Porsche Says Its Synthetic Fuel Could Make Gas-Powered Engines as Clean as EVs

[Fogelhund]

https://robbreport.com/motors/cars/porsche-synthetic-efuel-ev-alternative-1234597977/?fbclid=IwAR3OQfSJ9OQZTR9IxNLA18QTPoF25LMv8ZCWgGcC 8UgKzlCbnsSUFdA11Sg

The Porsche Taycan may be one of the most exciting EVs on the market right now, but that doesn’t mean the German automaker is ready to give up on the combustion engine just yet.

The marque’s vice president Motorsport and GT cars, Dr. Frank Walliser, told British car magazine Evo that the company is hard at work on a synthetic fuel technology that could save traditional, gas-powered mills. The fuel won’t just reduce emissions, either; it has the potential to make combustion engines just as clean as their battery-powered counterparts, the executive said.

Walliser claims the company’s synthetic fuel, which will be called eFuel, can be used in any combustion engine and is scheduled to start undergoing testing next year. The fuel is less complex than traditional gas—eight to 10 components compared to 30 to 40—allowing it to burn cleaner, with fewer particulates and NOx. Because of this, the total carbon footprint of the vehicle will be equal to that of an EV.

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First question being, what exactly is the cost of this synthetic rocket fuel?

Second of course, questioning the accuracy of the claims.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Interesting. This impossible fuel must not cost too much and must be able to back up their impossible claim in order to get Porsche and Mclaren onboard?

Hope this works out. Another benefactor might be commercial aviation. Not sure how we can still have trans oceanic flights without fossil fuel...

[Cam]

Yeah, I have my doubts. It will take energy to create the fuel, thus negating the "clean as EVs" claims. Again, I am married to a climate scientist. These type of claims are ridiculous marketing BS.

[dodint]

As if electricity and batteries spring forth from the earth effortlessly. ;)

[JoeW]

Well hydrogen is a pretty clean fuel. I’m thinking if they are talking about it publicly then it’s already being tested. I imagine it’s super expensive to produce though.

[balki]

Well, most electricity comes from fossil fuels and hydrogen is a pain to get and keep in liquid form... so this sounds promising (yet vague and too optimistic).

[FaultyMario]

latina-girl-why-not-both.gif

[Crazed_Insanity]

Please repost. I cannot see the latina girl.

[Cam]

As if electricity and batteries spring forth from the earth effortlessly. ;)

I don't know if you were addressing me specifically, but this notion is not lost on me. I was not arguing that EVs were clean.

"...the total carbon footprint of the vehicle will be equal to that of an EV."

Which is to say, not very small, really.

The fact of the matter is, the world will need fossil fuel powered things for the foreseeable future.

While hydrogen can be used as a fuel, a lot of energy is used to refine it, which comes from, you guessed it, fossil fuels. :lol:

[FaultyMario]

I read somewhere that hybrid plants with combined-cycle gas and solar-powered turbines technology (mirrors heat up a viscous solution inside a tower serpentine, gas burners keep it in movement during the cold hours) had a ROI slightly lower than nuclear. With lower social and environmental impacts.

IMHO, we need to have a vision of the energy inputs in transportation in a cradle-to-grave perspective and work out a plan that integrates a mix of solutions along the chain. For example, the new biosynth fuels do need energy to be produced, but, if we can link up hybrid power generation like the one described above with traditional liquefied or gas hydrocarbons and plant- or algae- based ethanes and come up with a solution where, at the end of the chain, each driven mile has a lower overall impact, we ought to go for that, as one of a few plans to not end up with newer version Mars on the Solar System.

[Rare White Ape]

Solar-to-hydrogen is a growing industry. A few state governments around Australia are already investing in startup programs. Thusly:

Build a plant near the ocean with a decently sized solar farm

Suck water out of said ocean

Electrolysis

Store oxygen in one tank and hydrogen in another

Put on big boat, sail to China

Sell hydrogen to China where they can use it in gas turbine generators

The benefits are that there are no ongoing electricity costs because you get it from the sky, and the by product of hydrogen combustion is fresh water vapour.

Once the initial investment in solar panels is paid for then it’s an easy business case to continue. It does require a hell of a lot of energy to refine the water but the sun pumps it out for free.

And natural gas turbine generators only need slight modifications to convert to hydrogen use. The steam could be released to precipitate somewhere else (a possible source of climate change if the scale is big enough) or it could be captured and used in industrial settings and released into the water treatment system, saving some of the town water supply for other uses.

Some drawbacks:

China is the main customer, and we know how tricky they can be

Storing hydrogen is very difficult as its atoms are smaller than the gaps in the structure used to hold it, meaning it has to be COLD and stored in large volumes to reduce evaporation

The ideal location for these plants is close to China to reduce transit time, but a lot of northern Australia is pristine wilderness

Other than that this is a great way to massively reduce carbon emissions. And yeah we’re talking about car fuel here; just do the same thing but for cars.

[Dicknose]

Seems its a more complex hydrocarbon than ethanol, so it can be run in cars that cant handle higher ethanol levels.
And it might end up expensive, but hey if you own a classic or valuable Porsche you want to know you can keep running the car in 20 years even if the fuel costs go up.

And even if they do go all electric in the next 10 years, I think for Porsche they want to be able to say "our cars can be on the road forever". They have always prided themselves in the number of older models that are still going. They do parts and servicing for much longer than most marques.
This is a way of saying "your 1970 porsche can keep going even if existing petroleum fuels stop".
As well as still selling newer models with a bit of reassurance it wont be obsolete in a few years.

Good move!

[Crazed_Insanity]

Just recently read an article about such solar plant in middle of nowhere CA end up attracting bugs due to its shininess... as a result, that attracted bug eating birds... so they are seeing quite a number of birds vaporized by sun’s focused death rays reflected off of those mirrors. Environmentalists naturally are concerned...

There are no perfect solutions.

Nature always finds a way though to balance things out. Such as forcing them stupid humans to stay home as much as possible by giving then a pandemic. :p

[Rare White Ape]

This is a way of saying "your 1970 porsche can keep going even if existing petroleum fuels stop".

I've heard of them even training dealerships to service 917 race cars.

Dealerships!

[Dicknose]

They had an ad where a guy rings up trying to get his tractor serviced and the receptionist is confused by the model (but of cause the nerdy service boss has it covered)
here it is...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8-9oIq1hxw

[Kchrpm]

I really liked that commercial and now I'm going to watch it again for the first time in years and smile again.

[Rare White Ape]

That's a cute ad!

There just happened to be an open day at the local Porsche dealership as I was on my way past for a haircut this morning. I dropped in on the gamble that they'd have a historic car from their museum on tour, as they sometimes do. Unfortunately no, but it did have wall-to-wall Taycans since they must be having a launch event for it. They are an impressively sized car. Massive. But it still looks really good, almost like the proportions of a small sports car but upsized 30%.

[Dicknose]

I really liked that commercial and now I'm going to watch it again for the first time in years and smile again.

And who said the Germans dont have a sense of humour!!

[JoeW]

I worked in a Porsche dealer for a year as a service advisor and it is absolutely true they train them to work on just about everything. Of course every shop will have their “air cooled” guy or their “race car” guy...guys that are particularly experienced in certain things. One time we got a perfect street GT1 (I think only 17 were officially made) in for service. The guy was a collector who lived nearby who bought it at auction in Monaco or something for 20mil. He wanted to disable the stock anti theft device because he was an old guy who had no idea how it functioned. Of course when really special cars like this come in the regional service representative will stop in to make sure it’s handled with perfection.

Got to drive some cool shit while I was there.

[Rare White Ape]

I've long dreamed about a job working for Porsche as a mechanic in a dealership.

I am sure, knowing what little I know about the company structure, that there would be a career path from apprentice at Porsche Centre Gold Coast on Harvest Court in Southport, to working for the factory Le Mans race team if you were keen enough.

[Crazed_Insanity]

May the impossible fuel work out, otherwise all of that just might disappear...

Well, actually I saw a Taycan on the road the other day, in some weird color, but it looks cool! Better than any Tesla that’s for sure!

[Dicknose]

Havent seen a Taycan yet. As RWA mentioned, the launch in Aus has just happened.

And petroleum fuel will continue for a while. Many places are banning it in new cars, dont know many places are banning cars that use it. Even then they might get an exemption for a fuel like this (and some tax!!)

[Crazed_Insanity]

Still, imagine if you’re a service technician for a DVD player or VHS/cassette player? :p

Porsche is really something. I think they’re so far the only traditional car company able to make Tesla look bad. I remember I used to laugh at Porsche for making SUVs. However, Porsche is now the one laughing all the way to the bank! Whichever the wind eventually blows, I’m pretty sure Porsche shall do well.

Anyway, about the only thing I hate about EVs is that you can’t rev engines no more. So I really hope they get the impossible fuel to work.

[Yw-slayer]

Quite a few Taycans around here. I look forward to this synthetic fuel initiative succeeding, so that I can run my brz forever.

[21Kid]

Hydrogen goop sounds interesting

https://www.popularmechanics.com/science/energy/a35410999/clean-hydrogen-goop-powerpaste/

[Kchrpm]

What results is a stable medium that its makers say is 10 times more energy-dense than lithium-ion batteries

Whoa!

[21Kid]

Yeah... I'm skeptical, but intrigued.

[Rare White Ape]

The lead picture in the link looks like it should be accompanied by a headline such as “Power your devices using this one weird trick. You won’t believe what scientists have invented!”

[Dicknose]

Doesnt sound that good. After using your tank of hydrogen goop you now have no-hydrogen goop to get rid of and need more good goop to refill.

Interesting that they compared the energy density to a battery, not existing fuels. It is a fuel, not a battery (it needs replacement, not just recharging). And it also seemed they might have not included the water in that calculation. It needs the water and that also supplies half the hydrogen.
Yeah Im calling "marketing bullshit" on the energy density claims.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I guess they’re making themselves more comparable to EVs rather than ICE vehicles. Such as fuel cell uses hydrogen to power the electric motor.

Honda Clarity had 3 different power sources, hydrogen fuel cell, pure EV and a gas hybrid.

EV with only lithium batteries preformed the worse... could only go 90miles, where as the fuel cell and hybrid could go much further...

The problem with that hydrogen fuel cell car is that I’m a bit afraid of that highly pressurized hydrogen tank... and it can be bulky, taking up a lot of trunk space. With this paste, you won’t need such a high pressure bulky tank anymore...

So this will perform better than the EV because of higher energy density of the ‘battery’, but probably still won’t go as far as the pure hydrogen car...

At least it’ll be cleaner burning.

I think the key will be how much energy will it take to produce this goo and overall cost...

EV costs are dropping, but overall still more expensive than ICE cars.

Hydrogen goo car needs to be cheaper than EV, not just have better energy density. If you can’t beat prices, or at least has the potential to have lower prices, I just don’t think it will catch on.

Tesla cars are still just a niche in the overall car market.

[21Kid]

There are more articles on the goop. Apparently it is called Powerpaste, if you want to look into it.

"When it comes time to release the energy, a plunger mechanism extrudes the paste into a chamber where it reacts with water to release hydrogen at a dynamically controlled rate, which then feeds a fuel cell to create electrical power with which to run an EV powertrain or other device. Part of the paste's impressive energy density comes from the fact that half of the hydrogen released comes from the water it reacts with."

https://newatlas.com/energy/powerpaste-hydrogen-fuel-paste/

[Crazed_Insanity]

So besides the paste, you need to carry additional water onboard? Water can be pretty heavy if it needs lots of water...

Can the overall system really be lighter and packed with more energy than batteries or the bulky hi pressure H2 tank... and also cheaper?

Lastly, hopefully the left over goo is reuseable?

Anyway, I guess Tesla doesn't have much to worry about in the short term.

[Dicknose]

I cant see it being lighter than hydrogen. Safer... well I still wouldnt want an accident and the goo is released and it gets wet.
And Id also hope the left over goo is reuable. But either way when you "fill up", you need to empty the used goo. Id imagine that it probably would end up with two tanks, fresh goo and used goo. Maybe you just swap tanks, cant see anyone wanting to pump the goo in and out.
Lastly - like most systems this is going to need infrastructure. Maybe a swap tanks needs less infrastructure, but its still not much use unless its widely available.
And thats one of the big problems with so many different solutions - most need a min critical takeup to be viable.
At least EV that can power from a domestic outlet can be used almost anywhere. Sure for long distance travel you want quick charge, but for 99% of the time they can just charge at home. Thats a huge plus over alternate fuels.

[Dicknose]

Oh - forgot to say, the synthetic fuel wouldnt need new distribution infrastructure since it just replaces existing petro fuels. Maybe relabel pumps.
Needs all new production, but thats not a problem. And it doesnt even need to be in every country. It also means production could happen in places without oil reserves!

[21Kid]

I was under the impression that the goo was for transportation and storage. And that it would be turned into traditional hydrogen for cars at a station. (shrug)

I love plugging our car in at night. It's 100% every morning, since we fill up a little bit at a time.

[Rare White Ape]

Yeah Kid I don't know why people always whinge about EV mileage, especially for city driving as it's so convenient. Something makes me think they never wanna give up petrol-powered vehicles for the heck of it. Here's a good link (https://tinyurl.com/tmhprznn) espousing the benefits.

[Kchrpm]

EVs are great for doing the daily commute during an average week, the problem only arises when you're doing the "let's drive to the coast/Florida/grandparents/etc" trips.

Maybe it's 200+ miles, you just make it, and you have to figure out where to charge it while you wait. Does your location have at least a level 2 charger? If not then you might be screwed.

Maybe it's 500+ miles, and your 7 hour drive immediately turns into 8, and you still need to find a place to charge when you get there.

EV charging just isn't fast or common enough yet for the kind of "let's just go" simplicity that fossil fuel cars allow. But it's getting closer every year, so hopefully we'll be there soon enough.

[FaultyMario]

I cant see it being lighter than hydrogen. Safer... well I still wouldnt want an accident and the goo is released and it gets wet.


Doesn't Magnesium ignite when you don't accept its friend request?

[Crazed_Insanity]

EVs are great for doing the daily commute during an average week, the problem only arises when you're doing the "let's drive to the coast/Florida/grandparents/etc" trips.

Maybe it's 200+ miles, you just make it, and you have to figure out where to charge it while you wait. Does your location have at least a level 2 charger? If not then you might be screwed.

Maybe it's 500+ miles, and your 7 hour drive immediately turns into 8, and you still need to find a place to charge when you get there.

EV charging just isn't fast or common enough yet for the kind of "let's just go" simplicity that fossil fuel cars allow. But it's getting closer every year, so hopefully we'll be there soon enough.

Yes, long road trips are not great for EVs. Within the city doing errands and commuting, EVs for sure are way superior than ICE cars. I think EV chargers should also be bidirectional so that they could function as backup power supply at home.

Perhaps in the future we can integrate our power grid with the freeways. That way we don't have to worry about out power lines causing wild fires... and also EVs could perhaps also charge while traveling on such special freeways.

Anyway, one of the main reason I'd like to see this special fuel to succeed is because I want commercial jets to be able to use it as well. I don't think electric planes will be able to cross big oceans. Lastly in cold climates, your EV range will be severely reduced. You just cannot pack as much energy into batteries as fuel.

[Kchrpm]

I think EV chargers should also be bidirectional so that they could function as backup power supply at home.

That's the Tesla Powerwall, effectively. Combined with solar, you get some very interesting looks at our potential future.