Teh Formula 1 Encyclopedia: 2018 Edition.

[balki]

Did I miss something with Perez on Sirotkin? It looked bad enough to warrant a race ban, if not more.
Sirotkin pushing Hartley wide was also a dick move, though not nearly as bad.

[samoht]

Agreed that Hamilton's victory was largely achieved on Saturday. Also agree that Max did well to beat the Ferraris in quali and the race, who were expected to be fastest here. I do think Max would be a force in the championship if he had just a bit better of an engine, although that doesn't seem to be in prospect.

In many ways the race shows up what's wrong with F1 - only one driver outside the top three teams finished on the lead lap, and that's Alonso who's leaving the series next year due to lack of competitive opportunities. The fragile tyres really don't promote good racing on street courses like this (and Monaco), either - rather driving slowly to keep the tyres alive as long as possible, knowing that track position outweighs actual speed.

For the championship, this feels like a key moment. To win purely by his own hand, Vettel would need to win all of the remaining six races. If Hamilton beats him even once more, Vettel is then dependent on events outside his control - other drivers beating Hamilton, or him having a retirement - as well as having to win. Any further tension in this championship is going to be a result of Hamilton having problems, it seems to me.

[JoeW]

Agreed...with balki and samoth

[JoeW]

So Grosjean gets a 2pt penalty for ignoring blue flags and Pérez gets a drive thru (or 5 secs, I forget) for running a guy off the road...well 2 guys if you count Ocon.

Edit...I see Pérez got a 3 point penalty. So forget I said that.

[Rare White Ape]

Said what?

[Crazed_Insanity]

He said something about Grosjean and Perez, but my memory is somehow getting fuzzier and fuzzier...

Didn’t realize we have a hypnotist on our forum... :D

[Crazed_Insanity]

Now the race is over, let get back to this:


To stop Merc gaining some sort of advantage, maybe?
Really?

There’s a rule in place that only defending champ cannot have another B team, but everyone else can?

Ferrari now seemingly has a C team!

Anyway, maybe Mercedes itself is the problem..., all Merced’s powered teams appear languishing far behind the factory team... collaboration just seems very lacking.

Wonder if it’s mercedes itself not caring or prevented by other teams.

For the sake of its jr drivers, they really need to have more control over decisions made by FI or Williams somehow...

[JoeW]

Even a couple of weeks ago I thought for sure Vettel was in the driver’s seat in the wdc even though he was down on points. But now it just seems like the team doesn’t make very smart decisions during the race. Granted he got beat in qualifying where it really counted. But he couldn’t capitalize on having the Ultras after the 1st pit stop after initially getting ahead of MV on lap 1. RB still managed to get out of the pits ahead of Vettel. That was Vettels moment to crank it up and try to gain on Ham. But MV managed to actually gain on Vettel and keep him in sight.

Hamilton has this one in the bag now.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Com’on, it’s not like Mercedes and Hamilton are incapable of fucking up ever again.

Vettel has the edge with a better car.

[JoeW]

That’s what I thought but PPPPPP (prior planning prevents piss poor performance). And Ferrari manages to snatch defeat out of the jaws of victory lately.

[Blerpa]

Com’on, it’s not like Mercedes and Hamilton are incapable of fucking up ever again.

Vettel has the edge with a better car.

The better car theme has a bit vaned.

[Rare White Ape]

Now the race is over, let get back to this:


Really?

There’s a rule in place that only defending champ cannot have another B team, but everyone else can?


I dunno man. Google it. Find out why the other teams didn’t let Merc buy Force India.

[FaultyMario]

So Grosjean gets a 2pt penalty for ignoring blue flags and Pérez gets a drive thru (or 5 secs, I forget) for running a guy off the road...well 2 guys if you count Ocon.


RoGro at risk of race ban for the rest of the season.

1. It'd be ironic if he did b/c the rule was instated after his Belgian GP antics.
2. It'd be terrible if he did b/c Ferrouche is next in line for Haas.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I dunno man. Google it. Find out why the other teams didn’t let Merc buy Force India.

Okay, so it's the smaller independent teams who are against Mercedes..., but isn't this too little too late? RB and Ferrari are already doing this...

McLaren itself should've done this. Not necessarily just to have a B-team, but have 2 A-teams with different management, engineers, drivers and engines. So you know where you are fucking up at least!

Point is B-team concept is already happening and you can't really stop it anymore. Might as well have that rather than allowing rich folks buying rides for their rich kids. Racing should be based on merit, not based on how deep your pocket is. Williams being where they are is somewhat understandable. However, McLaren with sufficient funding being where they are is not excusable. Might as well allocated some of their funding to finance the FI team. If they don't want that, at least allow Mercedes to do it.

Anyway, hope Strolls know what they're doing.

[JoeW]

Money rules all. There are no rags to riches modern F1 driver stories.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I understand that. Not that I have anything against money..., I have no problems with Toyota wasting billions and got little to show for, however, I just don't like to see paid drivers occupying limited # of seats. That can't be good for the sport, right?

Mercedes 'sponsoring' FI will give that team a much better long term future and allow more worthy drivers to have racing seats.

McLaren and Williams ought to fix their own problems 1st before worrying about other independent teams.

Renault can just collaborate with McLaren closely and figure out themselves which team is the A team and which is B.

For the manufacturer, it's win win either way. For the independent teams, if you don't have enough money and talent to beat the factory team, maybe you should just go race Indycars.

[Blerpa]

Money rules all. There are no rags to riches modern F1 driver stories.

Hamilton.

[JoeW]

Hamilton most certainly did not start out a poor farm boy living in the middle of the road in a rolled up newspaper licking the road clean with his tongue.

He most certainly grew up not wanting for anything.

[FaultyMario]

But he did.

He came from r/c racing.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Anyway, Hamilton for sure got to where he is by merit.

[JoeW]

We all started RC racing.

I read his wiki page. His dad bought him a racing cart for Christmas when he was 6. His dad had nice IT job and started his own computer company. His brother also races professionally.

You don’t start racing being poor. At the very least his family was middle class. But definitely not rags to riches. More like less rich to filthy rich. His dad only had to pay for his cart racing for 4-5 years before the big support money came in from McLaren at age 13.

So yes he was fast but he was never poor. They say humble upbringings, but humble compared to someone who grew up in Monaco is a pretty damn good start.

[Rare White Ape]

He was also a good marketing ploy. Marketing and the ability to attract $$$ is the basis of 90% of the big decisions made in F1.

Only a very few are made for pure sporting reasons. And I can only name a few teams that are there because sport is their primary pursuit. One of them is Ferrari.

[FaultyMario]

There's videos of him. The operation that his dad Ran for him does look below average compared to other kids. He was lucky that his superior abilities were picked up early on by proper racing outfits.

[Alan P]

So I Wrote another article (https://www.grandprix247.com/2018/09/19/why-is-ocon-not-racing-in-f1-next-season/), and I know I got my Haas's mixed up. I've asked for the article to be amended.

[Blerpa]

Hamilton most certainly did not start out a poor farm boy living in the middle of the road in a rolled up newspaper licking the road clean with his tongue.

He most certainly grew up not wanting for anything.

Ah, I see.
You totally ignore Hamilton's career and family history.
Carry on.

[JoeW]

I did some light reading...

Decided he was a shitload richer than my family and a shitload poorer than someone who grows up in Monaco. So, pretty damn well off in my book.

Carrying on...

[Blerpa]

Mick Schumacher won race 1 of Austrian Euro F3 weekend. Ticktum ended only 8th: now Schumacher is first in the standings (286 vs. 268), lets see what happens in race 2 and 3.

[JoeW]

Are the F2 and 3 on any major networks?

[Blerpa]

No idea, sorry.
Mind, this is Euro F3 which next year will be fused with actual GP3 (the lower series of Fia sanctioned ladder structure to F1, below F2 which was called GP2 till two years ago) and will be called F3.
Mick Schumacher won also race 2 and Ticktum retired (311 points vs. 268).
In race 3 Mick got second, behind his russian teammate Shwartzman, while Ticktum got 4th place; now the gap is 49 points in favour of Schumacher Jr.

[FaultyMario]

So, even if he sweeps his way past the Asia series he is headed to over the winter, Ticktum won't have enough points for F1?

[Blerpa]

Probably not.

[Freude am Fahren]

I think MAVTV covers some junior formula. Also maybe highlight shows on CBS Sports?

[Rare White Ape]

We get F2 broadcast here on Fox Sports.

[dodint]

Antonio Giovinazzi in at Sauber alongside Kimi in 2019. Ericsson to be third driver.

[FaultyMario]

Does Ferrari still have a say on one of the Haas seats?

[Alan P]

Does Ferrari still have a say on one of the Haas seats?

I'm not really sure TBH. Neither KMag or Romain have any Ferrari links although it was rumoured that Leclerc would be going to Haas for a season.

[Blerpa]

Haas being an ass refused Leclerc when Ferrari asked them to let park him there for a bit... they are going to be less helped than Sauber from next season onward.
Sauber is now officially Ferrari's junior team, like Toro Rosso for Red Bull: ex F1 champion driving for them and doing a lot of promotion for Alfa Romeo, young italian promise alongside the veteran, basically Ferrari will have a say on almost anything Sauber now.

[Rare White Ape]

Hasn’t Sauber been their go-to for a long time anyway?

[Blerpa]

Hasn’t Sauber been their go-to for a long time anyway?

Lets say Haas has made Ferrari's choice very easy to take.

[Crazed_Insanity]

All these decisions are baffling me.

What's so difficult to let Leclerc drive your car? Team Haas is just so emotionally attached to its current drivers that they're willing to risk pissing off Ferrari?

Also, not that I'm unhappy that Kimi's staying, but why is he driving a Sauber?!?!?

Probably a lot of behind the scene stuffs going on?

[FaultyMario]

Also, not that I'm unhappy that Kimi's staying, but why is he driving a Sauber?!?!?



Who know$ why that'd be. I cannot venture an opinion.

[Rare White Ape]

All these decisions are baffling me.

What's so difficult to let Leclerc drive your car? Team Haas is just so emotionally attached to its current drivers that they're willing to risk pissing off Ferrari?

$$$


Also, not that I'm unhappy that Kimi's staying, but why is he driving a Sauber?!?!?

$$$


Probably a lot of behind the scene stuffs going on?

$$$

[Crazed_Insanity]

Kimi really needed the money?

[Alan P]

Kimi really needed the money?

Or could just enjoy being an F1 driver? Some talk that Ferrari are paying part or even all of his wages at Sauber too. And I'd imagine he gets to do a lot less publicity and sponsor stuff at Sauber than at Ferrari.

[Blerpa]

He actually will be an Alfa Romeo ambassador, so that goes your less publicity theory.
Money and wanting to stay in F1 with a reliable car... which Alfa Rom- ahem, Sauber, is going to be with Ferrari's money and engines.

[Crazed_Insanity]

He actually will be an Alfa Romeo ambassador, so that goes your less publicity theory.


He doesn’t have to give a fuck about that!

[Freude am Fahren]

None of these guys (or any sportsman) needs the money.

Also, I imagine most of them (and the world) would consider it stupid to turn down money to continue driving.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I tend to think racers are in it to win races. Why would you join a team that’d never win? Alonso was tricked by Mclaren, kimi is willingly going to Sauber... I still can’t believe money was the only motivation...

He must really love driving f1 cars!

[Blerpa]

I tend to think racers are in it to win races. Why would you join a team that’d never win? Alonso was tricked by Mclaren, kimi is willingly going to Sauber... I still can’t believe money was the only motivation...

He must really love driving f1 cars!

Because F1 is the top, and you try to stay in it as much as possible.
I mean, think about a racing career in a online sim like iRacing or similar... if you got to the top and time passed, would you mind acknowledging you are old but yet going to race in it and be paid for it, even with a pay cut or would you go to a less important/elitist/rarified-air series? I mean, Alonso would still be in F1 if McLaren would have been competitive or Red Bull had convinced him to drive for them, surely.
Kimi went rallying and got back to F1 in Renault before going back to Ferrari... Kubica desperately tried to be back in it. Hakkinen tried to get back to F1 two years after retiring but it was too late and McLaren by then had other plans.
For good or worse, nothing out there is like F1. Nothing.

[Rare White Ape]

None of these guys (or any sportsman) needs the money.

That would be correct. Most of them are millionaires.

But the teams are always on the hunt for more money, so the backroom deals are always valuable to them.

Peter Sauber doesn’t seem like the sorta guy who’d suck penis in a back alley, but $20 million is $20 million.

[JoeW]

I bet RB are somewhat disappointed in the timing of their engine and gearbox change this weekend as it looked like they could have easily out qualified Ferrari and maybe brought home some valuable P3 and P4 points.

How about Mag with the P5 in Q3...and LeClerc right behind. Man the Sauber has really come alive lately. Renault...what an embarrassing day for them. So they get choice of tire but at least take a lap for effort.

[Alan P]

So this has made me wonder on Leclerc for World Champion next season if Ferrari have a good car again. Lets face it throughout most of the season they've had the superior motor vehicle, yet Seb and poor strategy have cost them wins throughout the season. Had they got strategy right and had Lewis in the car they'd be leading right now. It's possible Vettel will be out at the end of his contract.

[FaultyMario]

they've had the superior motor vehicle

Nah, that's just the Sky narrative.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Nah, that's just the Sky narrative.

Performances of B teams pretty much prove this narrative as well?

[JoeW]

Quote of the race when Hulkenburg said something along the line of...is RB leading the race? How did that happen? That was hilarious. Middle of the race and he’s wondering if the world turned upside down somehow. Cats and dogs living together...mass hysteria!

Pretty good race. For fucks sake stop shitting on Bottas.

These stupid grid penalties for gearbox and engine changes are idiotic. It’s a disservice to the fans and no fault of the driver.

[Crazed_Insanity]

These stupid grid penalties for gearbox and engine changes are idiotic. It’s a disservice to the fans and no fault of the driver.

Totally.

Perhaps they should just deduct manufacturer championship points for excessive changes..

[JoeW]

When Vettel came out of the pit ahead of Hamilton I was pretty excited for a good scrap but the Merc just went right by after a very short battle. I was bummed that it couldn’t last longer.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Based on your assessment, if you were given both the Mercedes and the Ferrari, of course assume you have the super license to drive those 2 f1 cars, which vehicle would lap faster in your hands?

[Alan P]

Based on your assessment, if you were given both the Mercedes and the Ferrari, of course assume you have the super license to drive those 2 f1 cars, which vehicle would lap faster in your hands?

While it may have reversed recently, for most of this season, and most commentators and pundits I've read/heard seem to agree, the Ferrari has been the faster car. If Vettel hadn't crashed in Hockenheim the championship would be a very different animal and I doubt anyone would have been torn about Bottas and Hamilton swapping places.

[FaultyMario]

the Merc just went right by

That has been the case in the last races. As it has been in the last 5 years.

[JoeW]

I was hoping Vettel could at least slow him down for awhile. Hell, Ham couldn’t get around Max...not that he really needed to since they knew RB had to pit eventually. But he tried and couldn’t stick it. I just expected Vettel to make it extremely difficult but alas ‘twas not to be.

[Freude am Fahren]

I think the Ferrari started the season on top, but I think the Merc has come on stronger in development. Also, it seems Mercedes has a car that is more of an all-rounder than in the past.

[JoeW]

What’s scary is how much better the RB car is than all of them. If they had 98% of the power of the Merc they would be unbeatable.

[FaultyMario]

Stop drinking the Red Bull, buddy.

That's just their excuse. The big gains Ferrari had this year came from a better understanding of the ERS, Red Bull could put development resources behind that technology if they wished to do so; clearly they have other plans. They're perfectly happy in that limbo where they have no competition and they can play their "but, the Renault" card whilst they get a lot of money from Liberty. I'm pretty sure they've run their cost-benefit analysis and it's not worth it for them to jump up to tier-one.

[JoeW]

Well their chassis is clearly top notch. If they had a Mercedes or Ferrari power unit then I don’t think they could be beat.

[Crazed_Insanity]

RB is clearly top of tier 1 amongst Renault powered teams.

If RB could get their hands on the engines that went to Sauber, I’m sure RB could be back in contention for the championship again...

[FaultyMario]

But they didn't. Their sorry-ass sob-story is almost as bad a Alonso's.


Almost.

[JoeW]

Now I certainly have near zero knowledge about the inner workings of F1 but can a chassis team like RB, McLaren etc pretty much pick whatever engine manufacturer they want to deal with as long as they pony up the dollars? Could McLaren go to Mercedes and say hey we are ready to shell out the big bucks for an engine deal and it would be done? Or does Merc, Fer etc only deal with certain teams?

Just curious why a really good chassis team like RB couldn't just make it happen? Or does Merc, Ferr etc not want to sell to someone who could clearly pose them a problem in the championship?

[Crazed_Insanity]

I thought it’s public news that Mercedes and Ferrari didn’t want to sell because they don’t want RB to threaten their own championship ambitions.

As for mclaren, I think they burnt their bridge with Mercedes?

Anyway, I don’t think money is the issue.

[FaultyMario]

There are a bunch of variables to running an F1 car. The PU, the ancilliary elements (gearboxes, clutches, etc) and chassis are only a few of them. And the short answer to your question of whether teams can freely shop for PUs is, yes.

But nothing in F1 is simple.

Take the three elements I listed above, add a fourth in the form of integration. For example Williams has been using Mercedes gearboxes for the last 2 years (I think). It sort of makes sense to use something their PU supplier is also using, except that in Williams' case it doesn't. They are having a lot of problems understanding their own chassis, which they think they have under-developed this year, but they see as a promising technology to further build upon. Now Force India also use the PU + GB combo, plus they throw in some extra components (rear suspension, I think). And that works for them, but it must also work for Mercedes. You see, when you buy something from a powerful entity like Mercedes, the customer is in a disadvantaged position, so they also get deals for having one of their drivers take one of their seats. But we don't know if that also means that Force India (or Williams) have to provide information on how the PU+GB+extras work under certain conditions. So because of the relative assymetry between suppliers and customers in F1 they are not paying only with money.

Could Red Bull run a Mercedes engine? Yes if they were willing to do a faustian pact.

Since that's not a realistic possibility, RBR just go around telling everyone how unfair this whole business of F1 is, at the same time they say that they are the best at building one of the many integrated parts that make up the very complex system that is an F1 car. Which as you can understand is impossible to prove, or disprove.

[JoeW]

Now the question of the week...is the power unit in Hamilton/Bottas cars the same as a customer car?

[balki]

I thought there was a rule this year stating it had to be (at least this is the first year Sauber is not using an old Ferrari engine

[FaultyMario]

We know (https://www.diariomotor.com/competicion/imagenes/picscache/1440x655c/scuderia-ferrari-mission-winnow-2_1440x655c.jpg) now that Philip Morris know how to win advertising space in F1 cars by circunventing certain rules.

[Rare White Ape]

You’re lucky that I have reverse image search, so that I can work out the context of that photo.

https://www.diariomotor.com/competicion/noticia/ferrari-estrena-nueva-imagen-ligada-a-la-mission-winnow-de-philip-morris/

[Crazed_Insanity]

Clever!

Yes Sebastian Vettel or Kimi Raikkonen, your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to WIN NOW!!!! Go Smok'em!

[samoht]

I thought it’s public news that Mercedes and Ferrari didn’t want to sell because they don’t want RB to threaten their own championship ambitions.

Yup, I'm pretty sure RB tried to obtain Merc or Ferrari engines and was turned down, for obvious reasons.


I thought there was a rule this year stating it had to be (at least this is the first year Sauber is not using an old Ferrari engine

Indeed, a quick google suggests they should be as of this season https://www.google.com/search?q=f1+customer+engine+parity&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

I think the engine vendor retains a couple of advantages: they get to design their car and engine as a package, where the customers have to take the engine they're given and integrate it into a car in a shorter timeframe, and the vendor can choose when to release an improved iteration of their engines, synchronising it with their own needs to take a new powerplant, whereas customer teams may end up having to either wait or take penalties. Plus of course the factory teams have more money to start with.


To be honest, the engine situation is probably the least bad of all F1's problems, because it is naturally solving itself over time - the longer the rules stay constant, the closer the four manufacturers' efforts get. Since 2014 we've gone from only one engine being able to win to a fairly balanced battle between two. I reckon Honda will be in the mix in a year or two, and even Renault will probably get there eventually. It's a slow process because the engines are so complex and there's so much to optimise, but the usual trend of convergence is definitely happening.


The inability of cars to follow each other, and the inability for mid-field teams to make money, are probably bigger issues IMO.

[FaultyMario]

There was statement from Perez following the Russian GP that depending on venue, cars ought to be 7 seconds apart from each other in qualifying in order to get a clean run. Spa and Monza are different because of the long straights, where the tow from the car ahead -although a negative in corners- is overcome by the draft gains.

[XHawkeye]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DovBwXNX0AITjAh.jpg

[XHawkeye]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dozsa0kW0AAsCAn.jpg

@wtf1official (https://twitter.com/wtf1official/status/1048472765798469633) The closest McLaren have been to pole position in a while #JapanaseGP #F1

[SkylineObsession]

Right, let's get a tally going.
Name the ways that Hartley will fail to finish the race, or in the top 10-15 at least.

I say first corner incident, or first lap at least.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Yeah, it’s not helpful with Grosjean starting next to you..., but I have a feeling that the kiwi might surprise again!!!

[FaultyMario]

Hartley is going to crash into Grasly before L2, he is not faster than the dharma he is carrying.

[FaultyMario]

There's no way you can justify that, Verstappen fans.

[FaultyMario]

I think max jumped the start.

[FaultyMario]

And the switcharoo for mercedes coming in 3... 2... 1...

[FaultyMario]

LeClerec gets a WDC before Verstappen.

You heard that here first.

[FaultyMario]

Good for Honda.

[FaultyMario]

Alonso fighting hard with Stroll. Fitting.

[FaultyMario]

I think max jumped the start.

Why wasn't this investigated. He never stopped still!!

[Yobbo NZ]

Honda - We have new engine which means more power.
Hartley couldn't pass Ericsson, which allowed Alonso and Van Damm to catch up.
Sainz also made Gasley look slow towards the end as he flew past using DRS.
Wonder if there were issues they couldn't discuss and had to turn the power down.

[JoeW]

Great fun to watch the race today. Great drives by the RBR guys to bring it home in 3rd and 4th. Was hoping for better from TR but they ran out of tire at the end.

RB should have been 5 and 6 but Ferrari continues to make dumb decisions during qualifying (which put them back on the grid for the start) and the race when Vettel killed his own chances making a dumb move during the race.

I agreed with all the announcers (and a few other racer reporters) who said the Max/Kimi incident should not have been a penalty and the Vettel incident was Vettels fault.

But lucky for Max he wasn’t damaged too badly and made the podium yet again while over performing his equipment.

I can believe that LeClerc might get a WDC before Max. Being in arguably the best car on the grid definitely tips the scales in your favor. As long as he doesn’t self destruct and Ferrari doesn’t suddenly make shit engines, he has been handed a golden ticket.

[FaultyMario]

I agreed with all the announcers (and a few other racer reporters) who said the Max/Kimi incident should not have been a penalty

:twitch:

[Alan P]

The penalty wasn't for max trying to push Kimi off the track it was for re-entering the track in an unsafe manner.

[JoeW]

Agreed. At the time the announcers said it probably shouldn't have been a penalty because once he was off, he really had nowhere else to go. But it's all good. The penalty had no effect on the final results. Max wasn't going to get by Bottas anyways unless he really made a big mistake. DRS made no difference against the Merc power.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Anyway, the kiwi didn’t crash as predicted nor did he finish particularly well either...

No need for TR/Honda to make fun of mclaren, now, neither of you guys can really fight!

It’ll certainly be interesting to watch whether if it’s Charles or Max wins the WDC 1st.

I can’t imagine Ferrari would allow Charles to win before Vettel... if that happens, I suppose Vettels career would be over...

[JoeW]

I’m thinking Ferrari makes some changes in the offseason, gets their shit together and wins next season.

[Tom Servo]

Maybe I just don't have enough F1 experience, but that's a slow corner and I don't see how anyone could say that Max had nowhere to go. He's got brakes. He could have slowed down more and come back onto the racing surface without *immediately swinging to the far end of the racing surface*. If someone did that to me in iRacing I'd protest it.

That said, he managed to pull it out with the +5 he got and the incident with Vettel was 100% Vettel's fault.

[Kchrpm]

I agree with all the things that Swervo just said.

[FaultyMario]

Servo's an agreeable dude, innit?

[JoeW]

After watching it again a few times I think he never decomitted to the corner. So even at the last few feet he was thinking I scan still pull it off. If he had gone more straight across the grass he probably would have had to get a track cut penalty and give the place to Kimi. So he tried follow the corner as close as possible and hopefully come out still ahead of Kimi. By following the corner as closely as he could, at the track reentry he had nowhere to go because the turning radius on those cars are terrible.

So because he chose to try and make the corner the entire way he rat holed himself into a nowhere to go scenario. If he had given up on the corner he definitely loses the position. So in the end he made the right call because I doubt he gets a podium if Kimi gets ahead there. And I don’t think any of the top drivers would have done differently.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Yeah, however one dissects this, max was at fault with this 1st incident. He braked too late and will somehow incur a penalty one way or another. Just glad Kimi wasn’t damaged too badly...

I was looking at the replays of the 2nd incident with Vettel..., yeah, for sure Vettel was overly optimistic, but Max did leave a gap open, any championship chasing driver would probably have gone for it.

You can clearly see Vettel wasn’t aiming for Max, and Max didn’t intentionally close the door on Vettel either based on the respective onboard cameras... its just unfortunate that their racing lines eventually intersected. So I think the right call was made.

If Vettel couldve climbed the curb a bit more and Max leave him a bit more room, the incident probably could be avoided. But obviously both drivers think they own the track and weren’t about to yield for anyone....

Anyway, Vettel is obviously cracking under pressure..., desperately taking way too many unnecessary risks. Wheel to wheel racing with Max is not a good idea... even if you’re his teammate!

[CudaMan]

You know what was cool? To see drivers racing more often than they were engineering tyre life. The cars were moving around.

Long live Suzuka.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Yep.

However it would’ve been cooler if Ferrari didn’t screw up qualifying... then they might be able to challenge Mercedes a bit more...

Anyway, Suzuka is definitely one of my favorite video game tracks! ;)

[JoeW]

Yup

[JoeW]

Definitely ready for a changing of the guard. Tired of seeing Hamilton and Vettel all the time. I was really happy when Schumacher stopped winning. Every damn race it seemed like...was always rooting for Rubens or Mika or anyone else.

[XHawkeye]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Do4mRsBW0AADfFD.jpg

LAP 33/53 Fernando Alonso just completed his 16,632nd racing lap in F1 He's now completed more laps than anyone but Michael Schumacher! 🤓 #JapaneseGP (https://twitter.com/F1/status/1048817857075847168)

[Alan P]

Definitely ready for a changing of the guard. Tired of seeing Hamilton and Vettel all the time. I was really happy when Schumacher stopped winning. Every damn race it seemed like...was always rooting for Rubens or Mika or anyone else.

I reckon Leclerc will give Seb a run for his money and Seb won't like it one bit.

[JoeW]

Then he’ll move on again like he did when Ricciardo started beating him :)

[Rare White Ape]

Ha! Look closely at the pic of Alonso’s McLaren. The tops of the side pods have what look like rows of bony armour as seen on various dinosaurs like Stegosaurids.

Will they go the next step and install thagomisers on the rear?

[JoeW]

I don’t know if all you Max fans were aware of this but he is only 23 pts behind Kimi for 4th :)

Anything’s possible and I know you all will be pulling for him :)

[Crazed_Insanity]

You should just join fantasy f1 here next season and put your fantasy money where your mouth is....

I think Max has a slim chance of finishing 3rd..., but I’m mostly excited for the ‘best of rest’ having such close championship battles...

[FaultyMario]

Aren't all circuits left slippery, powery, peanutbuttery?
Maybe Brazil, but I expect Mexico and maybe Cota to favor the Haas and the RPFI so they might be able to snatch a position off the Red Bulls.

Does anyone have a video file of the Japanese GP, Could you check if Verstappen jumped the start? The F1 replay starts too late to make a conclusion, but it seemed to me that car #33 was moving before the other cars were. He had a mediocre start, the people behind him did as well, and that kind of attenuates the possible infraction.

[Blerpa]

Strangely enough in italian forums no one bitched about Verstappen jumping the start... since he is almost totally hated with fierceness by italian Ferrari fans I guess he did not, or they would have bitched about it till kingdom come (they do about anything he does, basically, and call him "Versbatten" which is a mix of his surname and the verb "sbattere" that means to hit something or somewhere).

[dodint]

Like Crash Musthappen?

[Tom Servo]

call him "Versbatten" which is a mix of his surname and the verb "sbattere" that means to hit something or somewhere).

I am totally using this.

[Blerpa]

Use it at will!

Ok, so let's sit down... we got news.
Formula E HWA team offered a seat to Wehrlein for next season but he refused because he still hoped in a F1 call. Seems he is going to stay put in DTM, though.
HWA is officializing Gary Paffett and rumours say he will race alongside Stoffel Vandoorne, so here it is where the poor belgian will race next season, probably.

Now, on the big news: Mercedes is going to keep Ocon as simulator/reserve/third driver in its own main team but meanwhile has got an agreement to place George Russell on a Williams seat.
How did this happen? Markelov (which is a funny competent hothead in GP2 and would be nice to see on a F1 car, my opinion) was linked to a Williams seat but his father judiciary problems has halted the move of the russian from the tester role in Renault to a full time grid place with the Grove team.

Ocon is still waiting for some positive news by Force India, since Stroll Sr. entourage has not confirmed Sergio Perez seat in the team... a really tiny hope, but still. He is not exactly happy to not race for 1 or 2 seasons till Bottas deal ends.
Perez should be officialized by the Mexico GP... if not by then the french driver could have some leverage to retain his seat.

Toro Rosso second driver is still a mystery: Marko did meet with Sirotkin but the russian is probably staying at Williams since Helmut is not convinced.
The austrian manager also rejected Wehrlein as already said.
Alexander Albon, ex Toro Rosso driver, is also considered... he is ready and has the available license points since he is racing in F2 with good results (currently second in the standings). He has ties with Nissan but that shouldn't be a problem.
Otherwise Hartley could stay put but the team doesn't want him, gossip says.

So to recap:
Ocon -> Mercedes reserve driver / Second seat at Force India if Perez deal falls through.
Russell -> Second seat at Williams alongside Sirotkin
Markelov -> No Williams seat, will stay put as tester at Renault

Toro Rosso -> Sirotkin and Werhlein shoot down, Albon alongside Kyvyat, otherwise last chance for Hartley.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Good thing I'm sitting down. My head is spinning!

Thanks for the info! :up:

[Freude am Fahren]

Ocon looked so promising when he first arrived in F1. Since then, he's definitely still impressive, but maybe not quite the star I originally thought he would be.

Maybe it's a mindset.

[FaultyMario]

I think that's because people underrate Perez.

Ocon isn't "not that good", it's Perez who isn't "not that bad".

He might not be my favorite Mexican driver, but the guy sure delivers.

[Freude am Fahren]

Yeah, maybe he was in a funk for a while, because he was looking rather plain next to Ocon at first. It does seem he's gotten back to form a bit.

[Crazed_Insanity]

These midfield drivers are locked in a super tight championship battle... when Daniel Ricciardo joins them next year, assuming Renault stays relatively the same, it’d be more obvious how these drivers really compare...

At the very least we’ll find out how good the hulk is I guess...

Anyway, the only obvious rising stars of f1 is still Max and now Charles! Mercedes Jr program just hasn’t discovered a super star yet... as long as you’re not a paid driver, surely everyone good enough to earn a ride is an automatic star. Being super is another level...

[FaultyMario]

Russel takes Stroll's Williams seat for 2019.

[Blerpa]

Meanwhile Mick Schumacher is the new Euro F3 2018 champion. He will probably race next season in F2 with Prema. Also he does not want to tie himself to any big F1 team junior programme, he declared, he wants to be free to choose and not risk to become a victim of paddock politics like Ocon.
Vandoorne officialized at HWA in Formula E.
Also, note down the name of Juri Vips, a young estonian that showed great promise at debut this last race weekend in Euro F3.

[Rare White Ape]

Schumacher needs to time things right so that he enters just as a big fish leaves. Say for example he drives for a smaller team for two years, then Vettel or Hamilton retire and he slots straight in as #1 driver.

If that doesn’t happen then he’ll be stuck in crappy team purgatory. So many good drivers have been there through bad timing or poor choices.

[Freude am Fahren]

Fortunately, that timing might be good. Ham and Vettel might be gone in a few years. Enough time to do a few more junior seasons, and one or two in a smaller team, or as a 2nd driver in a big team, should he show the skills.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Difficult to time your move that way... since you can't know when those old geezers will retire or perhaps kill themselves prematurely so you end up missing out...

If you can demonstrate that you can consistently blow your teammates away, it'd be hard for you to lose your seat to your teammate. Unless of course if your mate has a rich daddy.

Perez and Ocon are just pretty evenly matched. Considering that Perez also took off-track actions to help save the team, I think he deserves another season with the team.

[XHawkeye]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DpjP6BxXUAE4J45.jpg

When a meme becomes reality! (https://twitter.com/wtf1official/status/1051819149561880576)

[JoeW]

Yeah it doesn't look good for Ric in the immediate future. He's gonna get his ass kicked by various others in the "7th place is as good as winning" crowd next year. Now if Renault can really bring all their manufacturer might to bear on improving then they should make pretty good progress for 2020. That's a big IF though. Same problem with RB. How long can they be 3rd best team by using chassis wizardry without having control of the power unit side of things. They are only going to be as fast as the engines they can buy...and the top two engine companies won't take your money.

So things should stay the same for the next couple of years but I look forward to seeing the silliness when the engine rules change again.

[Freude am Fahren]

I do think Honda is making progress, but at the same time, I hope they learned something from their time with McLaren. If I remember correctly, they had a lot of issues with reliability because of packaging demands from the team, and I'm sure Red Bull will be just as demanding, if not more.

[Crazed_Insanity]

If you assembled a right team, tide can quickly turn in f1. It’s not like Renault and Honda has never dominated the scene before. Teams also never remained on top...

I still remembered back then I thought Hamilton was stupid to give up Mclaren for stupid Mercedes... could any of you guys really predict Mercedes could dominate for this long and Mclaren could falter this badly back then?!?!

[JoeW]

Well Hamilton didn’t start dominating until they changed the engine rules right? Wasn’t it all Vettel/RB with the Renault engine? Then the big rule change and it was Mercedes all the way from there?

[Alan P]

Well Hamilton didn’t start dominating until they changed the engine rules right? Wasn’t it all Vettel/RB with the Renault engine? Then the big rule change and it was Mercedes all the way from there?

It was indeed and this what Renault are hoping to do. Renault are investing heavily with building work to expand going on at Enstone and at Viry where they make the engines along with a great deal of recruitment. Honestly if Honda don’t deliver for Red Bull then Daniel could have pulled a master stroke.

[Crazed_Insanity]

As long as Adrian Newey is with RB, I kinda doubt RB will end up like McLaren even if Honda continue to suck. Considering how many years Honda has been in this, they really should improve more by next year...

As for Renault, I know they had a rich history too, but somehow I get the feeling that they've diluted themselves a bit too thin. Shouldn't you focus more on at least building a more reliable power unit 1st? Your engine isn't the most powerful... that's fine, but please make it more reliable. Your chassis is also not up to par with RB. It's like you can do nothing well.

I wonder if Honda is also in the similar boat still. I wonder who fucked who in the McLaren Honda collaboration. Maybe they were equally fucked up... For now, it looks like McLaren is doing better without Honda... and Honda is also doing better without McLaren. Remains to be seen how RB Honda will do.

Like I said, due to Newey, I'm willing to bet more on RB, but who knows, Ricciardo could be repeating what Hamilton did when 2021 comes along.

Should Mercedes lags behind due to rule change, they'll probably pack up their bags and leave. Renault should've just focus on their power unit and then buy it up when Mercedes leaved. Right now it really feels like Renault isn't accomplishing much with their big investments.

[FaultyMario]

Any updates on James Key?, has he been allowed to move to Macca?

[Alan P]

As long as Adrian Newey is with RB, I kinda doubt RB will end up like McLaren even if Honda continue to suck. Considering how many years Honda has been in this, they really should improve more by next year...

As for Renault, I know they had a rich history too, but somehow I get the feeling that they've diluted themselves a bit too thin. Shouldn't you focus more on at least building a more reliable power unit 1st? Your engine isn't the most powerful... that's fine, but please make it more reliable. Your chassis is also not up to par with RB. It's like you can do nothing well.

I wonder if Honda is also in the similar boat still. I wonder who fucked who in the McLaren Honda collaboration. Maybe they were equally fucked up... For now, it looks like McLaren is doing better without Honda... and Honda is also doing better without McLaren. Remains to be seen how RB Honda will do.

Like I said, due to Newey, I'm willing to bet more on RB, but who knows, Ricciardo could be repeating what Hamilton did when 2021 comes along.

Should Mercedes lags behind due to rule change, they'll probably pack up their bags and leave. Renault should've just focus on their power unit and then buy it up when Mercedes leaved. Right now it really feels like Renault isn't accomplishing much with their big investments.

Their power unit is only a little bit behind the rest in terms of reliability, it's just Red Bull have more mechanical DNF's due to it than the other two teams. It's been suggested this is because they have different packaging compared to McLaren and Renault themselves which results in issues.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Yeah, Newey probably directed more air to generate downforce and less air to cool the engine... result is a faster package that also resulted in more DNFs...

Anyway, it’s obvious both Renault and Honda are the laggers and very inconsistent at the moment. Hope things change next year to make things more interesting...

[Blerpa]

Yeah, I was going to say: Red Bull is the real culprit here, but they use the excuse of Renault engine lack of power to hide their deficiencies.
Next year is going to be a laugh... and let's see if way too many people are optimistic on Honda.
Lest we forget Toyota ludricrously expensive stint in F1 or Renault failed attempt in the turbo era.

[FaultyMario]

In complete agreement there Ang.

[Blerpa]

Re: Force India - Lance Stroll Sr. and partners have paid 90 million dollars to cover the team debts. Now, normally, there would be a trial and then finally the money would be awarded to the creditors but the finance would be blocked for months or even years before the end of the trial; in a brilliant move Lance Stroll Sr. already paid or is going to pay (middle of October, circa) the creditors almost in full with his own money so to make things go forward, he will be eventually repaid of his expenses as soon as the trial ends.
Hats off to him, I must say. If only his son was as brilliant driving as he is in trying to resolve economical matters...

Meanwhile Albon, the thai driver currently second in the F2 standings, is gossiped to be Kyvat's teammate next season in Toro Rosso... if Helmut Marko manages to severe his ties with Nissan, with which the young driver signed recently a contract.
He will replace Hartley whom basically no one in the team wants anymore at the driving wheel.

In Formula E Mahindra Racing did not renew Heidfeld and promising driver Rosenqvist for the 2019, signing up a solid new team couple in Pascal Werhlein and Jerome D'Ambrosio.

[Freude am Fahren]

... Renault failed attempt in the turbo era.

To fail first, first you must fail.

[Blerpa]

A little note on Vandoorne in Formula E with team HWA: he was contacted about the project in September... directly by phone by Toto Wolff who offered him the seat.
HWA, the german team involved in FE and racing also in DTM (it just won the 2018 in the famous german GT series), has direct ties with Mercedes.
Food for thoughts.

[FaultyMario]

I think Vandoorne is good enough for F1, maybe better than Sainz. 'tis a crying shame that he ain't got a seat for next year.

[JoeW]

I am telling you that Formula E will be the new Formula 1 in the future. Eventually internal combustion engines will be passe' and electric technologies will be the new primary technology and propulsion standard. Not in the next 10yrs but possibly in the next 20-30yrs.


I also predict the art of shifting will die a slow death as electrics come to the fore. F1 already uses paddles...other series will follow suit as younger, newer drivers have no cars to learn from as the stick shift and clutch quickly fades away. Many new performance cars aren't even offered in a stick. Just paddles or a sequential push/pull lever.

Sad days ahead as we will basically be watching human piloted RC Cars...how long before they decide all driving is too dangerous, self driving cars are the norm, no one knows how to drive and racing is gone completely...then it will truly be RC Car racing.

Not in my lifetime I hope...but it's coming.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I think Vandoorne is good enough for F1, maybe better than Sainz. 'tis a crying shame that he ain't got a seat for next year.

After few seasons with Alonso, Vandoorne has proven that he's not the next Hamilton I guess.

[Blerpa]

I also predict the art of shifting will die a slow death as electrics come to the fore. F1 already uses paddles...other series will follow suit as younger, newer drivers have no cars to learn from as the stick shift and clutch quickly fades away. Many new performance cars aren't even offered in a stick. Just paddles or a sequential push/pull lever.

In Europe everyone and her dog drives stick, still it's rare in here to use auto. Also, at least in Italy, you must drive a stick to pass the car driving license: stick is mandatory.
Also, in F1 they do still shift on their own... the upshifting and downshifting automated programmable gear changes have been banned some years go after a short life.

And actually I'm quite in favour of self driving cars on the roads.
With that said, Formula E is a different beast than F1 but quite some spectacle. And that's exactly because they are directing it AS a spectacle. Entertainment (not as idiotic as Nascar, let me say just to be polemic once) before motor racing.
It also has in quite some manufacturers either by direct involvment with their own team (Audi, Jaguar...) or with sponsored teams (like HWA with Mercedes and so on).
Add to that quite an interesting mix of young and seasoned drivers and you got a solid series (I rank it as interesting as F2, *almost*).
And look at the new Gen 2 car: it is amazing and futuristic. That's what I want to see. Open wheeler? Closed Prototype? Barchetta? I don't give a damn, that shit looks like a gorgeous anime-like sci-fi beast!

[JoeW]

Well I’m jealous Europe still uses manual more than anything. It’s not quite dead yet!

F1 doesn’t use a manual transmission, it’s a paddle shifter right? Or you thought I said F1 was automatic...when I meant paddle shifter, just manually operated.

Still, eventually the art of driving as we know it will boil down to something close to RC racing.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Lewis Hamilton mastered the art of R/C racing before F1 you know.

Technology is just a tool, sometimes it’s okay to just let certain things go... racing isn’t about being nostalgic but about pushing to the limit. If the stick works, cool. If paddles work better, why not?

If you’re really faster than rest, you’ll be faster regardless what you’re driving...

[FaultyMario]

You guys make it seem like Coulthard driving the CVT Williams was a good thing.

:(

[JoeW]

Well not exactly but I hear you. I’m inclined to think someone who has mastered three pedals is a better driver than someone who only has to use two pedals. Nowadays people grow up having never experienced the lack of ABS, TCS, power steering and other amenities. So I have a little more respect for the old schoolers who had shitty tires, 900hp and very little downforce.

I also respect the athleticism of today’s drivers who have to undergo 5gs of cornering and braking loads for 2hrs straight while keeping laser focused on hitting apexes.

But watching some older footage is super cool.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Anyway, I have to admit Senna/Prost's MP4/4 was, and probably will forever be, the ultimate F-1 car!

Still, I have no doubt if current day drivers had to race using that kind of equipment now, they'll be able to adapt and learn and be able to approach Senna's or Prost's lap times.

Okay, maybe youngsters like Max won't ever be able to learn to drive stick? ;)

[JoeW]

My sister in law owns an old Jeep. I am going to teach my son how to drive on that. He’s 13 now so I’ll probably take him out pretty soon.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Didn't you have an old 911?

[FaultyMario]

The last F1 car with three pedals was probably the one McLaren ran in 98, and two of those pedals were for braking.

[JoeW]

Yeah I sold the 911 when the wife got pregnant.

Two kids now...2002 Expedition and 2011 4Runner in the driveway.

Miss the 911 dearly. 2100lbs, 210hp at the wheels, no ABS and no PS.

[Rare White Ape]

F1 cars still have clutches, just sayin’

The way they’re operated is bonkers and awesome as well. Two clutch levers, one on each side of the steering wheel.

Edit: here’s a good rundown on these clutches. It’s for sim racing but it gives you a good idea of the concept.

https://youtu.be/yTp5pYETZpQ

[JoeW]

Yeah but they are just for starting.

[Blerpa]

Williams wants Ocon but has no money to pay him (his fee is rumoured to be around 4 millions of euro per season), so it is still toying with either Sirotkin or Kubica (he got some sponsors) alongside Russell.
Toro Rosso is going to take Albon... rumours say he will have to perform in the first six races of 2019 to be sure to race the rest of the season.
If he will underperform Werhlein is going to be on Helmut Marko's phone right away. Or so the gossip says.

Meanwhile Mclaren got a surprising Coca Cola sponsorship till the end of the season. It may continue in next season.
And Williams is losing Martini sponsorship by the end of the season.

[JoeW]

Wowzers.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I don't understand what Coca-cola is thinking. Why would they choose to be black with their logo and on a car that runs near the back!

Ferrari is the obvious choice. Haas is the next obvious choice.

Maybe they're just being cheap... testing F1 waters for now...

[JoeW]

Seeing KFC on TR is kinda funny.

[SportWagon]

Lewis Hamilton was on The Daily Show with Trevor Noah last night (October 18, 2018). Strange, they discussed how little-known F1 is in the United States, and actually mentioned NASCAR by name, although not their sponsor-affiliation-of-the-year. Couldn't they have just said "stock car racing"?

Even stranger, I think they only alluded to Ayrton Senna, and did not mention him by name.

[FaultyMario]

I don't think the new McLaren...

http://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dp4WbRLWoAES6AW.jpg

... is the same team as the Old McLaren.

http://media.gettyimages.com/photos/michael-andretti-ron-dennis-mclarenford-mp48-grand-prix-of-san-marino-picture-id892088972?s=612x612

[JoeW]

Vettel gets 3 place grid penalty for red flag violation. So lame.

[JoeW]

What
A
Fucking
Race!

Amazing!

I think Kimi cracked a smile!

[FaultyMario]

Magnussen and Ocon have been DSQ from the USGP. Consuming in excess of 105 kilos of fuel the cause for both.

Perez becomes 8th, Hartley 9th and Ericsson 10th.

[JoeW]

One of the best races I’ve seen in awhile. Kimi holds out, Max runs another brilliant race starting in the back and holds off Hamilton and Vettel passes Bottas at the end to push the championship back one more race.

Max could have won this one legitimately without the 18th place start. Going to say his tire management skills are the best in field. He has milked some pretty crazy lap counts from his tires while staying competitive and on the radio saying they still feel good.

Damn Ricciardo...he must have found the cursed idol of kiwi kiwi on his last summer vacation.

And I understand why Vettel needed to get by Ricciardo early but dude, just get him on the straight where Ferrari could blow by him without incident. Vettel is his own worst enemy lately.

[FaultyMario]

And I understand why Vettel needed to get by Ricciardo early but dude, just get him on the straight where Ferrari could blow by him without incident. Vettel is his own worst enemy lately.

Seems to me the contact wasn't that bad, it's Vettel's overreaction that put him ass first. He would have normally gotten thrown out of line and lost one or two places, but he did some crazy footwork that sent the car into a needless spin.

[JoeW]

It looked like he went in too hot. You can see him fighting the steering wheel trying to keep it on line but he went into Ricciardo and like you said, he just overreacted on the throttle and blew it.

[CudaMan]

So much happened in the race, but as I recall Vettel put himself in that position by outbraking himself after pretty much completing the pass at the end of the back straight.

Intense race. I was pulling for Kimi from the formation lap, so it was especially nerve wracking for me. I think Kimi got happier standing on the podium seeing the Ferrari boys in such high spirits. I loved his smug grin and sunglasses. Only Kimi.

When Kimi stayed out under VSC and Hamilton came out not far behind at all I thought Ferrari had thrown another one away. And with 10 laps to go I thought no way he can hold on to his tires with good pace till the end with either/both Max and Lewis applying pressure.

Grosjean wasn't thinking ahead when he released the brakes, and caused himself (and Leclerc) a whole lot of pain. Sometimes I don't know why he's had the staying power he has had in F1. Does he have big money backing we don't know about?


So lame.
Did anyone else read this in Ziltoid's voice? :lol:

[FaultyMario]

Are aero cars that easy to spin, Cuda, or are we correct in thinking that Vettel's doing the stuff that's drilled into young drivers' heads not to do?

[JoeW]

I think Kimi owes Max a beer. And maybe vice versa when Kimi held up Hamilton earlier in the race.

I have to give it to Hamilton. He tried to make moves but did it very maturely and intelligently without throwing it away by doing something stupid. He wanted to close it out this weekend but realized it's not worth pulling a Vettel and losing a ton of points.

[CudaMan]

Are aero cars that easy to spin, Cuda, or are we correct in thinking that Vettel's doing the stuff that's drilled into young drivers' heads not to do?

I haven't driven anything quite like that (LMPC was the closest), but I can see how it's happening to him. It looks like every time in the past few months that Vettel has spun from contact he has had forward weight transfer at that moment. I think he gets panicky then and doesn't realize there may be small things he can do to come off better in side by side contact.

[Crazed_Insanity]

That's twice... with the other RB... slightly contacting them from the inside of a turn... and then spin?!?!?!?

Maybe Adrian Newey designed some sort of strange vortex generator that caused Vettel's car to lose downforce of his rear wing during turns... which resulted in sudden lost of rear grip.

One could blame the contact on Vettel, but I think the subsequent spins were most likely caused by the car itself... not really driver error. Maybe it's just not a good idea to get to close to the RBs even side by side... The lost of downforce was probably why Vettel kept on misjudging his overtakes... he thought he could make the pass, but he always end up sliding into the RB cars instead...

I dunno. It's just so odd that this is repeating.

[Yobbo NZ]

There's a vid on F1.com of Hartley carving through the carnage on the first lap, can't link it properly on here though.
I'm just happy he beat Gasley, even with a damaged floor.

[CudaMan]

It's not aero causing Vettel to spin. He's already got the rear end light at the moment of impact. His front tire hits the sidepod (ie middle) of another car. Other car is stable, Vettel's front gets a push inward and the back wants to keep going. What amazed me was how Verstappen kept it under control at Spoon when Vettel and he touched tires. Max is very good at coming off better when rubbing is racing.

[SkylineObsession]

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.cutting-through-the-carnage-onboard-with-hartley-for-a-crazy-first-lap-in.XicmNyhIk0WieGmswYmSo.html

Yeah they don't seem to allow external linking.

Was the race (to those who watched) that dusty the whole time, or just the opening few laps?

I'm glad he (Hartley) got a good position for once, wasn't taken out for once, didn't have engine troubles for once, didn't have to hold back for team orders for once and bet his team mate (again?).

[JoeW]

Regarding the Vettel incidents...I would think it’s easier for the guy on the outside to do some evasive actions to avoid spins etc because they can just track wide. The inside guy is the one who screws himself the most. If he goes in too hot (Austin) he’s fucked, if he is just dive bombing to grab a position (Suzuka) he’s fucked. So either way he’s fucked. As the outside guy you just hope to track out wide before the inside guy damages you beyond drivability.

[Rare White Ape]

What is it with you Kiwis, always on about Hartley like he’s some sort of God or something. I’m suck of it.

Anyway, how’s about Daniel Riccardo eh? What a legend.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Just like I thought Sato is a legend for getting on top of a podium. That Asian dude is fast man! You suck of that? :p

[SportWagon]

What is it with you Kiwis, always on about Hartley like he’s some sort of God or something. I’m suck of it.

Anyway, how’s about Daniel Riccardo eh? What a legend.

Did you mean Daniel Ricciardo?

[CudaMan]

Speaking of Hartley, did anyone catch his post-race interview on Sky? If not, I'll let him speak for himself!

Video link: https://photos.app.goo.gl/uURZSf6a1fWzXvV3A

[Crazed_Insanity]

He seemed kinda annoyed about his future..., but hey, if even Ocon couldn't find a ride...

I picked him as one of my fantasy F1 drivers..., even I regret picking him. Should've picked the Sauber drivers!

He's obviously not a bad driver, but not really sure he has demonstrated that he's a great one either. Series of back luck certainly didn't help.

[Blerpa]

Actually... Williams is trying to get the Ocon - Russell combo: how? Mercedes is *suddenly* thinking of making it their junior team, finally.

About Vettel: it is finally showing what I've been said for years, even before Red Bull: a good driver with lacklustre racecraft.

[JoeW]

What is the major difference between a "junior" team and a team that buys components from a major team. So what are the perks of being a Sauber to Ferrari as opposed to being a component buyer like Haas or McLaren etc?

[FaultyMario]

Speaking of Hartley, did anyone catch his post-race interview on Sky? If not, I'll let him speak for himself!

Video link: https://photos.app.goo.gl/uURZSf6a1fWzXvV3A

I can't make out what Lazenby says at the end.

[Blerpa]

What is the major difference between a "junior" team and a team that buys components from a major team. So what are the perks of being a Sauber to Ferrari as opposed to being a component buyer like Haas or McLaren etc?

Money from the main team and basically Sauber will be a Ferrari 2 or if you prefer something like Toro Rosso for Red Bull.

Oh, do you remember I told you to keep note of the young estonian Juri Vips? He ended 4th in the final standings of Euro F3 and seemingly Helmut Marko did listen to me since he is in talks to put him under contract for Red Bull.

[Yobbo NZ]

What is it with you Kiwis, always on about Hartley like he’s some sort of God or something. I’m suck of it.

Anyway, how’s about Daniel Riccardo eh? What a legend.

Oh don't be a deckhead, go put some more shrimps on the barbie and check out that knife while you're there 😉

[JoeW]

So just money? For what? More parts/development/driver salaries? Seems like there should be more to being a Junior team.


Juri Vips just sounds like a dream name for an Estonian. Looks awesome in print too.

[Blerpa]

So just money? For what? More parts/development/driver salaries? Seems like there should be more to being a Junior team.

You missed the part where I said it's going to be like Ferrari 2.

[JoeW]

I saw but I guess I was hoping for more details on the interactions between the two.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Considering we now limit testing, having additional ‘teams’ means one could gather more test data within the same time frame.

[CudaMan]

I can't make out what Lazenby says at the end.

"Oh dear" followed by something about the pressure seeming to get to Hartley.

[Yobbo NZ]

Seems to be making him a drive harder and be a bit more agressive behind the wheel.

[JoeW]

I imagine that is a tough line to cross but it must be crossed to be great. Going from the timid new guy who doesn't want to break the shiny multi million dollar car that the 200 person crew designed and built from the ground up...to the aggressive race driver who will go wheel to wheel with the best to prove himself worthy of that shiny new vehicle custom made just for him.


That is definitely some serious responsibility on your shoulders.

[FaultyMario]

Same problem as Guti. Too nice for F1.

You do kindof have to be a dick to fit in.

[SkylineObsession]

We only harp on about Hartley cos we're easily excited, a country of only 5 million people having athletes in the top elite sports in the world. :hard: And sometimes at the top of those sports. Can't let the Aussies have all the limelight from this part of the world. ;)

It's good that he got to try F1 finally, since not many get a second chance to try that sport, but i think he's got a better future in sportscar racing like he was doing prior. Or at least in a better/faster/more reliable F1 car.

[FaultyMario]

I still stand by dick.


comment.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Damon Hill and Mika Hakkinen weren’t very big dicks...

Kimi’s Got a pretty cool dick too...

But yeah, if you want to be a repeating overwhelming driver champ, being a fucking dick is probably necessary...

[racerfink]

Ricciardo somewhat miffed after power unit failure.
https://www.news.com.au/sport/motorsport/formula-one/daniel-ricciardo-punched-a-wall-in-anger-after-us-grand-prix-retirement/news-story/43dcd2e266239245b80a0d7e8e5afd7f

[racerfink]

And some insight into why Ferrari had some advantage again.

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/139578/mercedes-changed-wheel-rims-to-avoid-protest-risk

[Crazed_Insanity]

Oh wow. Slight rim modification means possibly handing the win to Kimi?

[Freude am Fahren]

https://d2d0b2rxqzh1q5.cloudfront.net/sv/1.67/dir/419/image/419d20585866c2d00dd9f94ef2482366.jpg

Where does the air flow to? I suppose there is an inner and out layer to the wheel, and this air going in between?

[racerfink]

From a poster on the Grassroots Motorsports Magazine forum-

“The Mercedes wheel had holes for airflow between the inner side flowing to the outer side and those fins or bumps on the wheel acted as radiator fins. Mercedes showed the FIA that the air flowing out was not for aerodynamic reasons or benefit but Ferrari isn't convinced. Red Bulls version was clearly to create an outwash for aerodynamic reasons and was banned.”

[Crazed_Insanity]

Interesting that high altitude race in Mexico evaporated Mercedes and Ferrari’s advantages...

Max could’ve became the youngest pole sitter erasing Vettels record! Com’on Dan, why couldn’t you pick another time to bounce back so superbly!!! Hope his Renault will last this time.

[JoeW]

Hey RB front row lockout for the first time in turbo hybrid era.

Looking for a RB 1/2 finish...crossing fingers.

I am certain they will sit down together and talk about how they are going to get to turn one without letting Hamilton or Vettel through...or taking each other out.

[FaultyMario]

Max is such a fucking sore loser. Good on Dan.

[Crazed_Insanity]

What did he do? Haven’t seen qualifying, just saw results on the web...

[FaultyMario]

Max had his best Q3 time early in the session, didn't improve on his second out, Dan pipped him by .026. Max then rambled about car problems:


The whole qualifying was crap. Again the same problem as in FP2. Engine braking not like I wanted, just rear locking the car

Instead of graciously keeping his rage to himself, he delivered blame to the team who are responsible for giving him a car that "is not crap" and does not "lock the rear".

In this day and age it's obvious Dan spent the night studying the telemetry and engineer notes. And he beat Max to his last (realistic) chance at the Youngest polesitter record -currently held by Vettel at 21 years and 72 days, Verstappen being 21 years and 28 days old-.

[JoeW]

He enthusiastically congratulated Dan then when he was interviewed he was clearly disappointed and basically said he was having continued issues with the car but would drive it to the best of his ability tomorrow.

Barring any weird issues I’m giving Max the win tomorrow.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Barring any weird issues I’m giving Max the win tomorrow.

Dunno man.

You know Max is gonna go for it... and Dan really has nothing to lose...

They just might collide again.

[FaultyMario]

They've been read the riot act by Horner, apparently. Australian is 2, young gun is 1. Multi 21 again?

[JoeW]

I said barring any weird issues...

[JoeW]

The F1 app has video of side by side qualifying laps of Max and Dan saying “How Daniel beat Max to Pole”.

Seriously? The human eye can barely tell .026. It’s not like you can actually see the difference. I did watch it and Max was well ahead in the first sectors but you can tell his car isn’t handling or engine braking the same in the last parts of the lap.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Just saw the replay comparison, Dan was behind most of the lap and then somehow surges ahead... or max made some small error... anyway, very impressive drives!

As for the upcoming race, I think it’d be really ‘weird’ if not contacts were made and if Dans engine lasted thru the whole race! ;)

[JoeW]

The anticipation is killing me. That start is going to be a perfect storm of chaos and carnage with 2 slower cars leading faster cars into turn one.

[JoeW]

Yaaasssss! Dominating in a straight fight!

[Crazed_Insanity]

Renault seems to do well in high altitude, even Mclaren did pretty well considering how it usually finishes...

Mercedes seemed much worse off than usual.

One would think turbo engines won’t be affected much by altitude, but apparently Mercedes engines need thicker air to cool down...

[JoeW]

It’s a tire wear issue as well.

Just to add...I very much appreciate the front wing mounted camera on the Ferrari. The halo cameras are stupid as fuck. I could watch the whole race from Vettels front wing mount and be happy.

One last thing...I just noticed this today for the first time. I had no idea you could use DRS after getting by the person in front of you. So if there are two DRS zones, once you past the detection point you can still use it in the second zone if you get past the driver in the first zone. I saw Daniel do it today for the first time. He got past Hamilton in the first zone and was able to continue to use it in the second zone.

[FaultyMario]

Talk about an anticlimax.

:random:

[JoeW]

It was a 71 lap climax for me ;) Slight downer when Daniel's cursed car exploded again...but I got over it quickly as it wasn't unexpected.

[FaultyMario]

Really?

They lapped Hulkenberg!

It makes me wonder why in the day and age of Safer and Tekpro we can't have nice circuits. There was no need to butcher the esses, it was the one section where drivers made mistakes and tended to lose momentum and focus. I'm sure there's a way to implement an overtaking opportunity at the end of that complex, it is utterly boring as it is. I mean, the RBRs where able to keep pace on the long straight because of their dominance of show corners allowed them to "abuse" the exit of the stadium and hit the gas much earlier than their rivals.

In the original esses, each of the three first parts had a widening exit, which compromised the entry into the sod part, so there was a chance to not optimize speed thru there, opening up the chance for an attack after those corners. But the FIA tilked them up, because safety.

[Crazed_Insanity]

What are you talking about, they lapped Bottas! Lapped the best of rest Hulk 2 times!

Are you just unhappy because Perez didn't end up doing well? :p

[JoeW]

So in the blame game of Danny’s car, if it was indeed a clutch failure as Horner alluded to, is that a Renault issue or RBR issue? And if it is a hydraulic failure, is that Renault or RBR?

[FaultyMario]

Red Bull's.

The clutch is from a third party, AP. However the parts that failed were the hydraulic actuators, which are designed and made in-house.

[FaultyMario]

What are you talking about, they lapped Bottas! Lapped the best of rest Hulk 2 times!

Are you just unhappy because Perez didn't end up doing well? :p

Pérez is not a favorite of mine. My nationalistic alligeances lie with Guti, fastest Mexican I saw in my lifetime (too bad he can be elbowed out of competition and needs a car perfectly setup to his liking to deliver), and now with the bubbly Pato O'Ward; who I hope can move fast enough in Indycar to have a shot at F1 unlike, his closest predecessor, Castroneves.

And yeah, I hate this F1 + F1.5 set of rules and the terrible job at reacconditioning historic circuits. It was possible to keep the esses, it was possible. They chose not because Tilke is inept at the design of increasing radius corners and fast speed esses. His only decent corners are the Double Apex at Sepang's 7-8 and Istambul Park's T8, but both required acres and acres of real estate. Imagine the crap he'd show up with if he had to design Montecarlo.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Renault or Red Bull? Whatever you do, don't you blame it on you, just blame it on the Rain man!

In all honesty, I don't see how one could blame the powerplant for clutch or hydraulic failures.

Carlos had steering issue... so I doubt Renault engines should be blamed. But who knows what's really going on...

[FaultyMario]

The clutch actuators have been a problem for RBR before. They haven't gotten on top of things.

[FaultyMario]

You know what, I wouldn't write off Williams for 2019 yet.

[Blerpa]

Ericsson in Indycar next year with Schmidt Petersen.
Kubica may be Ferrari's next simulator driver, taking the seat vacated by Kyvat. Giovinazzi would still remains Maranello's reserve driver.

[JoeW]

Just saw a stat online regarding car retirements.

Ricciardo has retired 8 times this season.
Hamilton has retired 8 times since replacing Schumacher at Mercedes in 2013.
Bottas has retired 8 times in his career.

Crazy.

[XHawkeye]

Researching a bit deeper, it seems that Red Bull uniquely do not run the AP clutch this year, instead opting for a ZF made unit. Although, the failures aren't obviously within the clutch itself, but perhaps the RBR installation or control hardware/software. @ScarbsTech (https://twitter.com/ScarbsTech/status/1057253238985162752)

[Blerpa]

Alexander Albon official at Toro Rosso alongside Danil Kyvat.
McLaren takes Sergio Sette Camara, actual teammate of Lando Norris in F2, as tester and development driver.
Rumours of Kubica *AND* Werhlein together for Ferrari simulator drive seats.

[JoeW]

Kvyat. Not many people get kicked out of the F1 club and let back in again.

[FaultyMario]

He is pretty fast. And he has some financial backers, right?

[JoeW]

I find it odd that when they have coverage of the pit guys looking at the official team monitors that it’s basically the live feed from Sky. So you see Toto watching the monitor which is now live footage of himself.

Seems like the team monitors would show something more team specific or exclusive. It’s like they are just sitting there watching the same show on TV that I am.

[Freude am Fahren]

I think they usually have a number of feeds, including the on-board for their drivers. Also, given the delay, they usually cut away just as the shot in the monitors changes to the one looking at the monitors.

But really, many times the best way to find out what is going on with the race is the broadcast, even with all their telemetry and stuff.

edit: I'm thinking of the Pitwall, more than the garage where Toto and the crew would be. They probably have fewer options in there.

[Blerpa]

Pietro Fittipaldi, the 22 year old Miami-based brasilian driver, is the new official Haas F1 team tester.

[JoeW]

Well holy shit what a fantastic race! I was getting winded just watching it.

Great moves and great racing all around.

All that awesomeness aside...I keep hearing RBR talk about how much more power the Honda is showing but then I see TR cars getting passed like they’re standing still on the straights. So I’m not seeing it unless the TR package is just that much shittier?

[Crazed_Insanity]

Well, TR finished ahead of the fastest nonRB-Renault...

[FaultyMario]

Well holy shit what a fantastic race! I was getting winded just watching it.

Great moves and great racing all around.

All that awesomeness aside...I keep hearing RBR talk about how much more power the Honda is showing but then I see TR cars getting passed like they’re standing still on the straights. So I’m not seeing it unless the TR package is just that much shittier?

You tend to look shit when instead of competing you are testing. The big surprise here was the times Gasly and Hartley were hitting on sector three, a clear measure of power; they were on par with Mercedes customers and ahead of the Renaults.

[JoeW]

Nice. I probably should have checked sector times.

Well then I think Max could challenge for top spot next year :)

Should be good fun with LeClerc coming up.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I am one of the fanboi, but going back to Ocon, I don't feel that he did anything wrong... I think Max just cut him off a little too early and resulted in the clash... it's more of a racing incident I think..., but is there a rule saying that lapped cars should never try to race the leader to unlap itself?

[JoeW]

Seeing as how the stewards gave Ocon the stiffest penalty available before race DQ, yes Ocon was at fault.

From all the info I have read you can certainly unlap yourself. But you should do it in the safest manner possible...especially do not attempt an outbrake maneuver going into a turn. If you feel you are being impeded by the lead driver then you should radio your team, who then contacts Charlie, who then tells the lead driver to move aside. But under no circumstances should Ocon have dove in there on the leader of the race. The lead driver should not have to check his mirrors for a backmarker to dive on him. And THEN, after Max had basically shut him out past turn 1, he definitely should not have continued to try and fight for turn 2.r

The lead driver really shouldn't have to worry about any threats from behind except the 2nd place driver.

And let the drama ensue...

[FaultyMario]

Of course you don’t want to cause an incident. But in those scenarios you give each other space. It’s as simple as that. It’s so simple to give each other space. You can never assume that the person is not up your inside because he’s a backmarker and he’s going to back off. You’ve got to assume, you’ve got to acknowledge the fact that he may be there so I’m going to leave extra space. Because actually he’s in a different race to me. That’s my opinion about it. So from my seat it felt like it wasn’t 100 percent one side.

I, for one, welcome our new British-Grenadian overlord.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I do agree with Lewis on what he said. Hope Max learned his lessons to not throw another race away like that.

However, given that Ocon's maneuver's biggest benefactor was Lewis Hamilton, he probably should've kept his mouth shut. :p

I have a sneaking suspicion that Ocon was covertly ordered to slow Max down a bit so Lewis could catch up. It really didn't make sense for someone who's a lap down to race the leader.

So I suppose mission accomplished. Hopefully Mercedes remembers that and will reward such loyalty.

Anyway, it also made little sense to me for Max to not give any room and just assume the backmarker would choose to go off course rather than crashing into you...

Ocon got ahead of you in turn1, just let him go! If he ended up slowing you down on purpose, surely he'll be faced with a blue flag...

[JoeW]

The stewards and race announcers (formers racers themselves) disagree.

I think the only ones who agree with you are Lewis, Ocon and Otmar.

[Dicknose]

There is no rule you shouldnt do it - but its been a fairly accepted practice in pretty much every motorsport.
This was the worse case, the race result was affected by someone who wasnt involved with the pointy end.

While Max should take some responsibility Id say its 90% the lapped drivers fault - they should know better than to get involved.
So they can unlap - so what? It will make a tiny difference to their race and coming second last instead of last.
Get out of the way, stay out of the way.

That said Id give Max a race ban for the pushing afterwards - no matter what they do you shouldnt get physical with another driver. Thats a very bad look for the sport.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Ocon not being very apologetic probably further induced Max wanting to kick his ass...

As a fanboy, I’d rather not see a race ban. If a physical fight actual broke out, then maybe a race ban would be in order.

[Dicknose]

That it didnt escalate was because only one of them wanted to go on with it.
The problem is you let this go and then next time its a bigger push or worse. I think you need to send a clear message. Maybe not a race ban - maybe a grid penalty, but I think it needs something, you shouldnt let that go without penalty.

[JoeW]

Btw I just remembered the beginning of the race when the two Renault cars were side by side for almost the entire second lap until Sainz gave Hülkenberg and shove and locked his brakes. That was some good shit. I was on the edge of my seat for that one. Really just a great race overall.