Sporty Used car under $5-7k for my son

[JoeW]

So we are faced with the fact we want to get our son something reasonable for his 16th come April-May.

Looking for recommendations for something he won't be embarrassed to drive to school, dates etc. Also good on gas, insurance, reliability etc etc.

Here are some of the cars I can think of off the top of head, any further recommendations are much appreciated. Budget is as cheap as possible...preferably below $5k.

WRX, RSX, TSX, Integra, GTI, Golf, Jetta, Civic, Prelude, Mazda 3/6, A4, A3, TT, Impreza...

I would say Miata, Beetle stuff but they just scream girl's cars. And tiny convertibles are probably shit on insurance. But if any of you have experience on this subject...could use any help ;)

[FaultyMario]

Anything wrong with a Yaris or a Corolla/Matrix?, they seem to be in the price range...

Do kids these days pay attention to car audio and stuff?, maybe a Crutchfield gift card could sweeten the deal

Edit: Did you forget to mention Scions? I think the TC is perfectly adequate for what you describe.

[George]

During a quick peek at the Tampa CL, this one caught my eye, as a satisfied former owner/co-owner of three Accords, two of which had over 200K miles.

HONDA ACCORD E X 2D COUPE - $4,500 (https://tampa.craigslist.org/pnl/cto/d/clearwater-honda-accord-x-2d-coupe/7219167167.html)

Con: Automatic and paint is faded (top of rear bumper, etc.)

Pro: "Perfect carfax" and only 110K miles

https://images.craigslist.org/00y0y_2WjAWecMDoF_0x20oM_600x450.jpg

I'll be watching this thread. I have three and a half years yet, but it's fun (and terrifying) to think about.

[Jason]

Miatas are awesome and fun, the whole "girl's car" thing is stupid.

[JoeW]

It should probably have some storage capability for his Lacrosse bag etc. Convertibles are just another problem to worry about as well. Who knows who will slash it open and steal something.

[XHawkeye]

I'd be shocked if a Gen 6 Honda Accord didn't have a faded rear bumper.

My only 2 cents is to buy Japanese, old EU stuff is buying a hand grenade with the pin already pulled.

[Freude am Fahren]

E90/92 BMW 335i?

Might take some doing to find that price, but he can have some fun and still impress the ladies :D

[Godson]

How sporty, and what sort of restrictions besides price?

[JoeW]

Well just imagine you’re a parent buying their kid their first car. You don’t want the insurance to kill you any more than it already is. You don’t want him to have so much power that he wants to drag race all the time. You want fuel mileage, practicality, some cool factor, reliability and not break the bank. You also want him to be proud of his ride.

Those are the parameters :)

[neanderthal]

W124 Mercedes.

Safe as a house. Not anything anyone will want to race. But a solid do anything car.

[JoshInKC]

Saab?

Or second Neanderthal - w123 - more style, but more slower.

[Yw-slayer]

I love my subes, but now that I'm older, I am glad that I didn't get a turbo model until my mid-20s. Civic, Mazda3,or MX-5 (can get a hardtop) would be my pick. Or maybe an IS200...

[TheBenior]

In my experience, a Miata is going to have higher insurance rates than a boring model Civic or Mazda3, but lower than an RSX, WRX, GTI, etc. The latter sport compacts get stolen from and wrecked more often.

[Yw-slayer]

So, Civic or Mazda3 then. I mean, can't really go wrong.

[MR2 Fan]

Scion tC is a good choice, hatchback, decent power, manual transmission and torquey since they're a larger 4cyl (2.4L)

I owned a first gen for many years, it was a great car

[balki]

A lot of good suggestions here, would like to add the GD (2007-2008) Honda Fit:

It scored the lane-change number of 71.4 mph for Car and Driver magazine. It's probably the most responsive car I've driven that was stock (without any of the danger of a AW11 MR2 or FB RX-7) and feels faster than it actually is.
It fits four adults comfortably and meets your fuel mileage, practicality, reliability and not break the bank parameters (probably even more so than any other car mentioned). If he's a little quirky then it does have some cool factor, otherwise it just looks like a small minivan and it'll be a big, fat NO.

[JoeW]

Yeah some good options...with the exception of the ancient Mercedes :)

I probably will rule out any manufacturers that have little to no presence in the US like Saab or Mitsubishi. Convertibles are probably out as well due to the ease of illegal entry and/or costly vandalism. Keying a car is one thing but ripping a hole in the top would be quite costly and a pita.

Probably ruling out the WRX as they seem to be quite expensive for even older ones. Also many of the cars on the list seem to be hard to find unmolested.

I definitely enjoy the process of narrowing it down :)

[Yw-slayer]

Just don't buy a mid-2000s C55. ;)

[Godson]

IS250

[JoeW]

IS250 looks good. Impreza/WRX still in the running as well. Probably can’t go wrong with any Toyota, Subaru or Honda creations.

[Yw-slayer]

Yes, I said IS200 but realise you probably didn't get that. 250, 300, all good and probably slightly less likely to get him in trouble than a WRX.

[JoeW]

Yeah. Maybe a non WRX Impreza RS 2.5? Or the next body style Impreza as well.

[Godson]

I'd look at the Lexus based on something that would feel and look really nice, and would be pretty much carefree. Subarus work, but are just kinda.... There.

[Phil_SS]

I would be surprised if any WRX would be reasonable from an insurance standpoint. They get stolen or broken into a shit ton and they have horrible reputations for being boy racer cars.

A base model Impreza wouldn’t be bad but I agree that they aren’t anything special, especially since you live in Florida.

That Accord coupe that George posted is pretty cool and would be the kind of car I would look for.

And BTW, I think a Prius is pretty cool.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I’d just get him something new if reliability is one of your concerns...

And how about this, instead of asking us, why not let your son do some research or perhaps he already has a dream car in mind?

Tell him you’d offer to pay $5000 down and he’ll have to figure out the monthly payments himself... or he could just get a $5000 used car that he likes and leave it at that.

Of course you have the final say... if it looks like he’s going to make a $5000 mistake, you don’t have to go along with that..., but kids are smart. A lot of them already know what they want.

If your son doesn’t even want a car, you save $5000!

[neanderthal]

Well just imagine you’re a parent buying their kid their first car. You don’t want the insurance to kill you any more than it already is. You don’t want him to have so much power that he wants to drag race all the time. You want fuel mileage, practicality, some cool factor, reliability and not break the bank. You also want him to be proud of his ride.

Those are the parameters :)

I'm NOT a parent so I can say this as I have no relevant experience. I've been told this numerous times. But I know myself, and should i sire a pup or two I will not feel compelled to spoil them.

Parent; Here is this jalopy that you can drive to get you to the places you want to go. I know you wanted the Allmoto Meteorite 3000 with the 500hp vee eleventeen. That's great. You can buy yourself one when you pay for it and pay for it's insurance, fuel, and tires. If you don't like the jalopy here's a bus pass for the month. And don't ask me to take you anywhere.

[neanderthal]

Yeah some good options...with the exception of the ancient Mercedes :)

I probably will rule out any manufacturers that have little to no presence in the US like Saab or Mitsubishi. Convertibles are probably out as well due to the ease of illegal entry and/or costly vandalism. Keying a car is one thing but ripping a hole in the top would be quite costly and a pita.

Probably ruling out the WRX as they seem to be quite expensive for even older ones. Also many of the cars on the list seem to be hard to find unmolested.

I definitely enjoy the process of narrowing it down :)

For a first car, I generally recommend cars that no driver in their right mind would want to race (I normally recommend the W123 diesels in fact) and that will be safe in a collision. I don't recommend for style, speed, cool factor. Not for a first car.

[JoeW]

Well I will say that red blooded teenage males will race and explore the limits of anything with a motor and wheels :)

I had some shitty vehicles and I beat the shit out of all of them.

I plan to spend as little as possible on reliable, decent looking transportation so he can get to a job, school, dates, fun and life in general. Get him started and the rest is up to him.

[Cam]

Miatas are awesome and fun, the whole "girl's car" thing is stupid.
Yeah.

Here's an option. :D https://columbia.craigslist.org/cto/d/sumter-saab-for-sale-as-is/7222760238.html

And, oh, lookie here. https://columbia.craigslist.org/cto/d/columbia-1995-chevrolet-z28-camaro/7226501680.html

[JoshInKC]

That saab seems like a great buy for $800 - Then you could spend the remaining $4200 on fixing it up.

[Phil_SS]

https://tampa.craigslist.org/pnl/cto/d/saint-petersburg-2000-acura-integra/7219187079.html

https://tampa.craigslist.org/pnl/ctd/d/clearwater-2010-honda-civic-lx-2dr/7219458681.html

https://tampa.craigslist.org/pnl/cto/d/clearwater-honda-accord-x-2d-coupe/7219167167.html

https://tampa.craigslist.org/hil/cto/d/wimauma-2003-accord-coupe-ex/7226210927.html

https://tampa.craigslist.org/psc/cto/d/port-richey-2005-honda-accord-ex/7224212162.html

https://tampa.craigslist.org/hil/ctd/d/lutz-2001-honda-prelude-great-service/7221802770.html

https://tampa.craigslist.org/pnl/cto/d/saint-petersburg-1993-honda-del-sol-si/7213168934.html

My favorite is the Accord EX Coupe for $4500. Just looks really clean and well maintained. And there is a shitload of nice clean cars in your area. In my area, all cars of this age have suffered under the broad foot of the rocksalt monster.

[Phil_SS]

Well?

[George]

*checks calendar*

[JoeW]

Still got a few months before making the serious search...

[neanderthal]

How about a future classic? I can't think of anything right now that I think will appreciate in value other than an S2000 (already appreciating, but also way out of your price range.)

I'd stay away from any Subarus. Not because there is anything wrong with them, but because just about any Subie can be modified with a hi po engine from another Subie. Then he's got and is racing with 350 hp instead of 127 hp.

Honda Element? Practical for camping, biking, kayaking, dogs, etc.

[JoeW]

I love S2000s but they are definitely not in price range.

[JoeW]

Revisiting this as he is finally entering the workforce and will need to stop borrowing our 4Runner.

I have let him start looking for ideas on Autotrader etc so he can kind of figure what he might be interested in...within the parameters I have set ;)

Obviously going to be a higher mileage car, but well taken care of. Here are some of the ones he likes...any red flags on these as far as reliability or major problem areas to look for?

Most of these will be mid-late 2000's or possibly early 2010's: Miata 2nd or 3rd Gen, Acura TL, TLX, TSX (and accord variants), IS250/300/350, Sub Legacy 2.5/Impreza 2.0, Focus SE, Mazda 3i/6i, G37, Fusion.

Trying to keep it under $6-7k.

[Yw-slayer]

Based on what I know about US and Floridian roads and conditions (absolutely nothing other than being a passenger in some car maybe 30 years ago) - Acura and Accord variants or Mazda 3/MX-5 I would have thought.

[dodint]

If you want to spend half that I have a really well-maintained TrailBlazer I can sell you.

[JoeW]

Mmmmm...so tempting... ;)

[dodint]

Hey, you won't have to worry about getting any speeding tickets.

[Godson]

Rx8?

[George]

Watching with interest. Good luck Joe.

I just hit the Tampa CL and put $7000 in as the max price. This was one of the first on the list. :eek:

2004 Porsche Cayenne - $3,750 (Town and Country, Tampa) (https://tampa.craigslist.org/hil/cto/d/tampa-2004-porsche-cayenne/7580618573.html)

https://images.craigslist.org/01313_6dtnNNHrAe8_0CI0t2_600x450.jpg

[CudaMan]

Interesting mix of cars, I don't know all of them well but it seems to me a solid well-maintained example of any of those should be a reasonable first car. I would guess that your son doesn't know yet what his automotive preferences are due to relative lack of experience?

A G37 in that price range is likely to be a high mileage (not necessarily a big concern), automatic Journey package car, possibly with a salvage title. Though with falling used car prices, you might find a deal. There's really only a few gotchas on these cars aside from the typical used car wear items.

1) Oil galley gaskets on the pre-2013 models is the biggest one, you have to update two gaskets behind the timing cover to keep oil pressure where it should be (the paper gaskets fail between 50k-100k miles usually).
2) Rear differential subframe bushing is fluid filled and leaks when old. Nissan/Infiniti will only sell it as part of the complete subframe, which is obviously cost prohibitive. A shop can install a polyurethane aftermarket bushing pretty easily.
3) Sunroof drains can get clogged and you end up with water on the carpet. Again not an expensive fix but there's more than a bit of labor involved.

Other than that they're pretty darn dependable vehicles. Can he avoid the urge of bagging it and putting red headlights on it if he makes friends with other young G owners? :lol:

If it matters to you, these things aren't slow. Quarter mile in the high 13s stock.

[JoeW]

Yeah the high hp cars will likely be more expensive to insure…which we are trying to avoid.

I like the RX8 idea but I hear they aren’t reliable so I just left it out.

350Z/G37 will likely be high insurance.

He seems to not want any truck/suv/van/family car devices :)

So we’ll see. He actually likes the Miata too. But the 3rd Gen might be on the pricey side.

[Godson]

Rx8s do have questionable reliability, especially on ones that haven't had good oil change intervals. Good news is, engines are cheap. ;).

[Phil_SS]

https://tampa.craigslist.org/pnl/ctd/d/largo-1993-lexus-sc-sc-400-sport-coupe/7577513990.html

https://tampa.craigslist.org/psc/cto/d/hudson-1989-camaro-iroc/7576507933.html <------requires a mullet

[Godson]

I want to love that iroc, but anything that even resembles a carb makes my head fucking spin like the poltergeist.

[Leon]

Miata is smashing the easy button. First car, I'd go with something like that. Not too powerful, reliable, low maintenance.

[Yw-slayer]

Plus rents can always borrow the MX5, amirite

[retsmah]

I've been shopping RSX Type S / TSX for motor swap donor cars, around here I think you'd probably be looking at a base model RSX if you wanted something with not too high mileage that falls under $7k.

I picked up a 2014 Hyundai Accent back in 2017 so I wouldn't have an MR2 and Ninja as my only vehicles. An Accent / Veloster of that vintage is maybe worth considering. The Accent has a 138hp direct injected 1.6l and a six speed manual, it's not too fast but a pretty fun little car to drive. Back then I got one with 58k miles for $5500, I'd imagine that would be more expensive now, but you'd probably get something lower mileage than most of the other options discussed here that won't require much maintenance, and they get pretty good fuel economy.

[Godson]

Oh, I just had a thought, ~'04 Celica GTS

[Phil_SS]

2013 Cadillac ATS (https://tampa.craigslist.org/psc/ctd/d/hudson-2013-cadillac-ats/7581231798.html)

2013 Focus ST (https://tampa.craigslist.org/pnl/ctd/d/largo-2013-ford-focus-st-meticulous/7580699183.html)

Other options, Volvo C30, Golf GTi,

[Crazed_Insanity]

The original TSX (<2008) is pretty much a 4 door S2000! That'd be my recommendation :up:

If he wants something sportier, then the RSX?

Actually if I'm getting it for my son, I'd probably just go for a regular Accord.

Anyway, I think used car market is going down... so the longer you wait the better. :p

[George]

Miata is smashing the easy button. First car, I'd go with something like that. Not too powerful, reliable, low maintenance.

My son wants a Miata, and specifically a '94 - '97 NA8. He has a Flyin' Miata (https://flyinmiata.com/) calendar on his wall and we can't pass one on the street or parked without him pointing them out and identifying the model/year/features. I don't think a Miata would be a suitable winter car at all. He says, "but Dad, we'll get a second set of wheels and snow tires!" We, huh? :rolleyes: And he has a whole list of modifications he thinks he'll somehow be able to afford. I was the exactly the same way with VW Beetles at his age - bought Hot VWs magazine at the newsstand, read the classified ads in the paper every morning at breakfast, had posters of their famous 1960s ads on my wall, etc.

I think my wife finally told him "you are NOT getting a Miata" this weekend because now he can't stop talking about the Subaru Impreza 2.5 RS. She thinks Miatas aren't safe. I have remained interested in what he likes but I occasionally remind him he needs to start earning and saving money or this is all just talk. And he did apply for one job last summer at a sandwich shop who said they were hiring 14-year-olds, but he didn't get the job. I think he'll have better luck once he turns 15 this Spring.


lus rents can always borrow the MX5, amirite...

My son has been using that on me like this: "But Dad, if we get a car before I'm 16, you could enjoy driving it to work! You'll have fun with the manual transmission and a Miata/Subaru/whatever will get much better mileage than you get now..."

I've always said the kid will grow up to be either a salesman or a Terminator.

He doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And he absolutely will not stop.

Ever.

Until you are dead give in or successfully postpone the discussion/decision. :lol:

[retsmah]

Actually this is almost identical to the Hyundai I've got, a little higher mileage than I'm currently at: https://tampa.craigslist.org/pnl/ctd/d/palm-harbor-hyundai-accent-speed-manual/7578296710.html

Anyway a little outside the type of cars you've listed. My first car was a 1991 Civic Si with 108hp, at the time I bought that a hatchback with 138hp and a six speed manual would have sounded quite sporty!

[Crazed_Insanity]

Miatas are great little cars, but I do agree it's probably not only not the safest, but also not very practical as the only car. Just as my S2000 was never my 'only' car. Every so often I will need to use my 1990 standard Civic Hatch with only 4 speed and 70HP to move stuffs. :p That was my 1st car and got it to nearly 300,000 miles before I finally sold it...

Anyway, after we sold our 2007 TSX, we have not bought a 'car' since mostly due to safety reasons. With so many freaking SUVs on the road, I do kinda feel unsafe driving a lower riding 'car' with the 'family'.

Also regarding Koreans cars, I'm really beginning to like them more than Japanese cars... Ever since I've switched to Hyundai/Kia, I really have no intention to turn back to Hondas. However, the main problem with cheap Korean cars is that stupid tic toc challenge which kids have learned to quickly steal those korean cars for joyriding... so as good as those little cars are, you probably don't want to buy them now because they're so easy to steal. Of course the higher end push button with immobilizer can be easy to steal too, but the thieves need to upgrade their equipment... and I'm assuming when thieves want higher end cars to steal, they'll probably ignore my Kia/Hyundai SUVs...

So many things to consider...

Maybe you can just tell him the budget and lay down some ground rules (like which cars are off the table) and then just let the kid learn to make his own decision?

[retsmah]

When I was shopping subcompacts I was originally looking at the Fit, but my option ended up being buy a three year old Hyundai with 58k miles, or for the same price buy a 10 year old Fit with 140k miles. In a lot of cases think the Japanese brands resale values are too high to be a good deal second hand.

And then on top of that the Hyundai has more power, better fuel economy, and a nicer interior.

Also it's worth checking if a model you are looking at is actually impacted by the Hyundai/Kia no immobilizer issue. It doesn't always make sense which cars have a problem. The accent is impacted from like 2015-2021 or something, mine from 2014 does have an immobilizer.

Also if you get a manual I feel like you're safe from kids stealing your car!

[Yw-slayer]

George. Your child has a point. Embrace it.

- The Guy who plans to teach his kids manual on his BRZ

[Crazed_Insanity]

When I was shopping subcompacts I was originally looking at the Fit, but my option ended up being buy a three year old Hyundai with 58k miles, or for the same price buy a 10 year old Fit with 140k miles. In a lot of cases think the Japanese brands resale values are too high to be a good deal second hand.

And then on top of that the Hyundai has more power, better fuel economy, and a nicer interior.

Also it's worth checking if a model you are looking at is actually impacted by the Hyundai/Kia no immobilizer issue. It doesn't always make sense which cars have a problem. The accent is impacted from like 2015-2021 or something, mine from 2014 does have an immobilizer.

Also if you get a manual I feel like you're safe from kids stealing your car!

I did not realize Hyundai/Kia went cheap starting starting on 2015? They had immobilizers before?!?!?

Anyway, yeah, stick shift should also be a nice deterrent for younger thieves. :D

[retsmah]

It depends again on the specific make/model, that year range is just for the Hyundai Accent. I think it has something to do with the introduction of push button start, at least on the Accent. The issue only applies to Accents after 2015 without push button start, before 2015 push button start was not an option. The 2015+ cars with the push button start have an immobilizer as you'd expect.

So anyway I don't know that anything Kia/Hyundai is really on the table for this particular thread, but if it is just check that Make/Model/Year specifically. It's not universal that it must be after 2022 to not have an issue.

Also, I know for sure all RSX/TSX models we're discussing have immobilizers because it's one of the PITA things you have to deal with if you want to swap the engine into another car!

[TheBenior]

It's 2011-2021 Kias and 2015-2021 Hyundais without push button start.

[retsmah]

Sorry Kia's!

Although my friend has a Kia Soul in that age range that got broken into recently, they messed up the ignition column but couldn't actually figure out how to steal it. So I guess the tiktok tutorials aren't bulletproof!

[Phil_SS]

I think my wife finally told him "you are NOT getting a Miata" this weekend because now he can't stop talking about the Subaru Impreza 2.5 RS. She thinks Miatas aren't safe. I have remained interested in what he likes but I occasionally remind him he needs to start earning and saving money or this is all just talk. And he did apply for one job last summer at a sandwich shop who said they were hiring 14-year-olds, but he didn't get the job. I think he'll have better luck once he turns 15 this Spring.

He doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And he absolutely will not stop.

Ever.

Until you are dead give in or successfully postpone the discussion/decision. :lol:

As cars nuts, Weren't we all like that? :D :?

That being said, good luck with 2.5RS search. They have firmly moved into the collector car market and even regular GC8 chassis Imprezas are extremely hard to find. Most of them were eaten by the tin worm.

[George]

Weren't we all like that?

Yup.


"Hey Dad, check out that '66 Beetle! You can tell it's a '66 because that was the only year they had a 1300 badge on the engine lid!"

It's so funny to see kids doing the exact same things we did. I see it at their high school and athletic events and just whenever ours are with other kids. Kids are kids, whether they have a slingshot or a smart-phone in their back pockets.

[JoshInKC]

There's your answer!
Get him a Karmann Ghia - Sports car & Beetle all in one!
It'd be a cool car for a teen, but only marginally fast enough to get into trouble. And probably a fun weekend project for the 2 of you - He'd certainly learn about maintaining things, and you'll look very cool showing him how to change the alternator belt with a screwdriver while it's running.

[Crazed_Insanity]

That sparked my interest..., but after a quick google...

Average Karmann Ghia selling price is actually: $23,463!!!:eek:

Found one for $9,000, but it's not in running condition.

https://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/3968e7a9-7734-479c-b388-3a43bca74fbe/

[Phil_SS]

That sparked my interest..., but after a quick google...

Average Karmann Ghia selling price is actually: $23,463!!!:eek:

Yeah, any vehicle that was built 15+ years ago that has any kind of style or performance costs a decent amount. Gone are the days of a decent runner being 5k.....decent runners are now 20k.

[George]

Karmann Ghias were rare, expensive, and almost exotic compared to Beetles in the early/mid '80s. I'm sure the affordability gap has widened exponentially since then.


...you'll look very cool showing him how to change the alternator belt with a screwdriver while it's running.

That's an achievement I haven't unlocked yet, but I have driven a Beetle home with a broken throttle cable and, on a different occasion, with a broken clutch cable. :D

[Crazed_Insanity]

What?!?!? :twitch:

So you were able to 'MacGyver' up some sort of 'digital' drive by wire system by pulling on them with your fingers or something? :lol:

Please do tell how you did it!

[JoshInKC]

That sparked my interest..., but after a quick google...

Average Karmann Ghia selling price is actually: $23,463!!!:eek:

Found one for $9,000, but it's not in running condition.

https://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/3968e7a9-7734-479c-b388-3a43bca74fbe/

FUCK OFF!
Not you, but the idea of $24k for Karmann Ghia. I literally almost spit my coffee out.

[JoshInKC]

'digital' drive by wire system!
That got an actual guffaw out of me.

Also, the VW belt change for those unaware:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQhfcdQf1QA

[JoeW]

I haven’t been able to get on this site for over a week. My phone or PC wouldn’t work. Figured the site was down until I finally PMd Cuda on the GTPlanet site and he said it was fine. Narrowed it down to rebooting the router and here I am again.

He’s really angling for a Miata. I ain’t mad at it. I just let him know that he’s used to borrowing our 4Runner where he can just throw stuff in the back. What if you want to go fishing? Where will you put the pole? “I’ll just stick it out the window.” Sigh…

IS250s are nicer all around. And can be found mid with 150k at 6-7k. 3rd Gen Miatas are generally more. But less to insure…go figure.

Acura TL, TSX are nice looking. But in this price range lots of abused teen cars.

Finding a stock anything is the hard part. MR2 way too pricey. Lots of cars with bad interior or paint.

Love the ones that say nothing wrong, only needs a few things fixed. Apparently nothing wrong means something different to me.

[dodint]

"Bone stock....cold air intake w/matching tune and aftermarket wheels..."

[George]

I haven’t been able to get on this site for over a week.

I can’t get the site to load at all on PC since late last week, I think. It does load on my Ubuntu machine but not Windows 10. I’m posting this from my phone, which I usually don’t do since a monitor and a keyboard make it so much easier. Mentioning it in case anyone is keeping score of such things because I’ve read a few posts lately about forum weirdness.


What if you want to go fishing? Where will you put the pole? “I’ll just stick it out the window.” Sigh…

My son and I have had that same conversation about going skiing in a Miata.

I guess us Dads have just learned to be practical but the boys aren’t concerned with such trivialities. Don’t think; just go! Ahh, to be young again.

Love that belt-changing video, Josh. I’ll tell my broken cable stories when I can use a keyboard instead of a smart-phone.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I was wondering what happened to the severed member... this thread sorta took on a life of its own without the OP...

Anyways, I guess one could add a trunk rack onto cars like Miata/S2000 and make them more practical?

http://revo-rack.com/language/en/mazda-mx5-ski-rack/

I love it when you add a snowboard to it... Makes it look like a rear wing. :D Still, is it really that practical to drive a RWD car on snowy conditions?

Anyway, seriously, if I'm the one financing this purchase, I'd put the foot down saying that Miatas are out due to safety reasons. (Especially dealing with a son, I know how crazy I can drive with a 70hp Civic... imagine the trouble I'd get into with a more powerful RWD sports car... not to mention there are so many SUVs on the road now...) My son can buy his own Miata with his own money later on. Luckily I have no sons to worry about. :p

[JoeW]

We are going to go out and sit in some cars so he can get a feel for the different options. He’s 6ft so he very well may find a Miata just won’t accommodate him. We’ll see. I personally am a fan of the IS250 also because most of the ones I see aren’t modded out by youngster drivers.

We’ll see. How is the weather sealing on Miata tops? Is this something to be concerned with?

[Phil_SS]

IS250 would be a damn nice first car. :)

[JoeW]

Some high mileage 2007-9 examples around here in decent shape in the $6-7 range.

As far as accessing this site...I couldn't get on here for about a week. On any of my devices at home. I left the house yesterday and while I was waiting somewhere I tried it on my phone and it worked. When I got home on the home network it stopped working again. So I knew it was a router issue. But why only this site? Very odd.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Maybe it’s a built in security feature of your router or internet provider? Thinking that this site is unsafe?

I have on occasions been blocked specifically for this site when logged on to company network. I thought perhaps some admin banned me for being so annoying, but it’s just an intermittent problem. Refresh can often times remedy this…

Anyhoo, I like the old IS, I’m surprised kids don’t modify and rice up that car more than the TSX?!?!?

[TheBenior]

The general consensus with Miata room is NC>NA>NB, but in cars this snug, the way your height is distributed (long of torso vs long of leg) can make a noticeable difference.

That being said, IS250 are not known for interior roominess. They've got 0.8" more measured legroom, but 0.2" less headroom than an NC Miata. I had a 6'2" co-worker who wanted to get an IS until he sat in one.

[JoeW]

Time to go out and put some butts in seats ;)

What do you think of Audi 6cyl cars like A4 and A6 3.2?

[Godson]

I'd rather be seen in a yugo. ;).

[Crazed_Insanity]

I like the looks of Audis but I can imagine they’d be expensive to maintain and keep…

[JoeW]

Yeah...not really a consideration.

[TheBenior]

FWIU, the V6 cars had fewer issues than the 4 cylinders. 1.8T were known for eating coil packs, and the first several years of the 2.0T FSI will have the cam follower wear out and wreck the camshafts if not checked/replaced. The IS38 turbo in Audi S3 and Golf R models is known for failing more often than the smaller IS20 in the A3 and GTI, but the R/S3 are going to be out of your price range anyway.

[JoeW]

He's thinking a 2 door vehicle. The Miata fit him just fine. Actually pretty roomy in there as far as leg and head room. Ruling out the IS250 due to too many doors. Adding 350Z to the list. Might be really hard to find a decent unmolested example. But we'll see. He saw a nice looking Focus ST as well. Higher mileage could get into our range.

Narrowing down the search parameters...

[Crazed_Insanity]

Too many doors?!?!?

Anyway at least the kid knows what he wants… :p

[Rikadyn]

Not a 240sx.

[JoeW]

Yeah he wants a small 2 door. Miata is figuring high on the list right now. 350Z too...but it looks like 90% of them are modified in some way.

[Rikadyn]

I mean if it's just visual mods and normal bolt ons, I wouldn't exclude them entirely but would have them inspected before hand by a mechanic.

240sx is a small two door but prices right now are stupid(and only made worse by the pandemic spike). Realistically my 92 with 200k could pull 6k easy and generally looking at 8-10k on the market range. However my min. Coverage insurance (in one of the worst states for prices) is only 70/mn. Good thing it's classed as a sub compact

[George]

...I have driven a Beetle home with a broken throttle cable and, on a different occasion, with a broken clutch cable


So you were able to 'MacGyver' up some sort of 'digital' drive by wire system by pulling on them with your fingers or something?


That got an actual guffaw out of me.

People who use the ignore feature miss some good content outside the Politics thread.

Yes, the throttle cable incident was a total McGyver thing, with the help of my friend Dave and a good samaritan who stopped to see if we needed help. People used to do that, especially with cars broken down a long walk from the nearest pay phone, as we were.

Spoiled out of respect for those who don't want to read Abe Simpson-style stories in Joe's thread.



Air-cooled VWs have cables that work like bicycle brake and shifter cables. One end has a stop on it that hooks into the thing you press or pull. You then thread it through the housing until you can screw down the cable at other end where it makes things happen.

We were driving home from somewhere after dark at 16 or maybe 17 years old when the throttle suddenly fell to the floor under the weight of my foot and the engine returned to idle speed. We coasted to a stop at the side of the road, where I discovered the throttle cable had broken at the gas pedal and was no longer connected to it.

There was perhaps an inch or two of broken cable sticking out from a little tube between the driver's footwell and the little hump between the front seats up under the dashboard.

I might have said, "If only I could pull on this with my fingertips, we could get home." A 'digital' drive by wire system, indeed. :up:

Then some dude pulled in behind us and asked if we needed help. We told the guy we could use some pliers or something to pull the throttle cable with, since fingertips were not strong enough to hold the throttle open for the maybe five-mile drive home.

He came back from his car and gave us a pair of old, dirty, off-brand vice-grips, which, of course, are the wrong tool for every job. Well, they were perfect for this job, and I'm pretty sure I still have them in a tool box out in the garage.

My friend Dave had driven my Beetle a few times and had certainly ridden in it for many hours, as had I in his '79 VW Rabbit. We used to joke that his Rabbit had so much body roll that it would scrape the door handles when he took corners too fast, as teenagers have been known to do, especially in the new neighborhoods being built in our area that had freshly paved streets but no houses yet. It was like real life Gran Turismo in the slowest class. These were the same neighborhoods being built that were empty on Friday nights after the construction guys went home and where high school cul-de-sac keg parties occurred back when the drinking age was eighteen.

Anyway, he got in the driver's seat and I got in on the passenger side, upside-down, resting on one shoulder in the passenger side floor mat and pulling on the broken throttle cable with the vice-grips locked to the cable in my other hand. He steered and operated the clutch and brake pedal. He told me when to let off for red lights and stop signs and when a light was about to turn green, so I could give it some gas to get us going, since I couldn't see anything down in the footwell. We made it back to my parents' house with those vice-grips and a story to remember.

The clutch story isn't nearly as much like a Route 66 episode, but it's true also. I was alone for that one. Cranking the starter with the car in that low first gear was enough to make it lurch forward and fire up from a dead stop. They can be shifted without the clutch if you let off the gas and are slow and gentle. I probably tried to time my approaches to stop lights to keep moving, as any Beetle enthusiast is used to doing anyway so as not to lose precious momentum, even when the car is working well. I managed to get home by myself and probably rolled through a few stop signs and stop lights on the way. The secret was never to come to a complete stop and keep upshifting and downshifting very gently.

I tell these tales mostly because I have always been greatly entertained by old VW stories myself. There was a time when I was younger when everyone had some VW stories, whether they owned one or had been a passenger when things got interesting. :)

[JoeW]

What about the Z3? Everything I read say pretty reliable.

[Leon]

I don't know that I've ever heard a BMW described as reliable, from anyone based in New Zealand.

[JoeW]

Yeah I kicked myself after posting.

[Crazed_Insanity]

There’s a huge price difference between the same year S2000 vs the Z3… and reliability is probably the reason why?

Based on your kid’s preference, Miata is probably it.

However, I personally think it’s probably not a good idea for a boy to have a rwd sports car as his only car. It’s also so small… maybe a Toyota Celica? It’s still sporty? FF should be safer? It’s also a bit bigger and more practical?

[Crazed_Insanity]

People who use the ignore feature miss some good content outside the Politics thread.

Yes, the throttle cable incident was a total McGyver thing, with the help of my friend Dave and a good samaritan who stopped to see if we needed help. People used to do that, especially with cars broken down a long walk from the nearest pay phone, as we were.

Spoiled out of respect for those who don't want to read Abe Simpson-style stories in Joe's thread.



Air-cooled VWs have cables that work like bicycle brake and shifter cables. One end has a stop on it that hooks into the thing you press or pull. You then thread it through the housing until you can screw down the cable at other end where it makes things happen.

We were driving home from somewhere after dark at 16 or maybe 17 years old when the throttle suddenly fell to the floor under the weight of my foot and the engine returned to idle speed. We coasted to a stop at the side of the road, where I discovered the throttle cable had broken at the gas pedal and was no longer connected to it.

There was perhaps an inch or two of broken cable sticking out from a little tube between the driver's footwell and the little hump between the front seats up under the dashboard.

I might have said, "If only I could pull on this with my fingertips, we could get home." A 'digital' drive by wire system, indeed. :up:

Then some dude pulled in behind us and asked if we needed help. We told the guy we could use some pliers or something to pull the throttle cable with, since fingertips were not strong enough to hold the throttle open for the maybe five-mile drive home.

He came back from his car and gave us a pair of old, dirty, off-brand vice-grips, which, of course, are the wrong tool for every job. Well, they were perfect for this job, and I'm pretty sure I still have them in a tool box out in the garage.

My friend Dave had driven my Beetle a few times and had certainly ridden in it for many hours, as had I in his '79 VW Rabbit. We used to joke that his Rabbit had so much body roll that it would scrape the door handles when he took corners too fast, as teenagers have been known to do, especially in the new neighborhoods being built in our area that had freshly paved streets but no houses yet. It was like real life Gran Turismo in the slowest class. These were the same neighborhoods being built that were empty on Friday nights after the construction guys went home and where high school cul-de-sac keg parties occurred back when the drinking age was eighteen.

Anyway, he got in the driver's seat and I got in on the passenger side, upside-down, resting on one shoulder in the passenger side floor mat and pulling on the broken throttle cable with the vice-grips locked to the cable in my other hand. He steered and operated the clutch and brake pedal. He told me when to let off for red lights and stop signs and when a light was about to turn green, so I could give it some gas to get us going, since I couldn't see anything down in the footwell. We made it back to my parents' house with those vice-grips and a story to remember.

The clutch story isn't nearly as much like a Route 66 episode, but it's true also. I was alone for that one. Cranking the starter with the car in that low first gear was enough to make it lurch forward and fire up from a dead stop. They can be shifted without the clutch if you let off the gas and are slow and gentle. I probably tried to time my approaches to stop lights to keep moving, as any Beetle enthusiast is used to doing anyway so as not to lose precious momentum, even when the car is working well. I managed to get home by myself and probably rolled through a few stop signs and stop lights on the way. The secret was never to come to a complete stop and keep upshifting and downshifting very gently.

I tell these tales mostly because I have always been greatly entertained by old VW stories myself. There was a time when I was younger when everyone had some VW stories, whether they owned one or had been a passenger when things got interesting. :)



Just finished your long ass story...

You always seem to have interesting stories to tell! :lol: Glad I guessed correctly that you were using some sort of 'digital' drive by wire system! :D

We need a simple economical car like the old VW Beetle nowadays. I'm pretty sure if such incidents were to happen in any of modern cars, there's probably no way to fix any of that... for me at least. :p

[dodint]

I picked 2005 at random because I figured that's around the timeframe you'd find cars in your price range.

Rated in order of reliability-durability GPA, Top 20:

The Toyota 4Runner V6, with a Reliability-Durability GPA of 3.90
The Toyota Prius, with a Reliability-Durability GPA of 3.90
The Toyota RAV4, with a Reliability-Durability GPA of 3.89
The Toyota Tacoma 4-cylinder 2-wheel-drive, with a Reliability-Durability GPA of 3.88
The Honda Civic sedan, with a Reliability-Durability GPA of 3.87
The Toyota Camry Solara 4-cylinder, with a Reliability-Durability GPA of 3.86
The Honda Pilot, with a Reliability-Durability GPA of 3.86
The Lexus LS, with a Reliability-Durability GPA of 3.86
The Toyota Camry V6, with a Reliability-Durability GPA of 3.85
The Honda Accord 4-cylinder, with a Reliability-Durability GPA of 3.85
The Toyota Camry 4-cylinder, with a Reliability-Durability GPA of 3.85
The Lexus ES, with a R-D GPA of 3.84
The BMW Z4, with a R-D GPA of 3.83
The Honda Accord V6, with a R-D GPA of 3.83
The Honda Element, with a R-D GPA of 3.82
The Toyota Echo Hatchback, with a R-D GPA of 3.82
The Toyota Highlander V6, with a R-D GPA of 3.80
The Acura TL, with a R-D GPA of 3.80
The Toyota Camry Solara V6, with a R-D GPA of 3.80
The Toyota Tundra V8 4-wheel-drive, with a R-D GPA of 3.78

I'd argue it's the only sporty car on the list. You want cheap, sporty, and reliable. Tough parameters.

From https://www.carqualityinfo.net/reliability-durability-gpas/10-best-cars-of-model-year-2005/ where "Quality Info uses the reliability of 4-to-6 year-old cars in order to obtain a composite measure of reliability and durability. For rating cars, brands and manufacturers, this section uses the standard method for awarding grade points - 0 for much worse than average, 1 for worse than average, 2 for average, 3 for better than average, and 4 for much better than average - and then calculates grade point averages (GPAs) and grades from these grade points."

The most unreliable thing about my Z4 was the interior plastics getting hard from all those years of sublime top-down motoring. The motors are very reliable, the suspensions are simple, and the electronics haven't gotten that complicated yet.

[dodint]

Oh, just for the flip side, no BMWs in the worst 20:

The Cadillac SRX all-wheel-drive, with a Reliability-Durability GPA of 0.28 and a Reliability-Durability Grade of F
The Chevrolet Uplander, with a R-D GPA of 0.36, an F
The Kia Sedona, with a R-D GPA of 0.41, an F
The Dodge Grand Caravan, with a R-D GPA of 0.43, an F
The Chrysler Town & Country extended, with a R-D GPA of 0.43, an F
The Dodge Caravan V6, with a R-D GPA of 0.44, an F
The Nissan Quest, with a R-D GPA of 0.46, an F
The Chevrolet Monte Carlo, with a R-D GPA of 0.47, an F
The Kia Sorento V6, with a R-D GPA of 0.48, an F
The Jeep Grand Cherokee V8, with a R-D GPA of 0.51, a D
The Dodge Magnum, with a Reliability-Durability GPA of 0.55 and a Reliability-Durability Grade of D
The Ford F-250 turbodiesel 4-wheel-drive pickup truck, with a R-D GPA of 0.56, a D
The Mazda RX-8, with a R-D GPA of 0.56, a D
The Volvo XC90 Inline 6, with a R-D GPA of 0.61, a D
The Saab 9-5, with a R-D GPA of 0.63, a D
The Dodge Dakota 4-wheel-drive pickup truck, with a R-D GPA of 0.63, a D
The Chevrolet Silverado 1500 V8 4-wheel-drive pickup truck, with a R-D GPA of 0.66, a D
The GMC Sierra 1500 V8 4-wheel-drive pickup truck, with a R-D GPA of 0.66, a D
The Audi A8, with a R-D GPA of 0.69, a D
The Nissan Titan 4-wheel-drive pickup truck, with a R-D GPA of 0.69, a D

Worst car of 2005 was a Cadillac. :lol:
Sad to see the Saab 9-5 there, I wonder if that's the one that's really a Subaru.

[JoeW]

Nevermind...looking now...

[Crazed_Insanity]

Wow! Z4 is right up there with all the Toyotas and Hondas!!! :eek:

Miatas didn't even make the list! RX8 actually made it to the worst list??!?!?!?

Interesting.

Lastly, glad I didn't purchase a 2005 Kia Sorento! Sorento sure has gone a long way in 10 years...

[Kchrpm]

I didn't know a resource as simple and data-based as that existed, nice!

[dodint]

I found it while poking around. BMWs are usually found on the most reliable lists now but it's tougher to find the farther back you go.

[Phil_SS]

Sad to see the Saab 9-5 there, I wonder if that's the one that's really a Subaru.

It was not, the Saabaru was the 9-2X. 9-5 was always a Swedish creation.

[dodint]

Ahhh, right. I thought it was a 9-5x. When I was looking at Saab wheels there was a certain subset with a different bolt pattern, took me a minute to figure it out.

[CudaMan]

Yeah my experience so far tells me an NA BMW from the post-E46 era is pretty reliable, just complex in some areas if something does go wrong (so more $$ to fix). My N51-powered 2011 328i was well maintained by the PO, and it has had just a few small easy repairs from when I bought it at 98k miles and now (nearly 137k). Pretty impressed with the build quality overall with a couple caveats, mainly having to do with rubber/EPDM both on the window trim and on oil seals. That's the main gotcha with these cars, one particular oil leak at the oil filter housing gasket can, if ignored, lead to the engine being destroyed through a fascinating cascade of events. And the oil pan seal, if it goes bad, requires a subframe drop to replace. But every car has its particular foibles you gotta watch out for - some more than others.

[JoeW]

Finding a 2001 Z3 2.5i locally for a reasonable price. Hmmm.

[JoeW]

I swear Miata’s are like gold right now. Prices are way over book. People think they are some sort of awesome collectible. And I’m talking about NB and NC…post 2000 cars.

Z3s in good shape are actually pretty reasonable and most seem to have been mature adult owned…which is the exact opposite of Miata.

[Godson]

Miata vs z3....


Find a Z4. It will be safer and overall a better vehicle.

[JoeW]

Finding a Z4 in a manual is proving damn near impossible.

Quite the opposite for Z3 and Miata.

[Phil_SS]

If I'm not mistaken, didn't Nate own a Z4 for a hot minute?

Doing a little digging. I didn't realize they didn't make a regular Z4 coupe, but just a M Coupe. I figured since they made a regular Z3 coupe they would have made a Z4. Look like some of them have a removable hardtop?

Aka, a regular Z3 coupe could be cool as well. Though they are rarer than hens teeth.

NM: It does appear they made a Z4 coupe there just weren't any on Autotrader. Or maybe they didn't make any that had manuals?

Edit 2: Appears they did make manual coupes they are just uber rare in Merica.

[dodint]

I had a Z4 but sold it because it was an automatic. I thought Ash would drive it more often than she did. I fell for that trick twice so now I buy what I want. I've never owned one but I'm told the early SMGs are not great, so I steered clear of them. People say at low speeds they drive like someone learning to drive a clutch for the first time.

I'm too big for the Z3, never owned one. If your son is tall he can remove some material from behind the driver seat and get a little extra room.
The suspension is the same going back to the E30 in the 80s so it's not exactly a complex vehicle. The 2.5 and 3.0 are the same motor I have in the race car (330ci, 225hp), just in varying levels of tune. I bet that 3.0 scoots since the Z3 weighs a few hundred pounds less than the 330ci. But even the 2.5 is still at 184hp.

I've owned 14 BMWs and almost 30 cars. For pure driving enjoyment, the Z4 was number one. And I had a 3.0si, it wasn't the M. Part of me really wants to sell the M6 and buy a first gen Z4M Roadster. Luckily they're not as expensive as the Z4 M Coupe, yet.

[JoeW]

Yeah the Z4 is probably out. There is a 2006 NC Miata with a couple minor issues close by that drove nicely. They are at $7500 plus. 110k miles. Small quarter size rip in the top and the passenger side door doesn’t operate electronically. Minor issue with the passenger side skirt installation. Otherwise seems fine.

Z3 is here. 2001 2.5i. Little bit of a drive so I haven’t been to actually see it yet. It’s at $7000

https://tampa.craigslist.org/pnl/ctd/d/saint-petersburg-bmw-z3-25-roadster/7582877393.html

[Crazed_Insanity]

Given the choices, I'd pick Miata over Z3. If there's an affordable Z4, then that'd be my choice over Miata!

Of course every used car is in various different conditions... if the Z3 is really in a much better condition, then maybe I'd pick it. However, without hard data to help ease my reliability concerns... That Z3 will have to be totally like-new in order for me to pick it over the Miata! :p

(From the pics, it actually does look very good, but that's according to Craiglist though... you gotta go see for yourself!)

[dodint]

Z3 CL post was deleted.

[JoeW]

It’s still available but they upped the price to $7500 then I find out the dealer fee is $999. Fuck that.

NC Miata was a bust. We peeled away this black tape underneath to find a bunch of foam sprayed in to cover up a ton of rust.

So moving on…

[JoeW]

Here is Z3 ad…

https://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?listingId=663550094&allListingType=all-cars&zip=33548&makeCodeList=BMW&modelCodeList=Z3&state=FL&city=Lutz&searchRadius=50&isNewSearch=false&referrer=%2Fcars-for-sale%2Fall-cars%3Fzip%3D33548%26makeCodeList%3DBMW%26modelCod eList%3DZ3&clickType=alpha

Still mildly interested if they can adjust the pricing by quite a bit. But dealers aren’t really noted for negotiating. Private parties yes.

[Phil_SS]

Dealers absolutely will deal. :D

When I bought my Saleen I made the dealer an offer which was under sticker but with a decent cash down payment and they took it.

If you are showing up with cash, and you like the car, make an offer. They either take it or not. No biggie, but they can shove that $999 dealer fee up there ass. What a bunch of bullshit.

[JoeW]

https://www.daytonamazda.com/used-Daytona+Beach-2008-+-Mazda+MX+5+Miata-Sport-JM1NC25FX80138873

This is the one methinks.

[dodint]

When I bought the X5 in Detroit I was chatting with the dealer about dealer fees. They charge $40. I told them I turned down a lot of cars over the years, particularly in the Georgia/Florida area, because of $899 document fees. I see that they've raised them to $999, ouch.

[Crazed_Insanity]

That one does not fall within the range specified in the thread title!!!

[JoeW]

The car I linked above is on the dealer site for $11k ish. I saw it on FB market place for $9000. I messaged the FB ad and the salesman and I chat for a bit. He calls me back and deal done for $8500 out the door. Couldn’t believe it. It’s at a legit Mazda dealer and fully serviced and ready. Driving the 2.5hrs to pick it up Monday.

[JoeW]

I figured it was ok to throw another grand at it for what is basically a new car.

[dodint]

Congrats!

[Crazed_Insanity]

Wow! This guess used car market is really going down! Good to know! Yeah, congrats for getting a deal!

[George]

Excellent.

[Cam]

Zoom-zoom! :cool::up:

[JoeW]

Yeah the NB Miatas were going for about the same price as the NC. Why would I pay the same amount for a car 8 yrs older, less refined, with fewer bells and whistles, and requiring more maintenance? Since I'm no collector or some NA/NB purist, buying the newest car I could afford made sense. Another thing I kept running into with NB cars was the lack of maintenance records. And with most of them pushing 100k miles or more the problem was that all the pre NC cars require timing belt and water pump changes every 60k miles. And I certainly didn't want to buy a car that needed $1000 in work to make me feel like it was ready for years of driving without worrying about it breaking everyday.

[dodint]

And I certainly didn't want to buy a car that needed $1000 in work to make me feel like it was ready for years of driving without worrying about it breaking everyday.


https://media.giphy.com/media/RfXX5tmtazKY3zI6z0/giphy-downsized-large.gif

[JoeW]

That is exactly it!

[Yw-slayer]

Nice one, man!