2023 Formula One World Championship

[CudaMan]

I can't honestly tell if LeClerc made a genuine mistake. I'd have to see the onboard. From the replays it just looked like he was flying and the car bottomed out when it took a bad bounce over that curb. Nothing he could do once that happened with that much lateral load going through the car. Looks to be a relatively flat curb where drivers can push track limits but it bit him this time.

[Rare White Ape]

I'd have to see the onboard.

Said onboard:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kK0fW4U24NY&ab_channel=FormulaDynasty

Bad bump. Hard luck. Racers push it all the time. LeClerc did it and the world champion did it.

[JoeW]

But he crashed it twice. That’s what all these practice laps are for. And the difference between crashing it and saving it can be that one iota extra of talent, reaction speed, judgment or some other intangible that Charles tends not to have on days where he throws it away.

He knows not to go completely over these curbs like that.

[CudaMan]

He's had overzealous or misjudged moments for sure, probably more than he should have. But this one in qualifying I give him a pass.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I think the guy clearly has the talent. Can’t say that he’s not talented!

However, can he learn from his mistakes though? If he crashes the same way at the same corner twice, kinda hard to give him a pass on that…

Unless car suffers a failure, it’s kinda hard not to blame a solo crash on the driver right?

Maybe he won’t make the same mistake 3 times and totally shines on Sunday? Then I’ll give him a pass! :p

[FaultyMario]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FvjFSjrXgAEHoyr.jpg

[FaultyMario]

Magnussen's fall down the order in the race will be painful to watch. Good on him for bagging that result in Qualy!

Not that bad at a quarter of distance, TBF.

[FaultyMario]

I had a feeling that RB had favored Verstappen with the tire strategy, that BS call from Horner to Sky Sports towards the end of the race cleared me of any doubts.

[JoeW]

Well he is quite a bit faster. Generally I would favor my faster driver.

And to prove some of these are so superhuman that they are on autopilot…Alonso watching Lances move on the big screen while in 3rd place…and then commenting on it just clinched it.

Mercedes making progress now.

Pretty decent racing considering they shortened the DRS zones.

[Alan P]

With the English Soccer ball finishing in the next few weeks usually I'd let the F1 carry me through the barren months.

But, this season I'm struggling to muster any excitement at all after only three races. Even screwing up qualifying and starting halfway down the grid didn't stop Max and his Red Bull. Hell, even his own team mate couldn't stop him. Sure, I don't like the guy, but I can see how good he is as a driver, even if his car is an absolute rocket ship in a field of still very fast cars.

It feels like the FIA took far too long, and shouldn't have negotiated with Red Bull at all when they got caught exceeding the Budget cap and any meaningful punishment Red bull could have received is now, clearly and demonstrably, not worth the paper it was written on. Their car is so fast I wouldn't be surprised if they as good as have both titles wrapped up by the Summer break and they stop bringing updates and start working on next years car. Even though they have much more limited CPU, CFD and Wind Tunnel time it still feels like that because their current car is so good having circa 30% less time to spend on their car won't matter because it'll be another evolution rather than revolution and it'll be just as fast. Which again makes mockery of their cheating and punishment.

[JoeW]

Honestly I would assume all the big teams are cheating the budget cap. How can the FIA police accounting? All teams have to do is say an expenditure is for this and not that. It’s not like there is an FIA representative following each part purchase, every minute spent doing sim work, etc etc. I can’t even begin to fathom the accounting complexity of a F1 team and all the places they can hide money.

It’s crazy the razor thin margins we are talking about from a “dominant” team to a 2nd place team. I mean Qualifying is still down to a tenth or two of a second. Essentially the snap of a finger. And you’ve gone from “great race guys” to “jeez guys, we’ve got a lot of work to do”. It’s insane.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Ferrari seems to have qualifying pace. String a good lap together, they won pole fair and square over RB!

However, it’s during the race that RBs run away! I think it’s mainly due to the super duper Newey DRS!

Look at how RB and Ferrari pass MAG’a Haas!

What’s the point of DRS now? Leclerc was still having a hard time passing. The only thing DRS is doing now is simply allowing RBs to blow by others like driving in a video game easy mode…

[Rare White Ape]

There’s some news going around that Brad Pitt will be driving an F1 car at various F1 rounds this year while making a film.

It’s not 100% true. He will be driving a car fitted with small cinema cameras, but more likely to be a modified F2 or F3 car with - potentially - real F1 cars being driven in the background. These are likely to be sessions scheduled to fit in-between the usual race activities. And don’t expect high speeds.

More info here: https://www.polygon.com/23712244/brad-pitt-f1-movie-driving-race-weekends?fbclid=IwAR0GFWfqvRcqzW24v1YoUUvFCC592or8 4tF6VQTbORMi1M1MBZKUb7TLwrw

[JoeW]

They use DRS in qualifying as well. I think tire wear is where the separation happens.

[FaultyMario]

It feels like the FIA took far too long, and shouldn't have negotiated with Red Bull at all when they got caught exceeding the Budget cap and any meaningful punishment Red bull could have received is now, clearly and demonstrably, not worth the paper it was written on. Their car is so fast I wouldn't be surprised if they as good as have both titles wrapped up by the Summer break and they stop bringing updates and start working on next years car.

Horner is a great politician. I wouldn't put it past him to lead the conservative party some time before his life ends.

[Crazed_Insanity]

They use DRS in qualifying as well. I think tire wear is where the separation happens.

Yeah, usually when race pace drops, it's due to tire degradation.

However, I just don't understand how Max was able to pass cars so easily on straights, yet Leclerc was having so much trouble with Haas?!?!?!

How can the 2 cars be so close during qualifying, yet so far apart during the race. Without data, I'm guess RBs DRS just works better with traffic? Qualifying laps are done usually without traffic?

Anyway, whatever the reasons, at the moment, Ferrari has a difficult time passing Haas, so there's probably zero hope of it passing RBs. Now, even if Ferraris qualified in front of RBs, RB's superior passing ability will be able to quickly pass them during the race.

Hope Ferrari can unlock more race pace soon... and hope Mercedes can remove the nastiness out of their cars soon.

RBs are still awe inspiring to watch. That Adrian Newey is really something.

[FaultyMario]

A lot of the in-race deg had to do with the overnight rain washout leaving only the better rubber on the newly-resurfaced track. As the race progressed tire performance was only going to get better, so it was obvious to start on the harder tire bc by lap 40 or so, the track would have rubbered-in so well, that the differential between old and new hards wasn't going to be that big.

Max could push his hards knowing that everybody else was nurturing their mediums in the first stint.


As for Ferrari, this is the first time I've seen them not have a massive step in the race (either up or down) due to changing to a different compound.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Anyway, I can't believe RB's advantage is due to tires. Clearly, it doesn't matter whether a RB starting position/tire compound, their cars will move up to the front easily. All the cars use the same tires and run on the same track. So their advantage naturally must be the car itself.

Yeah, for whatever reasons, perhaps their cars degrade tires less, but that's still because of the car, not the tires, right?

Anyway, articles like this one is saying RB's DRS just works better with the entire car. Or the entire car is designed based on their DRS. So competitors can't just copy the rear wing DRS design. To make it work, assuming other teams know the tricks, the entire car needs to be redesigned to make it work...

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/red-bull-30kph-speed-advantage-140854627.html

Anyway, given that Ferrari could seemingly match RB's qualifying times, my suspicion is that RB's trick only works in traffic? Without traffic, Ferrari looks pretty damn fast!

So if this were really the case, F1 should just eliminate all DRS zones to minimize RB's advantage.

If that doesn't work, then maybe tie one of Adrian Newey's arms behind his back..., if that still doesn't work, then tie up the other arm... :p

[XHawkeye]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FvnxiKQXsAwRlLV.jpg

https://twitter.com/PeterMcCormack/status/1655620039955951641

[Tom Servo]

The Austin GP was already outrageously expensive, I can't even imagine what a shitshow Vegas is going to be.

[JoeW]

I saw a shot one time where someone was walking by a shop with baseball hats of the teams. $85 for a baseball hat.

[Freude am Fahren]

THe Hamilton hats were regularly up that high in Austin a few years ago. But I did read $300 t shirts.

[JoeW]

Fuuuck

[Crazed_Insanity]

I thought Disneyland was expensive!

I think I’m gonna have to remove attending an F1 race in person from my bucket list! :p

[JoeW]

Interesting article on F1 by Bernie Collins about the tire strategies that proves how much better Max is right now.

Five teams split their tire strategies by starting their leading driver on Medium and the driver further down on the grid on Hards. RBR, Merc, Aston, Alpine and Haas.

Max was the only one to finish ahead of the teammate who started on the Medium tire.

[Kchrpm]

Proves how important it is to have the best DRS speed, it lets you take advantage of the DRS trains instead of getting stuck in them.

[JoeW]

Car design is important for WDC. Ask Hamilton about his WDC cars :)

[Crazed_Insanity]

Anyway, I still think limiting the use of DRS throughout the race should help reduce RBs advantage.

There's no question Max is good. If the situation were reversed with Max on pole and Perez that far back, surely Perez won't end up winning the race regardless which tire he uses...

The fact that RBs could easily pass others on track while Leclerc struggled to pass Haas tells us everything we need to know. :p

Based on qualifying pace, Ferrari designed a good car. However, RB designed and built a great 'race' car!

[JoeW]

Still going back to the minute qualifying time differences between all the cars. It's crazy how a tenth can be the difference between a great car and a car that needs work. But I guess the other cars only need work because they are behind the top car. Someone is always going to be doing it the best leaving the rest to "need work".

And as far as the DRS advantage...they use it during qualifying so the advantage is still only a tenth during the race. But with teams having to manage varying levels of tire wear it really changes the dynamic. If your car is tearing through tires due to car setup/design then you just can't push like other teams. So the "race pace" advantage becomes a factor.

The RBR one lap max pace isn't "dominant" better...but the race pace is just a little better. And over 50 laps a couple of tenths a lap makes a pretty good gap.

Honestly I know guys all know this but typing it makes it real for me.

[Crazed_Insanity]

It is difficult for me to understand why RB's 'dominance' kinda disappeared in qualifying trim. Yeah, they are still fast, but not totally unbeatably fast. In race trim, they are unbeatably fast though.

My guess is that every car is designed with undisturbed airflow in mind and optimized to run fast in such ideal conditions. (Wind tunnel or CFD) However, Adrian Newey probably figured out a way for his cars to be able to run fast in dirty air too.

I can't wait to eventually hear them reveal their secret(s).

Who's the Ross Brawn of the current era capable of one up this aero genius? At the moment, doesn't look like there is one.

Toto went down the wrong path and double downed on the wrong path. I think it's kinda clear to me now that Toto was probably just riding off of Brawn's coattail... Brawn laid a solid foundation. It took him a while, but it was solid enough. At the moment, Mercedes has a nasty foundation unfortunately. I duuno, maybe Toto could fix it, we'll see.

I do believe Ferrari probably has a solid design, but too bad the team is not cohesive enough to be able to extract the most out of it. Their car should have won last year, but too bad the team just wasn't together enough. This year, it's clear RB has the superior car.

I was really hoping Perez could win Miami and continue on his momentum..., but now it looks like Max will probably clinch the title in the next couple of races! :p

[Kchrpm]

Car design is important for WDC. Ask Hamilton about his WDC cars :)

Ask everyone about their WDC cars! And kudos to Red Bull for doing a great job of building a car that isn't just a front-runner, it seemingly excels at dealing with dirty air and maximizing DRS zones.

[JoeW]

The ebb and flow of F1 continues...

[XHawkeye]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FviuNV4aUAAHrAu.jpg

George’s expression… (https://twitter.com/AxisOfOversteer/status/1655264412259991552)

[Tom Servo]

I was just in Miami a couple of weeks ago and one thing that struck me was, even with how vain people can be in Los Angeles, everyone in Miami is basically just screaming "LOOK AT ME! PAY ATTENTION TO ME!" Glad to see that Lewis has embraced that.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I hope that thing reflects the heat well. Hot damn!

[Alan P]

George looking on disapprovingly.

[FaultyMario]

Binotto rumored to take over Szafnauer's job at Alpine.

[JoeW]

I like Binotto. Hope he gets the job.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Me too! He’s certainly my favorite since Ross Brawn. Too bad things didn’t work out. Almost though.

[Alan P]

Binotto rumored to take over Szafnauer's job at Alpine.

Apparently he turned it down.

[FaultyMario]

Who else knew that Logan Sargeant is the son of a, well, 'Florida Man (https://www.justice.gov/usao-edny/pr/sargeant-marine-inc-pleads-guilty-and-agrees-pay-over-16-million-criminal-fines-resolve)'?

[Alan P]

Hmm. Most of the Imola region has been placed on high alert and some sort of semi-lockdown status due to heavy rain and expected heavy localised flooding. Hope everyone is OK!

[Blerpa]

We are ok, but the rivers are the problems.
The city I live in, Casalecchio di Reno, which is basically attached to Bologna, is in no dire straits because they periodically and methodically clean the river's bed and they care about the embarkments... Imola seemingly is not so lucky.
That said, the worst right now is on the coast, if conditions won't worsen from tomorrow onwards any catastrophe will be twarted.

Bologna city is in meteo Red Alert and it is suggested to avoid to go out (honestly there's plenty of the city and surroundings where it is simply heavy raining), Imola is about 40 km from here, more or less the same situation.

[Alan P]

Rumours are that the teams have been advised NOT to report to the Circuit as normal tomorrow morning pending an announcement from the FIA & FOM.

[Rare White Ape]

Send em up the hill to Mugello!!!!!

[FaultyMario]

So the guys that got there on time and got their asses wet setting up camp did it for nothing?

[Blerpa]

Imola 2023 F1 GP has been officially canceled.

4097

[Blerpa]

So the guys that got there on time and got their asses wet setting up camp did it for nothing?

There's no guys up there setting camp, almost all the whole region is unpracticable, even highways near Imola have been inundated.

[Blerpa]

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=553601290265621&t=7

This is an highway between Faenza and Forlì, similar scenes have been seen on the motorway near Imola.
The cement jersey at the middle of the highway is 120cm high, so as a reference.

[Rare White Ape]

I hear that the paddock area is underwater.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Whoa!

[Blerpa]

4098

[Rare White Ape]

Something nice to watch while we take a break from normal proceedings this weekend.


https://youtu.be/XkKUoLoVXbM

[JoeW]

Well sir....that is fucking funny. I'm going to save this page and watch it many times until I catch every little witticism.

Just every little funny reference to the drivers is hilarious. Too many to list...Pewis Pamilton. Latte Boy...George. The King...Latifi. And how he pronounced Will.I.Am...just fucking genius.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Yeah, that was unexpectedly entertaining!

[Blerpa]

The only thing I find amusing is that you people find that crap amusing.
And tasteless take on Verstappen, Piquet and Kyvat's personal life.

Getting back to interesting matters: Imola 2023 GP at 99% will be recovered in 2026, after the contract with FIA and Liberty Media expires in 2025.

[Yobbo NZ]

Glorious 🤣

[Crazed_Insanity]

I really had no idea about their personal stuffs. Max seemingly just took over his racing seat, his girl and his daughter?!?!? If I were Kvyat, I'd probably be devastated... Tasteless perhaps, but still very entertaining because the way he delivered it! :p

Takes quite a talent to put all that together and be able to deliver like that. If he isn't already, I think he could be a top notch professional comedian! Just too bad for Dan...

I also thought he was right on when commenting on Leclerc. "He suddenly remembered who he is and grabbed pole!!!"

Ferrari and Leclerc are potentially way better then they currently are. Probably not better than RB, but certainly they are not near their max potential most of the time. Something is really wrong with that team. Rather than having the synergy to build each other up, they're seemingly breaking each other apart...

[FaultyMario]

I don't know. The scale looks way off.

https://www.racefans.net/wp-content/uploads/2023/05/racefansdotnet-23-05-22-17-15-17-4-MCL60-Triple-Crown-Overhead-1536x1536.jpg

[Alan P]

Looking like a wet weekend. ideally we want changeable conditions during qualifying and during the race too.

https://www.metoffice.gov.uk/weather/forecast/spv2bfe5f#?date=2023-05-28

[Kchrpm]

Rain at Monaco just seems like there will be a bunch of yellows and safety car periods.

[FaultyMario]

Aston Martin will be powered by Honda from 2026.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Man, they're serious about copying everything huh? :p

Whatever works I suppose. Never thought they'd be ahead of Mercedes and Ferrari. Wonder how close they will be to RB come 2026.

[JoeW]

I hate Monaco week. Just the shittiest races...

[Crazed_Insanity]

Better than having floods and cancelled races! :p

[FaultyMario]

Mercedes appear to have ramped up the development of the W14 starting in Monaco.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FxD3jXTWAAAYQIe.jpg

[Crazed_Insanity]

Their new sidepods look better, but still looks kinda off. Don’t have any aero insights, just going by my ‘looks good test’. :p

[FaultyMario]

They say they don't have the floor that goes with the non-zero pods yet.

I suppose they also re-packaged the tidbits inside.

[Rare White Ape]

Oh my, that’s a great looking car. Black is back baby!

[Fiat500]

Say what you will about the racing here, but that qualifying session was bonkers.

[JoeW]

Yeah great qualifying. They should end Monaco after qualifying honestly. That’s the most excitement we’ll get.

I know most of you guys hate Alonso but that motherfucker flies…especially for a nearly 42 yr old. The level of concentration and reflexes necessary for this place is superhuman and he’s destroying his younger teammate every week.

All that aside, should be a shitty race after lap 1.

[FaultyMario]

All that aside, should be a shitty race after lap 1.

Praying for a greasy track.

[JoeW]

Rain!

[FaultyMario]

No, no, rains ruins it! you want just a light drizzle before the formation lap.

[JoeW]

Ok fine...whatever it takes ;)

[Blerpa]

Leclerc demoted 3 places because he blocked Norris last qualifying attempt inside the tunnel.
Seemingly not Leclerc's fault: team notified the monaco driver too late about the brit incoming behind him; still 3 place penalty.
So Leclerc will start 6th on the grid tomorrow.

[Crazed_Insanity]

That’s too bad…

Anyway, the cars are really amazingly close considering their lap times. However, Mercedes is probably still playing catch up.

Hope all other teams got a good look under Perez’s car so they can get even closer next year!

[FaultyMario]

Yeah, I don't think the RB had the space to stretch its legs. It should lap the lower end of the field in Silverstone1.










____

1 If the new Pirellis aren't exactly what the FIA asked, that is.

[JoeW]

I absolutely would love to watch nothing but those super slow mo videos of the drivers barely brushing the guardrails….like all day. That shit is ridiculous.

[FaultyMario]

Dude, last year I told you Monaco has always been a shit race.

And, at the same time, it has always been the greatest show of driving talent on earth.

[FaultyMario]

I mean, coming back to these back alleys to drive at speeds in excess of 150 mph after knocking yourself unconscious? These guys are special.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOM5SzxEFGU

[JoeW]

Yup. To the post before this one :)

[Crazed_Insanity]

Alonso almost could’ve won, right?

Anyway, interesting to see AM and Alpine on the podium. Mercedes and Ferrari are just crumbling still… and guess one the the main reason RB is running away is because other teams are just not in very good shape?

[XHawkeye]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FxPufiJXsAIX7Rn.jpg

[XHawkeye]

Monaco Grand Prix [qualifying] lap time comparison between Max Verstappen and Fernando Alonso (https://twitter.com/Formuladdict/status/1662669308105768960) <--- Open for video

[Crazed_Insanity]

That’s a very interesting side by side comparison. I wonder if Max was making more errors in the 1st 2 sectors? Or perhaps both drivers were near limit, but RB actually has power deficit going up hill? There’s no trick Adrian Newey can do to overcome gravity, right?

That should be plausible? There’s no way RB could make a better engines than Mercedes…?

Would love to see how Ferrari compares…

[CudaMan]

I want to see Max's onboard video from his pole lap, specifically the last sector.

Poor Lando, so skilled in the wet but always making the wrong choice on when to pit as conditions change. He wasn't contending for the win this time like in Russia but still.

[Kchrpm]

I want to see Max's onboard video from his pole lap, specifically the last sector.

Embeds aren't allowed, but here you go! https://youtu.be/lZ0bHr8UW7k

[JoeW]

His first sector was down.2 so he knew he was down on pole as he went through sector 2. I guess on the final sector he just said fuck it and took every risk possible.

[CudaMan]

Thanks Keith!

Boy is so smooth. I can see how he's able to prioritize entry/apex speeds but somehow not compromise his exits hardly if at all. He's got this beautiful entry to Mirabeau, the car is subtly rotating on the limit while the suspension is bouncing properly (little aero load here) on entry, and he's not correcting the car. That's ideal, he nailed it. And rubbing the barriers or coming within an inch of them so many times in the last half of the lap, amazing. Except the last wall touch on the front straight, that just looked sloppy. :lol:

Wish F1 could get the sound synced properly on their onboards. It's not too far off here but enough to throw off the viewer's perception of when he's braking or picking up the throttle.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Really? You could tell the sound was not quite in sync? At least to me, the kissing of the wall sounded almost in sync? Or at least I couldn't tell the difference! :p

Didn't realize Max also had lots of traffic to contend with... man, these guys are really good. To be so close to one another in qualifying.

[CudaMan]

Watch the gear indicator and the rev lights on his steering wheel when he's in the tunnel. The shift sound is slightly before the actual shift.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Man, I could not understand what those LED indicator lights are indicating... sometimes they don't light up at all and when they do light up, it does look way off compared to the gear shift sounds.

However only in the tunnel, we can also see the gear # show up on the steering wheel. The gear shift sound is a bit faster than the # display.

Anyway, the wall banging sound still seems to be right on though! :p Still can't believe Max could brush the wall on the straight at the last sector and still get pole!

[Tom Servo]

Wish F1 could get the sound synced properly on their onboards. It's not too far off here but enough to throw off the viewer's perception of when he's braking or picking up the throttle.

I remember when they first started broadcasting in HD, I thought something was wrong with my setup the sound was so out of sync. All these years later and it's just as bad as the first day they moved to 1080.

[JoeW]

Well at least it's not like in the movies where every car has seemingly 40 gears.

[FaultyMario]

OMG Devries is just not F1 material.

[JoeW]

Yeah…never ask on the radio “what am I doing wrong there”. Not a good look. Sargent is struggling too. Piastri not the genius everyone thought either. Norris just outclassing him bigly.

Otherwise an odd grid.

How about those Mercedes guys? Wtf were they doing?

[Crazed_Insanity]

Piastri as a rookie isn’t too bad, compared to Ricciardo… Lando is clearly somebody special and his talent shows even in an inferior car.

It’s just kinda disappointing to see pretty much all the championship contenders falling away so early in the season.

[Kchrpm]

Mercedes had a distinct lack of communication, coordination, and mirror usage. Disappointing.

[JoeW]

Perez is such a scrub. I guarantee Max would have won from where Perez started. But Perez finishing 30secs back is kind of embarrassing.

LeClerc had nothing today. Sainz faded. Aston also never a factor. Mercedes upgrades definitely pushed them forward.

Good fighting in mid pack.

Kinda disagree with the Tsunoda penalty.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Yeah, not sure why they called the penalty. Even if they were to collide, it’d be a racing incident to me.

So Yuki is supposed to just yield to the car charging from behind?

I thought the more dangerous maneuver was Ocon trying to block Alonso on the straight pushing Alonso into the pit exit…

Anyway, not my call to make anyways, just thought F1 still makes questionable calls…

Lastly, it’s still a decent recovery for Perez I guess. At least he beat the Ferraris. Of course we can probably safely count him out as a championship contender. Hope Mercedes will continue to improve and stop communicating like Ferrari… maybe we’ll have closer racing next season.

[FaultyMario]

LeClerc had nothing today.

Kinda disagree with the Tsunoda penalty.

I think it's the car. The big upgrade must affect the drivers' styles differently, Leclerc just looked baffled.

The Tsunoda penalty was BS. Zhou got spooked and bailed, I mean, Tsunoda wasn't in total control, but the Alpha Tauri was sliding on exit, not on entry. I think that's part of racing hard.

[JoeW]

Max could “potentially” become 3rd on the all time wins list this season.

Current standings:

Max 40
Senna 41
Prost 51
Vettel 53

[Crazed_Insanity]

Considering current state of competing teams, yeah, 3rd of all times is definitely possible.

Considering that we have so many races/season and I still don’t see who can really challenge RBs, Max could almost be goat before 2026? ;)

Even as a fanboy, this is not what I want to see.

RB is likely to continue its dominance.
Hope Mercedes will continue to improve with their new sidepods.
Ferrari has obviously made its problems bigger by changing leadership…

AM is the only pleasant surprise. However, considering how trigger happy Honda has been at quitting, not keeping my hopes up come 2026.

Lando needs a fast car! Will Mclaren ever be fast again?

[Blerpa]

Considering they race 20-23 times per season, compared to just half as that 30 years ago and even less in the gold era of F1, is easy to see modern top driver topping that charts... quantity over quality.
Percentages of wins per races is where is at.

F1 is made of cyclical teams and drivers dominance, I repeat once again. It ain't the motorsport you want to follow, Billi.

[JoeW]

Well easy there tiger. When Senna passed they were racing 16-17 per season…they started doing 18 then 19 in 2005…Schumacher still around winning WDC. It’s not like the races are any easier.

If the benchmark of “best ever” is Hamilton…he started driving when they were running 18-19 per year. And they just started this extended calendar crap of 22 races a couple seasons ago. It was 20-21 per season for quite awhile. So you’re arguing that a couple extra races per season somehow diminishes the value of the wins? If anything it is harder on the teams. Which is why they are railing against it.

Even if you take a couple race wins off Max over the last two seasons to satisfy some strange requirement of yours….he could still pass 3rd place early next season quite easily. With 4 or 5 years left on his contract he should easily be able to solidify 60-70 wins and a solid spot in the top 3.

Outside realm of possibility to beat Schumachers 91 and Hamilton’s 103 given a top car and the desire to keep driving into his 30’s.

I think those that dislike him will always find a stat to diminish what he’s doing. Which is fine. But when Hamilton was racking up the wins everyone was praising the rise of the best ever. Max is doing the same thing right now…

[Kchrpm]

I thought Blerpa was bundling Max, Vettel, and Hamilton as all the modern drivers who had a better chance due to the number of races, rather than the drivers from 30 years ago.

Going by win percentage as he suggested, Lewis isn't even in the top 3, and he's just going to get worse for the rest of his career:

https://www.planetf1.com/features/top-10-highest-f1-win-percentages/


[Figures correct as of March 2023]

10: Max Verstappen – 21.82%

9: Stirling Moss – 24.24%

8: Ayrton Senna – 25.47%

7: Alain Prost – 25.63%

6: Jackie Stewart – 27.27%

5: Michael Schumacher – 29.64%

4: Lewis Hamilton – 33.01%

3: Jim Clark – 34.72%

2: Alberto Ascari – 40.63%

1: Juan Manuel Fangio – 47.06%

But perhaps Ascari should be removed for only doing 3 seasons.

[JoeW]

Let’s think about it like this…most of the big names started around age 22. If we think of Max’s first 4 seasons as basically development years…like most drivers spend those years in GP3 or GP2. You know, the maturing years. I mean how prolific do you expect a teenager to be in F1?

So if you only count what he’s done the last 4 seasons it’s pretty damn impressive for you stat junkies :)

[Crazed_Insanity]

Considering they race 20-23 times per season, compared to just half as that 30 years ago and even less in the gold era of F1, is easy to see modern top driver topping that charts... quantity over quality.
Percentages of wins per races is where is at.

F1 is made of cyclical teams and drivers dominance, I repeat once again. It ain't the motorsport you want to follow, Billi.

I understand. Don't get me wrong, I don't expect F-1 to be like Indycars or Nascars or EZGT... :p

Which is why I loved the Senna era so much. He and Prost were teammates! There was also Nigel Mansell in his superior Williams Renault.

It's always nice to have sparks like that every so often. I have stopped paying attention to Indycars, but as boring as it sometimes have gotten, I've continued to keep up with F-1 though.

Anyway, Max is obviously already the next Vettel or Hamilton. Both Vettel and Hamilton have met formidable teammates, hopefully he will be matched up with one eventually to make things more interesting.

[Kchrpm]

But I'm not going to do that :) We can interpret the statistics however we want with whatever justification, he won't care and neither should we. I will likely never like the guy, and I don't really care where he (or anyone, maybe even not Lewis), lands in the "best ever" conversation because it's such an impossible thing to really determine. I think I'm so burnt out on the NBA discussion that any "best ever" sports discussion just makes me want to back away. Let's look at the stats for what they are, and think about the peculiarities around them, but not pretend there's any definitive "right" way to look at any of them.

[JoeW]

I’m not pointing it out for “best ever” honors. Just to acknowledge that another great one has arrived. Impossible to compare eras as we know. But as much as many people try to diminish what he’s doing, he’s driving as well as Hamilton ever drove. He manages races, saves tires, strategizes and even points out when Markos phone is on in the background while he’s driving around corners at 5gs and 200mph.

The fact that he started at 17 can really only hurt his legacy later. And he has his father to blame for that. As impressive as it was for a teenager to do what he was doing in a F1 car…and all the “youngest driver” records…it didn’t do him any favors.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I thought Blerpa was bundling Max, Vettel, and Hamilton as all the modern drivers who had a better chance due to the number of races, rather than the drivers from 30 years ago.

Going by win percentage as he suggested, Lewis isn't even in the top 3, and he's just going to get worse for the rest of his career:

https://www.planetf1.com/features/top-10-highest-f1-win-percentages/



But perhaps Ascari should be removed for only doing 3 seasons.

Vettel is not even on the list, which is rightfully so I believe.

I really don't have a good feel of those older drivers, but Hamilton and Schumacher just felt like they are on similar level. Ham's stats will only begin to go down before his retirement. Prost and Senna go hand in hand felt right too. However, considering Senna had a much shorter career and he also never had the benefit of having a superior car for long durations... the guy was just amazing!

Max is on a similar path as Vettel, Ham and Sch... 30% career win rate should be possible. If other teams continue to fumble like this season, Max just might be able to challenge Fangio! :p

[JoeW]

Max won’t reach 30%. His teenage seasons will always hold his stats down. He’d have to really go on a tear for a few more seasons. I think downfall of RBR is fast approaching. This new cost cap nonsense is going to eliminate the dynasties.

Looking it up…if he retires after 2028…that’s 123 more races assuming 22 races per season through 2028. He would need to win 48 more races between now and then.

That’s a tall order when the regs and rules are designed to prevent it…unlike the days of yore…pre 2021 :)

[Crazed_Insanity]

Every rule change, inevitably one team will emerge as a dominant team and until the next rule change.

If current state of affairs continue, Max could win lots of races.

It’s not all to RBs credit, Max has performed exceptionally. Winning either from pole or from behind. Perez couldn’t put that on his resume.

At least Mercedes and AM are inching forward. Still, I’m not hopeful of the Honda powered AM. Pretty sure Honda will withdraw on the verge of an AM championship win! :p

Adrian Newey will probably retire out of boredom soon.

[XHawkeye]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FxyXirfWAAEbhSD.jpg

[JoeW]

I assume the RB number includes the Alpha Tauri numbers as well? :)

[FaultyMario]

The percentages show the type of ruthless beasts Clark and Senna actually were.

[JoeW]

Which is why I enjoy how Max drives. Killer instincts.

[FaultyMario]

Spoiled brat. Son of an exploitative asshole.

[JoeW]

Birth status are things we can not control.

All of these drivers have never wanted for anything in their lives.

[Kchrpm]

One cannot control their birth status, but one can be aware of their privilege, and go out of their way to care for the well being of others less fortunate than them and try to use their fame and influence for good.

I'm trying to figure out a polite way to laugh at you for the second comment, but I'd rather just not go into that yet again.

[JoeW]

Because it’s true? All these drivers have grown up not wanting for anything. They have known no financial struggles growing up. Their parents gave them everything they need to be successful racers. Not sure why you thought I might be joking.

[FaultyMario]

Not the case for half the field. Perez's own exploitative dad would have him wash racecars as a kid.

The Vettels, like the Schumis, would mortgage the family business in order to give their talented sons a shot a success. In very German fashion, they were non-professional middle class. It has been discovered that Schumacher donated many of his millions to good causes, and not only to the Banda Aceh fund. I'm certain it's the same for Vettel.

So, having a killer instinct doesn't mean being a turd to others. Eddie Irvine and Jacques Fucking Villeneuve sure comply with that rule, but many others don't. Hell, I'm sure 87% of the last 200 F1 drivers would qualify as instinctive killers (or Mortal Kombatants), but I'd rather root for the street fighters.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Anyway, back to Senna, he was ruthless on track, but a pretty decent guy off track right?

Poor Brazilians love him and even Prost befriended him.

Max is probably not like Senna off track but as long as he’s not like Epstein kind of asshole, I can still enjoy watching a talented driver at work.

[Kchrpm]

Suggesting that the drivers with middle class parents who excelled at karting and got noticed had the same privileges throughout their life as the people born with millionaire and billionaire parents that already had F1 contacts or were themselves F1 contacts is exactly why I didn't want to bother with this.

"None of them were homeless, so they're all the same. What's the difference between your dad having four jobs to afford your karting ambitions and then having to be your mechanic as well, and a millionaire/billionaire father that buys the best equipment and professional support that money can buy at every step? IT'S EXACTLY THE SAME!"

And therefore it's ok for Max to be a spoiled little brat that gets mad when people use their celebrity to talk about social injustice instead of just focusing more on the only thing he's ever had to think about his entire life because he's a rich white nepo baby.

[JoeW]

You are obviously trying to bend what I said to fit a narrative that you tend to want cultivate whenever this comes up.

I said none of these kids ever wanted for anything and I stand by it. None of them were “poor” or wondering if they were getting fed tomorrow. If your family can afford a luxury and wasteful expenditure such as racing then they were doing fine.

Of course there are different levels of fine…but that’s not what I’m talking about.

Any kid that rolls up into class Monday talking about how he did in the karting races on Sunday is proud and happy as fuck to be doing something very few kids get to experience.

I wanted to race motorcycles when I was that age but we couldn’t afford it. But I would have been jealous of any kid in class who did have the means to do it.

[Kchrpm]

And that's why I didn't even want to laugh at how silly your statement was :) "None of them wondered if they were getting fed tomorrow" doesn't mean they were on equal footing when it comes to something that burns money like racing does.

But there's not really a point in going round in circles with you about this yet again.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I think there’s clearly a misunderstanding here. JoeW wasn’t saying they have equal footing. Nobody has equal footing in this world. No team has equal footing. However, there’s a min entrance fee you gotta pay. Just as you have to be well off enough to not worry about feeding yourself and able to afford all the equipment to train…

Without meeting min requirements, you can’t even get your foot in the door.

Billionaire dads can certainly make it easier for you to get in that door, but to be a multi champ, obviously will require more than a rich dad.

All modern past multi champs had been some sort of divas or self entitled assholes. Senna believes he has a God given right to win. Given his performance record, I’m not going to argue against that.

Are these folks spoiled brats? To me, spoiled brats are self entitled assholes who’s not willing to put in any work. At least we know these multichamps do put in a lot of hard work to get to where they are.

Anyway, I think it should be clear that having money alone won’t be enough. Toyota would’ve won a championship. Also having talent alone won’t be enough. Otherwise JoeW would’ve been an F1 Champ rather than chatting here in this forum! :p

[Rare White Ape]

Does talent alone get your foot in the door?

It should. But it doesn't. Why is that?

Hmm... one wonders.

How many people have missed out, and will continue to miss out, because of this?

I'd be listening to the guys with actual lived experience of what societal oppression looks and feels like, rather than circling around the core of the topic.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Let’s remove human emotions out of this.

Let’s continue to use F1 as example.

Should F1 get rid of min requirements and simply allow anyone who wish to join… join? How will FIA spot a ‘talented’ team and let it in?

Is such ideal even possible?

The ‘core’ you’re talking about is like perfection. It’s unrealistic and impossible, but of course we could continue to strive toward it.

Price of entry into racing has been lowered more and more. PlayStation is now sufficient to launch a racing career. However, it’s still too expensive for poor people who are starving. Also not everyone who can afford a PlayStation can become Cudaman.

[Kchrpm]

Should F1 get rid of minimum requirements? For what, a driver having a super license? What does that have to do with the discussion? Regardless, no, though maybe they should change how they award the points to give more respect to IndyCar.

Racing will always be expensive and glamorous, and increasingly so as you go up the ranks, and therefore the rich and connected will always have an advantage. If there are two young drivers of equal talent and drive, and one has access to the best equipment and coaching, they will have a better opportunity to improve. That compounds over time.

We need the rich and connected for the sport of auto racing to exist, and that will never change, but we don't need to agree with their social and political views.

[FaultyMario]

Or have an emotional connection to their success.

[Crazed_Insanity]

There’s no question that we don’t need to agree with views of the rich.

I think it’s also important to note that nobody’s view on this is right except perhaps Pareto’s and he doesn’t lean right nor left. He’s more math and nature based. 20% of pea pods produced 80% of peas. No political agendas, that’s just how it is. 20% of population will eventually accumulate 80% of overall wealth all just by ‘chance’. https://www.technologyreview.com/2018/03/01/144958/if-youre-so-smart-why-arent-you-rich-turns-out-its-just-chance/amp/

Of course, anything can be changed. However, my point is that we don’t need to direct anger at the rich nor GOP nor JoeW nor Billi. These people didn’t cause this. God or Mother Nature or Math did it!

Now, F1 is not just about the top 20% thought. To be a multi champ, you are probably the top 0.000000000000001%!

This can no longer happen all by chance!

Rich dad won’t ever help you get there. Lewis Hamilton for sure didn’t have a billionaire dad and pretty evident that he didn’t get to where he is by pure chance/luck.

We need a combo of luck and talent in order to move up in the world.

Even if we have a system that eliminates luck and based purely on talent…. In a way that is still unfair, right?

Just because you’re ‘born’ talented or smart or handsome, why should you be ahead of other born less talented, dumber and uglier people? :p

Hard work seems to be the fairest metric, but seriously, what if this hard worker is Forrest Gump? Would you want pay him a high salary as a factory worker?!?! ;)

Anyway, regarding this topic, I really have a lot of respect for the Hamilton’s. However, at times, Lewis Hamilton was still lucky. For sure luckier than JoeW to have a dad like that! If JoeW were JoeH, maybe it could’ve been him racing for Mercedes! Unfortunately JoeW is an unlucky sob so his racing career was forever doomed from the start. What lousy white privileges he had. :p

Seriously, I remember JoeW was one of those super fast online racers who I had difficulties catching. If he has a racing career, he probably could amount to something!

[Crazed_Insanity]

I think Pareto distribution probably works in F1 as well. Regardless how F1 rewards championship points, 20% of the top F1 drivers will likely score 80% of all points!

So although F1 is full of rich white people, money won’t always get you near the top anymore. Seriously, considering all the rich billionaires’s kid paid drivers. Are they really the ones driving for top teams scoring the most points? They’re usually in struggling teams as their #2 drivers and very boring to watch.

Lance Stroll is probably the luckiest and most talented paid driver that I’ve seen lately. If he becomes a multi champ, sure, he can thank his dad a lot, but he probably should deserve some credit if he could beat his teammates fair and square. if you can’t really beat an old geezer teammate, you’ll probably never be a multi champ. I don’t care how much money you have, you just won’t be one. Unless Honda engine became so damn powerful like in the 80’s and daddy make sure to sign only #2 drivers…

This might happen I suppose, but I kinda doubt future Adrian Newey or Ross Brawn’s would want to work for team Lance that way.

[FaultyMario]

When did they stop teaching marshals how to double wave?

[FaultyMario]

What the hell is wrong with Sainz?

I mean, besides the usually wrong.

[JoeW]

Yeah some really bad awareness going on.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I wonder he’s doing that on purpose or team Ferrari just doesn’t communicate clearly to the driver that there is a train behind him and he should stay off the racing line…

If that was done on purpose, he really should be severely penalized.

I think it should be clear now that the source of Ferrari’s problem wasn’t Binotto?

Binotto probably should’ve been given the power to fire who he wanted to fire… the team is even more disorganized and giving up on their bathtub sidepods didn’t show much improvement, unlike Mercedes.

Things are just getting worse all around.

[Rare White Ape]

Hulk’s lost his front row start because he was travelling too fast around the circuit when the red flag came out during qualifying. He will now start fifth.

Sainz, Tsunoda, and Stroll have also each been given a three-place penalty for impeding.

[FaultyMario]

Nah, I don't think the 2022 Formula solved the overtaking problem either.

Can we change the design of the cars again?

[Crazed_Insanity]

It solved it for Max at least! It’s other drivers’ problem if they can’t make passes…

Alonso passing Hamilton shows Mercedes still has a lot of room for improvement.

Now that Max is solidly made his place in F1 history, I think I want to switch to being Lando Norris’ fanboy now. He’s also making passes. Just very inspiring to watch.

[FaultyMario]

It solved it for Max at least!

Yeah, I loved his hair-raising overtakes!!

:rolleyes:

I'm as happy as anyone for Alex Albon to be BOTR, but Trulli-trains were not what we were promised when we swapped '21 edge-of-your-seat excitement for... well, this.

[JoeW]

So I watched the main broadcast and I’m trying to watch the alternate Ricciardo/Arnette broadcast after the race and boy is it terrible. It really gives you an appreciation for the professional broadcasters. Wil and Daniel talking is really terrible…no real insight, lots of near silence and just useless commentary on things not race related. These guys have no charisma. I hope someone didn’t choose this as their main way to watch the race.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Yeah, I loved his hair-raising overtakes!!

:rolleyes:

I'm as happy as anyone for Alex Albon to be BOTR, but Trulli-trains were not what we were promised when we swapped '21 edge-of-your-seat excitement for... well, this.

Difficult to say if the train was due to the rules or drivers?

If Max were starting last, he’d be passing left and right and win the race still! However, Perez seemed to have a harder time replicating that when he qualified poorly.

Quite honestly how would you tweak the rules to make it better? I just want them to get rid of DRS, but not sure how that’ll improve the show, just want to end RB’s dominance in that areas…

[FaultyMario]

Come on!

After 8 races of 1st RBR, 2nd AMR, 3rd/4th FER/MB and 3 points left for ALP/McL, you cannot think it's not the rules!

DRS zones have got to go. Give the driver (amount of laps)*1.25= DRS clicks per race.

Wanna defend? Use DRS; Wanna attack? Use DRS; Wanna straightline it from Eau Rouge to Les Combes? Be my guest.

And it's not like there's no precedent, the stupid 1-second DRS activation rule is not used in qualifying sessions.

[JoeW]

Well to be fair the new regs have made it easier to follow closely for extended periods of time. I don’t really know the solution because more rules to bring everyone artificially closer on track will turn F1 into Indycar. And the world doesn’t want that. F1 is about ultimate performance, high G racing. We can’t have both I don’t think. So either let the teams go nuts like back in the day or go Indycar…meh.

[Kchrpm]

I'm with Mario: I think that limiting the amount of time you can use DRS, rather than when and where you can use it, could be an interesting fix.

So instead of everyone in a DRS train gets to (and has to) use it at every DRS zone just to keep up, you can decide whether to use it now or later. I would first want to test giving drivers only enough to use it for the long straights for half the race, or even less. Rather than it being the assumption that you would need it every time, it would perhaps be a cat and mouse of game of will you burn it this lap or not, will you use it now and then trust your defense or wait until later to make a mad dash on a lighter fuel load.

[JoeW]

Honestly a DRS train is better than no train at all. I'm curious how close the racing would be with little to no DRS. The Albon train would never have happened...the Norris overtakes would not have happened. I try to go back to all the close racing and take away most, if not all, of the DRS and see how close it would have been.

Right now it's all we've got. I really wouldn't mind going back to previous regs and just letting the big money dogs dominate again. If there was a way to have smaller, high downforce cars AND make it easier to follow...

Of course this conversation comes up when they race at tracks like this. But then when they go to a cool track with lots of action then we're ok with it. Canada has zero med or high speed corners....just straights, hard braking and more straights. So the DRS thing is all we see.

Anywho...no real solutions...hopefully they change some shit up in 2026.

[FaultyMario]

change some shit up in 2026.

Painted self into corner, waits for paint to dry.

Doesn't sound like a winning strategy.

[JoeW]

Apparently it hasn't been a winning strategy in quite some time. But it's all we have to hope for. Limiting DRS isn't the answer. Because DRS probably wasn't the solution in the first place but it's all we've got. Who the hell knows...back in the day we were bitching because races weren't close enough because drivers couldn't follow for more than a lap without burning up the tires. Now they can follow more closely but it's either allowing passes to be too easy or creating a train of non-passing, but close, following. I don't know what the hell they can do to make us happy ;)

[Kchrpm]

I don't think that DRS allows you to follow closely, though, does it? I guess it lets you catch back up on a straightaway after falling back into clean air, so on average you're closer even if following isn't any easier.

I honestly don't know what the total effect would be of changing how DRS can be used. For example what does it do for the cars that currently can't use DRS at all, like the leader of the race, the car in front of the DRS train, or anyone following a leader or any other car that just needs to stay out of DRS range rather than pushing. Does that make the rich richer by letting the fastest car/driver also get a DRS boost? Does it change your strategy because you don't just need to get a 1+ second gap at the start to be out of DRS zone and then you're free and clear? If second place decides to use DRS to catch and pass you in the opening laps with "artificial" speed do you respond or just be patient behind them?

The "easy" answer that most give is for the cars to be smaller, lighter, have slightly less downforce, and have much more mechanical grip, but I don't know if that truly fixes things as much as people assume, and I don't know if that's what the teams/drivers want. If it was that simple, why wouldn't they have done it already, etc.

[FaultyMario]

I don't know what the hell they can do to make us happy ;)


Come up with rules that won't favor the one team that has control of one particularly scarce resource and won't lock up performance levels over the long term?

[JoeW]

I don’t follow your implication. Is there a single team that has some scarce resource not available to other teams? Normally I’d say you were talking about Mercedes because they make every part on their car. But Mercedes isn’t really killing it right now so I’m not sure who you think is getting the only benefit from the new rules….that also has some scarce resource. Surely you can’t mean Red Bull and their scarce energy drinks?

[FaultyMario]

Tires in the Schumacher era, power units in the Mercedes era, Newey in the RB years.

If dominance is an unintended consequence, then fail-safes must be in place.

[FaultyMario]

Formula One Management has said that WEC-style Balance-Of-Performance is not an avenue that they'd wish to explore for more parity in the series. That's OK.

The problem is that they haven't said how they're going to not make it a "the team who gets it right at the beginning gets to win every race for 4 years" kind of competition.

[JoeW]

Well that’s exactly what the cost cap is for. We should start seeing those consequences next year.

I’d rather it be like when Mercedes won all those years…let other teams innovate to catch up. Don’t rule and regulate teams to the point that they can’t think up cool shit.

[FaultyMario]

let other teams innovate to catch up

Catch up after RB timed their interpretation of the cost-cap rules at the precise moment where everyone after them would get diminishing returns? That doesn't seem likely.

FIA/FOM dropped the ball massively there, Red Bull looked after their interests, of course, but FIA/FOM should have corrected course once they found out the implications for the championship. A penalty isn't the only available option they have at their disposal.

[JoeW]

Well interpreting rules, financial or technical, is what teams have done since the beginning of time. So good on them. Everyone does it, others complain, FIA eventually closes the loophole…rinse and repeat.

I see you are particularly irked with the RB dominance of only 1.5yrs right now (2021 was basically even). But apparently the 7 yr Mercedes dominance was ok.

Minor edit...I wish I could call it RB dominance...but Perez is downright terrible right now. If he hadn't won those two races (where Max had recovery drives to 2nd) then he would likely be fired by now. Because if Max doesn't win, he fights back through to 2nd place. When Perez doesn't win he struggles to get a few places back.

Imagine if RB had a 2nd driver as good as Rosberg or, dare I say, Bottas? Then they would be really killing it. Ooh...imagine how pissed everyone would be. I mean they hate Max now...

[FaultyMario]

When Super Aguri invented the double diffuser and the Honda engineers developed it for the 2009 season, the rules allowed for the rest of the teams to catch up and they did so by mid-season. When AMG invented the split turbo recovery system for the 2014 season, most other manufacturers had it figured out in two years and tokened it out in the next months.

If FOM isn't aware that RB's cleverly timed interpretation of the cost-cap rule cannot be circumvented during the 2022-2026 development cycle and does not do something (other than handicapping RB) for sustaining the interest of fans in the interim, then FOM is not acting in the interest of the sport.

The know-how to implement the "integrated aerodynamic floor" is obviously a scarce resource, so much so that only two teams have access to its associated human resources, RBR who developed it, and AMR who hired half of the RBR staff.

[JoeW]

There can’t be penalties for being smart.

[FaultyMario]

I AM NOT ADVOCATING FOR PENALTIES!!

[Crazed_Insanity]

One simple rule I can think of is you cannot update your car whenever you win a race?

Teams can still prepare updates and give to the other driver who didn’t win the race…

Point is if Max just keeps on winning races, his goal post shall remain stationary until at least one rival beats him in a race or something. This should at least prevent a single driver dominating over everyone else…

As for trains…, that happens in every era more or less right?

Anyway, the other thing I wanted to discuss is do you guys agree Lando was ‘unsportsmanlike’ and worthy of that penalty?

Besides updating regulations for cars, I think F1 has more issues with racing regulations.

[JoeW]

Well technically it was a safety car violation. But they slapped a different name on it. It is against the rules so there must be a penalty.

[Rare White Ape]

Regarding DRS:

Yes get rid of it. The passing is artificial and sometimes way too easy. I said as much last year when watching the racing at Abu Dhabi.

And when they do pass after using DRS it is common to see the cars looking awkward and struggling to keep within the track limits on the corner exit. The reason for this is that these things are designed to be hot-lap machines where perfect uninterrupted laps are optimised. The teams know that qualifying (and thus starting position) is the more important part of the weekend and yields the best results.

They don’t handle well when off the ideal racing line or when following another car. There are two main culprits for this: the wheelbase is too long, and the difference in downforce between high and low speed is quite large.

How to solve this? I don’t know, aside from limiting wheelbase lengths. But you would have to solve this in order to successfully take away DRS.

Open wheelers by their very nature are aero sensitive. I watched IndyCars at Road America this weekend on its smooth new high-grip track surface struggling to overtake a bit more compared to last year, some of which was solved by their push-to-pass fuel allowance. The last phases of the race became somewhat of a precession once the leaders had pitted for the final stops and no FCYs were brought out. As an extreme example the Indy 500 is won on fuel strategy and luck, because nobody can get within 10 car lengths due to aero wash.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I dunno. Whether his slowness was unsafe or unsportsmanlike, they need to be able to call these infractions out asap before the end of a race.

They really need consistency with rules and with their enforcement. I guess they just don’t learn.

Imagine somebody thought they won the race or championship and then later they say sorry, here’s your penalty! You lost!

[JoeW]

Well they called it mid race.

[Rare White Ape]

Oh was this about Norris backing up the SC queue so as to not cause a delay for himself due to double-stacking in the pits?

Yeah. That's unsportsmanlike. And it has happened before, in 2020 the FIA was persuaded to clamp down on that behaviour.

So not only is it unsportsmanlike, the FIA is also going to penalise and apply its own rules consistently.

You will never guess who the driver was from that 2020 incident: https://au.motorsport.com/f1/news/fia-clampdown-pitlane-entry-norris/4874169/

[Crazed_Insanity]

Interesting. So this has happened to Lando before? He probably forgotten about it because he wasn’t penalized back then?

Still, cracking down on this will likely be difficult. How do we ensure all cars under yellow are fast/close enough together and also slow enough to be safe?

[Crazed_Insanity]

Crazy amount of lap times deleted! I have no problems with deleting lap time for drivers who went out of bound, but why couldn’t they make a call right there and then and let the drivers know that your lap didn’t count before the session is over?

Anyway, another chance for Perez to try to be like Max to be able to come from behind and win? ;)

[JoeW]

I imagine the really close calls require several replays which takes a lot of time. Impossible to police these in real time.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Then don’t make rules that you can’t enforce in time.

After winning the race and sprayed your Champaign and then be notified… sorry you didn’t win! :p

I feel particularly bad for Perez, just when you thought you were 2nd fastest… all of a sudden you find out you didn’t even make the cut.

This is just stupid IMHO.

This is F1, there should also be sufficient tech to instantly notify somebody went off course!

Plus, I think cutting corners’ definitely bad, but going outside of track on the outside is gaining advantage?

[JoeW]

Yes at certain corners. I'm all for voiding the times of these guys when they go out of bounds. Stay inside the fucking lines...you're professional F1 drivers...stop crying and drive fast, inside the lines ;)

The hilarious deletions are at the corner BEFORE the final corner (across from pit entry). Where they purposefully do a little jog to the left (to set up the entry to the final corner). I laughed when some of them got times deleted by purposefully turning off the track there.

[Rare White Ape]

Wild idea: PUT SOME FUCKING GRASS ON THE EDGE OF THE TRACK.

[JoeW]

Well not typically a fan of sprint races but this one was awesome.

[Crazed_Insanity]

It’s interesting both Ferrari and Mercedes cannot attempt to attack RBs on the same track? Looks like there’ll be a long ways to go to catch RB…

[2ndMoparMan]

No one's catching RB. Race for second and third now.

[FaultyMario]

Race for second and third now.


https://humornama.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Wake-Me-Up-When-September-Ends-Memes-on-Green-Day-758x426.jpg

[FaultyMario]

I'm anxiously awaiting the Carlos Sainz hit: "Stop inventin', he was intimidatin'".

[JoeW]

Honestly this was a pretty good race. Lots of good battles through the field.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I thought so too! Especially Max had to work hard for his win rather than just cruise to a win with a huge margin of victory.

Leclerc really needs to remember who he is more often.

[Kchrpm]

I thought so too! Especially Max had to work hard for his win rather than just cruise to a win with a huge margin of victory.

You mean when his lead was so large that he could pit for new tires and set the fastest lap without worrying about Leclerc passing him?

[JoeW]

That was a real ballsy call btw. With only a 2 sec window to not fuck it up...I was shocked.

[Kchrpm]

Definitely, and one the team did not want to make, especially as he'd only be taking the point from his teammate, whom they also support. But whatever Maxi wants, Maxi gets, and little point, little Maxi wants you. I presume any driver with such a lead would want to do the same, I don't know how many teams would allow it.

[JoeW]

Yeah Hamilton would have done the same. I guess any WDC caliber driver is extremely motivated...you never know if there will be 3 or 4 DNFs due to power unit failures, gearbox etc. So scoop them up if they are available.

Side note...I'm assuming Yuki, Sargeant and Devries will likely be out of jobs after this season. I'm also seeing very little from Piastri so far. Lando is just a higher caliber driver. Silly season should be quite interesting this year. Lots of contracts up after this and next season. I think Max is the only guy contracted beyond that.

[Crazed_Insanity]

You mean when his lead was so large that he could pit for new tires and set the fastest lap without worrying about Leclerc passing him?

I had no clue about that based on the highlights reel… :o

Wish Leclerc was able to keep him behind… :p

[JoeW]

Do you watch any of the races?

[Crazed_Insanity]

Fully? Nope.

Don’t have enough time nowadays man… plus too cheap to pay for it! :p

[XHawkeye]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F0XY0DwXoAAGiYN.jpg

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F0XxfOTXgAEX5dr.jpg

[Crazed_Insanity]

Wow. He’s approaching Senna!

However, Senna had Prost as teammate, Max has Perez! :p

[JoeW]

Approached. The streak ended in Austria.

[Crazed_Insanity]

If Ricciardo never left the team, this would be one great season. But of course he left like Prost because he couldn’t handle his Jr. teammate.

[Rare White Ape]

Apparently there are two eras of F1.

The one where Senna was driving, and whatever era it is today on this particular day.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Don’t know how one’d define an era, but yeah, to me, the period Senna was driving was definitely my favorite.

My next favorite was the Hamilton period.

I was never that impressed with the Schumacher and Vettel periods. Not sure what I have against the Germans… :p

Max obviously is a rare talent. However, it’d be a super boring era if he continues to have slower teammates and the best car… maybe these are the same reasons why I wasn’t too impressed with those Germans?

[JoeW]

Williams looking good this weekend. Hoping they start crawling toward the top.

I must say I’m impressed with the overall reliability of the teams. So many laps of high rpm usage and generally very few explosions.

I think it’s interesting that Toto is giving Max grief for wanting to go back to full ICE. Max saying basically what we all want…V8/V10 and smaller lighter cars. But, because he’s Max, all of a sudden it’s a terrible idea. Toto seems to want more electric power. Which I find odd.

[Kchrpm]

I think anyone in management, especially for a manufacturer sponsored team, is going to speak with the desires of the manufacturers in mind, and the manufacturers need electricity to help justify their involvement and investment. Max doesn't think/worry about that bigger picture because he doesn't have to.

Would full ICE vehicles make for a better show? Probably. Would the engine manufacturers be as enthusiastic to be involved? Seems like no, since they seem to be pushing for hybrid tech in multiple series around the world (IndyCar is getting close, NASCAR has it on the horizon).

[Crazed_Insanity]

If they can really develop their carbon neutral fuel, I don’t see any reason why they can’t go back to full ICE.

Otherwise, yeah, it doesn’t make sense to get rid of electric power at this stage…

[JoeW]

Carbon neutral is just a catchphrase. If it were carbon free then I’d be impressed :)

But I get it of course. The future isn’t screaming V8s. And today’s kids are likely to be more impressed by how much power can be had from certain batteries and motors than some old Dino burning ICEs.

I’m getting old and waxing nostalgic.

[Rare White Ape]

I’d love to see 1.5 L V12s paired up with electric power. Sadly a V6 turbo is much better on the efficiency equation.

[XHawkeye]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fz3elsbWYAIzMOK.jpg

[Crazed_Insanity]

Wow! It used to be an airport/ air base?

Anyway, is Williams back? Both drivers got so fast in practice. What’s up with that?

[JoeW]

It’s so odd that you can spout some pretty good driver/team history sometimes but then somehow not know Silverstone used to be an airstrip.

[Rare White Ape]

It’s so odd that you can spout some pretty good driver/team history sometimes but then somehow not know Silverstone used to be an airstrip.

It was before the Senna era.

[Crazed_Insanity]

:lol:

Yeah, I don’t know a lot of things about F1 compared to most of you I think, especially anything before Senna! :p

[Crazed_Insanity]

Looks like Mclaren and Williams have some real pace on the high speed tracks?

For a moment I thought Mercedes is becoming the new Mclaren…, but looks like they are improving? At least they got ahead of Williams and Aston Martin for now…

[JoeW]

What an insane front 3 rows for the race. Great qualifying.

[Freude am Fahren]

Williams looking good on another high-speed track. Even Sargent showing some signs of life. I'm liking that.

[JoeW]

Piastri shows up for the first time as well. McLaren looking for big points this weekend.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I think even before today, Piastri had looked better than Ricciardo.

Anyway, hope these English teams will have the race pace too!

Norris is definitely the next Max for Mclaren. I’m wish Norris had gotten pole!

[Crazed_Insanity]

McLaren’s obviously needed more chrome on their cars!

[JoeW]

What great race. Good battles all around. Piastri mildly screwed by the switch from VSC to full SC. Should have been a McLaren 2-3.

[2ndMoparMan]

McLaren made a big jump in preformance this race, but Verstappen isn't gonna be stopped. Race for second now.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I really hope this won’t just be another flash of brilliance by McLaren like the last time Ricciardo won a race…

Also nice to see Williams apparently moving up.

Yeah, felt bad for Piastri. He should’ve been on podium. Felt really bad for Sainz. What happened? Make a mistake and then a whole train of people pass you by?!?!?

Lastly, Nico needs better breaks… he’s been so fast in qualifying on multiple occasions but so far not much race results to show…

[G'day Mate]

Max further extends his lead in the Constructors' Championship ...

[JoeW]

I am super curious if any teams make any mid season changes.

[G'day Mate]

They'd better, or else Dudley's favourite piece of F1 trivia will get undone!

[Crazed_Insanity]

I am super curious if any teams make any mid season changes.
What do you mean? I thought they continue to make changes?

At least we can now see the sidepods of Mercedes and Ferrari have changed excepte that they couldn’t copy the RB design as well as the English teams for some reason.

[G'day Mate]

I think he means driver changes

[Crazed_Insanity]

Oh, then again, of course it’s been done and end up causing a lot of problems in our fantasy league! :p

[JoeW]

Of course they make car changes you ding dong :) Talkin bout drivers.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Anyways, what driver changes do you have in mind?

At this point, besides RB, I’m really not sure which team I’d want to join. For example initially I thought Lando should get the hell away from Mclaren, but now I’m not so sure.

Especially if you’re young, might as well stay put.

As for somebody like Leclerc, I really had no idea where he could go.

Perez has seriously imploded like the Titan sub. However, I doubt he’ll be replaced by someone like Lando or Leclerc… probably not even Ricciardo.

[FaultyMario]

DR has benched Devries at AT.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Kind of a step backwards for Ricciardo? However, that's probably RB's way of making him pay for his disloyalty? I hope he'll eventually replace the Mexican next season.

Perez's implosion was really too bad. I thought he'd be a much better #2 than Bottas based on earlier performance, but now it appears he has totally cracked under pressure?

Lastly, are there no more young RB drivers in the pipeline?

[JoeW]

I’m sure if he performs well then it may be a step to replacing Perez.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Yeah, probably a way for RB to make sure if Ricciardo still has it before dumping Perez?

Now, it'd really suck if Ricciardo has totally lost it and ended up scoring fewer points than Yuki. I suppose then Yiki's stock might rise and Ricciardo will likely retire.

I hope that doesn't happen because I really like Ricciardo. There's no other F-1 driver, probably not ever will be another one, who looks so much like a :D emoji. I really like him and hope that he'll be the one to give Max hell.

Or Horner could hire Lando. That'd be cool too. ;)

[JoeW]

Apparently Ric did a tire test in the RB19 after the Silverstone race and posted a time that would have put him on the front row. I think that was the decider.

[Yobbo NZ]

....In dry favourable conditions.

[FaultyMario]

... in a RB19.


Joking aside, everyone knows this move has everything to do with the second Red Bull seat, and nothing to do with the Alpha Tauri lead drive.

[JoeW]

Yep

[Blerpa]

Or Horner could hire Lando. That'd be cool too. ;)

Norris is under Toto Wolff's management and in the Mercedes bubble since 2019. Probably the Hamilton' substitute when Lewis will retire.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Yeah, even without Toto, such fantasy match would still be totally impossible probably… :p

[G'day Mate]

Ooh! Now we're just one French mishap away from having three Australians on the grid for the first time since 1965!

[G'day Mate]

Oh, and Dudley's favourite piece of trivia has come true again

[G'day Mate]

From the F1 2016 thread ...


It's the time of year I get to use my favourite bit of trivia.

F1 has literally never had a season where the same drivers entered every race. The nearest we came was 2008 when there were no driver changes but Super Aguri didn't enter all the races.

Today's news re:Alonso means of course that we're waiting at least a year for another chance.

I will note that since this was said we've had the 2019 season where the drivers did not change but Gasly and Albon swapped seats, and 2018 where Force India did some kind of weird shimmy. I think instead we have to say ...

"F1 has never had a season were all the same drivers lined up for all the same teams in every race".

[Rare White Ape]

That’s a cool piece of trivia.

[JoeW]

I don’t think RBR is going to be the attractive option in a couple years when the rules change again. Kinda like when George got that dream Mercedes ride that turned out to be a couple years too late. The RBR job is going to be the same.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Unless Adrian Newey retires, I think it’s going to dominate in the foreseeable future.

Why? Because I think thus far, ever since Gordon Murray’s super dominant MacLarens in the late 1980’s, it’s basically been mostly a battle between Adrian Newey cars vs Ross Brawn cars.

It’s now pretty clear that Toto had been riding on Brawn’s coattail all these years.

We need a new Brawn or new Newey from behind the scenes, otherwise I’m not sure there’s a designer capable of building cars that can defeat Newey.

[JoeW]

The Honda is leaving and Ford is arriving. This can not be good for RBR.

And by then, if RBR is somehow still doing well in spite of the system being designed to prevent it, Newey will have zero wind tunnel time and there is no way to stay on top like that.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Based in m AT’s performance, I’d say power isn’t the key to RB’s success? Ford will only help with money. Now RB knows how to make engines, maybe Newey will help make more aerodynamic engines and make their cars even faster! :p

Outside of RB, it doesn’t appear to be anyone capable to rivaling Newey like Brawn.

I think whoever designed the Ferrari bath tub certainly has potential to be the next Newey, but he appears to not be very high up to keep the team cohesive enough to keep things together.

Other than that, there were no other standout designs capable of matching RB.

Unless Newey retires, I think he’ll be hard to beat no matter how rule changes… unless rules effectively ends all aero effects! ;)

Toto really had been resting on the laurels Brawn left him, at least that’s what it looks like to me. Once the rules changed and the solid foundations ripped out, they’re having a hard time building their new foundation.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Weird results from 1st couple of practices.

I was gonna say they should just fire Perez and let Ricciardo take over. Perez really looks like he has cracked under pressure? He was looking so good before...

Anyway, even with all the weird results, 2nd practice has shown that Yuki has thoroughly kicked Ricciardo's ass! :eek:

It'll be sad if Ricciardo ends his career in an AT like this. Hope he can it around later on during the weekend.

[CudaMan]

Billi Marko already calling for Ricciardo's head. :lol:

I really wonder what's going on with Sergio. He's usually been a fairly consistent racer.

[JoeW]

1st day in a car he’s never driven. I think we can cut him some slack :) Yuki has been driving this car for years. I’d be really surprised if Danny beat him these first few races. And he doesn’t want to push too hard and crash it either.

Perez is under extreme pressure right now from everywhere. If he doesn’t finish P2 in every race then it’s considered a failure. And he’s been nowhere near Max over the last several races. And then he goes to Hungary and bins it on the first lap…yikes.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Billi Marko already calling for Ricciardo's head. :lol:

I really wonder what's going on with Sergio. He's usually been a fairly consistent racer.

I don't want Ricciardo's head! I want him to succeed!!! Anyway, yeah, these 2 practices are obviously not typical, but I really was expecting Ricciardo to be way ahead of Yuki...

As for Perez, there must be something else going on in his life. We all know and I'm sure even he knows he should be way better that whatever he's doing now. So very odd.

[FaultyMario]

I really wonder what's going on with Sergio. He's usually been a fairly consistent racer.

Of his recent bad streak, half were his mistakes, half were the team's.

IMHO.

[Crazed_Insanity]

The streak is running too long though… eventually somebody will be axed. Between a championship winning team and Perez, it’s easy to guess which one will be axed even if the streak was 100% team’s fault!

[FaultyMario]

Good showing from the Saubers!

A win for McLaren if they play their cards right.

[JoeW]

Yeah unbelievable pace by Alfa. Seriously…I don’t believe it :)

Took half the season but Merc is back. Team Papaya looking fab as well.

Aston falling back as the season trudges on.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Wow! What a thrilling Q!

Glad to see Ham back on top! Old Mercedes is back?

Glad to see Ricciardo ahead of Yuki as expected.

Ferrari is now the new Mercedes? Couldn’t beat the Saubers and the Haas? When the B teams are running around you clearly there are some missed potentials. So sad.

[Crazed_Insanity]

https://youtu.be/YTtxA9r4w88

It’s amazing FIA can do something like this now…

It’s also amazing that they couldn’t use the same data to quickly and automatically tell if somebody went out of bound and warn/penalize drivers in real time?

Anyway, this is still a pretty cool replay.

[Rare White Ape]

Obligatory Straya post:

Daniel Ricciardo hasn’t raced an F1 car in 8 or 9 months and has qualified almost 1 second faster than his team mate.

[FaultyMario]

Oficially, it's by 13 one thousands of a second.