Formula One 2019

[Blerpa]

Giovinazzi almost certain to be renewed for 2020 at Alfa Romeo.
Perez is official at Racing Point til 2022, alongside Stroll, obviously.

[FaultyMario]

Hamilton's reaction (https://twitter.com/F1FeederSeries1/status/1167836744529653760) to the F2 pile up.

[JoeW]

I love Albons interviews. So candid. You can tell he’s just having a blast. The descriptions he gave the interviewers of his on track battles were just hilarious. Wish more drivers had more wide eyed fun and smiles out there. He is a true inspiration to any up and coming kids looking for an example.

[FaultyMario]

His pass on Ricciardo was the move of the day, for me.

[Rare White Ape]

Wow, what an amazing race. Hell of a weekend for Leclerc to collect his first win.

Albon: *chef’s kiss*

[Tom Servo]

100% on board with more interviews with Albon. That was good stuff.

[Freude am Fahren]

His pass on Ricciardo was the move of the day, for me.

Yeah that was good. Funny thing was, I don't think it went exactly how he planned. When he first went for the move from over to under, Ricciardo was going slower than I think he expected and he had to kinda correct and wait to run under him.

His little game of cat and mouse for DRS with Perez was great too, especially talking about it after. And then getting it done half in the grass. :up:

Gutted for Norris and McLaren.

[JoeW]

So there was a ridiculous crash today in the F3 race right before FP3 this morning. You guys have to see it to believe it. A car hit one of those tiny sausage curbs exiting Parabolica and launched itself over the wall into the catch fence. Unbelievable.

[JoeW]

What a clusterfuck of a qualifying session. They all look like amateurs...what an embarrassment for the fans who paid to watch.

[Crazed_Insanity]

So there was a ridiculous crash today in the F3 race right before FP3 this morning. You guys have to see it to believe it. A car hit one of those tiny sausage curbs exiting Parabolica and launched itself over the wall into the catch fence. Unbelievable.
Couldn’t find any actual footage of the deadly crash at Spa, haven’t seen the crash you’re talking about here...

But I get the feeling that perhaps these cars have some sort of aerodynamic flaw which caused them to be very sensitive at high speeds?

[Crazed_Insanity]

What a clusterfuck of a qualifying session. They all look like amateurs...what an embarrassment for the fans who paid to watch.

Damned if you lead and tow the rest of the field to grid positions ahead of you and damned if you drive like you’re driving ms daisy and run out of time...

[JoeW]

Couldn’t find any actual footage of the deadly crash at Spa, haven’t seen the crash you’re talking about here...

But I get the feeling that perhaps these cars have some sort of aerodynamic flaw which caused them to be very sensitive at high speeds?

No he hit one the little curbs.

The Spa crash is on YouTube from a few different angles. Just search F2 Spa crash.

https://youtu.be/PDhTVnqkp7g

[Crazed_Insanity]

That little curb has always been there, right?

Have we seen such launches before?

Reminds me of the Webber crash at Valencia. His high nose RB just went over the wheel of the car in front and then flipped him in the air... in this case, clearly something beneath the chassis was too low and caused the car to take off?

Anyway, also checked out more of the spa crash. Alesi started it and looked like his front wheel was wobbly just like Max’s car... and crash at about the same spot?

So the death and injury happened only because they were trying to avoid him? Sucks man... :(

[XHawkeye]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EDxkKwzWsAEIWTk.jpg

My 312 T4 #Ferrari crew are ready! Will be the loudest car on track this weekend! #ItalianGP (https://twitter.com/JScheckter/status/1169920146326077442)

[Rare White Ape]

That little curb has always been there, right?

Have we seen such launches before?

Nope and nope. And it was NOT caused by aerodynamics.

The kerb has been removed now.

[Freude am Fahren]

Yeah, apparently hitting a huge curb at 200kph launches a car into the air, who would have though.

That curb was so dangerous, I couldn't believe it was there in the first place.

[Crazed_Insanity]

If it’s new, they must had a good reason for adding that?

[FaultyMario]

LeClerc's drive today was one for the books.

Mighty impressed by Perez as well. I wished they had shown more of his defense against Verstappen on TV, there were a couple of times when the Red Bull was shown within .150 and then Perez had a half a second gap.

[JoeW]

Agreed. I think those pink cars have a ton of top speed so I imagine it was like Ham or Bot trying to get around Lec.

Fun race though. Vet bins it again under pressure...wtf.

Good to see Ric and Hulk up there for a change although Albon almost got Hulk at the end.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Vettel got a penalty but wonder why stroll didn’t get one for doing the exact same thing to Albon.

Anyway, seeing Renault doing well here pretty much proved that engine manufacturers have pretty much all caught up to each other...

It’s a shame Haas can’t figure out how to put their powerful Ferrari engines to good use.

Anywho, very happy for Charlie boy and Ferrari!

I guess it’s now obvious Vettel doesn’t want to become the next barrichello... at this rate, can’t see how’ll remain with Ferrari...

[edit] ok just read stroll was handed a drive thru penalty too... that seems fairer I guess.

[samoht]

Quite frustrating watching for me, Leclerc barged Hamilton off the road and then later cut a corner and somehow got away without having to yield the place. After that, Hamilton had used up his tyres and couldn't keep up the pressure any longer. For the stewards to say, "yes you wrongly pushed your rival onto the grass, but you can still keep the lead over him", seems a bit bizarre to me - the black and white flag acknowledges the unfairness of the driving without doing anything to rectify it.

I think leniency has its place when it comes to technical infringements like driving the wrong side of a bollard, crossing the white line leaving the pits etc as long as they aren't dangerous - no-one would want the result of a race changed over something like that. However when it's one on one wheel to wheel, to be kind to one driver is unavoidably to be cruel to the other, and it doesn't seem justifiable to me.

Apart from that, great drive by Leclerc to keep both Mercs behind, when both had tyre advantage at various times.

Overall I felt this race showed up the difference between #1 and #2 drivers. #1 drivers like Leclerc and Hamilton fought hard for the lead. #2 driver Bottas couldn't press home his tyre advantage at all at the end. And #2 driver Vettel drove like a total rookie. Last year here he spun off while side by side with Hamilton, this year he went one better and spun off all alone, then compounded his error by rejoining dangerously, damaging his car and getting a penalty from which there was no way back - once you're a lap down on the leaders, you're stuffed.

I did start to wonder, is there a problem where drivers, with all their safety gear, are unable to look sideways to check if the track is clear?

[dodint]

Interesting. You want subjective calls made more often but are okay with ignoring objective infractions. That is the complete opposite position of mine. I am for removing ambiguity, not promoting it for both kinds of situations.

[JoeW]

I have a sneaking suspicion that LeClerc is gaining himself a reputation for dirty driving. You can tell that Ham and the announcers weren’t too pleased with his driving. But there seemed to be a mood that it wouldn’t be prudent to criticize the golden boy during a win at Monza.

But I can see how an evil presence could be hiding behind a nice LeClerc.

[samoht]

Interesting. You want subjective calls made more often but are okay with ignoring objective infractions. That is the complete opposite position of mine. I am for removing ambiguity, not promoting it for both kinds of situations.

Yeah... what I care about is keeping sport being a competition of skill between drivers/teams. If the infraction doesn't give a driver an advantage, then penalising it unnecessarily spoils the competition of skill, because the best person may no longer win if they got a penalty for crossing a white line. On the other hand if one driver gains an unfair advantage, then redress is demanded to preserve fairness between the drivers. If you let drivers shove each other off the track, it's no longer a contest of racing skill. So it's not about subjective vs objective for me, it's about gaining an unfair advantage or not.

In this case the subjective element of Leclerc's non-penalty is moot; the stewards decided it was wrong by showing the black and white flag, but decided not to penalise it anyway.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I think Charlie boy’s lost his innocence after being raped of his 1st win by Max... if Max wasn’t penalized then, why should Leclerc be now? Perhaps FIA is paying him back for the same unfairness back then?

I thought it was cool that they let them race like that... handing out warnings yet without meddling altering results too much. Leclerc heeded the warnings too right? I just don’t think what he did was so overly bad..., but I have to admit he was pushing it.

There probably were political reasons too. Who dared to penalize Leclerc and hand Hamilton the win in Italy? Might cause a riot!!!

[samoht]

I have a sneaking suspicion that LeClerc is gaining himself a reputation for dirty driving. You can tell that Ham and the announcers weren’t too pleased with his driving. But there seemed to be a mood that it wouldn’t be prudent to criticize the golden boy during a win at Monza.

But I can see how an evil presence could be hiding behind a nice LeClerc.

I see it differently. Leclerc tried to play very clean in Austria, and was shoved off the track by Max and lost the win. Ever since then, he's been deliberately more assertive on track - not because he is inherently dirty, just because he's learned what are now the rules of the game, and is playing to win within them. I don't think he can be criticised both ways - unless you see a clear distinction between the incidents?

[JoeW]

No not at all but that’s how it starts. Give them an inch ad they’ll take a mile. Once he starts thinking that this is how it should be done every race then it’s too late.

Smack em on the wrist early or you’re training them to drive like that.

[Crazed_Insanity]

So do you believe Max should be penalized for pushing Leclerc off the track?

[JoeW]

Back in Austria? No. But that’s a totally different situation.

If it were Max sticking his elbows out in front of Hamilton today I’m sure all of you guys would have jumped all over him for dirty driving.

[dodint]

We will never know. He was too busy starting dead last and still running into someone before T1.

[JoeW]

Quiet you!

[Rare White Ape]

We will never know. He was too busy starting dead last and still running into someone before T1.

:snap:

[FaultyMario]

It's funny because he managed to whack Pérez at the neckbreaking speed of 30 mph.

[Crazed_Insanity]

For now, it appears that Albon is the way better driver thru traffic.

If Albon could also manage to win races, then I guess Kvyat and Gasley’s careers are over.

[FaultyMario]

Rich Energy and Haas F1 are no longer bound by the laws of man.

I expect no less than a the effigy of a bald-headed eagle gracing the nosecone of the VF19 come Singapore. I mean, the car is shit already, so why not make it look glorious?

[Crazed_Insanity]

What a mess! I guess lacking the funding to develop their cars properly was probably one of the reasons why they couldn't figure out their tire issue?

Anyway, can't believe all the drama Rich Energy has caused in such a short period of time...

[FaultyMario]

Like, seriously you guys!

https://i.blogs.es/d201d3/eagle987_1998/1366_2000.jpg

[Rare White Ape]

Rich Energy says they're looking at a ‘revised global strategy’ due to a ‘corporate restructuring process’.

It’s probably corporate speak that can be translated to ‘we’re haemorrhaging money and not making enough to cover it so we have to fire some people and pull our sponsorships’.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I like that design..., but unfortunately with modern day F-1 car noses..., such design will probably make the car look more like a duck!

[XHawkeye]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ED7EwX_X4AEgxUs.jpg

Personally... I thought that was the best Q3 ever! (https://twitter.com/LandoNorris/status/1170589297495486464)

[FaultyMario]

Sickening accident in the F2 race, Renault's Anthoine Hubert went off in Raidillon and as he was pushed back from the initial impact towards the track but still in the runoff area an out of control Juan Manuel Correa (Sauber) T-boned him.

Correa was put in an induced coma after he was diagnosed with acute respiratory distress syndrome.

From the National Heart, Lung and Blood Institute (https://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/health-topics/ards):


In ARDS, infections, injuries, or other conditions cause fluid to build up in the air sacs. This prevents the lungs from filling with air and moving enough oxygen into the bloodstream.

As a result, the body's organs (such as the kidneys and brain) don't get the oxygen they need. Without oxygen, the organs may not work well or at all.

[Blerpa]

This post just to remind everyone to keep eyes on Juri Vips, as I said like one year ago, IIRC... the estonian driver is third in the standings in the F3 series and part of the Red Bull Junior Team since November 2018.

[XHawkeye]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EERz9JOWsAEyXzt.jpg

And that’s a fine 94 laps of @PaulRicardTrack completed by @sirotkin_sergey with @RenaultF1Team at the end of our first full day of 18-inch #F1 tyres. History has been made. What did you think? (https://twitter.com/pirellisport/status/1172189304199766016)

[JoeW]

I like the look but I see people talking about a closed off rim or some sort of cover? I don’t see what they mean. Maybe I’m missing something.

I’m surprised they’ve been using the balloon tires for as long as they have. Seems like such a retro thing.

[Rare White Ape]

Dang I think that looks hideous.

Maybe go up 1" rim size to start with instead, to match Indy Cars?


I’m surprised they’ve been using the balloon tires for as long as they have. Seems like such a retro thing.

So much of the chassis design has been built around the 16" wheels. The bounce of the tire even forms part of the suspension travel.

It's probably not too much to ask of the top-level millionaire chassis designers at F1 teams to suddenly change tire size, so I wonder what the resistance has been as well.

[FaultyMario]

I like the look but I see people talking about a closed off rim or some sort of cover? I don’t see what they mean. Maybe I’m missing something.


Reason being that Mercedes has figured out how to do blown axles while the rest of the field not so much. So the FIA is mandating wheel covers so that teams can't use the wheel assembly/brake ducts for aerodynamic purposes.

File under: Why F1 can't have nice things.

[FaultyMario]

So much of the chassis design has been built around the 16" wheels. The bounce of the tire even forms part of the suspension travel.

16? 13!

I think the wall of champions is going to have a few more scratches now that vibrations won't be dampened by the rubbers.

[JoeW]

Yeah the current ones are 13”. My shitty lawn mower has similar sized wheels.

So when you say covers...will the wheels on the Renault test car shown have some sort of covers? Like a hub cap? Trying to visualize what they are talking about.

[dodint]

Like this? http://www.formula1-dictionary.net/wheel_shrouds.html

From 2009:

http://www.formula1-dictionary.net/Images/wheel_shrouds_flaring.gif

[JoeW]

Oh good lord please no...

[FaultyMario]

Oh good lord please no...

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/99/Button_2009_Malaysian_GP_1.jpg

[JoeW]

That is an embarrassment. Go to all the trouble to make a nice car with cool new wheels and then put those ugly things on there.

[Blerpa]

They should be standard and totally covering the rim without any hole, any difference.
Just a flat panel, the same for everyone.
And fuck all the engineering.

Also that new tyre size look hideous.
I'd go back to 70-80's F1 tyres... small front and humongous rear ones. Just for LULZ.

[dodint]

That's actually kind of my only complaint with the new 18" tires. The rears look fine, but the fronts look terribly narrow and thus tall now; like an old carriage. It's weird. I'll get used to it and forget about it about three races in, but they look awkward to me right now.

[Rare White Ape]

They look like those skinny dummy wheels they use to wheel the cars into the transporters, or maybe even the wheels on the Mars Curiosity rover.

[XHawkeye]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EEUnhFaUUAILTeM.jpg

Championship Leader after 14 races #F1 #Formula1

[XHawkeye]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EEujBILXUAEJTNu.jpg

Big news from the Alfa Romeo Racing Store!

The new Limited Edition Kimi Räikkönen Capsule Collection is online now. Have a browse through the collection, inspired by Kimi himself, but be quick – all items are produced in limited numbers!

🛒 http://bit.ly/2kReczI #Kimi7

[Tom Servo]

Jesus, $136 for a hoodie that says "Leave me alone. I know what to do."?

[dodint]

Jesus, $136 for a limited edition hoodie that says "Leave me alone. I know what to do."?

Got u, fam.

[Rare White Ape]

I’m sure a few of us already have a Blipshift shirt that says the same thing.

[Freude am Fahren]

:lol: yep. I think they've made it in Renault, Ferrari, and Alfa colors too.

[FaultyMario]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EE6ck6WWsAUo-rB.png

Forecast says that a boring procession is expected.

[JoeW]

Qualifying will tell us the real story.

[Crazed_Insanity]

No, the race will tell us the ultimate story! :p

Albon is in the mix with the Bottas and Charlie boy! Pretty impressive. :up:

Haas is now racing with Williams. having no money sucks in F1!

[FaultyMario]

It can't be a coincidence that the 2 Ferrari customers have cars that are bad at slow speed corners.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I guess the Saubers are now infected with the same low tire temperature disease too?

[JoeW]

I think Ferrari is going to surprise this weekend. Vettel specifically.

Shit, now I’ve said it so I can’t take it back.

Edit...

I really wish Williams was just 1 second faster. Just enough to put some points on the board occasionally and some smiles on their faces from time to time.

[Crazed_Insanity]

You’re partially right... Ferrari did surprise... but with Charlie boy... so on the limit he supposedly lost control 3 times but still managed the pole lap.

Vettel is fucked.

[JoeW]

Ferrari brought the upgrades this week :)

[Crazed_Insanity]

Will they give/sell upgrades to Sauber and Haas? Or these teams will have to wait a year?

[Crazed_Insanity]

Wow! You were right! Vettel sure surprised! :D

[JoeW]

I’m a prophet!

[JoeW]

Ok now I am probably the only one who thinks this but LeClerc is getting on my nerves with his whiney bullshit. I liked him early on in the season but lately I just don’t like his attitude. He is quickly acting like he’s entitled to preferential treatment when he is a rookie on this team and only his second year in F1. Shut the fuck up and drive the car and stop worrying about what everyone else is doing.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I think he himself thought himself as a whiny bitch and is trying hard to shut himself up!

Anyway, which modern day champ never whined or felt entitled?

I’m just glad he and max are making this season more interesting. Wish their surge happened earlier to make the championship fight more interesting too.

[Freude am Fahren]

They do all do it to some degree, but yeah I'm not a huge fan of it.

He kinda has cause though. He's been screwed out of three wins by his team basically this year.

Though, while it sounded like they had an agreement of sorts before today's race, Vettel was pulling away, so it would be stupid to try and swap with Hamilton keeping close and Vettel outside of DRS range of LeClerc.

[JoeW]

I can understand if you are holding up your teammate, they tell you to let him by, and you don’t. That’s uncool.

The way Ferrari is doing business right now is really shitty. Undercutting your own team, bad strategies and poor driver management. They aren’t in contention for a championship (driver or constructors) so just let them race each other and see who wins. And if you are going to favor a driver then it needs to be Vettel. He has earned it. LeClerc is fast but he hasn’t paid his dues yet.

So either favor Vettel or let them race this year and the better driver gets the favor next season. If it’s LeClerc then he earned it. But he hasn’t earned it yet. He’s just been acting like an entitled rich boy Monagasque...which I guess is what he actually is...

[FaultyMario]

LeClerc is doing a Max, basically.

Vettel was faster on sunday. End of it.

[Blerpa]

Why Vettel should have earned it? So far this season he is doing worse than his rookie teammate, while being paid like 5x and with the worthiness of 4 championship titles on his belt he hasn't produced the results Ferrari has been expecting in the last few seasons: so why?
The only way Ferrari is doing this is because they do not want to lose Vettel in this - it would not justify Vettel's paycheck and would demoralize the spirit of the german driver.
But they are really sucking at managing this conflict.
Reminds me of Mclaren's Alonso - Hamilton situation...

LeClerc is whiny.
As we already discussed about every single F1 champion of modern era is a complainer, a whiner and an arrogant bitch: that's what it takes, to be ruthless, astute and fetch opportunities when they show to you (and in less recent eras Stirling Moss - one of the best 5 drivers in F1 history to me - was such a gentleman he lost out a championship to that arsehole called Nigel Hawthorne, as an example).
This said Vettel had a good point there: if he's so quick and entitled to the victory, he should come and get me. Same as Hamilton said some years ago in regard to Rosberg complaining, in race, that Lewis should let him pass.
Also, before someone counter reply to that: in F1 team orders are legal, so teams, and drivers themselves, are legitimated to call them to take advantage of any situation.

It is not sportmanship like? It is not always letting win who should deserve it? Well, rules are rules.
And this is akin to a footbal team playing in a beatiful style and losing 1-0 to a sucky team: style and sport expression is one thing, but the results are indicated simply by who puts one more than the other in the net.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I think JoeW is probably too macho..., Leclerc often like to express his ‘feelings’ to Ferrari over radio. That’s probably what set him off. Real men do not talk about feelings! Shut the fuck up and close the gap between you and Vettel if you want to pass!

Anyway, I think another issue is probably we fans have too much access to drivers ‘private’ conversations to the teams.

No need to judge racers by their words. It’s their actions on track that’s more important. I’m still very glad F1 has Charlie boy and mad max. :)

[Blerpa]

Actually we do not.
The team radio comms we hear are expecially selected by FIA people, usually the most salient ones; they are like a quarter of how many really happen to be exchanged by teams and drivers and... they are, half the times, misleading.
I cannot recall who said last year in here, Alan was it you?, that listening to the whole radio comms of an entire race (FIA website? Official extra services? Dunno) is very different.

I remember that same person said that Hamilton, which in the radio comms issued during the race, sounded terribly whiny all the time... well, he was actually not.
But unfortunately FIA picks up the most poignant and probably polemic ones to bank up on spectacle and engage the audience.

[FaultyMario]

Yup, the broadcast radio is to individual races what the Netflix series was to the F1 season.

[JoeW]

It’s a sad state of affairs when you retire a car during a race to save spares parts. Just pathetic.


https://youtu.be/FjYyIKkRvUU

[dodint]

In a rare instance I am in lockstep agreement with JoeW, regarding Vettel and Leclerc.

I don't see a Max comparison though. Leclerc doesn't rely on contact advance.

[JoeW]

https://youtu.be/JmzuRXLzqKk

[FaultyMario]

Correa was put in an induced coma after he was diagnosed with acute respiratory distress syndrome.

From the National Heart, Lung and Blood Institute (https://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/health-topics/ards):

Update:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EF-b-VSXYAATdy9.jpg

Lower right leg saved. Correa's got a mountain to climb in terms of rehab.

[FaultyMario]

The FIA is pussyfooting around Suzuka, and who could blame them. Right?

[Freude am Fahren]

huh?

[Blerpa]

Typhoon alert in Japan. "Hagibis" is coming.
Plan B is to run Qualify sunday morning.

[FaultyMario]

They've already canceled some support races in order to have room for re-scheduling.

[Freude am Fahren]

Oh wow. Another boat race down bit lane?

[Rare White Ape]

Just been confirmed: all on-track action is cancelled for Saturday, qualifying to take place Sunday morning.

[Alan P]

Just been confirmed: all on-track action is cancelled for Saturday, qualifying to take place Sunday morning.

Marc Gene posted on Twitter showing the conditions when Qualifying was supposed to be running. Sure it was raining but nothing serious. https://twitter.com/marc_gene/status/1182856134975078401

[FaultyMario]

I rather like the time slot.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Looks like Vettel got his groove back!

[JoeW]

We get that here quite often when Hurricanes are near. Since the future track is not entirely predictable they have to prepare for the “just in case” situation. The last hurricane that came up the Florida coast was supposed to initially cut across the state and hit us. On Friday the school board opted to close schools for Tuesday (Monday was closed for Labor Day). By the time Monday and Tuesday rolled around the the hurricane was a couple hundred miles away and we had sunny days.

But the local government had to cover their asses “in case shit” happens.

[JoeW]

Race update...

LeClerc is really getting under my skin.

And how Albon avoided discipline is beyond me. I mean damn...that was a straight up divebomb. And I love Albon but...damn. Watching the rest of the race at least 10 other times other drivers could have made similar moves at that exact place on the track but they all knew it unwise.

[FaultyMario]

It was pretty entertaining.

[FaultyMario]

And my happy face has been erased by the FIA's incompetence to let the last-lap results be the final results.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I assumed the ‘system error’ was computer glitch related... was it really FIA incompetence?

[Crazed_Insanity]

LeClerc is really getting under my skin.


Does that mean you’re not renewing his contract come next fantasy season?

[FaultyMario]

They had to move some computer systems down to one of the free garages because of the typhoon and supposedly the move was the cause of the lack of sync for some of the sensors... but, I mean, start and finish are the most basic things that a race organizer ought to do well, right?

Then the LeClerc penalty situation was pretty silly, didn't the little thing came up on the screen around lap 5 and said that "no further action" was required and then the stewards said they would review it after Verstappen retired? I'm sorry but in my perfect world penalties arise from actions that infringe regulations, not from undesirable consequences.

[JoeW]

Apparently the race end signal was given 1 lap too soon as well. Which promotes Perez to ninth because he crashed out on the “last” lap which now does not count.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I see.

I think I can be more forgiving of the typhoon induced computer glitches, but that penalty was totally inexcusable. Either don’t say no further actions, otherwise why can’t you keep to your word? Wonder if they were under pressure from Honda? Afraid of Japanese fans rioting just like they were especially nice to Ferrari at Monza... or maybe they saved a bit of penalties from Monza and applied to Charlie boy here in Suzuka since the crazy Italian fans are far away now. :D

[JoeW]

I think both penalties were deserved. When Ferrari told him to initially come in and he said it’s fine...then Hamilton nearly had his head removed by debris...that was uncool.

And of course he knocked Max off track.

More surprised about Albon getting off free.

[Freude am Fahren]

If everyone kept racing to the real final lap, why not just count it?

As for LeClerc, I was really surprised they said no further action so quickly. I thought maybe it was a mistake. And they changed it before Max retired. I agree the result shouldn't be the motivating factor for a penalty, with the exception of some instances when the guilty party is the only one to suffer.

[JoeW]

Apparently the finish line thing happened in Canada in 2018 where the supermodel flag lady waved it one lap early.

They quoted a rule stating that if a finish is signaled at the line prior to the actual finish then the race is ended on the lap the lead driver was on when the flag was waved. Apparently someone waved it at Suzuka too early but the teams on the radio said to keep racing.

[Freude am Fahren]

Finally found some more info. The funny part is the checkered flag "light" or sign whatever that is automatically triggered was in response to that incident as well, and ended up doing the same thing :lol:

[JoeW]

Just some weird stuff going on in Suzuka :)

[2ndMoparMan]

Would a 'Because Japan' comment be out of place here?

[FaultyMario]

What's more interesting, to nerdy me at least, is the complaint filed against Renault's turn by turn brake bias (BB) presets. (Basically the power unit 'knows' how much force to distribute to each of the axles based on a number of factors that are fed to it, including, and not limited to, track conditions; remember kids, hybrid units help brake the rear wheels).

Rumor says it was Dan "Last of Late Brakers" Ricciardo who helped Renault engineers model this system based on his knowledge of RBR's own active braking trickery.

Also from the rumor mill, telling tale was that on-board video from the Renaults showed the drivers clicking thru BB settings in a manner that did not correlate to the difference each corner made in BB.

For example say T1 needs a 55-45 split, and T2 needs a 60-40 BB. Since F1 steering wheel dials are capable of +/-1 or +/-10 granularity, such a change would need five clicks. Instead, Renault drivers where seen circling thru preset clicks instead of going plus, plus, plus to change their braking splits.

[FaultyMario]

Racing Point filed a protest against Renault, not a complaint.

[JoeW]

Jeezus. These cars are just way too complicated.

So are they not supposed to be able to change it in such increments? What is the actual thing they are complaining about?

[FaultyMario]

Drivers are supposed to make the adjustments themselves and not rely on preset adjustments.


11.1.4 Any change to, or modulation of, the brake system, other than any movement of the minimal flexible parts described in Article 11.4 to 11.6, whilst the car is on the track must be made by the driver’s direct physical input or by the system referred to in Article 11.9, and may not be pre‐set.

[dodint]

https://i.redd.it/qzo4rydx8fs31.png

[JoeW]

Lmao

[Rare White Ape]

Fucking Rosberg of Doom

[2ndMoparMan]

pls no punterino

[Rare White Ape]

<3


https://youtu.be/nfzG2btjzY4

[Crazed_Insanity]

Kimi is the greatest F1 driver (in his own way) EVER!!! Happy birthday dude! :D

[JoeW]

Well if we can throw around parenthetical caveats...

Grosjean is the greatest F1 driver (in his own way) EVER!!!

[Crazed_Insanity]

If you're talking about the "way" how some seemingly talented F1 drivers who just couldn't turn their brains on during the race which resulted in lots of crashes..., I'd disagree with you.

I'd nominate Pastor Maldonado for that. At least he won a race! :D

[Blerpa]

Maldonado was a better driver than Grosjean, IMHO.

[Crazed_Insanity]

That’s probably why he won a race, but he crashes a lot too... I just thought he probably had more spectacular crashes than Grojean?

anyway, I may be misinterpreting JoeW’s ‘way’. This can be very subjective... :p

[FaultyMario]

Maldonado was a better driver than Grosjean, IMHO.

Faster (by a good margin) but not better, IMO.

[Rare White Ape]

It doesn't matter who was better, it matters that they were better (in their own way).

[Crazed_Insanity]

:lol:

[FaultyMario]

Racing Point filed a protest against Renault, not a complaint.

Here comes the boom!


The stewards note that there is a clear distinction between this system and one which provides actual feedback control, which would be a substitute for driver skills or reflexes. Nevertheless, it is still an aid and, therefore, contravenes the regulations.

Renault disqualified from the Japanese GP.

[FaultyMario]

Lewis Hamilton going face to face with a multiple World Champion. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-SFzS051Vg&t=111)

[CudaMan]

It'll be interesting to find out more about the Renault brake bias system. The description I've read doesn't make it seem like a driver aid, so it must be doing something extra tricky the public doesn't know about yet.

[IMOA]

Mass dampers were banned for being a moving aerodynamic device even though they were inside the car. It doesn't need to actually be a drivers aid for the FIA to ban it for being a divers aid.

[FaultyMario]

It'll be interesting to find out more about the Renault brake bias system. The description I've read doesn't make it seem like a driver aid, so it must be doing something extra tricky the public doesn't know about yet.

I'd love to (read) your explanation, I've found that you always give simple and clear explanations to car stuff that's like dark arts to the rest of us.

[CudaMan]

I've just read the FIA report. We may not know for some time what Renault is doing, but it appears that they're utilizing a system that changes brake bias as a result of a different change made by the driver, or perhaps as a result of a sensor reading (speculating on that one). While Racing Point was wrong about what the system entailed, Renault's system was understandably kept confidential by the FIA as it is intellectual property.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Haven't paid much attention to this, but how did Racing Point figured it out (wrongly) in the 1st place that Renault was up to something?

I guess the other faster teams probably just couldn't care less what Renault was up to?

Anyway, I wish FIA could change the rules a bit so that they focus scrutinizing mainly on the podium finishers. If you break the rules a bit and hired a proven F1 winner and the most you can do is 7th, they ought to just let that slide a little...

What's next? DQ Williams for trying something clever? What's the point? Who knows what kind of tricks Mercedes and Ferraris are up to that they haven't discovered?

Kinda like IRS auditing the poor because it's just easier to audit the poor and you don't really want to upset the rich people too much... :rolleyes:

[JoeW]

Mmmkay….selective rules enforcement is super smart.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Just saying if you're going to fry fishies, you might as well try to fry the big ones 1st.

If Renault ended up the podium, then you lay down the law.

McLaren was faster than the factory Renault!!! (maybe they cheated too, but Racing Point was on their ass)

Anyway, I just thought a warning should suffice. If the infringement was so severe that warranted a DQ, then I don't understand why FIA needed to respect such cheating intellectual property. It should be made an example publicly of what not to do. Anyway, how ever I look at this, I'm not happy with the FIA's decisions.

Anywho, this is how I feel now, let's see how this thing unfolds, I reserve the right to change my feelings. :p

[Crazed_Insanity]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPhoKidnSRQ

Okay, so it was an ex-renault employee who ratted out on Renault...

[FaultyMario]

They say this video (Barcelona shakedown by Ricciardo):


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PcL7I1NSQDs

Gave hints to what's going on. Brake bias adjustments should be done with the lower left-hand dial, according to this photo (https://www.alamy.com/melbourne-australia-march-15-renault-sport-f1-team-steering-wheel-during-2nd-practice-session-on-day-2-of-the-2019-formula-1-australian-grand-prix-image241921894.html).

[FaultyMario]

I watched it again and you can see the brake bias monitor go from 0% to +3.0% without the driver doing much apparently.

[Blerpa]

What I gathered is simply: there's a system (GPS, memory controlled or box controlled, dunno) that automatically reckons what bend or part of the track the driver is and automatically changes brake bias in relation to that.

[CudaMan]

Billi - rules are rules and this is F1, not the Equality Racing Series. :) Where else in racing these days are you left to your own devices to conceive, design, and construct your own race car? Rules need to be clear and equally enforced, period.

[Freude am Fahren]

I don't really see how this is any more a driver aid than the way ERS is deployed.

[Rare White Ape]

Billi - rules are rules and this is F1, not the Equality Racing Series. :) Where else in racing these days are you left to your own devices to conceive, design, and construct your own race car? Rules need to be clear and equally enforced, period.

Yep. Without consistently applied rules then you have no credibility.

Plus sporting events need to meet a certain standard and it’s the organiser’s responsibility to ensure it meets that standard. This is because of legislation around the world covering things like betting and gambling, plus the vast amounts of sponsorship money and prize money involved. It’s a high stakes thing.

Another point, if they ignored the mid-tier teams to focus on the fastest guys, that would be unfair for the other mid-tier teams who’ve done things perfectly legally.

[JoeW]

Honestly at this point I am more excited for the next Netflix F1 season than watching the remaining races :)

[Rare White Ape]

Verstappen has lost pole for failing to slow for the yellow flag after Bottas’ crash.

[Crazed_Insanity]

That’s another incident where I think FIA doesn’t really consistently apply their rules on big influential team.

Yes, rules are rules, legally speaking, he should lose his pole, but it irks me that Hamilton got away with it.

Yeah, he was immediately behind and could say that he didn’t see the yellow yet and thought about slowing... whereas Max was pretty straight up like kimi... no, I didn’t slow, with the I know that I’m doing attitude... and resulted in grid penalty for him.

I only saw the highlights and it didn’t show how far behind Max was, but pretty sure Lewis had a clear view of the crash and he didn’t slow....

Yes, it another case of rules are rules, we wave yellow and you didn’t slow so we penalize you. But again, I think it’s kinda stupid.

[JoeW]

Hamilton saw the crash but the flag had not waved yet. They were all coming hot one right after the other barely 3-4 sec behind each other. Honestly at that part of the track and at that speed I don't see how the hell they are supposed to notice that little flag off to the other side of the track from where they are driving. It's a fast high G right hander right before the finish line and this little tiny flag is waving on the far left hand side of the track.

Max already had Pole won at that point due to Bottas' crash but he didn't know it yet. If he had slowed he would have still had it in the bag.

[Rare White Ape]

They have flag lights on the steering wheel, plus an engineer who tells them stuff.

Plus Verstappen is competing at the highest level of motorsport on the world. Him and his team are expected to provide the highest level of professionalism in the world.

That includes obeying yellow flags.

Just as the stewards are expected to bring the highest level of stewarding in the world. If they selectively choose to not punish Verstappen, the “if he gets away with it then I should get away with it” defence becomes the standard.

[JoeW]

Totally agree.

[Crazed_Insanity]

If I were Max, if I see Hamilton not slowing down, I wouldn’t slow down either. I’d only slow if it’s indeed not safe to do so.

Anyway, I somehow tend to see the highest form of racing tend to play favorites... back in the days it was shuey/Ferrari and now I see Hamilton/ Mercedes being favored more.

Maybe it’s just me who’s insane. Do you guys really think this highest form of motor racing is really really fair and unbiased?

[Blerpa]

If I were Max, if I see Hamilton not slowing down, I wouldn’t slow down either. I’d only slow if it’s indeed not safe to do so.

He has to obey to flags, communication by his team and flag lights on the steering wheel, not to what he sees on the moment.
They are professionals and must abide to rules, not to what anyone feels.

I totally agree with RWA.
Also he had it already in the bag, so he did two mistakes: forgoing the rules and not being able to think quick.
And he is to blame in equal part as his team which should have been quick to communicate him what to do.
In a sport where crucial stuff like pitstops last mere 2 seconds you must be quick with react and well versed in the knowledge of all the rules in place.

And yes, more than sometimes there has been an inconsistant application of rules or situational ruling, but that does not justify to be careless about rules.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Yeah, logically can’t disagree with you guys, like I said, it just doesn’t ‘feel’ fair... knowing that it’s not that dangerous to zoom by the crash and not wanting to risk Hamilton end up with the pole, I just might not lift too...

Still haven’t seen the actual footage... but yeah... why didn’t the team mention to him that he wasn’t going to beat his fastest time anyway and slow down?!?!? Team probably ‘felt’ the same as me and not thinking? Otherwise they’d probably complained when they took away his pole...

[JoeW]

I just watched it over again. Ham came 4 secs after Bottas. Vettel was another 3 secs behind and he saw the flag and slowed down. Verstappen was another 2-3secs behind Vettel. So he clearly saw it and ignored. I don’t think the team would have had time to actually say on the radio “hey Bottas crashed so you’ve got it wrapped up”. They probably said “Bottas crashed”. So Max ignored and pushed on in spite of everything because he was blinded by the desire to win pole over safety.

The whole thing is what if you ignore the flag and crash in the same spot and injure the safety workers or Bottas even further. When you see a crash then slow down...period.

[Blerpa]

The whole thing is what if you ignore the flag and crash in the same spot and injure the safety workers or Bottas even further. When you see a crash then slow down...period.

This. Exactly this.

[Freude am Fahren]

So, Horner just said on the grid that Bottas took out the lighting system, so no light or dash light, just the flag.

Brundle responded, if there was a Mercedes sticking out of the wall, you should slow down :lol:

[Crazed_Insanity]

Oh, Max was actually behind Vettel?!?!?! I thought he was in between Hamilton and Vettel. Vettel slowing down didn’t impede Max?

Anyway, I guess this incident has proven that I’m a much bigger fan boi than JoeW! :p

[Rare White Ape]

I don’t think the team would have had time to actually say on the radio “hey Bottas crashed so you’ve got it wrapped up”. They probably said “Bottas crashed”

I think they probably said “Yellow flag, crash at final turn driver’s left, racing line is clear keep pushing”

[Rare White Ape]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v= VmWGNhG0GNw

[samoht]

I have to say, that was an impressive drive by Lewis to win at Merc's bogey track, when Ferrari had the apparent pace.

I do wonder whether Leclerc is going to lose trust/patience with Ferrari, they seem to keep being the biggest obstacle between him and victory.

That said, it's true that people thought two-stop would be the way to go here, so not that Ferrari were completely out to lunch - it's more that others seemed to react better to the unexpected durability of the hard tyres.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Thanks for that.

It’s clear that he ignored the yellow, no question there.

It’s also clear why he pedaled to the metal. He knows that he’ll improve his pole time! ;)

I still can’t see who’s in front of him. Looked like a silver car but I’ll take JoeWs word that it’s Vettel.

Strictly from a safety perspective, I’d think Hamilton took greater risks because he doesn’t know how might rebound into his path.., as for Max, the car is clearly parked and no safety crew working on the car yet.... other than the yellow flag of course.

[Freude am Fahren]

Someone on the Sky team made a good point. Often in the races, the Hards prove to be a good tire to be on, yet no one brings/uses enough to really get good data from them on Friday.

[dodint]

It occurred to me today that Max is the Formula 1 version of Bryce Harper. All entitlement and not even close to performing at the level to back it up.

Was funny listening to the interview with Horner during the race. I know he has to stump for his driver, but I had to chuckle at how he said the tire unfortunately deflated itself. Yeah. When it was thrust across the leading edge of a front wing. :lol:

[JoeW]

I am amazed Max put 65 laps on those tires and was running 1:20s still. Crazy tire management.

[Blerpa]

Was funny listening to the interview with Horner during the race. I know he has to stump for his driver, but I had to chuckle at how he said the tire unfortunately deflated itself. Yeah. When it was thrust across the leading edge of a front wing. :lol:

Also, I did find funny that when asked about Albon he said Alexander did a "decent" race and he's learning.
Since Albon joined Red Bull on Belgium GP at Spa he has scored 58 points. Verstappen? 39. I rest my case.

[JoeW]

You guys are so funny...what case are you resting exactly?

Belgium...Kimi turned down on Max...ending Max's race.
Monza...Max took engine penalties and started 19th. Wtf do you expect?
Singapore...Max finished 3rd.
Russia...Max 4th.
Japan...Max taken out by Leclerc.
Mexico...Max finished 6th.

So 2 DNFs, a 3rd, 4th, 6th and 8th.

So do any of you guys care to wager which driver will finish higher in the final rounds? I know you guys like to bash but if you seriously think Albon is the better and faster driver I'd be happy to place a little wager.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Com’on you antifanboys. Still doubting Max?

Albon is pretty good for sure but he is still learning and not quite at the same max level yet.

Senna’s final season scored very little point prior to crashing to death... nobody would conclude teammate Damon hill to be the better driver, right?

When Albon win some poles and races, then let’s talk...

[FaultyMario]

So do any of you guys care to wager which driver will finish higher in the final rounds? I know you guys like to bash but if you seriously think Albon is the better and faster driver I'd be happy to place a little wager.

Thing is, Alex Albon HAS been the better driver in the GPs that they've run together.

Else, we might as well be praying for the second coming of Alonso; you know, to claim his third and fourth titles and then sit to the right of the father and all that.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Why pray when you can put money where your mouth is?

Let’s play!

[FaultyMario]

Evidence has never beaten faith.

[CudaMan]

I'm skeptical on Albon being better than Max at this point. Max still seems to have a pace advantage in both qualy and race. And I say that fully wanting Albon to do well.

-

Middle phase of the race: Lewis: "Guys these tires aren't gonna last man. Why did we ________!?"

Final phase of the race: Lewis: "Tires are good."

Lewis wins race.

So goes 2019.

I'm beginning to think he's playing us all.

[JoeW]

Max finishes ahead of Albon every race they both get out of lap 1 safely and aren’t taking engine penalties.

It’s pretty obvious he’s one of the top 3 driver talents on the grid. I haven’t read an expert F1 journalist who would disagree. And it’s my opinion he’s the most talented driver on the grid. I’ve also read a few who would agree with that.

I did notice the hater peanut gallery was pretty silent for awhile there. Throw in a few unfortunate 1st lap race ending contact events and the trolls come out of the woodwork.

This IS a public fun time forum where we can rib each other and generally have a good time. But it is my opinion that if you had to start F1 fresh from scratch next year with all drivers free of contracts and every team had an unlimited budget...when it was time to pick drivers Max would be the 1st one picked. I think most of the talk around the paddock with team principals, journalists etc prove that to be true when they talk about interest in future driver availability.

[Blerpa]

All this chat in here is MOOT: only things that matters in F1 is points. And money. Talent a distant third.
Albon faster and better than Max? No.
But he scored more points than Max since he went there.
F1 and motorsport in general (aside from that disgusting atrocity called Drifting) are based on one thing: scoring more points than someone else with better results and getting in the top positions going from a start to a finish.
Style? Battles? They are good for chit chat and emotional documentaries, or for nice stories about F1 history.
Example? To me Stirling Moss is in the top 5 of the best drivers ever in F1 history, Michael Schumacher is not. Who has won more championships? Moss has not even won one.
To F1? It only matters points, wins and championships.

We all think Max Verstappen has talent (to me less than the money sponsoring him, but that's my personal take), but let's be real: 7 wins, a single pole position and no championships won.
And you are here making him the sureproof amazing champion of the future. He ain't a Marc Marquez. He ain't a Senna. He ain't an Alonso (vastly superior in pure talent and racecraft, aside his big mouth). He ain't surely an Hamilton.
But also keeping the actual gods of motorsport aside... let's see, a much maligned Jenson Button has retired from F1 with 15 race wins and 1 championship on his belt, the loathed Jacques Villeneuve with 11 race wins and 1 championship... the speedy but inconsistant Nigel Mansell? a grand total of 31 victories and 1 championship.

Verstappen so far has delivered 10% of what is expected from him.
He is young? Kinda.
He has time? Kinda (Button surely did teach us about that...) but he has been already 5 years in F1... 5 years in F1 is a shitload of time.
And lest not forget when Ricciardo was beating him with more style and intelligence before RB cut him out (which did happen already in the past with Webber).

So far Verstappen has a mountain to climb. A future champion? Possibly. But there's a not too remote possibility he will end up being remembered as another Jean Alesi, Gilles Villeneuve or David Coulthard.
Also, as the old, but always true, adage says "To finish first, you must first finish".
Something that in 5 years in F1 is still not very clear, seemingly, to Verstappen.

[Blerpa]

I'm beginning to think he's playing us all.

Beginning? I thought that since his Mclaren debut.
Also I think he is a bit like me: when things get intense and I'm fully concentrated I either stay silent or vent on any thing that is not convincing me or I feel is failing me while I'm putting my 100%.
It's my way to release pressure while I do things and also my way to even remember to breathe (literally).

[FaultyMario]

The car on the podium was coolio.

[FaultyMario]

The selfies guy, as Vettel eloquently put it, was shit.

[JoeW]

The point was made that Albon was the better driver which is clearly not the case.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I find it difficult to understand why people think Max is a worse driver than Mansell, Button, and even JV?!?!?
I think we can all agree that Ricciardo is an awesome driver... capable to blowing Vettel away, literally.
Yet, he was in the end blown away by Max! He’s in F1 longer than Max and he’s older... and if he is the faster driver, it makes no sense for a team to let the faster and more mature one go.

Mclaren let Prost and Alonso go and threw full support to Senna and Hamilton probably is saying something. When a team claims they're treating drivers 'equally', I guess it tends to piss off the older driver who think they deserve better treatment!

I don’t think we’re at a stage where RB is ready to fully support Albon and let Max go. Of course I’m sure RB is currently very happy with Albon right now. But will you hear RB saying they'll start to treat both Max and Albon 'equally'?

As for Mercedes equal treatment for both of their drivers... well, Hamilton knows that he's better and better paid. So you know there's no equality. If there's a hint of Bottas ended up with a better pit strategy, you can bet Hamilton would bitch and complain! :p

This is not all based on faith, and please also don’t make premature conclusions based on incomplete evidences. You can put whatever legendary driver in that RB in place of Max and nobody’s gonna be able win Championships during the last 5 year period. Probably won’t crash as much as Max, but winning championships would be out of question. You’re expecting too much from him.

JV must’ve been the luckiest SOB to be able to sign on a championship winning team along with a so so teammate in his rookie season...

I don’t know much about sterling moss, but yeah, I find it unlikely Max would end his career never being a champion like Sterling.

In my mind, both Ricciardo and Max should easily be able to achieve what Vettel achieved given the same car during the same years...

I'd like to see a new teammate that end up causing Max to leave... then perhaps I'll knock down a few points off of him. I've knocked down quite a bit of points off of Vettel and Ricciardo. I can't really blame Vettel for going to Ferrari..., but Ricciardo's move was really disappointing... probably to him as well. I wish he'd stay with RB... it would've made this season much more interesting. It's always more interesting to see 2 greats fighting each other in the same team. At the moment, we don't have any of that... except we're maybe beginning to have one in team Ferrari.

[JoeW]

Btw I already proved that Max outscored Ricciardo in all the races that neither of them had their car break down or get crashed into.

Albon is currently still over a half second down in qualifying and race laps as well.

[dodint]

Yes, if you take away the times Max crashes into things his average result does go up.

It ends up being a small sample size, though.

I think you're hung up on potential. To be a champion takes a total package; he doesn't have it.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Please note JoeW said when Max was crashed into, not when Max crashes into things, right Joe?

Of course that might be a bit biased too. Michael Andretti was crashed into a lot... so maybe he's a pretty great driver if all other F1 drivers learn how to drive! :p

[FaultyMario]

Yup, If you take out a number of Verstappen's worse races, that same number ought to be substracted from his teammate, otherwise you're skewing the results by manipulating the data pool.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Statistics can be funny like that. We can slice and dice the #s which ever way we like to prove our point.

Let's just let time play out further into the future in order to settle our disputes.

So are we ready to put money where our mouths are? :D

We should be able to live to see Max's retirement in F1, right? Then we'll have a complete set of actual data to analyze him with...

And remember to pay up! :p

[FaultyMario]

Please note JoeW said when Max was crashed into, not when Max crashes into things, right Joe?

Of course that might be a bit biased too. Michael Andretti was crashed into a lot... so maybe he's a pretty great driver if all other F1 drivers learn how to drive! :p

Top drivers are no longer intimidated by Verstappen's racecraft. It's like Villeneuve at Jerez, once he decided he wasn't going to be bullied into an incident, he bumped Schumi onto the kitty litter.

[FaultyMario]

And remember to pay up! :p

What's the wager? I don't bet on subjective. :finger:

[FaultyMario]

They say that the one condition for Albon to get the 2020 RB seat is to get a number of rostrums (might be 1, might be more).

I understand that they keep Max around because he sells a lot of sugary drinks or hats or whatever Dietrich Mateschitz sells, but I don't know how much longer they'll keep him if he continues to miss opportunities. 2021 shall give us an answer.

[Crazed_Insanity]

What's the wager? I don't bet on subjective. :finger:

I'm a Christian so I cannot wager too much money without upsetting my Lord Jesus Christ... so let's make it a small but still significant amount to make it worthwhile?

I think maybe another 5~6 years or so the doubters should be able to further confirm their beliefs or be converted. If we still cannot settle it, then I guess we'll have to wait til he retires or dead someday.

Easiest way to do this is probably for the loser to buy the other a meal or something whenever they visit their hometowns. In our case, if I ever visit Mexico or you visit LA, loser will buy dinner or at least beer or something. Now if you absolutely don't want to hear me preach or rub it in, then of course you could paypal the money. If you prefer the monitary method, I think $20 or roughly $400 pesos is a reasonable amount?

Also, the wager is for at least 2 championships so that he's not a fluke like JV. If he dies prematurely or still not a multi champ within the next 6 years, not counting this one, if Max is just another JB, then you win. How's that? We are wagering on whether if Max is worthy of legendary status in F1 history... so he has to be better than champs like JV and JB... and win at least 2 championships, right?

[JoeW]

I will bet $20 Max outscores Albon the remainder of the season. If we want to bet on Max’s position next season I’d be happy to do that as well.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Short term bets are probably more like gambling..., we should do longterm bets only!

Just like stock market in the short term is much more difficult to predict, where as it stands a good chance to make you some money if you're investing toward your retirement...

Also, I'm sure the admins wouldn't be very happy to see us doing short term gambling.

The point of the long term wager is to shut the holes of those doubters..., we don't really want to gamble here, right? ;)

[JoeW]

I consider myself fairly objective. I can see when someone some one makes a mistake. And I can see where you guys are coming from when it comes to Max. Once he starts making mistakes you guys love to pile on the hate...which is just fine...whatever makes you happy.

But I happen to see the raw talent and driving ability. The guy, to me, is clearly the fastest driver on the grid. If there was a spec F1 series he'd be the fastest guy.

BUT...homeslice also clearly has some self control issues. His logical intelligent brain center is being overridden in some isolated instances by his impatience and inability to control his emotions sometimes. And it really seems to only happen at the start of races. His aggression can help but it also can hurt. Once he settles in he is the clear master of his craft. Pace, tire management, patience...he has it all. Except at the start for whatever reason. People rave over Hamilton going 40+ laps in Mexico...wow what a master. Max went 66 laps on the same tire and was still turning 1:20s. Once Max is down to business he doesn't cry or whine. He says car feels good, tires are good etc etc. He's never worried or flustered. He's just got to get his shit together on the starts.

Will he? I hope so. Because I think F1 needs someone like him to be the new fiery Senna type driver. But if he can't...well he dug his own grave. I try to think what I was doing at 21-22...riding my sportbikes at ridiculous speeds, doing dumb shit, getting thrown in jail for said things...I grew up. Hopefully he can too. I didn't really start being mature until my mid to late 20's. So hopefully he pulls it together quicker than I did.

[FaultyMario]

New Senna?

He's in the Williams, amirite?

[FaultyMario]

But if he can't...well he dug his own grave. I try to think what I was doing at 21-22...riding my sportbikes at ridiculous speeds, doing dumb shit, getting thrown in jail for said things...I grew up. Hopefully he can too. I didn't really start being mature until my mid to late 20's. So hopefully he pulls it together quicker than I did.

I look at F1 as a job with maximum expectations. And while there might be huge potential in Verstappen, he tends to make more mistakes than any of the other 5 drivers with a realistic shot at a podium finish. Quite frankly, 5 years without a title in a top team is too long. I don't expect him to stay in either of the 3 teams if he hasn't won a WDC by 2021. Same goes for Vettel and Bottas, they'll be out of their current teams if they don't win it next year. Although Vettel can still land a top drive, given his racing record.

[FaultyMario]

Verstappen is kind of like Perez. He was still making too many mistakes when he arrived at McLaren. Granted, the team was no longer giving their drivers a race-winning car, but the demands were still those of Ron's team.

If this was Verstappen's second year at Red Bull one could be more forgiving, but it's his fourth. Not enough time to mature and iron out the kinks in his on-track behavior? Well, that's a problem his management (his dad) should have foreseen.

[FaultyMario]

Rumor says it was Dan "Last of Late Brakers" Ricciardo who helped Renault engineers model this system based on his knowledge of RBR's own active braking trickery.



Debunked by Grosjean who said he was using the system back in his Lotus days

[dodint]

That alludes to one of the reasons I have never looked favorably on Max. How his Dad, on an illustrious 2-podium 0-win career, pulled enough strings to make it seem like Max is entitled not only to be in F1 but in a top team is beyond me.

[JoeW]

He clearly is fast enough. But I wouldn’t say Max was ever in a top team...he has never had a car capable of winning a championship and therefore shouldn’t be expected to win one in said car.

[Rare White Ape]

We’ve been debating Verstappen for how many years now?

Instead of comparing him to his team mate, who is a rookie that was lucky enough to be promoted to #2 driver halfway through the year, let’s compare Verstappen to drivers closer in stature: Hamilton, Bottas, Vettel and LeClerc.

Surely that would be more fair.

[FaultyMario]

He clearly is fast enough. But I wouldn’t say Max was ever in a top team...he has never had a car capable of winning a championship and therefore shouldn’t be expected to win one in said car.

Races.

Cars can win races. Drivers and teams win championships.
Ferrari have thrown at least 2 championships since they last won with Kimi.

[JoeW]

Article posted today...
https://wtf1.com/post/hamilton-had-a-dig-at-verstappens-driving-following-their-opening-lap-clash/?fbclid=IwAR2zOCY5oyPK_FVCApu9oSVlMvg9wXj5v4RYintv Ztsw2lafDZekS0rVxmk

[Crazed_Insanity]

Races.

Cars can win races. Drivers and teams win championships.
Ferrari have thrown at least 2 championships since they last won with Kimi.

How many did RB throw away over the past 5 years?

I just don’t think they were even in the running...

[dodint]

He clearly is fast enough. But I wouldn’t say Max was ever in a top team...he has never had a car capable of winning a championship and therefore shouldn’t be expected to win one in said car.

The flip side of this is how many drivers can win in a championship car? The top 6? Top 12? Why bother with Max, who crashes out of contention and acts like a fuckstick most of the time, when you can hire anyone in the top half of any given F1 field?

[JoeW]

While this is true...you could weed out the half that performs worse than their current teammate and start there.

[CudaMan]

So far it seems Danny Ric is the only teammate that has been able to take the fight to Max on pace.

[FaultyMario]

Yes.

[FaultyMario]

We’ve been debating Verstappen for how many years now?

Such is the state of things in Formula Mercedes. You'd rather we discussed Bottas' permutations?

[CudaMan]

Bottas 2.0 is pretty entertaining. He seemed to be there Sunday at the Mexican GP but started too far back after bumbling qualifying.

[FaultyMario]

I also thought that this was Perez's finest drive. This version of Perez would have no problem hunting down Alonso in Malaysia '12.

[JoeW]

All this BS back and forth about who is better etc etc really is a bummer for fans. Imagine being a huge fan of a driver on any team other than Ferrari or Merc (or really just Merc this season). You are basically just rooting for "a decent result".

F1 should really have an end of season spec race where they can all try to showcase who is the best driver. Maybe put them all in an F2 car with their own livery. I know it will never happen...but it needs to happen. At the end of that day you might have a renewed sense that your driver really is better than his car suggests...or vice versa ;)

These drivers would relish the opportunity to race each other on equal footing on a fun day. Maybe do it for charity annually or something like that.

Just dreaming...

[dodint]

When I came into the sport I did so by way of being a BMW fan. There is a certain art to cheering for an entity that isn't supposed to win. But I do prefer that over the contrived BoP of sports cars. At least it's honest and the successes (Canada 2008!) have meaning. When BMW basically abandoned the team (re: development) after starting the year leading the points it was really heartbreaking.

[JoeW]

Here’s a good article about Mexico...

https://www.espn.co.uk/f1/story/_/id/27956960/mexico-was-case-study-hamilton-strengths-verstappen-weaknesses

[dodint]

Max Verstappen Starting To Doubt His ‘Drive Like An Asshole’ Strategy Is Working


AUSTIN, Texas- Looking back on his weekend in Mexico where he lost pole position because he did not slow for a yellow flag then had two incidents of contact on the first lap with the result being a sixth place finish, Max Verstappen says he has reason to believe his ‘drive like an asshole’ strategy might not be the best going forward. “When I saw the yellow flag that came out because of Valterri’s crash, it occurred to me that the appropriate course of action would have been lifting off the throttle just a bit to avoid any penalty, but I also thought to hell with that and just kept it floored thinking that being an asshole was the only way to go. It was not until the interviews afterward where I admitted it and doubled down that maybe this was not the best strategy,” said Verstappen, who also admitted his attempt at trying way too hard at the start and possibly taking out Lewis Hamilton is something he might want to rethink next time. “Before the race it was no secret that I would be way too aggressive going into turn 1, and the idea of letting everyone down was weighing pretty heavily on me. In retrospect running into Lewis then cutting my tire on Valterri’s front wing making another asshole move was really cool at the time but not so much now.”

Reached for comment on Verstappen’s re-thinking of not being such an asshole on track, Christian Horner said Red Bull will consider firing Alex Albon to raise Max’s spirits.

https://theluggnutt.com/2019/10/29/max-verstappen-starting-to-doubt-his-drive-like-an-asshole-strategy-is-working/

[JoeW]

First time I’ve seen that site...some really funny stuff just on the front page :)

[dodint]

Some of the stories are painfully on point, particularly with grassroots racing.

I chuckled at the line about Albon. :lol:

[Blerpa]

All this BS back and forth about who is better etc etc really is a bummer for fans. Imagine being a huge fan of a driver on any team other than Ferrari or Merc (or really just Merc this season). You are basically just rooting for "a decent result".

F1 should really have an end of season spec race where they can all try to showcase who is the best driver. Maybe put them all in an F2 car with their own livery. I know it will never happen...but it needs to happen. At the end of that day you might have a renewed sense that your driver really is better than his car suggests...or vice versa ;)

These drivers would relish the opportunity to race each other on equal footing on a fun day. Maybe do it for charity annually or something like that.

Just dreaming...

That's F1. It has always been this way since 1950.
There's Indycars or F2 if you are looking for something different.
And I say this as someone that prefers spec racing (and that would prefer around 80% of standard parts in F1).

[JoeW]

Oh I know...just dreaming.

[Rare White Ape]

The measure of a driver isn’t just about how fast they are on track, but also the quality of team they end up in. These guys don’t race in a vacuum.

I had this discussion with my friends at Philip Island, some of whom like to remind Valentino Rossi fans that part of his early greatness was down to the “Saturday night special” tyres provided by Michelin, just for Rossi. And it was true: at the European rounds Michelin would collect data over the Friday and Saturday practise sessions and build a few sets of tyres specifically tailored to his riding style, the bike, the track, the predicted weather, then fly them overnight and have them delivered to the team in time for warm up. The service was banned roughly at the same time that Bridgestone took over and control tyre supplier, to the detriment to both the sport and to customers who benefitted from the amazing tyre development of the time.

My friends saw this as cheating, but it was perfectly legal under the rules of the time. The other teams lobbied to either force Michelin to do the same for everyone, or change the rules just to stop one man from winning so much.

Now back to the point I’m making; Rossi was given these tyres, but the others weren’t. Why were they left out?

Because they weren’t Rossi, and Rossi was the best.

They could’ve given them to Max Biaggi, who was arguably just as fast as Rossi, but his riding style wasn’t as suited to the high-torque MotoGP bikes as he was to the peaky 500cc two-strokes, nor was he as popular off the track as Rossi, or as consistent, or as funny.

Now to Verstappen. Is he fast? Yes.

Is he consistent? No.

Is he popular? Yeah.

But, is he as good as Hamilton? Definitely not.

Is he as good as Vettel, Bottas, and LeClerc? No, no, maybe.

This post is a long-winded way of saying that if he was truly good, he would be the #1 driver at Mercedes with Hamilton as his #2 team mate.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Mercedes and Ferrari are pretty occupied right now.

Reality of the situation is that Max has never been the #2 driver of any team. He even inconsistently won his 1st race at RB, making it difficult to apply the #2 status on him.

If RB Honda can’t win more consistently, it’s only a matter of time before he moves to another top team.

Anyway, I do agree with you that a true champ will inspire and lift up his entire team to greatness.

Does Max have such leadership qualities? Maybe maybe not. He is for sure doing a decent job lifting up RB, but RB may have so much at stake and they have no one else to pin their hopes to...

It’ll be interesting to see how he performs in another top team... like how Hamilton does it for Mercedes. Schuey did it for Ferrari... or will he be like Alonso and Vettel? As they’ve proven that raw talents are not enough to win championships.

However I suspect Max to repeat what Vettel did for RB when RB Honda get their act together. I truly believe Max is better than Vettel. If he can continue to win championships outside of RB, then we can be sure he’s up there with Hamilton and Senna.

[JoeW]

Obviously your conclusions are false. Team contract durations are usually what determines who goes where. A spot might open up for a top team but the driver they want is under contract so they settle for the next available guy.

When Ric was available there were no good spots available.

So it’s all about timing. Mercedes obviously wants Max pretty badly but he’s under contract. So next year when Bottas leaves a spot open in Mercedes we’ll see what happens because a lot of top guys’ contracts will be up too.

[Blerpa]

Soon Vettel will leave Ferrari.
And Ricciardo and Verstappen's contracts will expire (and Renault is close to abandon F1, possibly, anyway).
Who do you think would Ferrari sign on? Daniel or Max?
It's like 90% sure to be Ricciardo.
Verstappen is #1 driver at RB only because RB has quite not much appeal for other champions, otherwise he would not have #1 status.
And there's no other "future champion" marketing-fuelled driver right now in Red Bull roster.

[JoeW]

I can’t wait to find out :) Silly season is fun season.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I get the feeling that Ferrari will be happy with Charlie boy as their #1 driver and then just hire a more seasoned and proven #2. Bottas would fit the bill. Heck. Maybe they’ll bring back Kimi.

I don’t think Ferrari knows how to treat drivers equally. They shouldn’t try to hire two #1 egomaniac drivers.

[JoeW]

Listen I want to say I was so proud of my little boy Max for turning himself around from the last half of last season through the first half of this season. My guy was on fire and the peanut gallery was silent.

Then there were a few stumbles. No problem, temporary setbacks. Then he turned it up again. Then a stumble. I still loved my aggressive little guy Max. You do you my little crazy talented driver.

Then he did something that irked me more than any of that. Ignoring the yellow flag at Mexico because he was on a purple lap just gets under my skin. I’m the safety monitor guy around the house...always recognizing possible hazards when the kids are horsing around. When he hammered it after seeing a wrecked car...that’s just disrespectful.

Now my love affair is tainted so we’ll see how the next rounds go and the beginning of next season before I renew our relationship fully :)

[Crazed_Insanity]

A loving committed relationship should be able to survive a little yellow flag violation, no? :D

I'd break up with him only if he's caught cheating. That's where I'd draw the line. :p

[dodint]

Look at this guy, building an argument on the foundation of the strength of F1 driver contracts. Hah.

;)

RIC was sold a lemon, but mainly because he was really eager to buy.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Why was he eager to buy?

Because the Renault engines let him down?!?!?

Or because he was out shined by his teammate?

[Rare White Ape]

I think you guys misunderstood my comment.

If Verstappen was truly great he would be #1 driver at Mercedes.

It means that if Verstappen was worth it then Merc would be moving mountains to get him on board. Contracts are incredibly flexible if your drivers are fast (or slow) enough.

Right now he’s in a championship winning team but not really doing anything to lift them out of their rut.

[JoeW]

I have also heard the Renault rumor as well as the rumor Alfa May pull out as well. Haas doesn’t look like a long term team either.

So what happens if a team like Renault bails? Do they court others to fill the spot? Do they just go on with fewer cars on the grid?

[FaultyMario]

Haas' publicity project is doing great. But in their short history they're pendulum team: one good year, one bad one. I don't see why they'd walk away from this. They're lucky Liberty is pushing for the U.S. market and they're the only "American" team.

They're doing so great that in fact the Bearded Gold Bull fiasco did nothing to them.

[dodint]

The continued employment of Grosjean really puts a damper in my ability to cheer for Haas. Tough to cheer on someone purposefully shooting themselves in the foot. It makes Steiner look very week which is amusing given his bravado.

[Blerpa]

The continued employment of Grosjean really puts a damper in my ability to cheer for Haas. Tough to cheer on someone purposefully shooting themselves in the foot. It makes Steiner look very week which is amusing given his bravado.

Problem with Haas is... Gene Haas.
Steiner is obeying orders. Draconian ones, as well.
Nothing worse than someone distant from F1 and F1 ways to be the one playing the decisional role.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I think you guys misunderstood my comment.

If Verstappen was truly great he would be #1 driver at Mercedes.

It means that if Verstappen was worth it then Merc would be moving mountains to get him on board. Contracts are incredibly flexible if your drivers are fast (or slow) enough.

Right now he’s in a championship winning team but not really doing anything to lift them out of their rut.

Contract negotiations are always in a background, who knows what's going to happen? Danny boy's move to be the #1 @ Renault also shocked the hell out of everybody.

I agree that if Max is really that good, he should be able to be the #1 at a top team, but we'll have to wait til Hamilton and Vettel retiring from the sport 1st. When that happens, there's no guarantee that Mercedes and Ferrari will continue to be the top 2 teams. RB could catch up... or pull out... who knows.

But I most certainly agree if you are as good as Senna or Hamilton, eventually, you should be able to find yourself as the #1 driver of a top F1 team. Such a move is absolutely necessary in order to become a multi-champ.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I have also heard the Renault rumor as well as the rumor Alfa May pull out as well. Haas doesn’t look like a long term team either.

So what happens if a team like Renault bails? Do they court others to fill the spot? Do they just go on with fewer cars on the grid?

I'm sure Renault would want to at least sell it to somebody so that they can recover part of their investment?

Alpha Romeo probably won't be missed that much since I'm sure Sauber will continue to be Sauber.

In times that these, we need more Lance Strolls and his rich daddy!

[FaultyMario]

I chuckled at the line about Albon. :lol:

They did put him on a 2-stopper in Mexico.

[FaultyMario]

Hoping for an Albon pole. I know, it's a long shot. but Q2 was good.

[Blerpa]

Q2, last lap: Verstappen again shows he has not matured.
Bombing inside like it's the last turn of the last lap of the race... "I think I've got inside their minds". No dude, you are an idiot.

[FaultyMario]

:lol:

[Tom Servo]

Pretty stoked that ESPN is moving things like practice and qualifying to their more obscure sub-channels like ESPN News and ESPN-U so I don't get to watch any of them anymore :/

[JoeW]

Albon still consistently at least a half sec behind Max everywhere they go. Top 5 guys would have to crash for Albon to get pole at this point.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Max needs more of Albons consistency and Albon needs more of Max’s raw speed and RB/Honda gets a little bit faster then the championship will be more interesting.

Gasly seemed to have improved quite a bit... but so far Albon is definitely the most consistent of them 3 drivers.

[JoeW]

Max has the consistency...if he could just get out of lap 1 incident free :)

I predict a win tomorrow.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I meant consistently score points from lap 1 to the end consistency! :p that’s something Albon has be pretty good at. I don’t think he’s the fastest RB driver, but he’s definitely the most consistent, more so than Max too.

[Blerpa]

Gasly seemed to have improved quite a bit... but so far Albon is definitely the most consistent of them 3 drivers.

The most consistent of them 4 drivers. There, fixed for ya.

[Blerpa]

On monday Nico Hulkenberg will officially announce his goodbye to F1 to move to DTM with BMW.
He will keep his options open in case a F1 team will take him in as a reserve driver, in lieu of a potential comeback in 2021.

[Crazed_Insanity]

The most consistent of them 4 drivers. There, fixed for ya.

Actually even as a super fanboy, no argument there! :p

[dodint]

Max has the consistency...if he could just get out of lap 1 incident free :)

I predict a win tomorrow.

Would be historic in that no one has ever won from outside the front row at COTA.

My money is on him colliding with a surging Hamilton in that tight T1, pushing the WDC to the next round.

[JoeW]

This is actually one of the biggest turn 1s. So they should be fine...I hope.

[dodint]

Really? It's a total bottleneck due to the sharp turn. Taking the outside is a long long way around. Will be shocked to not see some carnage there, imo.

[JoeW]

Some of the drivers were talking about after qualifying that it’s a huge t1 with several different lines through there.

[dodint]

*shrug*

Broadcast was just discussing it's 10 wide funneling into a 1.5 car wide apex. It will come down to driver discretion and maturity.

Lets see how Max does. :popcorn:

[dodint]

Whoop, wrong Red Bull. :lol:

[FaultyMario]

Still haven't seen what happened with Perez and Kvyat, but Perez was doing a great race until he let Norris past before he overtook Gasly, cos then he was caught by the leading train.

[JoeW]

Mag cost Max a 2nd place and possible win.