Formula 1 2024

[Crazed_Insanity]

Oh, okay, yeah, that makes more sense to get rid of the turbo related MGU... This additional piece doesn't really add to the show nor does it help further R&D to help actual road vehicles perform better... Kinda pointless.

[FaultyMario]

drs is also expected to join grooved tires and in-race refueling in the failed gimmicks resting place.

[Rare White Ape]

What is your reason for calling refuelling a gimmick?

I quite liked it. It's an additional strategy dimension. Makes the pit stops take longer, and causes the drivers to make a set of tyres last longer to line up with the fuel window.

I would welcome its return, because a smaller fuel tank also means a smaller car.

[JoeW]

Yeah I’d be down with that as well.

[G'day Mate]

I used to always like the pre-race speculation about whether BAR had under-fuelled or if they were actually fast this time.
'
Turns out they were just cheating and running under-weight during the race

[FaultyMario]

What is your reason for calling refuelling a gimmick?

This cunning stunt introduced refueling just to give an advantage to gas guzzling turbo BMWs in the early eighties.

just look at him, anything associated with him sucks balls.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zl68OQPunZs

[Rare White Ape]

That was, like, two whole non-refuelling eras ago.

[Tom Servo]

Also, there's that whole "a broken clock is right twice a day" thing.

[Rare White Ape]

That's a lot of pictures attached to walls with pins and strings being threaded between them.

The only things we know for sure are:

-Hamilton is signed for Ferrari next year
-Horner is in a very awkward position
-Jos Verstappen is trying to oust Horner

One thing I know for sure is that stability is the preferred state of affairs, and destabilising a successful and good thing benefits nobody. Therefore Jos should fuck off and leave things well alone, as he and his kid will not benefit from a team without a successful principal and no genius chief technical officer.

Wherever Newey goes, the trophies go.

There are rumours floating around. I think me and Faulty called it first... 7 or 8 long weeks ago, if the current Adrian Newey rumnours are true. Ferrari-Hamilton superteam.

Good job Jos, you fuckwit. You connived only to cost your boy a WDC beyond 2024. Heh.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Both HAM and Newey have never worked for Ferrari before, that should be a good challenge for both of them…

Adrian had pretty much worked for all top F1 teams… Ferrari is probably the last one?

[FaultyMario]

That was, like, two whole non-refuelling eras ago.

Did they stop refueling between 1982 and 2010? Is it a coincidence that it is the time frame when Bernie was making babies?

Of course not, these two things go hand in hand.


And yes, it seems Newey has given formal notice of his desire to stop working for Red Bull Racing.

[samoht]

Bang! BBC now reporting that Adrian Newey is leaving Red Bull
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/articles/cmm3v9ny78eo

I'm sure they won't be too bothered, after all, Williams and McLaren continued winning championships long after Newey left.... oh wait, no they didn't.

[Fiat500]

Holy crap, that's huge.

[samoht]

Newey leaving RB is bigger news than Hamilton leaving Mercedes IMHO.

So, where next for Newey?
I understand he's stated a reluctance to consider Merc, simply because they were the dominant enemy for so long, it would 'feel wrong' to him.
In principle any team funded at the budget cap would be a viable option nowadays, there are no 'minnows' any more.
I'm assuming salary won't be an issue anywhere as he likely has enough and either team would happily pay through the nose for someone who makes more difference than getting the best driver.
The 2026 engine regs are shaping up to make engines a major, perhaps decisive, factor once more. Newey would not want to be back in the situation of making a great car and seeing it flop on-track due to lousy Renault engines, as from 2014. So he, like the drivers, is to some extent trying to guess which of the six engine manufacturers will get '26 right (Ford, Mercedes, Ferrari, Renault, Honda or Audi). I'd rule out Audi as they're new and Renault as they're Renault, so either Ferrari, Honda (Aston) or a Mercedes customer (McLaren or Williams) as an outside choice.
Aston is a real possibility, dependant on whether he's confident he'd get along with Laurence Stroll. When Alonso finally retires, you'd assume AM would easily attract another great driver if they had Newey on board.
Assuming he's ok with Stroll, if I were him I'd decide whether I and my wife would or would not like to spend the next five years living in Italy, and choose Ferrari or Aston on that basis. After all either team has a fair chance of yielding yet another run of Newey championship winners, and when you're 65 I think that getting to choose where you live is quite significant.
I'd say Ferrari is most likely 60%, with Aston as a less probable but real possibility 25% if he doesn't want to live in Italy or fears Ferrari politics. A return to McLaren or Williams is maybe 5% chance each, and perhaps Audi also 5%.

What next at Red Bull?
Surely Horner will be fired after this.
With rumours already circulating that the Red Bull/Ford engine isn't looking that good, I imagine Max would be seeking to make next year his last with the team if possible.

[Crazed_Insanity]

All good things must come to an end I guess.

I recall Frank Williams was kind of an asshole? He thought he will be successful no matter what. Didn't give a damn about drivers and didn't see Newey as a true partner?

McLaren implosion is kinda similar to what RBR is currently going thru? Stupid power grabs from within the org...

Going to Mercedes and help them defeat RBR seems wrong. Going to Ferrari helping Ham to defeat Max probably also won't look too right either... :p

Aston will probably be the most neutral place... plus he already has a good relationship with Aston Martin, right?

However, I personally don't like the Strolls... and Ferrari's internal politics may also be very annoying as hell...

At age 65, he really has nothing else to prove. I think he just might decided to pursue something else outside of F-1? I'd say there's a 33% chance of him leaving F-1... or join Ferrari or join Aston...

If I were him, I'd probably start designing sailboats or other things. Anyway, whatever he decides, it should be good for F-1! We don't need to give Max anymore technical advantages! ;)

[JoeW]

Even if Newey leaves after this season and Max stays one more year...Max still gets a WDC in 2025 even if the RBR does zero upgrades over the winter break. Max is that fast and the car is that good. After that...could get fun.

[JoeW]

HAAS baby. Ferrari power without all those pesky politics :)

[FaultyMario]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GMCSZhGXcAAxXT_.jpg

[Crazed_Insanity]

Oh yeah! Forgot about Andretti! Andretti need to get Bobby Rahal on his team… I think Rahal was the key that got Newey to Join Jaguar back then? Which eventually became RB?

[Rare White Ape]

Did they stop refueling between 1982 and 2010? Is it a coincidence that it is the time frame when Bernie was making babies?

Of course not, these two things go hand in hand.

Refuelling was banned between 1984 and 1993, making a return in 1994.

But I’m really unsure of what your argument is.

[FaultyMario]

I didn't find the correct interview, but somewhere, I think he was talking about the sprinklers idea, Bernie mentions that "artificial" stuff like rain has proven to work and he gives the example of the artificially low fuel loads.

Also, Bernard Charles Ecclestone = everything that is bad with the world.

[Yobbo NZ]

On a happy note, I found out I work with Oscars' uncle.
The short version of the contract saga was amusing.

[JoeW]

So who’s leaving Audi/Sauber next year when Hulk gets there?

Nvm…looks like they are also trying to get Sainz…so I guess Bottas and Zhou are both gone.

[FaultyMario]

they need bottas.

an experienced driver who makes few mistakes and who is familiar with the team.

[JoeW]

Agree. But the article/rumor said they are still trying to secure Sainz. Hulk was essentially because they needed a German.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Bottas is getting old. Yeah, he has had a few more season with the team, but Hulk and/or Sainz's experience levels should be plenty sufficient to make up for losing Bottas...

I'd agree it's probably preferable to keep Bottas so that he can help you track your improvements over the seasons for the sake of continuity? Otherwise, I think the Hulk/Sainz matchup is a great combo for the new team. They're both great 'value' drivers.

[FaultyMario]

Hulkenberg is way overrated, imho. I'd take Ocon any day of the week.

I mean, people say that Yuki's main weakness is that he can't see past the fog of war, but being focused on the battlefield can be a strength, take Ocon for example; if the guy gets a sniff of blood, he becomes a machine and I've never seen that sort of determination in Hulk.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Hulk never had a consistent enough of an F1 career for me to gauge him properly. All I could tell is that the guy can be pretty fast and consistent at least compared to his teammates. Considering just his current performance at Haas, surely Kevin should be the defacto team leader because he has more experience with the team, but it’s clear Kevin is rarely the faster teammate.

Anyway, maybe it’s good for Hulk to be racing for bunch of different teams over the years. He’s obviously very adaptable and compared well to his teammates. Whereas for Ocon and Yuki, their careers seems to be stuck and buried inside of their slow cars. At least Yuki kicked Ricciardo’s ass, but I don’t think Ocon achieved the same at Renault.

Anyway, I’m just a bit surprised that they don’t value Bottas’ services so far…I just realized that he is still younger than Hulk! But I suppose Hulk is there to replace Zhou, and Sainz is just somebody who’s trending and available right now? Plus, Sainz’s future is still wide open at this stage.

[FaultyMario]

Yeah, talk is all moot as Hulks has been formally announced.

Why they haven't announced Carlos is beyond me. He is not going to Mercedes, unless Logan is sacked before the end of the season and Kimi takes his place at Williams. And that would mean either a short deal for Sainz or an ultimatum for George, neither of which sound likely.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Scientific explanation of why F1 V10s made us so happy! :)


https://youtu.be/IY7GGiV8fKM?si=9BDMbvvfnDKzeC50

[G'day Mate]

Oh that is fucking cool. Why hasn’t Rick Beato done this?

[G'day Mate]

4284

:smh: I was hoping it would be more than just blue highlights

[FaultyMario]

DRS trains are trulli stupid.

[FaultyMario]

They still have to start the race on the last tires they qualified?

That's the stupidest rule ever.

[FaultyMario]

Back on the Danica hate-train...

What does she bring to the transmission? besides awkward changes of topic...

[Crazed_Insanity]

Must’ve been a very frustrating sprint race for HAM!

Glad to see Ricciardo doing well finally!

[Freude am Fahren]

They still have to start the race on the last tires they qualified?

That's the stupidest rule ever.
No.

[FaultyMario]

Thank god for that, or Hamilton would be in for an afternoon of pain.

I mean, he will be... But not because of his medium tires.

[FaultyMario]

I hate the vibes from the Miami GP track.

With some imagination, it could very well be a nice companion to Circuit Gilles Villeneuve, but they gave it too many unnecessary track walls. It's kind of like a lame version of Longbeach. I hope they'd tried to make it a new version of Surfer's Paradise, but that thought never crossed their mind.

This track has deep identity issues.

[FaultyMario]

And that freeway overpass? Ugh!

[FaultyMario]

Sainz: "something is wrong with the car"

No shit, Sherlock!

[Fiat500]

I think Sainz was spooking himself at that point.

The race ended up surprisingly enjoyable, I thought. The result helped, of course. Now I'm just waiting for Blerpa's reaction. 😁

[Crazed_Insanity]

Wow. That was not expected…

[JoeW]

Really great race. Close battles everywhere. Surprised really.

Hamilton crying about the cone going missing in the chicane was truly amusing. He’s done probably thousands of laps here in sim and on track…and he tries to say he’ll forget where the curb is with the cone missing. Hilarious.

And Perez on the first lap…bruh…that shit was ugly. Trying to be the Mexican torpedo…

[Crazed_Insanity]

Glad Max didn’t get taken out there!

Lando winning with Max finishing 2nd made the win way more meaningful and memorable!

RB is finally starting to show its crack…

[dodint]

Hamilton crying about the cone going missing in the chicane was truly amusing. He’s done probably thousands of laps here in sim and on track…and he tries to say he’ll forget where the curb is with the cone missing. Hilarious.


A friend of Tyler and I's used to compete in Time Trial events. He'd do all the practice sessions like normal and then on his out lap for the first competition session he'd hit all the braking zone cones to take away people's braking points. :lol:

[JoeW]

That’s funny :) Shit this cone isn’t even visible until you’re around the wall and right on top of it. That’s what makes it so funny.

[Rare White Ape]

A friend of Tyler and I's used to compete in Time Trial events. He'd do all the practice sessions like normal and then on his out lap for the first competition session he'd hit all the braking zone cones to take away people's braking points. :lol:

I did this once in the original Forza Motorsport. Me and a friend were team mates and while we practiced for a league race we discovered that you could knock out the cones for one of the braking zones and they wouldn't respawn. So we practiced braking using a different trackside object as our marker.

Everyone died on lap 2 except us.

[Phil_SS]

I hadn't watched a race in ages. Flipped on the TV while I was folding clothes yesterday and checked the main channels and this was on and I saw that Lando was in first. Continued to watch to see if Max was just going to overtake him and drive off and then I could flip to something else but Lando was on fire and pulled out and stayed there.

Great race to watch and seeing someone win there first GP is a special event. :up:

[samoht]

A great result - for Lando, for McLaren and for the sport.

Until further evidence emerges I'm going to treat it like Singapore last year, a one-off case where the generally all-conquering Red Bull car didn't work well on that specific race circuit. One swallow doesn't make a spring, much as we'd like Max's dominance to crumble into truly competitive sport.


Magnussen's tactical fouls tell me that the rules need a tweak - if you get or stay ahead of someone clearly unfairly, the stewards can order you to give the place back, if you don't do so within one lap of being ordered, then it's a drive through penalty. You can't unfairly block quicker cars just because you don't care about your own result and are only aiming to protect your teammate. I don't blame Kevin, he's using the rules as they stand, it's the rules that need fixing.

[Crazed_Insanity]

At least McLarens appeared to be genuinely fast in Miami. Piastri was pretty fast too until he had to change out his front wing! I also heard that Piastri didn't have all the updates Lando had... so for the next race, both cars will have all the updates..., but will the new updates help them on the next track? We'll have to wait and see.

It seems McLaren engineers have figured something out, unlike before. It also looked like RB really had no answer... Yeah, the safety car was helping Lando in terms of strategy; however, RB should've been able to quickly catch and pass other cars... I think it's clear RB is already not the team it used to be. With so much political crap going on behind the scene, RB and Max are already pretty amazing with its current performance. However, hopefully McLaren's performance gain is for real... and it looks like Ferraris are very close too.

Anyway, I was really surprised to see Lando winning by such a 'huge' margin. Something about RB or Max was clearly off that weekend... or McLaren got it perfectly right?

Regarding Kevin's blocking tactics... not really sure about that. I'd say let them race and let them crash if they couldn't behave properly! His behavior certainly made the show more interesting overall! ;)

[JoeW]

Apparently Max’s car suffered damage after destroying the cone and its base.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Oh, was that the main reason why Max couldn’t catchup?

Okay, then never mind. I was being a bit too optimistic! :p

[JoeW]

I have no idea. I said apparently. Horner said it after the race. Might be a way to explain away why McLaren was better…or it could be actually true.

[dodint]

I've read elsewhere there was a hole in the floor of Max's car.

[Crazed_Insanity]

https://racer.com/2024/05/07/verstappen-undeterred-by-miami-floor-damage-but-horner-admits-it-cost-him-time/

Horner insisted the car was damaged, but Max said he couldn't tell the difference. He was running at the same pace before and after so he couldn't really tell. :|

Reporters pressed on asking if he could've won without that safety car? Max was like who cares? What's the point with all these if if ifs? If my mom have balls she'd be my dad. So? :p

I guess Max is not only F1's next Senna on track, but also the sport's new Kimi off track! :D

[JoeW]

During the race he said he couldn’t get it to turn. Could have lost a bit of downforce

[FaultyMario]

he had been complaining about turns 7 and 8 from like the beginning of the race

L1: Verstappen Certainly a lot more understeer. Can I have more open diff high-speed?

L8: Verstappen It’s quite tricky also with the rear in seven-eight, quite inconsistent.

L10: Verstappen Yeah, struggling a lot out of one and seven-eight. Car’s very inconsistent.

He went on about it

[JoeW]

F1 drivers…never happy.

[Rare White Ape]

I guess Max is not only F1's next Senna on track

So he will only get three championships?

[Crazed_Insanity]

So his car was damaged from the start?

Anyway, clearly the car was not damaged by hitting the zone.
https://youtu.be/g1_RyPJBsoo?si=7RzBH2IkbiGrRlI5

He seems pretty serious about that… :p

[Crazed_Insanity]

So he will only get three championships?

It’s possible if Lando could steal it this year and then he moves to Mercedes and then never win another one again! :p

[CudaMan]

Max: "Can I have more open diff high-speed?"

This I find very interesting. Is he asking permission? Do they send that signal to the car from the pit wall (unlikely, I figure this is still not legal)? As a driver I'd think if he wants to change a diff setting he'll just do it, and the change should instantly show up on the engineers' screens in the pits.

[Crazed_Insanity]

What does open diff high-speed even mean?

I'm assuming it's some kind of wing adjustment? Less down force and higher top speed or vice versa? If it's a wing adjustment, then they'll have to do that during a pitstop?

[FaultyMario]

This I find very interesting. Is he asking permission?


i think so. i believe that for reasons related to unwanted pushing of buttons, drivers can only play with a narrower band of settings than are available from the menu. so, if they want to access a different preset, they need to be coached from the wall.

also, the diff settings have a big effect on management of the rear tires, so, maybe if he deviates from the pre race plan, he needs to check with the strategists.

[dodint]

i think so. i believe that for reasons related to unwanted pushing of buttons, drivers can only play with a narrower band of settings than are available from the menu. so, if they want to access a different preset, they need to be coached from the wall.


Too bad he doesn't drive for Penske.

[CudaMan]

What does open diff high-speed even mean?
He wants to lessen the locking of the differential (or "open" it up). Generally more lock = more understeer, less lock = more oversteer. A diff will have different amounts of locking on acceleration and deceleration, and a certain amount of preload (which could loosely be defined as "mid" corner). I'm speculating here but since this quote by Max doesn't specify entry or exit, he may be talking about the preload, and it may change with speed which would be fascinating. I'm sure it's possible.

On this wheel (https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article/f1-explains-how-f1-steering-wheels-are-designed-how-they-work-and-what-all.2B2TgpuPz8VZYwiHtgTII5) you can see the Entry and Mid adjustment wheels at the top of the wheel.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Oh, yeah, that makes more sense. Thanks for the explanation!

Looking at that wheel, looks like drivers could make those adjustments on the fly while driving without taking their hands off the wheel!

[FaultyMario]

imma take advantage of the driver talking...

Bryan, i know f1 teams are yuge and it makes sense to have the driver's engineer be the only radio point of contact. but I'm sure that it also means that the engineer, lambiase in this case, keeps with him a couple of cheat sheets to help him hasten his responses to the driver.

so, I'm wondering, what does a driver engineer do during a race in a series with fewer shop hands?

[CudaMan]

The engineer is the main point of contact for anything and everything. Car issues, strategy, setup feedback, calling the green, liaising between driver and series if a message needs to be relayed, and sometimes general encouragement or advice.

Some engineers want to know anytime I make a change, whether in practice or race. "Brake bias rear 2 clicks." They'll put that in their session notes. Others are more in the "just drive the car, it's yours" camp.

Everyone's on the radio, but most just listen. Keeps everyone on the same page with everything that's going on.

Also if there's a long safety car we can get bored and talk about whatever on the radio. :lol:

[Kchrpm]

When the Haas team principal cut in during an F1 race a few years ago to tell the driver to stop complaining on the radio because the entire team could hear him bad mouthing them is when I realized that everyone could hear.

[Rare White Ape]

Also if there's a long safety car we can get bored and talk about whatever on the radio. :lol:

And it can be an opportunity to plug the sponsor :D

https://www.tiktok.com/@bubbawallace/video/7294409476814458158

[Crazed_Insanity]

I just noticed our orange ex-president showed up at the pit of the orange team McLaren in Miami?

Wow! Did he MMGA? Made McLaren Great Again? :D

Man, I can’t wait til the next race to see where McLaren is at relative to others… was that for real or just a one off?

[Crazed_Insanity]

Based on qualifying results, looks like McLaren’s for real!

RB hasn’t really imploded yet, but clearly it’s no longer as dominant as before?

Ferrari is really going all out, hiring bunch of key folks from other teams…. Whatever happened to cost caps?

Anyway, I wonder what’s the key reason for McLaren’s resurgence. Besides those couple of amazing drivers, who are the next generation of Newey/Brawn types?

[JoeW]

Not sure if anyone watched the pre race interviews…but watching the Sky F1 presenters get ready to talk to Max as he walks onto the track…he’s currently interviewing with someone who doesn’t have credentials to get on the grid…hilariously security just grabs the guy by arm and drags him off the grid. It was quite a funny moment.

Missing Crofty a LOT. Such a distinct voice and energy that can’t be matched.

[JoeW]

So…more like a 99% chance of safety car :)

Brilliant race at the end. So close.

New announcer sucks btw.

[Tom Servo]

That was a great race. I can't even remember the last time I tensed up like that near the end of the race, trying to will someone on.

[Crazed_Insanity]

When HAM was dominating, we had Max as underdog to make things interesting. Now Max is dominating, glad we have Lando! I wonder exactly what is faster, Lando or his new car? When he was ahead of Max, Lando could pull away. When he was behind Max, Lando could close the gap…

Anyway, it is increasingly look like RB’s dominance is ending… things should get more interesting. :)

[Fiat500]

Good to see McLaren back in contention, instead of circling the drain, like Williams are still doing.

With cars now the size of small continents, Imola isn't an ideal track, but that could have been worse.

[CudaMan]

I listened to the Sky feed and found the race pretty boring until near the end. Maybe F1TV would have been the better choice this time. I go back and forth. I like Karun's insights, I think Jolyon is really good, and whenever Button is in the booth it's a bonus. For the host, I can go either way on Crofty or Jacques. This new guy seemed OK for a first try. Far better than I could do. :)

Both channels switch up their color commentators so much I never know who I'm gonna get. It's a crap shoot.

-

Now that McLaren and Ferrari have significantly closed the gap to RedBull and made it close, Sergio being a few tenths slower than Max may no longer be good enough...

I was super impressed seeing Lando smoothly drift the back end of his car in the closing laps, driving a loose car well. Seems the new McLaren has a real strong front end now. Piastri was minimal with his steering lock all weekend too.

[JoeW]

Yeah Perez not getting into Q3 is going to be a big problem. It’s only .5 sec but that’s an eternity right now.

Side note…Max just passed Ham in career win percentage.

[FaultyMario]

Will the teams deny Andretti entrance now that it has hired the man responsible for the 2026 regulations (https://x.com/AndrettiGlobal/status/1792947647088640044)to its technical team?

[Kchrpm]

Now sign Adrian Newey.

[Crazed_Insanity]

The Andretti Gardening team would become a serious contender if that's the case... :D

If Newey doesn't want to go to Italy, why would he wants Andretti over Williams? Unless he just likes 'new' challenges? Anyway, Andretti basing it's operations in UK could be a plus for Newey.

[JoeW]

Annoyed a bit by the announcers today while watching FP1/2 today. Russell had messaged in about a bad vibration under braking going down to the chicane. The announcers kind of took some swings at him by implying nothing seemed to be wrong and drivers often over complain when they aren’t driving well.

I watched the replay back a few times and you could clearly see a quite serious high frequency vibration in his steering wheel. If I saw it, at least look at the replay before saying it’s in his head.

[XHawkeye]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GOaZ-d0XsAAWJSH.jpg

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GOaNpFoXYAAv9h_.jpg

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GOaE-mkXIAAzGJO.jpg

[JoeW]

Can we please stop going to Monaco…FP1 is more exciting. So bad.

[Fiat500]

Omfg that was insanely boring.

[samoht]

I'm happy for Charles.

But yeah, a "race" in which the top ten drivers all finish in the positions they started doesn't have much to recommend it.

However, Monaco has a lot of special history with F1, so I think it would be a shame to drop it before at least making some serious efforts to improve the racing.

I have a pet theory that running the circuit in the opposite direction (anti-clockwise) would work better - you'd have a big stop into Antony Noghes at the end of the start/finish straight, you could zig-zag left-right at the first opportunity after Tabac instead of through the Nouvelle Chicane to give a long flat out run up through the tunnel to Portier, and Sainte Devote would be more of a braking zone and thus opportunity if approached downhill.

Otherwise you have to start doing more involved things perhaps involving structures built out over the water.

With a determined approach I think you could combine the historic track with some actual racing, which would be the best of both worlds.

[JoeW]

Ocon…not impressed.
Perez…5th in the WDC is not going to be good enough.
Tsunoda…looking like he wants a RBR job.
Kmag/Perez…dudes…wtf. Perez moved over on him after checking his mirrors…but Mag, wtf do you think you were going to do there?
Max…echoing my thoughts by asking for a pillow during the race due to the boredom.
LeClerc…finally got one. This should give him some confidence moving forward. Well done.
Piastri interview was full of digs about the lack of action due to the size of the cars.

[Rare White Ape]

I don't think they should change a single thing about the Monaco GP.

I just accept that it is boring and move on.

Monaco is one of the most pure connections there is to F1's early days.

After all, F1 has always been boring.

[Crazed_Insanity]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GOaE-mkXIAAzGJO.jpg

How can this be boring?!?!

Wish I could dine there during race someday… wonder how much would that freaking meal cost?!?!? :lol:

Anyway, I’m beginning to wonder if Kevin destroyed Checco’s car on purpose. To help Ferrari get closer to the constructors championship. Plus, Carlos should’ve been out of the race if it weren’t for Kevin!

That was a totally unnecessary bone headed move. Kind reminded me of Russell trying to pass Bottas in a Williams.

I’m surprised that Kevin didn’t get any more penalties?

[JoeW]

I’m not of the opinion that it was 100% on KMag. Perez checked his mirror on that side and moved slightly to pinch him. Either way Perez wasn’t going to score any points.

I absolutely hate some of these restart rules btw. Sainz should have been out or at least restart at the back. The whole pack went by him by the time it was red flagged. That’s super annoying. Modern GPS shows exactly where each car was at the time of red flag…so just start them in that order.

[Tom Servo]

I'm with you on that. If you back out of it at that point, you just are almost asking to be collected by someone else. Perez did not give KMag room to exist and KMag had no reason to back out of it at that point knowing that they could both coexist.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Checco was somehow sandwiched by the 2 Haas cars unable to out accelerate them for some reason. Maybe he had a bad exit or braked too hard to avoid the green Sauber in front…

Maybe he’s just not experienced enough to actually race with back markers?

Anyway, going 3 wide with both Haas trying to pass the Mexican was just too optimistic.

I understand if you no longer go for that gap, you’re no longer a race car driver… but anyways, I can understand that was sort of a racing incident, but Sainz able to restart in 3rd didn’t seem fair. Perhaps it was all within the rules, but it just looked like Ferrari was very lucky that weekend.

Leclerc definitely deserved that win, but I wouldn’t be surprised to learn Ferrari ‘encouraged’ Haas drivers to take that RB out.

[CudaMan]

The cars are simply too big, as we've been saying, plus this time the lap 1 red flag took away pit strategy for the rest of the race, odd gaps excepted. I'm still baffled Mercedes bungled that undercut on Max when they had Russell playing front gunner to slow him down. RB played their pitlane games but still, Mercedes should have been able to pull that off here of all places.

I'm sure F1 makes good money on the race with all the wealth surrounding it. If I had FU money I'd go there and eat trackside, even if there's little to no passing. Saturday is the real action and it's usually pretty good. Seeing some of the epic qualy laps pulled off at Monaco over the years is worth it. The place really tests the drivers and their precision during high risk.

[JoeW]

When they are circulating over 10secs! per lap slower on Sunday than in Qualifying you know something needs to change.

[Crazed_Insanity]

LeClerc’s pole time was 1:10 and HAM’s fastest lap was 1:14. Slowest qualifying time was 1:13, not sure what’s the slowest race lap is… are you saying it’d be in the 1:20 range?

[JoeW]

This is the problem when you don’t watch the races…you don’t see what happened beyond fastest laps and highlight reels.


During the race most of the first 3/4 of the race everyone was in the 1:20s. They didn’t pick the pace up until much later when they were trying to prevent undercuts etc. They were basically just managing because they were all trying to go without pitting.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Ah, I see.

Tire management like that is for sure annoying in an actual race. Rules should be in place that encourages drivers to go all out rather than being in conserve mode.

So is this delta particularly bad at Monaco or this is pretty much happening at every GP weekend?

[FaultyMario]

dude, the last genuinely exciting race at Monaco was in the previous century.

don't change anything, i like it like it is.

maybe go back to the old practice sessions on Thursday. wasn't the GP part of some Marian fest (Saint Devote?) of the principality?

[JoeW]

It’s only a major problem at Monaco because you can’t pass. So LeClerc could run as slow as he needed…the front guys only started to pick up the pace to avoid people falling into certain pit windows etc.

[samoht]

A certain level of tyre conservation is almost always in play, at some point the time saved lapping quicker is outweighed by that lost with an extra pit stop. (Qatar last year was an exception due to the mandated 18 lap maximum stint length)

Some tracks give easier chances to pass than others. If passing is easy you do the 'optimum' number of stops for the quickest race time. If it's difficult you make fewer stops and slow down to look after the tyres more, because if you make an extra stop you won't be able to get back past those who stayed out. Monaco is where passing is hardest so you normally see the minimum number of stops, one, to fulfil the obligation of running two different tyres.

This time Perez and Magnussen both thought the other should give way, leading to them testing the safety barriers and leaving carbon fibre confetti all down the Avenue d'Ostende. The race had to be stopped, giving everyone the chance to fit their second tyre after one lap.

They therefore set off from lap 3/76 with no requirement to stop again, knowing that whoever did so would probably lose places they'd never regain. So the backing off was twice as much as normal at Monaco, which is already the most tyre-saving race on the calendar, as everyone ensured they'd keep their tyres going to the finish.

Tsunoda was told to drive so slowly he ended up shipping over 20 secs to Hamilton, giving him a free stop which he took, that then gave Verstappen one ahead.

The Saubers ended up needing to stop anyway, and Bottas at least managed to put a miraculous pass on Sargeant down the hill from Casino.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Anyway, Monaco needs somebody like Senna in order to make it more interesting.

RB must really be not suited for this track to see Max so off pace... and to see Perez racing with the Haas cars. I guess Max is, after all, no Ayrton Senna.

This track historically rewards drivers with the best skill and biggest balls. I was really surprised to see RB to be that off pace. Anyway, I think any one of the Ferrari/McLaren drivers could've won the race if they could snatch the pole.

If current trend can continue, hopefully Ferrari and McLaren will actually be able to have a chance to fight for the championship?

Even if team RB falls apart and car development lacking due to internal politics, hopefully Max will still be able to put up a fight. It is increasingly looking like RB technical advantages are slowly being erased by McLaren and Ferrari.

[samoht]

Ocon…not impressed.

Ocon is Ocoff, this year will be his last at Alpine.

News of his next seat is apparently 'coming soon'.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Ocon turned Russian... :lol:

[FaultyMario]

Red Bull has confirmed they like the peso.

Sergio Perez will be their second driver for the the 2025 and 2026 seasons.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I don't recall what happened back then when Max and Carlos were teammates? Wonder what RB is trying to avoid.

Hope RB got a good deal with Perez? Doesn't seem to make sense to go for Perez and skip Carlos IMHO. I can understand RB making that decision if Perez had been consistently scoring points, but Perez has repeatedly suffered performance drop offs during mid-season. I wonder why...

Where as Carlos has proven himself to be super adaptable and consistent regardless of which team he's in... Of course he's always be consistently the #2 driver though... However, if it's a #2 you're looking for, I don't know anyone else better than Sainz right now. Anyway, I hope he finds a decent ride.

[CudaMan]

Word is Perez brings money, which somehow helps RB with budget cap stuff (or pays Max's salary?).

[Crazed_Insanity]

Oh! I guess that makes more sense now... Carlos Slim > Carlos Sainz :D

[FaultyMario]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GPZMfDsbcAA8bJy.jpg

The FIA claims:

• Improved safety standards
• Lighter cars
• Shorter, narrower chassis
• Narrower tires (minimal change from what can be seen on the render)
• Active aero
• Lesser floor effect
• No wheel arches
• No DRS...
• ...but new 'Override' mode



That is the stupidest front wing regulation. It's going to get more loopholed than the penis nose...

https://media.formula1.com/content/dam/fom-website/article-images/features/2014/3/mdFB-sutton-2013-dpl1416ma170.jpg.img.1536.high.jpg

[Crazed_Insanity]

Dicknose will love that design!

[FaultyMario]

I do not find it in me to root for Russell.

That kid is just too damn English.

[Crazed_Insanity]

It’s interesting they could match each others time like that…

Wonder if Mercedes sabotaged the other english dude for his lack of loyalty for going to Ferrari…

Speaking of Ferrari, dang, what a difference a week can make? From winning to couldn’t quality in Q3 for both cars?

What an interesting season…

[JoeW]

Perez celebrating his new contract with a Q3 exit. Well done.

I have a feeling Russell is going to drive pretty dirty at the start of the race. We’ll see if he punts himself or someone else…or both.

This will be quite hilarious if Merc pulls itself to the front and Ferrari falls back just before Hamilton walks in.

[Fiat500]

I do not find it in me to root for Russell.

That kid is just too damn English.

Nice drift though.

"Hooooooooly Moly"

It will be interesting to see if he shoots himself in the foot in the race. Again.
...

Yeah, and wtf Perez?

[FaultyMario]

I have a feeling Russell is going to drive pretty dirty at the start of the race. We’ll see if he punts himself or someone else…or both.


On a greasy track anything can will happen.

[Fiat500]

Russell could have done worse, I guess.
Ferrari and Checo couldn't.

Great listening to the driver's comments when they watched the highlights this time. 😄

[Alan P]

Damn that Safety car really went against Lando today, much as it went for him at Miami. Although the McLaren pit wall really should have seen the pictures and made a logical assumption a Safety Car would be thrown once it was clear the car wasn't for moving and boxed him that lap.

[Tom Servo]

Well, that was an enjoyable race to watch.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Even looking only at the highlights was exciting!

Looks like other teams have caught up to RB while RB is fighting amongst itself…

[G'day Mate]

Anyone see Ocon’s super salty post race interview?

4310

Here we see the racing line in red, and the Ocon line in blue. In the Ocon line you make a big point about going way out of your way so you can take the high road.

[FaultyMario]

But I thought you'd banned that cheating cunt for life, FIA!

:smh:

[FaultyMario]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GQknQ7KXoAAiTPd.jpg

:lol:

[Crazed_Insanity]

It’s awesome to see multiple teams having similar qualifying pace now! Wonder same holds true for race pace… kind of a shame to see then finally converge and then new set of rules will probably change all that. They should delay the rule change a bit I think…

[FaultyMario]

people who know about those things have said that the long run pace of Mercedes and Ferrari were similar.

i guess the win will be a battle between Mac and Lando.

[JoeW]

Perez drops to 5th in standings. Oof.

Watching the start a few times on the after show…that was millimeters away from being a massive disaster caused by George. He barely got away with it.

Hamilton leaving Merc at just the wrong time if he wants more wins. But I definitely agree you can only spend so much time at a team before it’s just time for a change. He’s got nothing left to prove.

Max for sure sees the new budget rules working to great effect as the other teams have caught and, in the case of McLaren, passed RBR. And, as per the rules design, should continue for quite some time. So Max will have to just outperform the car if he wants to stay at the front in 2025. 2024 is probably in the bag even if he starts finishing P2 or 3. He’s probably trying to guess which team he needs to escape to asap.

Silly season should be interesting this year.

[FaultyMario]

McLaren has indeed passed RBR in the development race if we accept that the metric is that one corner (out of 15) where Horner said Lando was faster than Max.

Dude i know you want to paint verstappen as some kind of underdog, but that's just not reality. Redbull are the most dominant team of the bouncey car era.

Except in circuits with tight corners, because excessive dimensions.

[JoeW]

Agree to disagree as usual. As per usual, you aren’t reading my full post or aren’t understanding?

It’s obvious RBR has ruled the bouncy era. I merely said everyone has caught up…and McLaren probably has a better total package right now. And moving forward RBR will continue to fall back due to the development rules in place (so no other team can ever pull a Mercedes again). So Max will have to over perform the car next year if he wants to win another WDC.

It’s not rocket science…

[FaultyMario]

we'll see about it after Silverstone. and Austria. and zandvoort.

and you'll counter after Hungary and Singapore...

2025.

[FaultyMario]

I do not find it in me to root for Russell.

That kid has zero clutch.

If Kimi shows in his first year that he can maintain composure in an advantageous situation, that basically signals the end of the dream for Russell.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Zero clutch? What does that mean?

Anyway, I think you guys are a bit harsh on George… unless I missed some details in the highlight reels again?

Even Max did not have all that composure during his initial years, right? These ‘kids’ will probably need some time to develop themselves…

At least George didn’t crash this time and that’s an improvement! ;) if he didn’t have a botched stop, maybe he could challenge for the win!

Anyway, with the exception of Perez, pretty much all the drivers in top 4 teams are pretty good IMHO. I get the feeling Max and Lando and Hamilton are the fastest 3, but HAM is getting old. I’d love to see Max and Lando in the same car.

[JoeW]

we'll see about it after Silverstone. and Austria. and zandvoort.

and you'll counter after Hungary and Singapore...

2025.

Dude…I already said 2025. Am I in the twilight zone? I said Max has 2024 wrapped up even if he starts gettin P2/P3 finishes. And 2025 will be very tough for RBR.

I think this is the 3rd time saying it…

[FaultyMario]

and I'm saying it won't be. I'm saying that Max will have a easy drive on the tracks where laptime is dominated by high speed corners. this year and the next.

rbr are the kings of sand bagging. and the f1 budget cap is a joke. f1 is a joke. the recent reinstatement of briatore is the butt of the joke.

[FaultyMario]

the hasty publication of the 2026 formula before it was discussed with the teams is another of the poor decisions of the fia/fom/liberty in recent months.

add to that the non-sacking of Christian Horny. The change of the superlicense rules to accommodate Kimi Antonelli's arrival.

the split-season budget cap is just another of its farcical measures.

[CudaMan]

Dangit George, you saw how well the outside worked into T1 on lap 1, then wen Max came up behind you you over-defended the inside and handed the spot to him, and then you spent the rest of the stint holding up my boy, the one man who could challenge Max today.

If any of the other drivers want a shot at the championship this year maybe they should think about prioritizing not letting Max win them all, rather than squabbling amongst themselves for the leftovers. Only half joking.

[Rare White Ape]

the recent reinstatement of briatore is the butt of the joke.

Briatore was banned indefinitely by the FIA in September 2009. He appealed the ban in a French tribunal and it was overturned in January 2010. The ban was in effect for all of four months.

F1 is a joke in many ways, but it was not F1’s decision to reinstate Briatore. He’s back because Alpine wants him back and the two parties would have come to a sizeable agreement.

[FaultyMario]

I know. that's why they now require senior team personnel to obtain a FIA license, that way they're liable to the federation for any misconduct.

[FaultyMario]

The court said that the maximum amount of time he could be denied involvement to FIA events was five years, iirc.

[FaultyMario]

the FIA could very well have advised Renault not to hire him, is not like he has had any sort of public appeasement for his, frankly, shameful behavior.

Renault-nissan's investments do deserve being thrown a bone. or five. There's a long list of grievances against them in the last few years, and this is clearly a spit on the face of FOM leadership.

Briatore has been out of the game for 15 years, sure, he can get some laundered money¹ into Renault's coffers, but anything technical? forget about it.

____
¹Plenty of past experiences in F1 with that. With Rich Energy - Haas being the latest fiasco.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Money can always buy technical stuffs! :p

Anyway, I think it’s clear RB has reached the end of its development curve with Adrian’s exit. It’s clear McLaren’s the one that can consistently stay with RB. Considering Perez’s performance, I wonder if Checo really suck that badly or perhaps Max is just driving the heck out of his car already?

As for George, maybe he’s just ‘at the moment’ kinda racer? Just focusing on who’s ahead at the moment and doesn’t have enough bandwidth left to think longterm? The same mentality that he thought he can pass Bottas in a Mercedes while driving a Williams is the same kind of mentality that helped him pass Lando and Max at turn 1!

I can’t say for sure George will be a multi-champ, but one has to be an above average racer to pull that kind of move off. George is also ahead of Hamilton in points, just as Rosberg was ahead of Schumacher, an old timer multichamp… so I think George is probably at Rosberg level? Rosberg and Kimi are probably at similar level…

[Tom Servo]

Michele and I have taken to watching the race at the same time while she's in AZ and then we chat back and forth. We both fell asleep.

Not a great race.

[FaultyMario]

if you were watching live, do not feel bad... i also feel asleep after Hamilton overtook Russell for third. that was 8:30, local time.

i guess my anger against f1 comes from the lack of a palatable product, after all is said and done.

[Kchrpm]

I like the solution they have for track limits this week at Austria. They have made the strip of curbing past the line narrower than the width of the cars, and put a strip of gravel past it. So it's impossible to extend entirely past the white line without getting into the gravel, but it's easy to remove it and just get back to acres of paved runoff for all of the other events where vehicle damage avoidance is more important than track limits enforcement.

[Rare White Ape]

I thought the new gravel section was permanent. It's good though, because a vehicle can cross it perpendicular to the direction of travel really easily, while really affecting the ability of a vehicle to travel along it for a distance. Win-win!

[Kchrpm]

Maybe the new gravel piece is permanent, I just assumed that the reason for not having them previously (motorcycles? amateur track days?) would still be a factor.

I hadn't thought of the "oh shit!" vs "track extend" having such different results with the way it's setup now, great point.

[FaultyMario]

i think they're temporary. Spanish pundit/insider Albert Fabrega mentioned it's an FIA project that had been trialed for China before.

i do not remember that.

[Tom Servo]

I wonder if it was mostly just used at that final corner in China, though I thought that always had gravel there.

[Kchrpm]

Oh shit, what a race!

[FaultyMario]

There's you very mature all-time great.

[JoeW]

(Sing-song) “People let me tell you ‘bout beeest friend, he’s a warm hearted person who loves me to the”….record scratching…

[JoeW]

There's you very mature all-time great.

Yeah it was definitely no bueno. Buuut…ALL the greats made some dumbass moves in their careers. Whoever your favorite is…we could definitely pull up some silly footage. Unless he’s from a time period without much TV coverage :)

Max will definitely apologize afterwards to Lando. Might even give him a concession (that doesn’t look obvious) in the future :) Competition definitely will strain a bromance. But they are soulmates and will grow past it.

Perez…bruh…beat by a Haas. Time to go.

[FaultyMario]

what i find unacceptable is the move on the run down after the incident. To push a competitor off the track with a limping car is clearly unethical.

[JoeW]

I don’t necessarily see it the same way. At that exact point both of them had flat tires and had little control of their vehicles. But I could be swayed after I watch a few replays. Haven’t really had a chance to watch the after show.

[Freude am Fahren]

Nah, he knew exactly what he was doing, and didn't know Lando had a flat there.

He's come a long way from his early years, but I still think he can be immature under pressure. He's just never under pressure so we don't see it.

The 10 sec penalty is a joke. He should probably get a grid penalty for the next race, IMO, but I don't know if that's available in the rules.

[JoeW]

Nvm

[JoeW]

Nvm

[Crazed_Insanity]

Haas is now the best of rest? That’s amazing. Wonder what happened to Aston Martin?!?! Seemed like Mercedes swapped places with them…

Perez finishing behind Max after all that drama and behind a Haas is really something. Carlos Slim must be paying RB a lot of money?

Glad to see Russel and Piastri not interfering with Lando to catch Max this time! ;)

Anyway, I used to think Max is the new Senna, but I’m beginning to think Lando is the new new Senna! I hope we can see more of this kind of battle.

[Tom Servo]

Had planned to have another simultaneous viewing with Michele while we chat at each other but real life took over. Finally got around to watching it. I'll have to watch it again, because she can't miss this. What a race.

[JoeW]

I've watched it a few times now and I kinda agree with Peter Windsor...

Peter Windsor disagrees with 'strange' Verstappen penalty: 'Punishment Norris should have come earlier':
Peter Windsor disagrees with the stewards' decisions following the crash between Max Verstappen and Lando Norris at the Austrian Grand Prix.
He argues that Verstappen did not intentionally move left and criticizes the FIA for not addressing Norris' actions earlier.
Windsor contends that Norris should have attempted to overtake on the outside, but their collision resulted when Verstappen and Norris made contact. He refutes claims that Verstappen deliberately turned left, defending the Red Bull driver's actions during the incident.
"If you closely study Max's onboard he doesn't actually move to the left at all. What is actually happening is that the track is angled slightly to the left there he keeps absolutely straight on the steering, it looks as if he's moving to the left which is possibly what the stewards are looking at but if you look at his steering angle he doesn't change anything,"
"He keeps in a straight line. I think the real problem is that Lando's carrying the big speed differential because of DRS. All of a sudden he got the speed differential and the track's going slightly to the left,"
"Then Max got the penalty for moving the steering to the left, which was all a bit odd."
"If that decision had been published obviously or given out during the course of the race, Max Verstappen would have won the Austrian Grand Prix because he would have just let Lando pass with his five-second penalty and followed in the DRS and finish a few seconds behind him and won the race,"

[Crazed_Insanity]

From my perspective, I'd just chalked it up as a 'racing incident'.

With that flat rear, did Max deliberately tried to block Lando or just couldn't control the car very well? Hard to tell. I'd say it's deliberate, but not sure if it's really worth a penalty because that wasn't really a dangerous move, right? Both cars were damaged and slowed. Healthier cars could easily and quickly pass those 2 limping cars...

Anyway, what do I know, I'm not familiar with all the rules. I'm just excited to see Lando finally able to apply some pressure to Max. Those 2 will be able to sort themselves out later during the season I hope... finally, we have another racer capable of dueling with Max! :)

[Kchrpm]

Max was defending aggressively, Norris was attacking aggressively, the stewards were awarding penalties conservatively, and we all had quite the exciting race finish to watch. I don't know who should have gotten penalized for what, exactly, but if we can have more battles for the lead in the closing laps of the race, contact or not, track extending or not, I'll be pretty happy.

[FaultyMario]

Nah, he knew exactly what he was doing, and didn't know Lando had a flat there.

He's come a long way from his early years, but I still think he can be immature under pressure. He's just never under pressure so we don't see it.

He's had a couple of tantrums in e-racing during his non-pressure years at the top of F1.

[Tom Servo]

Peter Windsor sounds like he doesn't enjoy fun to watch racing.

I think maybe my favorite thing that's been coming out since Monaco is blaming people for going for gaps. Everyone loves repeating Senna's “If you no longer go for a gap which exists you are no longer a racing driver” and then get all mad when someone actually does that.


"If you closely study Max's onboard he doesn't actually move to the left at all. What is actually happening is that the track is angled slightly to the left there he keeps absolutely straight on the steering, it looks as if he's moving to the left which is possibly what the stewards are looking at but if you look at his steering angle he doesn't change anything,"

What in the absolute loving fuck does this mean? If I'm driving on the road and the road starts curving and I just don't bother dealing with that and push the driver next to me onto the shoulder, I'm absolved because I didn't use the steering wheel? What in the hell is that supposed to mean? What an absolutely insane thing to say.

[Crazed_Insanity]

So true. Spirit of Senna seems to be living on, but we are setting things up to clamp down on that spirit…

Anyway, after looking at that footage multiple times, I honestly can’t decide how I’d place blame for that collision. However, it looks like most of us approve of that collision and want to see the 2 race some more? :p

I wonder what’s Cuda’s take on that collision…

[Tom Servo]

Fake Peter Windsor: "He was looking as his phone and driving with his knees, there's no way he intentionally drove another car off the track."

[Crazed_Insanity]

https://youtu.be/_9eun8lIaic?si=zMW0AnShDQWUpml0

Don’t know the guy, but his explanation makes sense and he places blame entirely on Max! I think I agree with him.

[Rare White Ape]

From what I hear, Peter Winsor has plenty of experience from the passenger seat of a car, so I'll take what he says with a grain of salt.

[Tom Servo]

I used to really like him. I've also learned over the years that some people turn into utter dipshits as they get older.

[dodint]

USF1 broke that man.

[Crazed_Insanity]

JoeW only 'kinda' agrees with Peter okay?

Stop stomping on the poor guy already! :p

[JoeW]

I've driven that track virtually for thousands of laps and what he was saying is that the track jogs slightly to the left just before the turn. So the natural flow of the track requires a slight left before turning into the apex. If you watch that particular incident a hundred times you'll see that it's just not that big of a deal. Watching his steering wheel inputs leading up to the contact shows he didn't maliciously smash into Lando as a 10sec penalty would suggest. Lando still had plenty of pavement space (safe pavement...there is no gravel there) if he really wanted to avoid contact. He could have put his left tire just over the white line and been safe...but he chose to shove it in there and hold the very tiny amount of ground his front tire had cleared of Max's rear tire. He already had 4 track limits violations by this point so he was driving over the limit as it is.

I'm not saying Max was innocent of some overly aggressive defending, but Lando was also guilty of failed divebomb attempts. I think everyone is just so quick to forgive the smiling cute golden boy Lando and crucify the awful petulant bad boy no talent ass clown Max.

Buuut, even if he is guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt....not going to keep pointing out that all the multi WDC champs have driven this way at many times of their careers. Senna, Schumi, Ham all have a video library full of some overly aggressive driving.

Anywho...I have typed a few responses in this thread and edited them out already. It doesn't matter as much to me anymore.

[CudaMan]

Initially I was upset with Max for his tactics in defense, mainly his moves under braking. I thought that was still illegal in F1 (a rule that came about because of him), but on further research it turns out the FIA walked back on that a few years ago after implementing it and Vettel got in trouble for it. So I guess technically Max was fighting by the rules, even if I disagree with that rule and it's still a douchey way to race. The following, attacking driver has to potentially take evasive action by flying off track, or run into the defending driver. When Max did this and Lando didn't quite make the corner and gave the place back afterward, I believe there's a *possibility* Lando could have made the corner had Max not moved under braking. It caused Lando to have to go further right in the brake zone, possibly release the brake slightly in order to accommodate lateral load in the brake zone, and have an even worse position and angle into the corner.

American racing rules typically deal with this under the umbrella no-no of "moving in reaction" to a driver behind. Straightaway, brake zone, doesn't matter. FIA really ought to put a stop to this moving under braking thing. It's just bad racing. I could see allowing an unorthodox line under braking, which is not done in reaction. That's fair and creative defending. It still gives the driver behind that moment to react in most cases.


The whole way F1 goes about racing nowadays is weird to me sometimes. Like, a driver trying to pass on the inside might be side by side with the car on the outside as they approach the apex. The inside driver will accelerate early and start to release the steering, *guaranteeing* a trajectory that will leave zero room for the car on the outside at the exit. This very maneuver, which begins at the apex, will put their front tire a couple inches ahead of the front tire of the outside car, so the inside driver can proclaim over the radio "I was ahead at the apex!" and receive no penalty. The truth is had they taken the corner in a way that would allow the outside car to stay on track, even if barely, they would not have jumped ahead at the apex to begin with.

It can work the other way, too. If the outside driver is under attack and realizes the inside driver is going to take the corner all for themselves, the outside driver can release the brake early, maintain a speed and trajectory that will guarantee they won't make the corner, BUT in the process of this they always keep a couple inches of front tire ahead of the inside driver, they can claim "he was never ahead! He forced me off! I don't have to give the place back!" On tracks with paved runoff, it's an easy out. I haven't seen a replay with a good angle, but it's possible this is why Max didn't give the position back on the lap when Lando dove up the inside and made the corner.


I think Max has played the intimidation game to his advantage so much from his run up to his first championship, he has now enjoyed a few years of no other driver really challenging him. Partly this is due to his speed and the speed of his RedBull, partly it's just no one wants to have an accident trying to race Max. Lando in particular has been real smart about this, even if he qualified well but knew his McLaren didn't have the race pace of the RedBull, he wouldn't fight. As the McLaren has gotten faster, he's been ramping up his desire to race wheel to wheel, and I think Lando has realized recently that he might have an outside shot at the championship with seeing RedBull falter a bit, and (my pure conjecture) potentially knowing McLaren has more notable improvements in the pipeline this year. I think Lando in Austria may have decided to stop backing down now that he has a race winning car. And this, I think, led to the collision that ruined his race. I don't particularly blame him. We have seen other drivers on the outside going into that corner get squeezed onto the serrated curb before turn-in and survive. But I think Lando decided he wasn't going to be intimidated, and this, inevitably, will lead to a collision with Max.

I'm still mad at Max, though, particularly with the way he forced Lando off track after their incident. He was clearly looking in his mirror to do that. FIA needs to put a stop to that, fully, and I can't believe he got away with that.

I think we need to call Austria's Turn 3 "Controversy Corner." :)

[Tom Servo]

I don't think anybody's arguing that Lando's failed divebomb attempts were failed divebomb attempts. He clearly overdid it. The difference is that he gave the place back and didn't end anyone else's race in the process.

[JoeW]

To Cudas italicized commentary…I totally fucking agree. That shit happens all the time and it’s so annoying. Especially at T4 in Austria.

I’m still on the fence on the “after tires blown” actions. Both drivers have reduced control and are likely trying to determine who is coming at full throttle behind them to take avoiding action. I do want to look at it again though.

To Tom, very true. Lando even let Max by once when he probably shouldn’t have.

This all comes down to those multi championship drivers who will do literally anything to win and especially not let you beat them. And some of your favorite recent legends were that way :)

[Crazed_Insanity]

Yes. Senna in particular. Actually they’re all like that.

Lando needs to learn to race to not give anything back! If Max wants to crash into him, crash into him! It’s his championship to lose this year. I can’t imagine Max would want to keep throwing away races like that. Lando’s too nice! This may be his only obstacle that he needs to overcome in order to be a multi champ!;)

[JoeW]

I’ve watched the aftermath of the puncture a few times now on replay. Brundle screaming “Verstappen was trying to run him off the road” is pretty classless.

Watching it back, Max is just trying to get off the racing line. He’s not yanking on the wheel to “run him off the road” intentionally. I know all of you are in the other camp and think he’s this evil assclown. But try suspending your reality for a brief moment and just watch it a few times. Is it possible, however slightly, that he wasn’t trying to run him off the road? Lando at that time still has some air in his tires and tries to go around the side that Max immediately went to to get off the driving line.

Watching the onboard of the entire incident…going into 3 Max doesn’t even look left until Lando hits him. He’s just following the racing line and gets hit from behind. And the aftermath Max just immediately pulls right to get off line and Lando acts like he wants to pass but realizes he’s got a puncture and gets squirrely and can’t make it happen.

Orrr…Of course, as you all say, Max could have just been 100% at fault and trying to run everyone off the road on purpose.

[Kchrpm]

Is it possible that Max wasn't trying to run him off the road? Sure, the same way it's possible that Max thought he was leaving Norris plenty of room in the braking zone.

It's interesting how, after running into each other and having his tire coming off the rim, Max seems to weave across the track in multiple directions, all just in front of Norris. I'm sure he was completely out of control and could barely make it back to the pits, it was just a coincidence that he kept ending up blocking Norris from getting around him until his tire fully came apart.

Anyway, some further expert analysis.

https://youtu.be/ER4_6N86M_U?si=tHXUoODYIpZvsxgg&t=570

That link should start you at 9:30.

[CudaMan]

I watched that whole analysis video. Seems pretty spot on to me. The stewarding and rules clarity/consistency/enforcement needs to be improved. Max got away with a lot in Austria.

[Tom Servo]

Yeah, I agree with pretty much everything Palmer had to say there.

[JoeW]

Read a few things from Button who is more in the other camp. So it’s a very polarizing subject.

[Rare White Ape]

Everyone here's got an opinion heavily aligned with who their favourite driver is haven't they?

[Tom Servo]

I mean, neither of them are my favorite driver. I just think if you move over on top of a car next to you and don't give them a car width, *especially* at a not exactly complicated corner entry, ending both your races, you fucked up.

Neither are my least favorite driver. I do think that Verstappen's race craft has improved since I originally thought he was a hotlapper at best in his first season or so, but I also think he's had such a dominant car that he might be the least practiced driver out there at dealing with defending and it showed.

JoeW, lemme see if I can find Button's stuff about that, but in case you have a link handy....

EDIT: Okay, just found Button's comments. I don't think they're necessarily incompatible. He said that Verstappen may have accidentally moved left under braking, especially if he was looking to the right looking at the apex, and that that sort of thing happens. In addition, he said that Lando could have done more to avoid the collision. I still think that a) if that sort of thing happens, then Max should have known to leave more room and b) yeah, Lando could have gone up on to the curbing ruining his corner entry, but he shouldn't have had to.

This reminds me of a lot of the conversations where someone asks for drivers on the road to pay more attention and be safer, and you get a lot of "well, if you're a pedestrian or a cyclist you have to realize that even if you're right, you're going to lose." I think that's a bullshit argument to begin with and that the responsibility should lie with the person driving the big heavy death machine that also legally has to take a test to prove they know how to do that. Similarly, these are supposed to be *the best* drivers in the world. Max should have known better, and you can't expect Lando to just compromise every single pass attempt because he has no idea where Max's car is going to careen next, especially when up to that point the stewards didn't seem to be doing much to try to rein in his antics. Heck, especially with how Palmer showed that Lando went off on a failed divebomb and then gave the spot back pretty graciously (pulled off the racing line and backed out of the throttle early to let Max past on the racing line), but then Max purposely put the power down early to retain his position, knowing it would drive him off track, but then tried to blame Lando for it and showed no signs of giving the spot back. Max wanted to play bumper cars - he fucked around and found out. It's just too bad he ruined someone else's race in the process.

Yeah, Lando could have avoided it. He also shouldn't have had to. In fairness, I probably would be judging less harshly if it hadn't been preceded by the antics of Max who later talked about how frustrated he was with the car's performance. Any time Lando got on the inside, Max would move under braking, enough so that I think part of the reason Lando went off on a pass attempt was because he was aiming for a really early apex expecting Max to do it again. Lando gets on the outside and Max tries to force him onto the kerbs. There's hard racing and there's blocking, and I think Max was doing that, tried to pull some "driving off the track to save position" nonsense, and then the collision. It was the end of a bunch of bad behavior that could have been avoided. Like Palmer points out as well - Norris had a 5 second penalty. Max probably would have won anyway, even if Lando had passed.

[JoeW]

Polarizing indeed :)

[Crazed_Insanity]

Both could have avoided the contact. Don’t listen to Senna. Don’t go for that gap, don’t t try to win, then everyone should be able to safely finish the race… well, unless if your car breaks down. :p

I think I can understand why neither side think they did anything wrong. Let’s assume they both share fault at exactly 50/50… should similar incident happens next time, how will they react to this game of chicken?

The person who yields 1st next will likely win less championships. I think it’s clear Max won’t yield. I hope Lando won’t either.

Then Russell becomes the new champion! :p

[Crazed_Insanity]

Wow! What a qualifying session! :up:

[XHawkeye]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GRz24W1XIAEFAWi.jpg

[JoeW]

I would love to experience that turn into copse at full bore in a F1 car. God damn those things just snap into the corner like a slot car.

[Kchrpm]

I'm cautiously optimistic

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DrE9umGiPZQ

[Crazed_Insanity]

I’d like to see Tom Cruise as Checo and with the movie ending with Checo winning the Monaco race…

What’s the point of seeing Brad Pit driving for a fictitious team? :p

[FaultyMario]

I'll have to watch it again, because she can't miss this. What a race.

The queue just got longer.

[JoeW]

Perez…bruh…time to hang it up.

Russell…fast in perfect conditions but when it gets funky he just can’t hang.

McLaren had the fastest car today but they made some bad decisions today.

Hamilton definitely won his last Silverstone…Ferrari is just nowhere right now.

Hulk is a boss. Good for you sir.

Mercedes has finally caught up. Max would be wise to jump on the rocket while it’s going up instead of the falling RBR.

Decent race overall. Had some good drama.

[FaultyMario]

TBF, Pérez was only racing Leclerc. And Leclerc's only battle was against his strategy team, who in turn were closely matched in inventiveness by McLaren's own strategists.

Ferrari's ferrariness prevailed.

[JoeW]

Ferrari always Ferraris. Hamilton can’t fix them.

Perez beached his car yesterday and secured another Q1 exit.

[Crazed_Insanity]

What was Russel’s reason for retirement? Article I read said water system issues?!?! That means radiator?

Anyway, it was good to see HAM win this one, ahead of Max!

Strategy was obviously very important for this race. I wonder if those finished on top personally made the right calls or they have their team strategists to thank?

Anyway, if we had a dry race, looks like McLaren probably should win? Or is Mercedes really back?

[FaultyMario]

That means radiator?

Don't these things have like seven different radiators? I'm sure the leak they observed was critical.

[Alan P]

McLaren lost this race, potentially for both drivers. Piastri finished about 5 seconds back from Hamilton but easily lost that being kept out for another lap. McLaren need to be stronger in their decisions. Norris onto the mediums and double stacked their drivers just as Mercedes did.

[JoeW]

Perez has a very real shot of slipping to 8th in WDC after next race. I suspect he’ll be let go by the summer break.

[Tom Servo]

It is wild that somehow Lando was able to not run into Max as he went around on the outside at the end of the race. I was led to believe that that was an impossibility?

[Rare White Ape]

It is wild that somehow Lando was able to not run into Max as he went around on the outside at the end of the race. I was led to believe that that was an impossibility?

Poor track design led to them causing no issues late in the race.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Perez has a very real shot of slipping to 8th in WDC after next race. I suspect he’ll be let go by the summer break.

I thought he has a 2 yr extension?

Even if Horner ruthlessly tore that contract up, who else could take the place of a stable #2 though?

They should've gotten Sainz instead of extending Checo.

Both Albon and Ricciardo have had the experiences with Max... Not sure if they'll do much better? Maybe give Yuki a chance to shine?

Anyway, I think Checo is probably just in another one of his psychological slump? Obviously he could do better, but something is screwed up mentally... if he can find his usual self, he should be a good #2 at RB.

[JoeW]

Oh I forgot about that 2yr extension. Nvm…he’s solid for two more years :)

Or the summer break…

[Crazed_Insanity]

Like I said, if you were Horner, who would you replace him with tho?

RB's dominance is also slowly and clearly fading away. Without Max, RB would be a back marker team or a mid-field team at best, if they have 2 checos! :lol:

I'm surprised that the team still hasn't imploded yet with all the internal politics.

Makes me wonder that perhaps Checo is doing relatively fine as his usual self, it's Max who's carrying this now inferior RB because other teams have pass them by? It appears that Max winning the race by a huge margin is over, right? So if Max couldn't win a race, naturally Checo will end up way back! :p If that's the case, it doesn't really matter who Horner replace Checo with... you'll end up with the same results. So you might as well keep Checo and keep the fat checks signed by Carlos Slim?

I would really like to see Max and Lando in the same car, but for sure Lando won't be leaving McLaren now.

[CudaMan]

Sainz is on the market.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I'd get Sainz too if I were Horner, but doesn't look like RB is keen to get him back. Horner probably signed a contract with Perez to help ease his concerns about his future knowing that Sainz is free? But the sense of security didn't seem to help Checo's performance.

I do feel bad for Sainz. The guy has always managed to perform pretty good when matched against with the team's #1. However, whenever a team wish to get a new driver, they always manage to drop Sainz. How much does a guy need to prove himself? The dude has demonstrated that he can run with Lando and Leclerc in the same car... yet, teams still don't often appreciate him. When they sign a bigger driver, Sainz is out the door. Does he have an annoying personality or something? What gives? Probably just series of bad luck?

I really thought he'd be a Ferrari #2 for a long time... but I guessed wrong.

Other than Sainz, I think Hulk has demonstrated that he's fast and consistent?

[FaultyMario]

Sainz is on the market.

The market is clogged up by Sainz. If other, noncontract driver's are too be believed.