Yep, it's been that way in the south since before the Civil War... use racism to control the poor "hill folk," who never got any benefit from slavery - in fact it likely hurt them economically - but kept them supporting the status quo.

The party that figures out how to show poor whites and poor minorities that they have mostly common interests would be very difficult to beat.

[tigeraid]

Sensible folks moderate as they get older. With age comes experience and occasionally wisdom. :) Plus, my life over the last ten years has shown me a much wider world than I was exposed to where I was from.

Of course, some of my shift to the left is because I can afford it. If I was back in my circumstances at the beginning of 2006, making one-fifth what I make now and with no prospects of doing better back in Pennsyltucky, I'd probably have been one of the disaffected working class (like most of my old friends and family back home) voting for Trump.


This is true for me as well though we seem to be in the minority. Most people of my generation as we've gotten older have gotten more conservative because, frankly, they've gotten greedier. All that matters is "why are my taxes going up" and "no free lunches." Never mind the future of civilization, or anything.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Brings me back to the discussion of powerful elite shaping every political/socioeconomical discussion to make sure that it's working class minorities vs working class majority. You pit their issues against each other, you say that one side is taking attention/money away from the other, and you keep them both fighting each other while the elite class continues its reign, doing just enough to keep the fires stoked in the working class.

Divide and conquer is the obvious strategy. That's why we have/had East/West Germany, India/Pakistan, North/South Vietnam/Korea, China/Taiwan, basically it'll be easier to rule OVER somebody when they are divided. Surely it is to the establishment/elites' interest to keep Americans divided and hating each other as well.

I'm glad establishment lost control this time, but it is quite unfortunate that the winner this time is Trump...

[Kchrpm]

The fact that people think Trump is anti-establishment is part of the reason that the establishment keeps winning. A casino-magnate that owns luxury real-estate with his name emblazoned on buildings in gold around the world is not part of the working class.

[neanderthal]

Because they don't understand your situation. Countering with you don't need empathy, but they do, is not going to work.
You need empathy to understand why they might vote another way, what their concerns are, why they put their issues above yours.

You are saying "this is real, this is important, my life depends on it"
And you don't think they feel the same way, but on a different issue (like keeping a job)

You need empathy so you can get others on board. It will allow people to realize that we should work towards multiple goals, not just a single goal at the expense of others issues.
Even if it's just being able to counter with "does fixing racism and making black people safer stop us from helping you and your issues?"

Again, that's not a position I disagree with.
My counter point is that after years, decades, centuries of blacks being told to wait, consider, empathise, compromise, here we are again, being told, again, to consider the feelings of others. When do we get our feelings considered, addressed and solved once and for all. Especially in this now even more toxic environment for us.

This wait and consider others thing never seems to work for black people so why should we continue along that path. From slavery, emancipation, 3/5ths, Jim Crow/ separate but equal, civil rights we've constantly been told to be patient and understanding. meanwhile, this year, were getting killed in broad daylight by artifacts of the regime.

It's nice to talk about poor white people and the losses they might experience but what about the things blacks still haven't even gained that whites have had all along. How much longer do we wait?

[Kchrpm]

It's "some areas are struggling" vs "some demographics are treated as inferior human beings, including people in those areas."

If you're a minority in a rural town, you have to deal with the struggling economy *and* the fact that in many cases you're treated as a second class citizen, sometimes more by your fellow citizens than just the government.

[Crazed_Insanity]

The fact that people think Trump is anti-establishment is part of the reason that the establishment keeps winning. A casino-magnate that owns luxury real-estate with his name emblazoned on buildings in gold around the world is not part of the working class.

Trump's billionaire status clearly makes him part of the elite, but he's also clearly not part of the political establishment. Both RNC and DNC don't like him. Most lobbyists also preferred Clinton over Trump by the flow of their donations. He is certainly well established personally, but I'm not sure if he's well liked by the 'establishment'. Of course I'm sure eventually the establishment will probably seduce him to be part of the establishment...

I think one of the worst election cycle was Bush vs Kerry..., both are part of the Skull and Bones secret elitist society. It's like no matter who wins the election, Skull and Bone wins.

Bottomline is that we need more Bernie Sanders... and people really need to think more than 2 parties. Supporting a candidate mostly because you hate the other one more is just stupid.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Again, that's not a position I disagree with.
My counter point is that after years, decades, centuries of blacks being told to wait, consider, empathise, compromise, here we are again, being told, again, to consider the feelings of others. When do we get our feelings considered, addressed and solved once and for all. Especially in this now even more toxic environment for us.

This wait and consider others thing never seems to work for black people so why should we continue along that path. From slavery, emancipation, 3/5ths, Jim Crow/ separate but equal, civil rights we've constantly been told to be patient and understanding. meanwhile, this year, were getting killed in broad daylight by artifacts of the regime.

It's nice to talk about poor white people and the losses they might experience but what about the things blacks still haven't even gained that whites have had all along. How much longer do we wait?

You wait until those poor white folks die off or until they really feel your pain so much that they're willing to put your well being ahead of theirs. (Either way, it'd take a while.)

Nobody can give you an exact timeline..., but as the article I linked earlier and as KB pointed out, empathy is the only possible way. Calling them out as racists can only be counter-productive.

Plus, we are all naturally self serving. Only dumbass like Jesus Christ would willingly sacrifice himself for others. Most Christians probably won't even do that. Myself included. I can't honestly say to you that I'd be willing to let my family starve so that I can help you advance complete equal rights for blacks or gays or whoever. I will only have the luxury to do that when my own family is well off enough...

Demanding others to make the sacrifice to help you just won't be easy... this type of selfless behavior has to be done willingly. Further, when I'm less judgmental and more empathetic to others, surely in time, others will be less judgmental and more empathetic to me too. Quid pro quo.

Anyway, do you really believe that hating and fighting the other side will help your cause? That's the only way to get your demands met?

Even back in the days of WWII, I think most people are fighting against the Nazis not because of their hatred of Nazi, but because of their love for their own country.

Same with terrorism. Do you really believe we can win the war against those terrorists by hating them more?

When can the terrorists meet my demand to just fuck off?!?!?!?

I don't know, but I do know good will always triumph over evil. Love for sure will trump hate in due time...

[neanderthal]

Trump's billionaire status clearly makes him part of the elite, but he's also clearly not part of the political establishment. Both RNC and DNC don't like him. Most lobbyists also preferred Clinton over Trump by the flow of their donations. He is certainly well established personally, but I'm not sure if he's well liked by the 'establishment'. Of course I'm sure eventually the establishment will probably seduce him to be part of the establishment...

I think one of the worst election cycle was Bush vs Kerry..., both are part of the Skull and Bones secret elitist society. It's like no matter who wins the election, Skull and Bone wins.

Bottomline is that we need more Bernie Sanders... and people really need to think more than 2 parties. Supporting a candidate mostly because you hate the other one more is just stupid.


Remind us again who you voted for in the election? And WHY?

[Crazed_Insanity]

As you know, I'm anti-establishment all the way... I wanted Sanders. But since either the DNC and leftist media blocked him or democrats are just too afraid of change, Sanders lost the primary. My other anti-establishment candidate was Donald Trump, but due to some of the stuffs he's said, I really can't vote for him in good conscience.

If there are only 2 choices in the general election, I'd definitely sit out of this election and just let God or American people make the decision. Which is the lesser of 2 evils, I couldn't care less. All I know is that none has my support. (If CA is a battleground state, I would reluctantly cast my vote to Hillary. I just don't want to support her anymore than necessary. Hope this helps you see which do I think is the less of the 2 evils, but it is really a stupid argument for backing someone... here's a piece of rotten apple and here's a piece of more rotten apple sold by the big supermarket chains... which would you choose? Why not just go to another local farmer's market to get an apple that's not rotten? Why should we have to settle for rotten apples?)

So Green party is my farmer's market and Jill Stien became my gal, because she's the closest to Bernie Sanders and both of them I do wholeheartedly support. I think her most outrageous proposal is probably the bailout out of student loan debt..., I also like her proposal of just starving the terrorists out by pulling out of middle east. Anyway, I just don't think status quo is good for us and I like her proposed changes.

I'm also pretty sure the Green Party is not for suppressing and ignoring black lives.

Anyway, so why do you ask?

[neanderthal]

Dude, you voted for Stein because you hated voting for Hillary. but we'll go with your version.

[KillerB]

How much longer do we wait?

Probably until someone figures out how to tap into the economic class issues in this country, getting poor whites and poor minorities both to vote in their own interests. Bernie Sanders was on this path, until the DNC decided to try to paint Sanders as insufficiently interested in supporting minorities.

Much of the ills of minority communities come down to economic issues. There are programs to help alleviate these issues, but the only entitlement programs that enjoy wide support are ones that benefit a majority of citizens. The way to get white Americans to support these programs is to make sure they are targeted based on income and class.

If you look at the real problems in poor rural white communities and poor urban minority communities, they're very, very similar.

[speedpimp]

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-hxa8zo5QUWU/TsywJfIxtrI/AAAAAAAAHoI/7LbAhGV9c58/s1600/Screen+shot+2011-11-23+at+12.34.00+AM.png

[Crazed_Insanity]

Dude, you voted for Stein because you hated voting for Hillary. but we'll go with your version.

I can admit to hating Hillary, but I didn't hate her so much that I must defeat her at all cost by voting Trump. Likewise I also ended up hating Trump but not to the point of voting Hillary hoping that she'll defeat him.

I voted for what I really want.., knowing that I'll be defeated by a group of folks determined to settle for less rotten apples and willing to kill each other for them...

It's sad enough that most believe rotten apples are all we deserve..., what more tragic is that we are killing each other for them!

[Crazed_Insanity]

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-hxa8zo5QUWU/TsywJfIxtrI/AAAAAAAAHoI/7LbAhGV9c58/s1600/Screen+shot+2011-11-23+at+12.34.00+AM.png

Happy thanksgiving to you too pimpy!

:)

[neanderthal]

Gun sales quadrupled to blacks and minorities since Trumps election. (http://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets/gun-store-owners-say-minority-customers-quadrupled-after-election/vp-AAkFY2C)

[FaultyMario]

That piece is clearly for the politics thread, don't you think Mo?

[Crazed_Insanity]

Another awesome reason for the divide and conquer strategy..., pit them against each other will not only make it easy for you the rule over them, but will also fatten your profits by selling them arms. Win win situation for the establishment...

Seriously Neanderthal, whether trump is part of the establishment or not, hatred is good for the establishment. The more you hate, the less you get and the more they profit.

[neanderthal]

That piece is clearly for the politics thread, don't you think Mo?

I put it here because i'm trying to tell these guys that blacks are done with the whole "be patient, it's gonna get better" thing. Certainly speaking for myself and others I know.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Sigh... I feel like O-Billi-1 trying to convince Neanakin Skywalker to not to fall into the dark side..., maybe we'll just have to wait til your son to come along to rescue you...

May the force be with you. If you can succeed and get your demands met quickly with guns and bombs, more power to you and I'll be happy for you. For now, at least try to have a happy thanksgiving, by counting your blessings. This world sucks but it's not all bad, you know? :)

Lastly, I'm pretty sure I can speak for 'these guys' here that we all love you. Me hating Hillary doesn't mean that I hate you.

[mk]

i'm trying to tell these guys that blacks are done with the whole "be patient, it's gonna get better" thing. Certainly speaking for myself and others I know.
It's getting better all the time.
It's just that the norm becomes around the time of third generation.

My vision of the future predicts that Trump is finally peanuts.
Much bigger thing is when robots start picking fruits and stuff.
For what we then need billions of 'spares' and who is then paying.

[Dicknose]

I'm not saying you have to wait.
But saying you don't care about others problems while yelling about your problems is a sure fire way to have people shut down and ignore you.

Take for example Black Lives Matter. I think it's an important issue and it's clearly something needs to be done. But frame it to give others a stake in the issue can help, rather than just make it seem like it's us vs the rest.
Sort of a "all lives matter, so why do we need to say black lives matter?"
Get people in, acknowledge them, then engage them.

I don't know any magic fixes. Things do need to happen now. But when you are trying to change how others treat you, it needs to be done in a way that doesn't alienate or accuse them. You need to engage their empathy, that often means using your empathy and seeing if they return it.

[MR2 Fan]

It's getting better all the time.
It's just that the norm becomes around the time of third generation.

My vision of the future predicts that Trump is finally peanuts.
Much bigger thing is when robots start picking fruits and stuff.
For what we then need billions of 'spares' and who is then paying.

It's feeling a lot more like "1 step forward, 2 steps back" to me.

And maybe, just maybe, America has never been that great to begin with, compared to the ideal version.

[KillerB]

Gun sales quadrupled to blacks and minorities since Trumps election. (http://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets/gun-store-owners-say-minority-customers-quadrupled-after-election/vp-AAkFY2C)

Good for them. I'd like to see the right to gun ownership and concealed carry permits stop being only something the urban elites can associate with "white trash."

(FWIW, the Norwalk Turner's Outdoor, where I bought my S&W M&P15 Sport IIs, seems to be about 40% white, 40% Hispanic, and 20% Black/Asian/Other)

[Kchrpm]

Take for example Black Lives Matter. I think it's an important issue and it's clearly something needs to be done. But frame it to give others a stake in the issue can help, rather than just make it seem like it's us vs the rest.
Sort of a "all lives matter, so why do we need to say black lives matter?"

Because it is predominantly, if not overwhelmingly, black people who are killed and then no charges are brought against the police officers, or they are not found guilty. Even with video evidence. And then you see violent white criminals brought in alive. It seems that it is specifically black lives that do not matter to the system.

As others have said before, saying "save the rainforests" doesn't mean "fuck all the other kinds of forests." It means that rainforests are in a more dangerous and delicate situation than other forests, and more attention needs to be put on the issue.

[mk]

It seems that grand juries are protecting their owns.
That's quite far from the law.

To change that, for starters, you need a favorable supreme court, despite the law.

If 10% is a problem it can be much bigger thing if their position in the hierarchy is not low.
I'm quite sure it can still change in a decade but that's a decade, and not if it's 7-2 against SCOTUS.

[Jason]

I feel like this thread should just be combined with the politics thread.

[Jason]

Because it is predominantly, if not overwhelmingly, black people who are killed and then no charges are brought against the police officers, or they are not found guilty. Even with video evidence. And then you see violent white criminals brought in alive. It seems that it is specifically black lives that do not matter to the system.

As others have said before, saying "save the rainforests" doesn't mean "fuck all the other kinds of forests." It means that rainforests are in a more dangerous and delicate situation than other forests, and more attention needs to be put on the issue.

Breast cancer awareness month? NO, ALL CANCERS MATTER, WHY DON'T YOU CARE ABOUT GRANDPA'S BOOTY CANCER!??! FUCK YOU!!!!!

[mk]

Are blacks overreacting?

Around here the whole situation is pretty academical but my impression is no,
based on media only of course.

And if there's any truth in Grim Sleeper case...

[Crazed_Insanity]

DN was only illustrating a point. We understand what BLM is all about but when you frame the slogan as that, it gives white folks a chance to act defensively and skip the issue all together.

Of course this might not be the best illustration to use because it doesn't really make sense to start with 'All lives matter'...

But point is you can't be too focused on race. For example, Dr Kings civil rights movement was not focused on rights for blacks, but for human being! (Blacks holding signs saying 'I am a man'!)

For BLM movement, I think we can all agree why blacks are upset and rightly so. However, currently we have no real solutions to help out young black men. Will arming black men help them defend themselves? Cameras didn't help so we ought to just disarm the police?

As for disarming other crazy fools...hey, if slaughter of white kindergarten kids wasn't enough to ban guns, why would black lives matter more?

If White House, congress, Supreme Court are all occupied by blacks, what do you think they can do to help blacks in this regard without sending all white folks away?

[The359]

It doesn't give white folks an opportunity, they'd find one no matter how it is framed. The perfect name wont fix their ignorance.

[FaultyMario]

If this thread doesn't get merged to the other one, I'm saying goodbye to it.

It feels like a disservice to Bill's memory to let the original thread die.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Really didn't mean to hijack the political thread, but I do hope that we can engage Neanderthal and whoever else in need a more empathic method rather than just arguing... Whether in this thread or that or the combined...

Base on the responses here, I also think most of us are appreciative of our fond memories together... Helped me feel a bit better than before... Hope we'll make some more in the future.

[Alan P]

Sorry we do NOT need another politics thread.

[SkylineObsession]

Well, now that it's been renamed and now covers subjects i'm tired of hearing about, i'll try avoid the door hitting me on the way out of this topic.

Billi!!!!!!!!!!!!! :smh:

[Crazed_Insanity]

Hey not my fault! :p

Anyway, why do we need to rename this thread, is that what people wanted?

I thought some just want it merged or locked? Or kindly remind folks to cease political discussions?

Maybe this can be an exercise for empathic discussion? Whatever you're against, can you try to step into their shoes?

For example, Neanderthal can pretend to be a white king and think about what he will do for all the black people in his kingdom? Is there really a simple solution?

We most definitely don't need another same old politics thread.

So I suggest we rename this thread 'empathic discussions'. If you refuse to think about others, you can go vent under the original politics thread.

[Kchrpm]

The way you slowly get rid of racism (because there is no fast way) in a system and a people is you make them realize where it was happening when they weren't even thinking about it. You make them stare it in the face, realize what it looks like, and then they have to choose to actively avoid it. It's not about taking away guns, it's about making people realize that their knee jerk reaction to someone of a different color should not overcome the fact that person is a human being just like them, with their own struggles, successes, family, and friends.

Then as racist actions and words are thought but then questioned internally rather than being done or said, children and peers don't see or hear them. They are less likely to have those thoughts, because they have little reason to (especially if they grow up in a diverse environment). When they ask questions or make questionable assumptions, they should be taught appropriately.

It doesn't require minorities being in charge of everything, it requires people deciding that they will honestly evaluate their own thoughts, and what they've been taught directly and indirectly from their family, friends and life experiences. That's just as tough, though.

[Godson]

Yes, apprehension vs racism are also completely different things.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Yeah, Kchrpm, not saying blacks absolutely have to take over everything in order for us to change, but just an empathic exercise for Neanderthal that if he no longer has to fight for it, if he actually has to power to do something about it, what would he do?

Racism is indeed a tough nut to crack... And there might be other issues as well. I've seen a social experiment video of dressing up a kid as a homeless vs dressing her up nicely and let her alone in the streets and people's reaction to her was amazingly inappropriate...

Anyway, I hope Neanderthal will realize that hatred and guns can on add more problems than solving them. Civil rights movement had a clearer and more achievable objective, change the laws to treat us like human beings please! As for BLM, what can white people or the politicians do to fix things quickly?

I can only think of removing all white cops from black neighborhoods for now to eliminate the racial elements... Until we have all officers retrained to not react too harshly against minority or mentality-illed suspects...

Of course in the mean time, my 'solution' might cause black communities to not have enough cops to maintain order...

Point is that I don't think there are any quick and easy fixes. Hatred and gun will only make things worse, right Neanderthal?

[neanderthal]

Billi, thanks, but fuck off. I don't need to realise anything. You don't know me. You don't know my life. You don't know my struggle. You don't know what I hate. You don't get to frame what I like or hate.

[Crazed_Insanity]

So please you frame it for yourself. Explain to yourself why your way is the best and most effective way for our kids' future. Heck, fuck my kids, just think of your own kids' future.

Of course, we also need white folks to know how you feel too. Not trying to say its right for white folks or for me to ignore your feelings...

Without mutual understanding things will only deteriorate further.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Okay, was really inclined to just let the point I was arguing for go, but after hearing my pastor preaching about political polarization last Sunday, I felt the desire to carry this discussion further...

Good thing we have 2 political threads so I won't contaminate the official one. If nobody here wish to discuss this with me further, then of course we can just let this thread drop.

Anyway, my pastor's sermon was naturally directed toward Christians, he was saying we all can naturally take on certain personal political positions; however, should we really be so disgusted by our political oppositions to the point that you think that they can all just goto hell? This is clearly not something Christ would want for he's here to save all, not just to save your half of the population who agrees with you.

Yes, clearly most of you are not Christians, so I’d like to examine this same point on a more secular level. Let's just stick to politics in general and not dwell on any specific issues or any of Billi’s personal shit for the past 150 years… because I want to avoid being side tracked again...

Political ideology is clearly adopted by choice whether if you're left or right leaning or just sitting on the fence. Yes, you could be born on one side and therefore you end up leaning on that side, but there are also plenty of cases where people can make a choice to venture out to the other side...

So my point is that should we really be SO disgusted by our political oppositions to the point of never cooperating with them? Such as blocking/protesting/deriding everything that they propose or do because I know I’m right because facts are with me and I know I can’t possibly be wrong and they are absolutely wrong!

I think our nation’s at a point like we’re a disillusioned couple ready to get a divorce...

Should our nation just get a divorce or separate? Just give up the idea of a united states… That might be the easiest solution to our current problem, but is that really our best solution?

Can liberals and conservative get some sort of ‘marriage counseling’ in order to get along better? Or are we better off with a ‘divorce’?

Of course I personally want some sort of 'marriage counseling' and to be able to work things out, but perhaps Abraham Lincoln's desire to preserve the union of a bunch of states with conflicting interests just wasn't a good one?

What would you do if you're the Abraham Lincoln of modern day America?

[Rikadyn]

Well given that the states the seceded from the Union are now the poorest states most dependent on Government aide to stay afloat...

[Crazed_Insanity]

Well, not all southern states are poor and not all northern states are rich:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/samanthasharf/2016/06/06/the-states-with-the-best-and-worst-economies/#1254594c5b03

Also, considering that more blacks are migrating back to southern states..., surely they were not attracted by KKK's southern hospitality, but by the economic pulls of the region. Maybe black folks are just sick of the cold weather of the north, but then again California has been steadily losing black folks to southern states too. http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2015/02/02/census-great-migration-reversal/21818127/

Maybe some southern states won't survive without federal dollars, but if the south forms their own union, I'm sure the richer southern states will be able to pick up the slack.

Anyway, so you think it's best to just 'divorce'?

[Kchrpm]

I think a lot of the people moving south are moving to places like Atlanta where there is already a large number of like-minded (and like-colored) individuals*, kind of like how a lot of trendy/hipster/whatever people move to Austin or Portland. "The South" and "The North" are not ubiquitous places that we can assign an entire mindset or situation to.

*This is based on the discussions I've seen and heard between friends on if/why they should move to Atlanta, including the idea (I've never checked the numbers) that black women largely outnumber black men and therefore a black man with a job can do quite well in that department.