F1 2022 Season - "Big Wheels"

[dodint]

Btw…I dislike Russell more every race. His whiney little idiotic outbursts are quite annoying.

Yeah, dude needs to put up or shut up.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I’m intrigued. The guy is ahead of Lewis in points, how much more does he need to put up?

Anyway, I’ll try to pay more attention of his interviews…

[FaultyMario]

https://twitter.com/f1trolls_ :

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FeyoQJtWQAAcHrH.jpg

[JoeW]

I mean his in car radio messages.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Drivers can often say shit when they’re too emotionally charged… anyway, will try to find some radio msg on YouTube and see for myself.

Regarding Mario’s post, yeah, why should FIA restrict catering costs? That’s dumb if true. Also, repairing crashed cars shouldn’t be considered as well. A crashed car should be penalty enough and shouldn’t be further penalized financially.

Wonder if that’s categorized as ‘other’? Wtf is ‘other’?

[JoeW]

For example in Suzuka he was complaining about Mercs decision to double stack pit for tires saying it was the worst decision they made all year.

But when the announcers looked at the data it was apparent that is was exactly the right call. The couple of seconds lost by pitting directly behind Hamilton is nothing compared to how much time he would have lost by waiting another lap.

And when he complains about other drivers “dangerous driving” when in fact it’s just called racing.

Yeah the Hamilton diva thing…it’s not a thing anymore because he’s not winning. You can see how his demeanor has changed this season by not being top dog. He used to win the race, go in the garage and primp to get himself beautiful and make the interviewer wait. Now no one notices because he’s not doing a podium interview. Everyone else wins, puts the helmet on the table, puts the hat on and done.

[Kchrpm]

But when the announcers looked at the data it was apparent that is was exactly the right call. The couple of seconds lost by pitting directly behind Hamilton is nothing compared to how much time he would have lost by waiting another lap.

Interesting, the broadcast I was watching (through the F1 app) said that Russell was right, and the time lost doing one more lap was less than the time he lost waiting. They used another team where one driver did an extra lap as the example.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Right call or not, it’s usually not apparent to the driver at the moment. Often times drivers had to walk back and eat their words after knowing all the facts. Of course great drivers could probably make better calls themselves rather than relying on teams such as Ferrari… ;)

Anyway, in general, I thought George is a pretty decent dude and a fast driver. Whining under emotional stress(being forced to wait a bit behind your teammate in a pit) seems acceptable to me.

[JoeW]

Well if the pundits were incorrect then I retract that one reason why I dislike him :) The rest still apply…

[Crazed_Insanity]

Well if the pundits were incorrect then I retract that one reason why I dislike him :) The rest still apply…

:lol:

Anyway, we all reserve the right to like or dislike anyone we want!

One thing I just recently noticed is that pretty much all engineers in all teams behave like calm and collected robots! You can see Toto and Horner go nuts when certain incidents happen, but how the hell did those engineers on the radio able to keep cool like that? Pretty amazing. Even Kimi can cuss, but those engineers are cool at an absurd level. Btw, I don’t really like any of those engineers. They just don’t sound human! :p

[JoeW]

Former 911 operators.

[dodint]

I'm a former 911 operator.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I operated a 911 once. My rich lawyer buddy was kind enough to let me take it for a spin. I have to say that only elevated my emotional craziness. I was not all calm and collected afterwards. Your theory sucks! :p

[JoeW]

Buncha damn comedians…

[Rare White Ape]

I used to volunteer in the fire brigade. I taught me to speak slowly, calmly, and clearly, when I've got a 20 foot wall of bushfire 20 ft away from me.

It's actually pretty easy to do if you're not a reactive panic merchant, not a fuckwit, and are able to process information before blurting out some useless nonsense.

I've never driven a Porsche though. That might get a rise out of me.

[dodint]

I am actually a certified emergency services operator. I don't think the certification expires. I did it for a few months after I got out of the military but that was 10 years ago.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Oh. So there was just one comedian then! :p

[FaultyMario]

The best motorsports thing you'll read for a few days.

https://www.astonmartinf1.com/en-GB/news/feature/undercut-sebastian-vettel-no-one-will-remember-me

[Crazed_Insanity]

Vettel is obviously a fast racer and a decent guy, but I can’t help but feel that he’s not one of the great ones because Ricciardo kicked his ass and then he ran away to Ferrari! I’d rate him higher if he had beaten Ricciardo and then went to Ferrari because RB is too slow…

Anyway, Ricciardo later on pulled the same thing when beaten by his rookie teammate… and he suffered a worse fate…

Makes me wonder if Max will someday leave RB and then stop being exceptional too…there’s just something about those RB cars and they tend to favor the rookies.

Too bad Perez is too old. :p anyway, of course that’s not always true, there were quite a few of them got demoted…

[Tom Servo]

The best motorsports thing you'll read for a few days.

https://www.astonmartinf1.com/en-GB/news/feature/undercut-sebastian-vettel-no-one-will-remember-me

Thanks for posting that, that was an enjoyable read.

[FaultyMario]

Not technically F1 2022, but too awesome not to post here:

https://twitter.com/i/status/1581793489406173184

click for video.

[JoeW]

Sick

[Crazed_Insanity]

Cool, but why?

[Blerpa]

Why not?

[FaultyMario]

Why not?

Exactly.

Watching that, It kept occurring to me that that was what ChampCar was trying to emulate a decade later.

[Crazed_Insanity]

They're giving their indycar drivers a chance during USGP's practice sessions. That makes more sense to me.

Don't get me wrong, seeing any of Senna's old cars on track is a sweet treat and I loved that! However, was just wondering what's the special occasion? Surely you wouldn't break out a bottle of old wine for no reason, right?

[JoeW]

So they decided that there were budget violations. So still no penalties announced? Get your shit together FIA.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Did they spell out penalties in their rulebooks? Can they go by their own book? Or it’s up to the discretion of almighty FIA to decide whatever they want?

All the top teams will now try to exceed the budget by just a little bit in the future now. That’s racing, right? Gotta push as close to the limit as possible… ;)

[FaultyMario]

So they decided that there were budget violations. So still no penalties announced? Get your shit together FIA.

If car was 5% lighter, what should the penalty be?
If car used 5% more fuel, what should the penalty be?
If team used 5% more pitstop personnel, what should the penalty be?

[JoeW]

I have no idea but they made the rules…and there should be a preset penalty in place for a violation of each rule broken.

[Freude am Fahren]

If car was 5% lighter, what should the penalty be?
If car used 5% more fuel, what should the penalty be?
If team used 5% more pitstop personnel, what should the penalty be?

Problem with that comparison is they would be found out immediately and the penalty can be applied to that race.

This is a season long thing, and way after the fact. But if you want to look at it that way, maybe they should effectively be DSQ's from the point at which they started to go over the limit?

Also, should any penalties only apply to CWC, and not DWC? Similar to the McLaren DSQ in '07

[Crazed_Insanity]

Simple solution is to cut into your next years budget! If you overrun by $10 on catering, next year, you’ll eat $10 less by bringing lunch from home? ;)

[Blerpa]

Oooops.

Red Bull called “cheats” as FIA silent on F1 Cost Cap penalty (https://www.grandprix247.com/2022/10/15/red-bull-called-cheats-as-fia-dither-on-f1-cost-cap-breach-penalty/)

[FaultyMario]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FfcY9rVXgAcWUNV.jpg

I like.

[Kchrpm]

I agree.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Shouldn’t that go on Haas cars?

It’ll suck if Haas doesn’t do something to his cars now… :p

[dodint]

It's gaudy. It'll fit in at COTA.

[Kchrpm]

Exactly!

[Rare White Ape]

I doubt that car will pass scrutineering, but we’ll see.

[Alan P]

I doubt that car will pass scrutineering, but we’ll see.

I don't think it's even this years car? It looks like last years or a Render over last years livery? The front barge boards majorly give it away.

[Tom Servo]

Also, wheels look like last year's. However, Duracell joined on as a sponsor early this year. I'm guessing Alan nailed it with a render over last year's model.

[Rare White Ape]

It’s a show car, probably at least two years old. No engine. It’s on display in Dallas. They used it for a Miami promo as well, with another lairy livery.

[Tom Servo]

Oh. Looks like they actually slapped the livery on last year's car and have it parked at a "pop-up store" in downtown Austin.

https://twitter.com/WilliamsRacing/status/1582761496064716800

Per that link, it's an FW41, which was the chassis in 2018.

[Blerpa]

FIA ends F1 race director rotation for rest of 2022 season (https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/in-full-the-fia-report-on-the-f1-japanese-gp-crane-incident/10387600/)

After many drivers' criticism about Suzuka's handling of the troubled first laps Freitas got the boot.
Good riddance.
He has done already enough in WEC to have to suffer him in F1 too.

Dunno why in the global article there's no thorough mentions of the official changes but in the italian version they are present and detailed:

So from next race (USA GP) the following measures are to be taken:

. Teams will be informed real time, by the official messenger system, of the entrance of a rescue vehicle on the track, and the very same teams will be obliged to inform their own drivers.

. There will be a new real time monitoring window of VSC/SC to visualize the state of all the vehicles, on the track, behind SC and in pit-lane - this monitoring window will be available for race direction at all times.

. There will be a new function implemented to modify the delta-time imposed to drivers to follow up in the sectors where an accident has happened.

[FaultyMario]

Dunno why in the global article there's no thorough mentions of the official changes but in the italian version they are present and detailed:

So from next race (USA GP) the following measures are to be taken:

. Teams will be informed real time, by the official messenger system, of the entrance of a rescue vehicle on the track, and the very same teams will be obliged to inform their own drivers.


They were not?!?!?

LOL.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Wouldn’t it be easier to retrofit safety vehicles so that when F1 cars hit it, it won’t kill the drivers? You can notify all you want, if drivers cannot see them when visibility is poor, what can they do? Better to wrap some sort of tire barrier around the safety vehicles?

Pretty sure Senna knew about the wall. Better solution is to make the cars/walls safer, right? We don’t need vehicles that can chop driver’s head off on track!

[JoeW]

It’s not like the safety vehicles enter the track under green flag conditions. How about slowing the fuck down under SC/VSC periods?

Instead of F1 designing and building their own brand of safety vehicles…cmon man…

[Crazed_Insanity]

It’s easy to just blame Senna and Bianchi for not slowing down. They could probably live if they just slowed down, right?

Why not just pad up the wall a bit? Also shouldn’t be that hard to pad up safety vehicles.

It is obviously very hard to ask F1 drivers to slow down. It happened before in Japan and it almost happened again this year. I just think more needs to be done than just ask them stupid drivers to slow down.

[JoeW]

Well you can’t fix stupid no matter how safe you make it. It’s pretty obvious that when the damn safety car is out then chill the fuck out. Especially when it’s raining. It’s not rocket science.

[FaultyMario]

It's been speculated that Dietrich Mateschitz might have died:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ffs-f4zWQAA_Ss4.jpg

[Kchrpm]

Confirmed: https://www.espn.com/f1/story/_/id/34855951/red-bull-owner-dietrich-mateschitz-dies-aged-78

[Crazed_Insanity]

Wow. Does that change anything?

[Rare White Ape]

Well you can’t fix stupid no matter how safe you make it. It’s pretty obvious that when the damn safety car is out then chill the fuck out. Especially when it’s raining. It’s not rocket science.

Maybe they could invent some sort of collision protection system that envelops the driver and protects their head. Spend millions on developing it, and ensure that it's mandated to be used by every team. Like maybe a highly controversial but successful attachment over the forward part of the cockpit, much like a roll hoop, made from titanium could be the go. That's what I'd do if a driver in my charge died in a service vehicle collision.

:thinking emoji:

[JoeW]

Unfortunately that sort of device helps in all sorts of situations…now if you could find some way to help dumb drivers be smarter in specific SC/VSC situations then you’d be on to something. You know like a common sense enhancer.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I’m saying that’s probably the core problem…. That those drivers by nature like to go stupid fast! Take pit stops for example. We have speed limiters and penalties to slow them down. In general that worked well. However, occasionally you’ll still see some unsafe releases and racy situations.

What FIA has done now is to simply inform and then shift responsibility. Hey, now you know there’s a safety vehicle on track. (I’m in agreement with Mario on this one, they weren’t doing that before?) If your driver’s stupid and dies, it’s all on you. FIA hands are clean. Really? Nothing more FIA could do? They have budget caps regarding safety too?

Informing the teams that there’s a tractor on track is the minimum FIA could/should do. If you guys believe nothing more needs to be done, fine by me. It’s not like my life is in danger.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Just saw the clip of 1st turn incident. I guess Sainz thought he was only racing Max and just didn’t pay attention to others behind them? George probably shares some blame, but it appears he was already coming in hot with smoking tires so probably just couldn’t avoid hitting him?

What a shame and a waste of Ferrari 1 2 in qualifying…

Also why the sudden surge in performance of Aston Martin? Making it look like perhaps Alonso made the right move.

[JoeW]

Russell equals douchebag. T bones Sainz and then has the balls to blame Sainz. Only a 5 sec penalty for ruining a race…what a shame. Would have liked to see Sainz fighting up there.

Stroll should be penalized for that crash.

Alonso is my hero of the day. How the fuck did he and the car survive that and continue on to 7th? Crazy.

Hamilton crying about Max track limits and then gets his own black/white flag is quite hilarious.

Good race overall. Some nice battles thanks to the safety car periods. Was starting out a snooze fest for a little bit.

[FaultyMario]

Alonso is my hero of the day. How the fuck did he and the car survive that and continue on to 7th? Crazy.

7th? You so crazy!

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FfzLlMwXEAIynoO.jpg

I agree, what Stroll did merits a couple of points on his license.

And TV direction should have shown the end of Vettel's best race this year instead of that corporate ghoul who had no idea of how to wave a checkered flag. Billionaires are such a fucking bore!

[JoeW]

BS penalty on Alonso. Jeezus. Either way that was a fucking boss drive after popping a 200ft wheelie and hitting the wall.

It really irritates me how celebrities who know fuck all about the sport are allowed on pre race grid walk and when a “grid walk” interview legend tries to interview them, they treat him like a fucking loser fanboy. If they ever watched a single race they would show the man some respect and give a few words. Brad Pitt looked like a fucking asshole after that.

[Tom Servo]

Russell equals douchebag. T bones Sainz and then has the balls to blame Sainz. Only a 5 sec penalty for ruining a race…what a shame. Would have liked to see Sainz fighting up there.

Man, could not disagree more. From my viewpoint, Sainz misjudged the undercut and braked hard then cut inside on corner exit, I don't see how Russell could avoid that without tiptoeing through T1. Sainz drove like a Forza AI driver, just randomly braking when he should be on the gas.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Yeah, I’d say that’s a racing incident, not really sure why Russell deserved a 5s penalty. Sainz really didn’t have to turn in so much and Russell really shouldn’t have gone into that turn so hot.

Anyway, too bad Alonso had to be penalized for losing a mirror… that was an amazing recovery before they handed him the penalty…

Lastly, I think Max and RB has clearly proven themselves true champion today…, even if they did spend a bit extra money. ;) hey, Perez is in the same car, you just don’t see the same level of performance though.

[Blerpa]

Russell was an idiot.
He can whine all he wants but, unless the driver ahead brake check is it ALWAYS the responsability, and blame, on the driver behind.
They are racing, not hotlapping to take the theoretical perfect racing line (which, spoiler, does not exist, since every racer has her owns and not always the same as the couch potato analysts' chosen one).
5 Seconds is a joke.

Shame on Alpine for not fixing the mirror. We are all discussing about excessive penalization... I wonder if that mirror would have gone and done a Felipe Massa - coil accident what we would be saying.
Stroll made a mistake, it happens, even at the best drivers, which he is not. Costly and dangerous... like every race in motorsports. No need to crucify him for errors done in the past by the likes of Coulthard and many other more prestigious drivers.

RE: safety vehicles on track.
It is true, the drivers should slow the fuck down. Correct.
Too bad there's that idiotic Delta crap to have to follow and so there are instances they have to go quicker to catch up, while having to keep tyres on temperature which is extremely difficult under slow speed.

Just equip cars with a second button, similarly to the pit limiter one, that limits the speed of every cars to a fixed one, instead of useless delta timings and boring shit like that.

Race was boring as fuck for the first three quarters, aside from two incidents.
A boring track as well does not help the show.

[JoeW]

It’s funny in the cooldown room…

LeClerc…what happened to Sainz?

Hamilton…George took him out.

I would pay to hear the cooldown room conversations in their entirety. You get the most genuine interactions in there.

You can tell Austin is really hard on the drivers with all the high G cornering sections. Hamilton was breathing quite hard during his post race interview. Those guys worked hard yesterday.

[FaultyMario]

Stroll made a mistake, it happens, even at the best drivers, which he is not. Costly and dangerous... like every race in motorsports. No need to crucify him for errors done in the past by the likes of Coulthard and many other more prestigious drivers.


Leclerc, Tsunoda, Russell they all have made that sort of last minute defense move. That shit is dangerous and the FIA needs to throw the book at all of them.

Vettel (by a wide margin), Perez, Hamilton are in the opposite end of hard but clean racing.

[FaultyMario]

It’s funny in the cooldown room…

LeClerc…what happened to Sainz?

Hamilton…George took him out.

I would pay to hear the cooldown room conversations in their entirety. You get the most genuine interactions in there.

You can tell Austin is really hard on the drivers with all the high G cornering sections. Hamilton was breathing quite hard during his post race interview. Those guys worked hard yesterday.

Wasn't that the case in the Rosberg years, before the stupid interviews on pitlane?

[Blerpa]

https://i.imgur.com/BrrTCDF.png

"You're being a gentleman but the guy cut you off completely. It was a racing incident. He needed to be aware you were there." <- and here we have a brit clown fanboy.
It is not cutting off on the M5, but racing.
As others said Sainz took another line as simple as it happens in racing.
Meanwhile he got t-boned by over optimistic second driver at Mercedes.

DEAL WITH IT, Georgy boy, since we will add also Sainz to the long list of drivers you have profusedly punted or hit during racing.
Still good he apologized.
He has enough speed and talent to not be insulted as Stroll frequently is, but his racecraft is marred by sudden brainfarts which often result in amateur incidents.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Russell was an idiot.
He can whine all he wants but, unless the driver ahead brake check is it ALWAYS the responsability, and blame, on the driver behind.
They are racing, not hotlapping to take the theoretical perfect racing line (which, spoiler, does not exist, since every racer has her owns and not always the same as the couch potato analysts' chosen one).
5 Seconds is a joke.

What kinda of penalty would you give to George if you were the race director?

I personally still think Sainz's mistake was carelessness, but Stroll's was intentional. So I think Stroll deserved bigger penalty. (Not saying Sainz deserve any penalty, just saying people in front need to be careful sometimes too.)

I think Sainz was all about trying to get back the position from Max and he was driving as if there are nobody behind them. Obviously he had a poor launch... and he was super wide going into the turn... and then cuts right to the apex of the turn. I think George was caught off guard that he'd turn in so much and he was committed to his line so much he had no way to avoid hitting him. I just didn't think George intentionally took him out. Unlike what Hamilton did to Max in UK last year. Max left enough room, but Hamilton was truly being an idiot that time.

Anyway, just my perspective. I could be wrong of course. For sure George apologize for his part of mistake and moved on. Sainz could've just gotten away properly and be taken out by Max. So he does share some blame as well. :p Of course, it is a damn shame that he couldn't take home some points for Ferrari.

[Tom Servo]

Russell was an idiot.

...

Stroll made a mistake, it happens, even at the best drivers

I honestly have no idea how these two thoughts can be in the same head simultaneously.

[Blerpa]

"I think Sainz was all about trying to get back the position from Max and he was driving as if there are nobody behind them"

You have to drive as if there is nobody behind you, because, unless you are waving incontrollably, you have rights to any line since you are ahead and who is behind has to shut her mouth, suck it up and care not to hit you.
I don't think it was intentional in the sense of doing it on purpose to spear into Sainz and let him DNS, but he choose to be there and risk it.
And this is one of the most common accidents at the start in T1 at COTA in F1 games.

I'm not a Ferrari fan at all, actually I have way more simpathy towards Hamilton and Russell, but this looked like a shitty move anyway.
I would have given him a 10, if not 30, second Stop and Go. Harsh? Probably.
And is that enough to ruin his race? Well, he ruined another driver race at T1, lap 1, like an online sim rookie, so suits him well.

Also, forgot about the fact that once again there was a race made about track limits. LAME. Terribly lame.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Maybe I'm just out of date regarding general racing rules/etiquette... I can't agree that we can afford to take the same line during qualifying and during racing when there are hungry racers behind you.

If you leave a door wide open going into a turn and then close it quickly, accidents are bound to happen... especially during the 1st turn of 1st lap.

I personally would consider these as racing incidents. Both drivers being idiots.

Of those top 4 cars, only Sainz took a 'weird' line. Yes, you're definitely entitled to whatever line you want to take, but if you merge into a line another racer's committed to, crashes are bound to happen. You could see puff of tire smoke from George... he was on edge and really couldn't move out of the way... whereas Sainz really had plenty of other places to go. If all 4 of them move along the same flow, pretty sure that crash won't happen.

I personally think their damaged cars were probably penalty enough.

Sainz was definitely not blameless for not finishing the race.

If driver in front really could always take whatever line they want, then Stroll also made zero mistakes. Alonso should be the one assessed a 30s penalty, right? 30s more for the mirror?

I know the situations are completely different, but point is, driver in front also need to pay some attention to cars behind... or at least don't become unpredictable for the cars behind. Sainz left open a big gap and George went for it. Idiotic maybe..., but that's what racers do. The go for the gap. They try to go as fast as they could during yellow flag... even in rain with poor visibility. Safety vehicle on track or not...

We enjoy watching them because they're skilled idiots. When they pulled their stunts off, we cheer loudly for them! :p Of course heros can quickly become zeros when they crash...

[Blerpa]

One thing: racing lines DO NOT EXIST rigidly.
Theory is one thing, but as there are videos or was articles (I wish to be able to remember about it, maybe it was Aidan Millward or Josh Revell) out there explaining how Hamilton often in his career took lines that defy the theory behind racing lines and getting still positive outcomes out of it the reality is: you are where you are, and who is behind you must care.
Racing is dynamic and done out of reaction to other drivers actions, so during racing - and not hotlapping - you put yourself where you can, not caring about the "right line"... as long as do not harm viciously others.

Also I said "unless you are waving incontrollably". I could also add needlessly since it was on a straight in the case of Stroll. Which is not the issue here.

[Blerpa]

I honestly have no idea how these two thoughts can be in the same head simultaneously.

Easy: Stroll made an asinine mistake - potentially dangerous - but was crucified as usual.
Russell made an asinine mistake same as Stroll, in T1 lap 1 like a total newbie in sunday club, but yet a whole bunch of apologists ran at his defense.
Maybe he should focus more on not hitting others, like he has done the whole season, and try to manage the pressure of Hamilton catching up quickly to him in the standings.

[Crazed_Insanity]

No argument there about 'theoretical' racing lines. Also no argument about waving unnecessarily.

Regardless of the situation, driver behind will probably try to 'predict' the line the driver in front will take. When one predicts incorrectly, collision will probably happen.

My take of the situation is that Sainz was really not going with the flow of the traffic of the top 4 cars. After Max passed him, he went super wide, probably setup himself up for a better exit speed after turn 1 in order to catch Max..., but there are 2 hungry Mercedes behind you. Leaving the door wide open and then expect both Mercedes will yield to you? I just think that's wishful thinking.

Now the differences between Stroll and Russell are: 1) Russell doesn't have a billionaire dad, 2) Russell as a jr. teammate has scored more points than his world champion teammate.

I can totally understand why people are on stroll's case.

However, I have to say I was pretty impressed by Stroll's performance this weekend. AM has also obviously improved? Or maybe just particularly suited for this track.

[Rare White Ape]

Russell’s mistake might have been that he predicted Sainz would use the whole track. By the time he got there, he was committed, and Sainz had taken a tighter line.

Still, it’s no defence to say that he thought Sainz would be further across or that he took a non-typical line. It is L1, T1 after all, and that’s racing for you. But I guess the stewards weighed that up in their decision making and applied a penalty they thought appropriate.

I suppose they penalise the act, not the consequence of the act. This might be why the penalty seems really lenient given that Sainz retired.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Russell definitely made a mistake. However, compared to Stroll's mistake, I think it's less severe because I don't believe George's mistake was intentional. Stroll's move was clearly intentional and totally avoidable. However, Alonso did appear to be way too close to Stroll. Although rules specified that racers cannot weave out front, but rules also stipulated that racers need to slow down during yellow as well. Racers will be racers. Alonso should not have trusted that billionaire kid would obey rules and just give up his position so easily.

Anyway, hungry idiotic racers are very fun for us to watch though... :p Just glad nobody's hurt, except their egos.

[Tom Servo]

Easy: Stroll made an asinine mistake - potentially dangerous - but was crucified as usual.
Russell made an asinine mistake same as Stroll, in T1 lap 1 like a total newbie in sunday club, but yet a whole bunch of apologists ran at his defense.
Maybe he should focus more on not hitting others, like he has done the whole season, and try to manage the pressure of Hamilton catching up quickly to him in the standings.

Like RWA said, Sainz took a abnormal line through the corner that Russell didn't expect. Stroll HIT A GUY ON A STRAIGHTAWAY.

I understand that there's disagreement here about how much fault Russell had, but the dismissing of Stroll's move as just a simple mistake blows my mind. That was maybe the dumbest thing I've seen anyone do all year.

[Blerpa]

I did not mean to undermine Stroll's mistake. It was a brainfart. And yes dangerous.
But yet he is not Al Pease or Inoue. And we have seen errors like this even from more navigated drivers. Terrible mistake? Yes. Unique? Incredibly not.

I only disagree on the fact that he is frequently under scrutiny (for the right reasons, obviously) but Russell gets a go, while he has been hitting people constantly the whole season.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Like I said, people probably hate Stroll more because they're jealous of his rich daddy that's all. Daddy bought him his own team!!!

George got his seat totally on merit and he is scoring more points than Hamilton. I'm not so sure what you mean by George hitting people constantly all season. He can't possibly score more points than HAM if he were really doing that. Naturally Russell is far from perfect, but I think russell's worst offense that I remember was him hitting Bottas. That was a truly bonehead move for a Williams thinking that Bottas in a Mercedes should yield and let him pass.

Anyway, I still think that incident last weekend should've been a racing incident. Sainz probably saw Hamilton behind, but failed to see Russell as he cuts across. Russell also should not have came in that hot. If I were race director, I'd blame them 50/50 and not assess penalties, but then again, nobody made me race director. So whatever. :p

I'm sure both Sainz, Russell... and even Stroll walked away as better drivers in the future... I hope.

[Tom Servo]

That's fair. I guess I need to go back though and see what Russel's been up to. I have not gotten the Maldonado vibe from him, but I honestly haven't been paying that much attention to him.

[JoeW]

If you leave a door wide open going into a turn and then close it quickly, accidents are bound to happen...




Except when the door you want to drive through is already occupied by a car.

That entire post was just bizarrely ridiculous coming from someone who watches racing...or at least highlight clips of racing....

[Crazed_Insanity]

You’re entitled to your opinion of leaving the door wide open and not drive defensively into a turn when racing. You can blame the guy behind you all you want, but you’ll be the one getting knocked out of the race though… by shutting the door like that.

Again, never said Russell shared no responsibility, but I see it as a racing incident. Meaning both drivers share the fault nearly 50/50.

Like senna’s famous quote, if you see a gap and you don’t go for it because you might knock Sainz out of the race, then you might as well retire from racing.

I think you’re just upset because your fantasy driver was knocked out! :p

[FaultyMario]

I have not gotten the Maldonado vibe from him, but I honestly haven't been paying that much attention to him.

Out of his cohort (Russell, Albon, Norris plus Leclerc and Gasly if we also include them), I'd rank Russell as the worse racer, with Gasly a close second. I'd say Albon is the more complete of that lot with Leclerc as the most talented.

Norris is a difficult one to evaluate, because unlike Albon and Leclerc, he has not been under the pressure of driving a race-winner ("They race me so hard!"). I find Leclerc and Gasly are pretty similar: they both are explosive and at times all-too-eager, and while Pierre is a very good driver, Charles' talent is generational 1.

Of that group, I think Lando has the better situational awareness, but I am afraid the grindstone of the midfield will blunt even the sharpest of swords.

[FaultyMario]

My definition of generational talent: Say that, like in a video game, you can rank a driver's attributes in a scale of 10.

Every decade or so, a guy will show up with at least three of those attributes turned to 11. It's usually something intangible like determination (Schumacher, Hamilton), focus (Prost, Vettel) or aggression (Senna, Verstappen). Which with some good guidance and the right career moves they can depend on while they develop those other areas where they might be lacking.

I might be wrong on this, but I feel Schumacher's domination was due in part to his rivals not developing into the monsters they had the potential to be. Villeneuve was always more interested in money than in developing his aggression, Montoya got tired of politickering before he had a mature sense of focus, and Kimi found the will to lead a team only after his other abilities had waned.

[Crazed_Insanity]

How can you rank Russell as the worst of the bunch?!?!? I'd rank Gasly as the worst... by comparing him with Albon in RB cars... At least Albon performed better and lasted longer with the team...

I'd place Leclerc, Russell and Norris at about similar level considering how they've managed to kick their teammate's ass pretty consistently. Russell able to hold his own against Lewis Hamilton is pretty amazing as it is.

Can you imagine some newbie signed up with Ferrari and then was able to score more points than Michael Schumacher?

Anyway, I really don't understand why some people continue to hate drivers such as Max or George when they make mistakes sometimes. Isn't it clear that they are able to consistently beat their teammates? George should've won his maiden race with Mercedes too if the team didn't let him down. I just thought it's pretty amazing to be able to shine like that while having a teammate like HAM.

Now, I think Sainz is a good driver as well. He obviously wasn't too far behind Norris in McLaren... and he is also not too far behind Leclerc... he's clearly way more adaptable than Ricciardo. He's not a proven #1, but clearly able to go fast driving for whatever team. Maybe someday things will click together and he'll be able to challenge the team leaders for wins? Maybe he just need to learn to be able to handle the pressure of qualifying for pole position better? Pretty sure he'll get better as he gain more experience. His career is definitely not fucked like Ricciardo, a proven race winner!

[FaultyMario]

2 things about Russell. I never said he was a bad driver, he just sucks at wheel to wheel battling. How bad do you need to be to crash into VB?

Where did you get the idea that he has been on par with Hamilton this season? do you only look at the results?

[Blerpa]

Where did you get the idea that he has been on par with Hamilton this season? do you only look at the results?

Seemingly he does since he refers mainly at points and statistics.
Also comparing to other motorsports thinking Russell is on par with Hamilton is like thinking Criville was on par with Doohan in the world motorbike championship.

BTW, the generational post is very good, I agree with it, Mario.

[FaultyMario]

https://twitter.com/i/status/1584906893180518401

[Blerpa]

Also about Russell seemingly dominating Hamilton (since some are so interested in statistics):

Qualifying: Hamilton 11 vs 8 Russell
Races: Hamilton 9 vs 12 Russell
Podiums: Hamilton 4 Third places, 3 Second Places vs. Russell 6 Third places, 1 Second place
Poles: Hamilton 0 vs 1 Russell

Also by statistics we should think then that Ocon is better than Alonso or that Ricciardo was better in Mclaren than Norris because the australian won a race and Lando none LOL

[Crazed_Insanity]

2 things about Russell. I never said he was a bad driver, he just sucks at wheel to wheel battling. How bad do you need to be to crash into VB?

Where did you get the idea that he has been on par with Hamilton this season? do you only look at the results?

Yeah, that crash with Bottas was definitely the most boneheaded move I've seen. Perhaps he was just trying way too hard to prove that he deserves that seat?

Anyway, yes, I'm only rating George's performance using points. He has also out qualified HAM at times. These metrics count for something, right? Isn't it these metrics that got Ricciardo fired? When you can't out-qualify nor out score your teammate, why should the team continue to pay you so much money?

IMHO, as long as you can show the team points, some crashes are probably acceptable. In fact, if you've rarely lost control and crash, you probably are not close enough to the limit! :p

[FaultyMario]

Races: Hamilton 9 vs 12 Russell


I don't think that's correct, there must be a DNF or two for either of them. The metric should be their finishing position when both finished the race.

[FaultyMario]

And we have seen errors like this even from more navigated drivers. Terrible mistake? Yes. Unique? Incredibly not.

I remember a similar crash from Alonso when Gutiérrez lift-and-coasted in the approach to T3 in Australia.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Also about Russell seemingly dominating Hamilton (since some are so interested in statistics):

Qualifying: Hamilton 11 vs 8 Russell
Races: Hamilton 9 vs 12 Russell
Podiums: Hamilton 4 Third places, 3 Second Places vs. Russell 6 Third places, 1 Second place
Poles: Hamilton 0 vs 1 Russell

Also by statistics we should think then that Ocon is better than Alonso or that Ricciardo was better in Mclaren than Norris because the australian won a race and Lando none LOL

Ocon is probably better than Alonso. Just never had the machinery to prove it. If anything, his younger reflex should be better than old Alonso. Alonso is also the type who'd jump ship when he encourters a strong teammate.

Ricciardo is clearly subpar compared to Norris. He is obviously a 'proven winner' and even won a race for McLaren, but no matter how one interprets the stats, even Ricciardo is probably disappointed at himself.

Just remember that Hamilton the rookie tied with Alonso in points. Granted George isn't a rookie, but still a rookie in Mercedes... and he is beating his multi-champ teammate in terms of points. That doesn't mean anything? This is not just George being lucky in the beginning of a season... the season is almost over. George has significant points lead over HAM. Has Bottas ever been ahead of HAM in terms of points like this? Anyway, I've also noticed HAM don't drive as well when he doesn't have a champ winning car... so perhaps this can be a factor. One true way to gauge George's performance is when Mercedes once again has a winning car and then the duo battling for championship...

As for this season, maybe George would DNF the remaining races and HAM could win 1 or 2 races to prove himself. We'll see.

My point is, if you're the teammate of a proven champ and you can score comparable amount of points, you'll probably have a bright future ahead. (I won't count Stroll, because Vettel is no longer at his prime and who knows perhaps daddy hired him to drive and perhaps sabotages Vettels car just to prove how good his son is... Anyway, Stroll didn't outscore Vettel anyways... :p)

[Blerpa]

You really said Ocon is probably better than Alonso.
Dear lord. I just cannot.

[JoeW]

I'm surprised you replied....I read it and just couldn't find the will to type anything meaningful...

[Crazed_Insanity]

Alonso is old. He is a great driver and has proven himself, but do you guys really think age is irrelevant? I know points aren't everything, but I don't understand why points seem to be meaningless to you guys. I honestly cannot see Senna or Max take it very well to have a jr teammate out scoring them. Prost, Alonso and Vettel certainly couldn't handle it so they left the team when a hot newbie kicked their asses. Old Schumacher decided to return to retirement when it's clear he couldn't out score Rosberg... I think only a crazy team owner like Frank Williams who'd fire his drivers for scoring more points than everyone else that season.

Now, I would not call Ricciardo a bad driver, but his lack of points did cause him to lose his seat.

Ocon did score more than Alonso this season, but Ricciardo sure kicked Ocon's ass when he was at Renault. Alonso did a fine job last weekend, but I think it should be clear that he's getting old and not his former younger self. Russell did score more than Hamilton. Understandably this is just one season. Key is consistency. Can they do it season after season? Ricciardo kicked Vettel's ass. However, he failed to kick Max's and Norris'... so unless a great opportunity presents itself, his career is probably over eventhough I still think he's a great driver. However, points are pointing to the fact that Ricciardo just isn't that great.

Anyway, doesn't matter what I say. It'll be up to Ocon and Russell to prove themselves whether if they can match/surpass their multi-champ teammates. Not so sure about Ocon, but I think Russell could probably be multi-champ... considering his age and his ride.

Max's main next generation rivals will probably be Russell, Leclerc, Norris... Of the 3, I'd probably rate Norris the highest of the 3. Again just my crazy 2 cents. :p

I really wish all 4 of them can be teammates so I can compare them by the points they scored. ;)

[Yobbo NZ]

Scott Dixon has proven age isn't really a factor. I'd also wager if Alonso was fulltime in Indycar, Scott would wipe the floor with him. Actually, both Kiwi Scott's would I reckon.
I think Fernando was lucky with car/team choices over his career and very Senna-esq with team mates, who he could try and dominate. Didn't work all the time though.

[FaultyMario]

Sauber, I choo choo choose you! (https://www.audi-mediacenter.com/en/press-releases/audi-selects-sauber-as-strategic-partner-for-formula-1-entry-14981)

[Crazed_Insanity]

To me, it's mind boggling why VW will have 2 totally separate entries into F1 and not pool its resources. Toyota pretty much went all in, but failed to deliver jack! :p Anyway, I suppose VW has its reasons and Audi and Porsche have traditionally competed against each other...

Another mind bending moment for me is that we now have 2 additional manufacturers entering F1, yet, overall # of teams remain the freaking same.

[Blerpa]

To me, it's mind boggling why VW will have 2 totally separate entries into F1 and not pool its resources. Toyota pretty much went all in, but failed to deliver jack! :p Anyway, I suppose VW has its reasons and Audi and Porsche have traditionally competed against each other...

Another mind bending moment for me is that we now have 2 additional manufacturers entering F1, yet, overall # of teams remain the freaking same.

In GT racing VAG has Audi, Porsche and Lamborghini as well in the same series.
In LMH/LMDh it will have Lamborghini and Porsche. Audi was supposed to, but they froze their LMH project.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I know. It's super nice of VW to respect their racing history like that. I'm just surprised that no bean counters in VW decided to stop such practice of spending money to compete with itself! Anyway, I was just pleasantly surprised by VW's decision/strategy for allowing them to compete like that I guess. :up: Honda and Toyota couldn't even commit to funding a single team! Now I do wonder how committed VW is... will Audi and Porsche be determined to win championships or will they pull out when going gets tough?

Now the Porsche deal fell thru. Wonder what's gonna happen with them. If AT is out of the question, then only other teams left would be Haas and Williams? Or maybe AM will step aside? I am secretly hoping a partnership with Andretti so we can have a brand new team, but that'd be super risky move considering it'll be a partnership with all parties having zero 'modern' F1 experience...

[XHawkeye]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ff_CDY3WYAAkAo3.jpg

[Blerpa]

A note to the pic that XHawkeye posted: from 1958 to 1978 only the highest-scoring driver in each race for each constructor contributed points towards the Championship.
Also Matra championship is the only one ever won by a privateer team (Matra cars were run by Tyrrell team).

In Grand Prix times we had the following winners: Alfa Romeo (1925), Bugatti (1926) and Delage (1927).

Then manufacturers were counted again since 1931 with the AIACR European Championship (AIACR being the grandfather of FIA, European Championship being basically F1), and it run till 1939, with a hiatus in 1933-34.
No real manufacturer championships were awarded, but presumedly Alfa Romeo won the first two (although it is not clear from a quick search with what team, since Ferrari, Maserati and Bugatti all fielded Alfa Romeos) while Mercedes (3) and Auto-Union (1 - basically Audi) dominated the last four years.
1939 driver championship was not officially awarded; Nazi claimed Lang won, although by the convoluted point system it seemed clear his fellow countryman Muller would have won.

Curious about the AIACR point system? You are in for a generational shock.

"Unlike the modern Formula One points system, the championship awarded fewer points for higher finishes; the champion would be the driver who ended the season on the lowest points score.
The championship awarded one, two and three points to first, second and third places respectively.
Other competitors were awarded points based on the percentage of the race distance they completed, as follows:

>75% 4
50–75% 5
25–50% 6
<25% 7

Not entering, or failing to start the race, earned the driver eight points.
Drivers only scored points with the car they entered the race with.
In 1931, co-drivers were eligible to score championship points, but only from the car they were assigned to at the start, and provided that they had completed a stint in the car during the race.
From 1932 onwards, if a driver handed his car over to another driver mid-race, only the original driver would score points from the car's final position."

https://f1.fandom.com/wiki/Points read here for an example of the bullshit that was the "dropped race rule", which robbed drivers and teams of legit championships.

[Rare White Ape]

Is that from back when they raced from Reims to Monte Carlo and if the passenger didn't oil the rear diff enough they would be penalised with an additional three points, AND the car would spin out killing both of them?

[Phil_SS]

I've never seen that Brabham logo before. I guess for somewhat good reason, it was used in the mid 80's. They should have used the Repco Brabham logo for that era.

[Rare White Ape]

The McLaren logo dates back to the late-90s as well, when they switched from Marlboro to West.

It used to be the classic Marlboro chevron with a pointed top, set at an angle. Image below. When West came in it was sprinkled with added swoopyness.

Even post-ciggie advertising it has remained, and even became part of the design language for the road car division. So you can thank Phillip Morris for all of that.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/ff/Mika_Hakkinen_1995_Britain_2.jpg

[Tom Servo]

I had no idea about that, I did always kinda wonder where that swoopy boring logo came from.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I had no idea too. I was thinking for sure McLaren did not have that swoopy thing back in 1974 when xhawkeye posted that pic. :p

The upside down Nike symbol looks good on road cars I guess.

To Blerpa...

What a fucking confusing point system they have back then? No wonder you guys don't like to read into the points so much. :lol:

[FaultyMario]

I don't know why but I felt a sudden urge to go thru 2 packs of marlboro reds. I went to where the flavor is.

[FaultyMario]

Speaking of ciggies, Carlos Slim refined most of his cost-slashing techniques in the 80s, working both for PMI and for its competition in Mexico. He owned stocks in the two biggest tobacco companies Tabacalera Mexicana (which produced the local Marlboros, leading brand) and in La Moderna (which made the brands Raleigh and Montana, #2 and #4, respectively).

Funny thing is, you could not watch any motorsports at that time that wasn't plastered with Montana logos. So his association with racing cars goes a long time. I guess it's a good vehicle for his businesses.

http://www.cigarety.by/img/HM0001380.jpg

Some say that the similarities were not limited to the logo, but that Mr. Slim used his inside knowledge of how Marlboros were made to come up with the perfect substitute.

He later sold his Tabacalera stock to PMI and Moderna to BAT, and used the money as the downpayment on his Telecomm empire.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Oh wow, so that's how Mr. fat boy Slim started his telecom empire... smart move.

Anyway, it's amazing how anti-smokes we are. Starting off by putting out ciggies and we're now getting ready to put out ICEies themselves. ;)

[Blerpa]

This is the original Repco Brabham logo (although the cobra is correct, the team did have that logo in the 1984 and 1990 - 1992)

https://i.imgur.com/5xLgsBm.jpg



These are the two original Mclaren logos. The stylized black kiwi (sometimes white) is called by Mclaren "Speedy Kiwi", and it often appeared on an orange or papaya background/livery which is known as "Mclaren Orange".

https://i.imgur.com/Q23G1ei.jpg



This is a secondary logo Mclaren has sported since 1976 till 1990 because of the Marlboro sponsorship.

https://i.imgur.com/oUjwHcF.png



And here you can see the evolution of the logos, from the Marlboro shape in the 1981 - 1990 logo with the so called "Rocket Red", which was converted to a chevron by 1991 onward.
Then in 1997 the chevron became what Mclaren calls "McLaren Speedmark" or "The Speedmark", which is implied also by Mclaren sport and hyper road cars' design, and yet remind the Speedy Kiwi as well.

https://i.imgur.com/KaktfCd.png



If you want to see other F1 team logos you can go to:
https://logos.fandom.com/wiki/Category:Formula_One_constructors

[Yobbo NZ]

I did read, McLaren still have a Speedy Kiwi on each car somewhere.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Wow! Cool! Thanks for the info, I really had no idea! :up:

[FaultyMario]

Sad that we can't have this circuit the weekend, look at those esses! Hopefully the cars can stay close for most of the lap. I hope to see some hard racing in the midfield.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5aN0bqsbKug

[JoeW]

Alonso P7 restored :)

[Crazed_Insanity]

That's a better call. It's really kinda stupid to decide that a car is all of a sudden 'unsafe' after the race.

I also think it's also good that RB will have even less wind tunnel time due to their budget cap breach. Adrian Newey will have less time to work with and that should help Mercedes and Ferrari catch up more...

Hope these stupid protests can be behind us and we can all look forward to the future now.

Although I heard RB's breach involved an unclaimed tax credit. Why are they looking at tax credits? Why should a 'budget' involve a tax credit? They should just look at their spending, period!

Assuming we include tax credits, if I buy an EV that costs $57,500 and government gave me $7,500 tax credit. That means this EV costs me $50,000. If I don't claim that tax credit, then EV will cost me the full price of $57,500.

If claiming that tax credit would make them legal, why not just freaking claim that tax credit? Governments will claim that you snooze you lose? We won't credit you retroactively? That's certainly possible, but most of the time if government owes you money, it will pay you back.

I just find it unbelievable that RB accountants are that stupid. The conspiracy theorist in me thinks there's most likely more to it than this. Anyway, they need better rules and enforcement of rules to crack down on future cheaters... or if that's not really possible, then just forget about budget caps.

[FaultyMario]

Again you're wrong.

In your example, you would be asking to be credited the $7,500 that your electrician didn't get a rebate for when he bought his new EV van.

[Crazed_Insanity]

In US, each state may have different tax credit/rebates for EVs… naturally each f1 team may be based in different locations with different tax laws. I do agree that this budget cap really should NOT include tax incentives because you’re right, not all teams may enjoy that same tax incentives!

Anyway, article I read in ESPN F1 sounded like RB failed to claim this tax credit, that’s how they went over… which just doesn’t quite make sense to me.

Whatever, I do believe RB should receive more than just a monetary penalty. Reduction of wind tunnel time will be good for all concern.

[FaultyMario]

So first, Alonso's all like:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FgPBx1ZXoAAQuCF.jpg

And I'm like, "Dude, he beat you as teammates, you should be more careful with words".

But then, Josef Newgarden's like:


Imagine having to race the entire field, like in @IndyCar.

[FaultyMario]

I'm just hoping Russell can do a George Russell on Verstappen.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Hamilton tied with him as a rookie teammate. Didn’t quite beat him. :p

Anyway, I get the feeling that George is going to win one for Mercedes and Ocon will score more points than Alonso! ;)

AM seems to returned to its usual form? So Austin track must’ve really suited their cars? Also surprised to see Ferraris so weak this week… at least with qualifying. Can we really expect Ferraris to do better in the race?

[FaultyMario]

Sowy, but no, Hamilton had more podium places, which is the second tie-breaker.

[FaultyMario]

AM seems to returned to its usual form?

Pirelli chose the wrong compounds. Betting houses made a killing, as most people had put money on mid 16s poles.

Combination of greener track and colder temperatures.

[JoeW]

Really wild stat that the last 11 times here have 11 different pole sitters.

[FaultyMario]

I don't know, but 2022 shows that Mercedes shouldn't have dropped VB for GR.

If LH has signed a 3-year contract, then Russell is facing one big fucking mountain climb in '23. I wouldn't write off a Norris drive in the near future if Russell doesn't up his game.

[FaultyMario]

So first, Alonso's all like: "It's different when you win seven world championships having only to fight against your teammate."

And then Hamilton goes and posts:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FgR8sfFWIAsWsxj.jpg

[Tom Servo]

That's only a decent clapback if Alonso was talking about his own world titles.

[Blerpa]

Yeah yeah, whatever you say Fernando.

On more practical matters: Haas is going to veer toward Hulkenberg to replace Mick Schumacher.
I feel sorry for the guy, but shit happens.
Giovinazzi is going to be fielded on the Ferrari 499P Le Mans effort, meanwhile.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I can agree with Alonso if the team deliberately signs #2 drivers and prevents them to challenge you…

However, even for schuey, he did after all help rebuild Ferraris success… his team building talent is still pretty amazing as a driver.

Anyway, it’s pretty amazing why he would say something like a Billi? ;) I did hold Alonso with a pretty high regard before until the time Hamilton the rookie showed up side by side with him. As he ages, I really doubt he’ll be able to do much better than Vettel. Just shut up and drive and let people talk about your amazing recovery and stop talking about others! :p

[FaultyMario]

Hulkenberg

:rolleyes:

Why not JEV or Stoffel, you know? drivers with clutch.

[FaultyMario]

:|

[JoeW]

As much as I’m not a Russell fan, he was right about the tires. He should have gone long on the original mediums and put on softs at around lap 45-50. Probably would have caught Perez.

Mercedes thought they were being clever by one stopping with the Hards but RBR was even more clever by getting the mediums to last 50+ laps with plenty to spare it seems.

Otherwise fairly boring race. Max just in a class by himself.

I think the penalty for causing a collision needs to be more like a stop and go instead of 5-10secs. Especially when you ruin a race.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Max is really a bit too dominating… hopefully RB will be slower with less wind tunnel time…

However, it appears RB future challenger will be Mercedes’ rather than Ferrari.

Anyway, glad to see Perez on podium at home. Ricciardo surprisingly pulled a worse George Russell than George Russell. I’d agree Ricciardo was more at fault for that incident. Surprised to see him still ahead of Norris though. I kinda agree penalty probably need to be more severe with an actual stop and go in this case…

Hope Mercedes’ will figure out their tires better next time. I like Max, but if this is allowed to continue, things will get boring real quick.

[JoeW]

Shades of Hamilton in days gone past...too dominant to be of any entertainment value. But damn you are getting bored early. It took you guys 5 or 6 WDC before you got bored of Hamilton. Only 2 in his pocket for Max and you're bored already...

[Crazed_Insanity]

I got bored with all of them successive champs pretty quickly.

Last season was way more entertaining, right? This season got off to a great start, but Ferrari self destructed mid season and Mercedes had a bad design from the start. At least it looks like they’re recovering. Once the red and silver teams got their act together, it should be fun to watch. Hoping the orange team improves too!

[JoeW]

If it weren’t for reliability the Alpine is by far the best of the rest. But sadly they break down quite often.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Yeah, for a 'manufacturer', their effort has been embarrassing, right? It'd be even more embarrassing if they fail being best of rest... Renault used to be so fast. I don't quite understand what happened, but something is obviously wrong... to have Alonso abandoning ship like that. I'm not so sure AM is the better team, at least not with Stroll in charge.

[Blerpa]

Shades of Hamilton in days gone past...too dominant to be of any entertainment value. But damn you are getting bored early. It took you guys 5 or 6 WDC before you got bored of Hamilton. Only 2 in his pocket for Max and you're bored already...

I'm not bored: F1 is made of cyclical dominance. And that's how it has to be.
If people want to see "entertainment" there are always peasants' series like Indycars or soapbox racing.
I just do not like Max at all, I still find his racecraft dubious and so on.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Maybe my favorite driver was Nigel Mansell... I seemed to love F1 and Indycars the most when Nigel was driving them! :lol:

I lost interest of Indycars when they split due to their political differences... That annoyed me the most than F1's boring dominance. Or perhaps after Nigel totally obliterated and dominated in Indycars... that made me realized maybe indycar drivers just aren't that good? JV was the only sorta successful F1 bound Indy driver. But he had a superior ride and never had a serious teammate... Anyway, whatever the reasons, slowly I just lost interests in Indycars...

I understand sometimes F1 will have a dominating team every once in a while. Obviously I've been accepting this reality for decades. However, I just thought it was way more engaging to watch somebody like Senna in inferior car battling the superior Williams. We sorta had that again last year when Max Challenged Ham. Win or lose, I just wish that last lap fiasco didn't happen.

Anyway, if you don't mind me asking, what is considered as 'dubious' racecraft?

Also, can we go thru past modern day champs and rank who were the least dubious ones? ;)

[JoeW]

So why was the Mexico crowd booing Lewis? I wasn’t aware of any particular hatred that Mexico had for Lewis.

[FaultyMario]

The crowd was full of fifas.

[JoeW]

I don’t follow FIFA. I assume Lewis has his hand in a FIFA team that Mexico hates?

[FaultyMario]

This type of fairweather fans:

https://nitter.net/pic/orig/media%2FFP7TQCUWYAYZ86F.jpg

[Crazed_Insanity]

I don't follow at all... :?

[JoeW]

Watching the MotoGP finale reminds me of the level of comeraderie between the riders. Sure would be great to see F1 drivers having these same interactions.

[Freude am Fahren]

I think there's more than Netflix, Sky or even their own team leaders would lead you to believe.

[FaultyMario]

I don't follow at all... :?

Young males with egos so fragile, that they become harmful when their feelings are hurt.

[Crazed_Insanity]

So why boo Hamilton? He prevented Perez from a 2nd place?

[FaultyMario]

You wanna know about harmful behavior from crowds? go right ahead mafren...

[Blerpa]

https://i.imgur.com/d6b4Xyo.png

[Blerpa]

Domenicali softens on new F1 team or snubbing Andretti? (https://www.grandprix247.com/2022/11/08/domenicali-softens-on-new-f1-team-or-snubbing-andretti/)

I mean, money and solidity-wise, who the fuck are Andrettis, really?
Even Penske and Ganassi would struggle in actual F1.

Porsche would be preferred? Obviously.
It is european, it is a manufacturer (and modern F1 gets hard on on manufacturers, unfortunately, although at least Porsche has a pretty proven racing pedigree to be shown, advertising wise), it has shitload of money.
F1 elitism must not be dilueted for that all-american-obsession in motorsport: entertainment.

Not the first time gp247 has built polemics out of nothing around F1.
Still not as bad as The Race or WTF1.

[JoeW]

I am hoping Doohan makes it into F1 so I can root for another Doohan in motorsports :) No idea if he’s a tool or not but I liked his dad.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Domenicali softens on new F1 team or snubbing Andretti? (https://www.grandprix247.com/2022/11/08/domenicali-softens-on-new-f1-team-or-snubbing-andretti/)

I mean, money and solidity-wise, who the fuck are Andrettis, really?
Even Penske and Ganassi would struggle in actual F1.

Porsche would be preferred? Obviously.
It is european, it is a manufacturer (and modern F1 gets hard on on manufacturers, unfortunately, although at least Porsche has a pretty proven racing pedigree to be shown, advertising wise), it has shitload of money.
F1 elitism must not be dilueted for that all-american-obsession in motorsport: entertainment.

Not the first time gp247 has built polemics out of nothing around F1.
Still not as bad as The Race or WTF1.

Other than thru RB, Porsche still cannot find a way in F1?

Yeah, personally I'd rather see a new Porsche team rather than Andretti. F1 doesn't really need 2 teams like Haas. :p

One benefit of having more teams is to have more seats. With so many old geezers sticking around and so many lousy paid drivers, it's really hard for some of the really good young talents to have the opportunity to prove themselves.

So it'd be great to have more than just 10 teams. Naturally Porsche would be better than Andretti. Anyway, it's probably easier to buy an existing team rather than starting from scratch, right?

Mercedes really lucked out to be able to buy Brawn GP. Makes me wonder if Honda didn't pullout, could Honda be the one dominating F1?

[Blerpa]

I'm not against Andrettis (I deeply loathe Michael, but I do have quite a lot of respect for Mario) but I'm always befuddled by people being so irrational (the "journalists" in this article) about what is business, not ideals.
I'd love to have at least another team in F1, but what I want is not what the other teams want, often.

Yes, starting from scratch in F1 is a gargantuan task, no other motorsport series has such sky-high entrance fees (aside from the costs to create a whole team, headquarters and a state of the art wind tunnel).
But it has been set like this since quite some time exactly to discourage amateurs and it was something wanted by the existing teams.

The amount of expertise Haas or Sauber have would make them win multiple championships or at least being in the very top spots in a lower series, but F1 is a different matter.

[Rare White Ape]

I am hoping Doohan makes it into F1 so I can root another Doohan in motorsports :) No idea if he’s a tool or not but I liked his dad.

I liked his cousin, who I went to school with. She was cute. I didn't root her though.

[FaultyMario]

:(

[Crazed_Insanity]

I'm not against Andrettis (I deeply loathe Michael, but I do have quite a lot of respect for Mario) but I'm always befuddled by people being so irrational (the "journalists" in this article) about what is business, not ideals.
I'd love to have at least another team in F1, but what I want is not what the other teams want, often.

Yes, starting from scratch in F1 is a gargantuan task, no other motorsport series has such sky-high entrance fees (aside from the costs to create a whole team, headquarters and a state of the art wind tunnel).
But it has been set like this since quite some time exactly to discourage amateurs and it was something wanted by the existing teams.

The amount of expertise Haas or Sauber have would make them win multiple championships or at least being in the very top spots in a lower series, but F1 is a different matter.

So what are the chances for Porsche entering F1 now?

Only 2 teams left to buy? Haas and Williams? Whatever Porsche wanted to do with RB, they could perhaps do that with Williams? It'd be much harder compared to the RB path, but should still be easier than starting from scratch...

It'd be awesome to see Sauber and Williams rise back up to the top again...

[Blerpa]

I dunno: Audi was bounced by Mclaren because it did not want to be bought and disappear, same for Red Bull.
Sauber has been quite the mercenary since forever, so it will probably disappear when the team will be full on Audi.
Maybe new Williams management are keen to sold out, too.

Haas could probably be a second choice.
Alpha Tauri? RB would have too much to lose if it would sell out the junior team, methinks.

[Crazed_Insanity]

If AT buy out deal is possible, surely it would've been done already? Surely RB would not want to be just a 'customer' of AT? ;)

Williams is probably the most likely team to be bought if Porsche is to buy anything... I like the sound of Williams Porsche! :)

Haas relies heavily on Ferrari, right? Not only do they have Ferrari engines, they pretty much copy the car too, right? Unless Porsche wants to copy some stuffs to learn from before designing their own? Anyway, if Haas really want out, he should have no problems finding a buyer in America! ;)

[FaultyMario]

I dunno: Audi was bounced by Mclaren because it did not want to be bought and disappear, same for Red Bull.
Sauber has been quite the mercenary since forever, so it will probably disappear when the team will be full on Audi.
Maybe new Williams management are keen to sold out, too.

Haas could probably be a second choice.
Alpha Tauri? RB would have too much to lose if it would sell out the junior team, methinks.

Sauber did "survive" the BMW acquisition.
Alpha Tauri might be an option now that the whole RB Sports division is under new management.

In an ideal world, Porsche would do well to bankroll someone like Penske to do the work, and PROFIT! in case it worked.

Isn't that what Mercedes did with Brawn (and to a certain extent, what RB did with the Milton Keynes team)?

[Crazed_Insanity]

Penske? Penske is in F1?

[Rare White Ape]

I never thought Sauber was ever bought by anyone. Partnerships yes, but no change of ownership, at least controlling.

Setting up Penske would be a massive investment too. They are in a similar position to HAAS but I sincerely doubt that Roger would like his name on a car where the chances of winning are very slim. If there was a grid slot available Porsche would be better off starting fresh or directing some of its WEC assets across.

And you mention Williams, which leads to an interesting question: if Porsche and Audi were serious about entering F1 why didn’t either of them look at that avenue before it was sold off? We’re they caught sleeping? Was it too expensive? Some other reason?

[Blerpa]

Penske has been in F1. When it was too cheap to enter.
Sauber bought back its team from BMW.

Porsche and Audi were also juggling with GT, Extreme E and LMH/LMDh projects: the prototype one was put on the shelves by Audi in order to get to F1. In order to do that Audi is also seemingly leaving behind big developments on the GT front, which is the reason that WRT, the best Audi team in GT in the latest years, has jumped ship to BMW: that would guarantee WRT access to both the BMW M4 GT3 and the bavarian new LMH squad.

Porsche is Porsche and as usual is doing ciclically anything.
Audi is concentrating on F1 only, which could bite them mightly in the arse.

Haas is not *that* Ferrari involved.
It is nowhere near to an Alpha Tauri situation.

Also, things are fluid, Haas could jump ship, it is not like they benefit that much from their connection with Ferrari, not much more than Mclaren or Aston Martin do with Mercedes.

EDIT:

"Having not won a Grand Prix as an independent, the team was sold to BMW in 2005 and competed as BMW Sauber from 2006 to 2009, finishing third in 2007 and second in 2008 in the Constructors' Championship, and scoring their lone grand prix victory at the 2008 Canadian Grand Prix. At the end of a less successful 2009 season, BMW pulled out of Formula One and the team's future remained uncertain for several months until it was sold back to Peter Sauber and granted a 2010 entry. Due to issues with the Concorde Agreement, the team remained as "BMW Sauber" for the 2010 season.[1][2] In March 2010, Peter Sauber announced plans to change the team name during the season but the FIA announced that they would have to wait until the end of the season to change their name.[3] At the beginning of the 2011 season, the team dropped BMW from their name. "

From Sauber Motorsport wikipedia page.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Hopefully the new SAudi team will be more successful this time around... ;)

If Haas really isn't all that Ferrari connected, maybe it'll be a better option to buy than Williams. I always thought Haas has been a pretty lousy carbon copy of Ferrari because they sure look very much alike! Anyway, for sure Roger Penske would not want to have a car with his name with that kind of finishing positions. If he really want to be in F1 that badly, he would've been in it long ago. Why now? Andretti is the one with crazy ambition. Michael probably just has a chip on his shoulder as a failed driver... and now trying to prove something as an owner? However, I think he probably had better chance to be successful as a driver if he would be more committed and move to Europe back then. How committed will he be as a team owner?

He can't possibly do better than Toyota and BMW and modern day Honda, right? Or maybe Andretti just wants to return to Europe and become the new Minardi? ;) I wouldn't mind that. I really hate seeing Williams as the new Minardi running around in the back like that... so I guess I'm still secretly hoping Porsche will help restore Williams to its former glory. :)

[FaultyMario]

Let's go Haas!!!

[JoeW]

KMAG! So classy the entire crowd cheering for him.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Didn’t realize qualifying is today… good for Kevin! It’s amazing Haas book ends the entire field by qualifying 1st and last! :D

[Blerpa]

That was fun.
Also to people dismissing it: Magnussen just went out there and did a fast lap like everyone else, and it happened that at that point he had the fastest lap.
Lucky? Possibly but he still lapped fastest than anyone else at that point, so the pole is deserved.
About Leclerc and Ferrari: team is ran by clowns but Leclerc once again shows he has no balls and lacks leader skills to react quickly and strongly to a doubtful team call, opposite to Russell, Hamilton, Sainz and others.

Btw, F1 is years late on deleting previous laptime of drivers who cause a red flag, like in Indycar.

[Tom Servo]

That sounds like the same kind of people who dismissed Danica Patrick's win as just something about fuel management.

The person at the top completed the circuit or required number of laps around the circuit in the fastest time, full stop. All credit to Magnussen, even in a mixed-conditions qualifying I don't think anyone would have predicted that. Good for him.

[Rare White Ape]

He celebrated as if he won the race :D

Happy to see it. From Mazepin to KMag. What a contrast!

[FaultyMario]

It sucks that it's not pole for the GP.

But like Steiner said, they're fast this weekend so hopefully they can haul some good points and keep their 8th place ahead of AT.

[JoeW]

He's just got to stay elbows out for two races basically. Hopefully he can hang on to mid pack in the sprint so he can have a decent start on Sunday.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Kevin is definitely making Mick looking really bad... :p

I'm hoping Kevin can finish the sprint still near the top... fingers crossed!

BTW, I do agree the person who caused a solo red flag, or maybe even yellow flag, really needs to have his best lap deleted. It's just too difficult to determine whether if it's really an accident or done intentionally. Even if it's an honest mistake, if it prevented others the chance to beat your time, it's only fair that your best time is also deleted just so you won't gain that advantage.

[JoeW]

Can we please ban Stroll? What a fucker. Ran Vettel off and tried to run Schumacher off later.

And can we get any shittier coverage of the meaningful action on track?

Also can we stop calling passes made on the front straight under DRS a “good move”?

[FaultyMario]

Did Alonso lose his FW trying to give Ocon a puncture after their L1 contact?

I mean, Ocon did not leave a 1-car width, but like with Sainz/Russell in Austin, Alonso shouldn't expect normalcy on Lap 1 situations.

[FaultyMario]

And can we get any shittier coverage of the meaningful action on track?

TV coverage was utter shit.

Stroll's driving was too. He deserved a suspended race ban for where he did what he did to Vettel. Track marshals are their colleagues, and drivers need to treat them with respect.

[JoeW]

Can you imagine coming out of the pit lane into that shit show? It would have been a disaster.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Why did he need to treat his retiring teammate that way? What a dangerous move…

Anyway, looks like Mercedes is back?

Will Max be able to break thru the Mercedes’ front row tomorrow?

[Blerpa]

Agreed on all the matters.

Stroll is behave like a total lunatic on track.
I loved the "Ok" radioed by Vettel.
Alonso was mightly at fault: methinks those two cannot wait to be in different teams to shunt each other out.
Also TV coverage was erratic and bad.

I laughed hard when Perez asked the team if they were going to switch positions with Verstappen.
Dude, you drive for Red Bull: not even Colin Chapman would not give such a giant fuck about the second driver as the team you drive for.
You should have known.

[JoeW]

What I found really unfortunate was during qualifying yesterday when LeClerc came out on IM tires. Perez got trapped behind him and I think everyone assumed LeClerc was going to go into the pits for Softs after the sighting lap. But he stayed out and totally fucked Perez' only chance for a good lap before the rain started. I'm sure Perez was mightily frustrated.

[JoeW]

All that and I still found it fairly boring.

Cars look a lot better without wheel covers btw.

[Rare White Ape]

I watched the highlights on YouTube. All I saw was lots of clumsy driving from the world’s best. More than half of those collisions could have been avoided if the car behind just closed the throttle a tiny bit.

I don’t know why Verstappen got penalised for that collision though. I felt like Hamilton squeezed him onto the kerb.

[JoeW]

Yeah it was kinda meh. Really was hoping for some rain.

LeClerc begging for Sainz to give him a podium for extra points...ummm no.
Alpine begging Ocon NOT to fight Alonso as he goes by on fresh tires.
Max outright refusing to give Perez the position that would give Perez 2nd place outright with one race left.
And Mercedes...for a fucking change says "You are free to race".

It was like the fucking twilight zone out there.

[FaultyMario]

vers got penalized for sticking up his nose up the inside of a car that had a front axle of advantage.

simple as that

[Crazed_Insanity]

Yeah, there were just way too many incidents from worlds best drivers for some reason… the one I disliked the most was the one Ricciardo fucked Kevin’s car and then instant karma…

Also, Max has already won the championship… why the fuck does the #2 driver still have to drive with team order? Anyway, I suppose Perez could be like Russell and run so far ahead so that it’d be difficult to yield to the team leader.

Anyway, just glad Mercedes’ is seemingly back? However, maybe it’s just this track or perhaps Max was just not racing at 100%?

[Alan P]

I suspect Checo won't be quite so willing to help Max next season when max pulls shit like this. it could be said that Checo has interrupted or stalled many other drivers allowing Max to win, especially in Abu Dhabi last season when he stalled Hamilton so much he didn't have a clear pit window so couldn't give up track position whereas Max did Pit and ultimate won because of it. To Max it was nothing, a few extra points. To Checo it may end up being the difference between second in the WDC or third.

Max was apparently asked FOUR TIMES on the final lap to slow and let Checo past and ignored each request. He's always been a twat, but I hope many of his fans now see him for what he really is. Selfish, entitled and not a team player.

[JoeW]

vers got penalized for sticking up his nose up the inside of a car that had a front axle of advantage.

simple as that

Well it’s not quite THAT simple or the ex F1 drivers announcing the race wouldn’t have disagreed so vehemently with the ruling.

Ric running KMag off on the first lap was worse than a rookie move. It was just dumb.

The Lando/LeClerc incident was stupid.

Just some dumb shit going on there. Lots of double move weaving to block.

[Blerpa]

Max said he will not help ever Perez and the team knows why.
Journos speculate it is because Max thinks Perez stuffed it on purpose at Monaco's quali and so, like a 13th year old, he is retaliating.
"He showed who he really is". Yeah, Checo, glad you got up to date with all of us, eventually.

Still, seems Horner this time around chastized the woman beater' son during post race briefing, so Max sheepishly replied to post race interviews saying that IF Checo would need points to get to second place in Abu Dhabi he would eventually help.


vers got penalized for sticking up his nose up the inside of a car that had a front axle of advantage.

simple as that

Exactly.
Right of entry and of trajectory.

Incredible people think Verstappen was in the right.
I hope to never encounter any of you on a online race, dear lord.
Speaks volumes about how ex F1 drivers are gladly ex, then.

[FaultyMario]

Well it’s not quite THAT simple or the ex F1 drivers announcing the race wouldn’t have disagreed so vehemently with the ruling.

It is. For the race stewards, at least. Watched the F1TV feed with Buxton, Palmer and Collins, they all agreed it was never LH's fault, a racing incident if you were feeling generous.

For me, the dumbest move of the race was AM's strategy for Seb. They did him hard.

[FaultyMario]

I would not call this:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FheI_wSXgAENlc5.jpg

A "gap which exists", I'm more inclined to call it an opportunity to "live and fight another day".

[JoeW]

I never said it was Hamilton’s fault. I just don’t think it was an obvious penalty. Obviously a screenshot doesn’t tell the story. But I get you. It COULD have been avoided.

It’s funny that you say ex F1 drivers’ opinions are to be ignored. I’d put the most stock in someone’s opinion who actually drove at the highest level in the world, wheel to wheel with the other best drivers…over the opinion of some fun day track driver or online E racer in his living room.

It is interesting how polarizing some of these calls are. Obviously we all have plenty of experience in how cars work on the road and on track. Yet we can see things so differently when it comes to things like this.

And yes I think Max will get a real life wake up call regarding this particular situation with Perez. I mean the entire world will be like wtf? WDC in the bag. Not fighting for a win. The dude has literally helped you win in some situations. I believe tomorrow he’ll wake to alot of his friends saying dude that was fucked up. You need to apologize.

If he doesn’t do damage control on this ASAP then if Perez is there next year then we will see some toxic shit happening during races.

[Rare White Ape]

I merely think that Hamilton should have given him more room, because I come from a world where the b-pillar rule was a thing and the front wheels of the #1 car were definitely halfway up the side of Hamilton's car.

And Blerpa you'd want to hope we meet in a sim race because I wouldn't simply shut the door like that.

I never said Verstappen was in the right. Verstappen is one of the drivers from this race who I said could have let off the pedal a little bit and avoided the collision. It's not black-and-white.

[FaultyMario]

and guys, thanks for picking up on me shitting on My Crack!!

[FaultyMario]

Also, was it me, or are drivers phoning it in?

The teams look exhausted.

[JoeW]

And they are adding more races…fuckin A

[Crazed_Insanity]

Why are we killing each other arguing over those amateurish moves?

It’s great George won, wish Kevin could finish 2nd. ;)

Max after clinching the championship unwilling to return some favors to his teammate was pretty lame.

[Blerpa]

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/why-verstappen-was-penalised-for-clashing-with-hamilton-in-brazilian-gp/10399770/

"According to the guidelines, in order for a driver overtaking on the inside to be given sufficient room, it had to have a "significant portion" of the car alongside. The overtaking manoeuvre must be done in a safe and controlled manner.
What is defined as a "significant portion" is at the stewards' discretion, but a main consideration has to be if the overtaking car's front tyres are alongside the other car by no later than the apex of the corner.

Although Verstappen's front wheels were alongside Hamilton's car - in line with his sidepod - as they neared the apex, the stewards did not feel there was complete control, claiming his overtake at Turn 1 had not been completed.
"Verstappen attempted to pass Hamilton on the outside of Turn 1 by braking very late," read the stewards' report. "He did not complete the pass in Turn 1 and his excess speed compromised his entry into Turn 2, at which point he made contact with Hamilton."

So while Verstappen may have technically had a significant portion of his car alongside Hamilton's, the speed he was carrying meant it could not be done in a safe and controlled manner."

I see it in simpler way: who has the front of the car, if not even the front wheels, is ahead and should stay ahead, especially if it is already engaging the corner.
If I'm online racing and I'm trying to pass a car and it is already starting to turn and its ahead, unless I cock it up (but that's my mistake) I brake and/or lift.
That is not my corner, simple as that.

But when you stop going for a gap yadda yadda Senna yadda yadda...? If the other car turns and is ahead by front and/or front wheels there's NO gap.
Unless it is Wreckfest or touring car crap, but I do not rank those two among proper motorsport.

Good on George, he "kinda" deserved it... after gaining positions inducing a red flag which influenced both sprint and main race starting grids. Meh.

----------------------


https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/tsunoda-highlights-bizarre-f1-safety-car-system-anomaly-in-brazil-gp/10399799/

This is another thing they will have to sort out.
As well as the clownery that is cars being faster in pitlane during safety or, worse, during virtual safety car (which is the most asinine thing ever after sprint races).

VSC? No delta crap: just a main switch controlled by race direction (with Radioed instructions from the FIA race control like they do in WEC when they broadcast "Full Course Yellow in 20 seconds. 19, 18, 15, 14 [...] NOW")
The difference? Every car is switched to a set draconian speed by the central button pushed by the race control.
120 kmh? 80 kmh? Whatever they choose.
And pitlane speed? Immediately set by that control to be HALF the virtual controlled speed.

You do have the tecnology or the money to develop it, bloody use it.
Tyres become too cold at those low speeds? CRY ME A FUCKING RIVER, PETER GASLY, do your job.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Hamilton and Max have had a history so I think it's kinda 'natural' for them to eventually hit each other? ;) Whenever you have rules that's up to the discretion of the race control, naturally there'll be controversies. This racing incident was bound to happen between those 2. During this season, it's probably Hamilton who has something to prove. The 'champion' really doesn't have anything to lose except his face. At least Max didn't pay back by knocking Lewis off road into the wall like what happened at UK last year.

Anyway, my interest is less in those 2 at the moment. My question is why were there so many other 'knock out' contacts? Are the cars particularly hard to drive on Sao Paulo? Or perhaps visibility issues? I also remember Hamilton knocking out Albon here, right? For some reason, F1 drivers look particularly amateurish on this track for some reason. I wish I know why. I hope this isn't a new passing strategy that they've all picked up on? Most likely I think these ground effect cars don't like this track for some reason.

[FaultyMario]

I see it in simpler way: who has the front of the car, if not even the front wheels, is ahead and should stay ahead, especially if it is already engaging the corner.
If I'm online racing and I'm trying to pass a car and it is already starting to turn and its ahead, unless I cock it up (but that's my mistake) I brake and/or lift.
That is not my corner, simple as that.

Good Old Doug saw it similarly:


Passing on the outside and getting squeezed on the switch-back is absolutely a Play Stupid Games, Win Stupid Prizes deal. Always has been in racing.

[FaultyMario]

CRY ME A FUCKING RIVER, PETER GASLY, do your job.


The Pedro Gaseoso situation was different, I think he was trying to get himself banned out of Abu Dhabi, to get that out of the way before his move to Renault.

[JoeW]

Good Old Doug saw it similarly:

I don't think there is any question what the smart thing is to do, especially online where the stakes are nil. But when you have two multi-millionaires battling for money, prestige, the pride of the hundreds of employees of the team, the rabid fans, your own ego, youthful rage etc etc...intelligent moves are rarely made in the heat of battle.

[CudaMan]

It looked like Max sent it so fast into turn 2 from so far to the right that he wouldn't have made the corner even if Hamilton never turned in. Hamilton didn't give Max much room at all, for sure, but Max was extremely optimistic there (or just trying to establish dominance over Lewis again now that he can afford to crash out). I could see it maybe being called a Racing Incident as it was, given Lewis' turn in, but I guarantee if Lewis had given more space there still would have been contact.

Crazy race weekend. Interlagos is so good.

Feel bad for KMag and Seb. Seb drove his balls off and got screwed in the end.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Yeah, I also really wanted Kevin and even Ricciardo to do well, but too bad about them playing bumper cars…

[Blerpa]

Unconfirmed news of Binotto out, Vasseur in at Scuderia Ferrari F1.
Ferrari denies and declares that those are baseless news.
I hope for them... choosing Vasseur would underline their on going ineptitude in choosing proper and capable employees, aside from the two drivers.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Ferrari has traditionally been stepping on its own toes in the past, it's not a trend that started with Binotto, right? Are you sure Vasseur will finally turn things around? :p

Anyway, reading into more of that story between Max and Checco... boy, Max could really hold a grudge? Even if Checco deliberated crashed at Monaco(all the more reason for deletion of fast lap if you cause a red flag during quali), dude, you've dominated this season and won the championship already!

I think Senna would probably only hold grudges at his fiercest rivals and had no problem giving wins away to teammates when championship is over... Also consider how many times Checco has bent over backwards to help Max gain more points... That was really lame. No question about Max's driving ability, but as a human being he kinda suck. Hopefully in RL he's not like that.

Anyway, I tend to like to root for underdog, I think my new driver to root for is George. I'm particularly impressed by George hopping off of his car to check up on Zhou after his crazy crash. I don't recall that many drivers who'd do that, Senna has done that..., but anyway, I think that reflects what kind of human being they really are. Anxious to find out if George will be the next Bottas? Or the next Rosberg? Or the next Hamilton? ;)

[Blerpa]

I find Vasseur a mediocre team principal, I thought that was clear.

Also Senna was friend with Prost till his untimely death even after all what happened between them during races, so no, I would not mix Senna with Verstappen.
Verstappen's family, his mother precisely, has also told dutch press that Perez celebrated the pole and betrayed his wife with some other woman. Really? LAME.

[FaultyMario]

The Verstappen entourage is a gossip mine. They've thrown caca on George, Gasly's partner and on a bunch of other people.

Speaking of entourage... seems to me that Kimi was well liked by the Agnellis, and i wouldn't put it past John Elkham to be friends with him and maybe have him in some sort of advisory role. Kimi did enjoy his time at Sauber and would not have expressed a bad opinion of Fred if prompted.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Oh Senna was very ruthless with Prost on track. I think they only became friends later after Prost retired? Or did Prost Specifically asked Frank Williams to not hire his 'friend' as teammate while he was at the team? ;) Anyway, for sure the 2 held very high mutual respect I think.

Point is, when it's so obvious who's #1 and who's #2, why would you hold a grudge for so long against your #2 teammate like that? If anything, this is probably very bad for Max's own health. If he keeps this attitude up, surely he won't be able to do this longterm like Hamilton and Schumacher...

As for Ferrari, I don't really understand what's going on inside, but just glad they continue to make beautiful fast cars on road and on track! :)

[FaultyMario]

I think Blerps explained some of the (crappy) corporate culture there a few pages ago.

[Crazed_Insanity]

If it's corporate culture, then it probably won't make any difference who's running the team! :p

Ross Brawn and Michael Schumacher injected new blood into Ferrari which made it a huge success. Without them, Ferrari seems to have fallen back to their default mode. At least Ferrari has never fallen to the back of the pack like Williams and McLaren for a while..., but for them to win championships, they may need another star manager from the outside? They have the drivers... and designed a great car... just need to be better organized, right?

[samoht]

Out with the new, in with the old at Haas, as Schumacher makes way for Hulkenberg https://the-race.com/formula-1/schumacher-dropped-by-haas-hulkenberg-makes-f1-return/

[Blerpa]

F1 2023 grid:

Red Bull: Verstappen / Perez

Ferrari: Leclerc / Sainz

Mercedes: Hamilton / Russell

Mclaren: Norris / Piastri

Alpine: Ocon / Gasly

Sauber: Bottas / Zhou

Alpha Tauri: Tsunoda / De Vries

Aston Martin: Alonso / Stroll

Haas: Magnussen / Hulkenberg

Williams: Albon / Sargeant


Mick Schumacher is eyeing a third driver seat in either Mercedes or Red Bull, it is all linked to what Ricciardo would choose and leave for the german.

[Crazed_Insanity]

What a reversal of fortune for Kevin, but it turned out to be a huge misfortune for Mick. Oh well, this is what racing is all about.

Excited to see an American back on the grid, but isn't Williams being kinda optimistic given that Sargenat doesn't have enough points for his super license? I suppose if he failed to collect enough points, Mick or Ricciardo will probably fill in. (If Ricciardo failed to do better than Albon, then he could retire for sure. :p )

[Blerpa]

What a reversal of fortune for Kevin, but it turned out to be a huge misfortune for Mick. Oh well, this is what racing is all about.

Excited to see an American back on the grid, but isn't Williams being kinda optimistic given that Sargenat doesn't have enough points for his super license? I suppose if he failed to collect enough points, Mick or Ricciardo will probably fill in. (If Ricciardo failed to do better than Albon, then he could retire for sure. :p )

Mick is possibly listed on that Williams seat in the case Sargeant will fail to score enough points.

[FaultyMario]

Mick needs to be more adaptable, I hope he gets a simulator job.

[FaultyMario]

Mick Schumacher is eyeing a third driver seat in either Mercedes or Red Bull, it is all linked to what Ricciardo would choose and leave for the german.

Ric is 93.7% an ambassador for RB as of now.

[Crazed_Insanity]

While I’m kinda sad to see Mick dropped, but I think it’s fair to say that Mick failed to shine as brightly as his old man, right?

Maybe he’s just unlucky to have a strong teammate so early on like Kevin? Or not as lucky enough to find his own ‘Ross Brawn’?

[FaultyMario]

Ric is 93.7% an ambassador for RB as of now.

Marko has just confirmed Ric's position. I guess that lowers his chances down to 82.4%.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I thought he kinda burnt his bridge leaving RB, I guess they've mended their differences?

Anyway, supposedly Lawson is the official reserve driver. He'd likely be substituting for Max or Checco in case anything happens not Ricciardo, right? But then again I'm sure RB can do whatever they want...

I kinda wish he'd be at Mercedes as a 3rd driver eventually taking Hamilton's spot..., but I suppose it'd also be nice to see him back to possibly finish the unfinished business of kicking Max's ass? RB might be doing this just to show Max that they are Team RB not Team Max!

[Yobbo NZ]

Marko confirmed that Liam is going to the Japanese Super Formula next year and is still reserve driver for Red Bull and Alpha Tauri.

[JoeW]

Lawson was flying in FP1. Only a couple tenths of Perez. That’s brilliant.

They were giving the new drivers a little TV time and showed their previous accomplishments. The one who stood out was Fittipaldi. Literally shit results over the last several years. Not sure why he’s in the car.

I’m ready to root for Doohan and Lawson right out of the gate. Both are names I have rooted for for years in MotoGP :) Lawson of course no relation to Eddie but it matters not :)

[Tom Servo]

Lawson of course no relation to Eddie but it matters not :)

Hell, I was a huge Nelson Piquet fan as a kid because his first name sounds kinda like my last name. No judgment here.

[Blerpa]

I thought he kinda burnt his bridge leaving RB, I guess they've mended their differences?

More often than not in F1 money and opportunity talk.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Mercedes failed to qualify even the 2nd row? I guess Brazil was just very suited for their cars?

[Rare White Ape]

Apparently there will be 6 sprint races next year, and they will be:

Baku
Austria
Spa
Qatar
COTA
Brazil

[FaultyMario]

Qatar?, wasn't losail a pretty decent circuit?

anyway, Baku and Spa are not good venues for sprint-ing, imho.

[Rare White Ape]

Qatar?, wasn't losail a pretty decent circuit?

The place where I cut-and-pasted this from could have meant to type Bahrain. It might be third-hand info from Twitter. I could not find a news source to verify it.

[Blerpa]

Baku, Spielberg, Spa, Austin, Interlagos are certain F1 2023 sprint races.
The sixth one has not be officialized yet but it should be at Qatar that will be back in the F1 calendar next season.

Still against any sprint races at all.
They bastardize the weekend format of F1 and "normalize" the elitist mood of the series.

Sargeant won Rookie of the Year in F2 and has gained enough points to his superlicense to be enlisted on F1 grid thus he will be Williams F1 second driver in 2023.
So Mick Schumacher is either out of F1 or reserve at Mercedes.

Also Ricciardo declared he was close earlier to a deal for a seat alongside Magnussen in Haas but it was him that decided against it.
He has decided on his own to take a sabbatical year deeming he will need it to start afresh in the future, whatever the future team he will race with would be.
So the Red Bull reserve driver deal would work wonders for him: he is in a top team, he knows basically everyone and the team values (or lack of!) and in case of troubles with either Verstappen or Perez he can easily step up inside the cockpit.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Ricciardo is a likable guy but I question his judgment sometimes… if I were him, I would’ve stuck with RB and prove them wrong about Max… or if I had chosen to leave the stupid team for a good reason, I’d never return again!

He should’ve tried out Haas. Maybe the Ferrari styled cars will suit his driving style… and perhaps he could soon have a shot at a Ferrari seat.

Anyway, the final race seems to have some cool moments, but I feel bad for Mercedes, they seemed to all of a sudden became the new Ferrari?!? ;) I was really hoping Mercedes has gotten its former self back, but not this weekend.

[JoeW]

What an amazing reliability record for Mercedes over the last decade and more. We rarely talk about them breaking down and with only one mechanical DNF this year across both cars it really speaks volumes about the quality of their work. I expect them to be on top again next year by a good margin.

[FaultyMario]

2022 was a meh season.

I do not think the ground effects cars really lived up to their promise.

The midfield battle was shit, mainly because Ricciardo's driving and the Renault and Scuderia Stroll strategies were shit. AT was completely de-funded, I do not want to speculate about where their money went, but it sure as hell didn't go to their cars.

[FaultyMario]

On the sprint thing, my best offer is to just make it a third championship (WDC, WCC, WSC) and be done with it. They could even open it up to third drivers, and have it give SL points.

[Crazed_Insanity]

2022 was a meh season.

I do not think the ground effects cars really lived up to their promise.


Totally agree with that. Not sure how that improved anything and it introduced new bouncing problems…

I suppose the only main benefit I see is that cars look better than before… well, other than the Mercedes. Hope those ugly cars can do better next year.

[Blerpa]

Test Abu Dhabi - Lline-up

Red Bull: TBC and Liam Lawson
Ferrari: Charles Leclerc/Carlos Sainz and Robert Shwartzman
Mercedes: TBC and Frederik Vesti
Alpine: Pierre Gasly and Jack Doohan
McLaren: Lando Norris and Oscar Piastri
Alfa Romeo: Valtteri Bottas and Theo Pourchaire
Aston Martin: Fernando Alonso/Lance Stroll and Felipe Drugovich
Haas: Nico Hulkenberg and Pietro Fittipaldi
AlphaTauri: Yuki Tsunoda and Nyck de Vries
Williams: Alex Albon and Logan Sargeant

[XHawkeye]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fh6sYisWIAEHsfH.jpg

[XHawkeye]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FiAQ-dDXoAYOytw.jpg

[Crazed_Insanity]

Wow! Didn’t realize Yuki is that short! Hopefully that can give him a bit of lower CG advantage. ;)

[Blerpa]

Chinese Grand Prix to be cancelled in 2023 (https://www.grandprix247.com/2022/11/22/chinese-grand-prix-to-be-cancelled-in-2023/)

[Crazed_Insanity]

I guess that's unsurprising?

[Blerpa]

Binotto is going to resign at Ferrari.
It is going to be official in few hours.

Dear lord, I truly hope Vasseur is not going to replace him.

EDIT: Domenicali, Arrivabene, Mattiacci, Binotto.
Ferrari should really look at itself at the mirror and deeply rethink how higher management is working at the reins of the whole company, me thinks.
Look at Mercedes and Red Bull: plenty of indipendence, less internal political games as possible and the very same stable pool of important and certain team figures cementing a crew's run to victory.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Ferrari is not doing too poorly, but obviously something went wrong which resulted in another missed opportunity.

You really should apply for the job. ;)

[Blerpa]

Latest news: so far there is not going back for the team principal and Maranello, but the silence is seemingly dictated by severance talks and so on.
Enrico Cardile is the head coordinator for the development of the 675, next season car, but Binotto never abandoned his technical chief duties, along with the team principal role, so there's a bit of a problem there.
Rumours say Simone Resta could get back to Ferrari from Haas to replace Binotto in the technical squad.
Coletta is a no go as he is full on working on the hypercar project.

More gossip? Both John Elkann and Benedetto Vigna, Ferrari CEO, are displeased with the season's outcome and the latter has been quite vocal in some interviews about it, talking of second place as first of the losers and so on.
But... again more gossip? It seems, as usual with Ferrari, that there are two fronts inside the team.
One is formed by the spanish sponsors around Carlos Sainz, directly chosen by Binotto back then, and the other is the infamous Nicolas Todt management that revolves around Leclerc - which is the part pushing more for a Binotto Out.

[FaultyMario]

Spanish politickering in Ferrari?, what is this, 2012?

[XHawkeye]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FiaH94EXEAAZZbB.jpg

[Crazed_Insanity]

:lol:

[FaultyMario]

I'm sure it's all bollocks, but F1 twitter is saying that Ferrari wants Ross Brawn, and that Vasseur was rejected because he wanted to have #1 and #2 roles for the drivers defined on their contracts.

I mean, I know that it's not a very popular subject, but having open competition between the drivers almost never works.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I suppose that worked well for Ferrari in the past, but I personally would let the drivers figure out for themselves who’s #2 on track. Signing on the dotted line sealing your fate as a permanent #2 can’t possibly be too good for a racer’s psychological well being.

When 2 really good racers end up fighting for #1 status, that’s when the show can be awesome for the fans. Of course usually this can’t last and one driver will leave the team…

So even without contract, teams will naturally surround itself to the #1 driver… specifically building a team around one driver in advance may not always work well like with Michael. Don’t forget BAR was building itself around JV and that went nowhere… Also, Brawn and Michael had previous working relationship already. The team simply changed name from Benetton to Ferrari. Seeing how Ricciardo fell from grace seemingly from top of his game has demonstrated F1 is really a 'team' sport. Without a team/car's support, not even Senna can win anything.

So just let them race. May the better driver rise to the top and the slower driver be washed out.

Again, the Ricciardo story has probably revealed that many talented rookies might have been washed out early on when signed with the wrong teams early on in their careers... even when you're severely beaten by your teammate doesn't always prove that you're not talented. That car just might not suit you very well. However, if you can't adapt as well as Lando, that is your own problem. :p

[Blerpa]

The F2 Report: Top five drivers of 2022 (https://www.grandprix247.com/2022/11/28/the-f2-report-top-five-drivers-of-2022/)

Let's change the discourse a bit, since Binotto's affaire is yet to be resolved.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I don't really pay that much attention to F2, but seeing that there 29 of them... and there are only 20 F1 seats, occupied by lots of older folks who refuse to retire...

Lots of these young drivers will have no place to go, huh?

F1 really need more teams. Or perhaps let each team run 3 cars? ;)

[Blerpa]

They can keep racing in F2.
Only who wins the championship is barred to race there after.

And actually fuck that reasoning: F1 drivers have gotten too young, the system should take a step back and it seems they are tuning to slow down things a bit.