Formula E - The New Hotness?

[MR2 Fan]

I just started catching up on this...I was familiar with it when it started and was thinking it wouldn't last, but it seems like it's getting more popular.

The new car IMO looks great, and they have some interesting new features. There's an attack mode which lights up blue LED's around the halo to show drivers ahead of them that they have 25 more hp for a short time. There's also a "fan boost" where they poll fans to give 5 drivers a very short burst of speed.

https://autoweek.com/sites/default/files/styles/gen-932-524/public/fes5newyorkv21-jpg-254790-original.jpg

It's also interesting that the drivers do a short 3-4 second "intro" video at the bottom of the screen like your typical one, but if there's an incident during the race, they also filmed themselves being upset or sad, which is funny. So you'll be watching a car crash, then you'll see a "reaction" of the driver that they pre-recorded...silly, but unique.

The cars are all quite similar, so the racing is closer, and the tracks seem often to be a LOT narrower. The good thing about this season compared to previous ones is that the Gen 2 car can go the full race distance on a charge, whereas before they had to literally swap to a new car halfway through the race.

I'm excited that manufacturers are getting into this, because any battery improvements they make here will help electric cars on the road.

[Dicknose]

I think ideas like "fan boost" make it a bit of a joke, but it does aim it at a much younger audience.
Did I see something about getting more power if you take a wider line in a corner?

In the end it needs overtaking and exciting racing to make it successful.
And it is competing against F1, which has a long history, huge brand awareness and is rightfully considered the peak of 4 wheel motorsport.

[MR2 Fan]

The wider line is if you go to the Attack Zone, which is a several hundred meter part of the track that you drive through. Every driver has to use their attack zone twice per race, since you go off the racing line...it keeps it equal and strategy is needed.

[dodint]

The new hotness? No. It may mature into something eventually, right now it's gimmicky.

[JoeW]

What would be more funny is fan drain, where they pick a car to lose power in critical parts of the race.

[Rare White Ape]

Here’s last weekends race highlights, for those watching from the sidelines.


https://youtu.be/UOJVhcpZplY

Things it’s got going for it:

- it’s a big-dollar sport that’s attracting significant support from large companies
- this year’s cars are much better then the old ones
- spec chassis, but teams can develop their own engine/battery/regen setups
- unique racing ideas to make it fun to watch
- it’s got plenty of passing
- city streeet races in great locations
- recent and past F1 stars taking part (notably Massa)
- is the legit technological future of motor sport, especially F1 and Le Mans
- professional TV package that’s fully available on YouTube after the race

Things against it:

- limited interest among ‘traditional’ fans who shun electric cars
- not serious enough as a pure motor sport
- one day format, plus expensive street circuit construction makes it costly to host events, so requires continual backup from corporate funds
- questionable relevance to motor sport fans

I do hope it gains a foothold and becomes more popular. I’ve been watching the events a little bit this year, and I want them to come to Surfers to race alongside the SuperCars series! That would shake up the bogans somewhat :D

[Crazed_Insanity]

What would be more funny is fan drain, where they pick a car to lose power in critical parts of the race.

What a great idea! :lol:

Anyway, I like it because it keeps drivers employed. There are quite a few drivers I really think deserve F1 seats, but just couldn’t for whatever reasons... so it’s good to see them racing.

As for technical aspect of the sport, it’d be more awesome to see Tesla involved, or see these manufacturers actually putting serious EVs on the road. Right now it does seem gimmicky.

[dodint]

RWA keeps saying 'motor'; anyone want to tell him? *giggle*

[The359]

It does nothing for me. The street courses seem to have horrible, narrow layouts that just exacerbate the tendency that the drivers have to run into each other. The aerodynamics of the cars seem to be the opposite of what they need, the cars are so slow that it's just all for show.

A technological achievement, sure, but just not good racing. The reason so many manufacturers are involved is that it is so much cheaper to run a factory team in Formula E than it is in any other motorsport. Development cost is low to something like an LMP1.

[Rare White Ape]

If anything, development of electric cars is moving pretty quickly as compared to conventional ICE cars, so it won’t be long before they are fast enough to need slicks and bigger wings. At that time they might reduce battery capacities to keep speeds down.

[JoeW]

RWA keeps saying 'motor'; anyone want to tell him? *giggle*
He actually said engine. You blew your own punchline on that one :)

[Rare White Ape]

I said both :p

[dodint]

Yeah, he said 'motor sport' three times, not sure what more you want.

Formula E is clearly the new hotness in power unit sport for sure. Its main competition being drone racing.

[The359]

I mean, they do have electric motors...

[dodint]

Get off my lawn!

[Kchrpm]

I have some memory, maybe from R/C cars where having internal combustion and electric versions of similar vehicles was common, of engine being used for IC powerplants and motor for electric.

[dodint]

What I see happening is in 10-15 years F1 just goes full electric and Formula E either goes away entirely or becomes a feeder series. F1 can use those little engine bay speakers to keep the fans interested.

[MR2 Fan]

well they're both part of the FIA. The racing is closer in Formula E, but I agree the tracks they're using are bit too narrow.

Also, I do like the sound the motors make, feels futuristic to me. Now just have a race in Abu Dhabi and it will feel like the future

[Godson]

Too gimmicky for me, they run a fisheye lens to make the cars look like they are going faster than they are.

Next.

[Rare White Ape]

Its main competition being drone racing.

Drone racing is pretty sick. Requires sharp reflexes. Hard to watch, though.

Formula E has an equivalent with the FIM MotoE World Cup that will be a support race at five European rounds of MotoGP this year. There will be 18 bikes, all produced by Energica, a manufacturer of road legal electric bikes. They’ll produce 120kW, which is more powerful than the new Triumph Moto2 bikes. The races will be about half the length, however.

https://www.energicamotor.com/images/pages/motoe-4b.jpg

This is arguably more relevant to road motoring than Formula E, because the vast majority of the world’s passenger vehicles are small motorcycles. Electric engine tech needs to become ubiquitous among scooters and step-thrus, because that will cut road-borne air pollution significantly. But, it would also require a massive upgrade to electricity delivery networks in south east Asia and that’s a long time coming.

[Dicknose]

In terms of racing I think the MotoE would be closer in pace to MotoGP than the F-E to F1.
It also looks and feels like the "real thing" - even if it doesnt sound like it!

[Crazed_Insanity]

No way they’ll ever match the real thing. Just as horseless carriages would never match horse carriages! :p

Another gimmick F-E could add is allowing for autonomous teammates! Becoming test bed for those rich autonomous companies...

Considering how it has grown, I can foresee F-E surpassing F1 eventually. Even F1 has became hybrids. So natural conclusion for F1 will probably either become irrelevant or perhaps simply merge or take over F-E in about a decade or so?

[MR2 Fan]

There is plans for an autonomous racing series coming soon I believe....there was an autonomous car that went through Goodwood during the Festival of Speed. There's literally no cockpit at all

[Rare White Ape]

Billi, I believe the long-term plan for Formula E is for it to drive development of electric racing cars and eventually become one of many electric racing series. It won’t supplant F1, as that will turn into a E-category on its own in the coming decades. It’s meant to lead to a world where we eventually replace petrol powered racing with electric racing.

[Crazed_Insanity]

There is plans for an autonomous racing series coming soon I believe....there was an autonomous car that went through Goodwood during the Festival of Speed. There's literally no cockpit at all

It’d be awesome to have a series of some sort that can pit men against machines in a fair way. When machines can win drivers championships, then the world will probably be ready for them on public roads.

Such series would definitely get my attention.

[Rare White Ape]

Formula E fired up again this weekend in Saudi Arabia. The biggest news was Porsche joining the series, and they did well in the first race they entered.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQH0R97XAt4

In news separate from Formula E, Volkswagen has announced that they're fully withdrawing from all non-electric motorsport starting next year. So they're no longer in World Rally Cross, and they will wrap up production of the TCR Golf GTi.

Also, this is friggin cute and I really need to own one.

https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/media.brothers-brick.com/2019/10/Panasonic-Jaguar.jpg

[Blerpa]

WRC is in shambles (Citroen just abandoned it out of the blue), TCR is losing appeal even if it just started gaining steam, F1 is the usual quarrelling box, LeMans and WEC are the usual closed garden... meanwhile manufacturers are jumping into Formula E, along with some specialized brands (Venturi and so on).
Let's see how long some people will keep being blind (audience and some manufacturers - i.e.: FCA).
This is not to say I particularly like Formula E, since I don't like the too Nascar-ish spectacular way of presenting a race series and I loathe city circuits, but a pattern is emerging...

[dodint]

Yes, it's similar to pro wrestling. Lots of people and sponsors like it. Doesn't mean that I should.

[The359]

Manufacturers are jumping on Formula E because it costs a fraction of what any other World Championship costs, so it's an easy sell.

[MR2 Fan]

Plus having direct involvement with electric car racing may enhance their road car electric presence either by marketing or actual technology

[Freude am Fahren]

I wish they would say "Hey now that you all see that this is a viable series, we're going to expand to real circuits and race tires (but not the garbage Pirelli has in F1), and make for a more watchable series."

[Blerpa]

^^^ This.

[The359]

The street circuits thing is purely for marketing, they want to try and sell electric vehicles in urban settings. It's not likely to change any time soon.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I think the reason is probably more technical. EVs just can’t last very long if they’re going flat out all the time. Street circuits don’t go as fast and lots of regen braking can help the races last longer.

[Rare White Ape]

^ this is correct. The FE cars suit tighter circuits better than they do the faster open circuits, due mostly to battery power requirements. I could see them racing at tracks that have short variants, like Vallelunga. But that doesn’t mean they will, because marketing.

Speaking of which, I don’t think *anyone* watches FE. All of it would be heavily subsidised through sponsorship money. They don’t have a TV deal to pay for it all like F1 and MotoGP et al do, nor do they have a marquee race to hang the brand from, like the Indy 500 or 24 Hours of Le Mans. With everyone having the same chassis, the only thing manufacturers need to to do bring a team and their power units, and I think everything else is paid for by whoever is bankrolling the series.

I’ve seen lots of international series come and go because the money wasn’t there (anyone else remember A1GP?), but I think FE is different because there’s a strong forward-looking concept behind it. It might be viable to the series promoters because it could end up being sold to F1 once it starts becoming a self-sustaining series with its own fanbase. If the technology is robust enough, it could easily be absorbed into F1 or sportscar racing. I’m sure everyone out there would love to be able to attract that many manufacturers into their own series.

[FaultyMario]

I wonder if electric is more suited to the start/stop nature of street circuits. It's not that they correlate exactly, but a lot of EV specs I've looked at, they give a better range when used as commuters than in long hauls.

[Leon]

Street circuits = population base on doorstep, to whom you can sell tickets.

[FaultyMario]

Apart from that.

[dodint]

Keith watches it.

;)

[Blerpa]

They sell well in live spectators: at least the events in Italy have sold out easily, more than on tv.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Speaking of which, I don’t think *anyone* watches FE. All of it would be heavily subsidised through sponsorship money. They don’t have a TV deal to pay for it all like F1 and MotoGP et al do, nor do they have a marquee race to hang the brand from, like the Indy 500 or 24 Hours of Le Mans. With everyone having the same chassis, the only thing manufacturers need to to do bring a team and their power units, and I think everything else is paid for by whoever is bankrolling the series.

I’ve seen lots of international series come and go because the money wasn’t there (anyone else remember A1GP?), but I think FE is different because there’s a strong forward-looking concept behind it. It might be viable to the series promoters because it could end up being sold to F1 once it starts becoming a self-sustaining series with its own fanbase. If the technology is robust enough, it could easily be absorbed into F1 or sportscar racing. I’m sure everyone out there would love to be able to attract that many manufacturers into their own series.

Fwd looking/thinking... yes, but I can' help but thinking these races will be boring.

Forget about watching them on TV for now... at least to me, one of the main reasons of attending these auto racing events or monster trucks or air shows or rocket launches is the thunderous sounds!!!

EVs simply can't offer that.

Even when we're technically more capable in the future... can you imagine 33 cars speeding in excess of 200mph around Indianapolis Speedway quietly? With only wind noise, tire noises and perhaps some wheezing sound of electric motors?

That's gotta be some sort of damper on a supposedly festive spirit around the track, right?

Anyway, never been to an FE event so maybe I'm wrong. I love EVs, but I'm not sure how I'd love FE.

The only competition currently peaked my interest is the battle between Model S and Taycan on Nurburging.

Maybe NASCAR should invite Tesla and Porsche! :D

[Phil_SS]

Plus having direct involvement with electric car racing may enhance their road car electric presence either by marketing or actual technology

This times a million. And I'm surprised Tesla hasn't gotten involved for that reason. Maybe when they make a touring car style series.

And I agree with others. The noise of an ICE race car is the visceral effect that EV cannot provide.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Elon Musk just doesn't have extra cash to go racing... plus, there just aren't that many competition! :p

Porsche Taycan is probably the only worthy competitor?

I think Faraday Future sponsored a team in FE, but what would be the point of doing that if you can't even build your road car to sell? I've also heard although those FE cars have Faraday Future logo, the company didn't really fully fulfill their sponsorship obligations...

Anyway, we need more companies getting into the EV business, then we can probably have more viable racing series later on.

I think the main purpose for FE for now is probably to just keep some fairly talented drivers employed! :p

[MR2 Fan]

I actually like the high pitched whine of the Formula E cars

[Crazed_Insanity]

Maybe they can partner with speaker companies to design the most light weight and compact speakers with the lowest possible energy consumption, yet with the loudest sounds... to amplify the EV motor humming...

Maybe make it sound like TRON bikes or something... ;)

[Dicknose]

The sound of a racecar is great, but unless you are at the track its not that impressive on tv.
You could watch F1 on tv for years, but unless you heard them live you cant understand just how loud they are (a lot less now that say 15 years ago, but still loud)

So I dont think tv viewers, which is where the money is, would really care that much about the sound.

[Kchrpm]

Keith watches it.

;)

I have watched a few highlight packages on YouTube, I don't know if I've ever watched a whole broadcast.

[Rare White Ape]

Here's a nice video of this season's FE cars in testing. It's good to hear them with raw audio, so you can compare them to vacuum cleaners and electric forklifts :D


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHlqXfG78Rs&ab_channel=ABBFormulaE

[MR2 Fan]

I like the sound....get TIE Fighter or TRON Lightcycle vibes

[Rare White Ape]

They look hot too. The styling is among the best in open wheel design that I’ve ever seen.

[samoht]

Audi & BMW to leave Formula E
https://the-race.com/formula-e/audi-to-leave-formula-e-at-end-of-2021-season/
https://the-race.com/formula-e/bmw-announces-formula-e-departure-after-season-7/

I'm pretty surprised, I thought electric was the future for these big OEMs. Maybe Honda would like to join in? ;)

[FaultyMario]

Isn't BMW joining Nascar?

[Freude am Fahren]

WUT?

Would make sense seeing as how they seem to be run by someone on LSD right now.

[dodint]

BMW getting bored and leaving a premier Formula series? Nawwwww.

[JoeW]

Been watching the last few of these races. Do they ever race on dedicated race tracks as opposed to these made-up shitty street circuits?

[Rare White Ape]

Closest you’ll get is pre-season testing at Valencia. I don’t think they will ever take it to a normal road course.

[JoeW]

Disappointing. These narrow street tracks are awful for actual racing.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I think EVs need lots of braking to regenerate energy back to its battery. Stop and go traffic tend to give EVs the best ranges! Constant freeway travel isn’t as ideal for EVs. Faster you cruise, less range you’ll achieve because aero drag increases at a rate of Velocity ^2! I think worst track for F-E would be ovals. They probably won’t be able to go very far at such sustained high speeds without much braking… will probably take forever to complete the Indy 500! :D

Anyway, street circuits are for sure most ideal for EVs.

Unless they can somehow modify/electrify sausages curbs to be able to charge these FE cars thru the floor on the go, they’ll probably never be able to race on normal tracks.

[Rare White Ape]

Disappointing. These narrow street tracks are awful for actual racing.

That's the niche they are going for. Bring the clean electric racing to the city folk, rather than trying to get people to go see FE out in remote areas where tracks are located when race fans who DO are more likely to want to see traditional dinosaur-powered racing. Street circuits are more expensive to set up for one-day events but they can get away with this in-part by using carparks and multi-purpose precincts to make up some or all of their tracks, and the added exposure will be good for attracting advertising.

Plus the racing style and event format is more tailored around the electric cars, which really don't have that high of a top speed. They would look utterly pants at Spa or Monza and probably run slower lap times than an F4 car. Even when testing at Valencia, it's a shortened layout compared to what we see in MotoGP with half the front straight cut off. This year they upgraded to using the full Monaco GP track because they have a longer range than they did before, where previously they used a short version that took a hard right at turn 1 and met up with the chicane as a hairpin. They did look good on the full track, but that's a really tight F1 circuit that makes for a comparatively fast and open FE circuit.

I really want them to come to Surfers Paradise and run on the circuit here in the weekend before the Supercars race, but I doubt they want to be seen to be associated with a low-tech gas-guzzling event like our V8s proudly are :p

[Kchrpm]

They could potentially add temporary chicanes to dedicated tracks, but I believe the choice to run street circuits is based on bringing the product to potential consumers rather than having them travel to you. That's also why they include so many gimmicks, they're trying to appeal to a new audience in a new way. I don't know what the long term viability is of their current strategy, but they have shown the willingness to change it as technology allows.

And it's not like F1 and IndyCar aren't copying them by going to shitty street courses in populous cities lately just because some local government and/or company is willing to pay and promote.

[JoeW]

Well all that makes perfect sense.

I have never liked Bob Varsha as an announcer so hearing his voice on these races is quite unpleasant.

[FaultyMario]

I really want them to come to Surfers Paradise and run on the circuit here in the weekend before the Supercars race, but I doubt they want to be seen to be associated with a low-tech gas-guzzling event like our V8s proudly are :p

It'd be soooo cool to see them tackle Laguna Seca or the short course at Watkins Glen or a modified version of the historic American circuits.

Doesn't Phoenix have an infield course?

[JoeW]

Yeah that would be great. There are a few MotoGp courses that I have seen (that F1 doesn’t run) that are really nice and tight as well.

I kind of enjoy watching FE but I think it’s because I thought a decent track might present itself soon. All these tight street courses are just point and shoot. There are no alternative driving lines.

[Rare White Ape]

It'd be soooo cool to see them tackle Laguna Seca or the short course at Watkins Glen or a modified version of the historic American circuits.

Doesn't Phoenix have an infield course?

Laguna would be cool but its elevation might be a problem. Watkins Glen is way too fast.

Phoenix did have a tight infield course but it was redeveloped to focus on accommodating NASCAR when they reconfigured the oval.

A good bet could be the Sebring north course which skips the front and back stretch. They don’t do mid-race pit stops so the lack of pit lane would not be an issue.

Another option that comes to my mind is Franciacorta in Italy. Tight, flat, plenty of turns. Too Mickey Mouse for proper racing but probably just right for FE.

[JoeW]

Watched the Mexico race. New cars are faster for sure. No fan boost gimmicks. Good to see them at a F1 track to start off.

[Rare White Ape]

I'll have to check it out.

[FaultyMario]

I read that the new-for-this-year Hankooks are a bit Flintstone and that, plus some brake issues, made the new cars slower in the 2 of the three sectors that they shared with the Gen 2s.

Feelers from journos on site were that the Gen3 are already more pleasing to watch than F3s. Hopefully their development can make them reach F2 levels of performance at some venues.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Just checked out the race highlight on youtube. At the start of the race, I couldn't tell if it's real life or a video game! ;) Testament to how amazing video games are nowadays...

Anyway, I'm surprised that they don't have rear wings anymore? Just rear fins? It's also cool to be able to hear tire/rubber sounds as they turn!

If they can now run on normal F1 tracks, I suppose that's a huge improvement.

[FaultyMario]

Crazy that a 'minor' bump would cause multiple fractures to Robin Frijns' arm.

[JoeW]

It’s not full Mexico F1 track…shortened version.

You can see them struggling to put power down coming out of corners. Which is great. The more wiggly the better :)

[Rare White Ape]

Anyway, I'm surprised that they don't have rear wings anymore? Just rear fins? It's also cool to be able to hear tire/rubber sounds as they turn!

Aero balance as compared to available grip levels, I'd imagine. Plus novel ways to produce downforce. Have you seen the Peugeot 9X8 hypercar that is running Le Mans this year? No rear wing at all.

If you think no rear wing is crazy, then you'll be blown away by late-70s/early-80s F1 cars that had no front wings.

[Crazed_Insanity]

That Peugeot is gorgeous!

Anyway, I’m assuming no rear wing should also mean less aero disturbances and that should mean easier passing? New FE cars doesn’t look like they’re hard to pass based on the YouTube highlight I saw, but perhaps a bit hard to steer? Or perhaps drivers are just too weak? :p

Hope this new series can really catch on and eventually help develop new tech for future EVs.

[JoeW]

It might as well be a spec series. Cars seem identical. You won't see cars blasting past one another on the straight. Most passing is done on the brakes. I imagine most of the racing is done in the onboard computer that manages your power efficiency. If you use too much too early you need to back off later in the race. Or save early and push later. One guy ran out of power going across the line last race.

I wish there was more leeway in individual designs. With all the cars being basically identical there isn't a lot of passing. But they are very close together the majority of the time. Then they have the allotted power boosts during the race...but honestly it doesn't seem to make a ton of difference. Even when under power boost you don't see guys blowing past other guys.

I will continue to watch....would like to see either power or less grip or both. Let's see some car control so it looks like they are driving on the ragged edge.

[Crazed_Insanity]

EV market is still relatively small... and the world's biggest EV maker isn't even involved in Formula E yet... so can't really expect a whole lot of money being poured into this at the moment. Frankly I'm already pretty impressed with what they have so far.

When the day comes for FE cars to be able to run on the same F1 tracks and the distances, that's probably when majority of cars on earth will be EVs...

Whatever limitations we see on track now, these same limitations will apply on the road.

Hopefully as this series stabilizes and grows, it'll truly become a R&D playground for EVs. Refueling or recharge time ought to be included as part of the race! :p Improving this tech will be more effective than banning ICEs if we want the mass to truly and willingly adopt EVs. If it's not better and cheaper, conversion will likely be slow...

Anyway, based on the highlights I saw, I thought the race went pretty well. The main thing lacking seems to be some of the drivers... They don't have any star drivers, right? Star drivers still gravitate toward F-1.

[JoeW]

So I’m watching the FE race in Monaco. So much better racing than F1 at the same track. The cars are half the size of F1 and it makes for some great 3 wide action.

First time I’ve been able to see them at a F1 venue before. FE just does Monaco much better and it highlights the need to get F1 cars back to a smaller size.

[Yobbo NZ]

Also one noticeable thing. They can pass each other!
Yeah F1 cars are far too big now.
Nick Cassidy, in my opinion, deserves an F1 test drive at least. Maybe the 2nd Toro Rosso seat...

[MR2 Fan]

Agreed F1 cars are too big now. Do we know the reason why they're so large these days? It's not due to engine size, that's for sure!

[Kchrpm]

I just watched a video comparison on the F1TV app comparing the current F1 and IndyCars, and they say that F1 cars are currently so long (longer than IndyCars, which I did not realize) for aerodynamic purposes.

[FaultyMario]

Agreed F1 cars are too big now. Do we know the reason why they're so large these days? It's not due to engine size, that's for sure!

2 reasons:

The PU and its ancilliaries are more comfortably packaged lengthwise.
A longer car is a more stable platform for giving the cars their aero fix.

IMHO, those are two good reasons to chop off a meter of total length and another half a meter of wheelbase.

Formula 1s are wasted aero junkies, it's long past intervention time, they needed to go cold turkey yesterday.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Cold turkey is too damn hard!

Maybe they could have a new sprint race format? Let the F-1 drivers duke it out in identically prepared go-kart or whatever race cars that's smaller and without aero devices. Points will only be award in driver's championships and not alter the manufacturer's points of course! :p

If the sprint show is more exciting to watch, then maybe F-1 will finally be motivated enough to alter rules to make their car's smaller and more raceable?