The "I want a new car thread" buying guide.

[Godson]

I saw Swervo mention this and thought it was a good idea. So I will go ahead and start it.


whenever someone mentions they are looking to replace a vehicle, I go through an algorythm. It looks kinda like this.


What kinda of vehicle are you looking at? What is it's main purpose?

What is the most required detail of said vehicle? (I.e. space, luxury, fuel economy, price, flair and flash, safety, etc)

What is your dream vehicle that you are currently looking at and why?

What are some absolute no-gos? (you don't want X manufacturer, no minivans, etc)

What is your price point you are comfortable spending?

Lastly, what hobbies, or dreams do they have, and does this vehicle choice fit that plan in the next 3-5 years?


From there I break down what vehicles fit into that very general information package. and then slowly rank each option one by one.


THEN I have them go and drive each vehicle. I have seen to many times where someone goes and drives their vehicle of choice and they actually hate it. Seats are uncomfortable, driving postion is weird, "it's too big".

From there I am able to help guide them to a vehicle. I have done this a few times, and it is shock how well it has worked out.

[Cam]

My brother once asked my opinion of what car should he buy. He's not really a car guy. I considered his lifestyle and budget and said. "Hyundai Veloster." He turned his nose up and said, "Really?"

Later in the day, we were hanging out on his balcony. He looked down and said, "There's a good-looking car." I said, "That's a Hyundai Veloster." :lol:

He has lived in the city for decades and has never really needed a car anyway. That conversation happened years ago. He still has never owned a car.

[Kchrpm]

I just think everyone should get a Corvette and/or a Pacifica Hybrid. Those two vehicle categories cover everything you could possibly need.

[Godson]

I just think everyone should get a Corvette and/or a Pacifica Hybrid. Those two vehicle categories cover everything you could possibly need.

/Me slaps Kchrpm with a large trout


A Pacifica? Are you effing kidding me?

Neither of these can tow for shit.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Speaking of towing, I've been pondering what my next tow vehicle will be. Need to tow at least 5000 lbs, hopefully more. I was hoping to get an EV truck, but although EVs have great amount of torque, low range and slow charge time make them not very practical. So going plugin hybrid is as green as it'll get for a tow vehicle. We tow our RV trailer only occasionally during warmer camping season, so I don't really want a huge truck/suv...

Also, considering Biden has set a limit on the tax credit to SUVs that cost no more than $80k, so far my only 2 candidates are BMW X-5 plugin hybrid and the Jeep Grand Cherokee 4xe. Both capable of towing around 6000 lbs. A step up compared to my current Kia Sorento. Unfortunately both of those 2 brands are not known for their reliability, right? Having complex hybrid systems and other fancy gadgetry onboard, these 2 brands are just making me very nervous. My backup option is to just get the new Kia Telluride, which they increase tow capacity a bit to 5500 lbs! ;) It'll be cheaper than the plugin hybrids and my local dealer offers a 20yr/200k mi powertrain warranty!

Anyway, please run thru your algorithm and see if you can find other candidates that might work for my family? Thanks! ;)

[Kchrpm]

/Me slaps Kchrpm with a large trout


A Pacifica? Are you effing kidding me?

Neither of these can tow for shit.

Sorry, sorry.

A Corvette, a Pacifica Hybrid, or a Cadillac Escalade.

[MR2 Fan]

That gives me a thread idea........

[Phil_SS]

I want an Escort Cosworth, make it happen. :D

[neanderthal]

I want an Escort Cosworth, make it happen. :D

Repower made an Escort Cosworth for Gordon Murray. (Youtube.) Lovely build, terrible presentation; CEO talking about what they did, and they show him talking, rather than show the work being done. He's engaging and gets technical without nerding, so it's not boring, but it would be so much better if his voice was just the voiceover and the video was of the work being done.

[speedpimp]

What kinda of vehicle are you looking at? What is it's main purpose? Small sedan or hatch.

What is the most required detail of said vehicle? Mainly economy, but needs to have enough power to get out of its own way.

What is your dream vehicle that you are currently looking at and why? Honda Civic Si

What are some absolute no-gos? (you don't want X manufacturer, no minivans, etc) Chevy

What is your price point you are comfortable spending? 30k

[dodint]

No Aveos, then. Darn.

[Tom Servo]

Totally not following the format.

We've had our 2011 RAV4 since it was new, it's coming up on 125K miles. Starting to have a few issues here and there, but we also just feel like we've got enough money to get something nicer. We're a one car household and my wife has made it very clear that a higher up driving position is important to her, as is (at least the illusion of) safety. She also wants better fuel mileage, which led us to looking at hybrids.

The shortlist ended up being the Highlander, the Tucson, and the Santa Fe hybrids. However, on the way, we stopped at a Volvo dealership nearby and test drove an XC60 and the XC90.

We kinda love the XC90.

It's not actually any more fuel efficient than our RAV now, and barely has more power (about 20hp more). On the other hand, we're old and it's maybe the most comfortable car I've ever sat in. The legroom in the second row of seats is obscenely large. I don't hit my head getting in and out of it like my in-laws Outback, despite it not being much bigger. Most of my driving is longer road trip type driving, and driving this thing seems like it'd make those 7-8 hour trips much, much more pleasant. All the safety gear means it's got way less expensive insurance than similar models, and it is not that much more expensive than something like a Toyota Sequoia.

I think we're mostly set on the XC90, but wanted to see if any of you had any strong reasons against it. Keep in mind that if we were going to get something actually *fun* to drive, that'd be a second car. She doesn't drive stick, likes a higher up driving position, and really wants heated seats more than the ability to corner quickly.

[JoeW]

I’ve heard good things about the modern Volvo. They look pretty nice as well.

I totally get the higher driving position. We have a Expedition and a 4Runner and sometimes I have to drive my father in laws Lincoln MKZ which is as low as most sports cars and it’s darn near unsettling how little visibility you have in daily traffic with all of the other cars being small SUVs. I just have to be more cautious when I can’t see oncoming traffic when I’m behind a car at a traffic light. Etc

I think my daily driving a sporty car days are over. Maybe a track car one day but not a traffic car.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Volvos are indeed very nice! Cousin bought the same car and it’s really roomy and comfortable inside. Not to mention Volvo doesn’t just give you the illusion but actual safety benefits!

However, based on the latest JD power dependability survey, Volvo is near the bottom! However, all manufacturers have improved over the years, just can’t compared to Toyota.

Oh and one last thing I think it’s important to add to the algorithm…, that is if your spouse has already fallen in love with a car, it’s probably not a good idea to present data to try to convince her to buy something else. Better strategy is to get her to fall in love with the car you want! If you couldn’t accomplish that, then just let her buy the one she wants.

[Tom Servo]

Yeah, overall I really liked it. We sorta tossed Volvo on there because it was convenient and I think both of us after our test drive were like "unless we find something amazing, this is the one." We drove a Highlander the same day and thought "if we hadn't driven that Volvo, we'd probably think this was great."

My biggest concerns (other than it being significantly more expensive than the others we were looking at) are that it has barely better fuel economy than we have now and it requires premium fuel, so we'll end up spending more in gas than we did beforehand. On the other hand, we would be moving from a two-row to a three-row, so I guess nearly breaking even on that isn't all that horrible. Also, my wife has a lead foot and mostly drives in the city, so it's possible that we may actually get much better mileage than we realistically get with the RAV since hybrids like this tend to help most in stop/start traffic - the RAV was rated I think at 19 city and with my wife at the wheel we get like 13.

I figured it was safe to view post for Billi and I was half right. When it comes to the reliability stuff, it seems like most of it was around the electronics/interior infotainment system. The breakdown I saw was overwhelmingly about that infotainment stack. The 2023 has a brand new one, I guess Volvo ditched their own home-brewed one and went with a Google one, so that should pair really nicely with our Pixels. That actually brings up one other concern, I noticed on the website they say that the Google stuff has "up to 4 years free" and then a subscription "may" apply. No mention of what the subscription entails (does it just break the personalized-results if you sign into your google account with the car? Does it break maps entirely?) or what it costs. I did, however, really like that you can have the map displayed between the Speedo and Tach on the dashboard. Also, as one might assume with Volvo being safety conscious, there were still plenty of physical buttons for interacting with the car - I really don't like having to rely on touchscreens when I'm driving, I want to be able to feel for the controls and keep my eyes on the road.

I talked to my mechanic about his opinion of Volvo, and one thing he brought up was that he thinks they have too many recalls. I looked it up and there weren't many, but there was a brand new one about the brake-by-wire system. Apparently can mis-read a grounding problem and the car will drop down to standard hydraulic brakes, so you can still stop, but you lose stuff like ABS until you turn the car off and back on again. That said, though, apparently it's a software issue and the recall will just go out over the air, so that doesn't seem all that painful to me.

We're going back on Friday to give it another test drive. We didn't take it on the freeway and I want to get a feeling for how quickly it can get up to speed (shouldn't be too bad, says it's 0-60 in 6.4) and what the road noise is like inside at freeway speeds (it's really loud in the RAV). Figure we'll get a couple more questions answered and then see if we end up with it at the end of the day.

[Tom Servo]

I have reached out to tons of people and basically nobody has had anything negative to say about the XC90 other than potential reliability issues, most of which appear to be around the infotainment system.

I will be test driving it again on Friday. Part of the test drive is connecting both my phone and my wife's phone to radio and making sure it can seamlessly switch between them, which is something our current car can't do.

I want to play something Swedish, but Entombed isn't my favorite band and I'm falling back on "Scandinavian" as a theme there. Mayhem and Darkthrone don't feel like they'll actually give me a feel for how good the sound system is. I'm falling on Dimmu Borgir as they have pretty solid production, but open to other suggestions for how to exercise this trve grim frostbitten stereo.

[Phil_SS]

Check to see if the one you are driving has the Polestar Enhancement. It’s a software upgrade that improves the performance of the vehicle. Also, did you test drive a B5 or B6 powered model?

I’m a huge fan of the current Volvos. To me they are the best looking lineup of vehicles. My wife has wanted a V90 for years but she also really covets having no car payments. Which she never had til this past 3.5 years.😆

[Tom Servo]

It was a B6, but definitely a chill drive around downtown Santa Monica where speed limits never get above 30.

When we get it, it'll be named Count Garagenacht.

[neanderthal]

I think earlier in their Geely ownership they were plagued by recalls and engine issues, however I think those have been mostly resolved.

F'n love the V90 wagon myself, but i'll stick to my paid off, 33 year old, 5 speed, diesel Mercedes. It has character. And I already have a payment for the BMW.

[neanderthal]

What kinda of vehicle are you looking at? What is it's main purpose? Small sedan or hatch.

What is the most required detail of said vehicle? Mainly economy, but needs to have enough power to get out of its own way.

What is your dream vehicle that you are currently looking at and why? Honda Civic Si

What are some absolute no-gos? (you don't want X manufacturer, no minivans, etc) Chevy

What is your price point you are comfortable spending? 30k

What's going on Rich; FiST no longer up to snuff?

[dodint]

If had needed this two years ago I could have hooked you up with a gorgeous Focus ST. I almost bought it myself but it didn't feel a particular need since I had the van and some sporty vehicles at the time.

[speedpimp]

What's going on Rich; FiST no longer up to snuff?

It's fine, but if I get the new car itch...

[speedpimp]

No Aveos, then. Darn.

No Aveos or Sparks(the automotive equivalent of a backpack and a fanny pack, respectively).

[Cam]

I want an Escort Cosworth, make it happen. :D

I know a guy. Let me know if you want to make a serious offer on one and I can hook you up.

When I see the title of this thread, I sing it to the tune of I Want A New Drug by Huey Lewis. :)

[Cam]

4030

I'm not joking. It belongs to one of my sim racing buddies. Last year, he mentioned he thought about selling it. It is not currently for sale, but he might be convinced by a legit offer.

[Kchrpm]

Viv would love that!

[Phil_SS]

4030

I'm not joking. It belongs to one of my sim racing buddies. Last year, he mentioned he thought about selling it. It is not currently for sale, but he might be convinced by a legit offer.

Very cool! Is it RHD or LHD? Wonder if he had it imported or if it is one of the Sun International cars?

[Cam]

I think it is LHD. I am not sure. He was in the military, so he may have had it imported. I can ask him tonight. We race together at least twice a week. :lol:

[Cam]

I found a few more photos on his FB feed that clearly show it is LHD.

Several Cossies sold on Bring A Trailer in the past few years for over $50,000 each. :eek:

Still interested? ;)

[Phil_SS]

Yeah, I know the cost. Which is why I would ultimately not be interested. The Escort Cossie is a hero car for me but I think ultimately it would be a disappointment for the money spent trying to pry it away from someone.

Thus if I'm going to spend 50-60k, I would be better off getting a 718 Cayman or 911. Or even spend a little less and just get a first gen Cayman S. If you checked in on it, thanks for doing it. :) If he ever actually is serious about selling it, I may be interested.

[Cam]

I talked a bit with my buddy with the Cossie. He confirmed it is one of the Sun cars. It was owned by a doctor near him that owned three of them. My buddy knew the mechanic that looked after them and heard one of them was coming up for sale. My buddy bought it for around $18,000 about six years ago. He said it needs some work at the moment, but has not gotten around to it. He also owns a Merkur XR4ti (Ford Sierra.)

[Tom Servo]

Pretty much all the responses I got from anyone I went to were either "I don't know a lot about it" or positive, with nothing really negative, so we ran with it. We now have an XC90 B6 Plus in Thunder Grey.

I know it's all kitschy stuff on top of the driving experience, but I am loving having the bells & whistles. Not having to use my phone in a cup holder for navigation. Cameras for parking with warnings if you're about to run into something. Adaptive cruise control for when we're driving 7 hours across the desert to see Michele's folks. Bluetooth that actually works with both our phones (I have not been able to listen to music when I drive the RAV4 for many, many years). And having a car designed by tall Swedes where pushing the driver's seat all the way back is too far back for me.

Still working out all the fancy stuff, but man, it's a pretty nice ride.

In the meantime, it sounds like we might be selling our RAV4 to my sister so her son can use it when he goes off to college, so it's still got some life left in front of it.

[Kchrpm]

Sounds like a great purchase! Yay modernity!

[Godson]

Saw the FB post.

I'm jelly. I wish my tow pig had adaptive cruise

[Crazed_Insanity]

Yeah, I've only heard negative reviews from the press, essentially indicating that volvos aren't reliable, but pretty much everyone I know who owns Volvos all love them for some reason. Congrats! :up: Look forward to your future longterm review in the Garage!

[George]

Cool news, Tom. Have fun.

[Tom Servo]

Gonna do my best. This is easily the fanciest thing I've ever bought, so gonna revel in it for as long as I can.

[neanderthal]

Congrats Tom, good stuff mate.

For me the jump from 90s Mercedes to a last gen BMW 535i was an eye opener in terms of comfort and conveniences. The heated seats feel a m a z i n g when my back is acting up. And, to be fair, my second W124 also had heated seats, but I didn't have a completely buggered up back back then.

[Tom Servo]

If you come visit, our second row seats are also heated. We'll cart you around in heated Swedish fanciness.

[FaultyMario]

Fancey!

[George]

Bosh! Flimshaw! A pox on you warm-climate seat-heating dandies. :angry:

[Tom Servo]

Around here they have these little white T-shaped markings on the road to demarcate curb parking spots. I could never seem to quite get the RAV in the right spot on the first try, so I'd get out, realize that one end was sticking out too far, get back in, restart the car, and move it slightly.

The crazy "above the car 360 camera view" thing is a fucking game-changer. Now I know whether or not I parked like an asshole without even getting out of the car!

[FaultyMario]

You could now be a warm-climate asshole without picking up your seat-heated bum!!

[speedpimp]

So yesterday while the FiST was getting diagnosed I took the opportunity to get it appraised and to also test drive a '23 Hyundai Elantra N. Although the N was a '23 it was still considered a used car because the original buyer bought it, drove it for a month and traded it on a '23 Mustang. I loved it's burbly exhaust note(it's like that all the time). The ride was nice, even with the slush that was on the road. The salesman pointed out the "Grin Shift" button on the steering wheel. By the time I pushed it I was sitting at a stop light. It was a nice car(even with an OEM "HOLY SHIT" bar on the passenger side). The car had 59x miles.
The price was doable(priced slightly above a '23 Mustang Ecoboost manual). It was when we got down to numbers and figures is when it fell apart. I felt they lowballed me on the FiST and looking at the totals I noticed the price ballooned by $4k because of dealer "add ons" like LoJack and "Ceramic Coating". I know those can be said no to(I said no to the ceramic coating on the FiST when I bought it almost seven years ago to the day) and looking at the monthly payments is where I really balked. Maybe I'm out of touch but damn near $900 per month is a bit insane.
I am still curious about the new Civic Si. There are none locally and the nearest one seems to be in suburban Detroit. So...at least I still have the FiST.

[Tom Servo]

Holy shit, yeah, $900 a month is bonkers, but it also seems like it's becoming more and more the norm. I keep reading articles about people with like 84 month loans at $800+ a month, right before I read articles about people rolling over what they owe on one car onto another one a few years later.

I still remember when I was paying almost $500 a month for my 2000 Celica and honestly I was getting screwed by the dealer because I didn't know what I was doing. $900 a month is just wild.

[neanderthal]

If you come visit, our second row seats are also heated. We'll cart you around in heated Swedish fanciness.

:up:
Just found out I have heated rear seats in it too!!!! (I have only ever sat in the front seats in this car.) Gamechanger!!!

I'm tempted to pay it off and give it to my lil brother. I don't need a car payment on top of all my bills when i'm post surgery, but I need to lose 20 ass stubborn pounds first so I guess it'll be a minute.

[TheBenior]

How long of a term for that payment?

$900 per month for 60 months on a $40k loan would mean that they're trying to charge you ~12% interest.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Are dealers still selling above msrp? I think prices are slowly coming down?

However now we have higher interest rates though… so buy cash if you can?

At least go to carmax and get your trade in estimated. That way you don’t have to worry about dealers lowball offer.

Get a pre approval from your bank if you really need a loan. Then you know exactly how much car you can really afford.

As for dealer add on, they can throw them in for free or take them off! We couldn’t care less! :p

Sounds like you really like that car?

You should give your lowball offer that you can afford and visit the dealership every so often and see if it’s sold for $900/mon.

If some sucker bought it, too bad.

If not, just be persistent and maybe they’ll sell it to you!

Do your job to help fight inflation ok?

[TheBenior]

Markups depend on the vehicle, dealer, and location.

Ex: RAV4s and RAV4 Hybrids are regularly getting advertised at discounts from MSRP by me (Chicago). If I want a RAV4 Prime, there's a decent chance I'd have to drive to the exurbs to not pay a markup. However, even one nearby dealer that was previously doing markup shenanigans has one inbound advertised at MSRP. This same dealer was getting around Toyota disincentivizing markups by cutting allocations for new vehicles sitting on lots. They did this by buying in-demand vehicles themselves, then selling them as CPO vehicles for higher than MSRP.

Hyundai/Kia dealers, OTOH, are somewhat famous for bait-and-switch tactics like advertising MSRP, and then tacking on absurdly priced dealer add-ons like the ceramic coating that Rich mentioned.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Oh, and rather than actually wasting time haggling at dealerships, you should just play with them dealers thru emails or txts nowadays.

Give them your best reasonable offer and then periodically ask them to see if they'd budge. If they want to sell, great! You can go pick up the car. If they ignore you, then perhaps market is still hot and they think they can find another sucker to buy. No biggie, you just keep on trucking trying to find your next deal. Best time to buy a car is when you don't really need one right at this moment.

[speedpimp]

How long of a term for that payment?

$900 per month for 60 months on a $40k loan would mean that they're trying to charge you ~12% interest.

60 with my car and $3k down.

When I bought the FiST the rate was 3.9 and my payment was $388 for 78 mos.

[TheBenior]

Yeah, that sounds like them trying to charge you 15% interest as if you had a sub 500 credit score.

[George]

Multiply that $900 per month by four and you're still not quite at the number my company pays each month to lease a Mercedes SUV for one of the owners to drive.

And that's just a lease, so the company gives it back in three years with nothing to show for all that money spent. There's probably a tax advantage, but that's not my department. It seems like a huge waste of money to me.

I'll keep buying cars older cars that are in nice condition for their age to avoid monthly payments. I couldn't afford to take the kids skiing or do most of the fun stuff we're able to if I had a car payment of several hundred dollars per month. I just can't do it, and I wouldn't even if I were rich (not Rich :)).

[speedpimp]

Yeah, that sounds like them trying to charge you 15% interest as if you had a sub 500 credit score.

When I bought the '95 Civic in '98 the APR was 12% because I had shit credit. Nowadays it shouldn't be anything over 5%.

[Tom Servo]

That article I mentioned about people rolling over what they owe on their existing cars into new crazy long and expensive loans had an interview with a guy who ran a dealership for both Volvo and Kia. He was saying at the Kia dealership they were having all kinds of situations like that, but that Volvo buyers were more likely to buy in cash and they weren't seeing the same distressed loans. I also was surprised when our sales guy just immediately started off with "so are you just going to buy this in cash?", which is not the first question I've gotten at other dealerships. I'm wondering if that's a Volvo specific thing or if it's a thing more common to cars above a certain price point. I know out here a lot of the G-wagons you see are distressed loans on salvage title cars, but I wonder how that all shakes out across makes.

[TheBenior]

When I bought the '95 Civic in '98 the APR was 12% because I had shit credit. Nowadays it shouldn't be anything over 5%.

Guess you haven't followed interest rate news. My credit union's new car loans currently bottom out at 4.74%.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Yeah, speedy...

Get pre-approval from your bank 1st. See how much car can you qualify and what rate you can get. You may even try multiple banks to get better rates.

If dealer can offer you better rates, they you can go with the dealer. Dealer will likely want to beat your bank's rate because they want to make the money themselves rather than give up that profit to your bank.

Point is, you are now giving them a target to beat, rather than just allowing them to charge you up the butt however they want.

Same with your trade in. If Carmax offers you certain amount, the dealer better offer more, if they low ball, then you can always sell to carmax.

Anyway, bottomline is paying $900/month on an used car is crazy. Just keep on kicking'em tires. Maybe you can wear dealers down and they'll give you a deal. ;)

[speedpimp]

Guess you haven't followed interest rate news. My credit union's new car loans currently bottom out at 4.74%.

I have zero interest in the news, let alone interest rate news. Looks like I'll be staying with what I've got because yeah fuck that shit.

[JSGeneral]

...I still remember when I was paying almost $500 a month for my 2000 Celica and honestly I was getting screwed by the dealer because I didn't know what I was doing. $900 a month is just wild.


It's quotes like these that keep me reading here. Tom, we have some uniquely shared experiences. I too, owned a 2000 Celica when I was living in San Diego under similar purchasing circumstances. I wish you all the best with your new luxury Volvo. Enjoy the ride!

As far as buying guide experiences that I can add, I think the skills, experiences and expectations of interacting with a dealer is what has evolved most over the years. I have found that preparing for that can be useful in managing any stress that can be involved with making such a significant purchase.

=====================

In 2000, I went online and used the website tools to "build" my Celica. It showed an approx cost and the address of a local dealer. I called them, they had some Celica's on the lot and told me to come by. No vehicle was specifically the build that I constructed on the website... but I picked the closest one with most of the options I wanted in a color that I didn't hate. I was in my 20's living in San Diego. My finances were not as sound as I thought them to be. Left the dealership after one day of haggling with an awesome car, a smile on my face, and gigantic payments.

=====================

In 2016, my wife went online looking for a specific build of 4Runner. At that time, there were only like 5 of them in the state of Massachusetts. But this time the website could accurately pinpoint a specific dealership that had a specific vehicle with options, color, etc. Exact. We had already saved up funds and were prepared to purchase. She called the dealership and asked them to hold it for us. We drove there after work and saw our future vehicle (which we would later name, Rambo) with our last name on it. We walked around our future purchase very pleased. Excitedly, we walked into the dealership...

Now the human interaction began, and boy was that a sour part. Total stereotypical dealership horror story. We thought it being in the 21st century that the days of scummy salesmanship and treating people poorly was over... and we were very surprised to learn how wrong we were. Maybe only George may get this reference, but does anyone remember the Carol Burnett and Tim Conway skit where he's a business man and she is his extremely disinterested secretary, "Missus Ha-wiggins"? The secretary barely looked up at us as we entered a room. She was filing her nails. No shit. The walls were straight from the seventies with fake wood paneling. The cubicles were not much younger. A salesman who would smile so much that it started to seem uncomfortable took us into one cubicle and started a very slow process. We knew what we wanted, what the cost was, and were prepared to pay in full. It should of been easy. He made it arduous. Smiling the whole time he slow played us. Kept seated there. Kept leaving and asking his manager about any little thing he could think of trying to make drama where there wasn't any. (His manager, by the way... was the cubicle next to us. We could hear everything. The manager never just came over into our cubicle to speak with us.) We were there for over 5 hours in that cubicle. During that time, we witnessed another person who walked in... was ignored intentionally for several minutes... and then walked out. After they were a few steps from the door, I could hear the manager from the next door cubicle tell one of his sales associates, "Now... go get him." Someone rushed out and then started interacting with them. My wife and I were dumbstruck. Eventually, it was almost 11 PM and we went home after paying but without the 4Runner and no dinner. Went back the next day to pick it up. Never went back to that dealership again. Fortunately, there are several Toyota dealerships to choose from in the area for service, and we found a modern establishment with fairly good personnel. Still, we're wary every time we go.

=====================

Present day offers a whole new buying interaction experience. We were interested in going electric, and Rambo is still working well for us so there was no urgency. I decided to put a deposit on a Rivian over a year ago. Went to the website and created an account. Picked out the options I wanted, color, etc. During last year I browsed forums of people who were picking there's up at the factory or getting them delivered to their home. Most people seemed excited, informed, and a bit cocky. Typical early-adopter behavior. Heard about issues here and there, and resolutions that were being implemented to fix them. The biggest frustration seemed to be the wait time and the lack of information about when people would get theirs, and who would get theirs first. Not really a concern for me, since I am happy to wait. Also during that year, some options were removed to help speed up deliveries. Some outrage from the vocal minority, but once again... the lack of a roof rack or a first aid kit, etc wasn't really altering my decision.

As I read others' Rivian experiences, I learned that the purchase process was a procedure that I was not familiar with: A person with an order is eventually contacted by a "Guide". This was a Rivian employee who would reach out to the future owner and coordinate with them. They would contact via email, or text or both. After someone gets a guide, that usually meant that their vehicle was being built or finished. The owner is then introduced to Rivian steps on their website that walks them through all questions, finalization of build, documents, paperwork, insurance, purchasing methods, trade in, etc. that needs to be completed. The owner basically completes all of this before they ever see their vehicle in person. A delivery day and time is agreed upon and the vehicle is brought usually to the owner's home where an another employee walks them through their new Rivian.

In January of this year (2023), my account updated to let me know that my Rivian R1S would be ready for purchase/delivery in about a year... a window between Jan 2024-Jun 2024. Cool with me! No guide assigned to me or anything like that, and no expectation for one. Suddenly, at the very beginning of this month I get an email from someone identifying as my Rivian Guide telling me that my R1S is going to be ready for delivery!!! What? I sign into the website and see that my account has changed. I now have the steps available to go through. I tell my wife, and although this was sooner than we expected, we decided to nervously dive in. The guide process went nicely and they were responsive even though I wonder if they were in a different timezone (CA maybe?). They would reach out if a document, or license image I downloaded was too blurry or cut off... and I could resend updated documentation via the website. It was fairly idiot-proof... which was good because entering the EV world for the first time... I feel like an excited idiot sometimes. Always felt like I had stupid questions... but was always treated with answers that were kind and informative. They often finished their emails with "Stay Adventurous."

As I was going through my steps, I was contacted by another guide... this one from their Service Center. Since this location is fairly close to my home, I asked if I could schedule my "delivery" there, since I would be going there for any regular service anyways. No problem! All my steps completed, I had a scheduled date to pickup my Rivian tomorrow! Just yesterday I got a text from my Service Guide that first apologized for reaching out over the weekend, but there was an issue they discovered with a tail-light and it needed to be replaced, and the pickup date would need to be rescheduled. I thanked her for catching the issue and instead of Monday, I'm getting it this Friday. All of this happened in less than a month. I haven't seen one Rivian employee yet, but will later this week.

We'll be keeping Rambo as we learn about EV travel and ensuring that it fits our needs and become more accustomed to the trials and getting used to "range anxiety" and any other tribulations that we may find on the road. (For instance, I am "old-fashioned" these days and rarely like to use apps on my phone... but I need a Rivian App downloaded as part of the purchase... and I'm becoming familiar with other charging station apps that will probably be useful in this future.) As far as luxury goes, this thread may find it interested that not only are the seats heated... but they are also air conditioned! I'm pretty excited. I think I'm going to name her, Naohmi.

[Godson]

That dealer experience from 2k16 sounds exactly what I avoid, and largely built around a shitty management team.

If someone starts slow playing me, or trying to act buddy-buddy, I'm out.

A person goes to a dealership to purchase a vehicle, doing slime-ball things, they aren't there to provide a service. They just want your money.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Ever since I realized that I could buy my 2002 S2000 online from a North Dakota dealer in a snowy winter, I have dealt with dealers using emails ever since.

I only use dealerships to test drive cars and would never hang around after my test drives. After I've experienced all the candidates at various dealerships, I'd just start haggling with them over email. I'd only show up after we've settled on a price. For the S2000, everything was done online and the car is shipped to me. For most other local purchases, I had to go in to sign papers. The finance department would still try to upsell me stuffs, but of course I'd say no, no, no... only thing I'd say yes to is if they can offer me a better bank rate than my own bank's. Usually this signing process could still take couple of hours, but often times shorter.

I have heard buying cars thru Costco is an even better experience, but I haven't tried that yet.

[FaultyMario]

"I Want a New Car" like Samoht's but i don't have that much money. Does this guide cover that subject?

[Crazed_Insanity]

Just keep on maintaining that dream and don't ever give up! Who knows, maybe you will have enough money later? Or at the very minimum, you could buy one in Gran Turismo? :p

[Tom Servo]

Man, JSGeneral, your 2016 Toyota trip sounds a lot like our 2011 Toyota trips to try to buy the RAV4. We actually gave up after three dealerships kept dicking us around, but then another dealership contacted us a few months later and told us they could get us the car we wanted as long as we could wait for it to be shipped cross-country. We were fine waiting, got our car, and it was still a surprisingly painful experience to pay in cash but we weren't there for more than a couple of hours.

Our recent experience was mostly non-painful except for them trying to push an extended warranty. When I declined, he asked me why, and I said that most warranty-type failures occur in the first couple of years where they'd still be covered by the normal warranty. He just said "Yeah, that's true."

[samoht]

my R1S is going to be ready for delivery!!! ... I'm getting it this Friday.


Congrats! Very exciting. I don't think we get Rivians here yet but they look very cool. Which spec?
I've had brief drives in a couple of Nissan EVs and really like the electric driving experience, hope you have a great time with her.

The seat heating and cooling is relatively common in EVs because it's more energy-efficient than heating or cooling the entire cabin. So going one notch less hot/cold on the cabin temp and using the seats to keep you comfortable should give a little more range, in theory.

Do start a separate thread when Naohmi arrives :) Very interested in your experiences especially as it's a car we don't see here.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Yes, please start a Naohmi thread after taking delivery or do it here! Either way, I'd love to hear your Rivian experience too!

[George]

You can't swing a dead cat around here without hitting a Rivian pickup truck. Saw a Rivian SUV this past weekend also; didn't even know those existed.

[JoshInKC]

I have heard buying cars thru Costco is an even better experience, but I haven't tried that yet.
Somewhat accidentally, we bought our 2021 Outback through costco. We'd already decided pretty much what we wanted and were willing to pay, and I thought "Okay, I'll check out what the process is on here since we've got the costco membership anyway". I used the costco portal to build the car pretty much the same as I'd done on the subie website and after I clicked 'finish' or whatever, it showed me a final price that was pretty decent. I then got an email from the salesman at the local dealership who said "Depending on your color preferences, I can probably do a little better than the price you got. If you're serious, give me a call." So I did and we made an appointment to go down there.

Anyway, it was pretty easy and pleasant and we got a very good price though that might just be because of the specific dealership, which generally gets good reviews. As I recall the salesman explained that they did pretty well off of the costco deal, though I do not even slightly remember how he explained it worked.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Awesome! Good to know. I will probably give that a try when I'm in the car market again. Haggling with dealer's over the phone/txt/email is easier than actually sitting there at the dealership, but can still be annoying at times. Sometimes you get lucky with a dealer who's a straight shooter and give you a low price right away, but that doesn't happen very often. I would not mind give Costco some money if I can have a pleasant experience and knowing that I won't get ripped off by dealerships.

[TheBenior]

My parents bought their 2018 Toyota Highlander through the Costco program. They were pretty satisfied, but they had to to pass up a few closer dealers in Chicago to go to one 40 miles away in the suburbs. However, Honda and Toyota dealers that are in Chicago or in adjacent suburbs have been known for general dickishness since at least the 1990s when I started driving. I'm pretty sure that some of the bigger dealers were essentially selling and reselling their vehicles to themselves so that they could sell them as CPO vehicles marked up over MSRP, thus getting around manufacturer allocation punishments for marked up vehicles not selling quickly during the past couple years.

A buddy bought a Mazda3 through the program as well, and he was able to negotiate in some accessories in spite of what's supposed to be a final, no-haggle price.

[JoshInKC]

My parents bought their 2018 Toyota Highlander through the Costco program. They were pretty satisfied, but they had to to pass up a few closer dealers in Chicago to go to one 40 miles away in the suburbs.

Yeah, that kind of happened to us - We had been planning on going to the dealership about 12 minutes north of my house, or a different one like 25 minutes southwest, but the costco thing ended up putting us at the dealership ~45 minutes southeast, which is not a direction I typically go often. But, it's not all bad - I like the service I get from them, and their location is pretty close to where one of my archaeology friends lives, so that gives us an excuse to go out to lunch a couple of times a year, when normally we rarely see each other outside the summer.

[TheBenior]

My father has a pretty good indie mechanic for non-warranty work, so going to that dealer may have been a one-time thing (heck, he's said that at his age and semi-retirement, this might be the last vehicle he ever buys before he has to give up driving). IIRC, he did have a powered hatch strut replaced under a TSB, but he probably went to a closer dealer for that.

[neanderthal]

Maybe it's because my purchases have been motorcycles (besides the used BMW 535i) but i've generally only been in the dealership from the moment I walked in to riding out, in less than 2 hours. Even when I bought my car, I selected the car, applied for their financing, and drove out about 2 hours after I got there.

To be fair, putting $10k down speeds up the financing when you're buying a $13k motorcycle. "Are you interested in the GAP insurance, hold on, with your down payment you don't need it."

[Tom Servo]

I was kinda surprised that I we both had to go through the whole credit check process despite paying in cash. I guess maybe to just see if they would make us go get a cashier's check or something. Took for goddamn ever when I'm like "can we just give you the money and drive away?"

[Phil_SS]

I was kinda surprised that I we both had to go through the whole credit check process despite paying in cash. I guess maybe to just see if they would make us go get a cashier's check or something. Took for goddamn ever when I'm like "can we just give you the money and drive away?"

Maybe it was a way to check to make sure the cash wasn't coming from a bad place, aka drugs, art theft etc. It may be a law for them to check to make sure.

[Tom Servo]

Yeah, now that you mention it, I seem to remember they said there was a legal requirement in CA to do that.

[TheBenior]

Cash purchases and cashier's checks drawn from a banks' (as opposed to personal) account
over $10,000 require dealers to do IRS Form 8300, which is to keep tabs on potential money laundering/tax dodging.

I don't think that a credit check is required at the federal level, but that could indeed be a state thing, or just dealership policy to confirm that you are who you claim to be.

[JSGeneral]

Cash purchases and cashier's checks drawn from a banks' (as opposed to personal) account
over $10,000 require dealers to do IRS Form 8300, which is to keep tabs on potential money laundering/tax dodging.

I don't think that a credit check is required at the federal level, but that could indeed be a state thing, or just dealership policy to confirm that you are who you claim to be.

I didn't mention this part at first, because it will appear as a brag of privilege. Yet since we're talking about payment methods... I might as well mention this part. I noticed in the steps when purchasing the Rivian that an option for a wire transfer was available. I never had done something like this before, but since this whole idea of everything about getting this EV was a brand new process to me... I figured I'd look into it. I contacted my guide and mentioned the bank I wanted to use. (It is a big nationwide bank.) The guide responded quickly and said they had an account with that bank as well... and a wire transfer would be fine. Gave me all the information needed to take to a local office to set up the transfer.

With a printout of several important looking data fields... I went to the bank. I had no appointment, but the manager was very nice and set me up in an office with one of her associates. The associate seemed a bit nervous--it might of been her first wire transfer too--at least it seemed that way. Kept double-checking the information and showing me what was being sent. It was identical to the information given to me from my Rivian guide that I gave to her. I verified that, but some of those data points look like gibberish to me because... like I said... this was all a brand new experience. The transfer cost like 30 bucks.

When I got home, I contacted the guide that I had set up the wire transfer. It was successfully verified by all parties in a few hours. It was terrifying at the time, but actually quick and painless.

[George]

I didn't mention this part at first, because it will appear as a brag of privilege.

For similar reasons, I never mentioned this, but I was mighty pleased to be able to write a personal check for my current car in 2019.

It was a ten-year-old Honda, replacing a twenty-year-old Honda I bought when it was nine years old and owned my from late thirties into my early fifties.

It's now fourteen and my wife's Honda is seventeen years old.

I'll never be wealthy, but if I were, I think I'd drive even older cars. :)


You see that Volvo station wagon over there? The guy drives a 10-year old Volvo. It's brilliant.

[Tom Servo]

Heh, if only the prices for a 10 year old Honda weren't just barely lower than for a brand new Honda.

[George]

Perhaps, but this was before 2020 and the "shortage crisis." Mine cost half of what a new model would have.

Although, I admit to being out of touch with what 21st century cars cost. I was surprised to have been shouted down in the off-topic section of a guitar forum several months ago, when someone - a younger person, I assume - asked for recommendations for reliable and inexpensive used cars.

I replied with my usual "Honda Accord or Civic, Toyota Corolla or Camry." You'd have thought I suggested something exotic and notoriously unreliable, perhaps even Italian :eek:, from the responses.

That group's consensus was a high-mileage Kia was the best way to go and that not even a Nigerian prince could afford an older Honda or Toyota.

You will excuse me now. I must help my valet choose an ascot to match my smoking jacket. It is so hard to get good help these days. :cool:

[Crazed_Insanity]

Hondas/Toyotas probably will always command some premiums thanks to richer older geezers like you willing to pay a 'premium' for them! :p

I bought my 1st ever used car because Kia CPO still offers the 10yr/100k miles powertrain warranty. Figured I might need that when I use it to tow my RV trailer. Plus, back in 2020, I bought that 2017 Sorento at about 50% of MSRP. It was probably an off lease vehicle, still looks new, but had 41k miles on it. Mileage was a bit high, but at least I still have 59k miles of warranty left! Anyway, couldn't be happier with this SUV. It also safely towed my family from LA to Seattle without any issues!

It's amazing how this car never depreciates during the pandemic. Looking up the same car on Carmax with even higher mileage and I'm seeing the same price I paid nearly 3 years ago. What a crazy market. Or perhaps our dollars are just losing value like crazy?

Anyway, my hyundai and kia are not high mileage yet so I can't speak for their longterm reliability. Just that so far so good. Excluding the S2000, I think I really prefer the overall 'feel' of hyundai/kia over Honda now. (I'm sorry, I never liked Toyotas. I haven't driven MR2s, but of all the other Toyotas/lexus I've driven, I really don't like them!) Anyway, so the younger kids might be on to something. Just don't get those lower end Korean models with actual keys. I'm sure those kids also know now that they'll be super easy to steal. No car maker's perfect I guess.

Really hoping car market will return to normal soon. For now, I'll probably stay out of it for another year or 2.

[neanderthal]

Heh, if only the prices for a 10 year old Honda weren't just barely lower than for a brand new Honda.

Dude!!!! I was looking for a used Accord, Fusion, Malibu, Camry, Mazda 6 etc and they were so expensive. A 2 year rental VW Jetta with 100k miles on it, they wanted $18k. Diesel Jetta with 240XXX miles and the first year SMG trans, $14k. I ended up buying a BMW 535i for what they wanted for Camrys and Accords of about the same age.

[Phil_SS]

Yeah, it seems like a decent used car has just stopped at like 12-14k. Even if it is 10 years old with 120k miles. That used to be a 5k car but I guess that is the case when the average new car price is now 50 grand. :eek:

[Crazed_Insanity]

https://www.coxautoinc.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/Sept-2022-ATP-Incentive.jpg

Average car price looks like a bubble rather than just inflation to me…

If you don’t have to buy one, probably shouldn’t! :p

[dodint]

I paid $6500 for my Saab. And about the same for the X5. One of them was an awesome value.

[speedpimp]

Heh, if only the prices for a 10 year old Honda weren't just barely lower than for a brand new Honda.

Look at prices for a 2k12 F150 with 150k miles and it's $15k at the minimum.

[Tom Servo]

Yeah, I guess it's no surprise they offered us $8k for the RAV despite it looking like it's lived a hard life. I have to imagine they would have turned around and asked at least $12-13k for a 12 year old car with 125k miles on it.

[George]

Twice in the past, large new & used car dealerships have allowed me to take a car they were selling to my regular shop, where they knew me, or at least could look me up and see I was a repeat customer. The car dealers were nonchalant about it - "sure, take it wherever you want." They copied my drivers license and maybe my insurance card and handed me the keys before any purchasing paperwork was started. No deposit.

What about with a private seller in a different part of town where I don't have a "regular shop"? I bet I could call an appropriate shop in the area and make an appointment, but do private sellers let people drive their cars to a shop? Or, maybe allow it to be towed to a shop and back?

I realize I could just ask the seller, but some of you guys buy cars more often than I change socks. Anyone have experience with this?

[dodint]

For the enthusiast segment that's almost expected. For a regular dude? They might not be as comfortable with letting you take off with it for the afternoon. As a seller I see it as a win-win, either the buyer buys it or they give you a list of stuff to address before the next buyer comes along.

[Tom Servo]

That was very commonplace when I was younger, my dad would always take any possible purchase to his mechanic and the seller was always okay with it. That said, that was decades ago, I have no idea if people feel the same way these days.

[George]

Thanks gents. Just starting to do some homework on this. Appreciate the input.

Also just had a crazy idea - I could hire one of the mobile mechanics who advertise in the automotive services section of craigslist and ask him to come to the car. It wouldn't be as complete as inside a shop, but faster and with less risk of driving a car I don't own across town.

[dodint]

ebay has, or did have, a service like that. You could schedule and pay for a PPI right through the auction listing.

[CudaMan]

Normally I go see a car for myself, if it's within a 3-4 hour drive from me. Only two times I've had a car taken to a shop for PPI. The first one (my 328i) the private owner was a good straightforward dude and took the car to a well known shop in the area not too far from his work. The second time is happening next week, and I'm paying the owner of a tiny used car lot $50 to take the car to a shop 30 minutes away form him.

These are for vehicles on the opposite coast from me, that are being sold by strangers. Typically I have bought long distance cars from people in my extended autox family, so there's been a lot more trust and knowledge involved.

[Phil_SS]

My wife has sort of come to the conclusion that she wants a new car. Before her current car, (2012 Jetta "Golf" Sportswagen) she never owned a car long enough to pay it off and enjoy the financial benefits of long term ownership. So she loves the car, but she doesn't trust it totally anymore, tranny is starting to slip and she doesn't want to use it for long trips. It has around 90k miles, so it is still young from a usage perspective, but it is closing in on 12 years old.

My thought would be just to get the transmission replaced when it shits the bed or gets close but that appears to be around $4-5K. Value of the car is probably like 8-9k. Trade in says around 6.5k. Plus with my daughter going to be learning to drive early next year, it might make sense to get something with a little more technology.

I have been suggesting a RAV4 Prime for a couple years but they are impossible to find. They don't exist in inventory or in the used car market. Plus I'm not sure the difference in price compared to some cars is worth the difference in cost. Aka, it will take a long time even at the current gas prices to make up 6-7k especially when my wife has a job/career that is permanent work from home. Aka, no commute.

Both of us have always lusted after the Volvo wagons but man, they start at like 50k for a V60. There is a certified used 2020 V60 at a local dealer for 37k. But is like the only one in the area. So not much choice.

But recently I saw a car I thought she may like, the Mazda CX-50. it feels like a spiritual sister to the Jetta Sportswagen, which isn't manufactured or sold in the US anymore. So we may go look at one this weekend.

I have suggested maybe a different CUV/SUV and she does like her friends Mazda CX-5. But she doesn't like or want a big SUV/truck.

And for those that don't know, my wife has a craft business and any car she buys must be able to easily carry folding tables, and the boxes of crafts. Her Sportswagen has been perfect and up to the task. So I think the small CUV/SUVs would not have enough junk in the trunk.

Any other suggestions? And of course the 300lb gorilla is the interest rates right now which are redunkulous.

[Yw-slayer]

Forester? CX-50 is meant to be decent, though.

[21Kid]

Plus with my daughter going to be learning to drive early next year Wow... Now I feel old.

I know I'm going to get shit for this. But...
Our hybrid Pacifica hybrid has been amazing (ask Adam https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=pfbid0UpztKdbPV2t2DG7kkp5kpsT 86XfnoB7u7vLKPTwBjuaYsXARS36q44HhEUdfqoqml&id=37501429&mibextid=Nif5oz). It is great for hauling stuff. We fit 8 pallets in the back. (We made some vertical gardens out of them.)
The 33 miles of electric power is plenty to get Shannon to work & back twice. And it actually feels pretty quick because of the electric motor. You can charge it at home with a standard outlet. But it will also connect to a heavy duty 240v for faster lv2 charging. We had one installed with our solar panels.
The premium stereo is actually awesome. I usually install aftermarket subs in my vehicles. The Mustang has one. But the Pacifica doesn't need it. I thought there was one included in the package it sounds so good. (but there are just 9 6x9s. LOL)

[TheBenior]

Cost calculations with the RAV4 Prime and other plug in hybrids get a bit complicated because you have to factor in the mileage you do on electric charging alone.

However, working from home, it's unlikely that the additional $6-10k on top of the RAV4 hybrid makes sense long-term. If she's doing big miles for the craft shows, then the plug-in mileage becomes less important than the hybrid mileage. That being said, if somebody wants a non-luxury CUV that's pretty darn quick (0-60 in 5.6 and a 14.0 quarter) or the convenience of buying gas less often, the Prime fits the bill.

The CX-5 is almost the exact same length as the Sportwagen, and unless they made this aspect worse over the years, the back doors on my 2014 CX-5 open more widely than my Golf GTI. This, along with the taller roofline, makes fitting car seats and bulky items into the back seat area (with the back seats up) easier on the CX-5.

The CX-5 and CX-50 are rated for slightly lower mpg than even a non-hybrid RAV4, but they're probably also nicer handling (definitely true in years past, haven't driven the current competition), and nicer places to sit in. Toyota interiors tend to feel cheap compared to Mazdas or the VW she's used to.

Mazda does have 2.9% for 36 months on the CX-5 and 3.9% on the CX-50. If you're fine with that, I'd take a tape measure and measure the Sportwagen, then go to a dealer and see if the cargo holds are comparable. In past years, Mazdas had worse resale value than a Honda/Toyota/Subaru, making them better used buys, but I don't know if that holds today.


Bill, normally I think that more people should consider minivans instead of CUVs, but that's instead of large CUVs. Your Pacifica is bigger than a Pilot or Highlander. It's 25" longer than the Sportwagen, and 9" wider. A CX-5 is 1" longer and 2" wider, while a CX-50 is 7" longer and 5" wider.

[Godson]

There is a pretty good chance I am going to sell the Cayenne and pick up another F150.

https://www.cargurus.com/Cars/inventorylisting/vdp.action?listingId=365356824&zip=64130&inventorySearchWidgetType=AUTO&sortDir=ASC&sourceContext=cargurus&distance=200&sortType=DEAL_RATING_RPL&entitySelectingHelper.selectedEntity=d337#listing= 365356824/NONE/DEFAULT

Likely this one, damn near fully optioned.

It's a platinum, and it has Adaptive cruise, 3.5 EcoBoost, 3.31 axle (which I prefer for highway fuel mileage), and the 38 gallon fuel tank.

[TheBenior]

"I GET GREAT FUEL ECONOMY I CAN GO 700 MILES PER [38 gallon] TANK!"

[Godson]

"I GET GREAT FUEL ECONOMY I CAN GO 700 MILES PER [38 gallon] TANK!"

Absolutely! Lol

[balki]

Anyone have dealership tips to share?
Bought a dozen vehicles (all used) over the years, but have never stepped foot in a dealership ... I'm terrified.
The local one has a bad rep which I want to avoid and a decent one is about a 3-hour roundtrip ... want to be prepared and hopefully make only two trips.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I only deal with their internet department and haggle over OTD price thru email or text. If we can’t agree on a OTD price, I won’t bother going in.

This way I won’t have to waste time at their dealership and I can cast my net with a wider radius. I don’t mind driving a bit further if that dealers willing to give me a good deal.

I bought my S2000 and RV from dealerships out of state… and got a cheaper price, including shipping, than my local dealers.

Just visit the dealership to kick tires and test drive. Don’t waste time trying to strike a deal there.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Actually there are multiple hurdles… OTD price is just one.

Make sure you don’t let them know whether you’re paying cash or financing. Also don’t let them know if you have trade ins. Negotiate them separately and individually.

You have in your mind how much your old car is worth. If they pay a good price, let them have it. If not, you sell the old car yourself. But keep this negotiation strictly by itself.

If you’re financing, go with your bank’s pre approval in hand, if they can beat your banks rate, great! Usually they will. I’ve never seen a dealer who couldn’t find another bank with lower rate.

Dealers like to muddy the waters so it becomes difficult for you to see how they bury additional charges here and there. Whatever they try to upsell to you, just say no! :p

[George]

"I GET GREAT FUEL ECONOMY I CAN GO 700 MILES PER [38 gallon] TANK!"

When my neighbor got rid of his second Pontiac Bonneville and bought a Dodge Ram crew cab 4x4, I asked him if he was buying gas a lot more often.

He said, "No, but now it costs $80 to fill up instead of $40," or whatever the numbers were back then. I've found the same to be true with my current gas-hog.

A 38 gallon tank is huge! I wonder if they still make trucks with dual tanks, or if those went away decades ago.

[XHawkeye]

Used cars: Once you've narrowed your search down to a couple models search Autotrader/Cars.com/Carmax/Carvana/FB/Craiglist/etc and once you have the filters set save the link. I had a link for each brand & model I was looking for. Next time it only takes one click to do an updated search. Had 37 links by the time I was done.

Used a spreadsheet to track every listing of the cars I was search for at even if I wasn't interested in the the car for whatever reason. This helped me quickly determine if a car was good,ok and or bad value.

https://photos.smugmug.com/MISC/i-rhcmsZn/0/37ea24a9/O/Capture045.jpg

I put the price, Total Price was OTD cost, Monthly $ was my loan, Total $ was down payment + loan payments.

To determine value I calculated the Total $ of a new car and divide that by the number of miles I planned to keep the car giving me Total $ / mile. May not be able to afford a new car but it creates a baseline to compare the value of a used car. Did that for each make/model I was looking at. (Civic EX, Civic Si, Mazda 3, Veloster, Veloster N, Elantra N, etc) If the used car isn't for sale any longer (Mazda 2 / Fit) pick a new car to compare it to.

I plan to keep a car 200k miles. If a used car has 50k miles I'll drive it for 150k miles. Divide the Total $ by 150k and see if the GBU number is green or red.

The Total $ / New compares the used car's Total $ to a new car. I'd also put a link to the listing and when a car was sold I'd delete the link.

If the price was reduced I created a new entry to follow price. Followed one Corolla HB (wasn't interested, crappy color/spec) go from $27,724 on June 6 to $24,979 back up to $26,836 to $22,744 on Feb. 22

Had 292 entries when I was done.

=============

Then you get to the dealer and the amount of crap they try to sell is amazing. The 'best' one was a 2015 Mazda 3 with 37k miles that had a wheel so out of balance once I got over 55 I made the salesman drive it back. The salesman wanted me to wait an hour while they 'fixed' the car. Told him he was done wasting my time and he could sell it to some other unsuspecting sap.

[TheBenior]

If you’re financing, go with your bank’s pre approval in hand, if they can beat your banks rate, great! Usually they will. I’ve never seen a dealer who couldn’t find another bank with lower rate.

When I bought my GTI, my credit union was within a quarter point of the VW promotional rate. However, the advertised price included $4k in cash to dealer incentives, and it was take that or the promo financing. I ended up paying less in the long run taking the extra quarter point of interest and lower purchase price.

However, that's less likely to hold true for a used car.

[dodint]

Tyler and I have a similar spreadsheet for One Lap in America candidate cars. :lol:

[Crazed_Insanity]

When I bought my GTI, my credit union was within a quarter point of the VW promotional rate. However, the advertised price included $4k in cash to dealer incentives, and it was take that or the promo financing. I ended up paying less in the long run taking the extra quarter point of interest and lower purchase price.

However, that's less likely to hold true for a used car.

Yeah, primary objective is to lower your purchase OTD price as much as possible 1st. Leave financing negotiations for later. When given the choice to lower your purchase price vs 0% financing, always pick the cash back to lower the price!

Im a bit surprised your dealer didn’t work harder to find you another bank to beat your credit Union. Your CU rate must’ve been damn good that they couldn’t beat it! :p

[Yw-slayer]

Holy crap, that spreadsheet is S-Tier.

[balki]

I've had dozens of craigslist links setup for specific cars but craigslist hardly has any for sale by owner cars now.

Is "tipping" the sales manager at a dealership an option?
I get that they have to make money and am willing to give someone $200-$300 cash to just get their best price quickly.

[Phil_SS]

Yeah, primary objective is to lower your purchase OTD price as much as possible 1st. Leave financing negotiations for later. When given the choice to lower your purchase price vs 0% financing, always pick the cash back to lower the price!

I agree with the first part but with interest rates where they are, depending on how much they are giving back, the lower interest rate could be more beneficial.


Holy crap, that spreadsheet is S-Tier.

No doubt. I've often wondered if there is a potential job out there like a real estate agent but for vehicles. Where the person tells you what they are looking for and you provide them with suggestions and then you help them negotiate the deal for a fee.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I agree with the first part but with interest rates where they are, depending on how much they are giving back, the lower interest rate could be more beneficial.
I've not bought a car ever since Covid has blew up the auto industry. So things definitely could've changed? Anyway, yeah, do your due diligence with the loan payment calculations. Don't rely on the dealer financing dept. At least with my prior experience, I have never found a manufacturer's 0% APR deal that'd truly give me a lower monthly payment than the thousands of cash back. I suppose with super high car prices and super long loans, maybe lower APR could work out, but you're still getting enslaved by their ballooned car price and forever loans. Our goal is to deflate that balloon price as much as possible... and make the loan rates and terms as low and short as possible. In THAT order. Any time dealer offers to lower your 'monthly' payment to help you save money, be sure that's BS! :p




No doubt. I've often wondered if there is a potential job out there like a real estate agent but for vehicles. Where the person tells you what they are looking for and you provide them with suggestions and then you help them negotiate the deal for a fee.

There's this store call COSTCO!

Now, if you don't even know which brand/model you want... you just want to specify a big red car and have an agent come up with 10,000 possibilities and then pretend to help you narrow down your choices... pretty sure that's going to be an expensive service. :p

If we personally build such a spreadsheet, you guys never run into that problem called analysis by paralysis? Most people have a problem with that when presented with too many choices.

After test driving and reading consumer report or whatever car magazines, I usually know what I want. If you can't figure out what car you want to drive, maybe you should just stick to Uber? :p

[Crazed_Insanity]

I've had dozens of craigslist links setup for specific cars but craigslist hardly has any for sale by owner cars now.

Is "tipping" the sales manager at a dealership an option?
I get that they have to make money and am willing to give someone $200-$300 cash to just get their best price quickly.

Contact internet sales manager. You don't need to tip them and they'll usually be quick about whether they can sell you something at a certain price. If they said no and you really want the car, then you increase your offer. If you don't want to pay extra, you walk.

Or just goto COSTCO or whoever else who'd get you a car at a reasonable price without the need for haggling.

Simple way to do it is to check COSTCO price... and then try to see if you can haggle and beat COSTCO's price. If not, go back to COSTCO. ;)

Theoretically, COSTCO must make some money, right? So in theory, you should be able to get a deal that's slightly cheaper than COSTCO price.

[Kchrpm]

I've seen someone that wrote on Jalopnik say that they were a car shopper but I don't remember the details.

[balki]

I did start with Costco, their search said something along the lines of 'nothing in your area that meets our strict criteria' ... guess I'm surrounded by stealerships.

Reached out the "Internet Sales Specialist", she wrote back pretty quickly. I then asked for some basic info and an OTD price ... no reply in over 24 hours. Will give her a call in the next day or two.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Stealerships need to be able to gauge where you’re at. You offered them absolutely no info about you. They will not voluntarily give you the lowest OTD price from the start.

Their strategy is to just make you wait and make you wonder what’s going on. If your interest level is high, surely you will come crawling back. Remember the System? This is a similar game.

You should give them your offer and leave it at that. Either you increase your offer or just walk away to try another dealership.

These multiple attempts at various dealerships will also give you some idea what the market price truly is. If you want a car, you’ll have to pay the market price. If it’s too high, then you’ll have to stick with your old car.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Discussion about buying cars got me thinking how Tesla's model is probably hurting them without these stealerships. Why? Because stealerships can easily adjusting their prices based on market conditions and based on how gullible each buyer is. The gullible buyers will also never know that they were ripped off with a high sales price and ended up carrying a super longterm high interest loans. If stealerships do come face to face with a buyer who's done sufficient research and if dealers need to meet certain quota, then of course they'll be more willing to make deals with smaller profit margins. Whereas Tesla's current method is adjusting pricing publicly fleet wide. How would a customer who just bought a car before you suddenly lowered the price feel? Naturally Elno's move will end up pissing his old customers off. Further, future potential customers are like... hmm... maybe if I wait longer, Elno will lower the prices more? So I think Tesla's internet sales method may be shooting themselves in the foot? I suspect if one day Starbucks and Apple start lowering their prices, that'll probably end up hurting their sales too! ;)

Anyway, balki, I hope you've done your research to come up with a reasonable price that you're willing to pay and dealer will likely sell. They are not likely to sell you a car while losing money! :p So whatever this target price you have in your heart, shave some off and then let that # be your initial offer. Cast this wide net to as many stealerships as you can.

If your offer is too low, they'd say no or don't even bother to respond. Then you slowly increase the price.

There will be a lot of waiting and game playing going on and that's why I prefer to do this over the internet at the comfort of my own home or office rather than be stuck in their stealerships.

Be patient and good luck man!

[balki]

It was only one car, but I saw dealer's wholesale price as $45k for a $55k car ... that's 10k that Tesla can have to itself.
I think their wild price swings are drive mostly by Musk, sales goals and Wall Street .. being internet only just makes it easier to execute the changes.

Target for my dealership experience is MSRP with only a few hundred $$$ in dealer fees. Right now I can hold out until the last week of year (the supposed best time to buy).

[balki]

Welp, the car I wanted was sold earlier this week... nothing else in the area that isn't optioned out. Might have to go with a factory order (3-4 months to build).

Correction on my previous post ... $65k MSRP and $55k for the dealer (16% markup [more than I expected] ... options had a 20% markup ... [less than I expected]).

[Crazed_Insanity]

Yikes!

My strategy is only for getting what they have on the lot. If supplies are that limited, stealerships often becomes pirateships! Good luck man.

Some say auto prices should come down soon, but as long as there are buyers paying these prices, we’ll likely continue this crazy trend. UAW strike is also not helping…

Btw, the $250/month model 3 lease was probably a mistake. Don’t see that on Tesla site anymore… :( However, low $300 still looks decent considering that’s about how much I spend on gas each month…

Anyway, glad I’m not in the market for a car now…

[balki]

There were news articles on it and I was able to see the $250/mo show up for a couple of days on Tesla's website on multiple 3's... probably a legit sale to get the 'sales' numbers up briefly.

As far as a factor order ... I won't place a deposit if it's going to be above MSRP.
Now I'm thinking do I get a classic and low maintenance color (silver/grey/white) or something flashy (Radiant Red, Metallic Blue).

[George]

My wife has been car shopping lately. She's been driving a 2006 Honda Pilot for ten years, at least. It has more than 220,000 miles on it. I guess it's time.

For what it's worth, that's our third Honda with more than 200,000 miles on it. We had another we sold around 150K to get something bigger (the Pilot, from an Accord) and mine has about 132K now. I remain a Honda fan.

She's looking at something European. :twitch:

[Tom Servo]

XC40. You know you want it.

[Yw-slayer]

Isn't the XC60 more Pilot-sized?

[XHawkeye]

I've had 3 Hondas and the only one not to cross 200k was stolen before at 172k.

Many moons ago seeing a picture of a B5 S4 with the front clip removed for a timing belt change reinforced my bias the EU cars are maintenance needy drama queens best avoided by owning Hondas. Owning a FiST was proof that I should only own Japanese cars.

[Tom Servo]

XC60 is more Pilot sized, but I've seen so many people buying XC40s lately that it seems like the Euro-barge of choice.

[George]

XC60 is a bit smaller and sits lower than a Pilot, and it doesn't have a third-row seat.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Only European suv I’d consider is bmw x5. However, even with that, I kinda doubt it can last til 200k miles ‘affordably’…

[Tom Servo]

Ahh, I didn't realize the Pilot is more the size of the XC90 then.

[Godson]

There is a pretty good chance I am going to sell the Cayenne and pick up another F150.

https://www.cargurus.com/Cars/inventorylisting/vdp.action?listingId=365356824&zip=64130&inventorySearchWidgetType=AUTO&sortDir=ASC&sourceContext=cargurus&distance=200&sortType=DEAL_RATING_RPL&entitySelectingHelper.selectedEntity=d337#listing= 365356824/NONE/DEFAULT

Likely this one, damn near fully optioned.

It's a platinum, and it has Adaptive cruise, 3.5 EcoBoost, 3.31 axle (which I prefer for highway fuel mileage), and the 38 gallon fuel tank.

I did in fact end up buying this guy.

It is an absolute gem, and I feel like I am back in my old truck with all new technology that was greatly lacking. Android Auto being one of them.

[Kchrpm]

Android Auto is a great thing to have. 👍🏽

[Yw-slayer]

I have been deprived of Android Auto for around 2+ years as Google decided that people in HK, which is an unsupported territory, should not be allowed to use it, even though they can use it in other unsupported territories.

Everyone here just gave up and bought cheap iphones (in my case, a secondhand 7, then later the current-gen SE for improved speed) to use Carplay instead. I can only get my Android Auto fix when I'm abroad in a rental car.

[balki]

... proof that I should only own Japanese cars.
Now that you mention it, I've owned 6 Toyotas, 2 Mazdas, 2 Honda and a Nissan (not counting 2 Honda motorcycles and a FB RX-7 that was gifted to me). Test drove 1 European car and no Americans.
Paid something like $35k for the 11 cars and got back like 25k for them (two are still with me, so that's another $3-4k). Not one has stranded me once (excluding two dead batteries at home).

[Crazed_Insanity]

Come to think of it, sadly, all the Hondas I owned stranded me on the road!

90 Civic Hatchback: distributor cap issue. Happened around 70k miles out of warranty. However, Honda eventually had a recall and since mine was already repaired, they reimbursed me. They figured although out of warranty, they felt they screwed up and made a substandard part. That was pretty cool and made me love Honda even more.

02 S2000: Hydraulic clutch failure. That was probably my fault. At around 120k miles, I thought my clutch is going out, but turned out to be clutch master cylinder failure. Probably should've remember to change out fluid just like brake fluid. Never had a car with hydraulic clutch before... Anyway, so I ended up having to replace that cylinder. Interestingly now at more than 150k miles, I'm still on my original clutch.

07 TSX: Had a VTEC failure within the warranty period. Honda and dealer claimed it's my fault because supposedly they found sludge in engine. However, I have service records showing that I have had oil changes. I own my cars on a longterm basis. I can't possible forget to get oil changes... but they didn't care. So I ended up taking Honda to small claims court. Honda didn't want to spend money on lawyer so Honda finally settled with me.

That's the time when I start exploring with Korean makers. I'm not 100% happy with Hyundai/Kia, but at least so far I haven't been stranded on the road yet.

Speaking of Korean cars... they probably stole some Audi designers? So their cars can look a bit european without european reliability? Personally I'd pick Kia Telluride over Honda Pilot any time of the day.

[Tom Servo]

Android Auto is a great thing to have. ����

I am still trying to figure out why Google now has Android Auto and Android Automotive. Or, more accurately, why they named them that. It's only recently that Google's own search would say "showing results for Android Auto" if you searched for "Android Automotive".

The new Volvo has Automotive, while I used Auto on the rental Peugeot. In the absence of Automotive, you're right, Android Auto was a lifesaver. The built in TomTom was not great, and it was jarring seeing how many features I take for granted in Android's navigation that TomTom just didn't support. Notably, zooming in to a useful scale. When I punched in directions on the TomTom from Rome to Cetona, it was trying to give me turn by turn directions but the map was zoomed out to the entire 2 hour drive, giving me absolutely no way to see the turns it was telling me to take. You can manually zoom in and out, but it doesn't handle any of that for you, leaving you to fumble for touchscreen buttons while trying to navigate traffic.

Also, it's amazing how many infotainment screens are set up landscape when most of the time people use them for navigation, which always works better in portrait.

[speedpimp]

Owning a FiST was proof that I should only own Japanese cars.
What issues did you have other than wonky HVAC blend doors?

[XHawkeye]

The ABS valve body had to be replaced, wouldn't wouldn't release RF brake after releasing the brakes. Took 3 trips to the dealer to get it fixed.

[speedpimp]

FFS. Maybe it's time...

[Yobbo NZ]

Today I purchased 2012 Rav4 ZR6 with 200,000kms.
Have wanted one for a while and had a look at two others today which were pretty rough. I mentioned this one to the wife and as it was quite bit more expensive, I expected her to sat no. But she said let's go have a look.
Had a couple of scratches and I noticed a semi decent attempt at a panel beating job on the driver's door.
All in all, very tidy inside, can spend some money on the outside when the time.comes.
Paid $15,500 after talking him down from $16,500.
Pick it up next weekend. I'm excited and sad to finally retire the 2002 Camry with 522,000kms on it.

[Tom Servo]

That is pretty much exactly the RAV4 we've got, ours is a 2011 with the V6. It's been a great car and served us very well for the past 12 years. Congrats!

[balki]

Finally stepped foot in dealership, was nowhere near as bad as I expected.
They didn't have the car that I wanted and did want or couldn't take a factory order. No one was pushy (all in polo shirts).

Went to another dealership, took my order and was out in less than an hour. The guy looked/dressed like a used car dealer. He half-heartedly tried to make me pay a $2k markup, otherwise also not pushy or sleezy.
Not sure if that's what dealer's are like now or if me going in for a specific model and trim was the biggest factor.
Overall would prefer to be able to get more done online or on the phone but I was pleasantly surprised.

[Crazed_Insanity]

It seems Tesla Model 3 lease prices continued to drop the longer I wait... So I'm in no hurry. May pull the trigger before year end to take advantage of free super charging for 6 months if I can't find other better deals.

Speaking of other deals, I saw a Hyundai Ioniq6 sedan which would be cheaper than Model 3, but we were down to $7/month difference. I wanted an even $450/mon with $0 due at signing out the door. Dealer went down to $457 and refused to budge further. That price would've still be cheaper than Model 3 plus Hyundai will give you a free charge worth $600 and another $600 credit to help hook it up in your house! So it could've been a cool deal, but after couple of weeks of stalemate, I guess dealer sold that only car on the lot to somebody else. So now they only have the more expensive AWD models. AWD would be nice for snowy winter, but not sure if I really want to pay extra for them...

After test driving both Model 3 and Ioniq, Model 3 definitely drives better. Both cornering and acceleration. Only draw back was less rear passenger legroom according to my daughter. My daughter prefers the Ioniq6 because it's roomier for her! :p However, due to the droopy rear trunk, it really won't be able to store much compared to model 3. Ioniq6 is very aerodynamic, but looks ugly to me though. My preference is definitely the model 3.

My other option is to find a good lease deal for Jeep Grand Cherokee 4xe to take advantage of the $7500 tax credit. Buying it would only give you $3500 credit... so hopefully I can find a lease deal that works for me. That way I can save fuel running local errand and also be able to tow my RV during camping season...

I think the new car market is relenting a bit. As long as you can find a dealer with bunch of cars on their lot, they're more willing to deal rather than insisting on having mark ups... however, I still don't like dealing with them though.

I actually love the Tesla dealerships. No pushy sales folks. They just try their best to answer your questions... and they let you test drive their cars without tagging along! I can also clearly see pricing on their websites.

Where as in regular dealerships, they often times won't even honor official manufacturer's site's pricing. Would just blow me off as a mistake or just say they don't have the car at that price anymore. One interesting thing I found in a local hyundai dealership was that early saturday morning, I didn't see many customers, but there sure are a LOT of employees hustling around in the dealership though. Not sure what those busy bees were doing without any obvious customers, but suffice to say they must made sufficient profits to pay all those employees? So weird. All those earlier dealer markups must've helped them make a lot of money...

[Crazed_Insanity]

Okay, pulled the trigger and leased a new Jeep Grand Cherokee 4xe. Sorry Elno, no Tesla at this time. Maybe eventually when I have to do daily commutes back to work. :p For now, we just want an EV to run local errands and the ability to tow our RV too. 6000 lbs tow capacity is an upgrade compared to our old Kia Sorento! BMW X-5 is really the better car with more EV range as well; however, it's just too darn expensive, plus it doesn't have a full size spare like the Jeep. We cannot tow with a tiny spare tire or witha run flat... So Jeep is pretty much our only choice to get the best of both worlds I think.

Combined rebate along with $7500 tax credit brought down the MSRP from $70k down to $50k! Not really sure if this is Jeep specific or the overall market softening? Hopefully the markup days are over... Anyway, after 3 years, we'll reassess whether to keep the Jeep or not. 1st time trying an American brand. Hope I wont regret it! :p Will write up some reviews later as I get more familiar with the car.

[speedpimp]

Congrats, Billi/y/e.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Thanks man, hope it’ll truly be worth your congrats! Just saw Jeep ranked 26th out of 30 manufacturers by CR. Never bought such a low ranking brand in my life, hope it won’t disappoint me in the next 39 months! :p oh well, like I said before, Jeep built the only vehicle that suits my current need. So fingers crossed!

[TheBenior]

GC 4XE around here are averaging $16-19k discounts from MSRP.

Anecdotally, it seems like Stellantis in particular built way too many high MSRP trim vehicles across their product line-up.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Their MSRPs are indeed ridiculously high. If it weren’t for the rebates and tax credit, I don’t think I could afford one.

I didn’t bother to check if BMW x5 PHEVs have similar discounts though, probably not. However, surely BMW’s not asking over MSRP still?

[CudaMan]

I had no idea these existed. I don't think I've ever seen one. But it looks really nice inside and out. Hope it serves you well! A 3yr lease on a brand new car should be trouble free.

[George]

Just saw Jeep ranked 26th out of 30 manufacturers by CR.

They used to say Jeep meant Just Empty Every Pocket.

I bet it's a cool ride. Enjoy!

[Crazed_Insanity]

There are only 2 vehicles that suits my mission requirement... a PHEV that can tow 6000 lbs! Those vehicles are: BMW X5 and Jeep 4xe. X5 sorta lost out because it's more expensive and doesn't have a full size spare! So Jeep is pretty much the only game in town for me.

I've see horror stories on 4xe forums, with brand new owners experience problems right off the bat. It is probably the most complicated vehicle Jeep has ever put together. Nevermind the complicated powertrain, it also has a fancy ride height adjustable air suspension... not to mention all the computer electronics. Anyway, some new owners had issues with suspensions making clunking noises within 1st few hundred miles... and dealers do not even know how to fix! Eventually lemon law allowed them to sell it back to the dealers...

Anyway, so far with around 150 miles in, luckily I'm still trouble free! :p Hopefully my 2023, being 2nd year in production, is improved and built with love?

My dealer also has a 7 day buy back guarantee... so if I experience anything bad right off the bat too, then I can just exchange the damn car! Hope it won't come to that. ;)

So far I do have one complaint though... that is this relative higher trim model doesn't come with rear cargo cover. I asked the dealer about giving me one because I'm not going to buy one for a leased vehicle! However, dealer claimed that it's on back order... nobody has any! She said she even tried to snatch one from some other new vehicle, but even top of the line model cars don't have them! Pretty unbelievable.

Anyway, whatever, if it can tow my RV camper well come summer time, then I can still be a happy camper I guess.

[MR2 Fan]

Considering trading in my RAV4 (nice but boring) in for a recent WRX, like 2021-ish, would be nice to have a turbo awd manual transmission car and probably keep it stock

[Tom Servo]

I am apparently completely copying MR2 Fan. With the situation with Michele's dad, she's talking about driving back and forth more often and will want to take the XC90 when she does. She's encouraging me to replace the 13 year old RAV4, and I just test drove a WRX today.

I fucking loved it.

Pretty much the perfect balance of sporty but livable for an old fart like me. Boxer engine still sounds great around 3k RPM, good clutch, slightly sloppy shifter but that's fine. Practical but fun. Pretty sure I'm buying one.

[Yw-slayer]

Do it.

[Tom Servo]

I think I'm gonna. All the US dealer systems are still fucked after being h4x0r3d, but the plan now is that I'll talk to the dealer on Wed. to work out the financial details and then take the car as soon as it arrives. Rally blue in the Limited trim.

[Yw-slayer]

DO IT!!!!!!!!!????!??!????!?!??eleventyjivesiz

[Cam]

Hi, I’m Cam and I approve of purchasing a WRX.

[George]

Aren't they pretty small, though? I say this as someone who admired my former next-door neighbor's twenty-teens WRX for years, but then I'd look back at my Honda Accord and think the Accord was larger...and it was not a big car inside for a tall person.

I always thought a Forester XT with a manual transmission would be more practical but still fun, but now I see they stopped making those many years ago. I imagine the ones that survive have all been modified by young guys trying to go faster and/or look cooler.

Funny story, though. And I've never ridden in a WRX (or even a regular Impreza, that I can remember), but I've always assumed they're very fast. Well, my neighbor gave his son a hand-me-down Ford Windstar minivan he had inherited from an uncle or something when the son finally got his license at eighteen. Some kids are like that these days - just not interested in driving.

Before our neighbors moved away after the young man graduated high school and was heading off to college in the same state his parents were moving back to, somehow it came up in conversation that the dad had never let the son drive the WRX. I asked him why not, and he replied with something like, "Are you kidding? Those things go from [some small number of] horsepower to over [some large number of] horsepower just about instantly when the turbo kicks in. You can't put a teenager who has only been driving a twenty-year-old minivan for a few months in something like that."

[Tom Servo]

Heh, well, surprising fun fact: It's about two inches longer and half an inch wider than our 2011 RAV4. I actually fit quite well in it, I was able to move the seat farther back than I was comfortable with, and I'm 6'2". I did adjust the driver's seat to what I wanted and then attempted to sit in the rear seat behind the driver's seat and was able to fit there as well, though headroom is a bit more of an issue in the back seat. It's actually quite roomy, no problems with size, the back row might actually be even more spacious than the second row in our XC90.

It's reasonably fast, though I think my racey driving days are long behind me (thanks, bicycles, now I have this thing where I don't want to drive like a jerk anymore). I don't know that it's going to blow the doors off of anything, but it's the only car in the segment that isn't FWD and can at least pretend to be practical. Good trunk space, four doors and rear seats that can accommodate full sized humans, and that boxer engine just sounds so damn good.

[George]

Cool. Didn't know they were so roomy inside - at least where it matters, for the driver. Hope it works out for you. :up:

[dodint]

I caught myself looking at X5s again last night. I hope the Saab doesn't find out.

[Cam]

The leg room in Subarus was a big selling point for me. I have long legs.

[Tom Servo]

I'm of the long torso variety, so headroom is generally an issue. Getting in and out of the back seat reminds me of my in-laws' Outback, it is not an easy car to get in and out of if you're 6 foot +. That said, I think most of my time will be in the front seat, and almost none of my friends are as tall as me, so there you go.

[Cam]

I'm all scrawny leg. I guess I could have been a good marathon runner. :lol:

Side note, it is now impossible to find jeans that are 30" waist and 36" leg. I seem to remember buying them when I was younger.

[Tom Servo]

Lol, yeah, I'm 6'2" and have a 30" leg on my jeans. I'm apparently all torso.

[CudaMan]

And I thought I had it bad. 5'11" (and a half, my gf says - I think she really wishes I was 6' :lol:) and a 32" inseam, and headroom can definitely be an issue for me. Most rearview mirrors are at eye level. I can't fit in an NB Miata with a helmet on and the top up. I do like to sit fairly upright though. The gangsta lean isn't comfortable at all. :)

Anyway, I approve of new WRX purchase. Even if the dealer did judge your manual abilities after seeing you pull up in a RAV4. ;)

[Tom Servo]

Lol, I pulled up in an XC90, so I think there was definite judgment.

The NB Miata was a lost cause - I'm still amazed I fit in an NC, but it was never going to happen in the NB.

[dodint]

Being tall torso'd has helped me share racecars with shorter people which has been convenient. I'm 6'4" and have the same inseam as Cuda.

[Godson]

I'm 6'1 and have a true 36in inseam from sit bone to floor. I usually wear a 34 depending on cut.

[Tom Servo]

Man, we have a lot of tall folks here.

[dodint]

Being able to look down on Tyler is what keeps me going in life.

[Phil_SS]

I'm all scrawny leg. I guess I could have been a good marathon runner. :lol:

Side note, it is now impossible to find jeans that are 30" waist and 36" leg. I seem to remember buying them when I was younger.

You can order exactly what you want straight from Levi's. The best jean size for me is a 35-29. I can wear a 34-30 but it is a little tighter than I like and the leg is longer than I want. But I can order just what I wan.t from Levi's

[George]

I started wearing LL Bean jeans recently since they have a store near me. They're pretty good.

Cam, here's a link to their 30 x 36 selections. There are six different kinds in many colors.

https://www.llbean.com/llb/shop/513284?page=mens-jeans&csp=f&bc=12-26&gnrefine=1*INSEAM*36in%5E1*WAIST*30in&sort_field=relevance&start=1&viewCount=48&nav=gnro-12&newPla=1

I wore Carhartt "B-17" jeans for twenty years or more after Levi's quality went to hell (sorry Phil), but they recently discontinued those. I bought a pair of the new kind of Carhartt jeans, labeled on the store shelf as the replacement for the B-17. I didn't try them on, since I had been buying the same size for so long and they were always the same.

It turned out the cut was all wrong (waist too low, or crotch too high), and the same waist size as before was too big - "vanity sizing", I think they call it. Even with a belt, I had to keep tugging them up as I walked. And, the material was downright flimsy compared to the thicker B-17s. I wore them twice and then donated them to the local thrift store. Life's too short to keep clothes that don't fit right or are otherwise "wrong", I've decided in recent years.

I've been thinking about ordering a pair of Round House (https://www.round-house.com/) jeans made in Shawnee, Oklahoma.

[Godson]

Being able to look down on Tyler is what keeps me going in life.

Lofl.

Not my fucked up wobble? Lol

[Kchrpm]

Recently I've been mostly purchasing Duluth Trading Company DuluthFlex Fire Hose pants. I like the feel and durability of the material.

[Cam]

You can order exactly what you want straight from Levi's. The best jean size for me is a 35-29. I can wear a 34-30 but it is a little tighter than I like and the leg is longer than I want. But I can order just what I wan.t from Levi's

Well, no, I can't. I want to order 31x36, but that size does not exist. The smallest waist in 36 leg is 32. Longest leg in 31 waist is 34.

When I was in my 20s, my bro and I bought our Levi's at Mark's Work Warehouse. He is a slender 6'4" and wore 29x36 at the time. I wore 30x36. Those sizes no longer exist.

Anyway, this is a car buying thread not a pants buying thread! :lol:

[JoeW]

My son is 6’ and he fits in our NC with room to spare.

[George]

My son has to wear black jeans at his job. The best-fitting ones we could find were at the Levi's outlet store. They're 511 Slim Fit, size 30 x 32, and the denim is all bunched up under his belt because he's so lean. He could probably fit in 28 x 32. He's about 5'11" now at sixteen.

[George]

Anyway, this is a car buying thread not a pants buying thread! :lol:

:thppt:

[dodint]

We're discussing junk in a trunk either way.

[Cam]

:lol:

[Yw-slayer]

SHE'ZA GOT ME SPENNNDIN'

[Cam]

Every time we see another Outback Wilderness, we're like, "Our car looks badass." :D

[Yw-slayer]

Every time we see another Outback Wilderness, we're like, "Our car looks badass." :D

TRUE DAT

[Tom Servo]

Ooh boy, over $100 a month more for insurance for the WRX :/

[Yw-slayer]

WORTH IT

Life is too short to be stuck in a RAV4 for the next 5+ years, man. Plus this is probably the last full-petrol wrx.

[George]

^ Agreed, from the guy who drove an automatic, four-cylinder Accord from his thirties into his fifties.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I fucking loved it.

Pretty much the perfect balance of sporty but livable for an old fart like me. Boxer engine still sounds great around 3k RPM, good clutch, slightly sloppy shifter but that's fine. Practical but fun. Pretty sure I'm buying one.

It's time to quantify exactly how much of this 'fucking love' is worth...

Is it worth additional $100/month? Hmmm.... it'll be up to Swervo to wonder about that...

[neanderthal]

Ooh boy, over $100 a month more for insurance for the WRX :/

I was paying $4XX a month for my 1991 Benz 250TD and 2013 BMW 535i. I called progressive and a helpful chap helped me by rewriting my policy (i did lower some of my coverages at the same time because fuck that noise!) and i'm now paying $12XX a year.

My bike, which is newer than both cars, is $12XX a year.

That said, I get immense satisfaction from driving enjoying all of my vehicles.

[TheBenior]

Ooh boy, over $100 a month more for insurance for the WRX :/
Barring any CA market wonkiness, if you've been with your current company for 5+ years, you can probably save money by switching companies. All the companies do the boiling frog method of raising rates whether or not you've had a claim.

I've got $500 deductibles, coverage of $250k person/$500k total for other party medical, and $100k other party collision for $1313/yr for a 2014 CX-5 and a 2019 GTI. I'm going to presume that one's odds of hitting a super expensive car in Southern California are higher than in Chicago, but even if I went to $250k, I doubt it would've add more than an extra $100/yr.

When I'd previously gotten quotes on the WRX and GTI, they had the same exact rates.

[Tom Servo]

Yeah, according to State Farm, it's entirely in the comprehensive portion of the insurance, the liability isn't an issue at all, and they said it's entirely because it's a new car vs. a 13 year old one. It will be an uphill battle to convince Michele to even think about leaving State Farm, she's been a loyal customer since her teens. That said, I'm wondering how much I can bring it down by only insuring one driver, as she has no interest in driving stick.

LA's expensive enough that I could really just eat out less often and break even, but it's still jarring.