2023 Formula One World Championship

[FaultyMario]

Alfa Romeo Team Orlean - 24 Zhou / 77 Bottas - Launch date TK / Car name TK

Scuderia Alpha Tauri - 21 de Vries / 22 Tsunoda - Launch date F11/ Car name AT04

BWT Alpine F1 - 10 Gasly / 31 Ocon - Launch date F16 / Car name A523

Aston Martin Aramco Cognizant F1 - 14 Alonso / 18 Stroll - Launch date F13 / Car name AMR23

Scuderia Ferrari - 16 Leclerc / 55 Sainz - Launch date F14 / Car name TK

Money Gram Haas F1 - 20 Magnussen / 27 Hulkenberg - Launch date TK / Car name VF-23

Mclaren F1 - 4 Norris / 81 Piastri - Launch date F13 / Car name TK

Mercedes AMG - 44 Hamilton / 63 Russell - Launch date F15 / Car name W14

Oracle Red Bull - 1 Verstappen / 11 Perez - Paint date F3 / Car name TK

Williams - 2 Sargeant / 23 Albon - Launch date F6 / Car name TK

[FaultyMario]

The names of the teams are the official entries, right? Williams can't change to Gulf Racing Williams or something like that, or can they?

[Crazed_Insanity]

Avacado should sponsor Haas! Haas avacado sounds way better than money gram…

Oracle Red Bull sounds kinda stupid too!

[XHawkeye]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FnUj6kxXkAUlK78.jpg

#F1 suspension has evolved massively over the years. Especially how the spring/dampers are mechanically operated. From the Sixties till Today, I’ve drawn up a normalised & simplified set up to show the major variations over the years. /long thread... #F1 #techTalk (https://twitter.com/ScarbsTech/status/1618251526946029568)

[FaultyMario]

New Haas Livery:

https://www.racefans.net/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/racefansdotnet-21-01-31-14-04-19-7-1536x864.jpg

https://www.racefans.net/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/racefansdotnet-21-01-31-14-04-07-12-1536x864.jpg

[JoeW]

Cool.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I wish Kmart still exists! ;)

Looks good! :up:

[Kchrpm]

Now that you mention K-mart, it does remind me of the 90s Newman-Haas cars.

https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/c_fill,f_auto,fl_progressive,g_center,h_675,pg_1,q _80,w_1200/81379bc54f18b1bd9d3b6e4ad67f44e3.png

[Crazed_Insanity]

My all time favorite F1 car is Senna's red/white McLaren Hondas... doesn't matter which version as long as it comes with a yellow helmet. :p

My all time favorite Indycar has gotta be this black and white Kmart car. Not just because of Michael Andretti, but also because of Nigel Mansell.

IMHO, neither series has ever peaked again, but at least F1 still holds my interest. I kinda wish 2022 didn't change rules so that the fight between Hamilton and Max could continue on for one more year! 2021 was probably the most exciting season... but I wish the battle could be longer and with less controversies...

Anyway, I really don't understand why couldn't Haas and Andretti just combine resources so that they can become more competitive? Do they not like each other or something?

Even if Andretti's bid were successful, there'll for sure be a long learning curve. They might becoming faster than Haas with a works engine, but there's no guarantee that they'll be able to do better than Toyota. It'd be really stupid to end up with 2 US teams running at the back of the pack...

[FaultyMario]

Now that you mention K-mart, it does remind me of the 90s Newman-Haas cars.

https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/c_fill,f_auto,fl_progressive,g_center,h_675,pg_1,q _80,w_1200/81379bc54f18b1bd9d3b6e4ad67f44e3.png

Yes, please.

[Rare White Ape]

2012 Penske IndyCar :shrug:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FnznjHCaAAASPPE?format=jpg&name=large

[Kchrpm]

Oh yeah, that's even closer. That one wasn't important to my childhood, so I never think about it.

[FaultyMario]

If so-called heritage brands get to appropriate British Racing Green, then 'murrican teams should have mandatory Cunningham stripes.

It's only fair, right?

[Blerpa]

Ford to supply F1 engines to Red Bull from 2026 and onward.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Honda, Porsche, now Ford?!?!?

RB going full circle…

Anyway, most likely Ford is just buying the rights to put a ford sticker on the car?

[FaultyMario]

Ford to supply F1 engines to Red Bull from 2026 and onward.

LOL.

I believe RB RBPTH001 has more wins than any Ford branded engine. Discounting the Cosworth DFV, of course.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Well, Ford and Cosworth go hand in hand of course! :p

They are at all times #3 spot behind Ferrari and Mercedes!

[Kchrpm]

Yeah, to me "Ford" I presume just means Cosworth or similar, with Ford money.

[Blerpa]

Ford to me in F1 IS Cosworth, nothing else.

[JoeW]

Max should retire or move before then.

[Rare White Ape]

Ford to me in F1 IS Cosworth, nothing else.

Cosworth is its own thing now, is it not?

They do engines and electrical components for all sorts of manufacturers now.

[FaultyMario]

I think they always were, only that they hit gold in the sixties with all the support they got from Hank the Deuce.

Anyway, tonight (GMT) is the RB livery launch.

I'm growing more convinced that Liberty should just get all the teams together and do an Oscars type event, closer to the start of preseason testing so that all the DTS fans go all oooh aaah over the newness and buy a lot of shit and the teams all get very rich and we old geezers can have some comfort in a few more noisy cars going around in circles for a few more years.

[JoeW]

But the most convoluted circles ever.

[JoeW]

Not sure if the RBR reveal was cut and paste from last year.

[FaultyMario]

Consequences of the budget fine.

(I'm joking!!)

[JoeW]

Might be some serious truth in there :)

[JoeW]

I will say the blue oval will clash with the current color scheme...going to have to spend some money on a redesign at some point.

[Crazed_Insanity]

What's there to clash? Just use white oval and white text should work, right?

So I guess Ford has beaten Porsche and GM to get on the F1 grid come 2026...

[Rare White Ape]

So is this deal just the former Honda engine department, now owned by Red Bull and rebadged as Ford?

I’ve been seeing hyperbolic headlines pointing out that Ford succeeded where Porsche failed, but it seems to me like Porsche wanted full control over engine development.

[Blerpa]

Porsche wanted full control over the team, more or less. Red Bull said "Fuck that noise".
Exactly the same reply Audi got from Mclaren.

Ford will probably badge the former Honda Engine dept. now Red Bull bla bla. Alpha Tauri as well.
That leaves me wonder... what will Honda do in 2026 since they have joined the F1 2026 rules as one of six engine manufacturers?

Mercedes will keep being Mercedes.
Red Bull and Alpha Tauri will be with Ford badged engines.
Sauber will become Audi F1 team with, duh, Audi engines.
Ferrari will be as always Ferrari. Haas still a satellite team?
Mclaren most probably will keep being Mercedes - surely not going to be Honda again. And a stern no to Audi would be followed by a stern no to Porsche in case they would want to buy them.
Alpine will keep being Alpine (Renault). Are they going to find a new satellite team or being alone again?

What about Aston Martin and Williams? Still Mercedes powered?
Andretti albeit having Cadillac as a sponsor won't be powered by a Cadillac engine... so who would be up to the task? Ferrari? Alpine? Honda because of their Indycar ties?

[Kchrpm]

Like all powerful Cadillacs, it will have a Corvette engine.

[FaultyMario]

Two of the five teams will be granted their spots for 2026, right?

That's 12 teams for Merc, Ferrari, Alpine, Honda, Audi and Ford.


Sure things:

Ferrari PU -> Ferrari
Ford PU -> RBR & AT
Renault PU -> Alpine and Andretti
VAG PU -> Audi (Team Hinwil)
Mercedes -> Mercedes

McLaren will probably stay Merc (the recent Mick Schu deal seems to hint at long term relations between the 2).
I don't see Haas breaking away from their lucrative (in terms of reduced costs) deal with Ferrari.

That leaves Williams, Aston and the other new team getting the 2 Honda and 1 VAG power units.

[FaultyMario]

I don't see AMR racing with Porsche branded engines. So Honda for them? Williams-Porsche?

That would mean the new entry would be one by backed by Honda... Who could it be?

What does Honda want to sell? - my take: Honda doesn't have Hyper-luxury vehicles, but they have a high-margin product in the medium-run Minijet.

Who are the 5 proposed entries? - So far we know of Andretti and the Mazepin-linked team. I'm sure one of them must be Chinese and the other a Saudi venture, because McLaren is Bahraini-owned and there's also a big Qatari stake in one of the other teams. So, of the major oil producers, the Saudis are the ones who want in on F1, big time. And because of the automotive trade war, the Chinese would want global brand recognition.

So maybe Williams-Honda and the new entry being a Chinese-VAG namecarrier? What's the most elitist brand from SAIC?

[Crazed_Insanity]

Sounds like both Porsche and Honda want their own teams, but seems unlikely they’ll allow for new teams…

So that leaves Haas and Williams and perhaps even Lance Stroll’s dad, who may be willing sell their controlling interests…

If Andretti does make it with GM, I suspect they’ll have a Cadillac engine powered by Chevy/Ilmor/Mercedes? Could be a rebadged Honda as well.

[FaultyMario]

Sounds like both Porsche and Honda want their own teams, but seems unlikely they’ll allow for new teams…


Dude, the FIA has announced they are reviewing proposals from 5 entrants. Journos have speculated that 2 will be granted "limited" entry. So, probably something like "new entries will pay anti-dilution fees but will not be able to receive prize money in their first three years of competition".

Porsche will come in as technical partner or power unit provider. The Volkswagen-Audi Group team is Sauber, they just bought it, similarly to when BMW bought it. This will be the last year for Alfa Romeo.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Of course I have no idea what will really happen, just sounds like FIA is cool with Andretti Cadillac but not the existing f1 teams due to dilution or whatever…

Hard to say what will really happen until it happens.

I just think Honda might be itching to win on their own and obviously Porsche looks like they want to go all in as well. Also, regardless of politics, buying existing teams will also be a lot easier than starting from scratch.

I’d rather see Williams and Haas becoming more competitive instead of seeing more of these slow teams…

[FaultyMario]

I was expecting the Anheuser branding to be more prominent now that Williams lost the Latifi foods logos. I hope they can change to different beer brands in different markets.

https://cdn.sanity.io/images/fnx611yr/production/819cf900eccf1869874bc31c3d4e67bc12aec696-3004x1689.jpg

[Crazed_Insanity]

At least the overall shape looks much better than before!

[Tom Servo]

I thought it said Doritos Ventures, and now my disappointment is immeasurable and my day is ruined.

EDIT: Also, imagine having Gulf sponsorship and not just painting the whole damn thing in Gulf colors and being immediately the most popular car on the grid. What in the hell.

[Freude am Fahren]

I was expecting the Anheuser branding to be more prominent now that Williams lost the Latifi foods logos. I hope they can change to different beer brands in different markets.

I thought alcohol branding was banned in F1?

As for Gulf, I read they are planning another full car livery for one race, like McLaren did. I'm guessing Williams would like more money for the full livery full time though.

[FaultyMario]

I think it's only for some markets.

I seem to recall Estrella Galicia (changed to the 0,0 variety in certain markets) in Sainz's car.

[Crazed_Insanity]

https://storage.googleapis.com/the-race-com.appspot.com/1/2023/02/C42-vs-c43-side.jpg

Everyone is beginning to look a lot like Red Bulls!

[Rare White Ape]

Here’s a good look at the new Alfa Romeo.


https://youtu.be/3hsh-UUXPzs

[FaultyMario]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fo3lBwFXEA0KhyK.jpg

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fo3t65PXwAEx6II.jpg

[Freude am Fahren]

Designs are definitely converging quickly after 1 year of the new rules.

The underbite of the sidepods' intakes seems to be pretty popular now, after being probably the most talked about thing on the Red Bull this time last year.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Pretty sure Mercedes won’t continue to stick to their ugly no sidepods design… I do hope Ferrari will continue to stick with their design and then blow everyone away by having better strategies and better reliability…

[FaultyMario]

https://www.racefans.net/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/Screenshot-2023-02-14-11.02.21-1536x864.png

New Fezza, now on track.

[Crazed_Insanity]

OK, cool. That doesn't look like a Red Bull.

[FaultyMario]

These fake launches are stupid.

Just make the shakedown another F1 weekend already, I'm quite sure the Bahrainis would love to sportwash their regime with some Funky Friday Night and some Daylight Running of the Cars.

[FaultyMario]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fo__NroXgAA_4bC.jpg

Yeah, so Mercedes decided they would bring a Penske Champcar to this year's fight.

[CudaMan]

It's certainly an improvement in the looks department!

I bet they will have learned well from 2022, too.

[JoeW]

Man I hope it takes Mercedes one more year to get to the top. I really would like to see Ferrari get one this year.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Have to wonder how real are these reveals... If accurate, then it looks like Mercedes remains committed to it's tiny sidepod concept as well as Ferrari remains committed to its bulging concaving sidepods... whereas everyone else pretty much just copies the RB design.

I really think Mercedes design was flawed. If only Ferrari design could be combined with Mercedes reliability, pretty sure RB might not be able to defend its title last year...

Anyway, hope Mercedes has really solved its' unanticipated design problems and hope Ferrari's reorg has solved it's stepping on it's own toes problems...

[FaultyMario]

The clever camera angle obscures any fundamentally (https://twitter.com/i/status/1625929217836711954)new features.

But the W14 does look different from the previous car.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FpAlXpvXwAANxDp.jpg

Although I'm not sure it's all this different:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FpACOl-X0AAfuGm.jpg

[JoeW]

RB will be 2 or 3 this year. Unless Max does some more crazy hero shit again. But I think the other two teams will beat them this year.

[FaultyMario]

i did not see any hero shit last year, from him, in a car capable of multiple grand-chelems.

My 0.02.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I tend to agree. Max was definitely the hero 1st time, but last year, he was fighting against zeros from Mercedes and Ferrari.

Anyway, just hoping those top 3 teams will now have more comparable performances and reliabilities so that we can have tighter racing.

[JoeW]

I said more. I didn’t say last year was full of hero shit. Although overall I still say Ferrari had a better car last year. They just had a ton of mistakes on and off track which allowed RBR to catch up, take a lead and extend the lead. Ferrari just kept on fucking up all season on and off track. If Ferrari had as few mistakes as RBR I think the results would have been a bit different.

But we have definitely seen that Max is the difference maker on the RBR team.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Max is definitely the stronger teammate, but I think Perez might be able to win the championship for RB without Max in 2022… Both Mercedes and Ferrari were simply not 100% there…

[XHawkeye]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FpJ6BajaUAcDh_x.jpg

[FaultyMario]

In the case of the Mercedes, a lot of the "black" really isn't, it's uncoated CF, for weight savings. I wonder if it's the same for all the rest of the other 9 black teams.

[Blerpa]

Same in Ferrari, at least.

[JoeW]

I mean wtf. Teams want the weight regs to go down but they can’t find a few grams to add paint?

[Blerpa]

Alpine: We will provide Andretti-Cadillac with powertrain (https://www.grandprix247.com/2023/02/17/alpine-we-will-provide-andretti-cadillac-with-powertrain/)

[Rare White Ape]

I mean wtf. Teams want the weight regs to go down but they can’t find a few grams to add paint?

I believe they're having trouble achieving the minimum weight limit. Hence the weight savings on the liveries.

Plus it is weight saved on the outer surface of the cars, which is as far away from the centre of gravity as you can physically get.

The question for me now becomes, how long before teams start using coloured dye in the epoxy that binds the carbon weave? That would look SO cool.

[Yobbo NZ]

It'll likely be Renault powered, rebadged as Cadillac.

Ahem ��
No idea how to pull a quote from another topic on mobile sorry.

[Crazed_Insanity]

You’re just missing a [?

Renault can definitely use another team to help test and perhaps also generate more income? However, not sure what GM can get out of this partnership?

[Yobbo NZ]

You’re just missing a [?

Renault can definitely use another team to help test and perhaps also generate more income? However, not sure what GM can get out of this partnership?

Sorted thanks. Wasn't sure if that'd work 👍

[Kchrpm]

However, not sure what GM can get out of this partnership?

Their logo and commercials involved in the most popular international racing series and the Netflix docuseries that is helping it grow in their main market without having to make a major technical investment.

[Crazed_Insanity]

That’s true, but if you’re buying something, wouldn’t you want the most for your money? Renault is clearly not the front runner at the moment. Unless Renault engines are the only ones for sale at the moment?

[Kchrpm]

Oh, the specific choice of Renault? Yeah, I would assume it's because they're the ones willing to do it. Most of the grid/manufacturers seem to be against having them join with the way things are currently, Renault might be the best ones who were willing to deal.

[JoeW]

Nowhere to watch testing over here. Seems like in previous years in Spain we could watch it somewhere…maybe I’m remembering wrong. It also seems like in previous years that there were at least two weeks in between testing and the first race in case they need to fix something.

[Kchrpm]

It's on F1 TV Pro. I got it last year since I don't have cable and it's a convenient way to watch all the races, and it's still going since it seems it was for a year and not for the season. I'll let it renew, and other than the lack of an Android TV app I will wish that IMSA and IndyCar did the same thing.

[Kchrpm]

(With the caveat that having a premium service delivered by YouTube would probably be more convenient, fingers crossed that they will handle Sunday Ticket so well that others will try to copy it)

[Crazed_Insanity]

What the heck! Everyone else's doing about 50~80 laps, but freaking Max 157 laps?!?!?

Maybe I don't have to read into that too much because RB only ran Max and nobody else?

[JoeW]

Yeah...he ran all day. I assume Perez will run all day tomorrow.

[FaultyMario]

First impressions from testing.

RB19, car to beat.
Ferrari, sandbagging, but car still looks edgy, still crude around the edges.
Merc, car looks planted, like in their heyday.
Alpine, don't know how to properly express it, but it seems like they're doing it differently.
Macca, looks midfieldish. I mean, even if the new car has devil horns, nothing about it says "We've made this our hill and we will die on it", like the heritage of both Bruce and Ron would suggest.
Alfa, it looks fast. I hope they've ironed out their reliability kinks, cause a fast car can cause damage to the opposition early in the season.
AMR, hopefully last year's RB is still fast and reliable even if it's lost its dominance ;)
Haas, ouch. I'm not liking what I'm seeing.
AT, somehow they managed to make a copy of their sister team's previous car that looks less like it than the Aston.
Williams, Did they even bother to bring a new car? That's last year's!

[FaultyMario]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FpozvRDWcAAgeuf.jpg

[FaultyMario]

We had a good day today, we completed a lot of laps which is what we wanted, it was also a smooth day; we barely had any issues and we could really focus on the car and try a few things. We had a lot of good running throughout the day when it was hot and sunny and also in the evening which is more representative.

FFFF

[JoeW]

FFFF? Tried searching that but there were several different meanings online in the various slang dictionaries ;)

[FaultyMario]

Horner's smile today was ominous.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Day 2 is interesting. Asian dude tops the chart! Beating Max! :D

Ferrari and Mercedes must be sandbagging because all of their B-teams are way ahead of them!

I'm a bit more worried for Mercedes because they seems to still bet on their tiny sidepod design, which even Williams has abandoned... Also, all of those B-teams seemed to have copied RB designs...

Anyway, can't wait to see the 1st race...

[JoeW]

Mick Shumacher episode of DTS is pretty brutal.

“He’s asking about the brakes but he’s going so slow he doesn’t need them”.

[FaultyMario]

Ferrari could be faster than the Red Bulls.

BUT

They certainly eat their tires faster.

[Alan P]

Aston Martin have apparently made a big step. I wonder if a Drugovich points finish might be a canny bet? Stroll's wrist is apparently in plaster.

[FaultyMario]

Do we not want a podium for Seb on his 300th GP start?

[JoeW]

Alpha Tauri reportedly up for sale due to it being too expensive to maintain by the new RB sporting boss.

[Kchrpm]

So can Andretti/GM/Renault figure this out?

[FaultyMario]

Alpha Tauri reportedly up for sale due to it being too expensive to maintain by the new RB sporting boss.

Helmut has already quashed those rumors.

So, it's already sold? :lol:

[JoeW]

Something I read from a likely unqualified source.

[G'day Mate]

Are we doing GTXFFFFFF1 this year?

[Kchrpm]

If someone picks the values, I'll set it up.

[FaultyMario]

Oh shoot!

I will. Gimme a couple of days.

[FaultyMario]

Something I read from a likely unqualified source.

No, no. The leak came out of Germany.

I'm sensing trouble in paradise in the aftermath of Mateschitz's demise.

Edit: I mean, not wanting to sound blasphemous, but RBR is kind of like the Williams of yesteryear.

Back then it was Frank's 50 + Patrick's 50 +/- Adrian's genius.

But at RBR , you have this racer at heart (Dieter), plus a good financials and operations director (Horner), plus the creative genius (Newey), owning a third of the company each. So RBR is secure, but, with the new overseer of RB Motorsports, Alpha Tauri is indeed kind of a liability for the whole program*.

AT does not make sense financially, but to a racer at heart it is a great little team, and it helps a lot in the operations of RBR. Speculating, I'd venture and say that it also helps Newey train junior aerodynamicists; so, when Mateschitz was alive AT's existence had 6 out of 6 votes. Nowadays I'd say the new guy is against it (0/2) and both Horner and Newey could be swung either way (that's 2 out of 4 votes), so it must be only Dr. Marko fighting to keep AT as part of the RB machine.

_____
* It includes rallying, MTX, race bikes, boats and all sorts of general hooniganism that helps them sell sugary water.

[FaultyMario]

Do we not want a podium for Seb on his 300th GP start?


Reserve driver Felipe Drugovich has done two half-days in the team’s AMR23 and is one option for the team should Stroll be unavailable. The team’s other reserve driver is Stoffel Vandoorne, who was unable to participate in testing as he was competing in a Formula E round in South Africa.

Krack said either of those drivers could be the “Plan B” for Aston Martin. “We have some plan Bs, but we have to decide the plan B when the plan A is not possible. It is something that we will have to discuss in the next days.”

Asked whether recalling Vettel, who spent two seasons with Aston Martin before his retirement, was an option for the team, Krack said: “The plan B, we said already, that we will speak about next week.”

Krack would not confirm whether Vettel expressed an interest in returning. “I have had a couple of phone calls with Sebastian,” he admitted, “but this has been also last year, and this will continue in the future.”

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fkocc-_WYAEjMx6.jpg

[Crazed_Insanity]

Certainly would be nice to see Vettel kick Alonso’s ass! ;)

[JoeW]

Drugovich confirmed so stop getting all excited.

[JoeW]

I know most of you aren’t Alonso fans but if that car has made a leap, like many say it has, he is going to be stealing a lot of points this year.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Yeah, Force India has done a good copying job before, maybe they can do it again? Combining the strength of Mercedes PU and performance of RB car and the experiences of old ex-Ferrari drivers who couldn't win championships for them... :D

It'd be awesome if we could really get Alonso and Vettel to get together in the same car though.

[FaultyMario]

If the car is good Alonso's presence has jinxed it.

Everything from poor reliability to a Godzilla attack.

[Alan P]

Oh shoot!

I will. Gimme a couple of days.

Budget $40m. Max verstappen, $40,000,001

[FaultyMario]

:finger:

[FaultyMario]

Budget $40m. Max verstappen, $40,000,001

:lol:<- But I didn't do it on purpose, I swear! It's his fault for mopping the floor with all his teammates!!

[JoeW]

I think we are in for a really interesting season.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Wonder if AM can continue to stay ahead of Mercedes come qualifying and race... if so, looks like Mercedes powered RB chassis is the car to beat? :D

Sad to see Honda powered AT and Williams lagging significantly behind. Most teams seemed to be getting very close to each other.

Hulk put Haas so close to the front is pretty amazing...

Interesting season indeed! However, wasn't expecting AM to be the front running Mercedes powered cars...

[FaultyMario]

I like this time slot for a GP, actually.

[Kchrpm]

https://www.espn.co.uk/f1/story/_/id/35783166/toto-wolff-admits-mercedes-change-car-design-concept

Awesome. Great job guys :rolleyes:

[Crazed_Insanity]

I think Mercedes no side pods design for sure would yield the least drag, but I think it’s obvious other teams’s sidepods are probably also producing additional downforce in order to go faster on high speed turns.

If AM copied Ferrari design, perhaps they’ll be able to really fight for pole today?

As of now, this B team is obviously as fast as factory team, if not faster.

Too bad Vettel missed out on this…

[JoeW]

What a great start. Cars are much closer. I think this season is going to be close.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Yes, it’s gonna be close, but no cigar advertising! :p

[JoeW]

Well I am excited to see this season unfold. Lots of great racing today with some results that I am happy to see from previously slow teams. I see lots of potential for a great season.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Just watched the highlights…

RB clearly is in league of its own. Ferrari probably still fastest of rest, but change of management clearly didn’t help its reliability. Plus, Leclerc was saying they weren’t sure how they unlocked performance during qualifying? :lol:

Anyway, looks like AM/Alonso is for real. So this maybe a great season between Alonso and Hamilton… they’re almost like teammates again? Maybe with few scores to settle…

Highlights didn’t show much of Hulk and what the heck happened to Mclaren… it’s good Ricciardo left I suppose.

[JoeW]

Toto with the drama...finishing what, 4th and 6th, and talking about scrapping the whole concept because it's sooo terrible. Oh cry me a river. Dudes almost could have podiumed....nearly every other team on the grid would kill for a car that fast.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I think I’d be embarrassed to finish behind AM with Mercedes engines if I were Toto too. Mercedes must’ve thought long and hard whether the scrap and keep on trying with the no pod concept. AM has shown that they made a mistake sticking with the ugly no pod design.

Mercedes will probably be able to out develop AM during the season… if AM finished the season ahead of them, Toto will probably fire himself! ;)

[samoht]

1) Max has checked out. He was cruising, engine in 'eco' mode, just looking after the tyres, half a minute ahead of the next non-Red Bull. The chance of a safety car means there's no point building a big lead - otherwise he'd have lapped the field.

Ferrari and Mercedes are further off Red Bull than they were last year. I see absolutely no reason to believe that anything short of an injury could jeopardise Max's third championship this year.

2) Mercedes have really messed up. I hope they're doing a proper 'Five Whys' rethink about how they've now had two bad winters in a row. As has been said, the fact that seventh-best Aston Martin have managed to buy the back half of Mercedes' car and make a tangibly quicker car out of it really shows how Merc have got it wrong.

3) Ferrari have messed up too, they started last year with a quicker car than Red Bull and threw the championship away with their 'special' strategy, this year they're a chunk behind on race pace.

4) How consistent Aston's pace is remains to be seen, but it's damn impressive. There seems to be a pretty interesting three team battle for the final podium spot behind the two Red Bulls.


What's really sad is that Perez won't give Max a run for it, so it's another Ferrari/Schumacher situation. When Merc were dominant in the early hybrid era, Rosberg single-handedly kept the sport in F1 motorsport.

[JoeW]

Yeah I'm hoping for another dominant Max year or two. Hopefully until the next rules reset in 2026?

I know most hate Fernando but I am loving how fast that dude is at his age. That moves he made today were really quite good. Once he realized he was in a competitive car he really showed the pace. I wish Stroll weren't on that team...would love to see Lando in that car. Not a Stroll fan.

I would love to see AM finish higher than Merc at the end. Would be soooo nice. I thought Sainz would pull some pace out at the end to hold Alonso off but Sainz just folder like a cheap suit. That Ferrari deserves better. And with LeClerc likely needing a new ICE already it's not a good way to start off.

Hoping Hulk and the Haas can show their pace. Alpine looks worse than last year...as far as how they stack up with the rest. AT is still the same. Williams is showing some promise coming out of the basement. McLaren...I am hoping Piastri just shits the bed. The way he handled his whole thing...I hope he flops big time...for the karma. All that BS for a backmarker team...would be nice if Alpine finishes higher than McLaren. Then next year Lando can go somewhere that really wants him. Red Bull maybe? Perez in final year....

[FaultyMario]

Don't you think that Horner/Marko are delighted about Pérez?

14 podiums would make me sign him up for another year.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Yeah, it’d only be Perez’s final year if he challenges Max too much… otherwise how will RB find a better team playing mate?

Of course JoeW was probably implying that Ricciardo might take over soon? Maybe RB will prefer Daniel? Don’t really know the intricacies of their relationships so can’t really say… However, not really sure Ricciardo threatening Max will be good for the team.

[Crazed_Insanity]

What's really sad is that Perez won't give Max a run for it, so it's another Ferrari/Schumacher situation. When Merc were dominant in the early hybrid era, Rosberg single-handedly kept the sport in F1 motorsport.

Yeah, Rosberg has been the faster teammate pretty much the whole time until Hamilton came along. It was nice to see him finally beat Hamilton for once, but obviously he really burnt himself out because of that…

Anyway, Bottas was definitely better for the team. Just as Perez is definitely the better choice for the team. However, Ricciardo would be better for the sport! ;)

[JoeW]

Well just pointing out that Lando will likely be a free agent next year. And he will be very much desired by any team with an opening. And we know Perez is on his last year of his contract. And Lando will likely only want to go to a top team.

I’d take Lando over Perez if I had the choice.

[FaultyMario]

but obviously he really burnt himself out because of that…

Anyway, Bottas was definitely better for the team.

Bottas has come out saying that he almost gave himself anorexia trying to beat Hamilton. His GF also said that he was a better man after his first day working at Sauber.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Yeah, better for the team may not translate into better for self… giving your 110% and still be #2…

If I were Perez, I’d quit RB already. Why bother being #2 to such an ungrateful teammate? Unless he’s aiming to actually beat Max this year?

[Blerpa]

Lando Norris is managed by Toto. Very probably in Mercedes by the time Lewis retires.
Aston Martin will crumble in the long run.
Red Bull have been evolutive and will get to another championship win.
Sainz was a sitting duck AS WELL as overly celebrated Leclerc... only the malfunction of the central unit (substituted just few hours before the race) saved him from being embarassed by Alonso.
Ferrari has no grip on the front and eats tyres like a monster, only good thing to them is a relative high speed in the straights (which saved Sainz from Hamilton).

I don't like Alonso as a personality but I've always been saying he is the best driver in there along with Hamilton and, let's say with a lot of concession, Verstappen - the spaniard did wonderfully.
But so did Stroll as well: I don't like him at all, but he has three podiums and a pole on his F1 belt, he is good in wet conditions, and he drove, battling, a F1 car to a well deserved 6th place - every single one of you would be crying tucked on a couch with both wrists broken meanwhile.

Lewis did what he could, same as Perez.
Russell... was there George? He only whined a bit about Hamilton and then got trumped by both Alonso and Stroll. Easy, Georgie boy.

Kudos to Bottas for a great race.
Same for Gasly, Tsunoda and a decent showing by Williams.
Haas will be Haas, while Mclaren can't go any deeper in the back, so must get down and work hard, surely they have the know-how and capacity to do better than most of the midfield and the backmarkers.

Piastri will bounce back, he was a stalwart person fucking up, legally and deservingly, an arrogant and embarassing manufacturer.
Companies know no honour, so big ups to any individual that exploits and beats them at their own shitty game - no wonders they are thinking to get in cohort with Micheal Andretti, cojones go in pair.

[FaultyMario]

Why bother being #2 to such an ungrateful teammate? Unless he’s aiming to actually beat Max this year?

The same reason Kimi stuck around faxing in his GP appearances during his last three years. It's a great job and it pays very well.

I mean, have you seen what WEC and other top series pay? I think the 24H pays like 250,000 USD for the manufacturer teams. The rest of the events pay third or even a quarter of that. Indy must be paying an average of 50k per GP, but only to the top drivers.

[Crazed_Insanity]

The same reason Kimi stuck around faxing in his GP appearances during his last three years. It's a great job and it pays very well.

I mean, have you seen what WEC and other top series pay? I think the 24H pays like 250,000 USD for the manufacturer teams. The rest of the events pay third or even a quarter of that. Indy must be paying an average of 50k per GP, but only to the top drivers.

Of course, not complaining about pay. :p

It’s just how he’s being treated. I’m a big Max fan, but even I felt Perez was being treated unfairly. If I were him, I would either get back at him by trying to beat him or just quit. Of course if I really need the money, I might continue to be the teams good little #2 and take shit from Max. However, not sure Perez really needs the money at this stage of his career?

Anyway, Blerpa has given another insightful and amusing analysis/commentary! :D

[JoeW]

“every single one of you would be crying tucked on a couch with both wrists broken meanwhile.“

I can’t speak for the actual severity of his injury but this statement is a little ridiculous. I’m sure many of us have endured and worked/played through painful injuries before. And if I were motivated by millions of dollars, the top doctors and trainers I’m sure I would find the fortitude to make it happen.

[Crazed_Insanity]

The kid was born with a silverspoon in his mouth. I'm sure he's not really motivated by money.

He probably just want to make sure if AR really is as good as the preseason hype. If it is, he didn't want to miss out on that. Or maybe daddy pushed him. He spent a lot of money on the team and wasn't about to miss out on its success by sitting out of a race! ;)

Seriously, I never like Lance as well. I always thought those sponsored by rich daddies really shouldn't be racing in F1. However, I have to say he has demonstrated that he could run with ex-champs pretty closely... even if they are old! :p

[JoeW]

Oh yeah mad props to him. And honestly his post race interviews are softening my stance on him. Although he was talking a little slow…probably the painkillers kicking in post race :)m

And I really like older happy Alonso. Great on the radio and on the track. One of new faves.

[CudaMan]

Aside from Alonso I think this race was fairly dull. These cars are just so heavy and long and stable. I want to see the drivers challenged more to have to hang on to the cars or wrestle them a little bit. As it's looking now that teams are sorting out this new formula, pretty much a mistake only means braking too late, locking an inside front, and running wide.

Not to be all doom and gloom. I'll keep watching. I just want the new regs coming to make these cars more raw and lively.

Looked like Sainz got a great start off the line but somehow Checo neutralized the run. Almost as if Sainz backed out? I'd have to see the start from Sainz' onboard but he should have gone into turn one in 2nd place based on the start he had I think.

Was not impressed by the new F1TV commentary lineup. They seemed less insightful about what was going on strategy wise, and they talked over team radio broadcasts a lot*. Last year's team was more on top of things as they were unfolding. Maybe I'll have to try the Sky audio feed next time.

Also wish Vettel had a car like this. How cool would it have been for him to be alongside Alonso in the good Aston.

*Everyone loves to hate on Crofty these days but yesterday I really wished to hear a "2 secs Ted" so we could hear a radio broadcast without it being talked over.

[JoeW]

I think we all agree on car regs. Basically full scale slot cars nowadays.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Yeah, that's so true... if it weren't for the AM cars, it would've been a pretty boring show. RBs, followed by Ferrari and then Mercedes. At least these top 3 teams were not really that close...

Hope Perez will up his game and win a championship like Rosberg and then retire in Mexico as a national hero! ;)

[Rare White Ape]

I don’t think we will see them being lively ever again unless they mandate some Skip Barber-spec aero.

F1 is an engineering a sport as much as it is a driving sport, so… it eez what it eez.

[JoeW]

True...now it's about seeing how many Gs we can generate until the drivers pass out.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I just noticed that pole time and the fastest race lap time are 4 seconds apart?!?!? Even the slowest quali time was nearly 2 seconds faster!

Wonder why that is? Mostly because tires? As fuel load drops near the end, tires are shot too? That's why you can't go very fast?

I think they are just babying these tires so much nowadays that's why these races are getting kinda boring?

[Freude am Fahren]

Bahrain is also one of the tougher tracks on tires.

[Blerpa]

Alonso: Stroll is my f@cking hero and my driver of the day (https://www.grandprix247.com/2023/03/08/alonso-stroll-is-my-fcking-hero-and-my-driver-of-the-day-f1-bahrain-gp/)

[Crazed_Insanity]

He almost became a zero had he crashed into Alonso! :D

Still, his actual performance impressed me and I have more respect for him than before. However, I hope his wrists will recover okay and not cause any harmful consequences due to this urgency to race…

He has proven to be able to run very close to old ex champs and has very awesome work ethics. Definitely my current favorite billionaire’s son racer so far! ;) seriously, I think he has earned himself an F1 spot on merit. Having a rich dad obviously won’t hurt either.

[JoeW]

Esteban Ocon to miss Jeddah because he's still serving time penalties in Bahrain.

[Tom Servo]

Lol

[Crazed_Insanity]

wow! Unreal FF2!

Alonso is faster than Checco.

Estaban the laughing stock is faster than Mercedes.

Hulk in a Hass is faster than Ferraris.

Lewis Hamilton is slower than all the above!

Good news for Lando is that he's pretty close to Lewis Hamilton. ;)

If they qualify like that on Saturday, things will definitely be interesting.

[JoeW]

I love the addition of Bernie Collins to the announcing team. She knows her shit.

Also my new favorite team principal is James Vowles. Always a fun interview.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I guess there’s no longer a top 3 team in F1?

Looks like we now only have a top2 and the 2nd team is definitely AM?

Also, nice to see Mclaren got faster at least on this track…

[JoeW]

Should be a fun race tomorrow. Got some grid shuffling going on so that will be fun to watch. I expect Perez to crumble under the pressure...but you never know ;)

[FaultyMario]

Should be a fun race tomorrow. Got some grid shuffling going on so that will be fun to watch. I expect Perez to crumble under the pressure...but you never know ;)

I don't think so, both Perez and Alonso defend better than they attack and George, well, he tends to choke. And so does Carlos. I'd keep an eye on Lance, he is usually a fast starter. However the Aston has a top speed handicap against the Red Bull. I'd expect for Perez to build a gap until his engineers deem it necessary and up to the point when the first SC is deployed. Then the actual race will start.

[JoeW]

Anything is possible. I am talking more along the lines of Perez making a dumb mistake. Sure he'll be fast, right up until he does something stupid. And Alonso will be burning for a win.

But it's all rhetoric. Side note, George continues to be faster than Hamilton in qualifying.

And what's the deal with the Hamilton trainer split? Something is amiss methinks...

[FaultyMario]

I'm not sure if it's the 2022 regs or this track, but the racing is absolute rubbish.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Wow? Max still finished 2nd!?!?!

At least Perez did not move over for him…

[FaultyMario]

Did you see any onboards for either Red Bull? Riddimculous!

[JoeW]

Booooring. I was a little behind the live feed and just started fast forwarding over the last 10 laps or so.

[FaultyMario]

Jos Verstappen is such a salty cunt. Oh god.

Lip readers think this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYjrnULb8ZU)is what Raymond Vermeulen, Max's Manager, told Jos during Perez's celebrations.

[Kchrpm]

Alonso's penalty has been rescinded, his podium finish reinstated: https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.breaking-fernando-alonsos-saudi-arabian-grand-prix-podium-reinstated-after.1QaHGAtZu9W5k6nYsnR1id.html?fbclid=IwAR0n5Qk tXWd2U-YKbGaseoPpz1dGJ_PQ-vkAhi2Rr9hJ1w2g-3iXz24h0ns

[samoht]

After the first race we heard quite a bit about how we'd only seen the cars on one specific track, and other circuits with other characteristics might not place Red Bull so far ahead.

Yet today we had them just as comprehensively outclassing the rest as last time, and the same Spaniard rounding out the podium.

The only difference is that Mercedes seemed faster than Ferrari today.

I watched this race because Max was starting out of position, probably won't bother with many of the rest as it's shaping up to be about as exciting as some of Schumacher's most "vintage" seasons.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Beginning of the race was awesome, but I really don’t understand why they keep on penalizing Alonso.

Was this kind of penalty ever dishes out to anyone in recent history?

Also, the additional 10s penalty, and then never mind…

WTF!?!?!? Who’s making these calls? At least no champion is in the line yet…

[JoeW]

Well if you will jump in your Way Back machine and go allll the way back to last race you will see Ocon getting the exact same penalties. Off his mark at the start and not serving penalty properly in pits…they just rescinded latter because the jack just barely touched the car and there was previous evidence that this has occurred many times before with no penalty.

[FaultyMario]

I can't understand why the Ferraris would drop so much relative performance depending on tire compound.

It's clear RB are the front runners with Aston, Merc and Ferrari in the midfield; yet other midfielders don't have such dramatic swings. On a bad day, they're within striking distance of the Alpines!

[Crazed_Insanity]

Well if you will jump in your Way Back machine and go allll the way back to last race you will see Ocon getting the exact same penalties. Off his mark at the start and not serving penalty properly in pits…they just rescinded latter because the jack just barely touched the car and there was previous evidence that this has occurred many times before with no penalty.

Never paid much attention, especially if it’s Ocon… :p

Race director couldn’t just inform the driver to get back on the mark or just DQ the stupid idiot who doesn’t know how to park his car before dropping green flag?

Just wondering what kid of show they’re trying to put on by giving penalties like that to a race leader…

I suppose this is probably indicative of how unlikeable Alonso really is? ;)

[Rare White Ape]

Well if you will jump in your Way Back machine and go allll the way back to last race you will see Ocon getting the exact same penalties. Off his mark at the start and not serving penalty properly in pits…they just rescinded latter because the jack just barely touched the car and there was previous evidence that this has occurred many times before with no penalty.

Good summary. It's as if you actually read and understood the content in the link that Keef posted.

[JoeW]

I read the F1 site report. As you can see we posted at the exact same time in the GTXFF thread. So no, I did not read his.

[Rare White Ape]

So you read it and understood it.

[JoeW]

I read and understood the content which I discovered independently of said link you referenced earlier.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Did not realize that Perez suffered some brake problem and Max was worried about a repeat of drive shaft failure by just watching the highlights...

Also, it sounded like Ferraris were disadvantaged by the ill timed safety car pit stops? Besides reliability issues or stupid team strategy, I always thought Ferraris are faster than Mercedes...

Anyway, so glad Ricciardo left McLaren at this stage. He probably feels the same. ;) However, feel so bad for Norris. I guess when Ham or ALO retires, Norris should have no problem finding a seat anywhere else.

[JoeW]

I know this is making Perez feel warm and fuzzy like he’s got a shot at the WDC. But it will all be back to normal next week when he’s finishing 30secs behind Max again.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Oh com'on! You predicted Sainz's gonna choke but he at least still finished ahead of his teammate! :p

This was a nice gift from God for Perez. Hope he can keep it up. I am a Max fan, but not when he can run away unchallenged. Perez is the only hope left to make this season interesting. So I hope you'll be wrong again! :p

Anyway, looks like Adrian Newey/RB is back at it again. In the long run, for sure Max will probably be the new Vettel?

Also looks like Ricciardo is back at RB just in time!

[JoeW]

I actually predicted Perez to choke. Which he did, on the start, but his car was fast enough to overcome minor mistakes.

I honestly hope Max dominates for at least a few more years so Hamilton/Merc fans will know how the rest of us felt over the last decade.

[Crazed_Insanity]

OH yeah, sorry, you did say Perez! Somehow I remembered you said something about Sainz... it was way back after the 1st race...



I would love to see AM finish higher than Merc at the end. Would be soooo nice. I thought Sainz would pull some pace out at the end to hold Alonso off but Sainz just folder like a cheap suit. That Ferrari deserves better. And with LeClerc likely needing a new ICE already it's not a good way to start off.


Anyway, I like to root for the underdog more. Like when young Senna fighting Prost... or fighting Mansell in a superior machine... It be boring if Senna were driving Michael's Ferrari or Vettel's RB and Hamilton's Mercedes...

I really hope Perez will rise to the occasion like Rosberg at least for this year. This will be his last chance.

I also hope RB will get Ricciardo or some other driver capable of running with Max. It'd be awesome if Lando can be matched up with Max.

[CudaMan]

Not that I wish harm or misfortune on either Max or Checo but I would love to see Ricciardo do a race in this year's RedBull to see how he does.

I hope Logan sees that his first Q1 lap (which was taken away) was really good. He folded like bad origami after that and he needs some confidence back.

[JoeW]

Yeah rooting for Logan. He’s been quite good in comparison to his teammate.

On the Ricciardo side…does he get chances to drive the car outside of the racing? In the hopes that he could put up some comparison times so they can see how fast he could be?

[Kchrpm]

I honestly hope Max dominates for at least a few more years so Hamilton/Merc fans will know how the rest of us felt over the last decade.

Except with an extremely different person/personality at the center of it. Merc is a big a bland megacorp so who cares, but Lewis used the power he gained in the sport by being an unquestionable talent and success to push against the status quo in personal style/expression and social issues. I don't think Max knows or cares about anything but himself and the bubble he grew up in, which looks just like the established bubble that has surrounded racing for decades (rich white dads get their sons into the sport at a young age with their money and connections).

[Crazed_Insanity]

Okay, I don't care if your dad is black or white, but if you totally dominate everyone else year after year, you end up making the sport boring! :p

So I'm hoping Max won't follow the paths of Schey, Vettel and Hamilton for years to come. Hopefully Checco, Ricardo or whoever else will up their game...

Unless Ricciardo really lost his mojos running at the back of the pack in those other teams for so long, I'm confident he's capable of beating Max in the same car. Likewise with Perez. They just really get into the zone or whatever... I think they could probably beat Max like how Rosberg gave it all to beat Hamilton. These are all very fast drivers!

It would be super awesome to put Hamilton and Max in the same car though... Not really sure how that will go down... ;)

[Tom Servo]

Not that I wish harm or misfortune on either Max or Checo but I would love to see Ricciardo do a race in this year's RedBull to see how he does.

I hope Logan sees that his first Q1 lap (which was taken away) was really good. He folded like bad origami after that and he needs some confidence back.

Yeah, that felt like inexperience in both making the mistake and then doubling down in almost a red-mist fashion.

He's quick, hopefully he'll get there before the team bosses decide they're no longer interested.

[samoht]

I honestly hope Max dominates for at least a few more years so Hamilton/Merc fans will know how the rest of us felt over the last decade.

It isn't the same at all. When have we ever seen a race-long strategic and wheel to wheel tactical battle between Max and Checo, as we did in the third round of 2014 at Bahrain between the two Mercs? When have we ever seen Checo disregard team orders to try and pass Max, as Mark Webber did to Sebastian Vettel at Silverstone? How do you say "not bad for a number 2 driver" in Spanish? When Vettel slid into the gravel trap at a wet Hockenheim, he wasn't just upset at making a mistake, but because that was the point at which a genuine possibility of being WDC slipped away.

Absolutely Merc dominated 2014-16, but there was a genuine race between Lewis and Nico. Yeah it's a contest between only two athletes, but so's a tennis match and plenty of people watch those.


The problem isn't that Red Bull are dominant, the problem is that they're dominant and have a clear lead driver who basically isn't challenged by his team-mate, and therefore isn't challenged by anyone. Compared to Vettel's four WDCs with Red Bull, Checo looks far less of a plausible rival than Mark Webber did.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I think JoeW just want Max to win a bunch of championships to shut people who think Lewis is GOAT up! ;)

Anyway, Checco is for sure no Rosberg, but I think he's might be better than Bottas. Plus, Max has pissed him off enough times to realize it's foolish to stay a good little #2. Further, with Ricciardo's hiring eagerly waiting to replace him... what does he have to lose but to perhaps give it his best and try to beat Max?

He certainly rose to the occasion last race. Got the lead back from Alonso and that was before Alonso served his penalty, right? Also at the end of the race when they're both suppose to coast, but he was matching Max's foolishneess in order to prevent him from catching him.

I think unless Checco chokes really bad early during the season, it'll be inevitable that these 2 teammates will end up mortal enemies.

I know Max is the better driver, but I'm rooting for Checco this time. :p Hopefully Checco can properly channel his anger to boost his performance. Max could eat some humble pies to help get his ego in check. A defeat this season should do him some good longterm.

Personality-wise, Max is really lacking comparing to Senna or Hamilton or Shuey. I only like his driving. That's about it. I haven't found anything else about him that's likeable...

[FaultyMario]

Zak Brown had just announced the firing of James Key from McLaren.

If I were Brown, I'd already hired Honda to do a technical audit of my own team. "What does Red Bull do better than us that made them able to make the partnership with Honda work when we didn't: an assessment of processes".

[JoeW]

2014...Merc 701 pts to 2nd place 405. Ham 384/Nico 317. 296 pt gap to 2nd Team.
2015...703 to 428. Ham 381/Nico 322. 275 pt gap to 2nd Team.
2016...765-468. Nico 385/ Ham 380. 297 pt gap to 2nd Team.
2017...668-522. Ham 363/ 3rd The Bottas era 305. 146 pt gap.
2018...655-571. Ham 408/ 5th Bottas 247. 84 pt gap.
2019...739-504. Ham 413/ 2nd Bottas 326. 235 pt gap.
2020...573-319. Ham 327/ 2nd Bottas 223. 254 pt gap.
2021...613-585. Ver 395/ Ham 387. 28 pt gap.

RBR Era...
2022...759 RBR-554 Fer. Ver 454/308 LeC. 205 pt gap.

So going back to the beginning of the hybrid era where Merc started its world domination tour, you can see they have obliterated the 2nd place team by over 225pts in 5 of the 8 yrs they won the constructors championship. Thye only fell below that total when Bottas came on board and 3rd and 5th place, and again when Max won the WDC. All the rest weren't even close. Last year RBR got a gap of just over 200 pts last year. Perez barely getting 3rd behind LeC.

So I think we can afford a few more years of RBR domination. You guys thought RBR dominated last year? That's nothing compared to the gaps Merc was putting on teams for the majority of those years.

IF Perez can stick it out and stay 2nd....the car is certainly fast enough...then we may approach the true domination years when Merc had both drivers 1 and 2 in the WDC.

Now if we could truly get a "competitive" driver in the other RBR...and get some Rosberg/Ham fireworks...that would be ideal. But it looks like we are in for more like the Ham/Bot experience.

In this era of cost cap etc etc...I don't expect this gap to others to last past mid season. RBR will start to feel the loss of wind tunnel testing etc etc. And next year it will probably be quite tight again. The new rules are designed to prevent anymore Hamiltons and Mercedes (or Sch/Fer) combos from ever happening again. Which is a shame in some ways because they are limiting the creativity that used to occur back in the day.

But yeah...I'd like at least two more years of Mercedes pain please. 8 Team Championships in a row? I mean they can chill for awhile.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Zak Brown had just announced the firing of James Key from McLaren.

If I were Brown, I'd already hired Honda to do a technical audit of my own team. "What does Red Bull do better than us that made them able to make the partnership with Honda work when we didn't: an assessment of processes".

I believe the main culprit is probably Zak Brown himself. He needs to fire himself to give McLaren hope.

Seriously, he has fired plenty of folks! He fired Honda. He fired Ricciardo. All those firings obviously did not improve his team. He really needs to take a serious look in the mirror. What Ross Brawn has that he doesn't?

[Crazed_Insanity]

But yeah...I'd like at least two more years of Mercedes pain please. 8 Team Championships in a row? I mean they can chill for awhile.

Unlike Ferrari, RB, McLaren and Williams... Mercedes as a manufacturer just might decide take their ball and go home though. :p

I guess then they'll be happy to have Andretti buy an F-1 team? ;)

I think the fairest thing to do is for Adrian Newey to just retire. F-1 should ban him!

Right now, it looks like the next generation of Newey, Brawn types are working for AM? I wonder who they really are... or perhaps AM is just lucky right now?

[samoht]

So I think we can afford a few more years of RBR domination. You guys thought RBR dominated last year? That's nothing compared to the gaps Merc was putting on teams for the majority of those years.



I don't contest that the Constructors Championship has been uninteresting for most of the past decade. However, I (and I think most fans) care more about the drivers.

In general, a competition where you don't know who is going to win is more interesting than one where you do. Even if you know it'll be one of two people, that's still uncertain and thus likely to be exciting.

Since the start of the hybrid era, the deficit of the second-placed driver in the championship has varied between 1% and 36%.

Year Second place deficit
2014 17%
2015 15%
2016 1%
2017 13%
2018 22%
2019 21%
2020 36%
2021 2%
2022 32%


So 2021 was a good year for competition, but 2022 was one of the worst. Out of the seven years Merc won, in only three was the margin greater than 20%.

The concern for the sport going forwards isn't that Red Bull will keep winning, as you say that's fine after so many Merc victories. The concern is that last year saw a 32% margin of victory, this year looks to eclipse that, and why should 2024/5 be much different? Three or four years of 30%+ margins will dramatically reduce interest in the sport.

For it to be interesting, either another team has to be able to challenge Red Bull, or Red Bull have to employ a competitive second driver who can take the fight to Max and make it genuinely uncertain which RB driver will win.

[JoeW]

I think most top tier teams try to avoid that scenario….good for fans but such a terrible headache for the team.

So clear 1 and 2 for top teams will likely be the status quo.

[Crazed_Insanity]

IMHO, if Horner thinks like Ferrari and wants a clear #1 for the team, he probably would not have hired Ricciardo back, right? After all, last time the 2 drivers clashed really badly…

Most such clashes happened when the team hired a younger faster teammate. I do agree most top teams probably won’t go out of their way to hire another top driver that might challenge the current lead driver.

[JoeW]

He's not actually driving. He's there because Horner felt sorry for him and he needed a job.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Really? Was that really the reason?

I’m thought perhaps he’ll soon be Perez’s replacement? If Perez failed to perform this year…

[Yobbo NZ]

https://www.grandprix.com/news/lawson-not-ricciardo-is-red-bull-reserve.html

[JoeW]

Yep. That would be my choice as well.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Ricciardo's hiring was really confusing. Initially I thought he burnt his bridge leaving RB like that. I was surprised to see him hired back. I thought maybe he'll be Perez's replacement later on...

Naturally RB doesn't really NEED him as a reserve driver..., or any other kind of driver for that matter. Plenty of drivers would love a chance to drive for them. If RB wasn't intending to use him to intimidate Perez, then perhaps they were really feeling sorry for him and hired him just as a celebrity driver to do promos?

Anyway, if Perez failed to rise to the occasion, I think Ricciardo would naturally be the replacement. But we'll see.

[JoeW]

Well with Perez getting a 2 and then a 1 I’d say Ricciardo can relax and play more video games.

It’s when you have superior machinery and the 1 driver is winning and the 2 driver is finishing 3-6 that the 2 driver needs to worry.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Yeah, whatever RB’s true intention was, perhaps hiring of Ricciardo was enough to motivate Perez to up his game.

[JoeW]

Steiner on the NASCAR Fox broadcast is hilarious. Just looking at his face you can tell he’s like get me the fuck out of this clown show.

These guys are the worst fucking drivers. There is zero race craft, dive bomb city and…I guess just drive wherever you want in the infield area…it’s fine.

[CudaMan]

The guys up front put on a good show and raced clean. The midpack was another story!

Guenther was a surprise and he did seem out of his element and uninterested.

[JoeW]

A divebomb hit of someone is almost celebrated. So if you ram someone off the track from 5 car lengths back and spin them out it's like "good job buddy"! No penalties or repercussions. I can't imagine what it's like for an F1 driver to go into a shit show like that. You've always been taught to drive within certain rules...and then welcome to nascar!

[Rare White Ape]

You’re rolling dung up a dung heap if you think NASCAR would have any road course driving standards.

[XHawkeye]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FskP5IDWYAk4w95.jpg

https://twitter.com/F1DataAnalysis/status/1641862857653354498

Some people believe that Red Bull's impressive top speed comes from a very powerful engine
However, this is not true: their advantage comes from very low drag
I'm explaining why in this thread, along with some numbers: read on!

If HONDA had much higher power, then:
1)Alpha Tauri would often be 2nd quickest, while in general, they never have a great top speed
2)RB would have unmatched acceleration on the straight; instead, their advantage appears only in the higher gears

3)Other cars could not compete in terms of top speed as they would have far less powerful engines; instead, we've seen that Haas and Williams often have an excellent top speed
Therefore, the low drag is the key to RB's top speed.
In fact:

RB has an 8km/h higher top speed than the next direct competitor (Aston)
A 2.5% higher top speed. The maximum speed is linked to the cube of the engine's power and the cube of the drag.
If that was power related, it would require 7.7% more power, or around 80hp, which is crazy!

Instead, it could be achieved through a 7.7% lower drag: this figure is absolutely possible, especially considering the higher DRS effectiveness of the RB
In F1, different cars have much more variable drag than speed power, as a 1% power increase is worth much more than 1% less drag

[Crazed_Insanity]

Makes sense. From that chart, it looks like Ferrari probably has the least powerful engine?

Clearly AM doesn’t have more power than Mercedes so their copied design has less drag than the factory team.

Too bad we don’t have more data about Renault engine. Maybe they have the most powerful engine now? ;)

It is odd to see such a huge gap between RB and AT. I wonder RB would purposefully give them a slightly detuned engine just to make sure they won’t outshine the main team? ;)

Anyway, quali seemed exciting this weekend. Mercedes finally are able to beat AM now. Entire field is contained in a giant Red Bull sandwich! Awesome! :D

[Kchrpm]

When I got home just as the race was starting, I decided to stay up and watch. I almost fell asleep a couple of times, but oh man, I'm glad I didn't. I may regret it in the morning, but there are going to be a lot of regrets tomorrow about what's gone on so far.

[G'day Mate]

Welcome to the life of an Australian F1 fan

[Yobbo NZ]

Millions of dollars of damage for 2 laps *slow clap*

[samoht]

The theory I've heard on Red Bull straightline speed with DRS is this:
- on other cars, opening the DRS makes the rear wing ineffective, taking away most of the drag from the rear wing
- on the Red Bull, the beam wing flow is affected by the rear wing above - the low pressure under the rear wing 'drives' flow through the beam wing. So when the DRS opens on the main wing, it reduces the low pressure under it, which also stalls the beam wing. The underfloor and diffuser is in turn driven by the low pressure under the beam wing, so as the beam wing stalls the entire underfloor does too. So rather than merely reducing drag from one single component, the Red Bull DRS affects the entire car as a single linked aerodynamic system, cutting downforce and drag across the whole car to some extent.

[JoeW]

And just like that Mercedes drivers have to stop crying about being uncompetitive.

Ferrari now 4th fastest. Not really how I expected Ferrari to start this season.

Hulk consistently outperforming Kmag by quite a bit. Good for you Hulk.

[samoht]

Nah, the way Max pulled out half a second per corner after passing Lewis shows they're still a long way ahead. Being kind to the tyres was a disadvantage here as it meant slow warm-up, but is an advantage nine tracks out of ten. Once the rubber was warm Max was still way faster than anyone. Which is fine, they made a better car, they deserve it.


I do prefer a red flag to a safety car in the closing stages (say, last 10 laps) of a race.

Very often towards the end you have a driver ahead with worn tyres, and another driver who has saved tyres or made another/later stop, who is X seconds back but has fresher tyres. The closing phase of the race is then where you discover how much time the tyre offset can give the driver behind.

VSC is fine because both the gaps and tyres are preserved.
If the safety car comes out, you're taking away the time advantage of the leading driver, but leaving the chasing driver their tyre advantage, which is unbalanced.
Whereas with a red flag, you're saying, we can't preserve the time gaps, so we'll reset the tyres as well, making it at least a fair race, even if not the race that would otherwise have happened.

So both the safety car and a red flag are 'artificial' and distort the competition, but the red flag at least does so in a fair and balanced way.


Under today's circumstances with a crash on the penultimate lap, I suggest the cars continue racing to the finish line, at which point the chequered flag is shown, ie curtail the race by one lap. Then you have double waved yellows at turn one or wherever the crash happened, so they slow right down after crossing the line.

That way you maintain a finish under green-flag conditions with the drivers racing to the line. It also means that you aren't "undoing" any of the on-track action fans have seen happen, which is confusing, by counting back at all - the order the cars come through the end of the lap in, is the finishing order.
I imagine a crash on the final lap would be handled in this way, so it's just the same as that but with a reduction in race length of one lap.

[JoeW]

I didn’t say they were as fast as RBR, I said uncompetitive ;) They were competitive…within .2 in qualifying and should have finished 2/3. That’s competitive.

I would have liked to have had the last red flag happen 5 laps earlier. Let everyone get on soft tires and fight to the end. Max wasn’t getting great starts so it could have been quite interesting in that situation.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Ferrari’s fall from grace is really surprising. I really was expecting Ferrari to be challenging the RBs, not the Mercedes.

Anyway, George really shined today. Too bad for the red flag and too bad his engine wanted to shine brighter today…

If Albon didn’t crash and George’s engine didn’t explode, I wonder if he could’ve ran with Max…?

What an interesting and unpredictable season.

BTW, saw an YouTube video saying that Max’s top speed using DRS isn’t really that much faster than Haas’s top speed. Haas’ top speed was only like 1mph slower than Max’s when using DRS under ‘tow’. So maybe RB doesn’t really have that big of an advantage? Hamilton’s perspective was probably exaggerated because he himself wasn’t using DRS while Max passed him using DRS that’s why the huge seed differential…

Anyway, suffice to say RB has the advantage now one way or another, and Mercedes is catching up pretty quickly. I wish Ferrari could improve too, but things are not looking good for them.

[Tom Servo]

Good god, what a fucking shitshow that was.

[Tom Servo]

Haha

https://i.redd.it/bf9lekw33ira1.jpg

[XHawkeye]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fs4sZ4hWYBQa3XX.jpg

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fs4rNpLWYBQcLae.jpg

[Rare White Ape]

Crashgate rears it’s ugly head yet again.

https://racingnews365.com/massa-assessing-legal-options-over-2008-title-loss-to-hamilton

(Posting here because I couldn’t find a 2008 F1 thread)

[FaultyMario]

Felipe my friend, imma let you finish, but Fred and Flavio and Pat didn't lose you that championship.

It was Ferrari and Stefano. And that stupid fuel hose.

[Crazed_Insanity]

That'd be funny if Hamilton could actually lose one of his titles in a court! :lol:

If I were Hamilton, I would probably just give one of my titles to him. What a crazy story...

[Crazed_Insanity]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fs4sZ4hWYBQa3XX.jpg

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fs4rNpLWYBQcLae.jpg

Looking at these charts, McLaren's not doing so badly compared to other low budget teams!

Ferrari is for sure failing to live up to its full potential yet again.

Mercedes is definitely trying hard clawing itself to the top. If Mercedes could return to its winning ways this season, I'd be very impressed.

I think AT being so far back is probably proof enough that it isn't the Honda engine... unless RB purposely detuned the engines just to make sure AT won't catch up? Maybe they would slowly crank the power up a bit more now that AT is so far behind? ;)

[XHawkeye]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fs9lYFgWYAEySdk.jpg

https://twitter.com/f1visualized/status/1643644604690886656

[Rare White Ape]

Felipe my friend, imma let you finish, but Fred and Flavio and Pat didn't lose you that championship.

It was Ferrari and Stefano. And that stupid fuel hose.

That was my thought when I read it. It wasn't conspiracy or politics that lost the title, it was a Ferrari pitstop :lol:

[JoeW]

Nvm. I was duped.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Duped by what? Inquiring minds want to know!!! :p

[JoeW]

Some dude posted a photo of the W14B Merc with RBR style sidepods. Looked so real…but currently untrue.

[JoeW]

Let me say that the new improved Sprint format is shittier than the already shitty format.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Wow. Ferrari won pole?!?!

The new format means Charles will be on pole for both sat and Sunday?

So sprint race is just to maximize points you don’t have to worry about screwing up you Sunday starting order… that’s kinda cool, no?

Sundays race start will be kinda déjà vu? Glitch in the matrix? ;)

[JoeW]

Charles will be on pole Sunday.

New format has Sprint stuff as its own little separate thing on Saturday. Sprint qualifying early and Sprint Race late. Points awarded for said sprint race. Sunday starts with grid order from Friday.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Wonder if somethings happening in Max’s personal life?

Lost the pole and lost the sprint race. It’d be cool if he loses on Sunday too. That’d be great for the sport, but then for sure something is going wrong with max…

Here’s hoping Perez can channel Rosberg and mount a serious challenge!

[JoeW]

Max has never had pole in Baku. So it’s not an anomaly. In fact this is his first front row start there ever.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I dunno, finishing behind his teammate seems like an anomaly to me! :p

This should give Perez some confidence and momentum into Sundays race.

[JoeW]

I’m pretty sure Max will win if his start is satisfactory. Charles will get passed on lap 3 on the main straight by whichever Red Bull is behind him. Then the next Red Bull will pass him a lap later. Judging by the sprint it will be a Red Bull 1-2 and hopefully Charles can grab the last podium. He’s had a shit start to the season…would be nice to see him rebound.

[FaultyMario]

Marta García is such a hottie.

Please confirm.

[Freude am Fahren]

We are checking...

[FaultyMario]

https://images.daznservices.com/di/library/DAZN_News/d7/4e/marta-garcia_r10nsqjktd6h1socuq3rikg1f.jpg

[JoeW]

I found a hot Spanish figure skater when I looked. Then I fell asleep twice during the race. Wow it was soooo boring.

[Crazed_Insanity]

At least Perez got lucky and did good enough of a job to maximize his points this weekend.

[Alan P]

Going to say it. Indycar is far more exciting than F1 these days. And DRS should be banned on circuits with a top speed of 175MPH+

[JoeW]

Shit, without DRS there would be zero passes made. So until they can come up with a aero formula, then DRS is the only way passes are happening.

[G'day Mate]

Jeeze there really are only three points available for the lower-mid-field if the top four teams' races go according to plan hey

[FaultyMario]

Au contraire, mon ami! The midfield is fighting for all 58 of them!

[Rare White Ape]

Going to say it. Indycar is far more exciting than F1 these days.

*Spaceman holding a gun at the other spaceman meme*

Always was.

[Alan P]

Shit, without DRS there would be zero passes made. So until they can come up with a aero formula, then DRS is the only way passes are happening.

I disagree. no one tries to pass because of DRS. They knonw they can make a safe and easy pass with it so are happy to sit and wait until they have it and sail past. Without it then you need to take more risks and try and make a pass.

[Rare White Ape]

I've had a complaint about DRS for a few years now: they create tracks with long straights to promote passing, then add DRS zones on top of them. A car will pass, then get passed again a lap later, or even on the same straight sometimes.

F1's problem is not DRS zones or tracks to facilitate close racing. Both of those things make it much, much worse.

F1's problem is that people expect it to host exciting racing when it's actually an engineering sport as well as a driving sport. The sooner this is accepted, the sooner people will appreciate F1 for what it is. Until then, F1 is just fighting against itself to gain its own identity, which has always been there anyway.

[FaultyMario]

May first.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=op_rF1eqrvg

[Crazed_Insanity]

F1 needs these personalities to make it more interesting.

Max is a great driver, but he's no Senna.

Technology has definitely progressed a LOT, but I still think F1 peaked when Senna was around.

I think Indycar peaked at around similar time as well, but maybe it's time for me to check back on indycars more often...

[JoeW]

RWA touched on it for me...

I think I am attached to F1 due to them being the pinnacle of motor vehicle asphalt racing. I like the insane G forces they pull in corners, during braking and acceleration. I like that they have to be insanely fit to withstand those forces over the course of a race. Just watching them go around like slot cars is what pulls me in...defying physics...and pulling lap times several seconds faster than Indycar at the same venues. So it's not the super close racing I need from F1. I want all the rest of it. A close race is nice to have, sure. But if F1 all of sudden was using Indy cars I would be done. I don't really watch Indy car because of all those reasons. If I am going to watch open wheelers I want F1. If I want to watch close racing without the insane G forces then I'd rather watch race-prepped road cars like GT3 or GT4.

[G'day Mate]

Au contraire, mon ami! The midfield is fighting for all 58 of them!

Well that's kind of what I mean. There's clearly a top team and then a next three. Perhaps I should be calling Ferrari, Mercedes and AMR the "mid-field" and the others are just backmarkers.

After four races, the only top-eight car to have finished a race outside of the top 8 was Sainz in Australia, and that was because of a penalty.

One thing I don't like about the new points system which is relevant - the jump from 1 point for 10th to 4 points for 8th. I think it would be better if they extended points to 12th and went 25, 18, 15, 12, 10, 8, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 to smooth it out a bit more.

[FaultyMario]

Your proposal looks more fair than what we have now. But some might get upset about extending points-scoring "so far down the field".

Another option would be to, instead of extending it down like you have it, capping it at 15. The only change that it needs, is to adjust second and third to 11 and 9, respectively.


Perhaps I should be calling Ferrari, Mercedes and AMR the "mid-field" and the others are just backmarkers.

You know it's sad but true.

[G'day Mate]

Yeah, an adjustment downwards could work too. I know that F1 has a long tradition of being stingy with points, so if they want to keep that then fine, but at the same time they're handing out a bunch of points for sprint races now too sooooooo ...


After four races, the only top-eight car to have finished a race outside of the top 8 was Sainz in Australia, and that was because of a penalty.

Just want to re-phrase this: After four races and one sprint, all the "top-eight" cars (Red Bull, AMR, Mercedes, Ferrari) that have finished have crossed the finish line before all the "bottom-twelve" cars.

[G'day Mate]

If you divide constructor points by Red Bull points it's interesting too ...

RBR 100%
--------
AMR 48%
Merc 42%
Ferr 34%
--------
McL 8%
Alp 4%
Haas 4%
AR 3%
AT 1%
Will 1%

Red Bull are already two races clear of their nearest competitor after only four races!

Is anyone else also expecting to see the mid-field reverse their current order as well?

[Crazed_Insanity]

Ferrari got pole! So things might turn around! :p

[Rare White Ape]

Another team of hopefuls, with a snowball’s chance in hell of making it to the grid.

https://racingnews365.com/south-east-asian-based-f1-team-to-launch-entry-bid?fbclid=IwAR1FwZBCLnn2xGH93dvaApgnItxW079sTb85Q U5bADqeeUm0e6LeiyQfU3g&mibextid=S66gvF

[Fiat500]

LKY SUNZ? I'm already a fan! Fingers crossed!

[Yobbo NZ]

NZ based Rodin are entertaining a bid also.
https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/articles/single-seaters/f1/rodin-carlin-mulls-f1-entry-bid-with-new-zealand-based-team-and-woman-driver/

[Crazed_Insanity]

Interesting new entry.

[FaultyMario]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FvS7UWAXgAAkIKD.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FvS7TsxWIAEbDZR.jpg


No, i did not post in the wrong forum/thread.

[CudaMan]

I'm surprised Q3 didn't resume. With 1:36 or 1:37 left on the clock I would have thought that'd be enough time for Max to do a rushed outlap and make it to s/f before the checkered flag falls, to get one hot lap and at least salvage something. If I were RB I'd be looking carefully at the rulebook regarding red flags near the end of qualifying.

Max will finish second or first anyway unless something crazy happens.

Magnussen's fall down the order in the race will be painful to watch. Good on him for bagging that result in Qualy!

[Blerpa]

They always red flag without resuming it when there are less than 5 minutes left.
Shit happens, he should have done a lap in... stupid to not get at least a lap in when qualifying in a street circuit when a red flag can happen in any moment.

[JoeW]

Hearing KMags delighted squeal upon hearing he got P4 was hilarious.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Wow! MAG is about to MAGA! Not! :p

Max and Leclerc are making stupid mistakes that’s costing them…

Good for Perez to capitalize on this again! Hope he’ll be able to come away with a win again in a street circuit.

Feeling really bad for Mercedes…, they were really looking good during 1st practice but then things simply fell apart.

[JoeW]

LeClerc is the one making big mistakes. 2nd time he’s binned it this weekend. I wouldn’t say Max made a stupid mistake. He had little blip and decided to come back for fresh tires and a new hot lap. People do it all the time. But yes they run the risk of someone like Charles screwing it up for everyone.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Yes, you are right. LeClerc’s mistake was definitely bigger, at least bigger in terms of damage.