Religion

[Crazed_Insanity]

Billi, here's a question for you. If we don't believe in God/Jesus, don't repent for our sins...will we burn in hell for all eternity?

Edit:

Wanted to add another point, separately.

Is the difference between mythology (like Greek mythology) and religion merely the amount of followers and P.R.?

Surely you know there are probably infinite # of bible interpretations. Personally, I interpret that hell's fire may last forever, but I don't believe we can last forever in fire-y hell. Eternal life comes from God. Without God, I just don't think there can be eternal life in hell. Eventually you must perish. So I don't think you'll burn in hell for all eternity! That's part of your question #1. :p

As for the other part, if you go on the wrong path and refuse to make a u-turn, guess what, you just won't ever get to wherever you want to go! Now, if you honestly don't think you've sinned or you're lost, then of course there'd be nothing to repent and no need to flip a u-turn.

Finally, every religion probably advertises they have the one and true God(s), so who's right who's wrong? Only God knows.

I believe God is a loving, graceful and merciful God. If He's real, eventually we're all going to see Him. Will you finally believe or will you still rather tell him to F-off? The God I know is not the kind of God who'd force you to love Him. If you honestly don't want to, you don't have to. if you'd rather perish than to live forever with a God who you hate, God can respect that and won't force you to join Him in heaven.

Now, if I get this all wrong... and God is a meanie and very offended by me believing in Jesus and decide to destroy and torture me... so be it. For sure I wouldn't want to spend eternity with such an abusive God anyway.

Or the other way of me getting it all wrong... that there's no God and atheists got it right after all! If that is the real truth, then after I die, I'd never know the real truth I guess. :p

Lastly, if God is real, but can't get anyone to believe in Him or have any meaningful influence in this physical world... then this God deserves to be classified as mythology.

[MR2 Fan]

Surely you know there are probably infinite # of bible interpretations. Personally, I interpret that hell's fire may last forever, but I don't believe we can last forever in fire-y hell. Eternal life comes from God. Without God, I just don't think there can be eternal life in hell. Eventually you must perish. So I don't think you'll burn in hell for all eternity! That's part of your question #1. :p

As for the other part, if you go on the wrong path and refuse to make a u-turn, guess what, you just won't ever get to wherever you want to go! Now, if you honestly don't think you've sinned or you're lost, then of course there'd be nothing to repent and no need to flip a u-turn.

Ok,

The reason why I asked is that it's one of the main problems I have with Christianity.....which is basically forcing people to "believe" in God, because if not, they will burn in hell. It reminds me of Sharia law in a way, where they try to kill you if you convert from Islam to Christianity.

Obviously there's a difference, because Christianity is an existential threat that's supposed to be related to Satan, and not directly from God, but it's still "believe in God....OR ELSE!!" kind of thing.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Anyway, God respects our free will. You don't have to love him if you really don't want to. You don't have to live with him in heaven if you don't want to.

But if you do want to, all it takes is faith and repentance of our sinful ways. What's sinful? Basically anything against love. I personally believe if you're doing something out of love, it can't be sinful. Because God is love.

[overpowered]

Christian vandals

https://www.gofundme.com/ag7ay8kk

[thesameguy]

How do you know the vandals are Christians?

[overpowered]

How do you know the vandals are Christians?

https://scontent-lax3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xap1/v/t1.0-9/12189722_1647552335522233_1399161435662791213_n.jp g?oh=d10d9a066cf9d4bc102cf8f06e447041&oe=56C2504F

[thesameguy]

Oh, guess it's lucky only Christians can spell Christ and God.

[G'day Mate]

Toledo Mayoral Candidate Who Speaks in Tongues Gets Grilled by Local News Anchors (http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2015/10/29/toledo-mayoral-candidate-who-speaks-in-tongues-gets-grilled-by-local-news-anchors/)

[LHutton]

'Adopt a highway'?

[overpowered]

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Adopt+a+highway

[overpowered]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CS6ZJ5gXAAARL17.jpg

[tigeraid]

:lol:

[Crazed_Insanity]

God created all creatures, surely He knows what's good and not good for us. Even with today's technologies, shellfish and pork are still MORE likely to get us sick.

As for 'slavery', it was just a form of 'employment' back then. God never said once we 'own' somebody, we can abuse and kill them however we want. Plus, masters are suppose to take good care of their 'properties'. It's people nowadays who have issues with the word 'slavery', God has no problems with it if you take good care of your slaves. God only has problems with people abusing one another for no good reason. Jews were slaves in Egypt, God has no problems with it. Only when they were seriously mistreated, then God did something.

We can act all superior to God now for we have banned slavery, but we are still short changing cheap laborers around the world. We also are continuing trafficking sex workers around the world. Yes, we've banned the politically incorrect word 'slavery', but we are still practicing it secretly.

[Freude am Fahren]

All I hear is "I was wrong, he hits me because he loves me"

[LHutton]

God created shellfish to rule enslaved man.

Crab people.....

[overpowered]

The Top 20 Bible Passages to Use Against Fundamentalists

http://www.ranker.com/list/top-20-bible-passages-to-use-against-fundamentalists/ivana-wynn

[Sad, little man]

Just figured I would pop into the religion thread real quick to see what was going on. Looks like Billi is defending slavery... Holy shit... And back out of this thread I go...

[Crazed_Insanity]

Not really defending slavery. Just warning folks not to feel so happy about being better than God(able to ban slavery), reality is although that word is banned, this abusive practice is still alive and well.

God doesn't have a problem with owning people, but He does have a problem with people not loving one another....

[MR2 Fan]

God doesn't have a problem with owning people, but He does have a problem with people not loving one another....

:popcorn:

[21Kid]

:erm:

[G'day Mate]

Christian vandals

https://www.gofundme.com/ag7ay8kk

Looks like the Greater Church of Lucifer in Texas has been vandalised again. The first time they cut an overhanging tree limb so that it fell onto their roof, this time they broke the front window by throwing a "large object" through it.

[G'day Mate]

Oh and, surprisingly, Opal Covey lost her mayoral election ... because of stolen votes of course. God told her.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4YZGnMzsD3Q

I suppose her concession must be that these other crafty politicians manage to keep outmaneuvering God.

[thesameguy]

It's a test of her faith, obvs.

[G'day Mate]

The good people of Toledo better brace themselves now I suppose ...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEefZiQNs1U

[overpowered]

https://scontent-lax3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfl1/v/t1.0-9/12187652_1172952069382436_8071328273543583322_n.jp g?oh=dc6eb00602b42409ad1891925821b32c&oe=56BE7A65

[21Kid]

And they can't duplicate any of it in current times? :shock:

[Crazed_Insanity]

What are you talking about, it's like the most duplicated book ever!

BTW, discovery of Dead Sea Scrolls eased the concerned David Cross had.

[overpowered]

http://www.upmoments.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/bridegay.png

[thesameguy]

I am considering getting married just so I can have these guys do my photography.

[overpowered]

https://scontent-lax3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xap1/v/t1.0-9/12243318_1616000161997776_915518422569177709_n.jpg ?oh=647588cb8e5b06d98c2c587866dd08b9&oe=56F6EBA1

https://scontent-lax3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpt1/v/t1.0-9/11221949_10154316768034746_2631625251212698268_n.j pg?oh=fb8a396a29d995d6fec93909329cdaf6&oe=56BE2CC9

[LHutton]

Plenty of Atheists have committed suicide though.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Yeah, what about that recent gunman who executed Christians? Although an atheist, I guess he's still killing other and self in the name of religion?

As for the Paris attack, even most Muslims condemned it.

Extremism is not something exclusively caused by religion.

I'm willing to bet ISIL is mostly driven by money or hateful revenge rather than by Allah.

[Freude am Fahren]

Religion is more of a tool for hate than a cause.

[thesameguy]

I would expect there are a lot more religious Average Joes than religious haters. The news doesn't tend to cover people minding their own business. Haters gonna hate, and they'll couch their negativity under whatever umbrella is most handy.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Assuming God(s) do not exist, 'religions' are essentially ideologies of those who remained faithful to something that doesn't exist.

Even if we were able to prove conclusively that God(s) don't exist and all religious are bogus, we can only get rid of religions. However, 'ideologies' dreamed up by human minds can continue to exist.

For those poisoned by hatred, even science can be twisted for evil. It is not the religious leaders who invented rockets with nuclear warheads. Blaming religions for the ills of the world is convenient, but won't solve problems. But of course if they're not in the hands of the few warped minds, then we can utilize them to have cheap/clean energy and get to the moon.

Also, notice even in USA, we also regularly have suicide gunmen popping up lately. Were they all religious? Were they all caused by our stupid gun laws? If we ban those things, we can solve the problem? Kinda doubt it.

I think the root of our problem is that we're so good at fucking with one another and don't quite know how to love one another. Until we learn how to love one another, we'll always end up with some suicide fuckers.

[G'day Mate]

Long, but interesting ...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xeZuRTdS9RI

[thesameguy]

Even if we were able to prove conclusively that God(s) don't exist and all religious are bogus, we can only get rid of religions. However, 'ideologies' dreamed up by human minds can continue to exist.

I think this is a key idea that I wish atheist zealots (HA!) would wrap their noggins around. People are always going to believe stuff. Whether Flying Spaghetti Monster told them to believe it or they came to a conclusion after years of special diets and soul searching is ultimately immaterial. People raise their kids differently, they eat differently, and they act differently. Removing a figurehead from the thought process is meaningless. You didn't see Hitler acting out in the name of Christ and a lot of people still got hurt. Eliminating Islam or Christianity or whathaveyou from the planet isn't going to change or solve anything. The important detail is not who told who to believe what but rather understanding that my belief isn't your belief and that's okay so long as nobody gets hurt. Everyone getting there is what's important.

[LHutton]

Or what they believe after 25 years of national news, which is probably worse than the very worst dogshit religion history has to offer.

[MR2 Fan]

Assuming God(s) do not exist, 'religions' are essentially ideologies of those who remained faithful to something that doesn't exist.

Even if we were able to prove conclusively that God(s) don't exist and all religious are bogus, we can only get rid of religions. However, 'ideologies' dreamed up by human minds can continue to exist.

For those poisoned by hatred, even science can be twisted for evil. It is not the religious leaders who invented rockets with nuclear warheads. Blaming religions for the ills of the world is convenient, but won't solve problems. But of course if they're not in the hands of the few warped minds, then we can utilize them to have cheap/clean energy and get to the moon.

Also, notice even in USA, we also regularly have suicide gunmen popping up lately. Were they all religious? Were they all caused by our stupid gun laws? If we ban those things, we can solve the problem? Kinda doubt it.

I think the root of our problem is that we're so good at fucking with one another and don't quite know how to love one another. Until we learn how to love one another, we'll always end up with some suicide fuckers.

I'm not going to disagree with your basic premise on this....I agree with most of it....HOWEVER....


Here's the problem. Radical people show up everywhere, in every country, in every environment, rich, poor, religious, secular, war-torn or completely safe.

The difference is that radicalism by individuals, due to mental illness or a difficult upbringing, etc. is completely different than a long, systematic set of radicalization based on what people believe to be their "perfect" version of ideology and anyone who doesn't believe in that ideology is not worth living and must be destroyed.

What we need is to understand that having belief systems not based on logic and reason and based on stories written thousands of years ago, and then fighting to the death over those stories is severely hindering the progress of the human race.

People can't fight their religious doctrine with a different religious doctrine because no one wins when neither side can be "proven" and that is what has been going on for so long.

Until everyone lives by the idea that all human life is worth saving no matter what personal beliefs are, this shit will keep happening.

[21Kid]

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/3/33/Daleks_appearence.jpg/250px-Daleks_appearence.jpg


What we need is to understand that having belief systems not based on logic and reason and based on stories written thousands of years ago, and then fighting to the death over those stories is severely hindering the progress of the human race.

People can't fight their religious doctrine with a different religious doctrine because no one wins when neither side can be "proven" and that is what has been going on for so long.

Until everyone lives by the idea that all human life is worth saving no matter what personal beliefs are, this shit will keep happening.
:toast::):up:

[Crazed_Insanity]

Mr2, remember the Cold War? Which religion caused us to be so MAD? That USA and USSR turned the entire planet into a suicide bomber?

Any type of extreme ideologies can cause folks to lose their sense of logic and reasoning skills. Religion could be one of the extreme ideologies, but humans don't need religions to get mad!

[LHutton]

Mr2, remember the Cold War? Which religion caused us to be so MAD? That USA and USSR turned the entire planet into a suicide bomber?

Any type of extreme ideologies can cause folks to lose their sense of logic and reasoning skills. Religion could be one of the extreme ideologies, but humans don't need religions to get mad!
In unmoderated form both Capitalism and Socialism are extremist ideologies. Even Liberalism is too. It's when a person gets so hung up on a framework of beliefs that any evidence not supporting them is simply ignored.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Yeah, if you're happy or okay with watching people who hold opposing beliefs get hurt or die, then it's fair to say that you're now an 'extremist'. Time to moderate your belief a bit and move your ass toward the center.

However, IMHO, in order for things to really work out for all of us, we all need to at least embrace Christ's teaching. Assuming there's no God, we can skip loving God, but we really need to love our neighbors though..., even if they're your enemies!

As long as we harbor hatred for other human beings who don't think like us... whether if they're racists or terrorists or religious or non-religious or homosexuals or homophobic... evil things probably will continue to happen. We can hate evil, but must learn to try to forgive evildoers for a lot of them really don't know what they're doing. Eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, bomb for a bomb obviously isn't working.

[LHutton]

Yeah, if you're happy or okay with watching people who hold opposing beliefs get hurt or die, then it's fair to say that you're now an 'extremist'. Time to moderate your belief a bit and move your ass toward the center.

Every extremist sees themselves as the centre.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Just saying that if you're happy or okay seeing people who hold opposing views end up dead or just somehow disappearing, then your ideology probably needs realignment. I just think that'd be a good check for all to see if you're really near the center... or on either extremes.

[LHutton]

Just saying that if you're happy or okay seeing people who hold opposing views end up dead or just somehow disappearing, then your ideology probably needs realignment. I just think that'd be a good check for all to see if you're really near the center... or on either extremes.
If you're happy about it yes, unless they're a terrorist. If you'd rather terrorists killed people outside your country rather than in it, then I think that's understandable, although you'd prefer they just stopped altogether but realise that isn't likely.

[Crazed_Insanity]

No, there's no 'unless' here. There also shouldn't be any killings. If you're happy or okay with killing off of torturing of even "terrorists", your view is most likely warped by some extreme ideology.

If loving one another is too much to ask, the approach ought to at least be attempting to understand one another rather than just wanting to wipe each other out.

Are these people really just crazy zombies infected and poisoned by religion to want to fly into buildings and kill innocent folks at Paris?

[MR2 Fan]

Mr2, remember the Cold War? Which religion caused us to be so MAD? That USA and USSR turned the entire planet into a suicide bomber?

Any type of extreme ideologies can cause folks to lose their sense of logic and reasoning skills. Religion could be one of the extreme ideologies, but humans don't need religions to get mad!

The Soviet ideology lasted around 80 years. Communism still exists, obviously, but is much different in its surviving mainstays in China and now Cuba. North Korea is its own thing.

They didn't have religion in the traditional sense, but had the "cult of personality" based on a single dictator or leader, Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Castro, the Kims.

For some reason I'm reminded of the movie 300, where Leonidas made the Xerxes, their so-called God....bleed, to prove he wasn't a God or immortal. That's not easy to do with a God that can't be proven to exist or not exist.

[thesameguy]

You can't make God bleed, but you can make baby Jesus cry.

[MR2 Fan]

You can't make God bleed, but you can make baby Jesus cry.

:lol:

[Crazed_Insanity]

Cold War was not all about USSR ideology, USA was ready to suicide bomb the world as well. Baby Jesus definitely was crying.

Again it's always easier to blame the other side, but reality is that most of the time we are equally at blame if not more.

If I'm not clear, let me be blunt. Islam didn't create terrorists. We the West did. If we proceed as usual, believing that tighter security and bigger bombs can solve our problems... Well, that'll only feed the problem and make it bigger.

[21Kid]

http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/6b/6b1721fad5934cdec27c776c0ee97bbc871f9f9352a786ae57 0ac82b55119338.jpg

[LHutton]

No, there's no 'unless' here. There also shouldn't be any killings. If you're happy or okay with killing off of torturing of even "terrorists", your view is most likely warped by some extreme ideology.

If loving one another is too much to ask, the approach ought to at least be attempting to understand one another rather than just wanting to wipe each other out.
If terrorists are in the process of killing thousands of innocent people, then I'm going to be happy when they're dead because several thousand innocent people will get to live because they're dead.



Are these people really just crazy zombies infected and poisoned by religion to want to fly into buildings and kill innocent folks at Paris?
Pretty much yes. From their perspective everyone who doesn't believe in Islam is an infidel and should be either killed or enslaved. It's really not at all similar to cases like Northern Ireland where a political struggle was wrongly termed a sectarian conflict and it's a mistake to think of it that way.

[LHutton]

Cold War was not all about USSR ideology, USA was ready to suicide bomb the world as well.
Yes but nobody in the US proposed a doomsday vessel that consisted of a H-bomb the size of freight ship.

[Crazed_Insanity]

1st, there's a difference between 'in the process of' and 'actually committed' acts of terrorism.

In war, yeah, 2 extreme parties are at each other's throats trying to kill the other person first.

However, we shouldn't resort to wars. Even when the other side actually committed evil acts, we ought to try to forgive rather then to escalate another evil act on top of an evil act. This is what extremists do.

Lastly, who are 'terrorists'? Forget about people from the Middle East for a minute. We have plenty of mental gunmen popping up within the US often times killing others and self for variety of reasons. Quite often nobody knew that these folks are 'in the process' of their mass killing spree. Yeah, we could also declare war on the stupid american gun laws, and end up viewing gun lovers as 'terrorists'... and end up viewing gun haters as 'freedom haters'..., but the root of the problem is still ignored.

We just don't love one another enough. I'd bet most of those lone gunmen or terrorists just don't or no longer have anyone around who loves them.

[overpowered]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1pYoZh5P4w

[overpowered]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ZyIG_jZzBs

[overpowered]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tif3l-bnMyE

[overpowered]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZijLQGH1v0

[G'day Mate]

I think Wendy Wright is missing from that list

[Freude am Fahren]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zEnWw_lH4tQ

[LHutton]

The real Qu'ran is far scarier.

https://counterjihadnews.files.wordpress.com/2015/02/main-qimg-d0a7e7c524eb284f87b13ecd2ab69821.jpg

And, unlike the passages from the Old Testament in the above video, which is technically The Torah (Jewish, and largely countered/contradicted by the New Testament, which pre-dates the Qu'ran), the Qu'ran was written after 632 AD, whereas the Old testament is >2500 years old. The other difference is that the Qu'ran is still practised in strict adherence in many countries even today, while Christianity has been moderated, and is no longer the basis of law in the vast majority (if not all) of modern, predominantly Christian countries. It seems that Christian, Hindu and Buddhist countries have managed to moderate themselves, but Muslim countries are still engulfed in turmoil, tit-for-tat mass murder and genocide.

[21Kid]

Young Pennsylvania Boy Who Was Blessed By Pope Francis Dies (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/landon-vargas-pope-francis_56668c4fe4b08e945ff0c231?ncid=txtlnkusaolp 00000592)
:sadbanana:

[Kchrpm]

Unless he was blessed instead of getting treatment, I don't see a problem with how things were handled. If you had asked the Pope or the family, my guess is they would say the blessing wasn't meant to guarantee he would be healed, but that he would be saved from eternal damnation. If it comforts the child and the parents to think about this incurable disease will just take him to heaven, and will make it easier for them to sleep, then I'm ok with it. There are parts of some religions I have a problem with, but not that one.

[thesameguy]

But who cares what people believe? There is nothing wrong with having hope or finding solace in a bigger system that works for good in ways that aren't immediately apparent. For some that's a dude in a white robe, for others that's dudes in white lab coats. At the end of the day you are the one that needs to be happy with your choices. Why does it matter to me which one you choose?

[21Kid]

Yeah, I see your point. Sorry.

I'm in a bad mood and it must have rubbed me the wrong way.

[thesameguy]

Meh. Whatevs. ;)

[Kchrpm]

Being able to admit that you see someone else's point, and to apologize, shows signs of your great maturity :up:

[overpowered]

https://www.facebook.com/photo/download/?fbid=10152850667551605

[LHutton]

http://www.inquisitr.com/2622046/paris-mosques-raid-police-raid-shut-down-three-mosques-in-paris-after-chilling-discoveries-inside/#QRtG6SEsqVcU0gIK.99


French authorities have announced the closure of three mosques in Paris after chilling discoveries were made inside each location. In a statement released by the Seine-and-Marne Department, French police revealed they have seized 330 war-grade weapons and 7.62mm ammunition for a Kalashnikov rifles, and Islamic State propaganda videos from multiple mosques that have been raided, according to the New York Times.

The statement also revealed Islamic State propaganda videos and recordings of religious chants “glorifying the martyrs of jihad-linked to the terrorist organization Jabhat al-Nusra” were also found. The questionable findings inside the Paris mosques have led to the arrests of more than 230 Muslims. A total of 22 suspects are still reportedly under surveillance and prohibited from traveling, while another nine are under house arrest, according to Mad World News.

[LHutton]

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2015/12/10/iranian-woman-to-be-stoned-to-death-as-rest-world-marks-un-human-rights-day/


Iranian woman to be stoned to death as world marks UN 'Human Rights Day'

http://a57.foxnews.com/global.fncstatic.com/static/managed/img/U.S./876/493/stoningpic.jpg?ve=1&tl=1

[Dicknose]

The photo is part of a protest. And the story says the women was charged with murder. Other countries also have the death penalty for murder.

[LHutton]

There's a difference between capital punishment by injection and being stoned to death.


“Women are stoned for being raped and Iranian law even allows for juvenile executions. Iran is averaging three hangings per day at the moment and remains a pariah state with no regard for human life," she added.

[Freude am Fahren]

I think the point is that it is such an easy target when people get legally stoned to death for things like blasphemy, a wife letting her man fuck her in the ass, or "sorcery", but you picked an example that will make people go, "meh"

[overpowered]

5 Near-Identical Jesus Christ Myths That Predate Jesus

http://www.liberalamerica.org/2015/03/17/5-near-identical-jesus-christ-myths-that-predate-jesus/

[Dicknose]

There's a difference between capital punishment by injection and being stoned to death.

Not a hell of a lot when you are dead.

As FaF said, there are lots of reasons to not like their laws and system, but the method of execution is well down that list.

[LHutton]

Not a hell of a lot when you are dead.

As FaF said, there are lots of reasons to not like their laws and system, but the method of execution is well down that list.
So instead of capital punishment by lethal injection, you'd be happy for US states to slowly torture people to death instead? They'll end up dead either way right. And waterboarding is fine by the same logic, because they're prisoners either way, so it doesn't matter.

And I think I did cover that it wasn't just done for murder:

http://gtxforums.net/showthread.php?663-Religion&p=58626&viewfull=1#post58626

And you also have to look at what 'complicit in a murder' actually entails for a women in Muslim terminology. E.g. had an affair, or was raped by the person who murdered her husband would probably suffice.

[Dicknose]

I don't think there should be capital punishment at all.
Or torture.

There are shades of grey between this and what the US does.

[LHutton]

Not unless they stone women to death too.

[Dicknose]

Is it the stoning or that it's women?
I don't agree with killing people as a punishment, I don't see that the sex or method makes much difference.
Would you be happy if I said it was a darker shade of grey, more wrong?

I do find irony in Christians who believe in the death penalty, or maybe hypocrisy would be a better term.

[LHutton]

The method makes a hell of a difference.

I'm personally undecided on the death penalty. A life sentence makes a better penalty but it's fucking expensive and I don't really want to pay for it, not sure whether the deterrence value is any better either. So there are some good financial arguments for putting down the obviously guilty beyond all doubt. Keeping them alive is like a really expensive form of hoarding. That doesn't mean you make the death as slow and painful as possible, and the only people who'd volunteer for that are usually criminally-minded themselves.

[Crazed_Insanity]

If Jesus believes in stoning sinners to death, he would've allowed those folks to stone that adulterous woman to death.

If Jesus doesn't believe in stoning people to death at all, then he probably wouldn't ask those folks without sin to throw it first!

We definitely should be merciful to criminals who made mistakes. I'm personally against it death penalty, but I do find it appalling that California spent more money on prisoners than kids at school though...

I think even life sentences should be abolished. Why should the state waste money like that?

If some criminal is not mental and refuse to repent, I also don't see why the state need to treat him better than a homeless dude off the street....

[LHutton]

If Jesus believes in stoning sinners to death, he would've allowed those folks to stone that adulterous woman to death.

If Jesus doesn't believe in stoning people to death at all, then he probably wouldn't ask those folks without sin to throw it first!
Jeez Billi. I think when Jesus said, "let he who is without sin throw the first stone." He was basically saying that all of them were with sin and therefore nobody should throw it.

[Crazed_Insanity]

If absolutely NOBODY should do it, then why is it spelled out in the Old Testament? Why God commanded folks to do things that we absolutely shouldn't be doing? So I don't think it's an absolute no no. Otherwise David throwing a stone which killed Goliath should also be a no no!

Anyway, of course we're not living in the age of OT, but in an age of NT(or age of grace). I do agree with DN, as Christians, it does seem extremely hypocritical to be a proponent of death penalty. I guess only those who truly experienced God's grace and mercy can extend such things to other sinners.

[Freude am Fahren]

Maybe because it's a fairy tail written by a bunch of cave dwellers thousands of years ago?

[LHutton]

If absolutely NOBODY should do it, then why is it spelled out in the Old Testament? Why God commanded folks to do things that we absolutely shouldn't be doing? So I don't think it's an absolute no no. Otherwise David throwing a stone which killed Goliath should also be a no no!
It is an absolute no, because nobody is without fault.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Jesus is a man without fault. He could stone that woman but he just chose not to.

[overpowered]

https://www.facebook.com/photo/download/?fbid=1185404781470498

[G'day Mate]

Jesus obviously didn't read Deuteronomy.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Yes, eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth. Also, wage of sin is death whether by stoning or otherwise. This is justice according to the bible.

However, Jesus didn't come to abolish the old law but to fulfill it. Prior to crucifixion, he probably busted an eye or even few teeth during the beating. He eventually even died for us... So we don't have to get what we deserved... Paying for what we owe in order to restore cosmic justice.

[overpowered]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFkeKKszXTw

[overpowered]

Bigots pretending to be victims.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6PPk2NOQXs

[FaultyMario]

Jesus obviously didn't read Deuteronomy.

That's a point i tried to make like seven forums ago. Christianity is not really a reformation of Judaism, it has enough influences from Eastern an Roman mythologies that it is a different route of Abrahamism.

[G'day Mate]

Yes, eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth.

I was thinking about where it refers to killing your apostate friends

[Crazed_Insanity]

It was a matter of national security back then not just a religion. Israel disappeared off the maps twice due to their lack of faith. God is their commander in chief. Soldiers just can't expect to live happily ever after if you openly diss your top commander.

Maybe our civilization will also eventually evolve to think treason charges to be idiotic as well, but people just think differently over time.

As for biblical truth, that remains of course. Only faith in God can ensure that we get eternal life.

[FaultyMario]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TG55ErfdaeY

[JoshInKC]

Not a bad video, I think he overstates the oppression of the Jews by the Empire, but not by an unreasonable amount.

[LHutton]

Muslims burn a Christmas tree in Belgium.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=9a5_1451651186

[overpowered]

Church Members Protested Strip Club, So Topless Dancers Came to Church to Return the Favor

http://aattp.org/topless-dancers-protest-church-for-picketing-strip-club/

[21Kid]

:clap:

[LHutton]

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/635743/Transgender-women-STONED-by-migrant-men-in-Germany-after-they-tried-to-grope-pair


Transgender women STONED by migrant men in Germany

[Crazed_Insanity]

Not only are these story not religion related, but I also find them difficult to believe. These migrants would actually offer to solicit sex and eventually sexually assault German women?

[LHutton]

Stoning is very religiously related. It's Sharia Law. In fact it's legacy Middle Eastern culture that was incorporated into Sharia Law by BS merchants, who claimed it to be God's will.

http://www.theworld-aroundus.com/news/cologne-imam-girls-were-raped-because-they-were-half-naked-and-wore-perfume/


Cologne Imam: Girls Were Raped Because They Were Half Naked And Wore Perfume

Warning women against “adding fuel to the fire”, the Imam of a Salafist Cologne mosque has said the victims of the New Year’s Eve attacks in that city were themselves responsible for their sex assault, by dressing inappropriately and wearing perfume.

[overpowered]

https://www.facebook.com/photo/download/?fbid=950678874979288

[LHutton]

???

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presbyterianism


Presbyterian theology typically emphasizes the sovereignty of God, the authority of the Scriptures, and the necessity of grace through faith in Christ.

[Crazed_Insanity]

https://www.facebook.com/photo/download/?fbid=950678874979288

After 40 years, are these grown children all very loving, compassionate, respectful and kind? If something's screwed up or if they need help along the way, will Mr. Rogers be able to help save them?

Not to put down Mr Rogers efforts, but how can you compare 40 years to 2000 years. I think even Mr Rogers himself wouldn't dare compare himself to Jesus.

[LHutton]

This thread just got confusing.

[speedpimp]

If you don't know who that guy is, my soul weeps for you, he's MISTER FUCKING ROGERS. Never knew he was a preacher.

[MR2 Fan]

I thought he was a world war II sniper, but apparently that was a myth

[overpowered]

After 40 years, are these grown children all very loving, compassionate, respectful and kind? If something's screwed up or if they need help along the way, will Mr. Rogers be able to help save them?

Not to put down Mr Rogers efforts, but how can you compare 40 years to 2000 years. I think even Mr Rogers himself wouldn't dare compare himself to Jesus.As usual, you completely miss the point.

[LHutton]

So did he stop being a Presbyterian? That's the bit that lost me.

[Dicknose]

The past tense "was" is because he is dead, not because he stopped being religious to take up his tv role.
Not being American I've never seen him and was only vaguely aware of him.

[speedpimp]

So did he stop being a Presbyterian? That's the bit that lost me.

Even though he was an ordained minister, his main job seems to have always been children's television. His wiki says he had no interest at all in preaching.


In other weird children's television trivia, Captain Kangaroo was a Sunni Imam and Mr. Hooper on Sesame Street was a rabbi.

[overpowered]

If Hell Is Real, Why Did God Wait So Darn Long To Warn Us About It?

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/formerlyfundie/if-hell-is-real-why-did-god-wait-so-darn-long-to-warn-us-about-it/

[LHutton]

Even though he was an ordained minister, his main job seems to have always been children's television. His wiki says he had no interest at all in preaching.


In other weird children's television trivia, Captain Kangaroo was a Sunni Imam and Mr. Hooper on Sesame Street was a rabbi.
And Kermit was a scientologist apparently.









Nah, I made that up.

[LHutton]

If Hell Is Real, Why Did God Wait So Darn Long To Warn Us About It?

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/formerlyfundie/if-hell-is-real-why-did-god-wait-so-darn-long-to-warn-us-about-it/
There is actually a valid Biblical answer to that.

[Crazed_Insanity]

As usual, you completely miss the point.

What do you expect me to hit with a pointless meme?

[thesameguy]

Hey man, don't let anything get in the way of a good meme. That's internet 101.

[Kchrpm]

What do you expect me to hit with a pointless meme?

It wasn't pointless. The point is saying that you don't need to talk about God, Jesus or the Bible to be brought up when you're teaching people about love, compassion, respect and kindness. When you tie your lessons and message to a specific belief system, you're likely to alienate some segment of people. When you tie your lessons and message to life itself, you're far less likely to do so.

My guess is that meme came around during the Kim Davis thing, there were a lot of memes created then about how someone did a job despite having a belief that contradicted it.

[thesameguy]

Totally agree with what you're saying, the meme relates a story and relies on the viewer to draw an "obvious" conclusion - but the conclusion itself has no science to support it. The suggestion that a) Mr. Roger's teaching yielded any desirable result or b) that his religion-less message was they ke is non-science. It's just anecdotes - and not funny enough to offset its uselessness.

[overpowered]

It wasn't pointless. The point is saying that you don't need to talk about God, Jesus or the Bible to be brought up when you're teaching people about love, compassion, respect and kindness. When you tie your lessons and message to a specific belief system, you're likely to alienate some segment of people. When you tie your lessons and message to life itself, you're far less likely to do so.Bingo.

[Crazed_Insanity]

It wasn't pointless. The point is saying that you don't need to talk about God, Jesus or the Bible to be brought up when you're teaching people about love, compassion, respect and kindness. When you tie your lessons and message to a specific belief system, you're likely to alienate some segment of people. When you tie your lessons and message to life itself, you're far less likely to do so.

My guess is that meme came around during the Kim Davis thing, there were a lot of memes created then about how someone did a job despite having a belief that contradicted it.

Mr Roger's not doing anything that's contradicting Christian belief. Remember, to us Christians, God is love. Preach love is basically preaching God.

Rather than praise and worship music, my wife also started a ministry producing songs without overt Christian messages, but contains messages of hope and love too. But my wife is not doing it because she has decided to give up on God... she's doing it for God. I don't know exactly what's Mr Roger's motive, but I suspect it's probably similar.

Anyway, did God really create this world? If you believe so, then talking about love in the name of Jesus is fine. If not, then the least we can do is to preach love..., but still surely there will also be some who find love offensive too and will continue to bully other kids/people. I think the most critical point is that teaching/preaching about God/love is pointless. Yes, we Christians are commanded to preach, but most importantly, we're commanded to love! Folks have to actually feel the love themselves in order to change. Actions are always louder than words.

We really don't need to talk about a lot of things in order to be politically correct.

Looking at history, the Chinese were doing just fine without Jesus for thousands of years. We know how to love and be kind. We human beings all fundamentally know how to love one another, but we also know how to fuck one another... and history has shown that we are fuckers more often than we are lovers.

Jesus was sent to help give up our fucking tendency and increase our loving tendencies. However, God is not into arm twisting either. If you don't want Jesus, you don't have to have him. Feel free to dump him.

Jews didn't want him. Europeans embraced him.
Europeans eventually decided to give up on him, then he moved to America.
Based on current trend, eventually America will decide to give up on Jesus, then hopefully he'll finally move to Asia!

Anyway, I still think it's a pointless meme and I don't think even Mr Rogers himself would find it interesting. Lastly, for those who really hate Jesus, I wonder how many of them really love Mr Rogers. ;)

[Kchrpm]

Mr Roger's not doing anything that's contradicting Christian belief. Remember, to us Christians, God is love. Preach love is basically preaching God.
Tell that to almost every single other Christian that talks about love, compassion, respect and kindness in public forums. Including yourself.

But that's the point. You CAN, as a Christian, share lots of great messages and morals with other people, without tying them all to the Bible and the people and stories therein. But you don't. You lean on things that your audience does not believe in, and in some cases actively detests, to make points that do not need those things.

Mr Rogers knew and exemplified the fact that the right messages, the right lessons, didn't need backing from some mystical being or his progeny. That they were universal, and could be accepted by anyone based on reason, not faith.

That's the point.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Look at it this way. Someday, some extremists might take Mr. Roger messages and turn it into Rogerism. Then people's gonna complain to those extremists to stop referring to Mr. Rogers already!!! Why do you believe what Mr. Rogers has to say? You don't need nobody to tell you how to be loving and kind and respectful!

Is the message of love really can't allow for a famous messenger? (Or maybe annoying followers end up killing the msg... ;))

A religions is NOT all about its extremists. Christianity isn't about Christians. A belief isn't all about the believers. Is Jesus'/bible's message good or not? You can figure that out yourself. Or you want to take the good parts and forget the parts that you don't like, that's fine too.

Mr. Rogers did a great job, but his great achievement isn't because he did it without invoking God's name!

I don't know Mr Roger's personal life and I have no reason to believe that he stop believing in Jesus and rejected his Christian education.

To claim Mr. Roger's great work as if he's trying to hide Jesus is rather pointless to me. Do you really think Mr. Rogers would fully agree with that meme or be shaking his head with it?

Lastly, do you really believe love is reason based? People all fall in love because of good reasons?

Not trying to knock down reason and rational thinking, but human beings are not mere computers or Vulcans. We've given the ability to make choices with insufficient information. Of course our gut feelings/bogus faith/false hope might lead us down a wrong path sometimes, but we might also end up on the right path too. Better than just getting stuck with a syntax error...

Anyway, I really believe we ought to just love for no reason at all. (I'm saying that without invoking Jesus' name! )

[21Kid]

Don't waste your time... it's pointless trying to talk to him reasonably.

[Kchrpm]

Indeed, Kid. He misses the points he isn't trying to make.

[overpowered]

Indeed, Kid. He misses the points he isn't trying to make.QFT

[Crazed_Insanity]

Exactly, how can I get a point which I'm not making? ;)

However, I really think that meme is exaggerating a point which Mr Rogers isn't trying to make. His main goal is just to teach love, not to teach love *without mentioning Jesus*!

Ted Cruz can mention God Jesus and the Bible all he wants in his political speeches and that doesn't mean I'll automatically agree with him on everything and would vote for him. Just because somebody who sounds very religious doesn't mean I'll automatically want him/her as president or even pastor.

Now, if Ted Cruz were to stop mentioning God Jesus and the Bible like Mr Rogers, will you guys all of a sudden find him more appealing?

I get your point, but do you guys see my point?

[Kchrpm]

If someone is basing their decisions on reason, life experience and critical thinking, and defending them with those same things, rather than simply saying it is the word of a mystical being that I don't believe in, then yes, I will find him more appealing.

Person A: "I disagree with you based on these facts, these studies and these experiences."

Person B: "I disagree with you because this 2000 year old book tells me to."

If I still disagree with both of these people, I will still most likely have more respect for Person A.

[Crazed_Insanity]

That's fine. You are entitled to give your respect to whoever you like.

Now, consider this:

Mr Rogers: "Let's love one another!"

Jesus or Billi referring to the bible: "Let's love one another because God the Father said so!"

You would really say amen to Mr Rogers and then tell Jesus or Billi to just fuck off? All because you believe bible is a book that's too old and must've way passed its expiration date?

That really sound 'reasonable' to you? To fully embrace and then reject the same message all because God is invoked?

I like Jesus's teaching..., but teacher, I don't like you so you can go. Mr Rogers, if someday you gain a huge influence and bunch of followers, I can stay in your neighborhood, but can you please go too?

[tigeraid]

Now, consider this:

Mr Rogers: "Let's love one another!"

Jesus or Billi referring to the bible: "Let's love one another because God the Father said so!"

You would really say amen to Mr Rogers and then tell Jesus or Billi to just fuck off?


Yes. One is because it's the right thing to do, one is because you are being forced to do so on penalty of eternal damnation.

[Kchrpm]

Now, consider this:

Mr Rogers: "Let's love one another!"

Jesus or Billi referring to the bible: "Let's love one another because God the Father said so!"

You would really say amen to Mr Rogers and then tell Jesus or Billi to just fuck off? All because you believe bible is a book that's too old and must've way passed its expiration date?

I would not tell Jesus or Billi to fuck off. I just would have less respect for their message, because I believe they are taking their rules to live from a book that presented fictional/exaggerated moral quandaries and showed how a fictional/exaggerated character handled them. It'd be like if I told you I wasn't going to give in to fear and anger because Obi-Wan told me not to.

The point is that when your message comes from what your recipient considers a questionable source (the Bible or Star Wars), then though they may agree with some part of the message because it makes sense analytically (love one another, don't give in to anger), there's always the lurking knowledge that you may also fully believe in something that source says which is not analytically true, and you will defend it with just as much fervor.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Yes. One is because it's the right thing to do, one is because you are being forced to do so on penalty of eternal damnation.

Yes, you know in your heart that it is the right thing to do.

However, once you realize hell is also an option, you decided to forget about what's you know is right and choose hell instead?

Very rational.

[MR2 Fan]

Yes, you know in your heart that it is the right thing to do.

However, once you realize hell is also an option, you decided to forget about what's you know is right and choose hell instead?

Very rational.

Unlike the 10 commandments, a lot of real life situations are much more complex than a doing "good vs evil" decision.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I would not tell Jesus or Billi to fuck off. I just would have less respect for their message, because I believe they are taking their rules to live from a book that presented fictional/exaggerated moral quandaries and showed how a fictional/exaggerated character handled them. It'd be like if I told you I wasn't going to give in to fear and anger because Obi-Wan told me not to.

The point is that when your message comes from what your recipient considers a questionable source (the Bible or Star Wars), then though they may agree with some part of the message because it makes sense analytically (love one another, don't give in to anger), there's always the lurking knowledge that you may also fully believe in something that source says which is not analytically true, and you will defend it with just as much fervor.

Message remained the same. Does it really matter where it came from? If something is true, it'd remain true whether it came out of the mouth of OB1 or FSM or Jesus.

Yes, the same truth could become less respectful out of different mouths or sources to us humans, but to a computer or Vulcan, it wouldn't be any less true.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Unlike the 10 commandments, a lot of real life situations are much more complex than a doing "good vs evil" decision.

No kidding.

God giving us the Bible doesn't mean we can now completely shut our brains off and just follow the Bible code.

We are still required to think and make up our own minds.

And to further respond to Kchrpm's post... we can't always show something to be analytically true or false in life, but life must go on! So what do we do when we lack solid analytical data?

Then I go to the bible.

You guys can go to your gut feelings or just sit on the fence until valid data comes in I guess.

It's our life and we all get to choose how we want to move forward in it.

We also choose to respect different things in life as well I guess.

[Kchrpm]

Message remained the same. Does it really matter where it came from?
I'm not questioning the message, I'm questioning the person it came from, and therefore any other messages they might say. They are akin to a broken clock, sometimes correct out of luck rather than correct out of design.

[Kchrpm]

And to further respond to Kchrpm's post... we can't always show something to be analytically true or false in life, but life must go on! So what do we do when we lack solid analytical data?

It's not about being true or false, it's about making sense analytically. A plane doesn't fly because of anything in the Bible, it flies because people analyzed the world around them and acted upon what they found.

[LHutton]

...but helicopters are definitely witchcraft.

[Dicknose]

Gyrocopters are witchcraft

[Drachen596]

Helicopters are religious. They all have a Jesus Bolt.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Kchrpm, I understand you're only disrespecting the messenger... a better analogy is probably a broken record than a broken clock, right? ;) If you know a clock is broken, yet it end up giving you multiple times the correct times, then that would be screwy, right? Whereas a broken record may be spewing out the truth, but its repetitiveness causes folks to want to just filter it out out of annoyance... so I get what you're saying.

Bible and Jesus has remained the same yesterday, today and in the future as well. They are at definitely at risk of being perceived as a broken record. But if you examined and understood the true *pointes* Bible and God wants to deliver, then it wouldn't sound so annoying.

Bible is also not about making sense analytically. It won't teach us how to build things. I can't really go to the bible if I want to invent something. I can perhaps only look for inspirations, but might as well just look at God's handyworks in nature. Bible just said that God designed and created the birds. Without them, humanity probably won't ever get inspired to invent planes. Or, if evolution didn't luck out and evolved birds, we might not get inspired to fly. Which ever version of the theory you wish to believe.

But anyway, considering Jesus also walked on water and flew away, it's probably only a matter of time before we figure out how to do likewise! ;)

[Kchrpm]

Kchrpm, I understand you're only disrespecting the messenger... a better analogy is probably a broken record than a broken clock, right? ;)
Nope, broken clock. If a clock is stuck at 2:45, it will be right whenever I check for the time at 2:45 am and 2:45 pm. That doesn't mean it's right if I check it for anything else.

A growing number of people believe that yes, the Bible is right if you check it for certain things, but wrong for the vast majority. Therefore it cannot be trusted overall, and anyone who believes something to be true simply because it's in the Bible cannot be trusted overall.

No more than I could trust someone with a broken watch to tell me what time it is, even though they'll be right twice a day.

[Kchrpm]

Bible just said that God designed and created the birds. Without them, humanity probably won't ever get inspired to invent planes. Or, if evolution didn't luck out and evolved birds, we might not get inspired to fly. Which ever version of the theory you wish to believe.

Has man ever been able to fly the way that birds do, by flapping wings? We figured out simple principles from experience and experimentation. Even if we never saw animals flying, someone would have noticed the same phenomenon I did as a kid: get going fast enough on a bike/boat/car/plane and stick your hand flat into the wind and it will push it up or down based on the angle you have your hand.

[21Kid]

WITCHCRAFT!!!

[Crazed_Insanity]

growing # of folks "believe" vast majority of the bible is wrong?

Can you just give me a few examples?
Ideally, we should try to tear down the bible wrongness using proven analytical means... Not just with beliefs.

[Kchrpm]

That God created everything, Adam and Eve were the first humans, the whole universe is 6000 years old, gay people shouldn't allowed to be married, heaven and hell exist, divorce shouldn't be allowed, Jesus Christ is the son of God, Jesus Christ walked on water, a man named Noah built a huge boat which two of every animal on Earth traveled to so they could be on during a flood, that God has complete control over everything that happens and it's all part of his plan, etc.

Basically the number, if not percentage, of non-Christian adults is rising.

[Kchrpm]

List of actions prohibited in the Bible, some of which are considered by fundamentalist Christians to be punishable by death: http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/List_of_actions_prohibited_by_the_Bible


Some of the things listed on here would be frowned upon/discouraged/whatever by those considering things analytically. Others (including eating a cheeseburger, mixing material in clothing, and trimming your sideburns) would not.

[Crazed_Insanity]

That God created everything, Adam and Eve were the first humans, the whole universe is 6000 years old, gay people shouldn't allowed to be married, heaven and hell exist, divorce shouldn't be allowed, Jesus Christ is the son of God, Jesus Christ walked on water, a man named Noah built a huge boat which two of every animal on Earth traveled to so they could be on during a flood, that God has complete control over everything that happens and it's all part of his plan, etc.

Basically the number, if not percentage, of non-Christian adults is rising.

1) God created everything- This is something cannot be proven either way. Christians believe God, atheists can believe whatever they want to believe.Nobody can analytically prove Bible must be wrong that God doesn't exist and universe doesn't need God to create anything.
2)Science has shown that modern humans all came from the same singular mother. Whether her name is Eve or not, of course that also cannot be proven.
3)Our universe could indeed only be both around 6000 years old and 1.4 billion years old depending on your reference frame. Using Einstien's theory of relativity, if you're inside the universe, it can certainly feel like universe is 1.4 billion years old. However, if you're outside of this expanding universe or if our universe doesn't ever expand, then the age of our universe would be just about 6000 years old.
4)Bible never specifically banned gay marriage. It banned gay sex... it also banned premarital sex and out of wed lock sex. They're all sins. However, Bible also indicated that love can cover up all sins. Gay marriages are not ideal... just as in the old days God also 'allowed' for polygamous marriages. The ideal marriage according to the bible is 1 man and 1 woman, but of course in this world, we often have to be real and can't always live up to that ideal.
5) heaven and hell exist- even in a non-literal sense, we can often see heaven and hell on earth. Is there a literal heaven and hell or after life? Again, difficult to prove either way.
6)divorce shouldn't be allowed-Again, loving marriage is the ideal, but sometimes we gotta be real. Plenty of Christians have gotten divorced. We're only human. Still, whenever we decide to enter into marriage, should we really be prepared for a divorce? It really shouldn't just be a contract that we can just cancel it lightly.
7)Jesus is Son of God, Noah's Ark, etc- again, who can prove these? We can only chose to believe it or not.

Lastly, when majority are Christians, it doesn't prove Bible is indeed true, just that most people believe it to be true.
Likewise, when majority are atheists, it also doesn't prove Bible to be false.

[Kchrpm]

The point is that saying something is true simply "because the Bible says so," when there are several things in the Bible (including those listed and more) that the person you're talking to does not believe to be true and/or rational, then your audience is likely to think you are not a rational person.

The majority of people believing anything doesn't make it true. It does mean, however, that if you're trying to convince that majority of something, you can't just use something they don't believe in as proof.

It'd be like me going to a Christian and telling them they should change their lifestyle based solely on what it says they should do in the Quran. You'll be receptive of anything that meshes with what you already believe, but you will question anything that clashes with it, and if the only support they have for their viewpoint is "the Quran says so," you will not take that as enough to accept it.

[Crazed_Insanity]

List of actions prohibited in the Bible, some of which are considered by fundamentalist Christians to be punishable by death: http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/List_of_actions_prohibited_by_the_Bible


Some of the things listed on here would be frowned upon/discouraged/whatever by those considering things analytically. Others (including eating a cheeseburger, mixing material in clothing, and trimming your sideburns) would not.

The whole point of the bible isn't to prohibit us and make our lives boring, but to set us free! Just as don't smoke and don't use drugs are not things told to us to restrict our freedom, but to help us be free from become addicted to them.

There are certainly fundamentalist who still follow OT laws, but most Christians don't really follow those things today. OT laws definitely 'expired' after Jesus came. Of course, Jesus didn't come to abolish the OT, but came to fulfill it and to help us Christians become even MORE free!

To continue to focus on because Bible doesn't allow me to eat cheese burgers so it must be crap in its entirety is truly missing the point of the bible. There were certainly rules added for the ancient Jews to help safeguard them at the time that may not be applicable today. Everything must be look at it in context. Bible is also opened to interpretation. Who's wrong who's right, only God knows... and also time will tell.

[Kchrpm]

To continue to focus on because Bible doesn't allow me to eat cheese burgers so it must be crap in its entirety is truly missing the point of the bible.
Then why do people justify their opinions on a subject, like same sex marriage and abortion, simply by saying the Bible says it's wrong? If the Bible saying something is wrong is enough for people to still consider it wrong, how can they pick and choose which things are enforceable?

If the Bible is meant to set us free, why is it being used to control the lives of those who do and do not believe it to be a factual document?

[Crazed_Insanity]

The point is that saying something is true simply "because the Bible says so," when there are several things in the Bible (including those listed and more) that the person you're talking to does not believe to be true and/or rational, then your audience is likely to think you are not a rational person.

The majority of people believing anything doesn't make it true. It does mean, however, that if you're trying to convince that majority of something, you can't just use something they don't believe in as proof.

It'd be like me going to a Christian and telling them they should change their lifestyle based solely on what it says they should do in the Quran. You'll be receptive of anything that meshes with what you already believe, but you will question anything that clashes with it, and if the only support they have for their viewpoint is "the Quran says so," you will not take that as enough to accept it.

Bible alone definitely did not convert me to be a believer. It doesn't really 'prove' anything.

We can only get to know God better by reading the Bible or Quran. Which God do you like better. Maybe neither. So remain as an unbeliever. It's okay, at least the God that I know is not into twisting people's arms.

[Kchrpm]

It's okay, at least the God that I know is not into twisting people's arms.
Many of his followers, however, are, and they say they are allowed to be because the Bible says they are, and to them no more justification is needed. That is what scares people.

That is not, in my opinion, the fault of the religion, it is the fault of the people. But that is why some people become distrusting of those who rely on their religion as a justification for their decisions. The same way many Christians do not trust people who don't believe in the Bible, because those people are viewed as potentially amoral villains who, without God in their life, have no moral center.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Then why do people justify their opinions on a subject, like same sex marriage and abortion, simply by saying the Bible says it's wrong? If the Bible saying something is wrong is enough for people to still consider it wrong, how can they pick and choose which things are enforceable?

If the Bible is meant to set us free, why is it being used to control the lives of those who do and do not believe it to be a factual document?

It is a living document and tons of things are opened to debate, not everything is addressed in that book. Now the tide has changed with gay marriage and I'm sure enough Christians have changed their interpretation of the bible in order for it to work out. I can't really speak for other Christians, but at least I still believe in Jesus and I believe Jesus is okay with gay marriages.

Anyway, I think most Christians are just afraid God might throw down fireballs again as He did on Sodom... so most Christians are probably trying to stop it out of fearing for their own lives from an Angry God! ;) But there was really a huge difference between Sodom and America. 1st of us, Sodom had very little believers. Abraham's newphew's family was probably the only family of believers. 2nd, People in Sodom would have no problem anal raping new comers into town. American can be pretty bad, but I don't think we're that bad yet...

[Crazed_Insanity]

Many of his followers, however, are, and they say they are allowed to be because the Bible says they are, and to them no more justification is needed. That is what scares people.

That is not, in my opinion, the fault of the religion, it is the fault of the people. But that is why some people become distrusting of those who rely on their religion as a justification for their decisions. The same way many Christians do not trust people who don't believe in the Bible, because those people are viewed as potentially amoral villains who, without God in their life, have no moral center.

I totally agree with you.

This is why I emphasized earlier that Christianity isn't really about the Christians, but about Jesus Christ.

If you only see the lousy/extremist Christians, it'll for sure be difficult to believe.

However, not all Christians are like that.

Jesus is the doctor here to help fix us. Don't come into the hospital and see a lot of sick people and then just assume that this hospital sucks! Believe it or not, Jesus is turning them around. Jesus has been turning people around for 2000 years! Bible's influence on various cultures on earth should be pretty obvious. Much better than Quran's influence at least...

[Kchrpm]

If you only see the lousy/extremist Christians, it'll for sure be difficult to believe.

That's not why it's difficult to believe in a guy that could walk on water and also turn it into wine whose dad is an omnipotent being that can see and semi-control everything that has ever happened or will ever happen, and that chooses to give deadly diseases to small children, because it's part of his plan, but allows truly evil people to remain healthy for decades while they enslave and murder innocents, presumably also because it's part of his plan.

The sooner that people stop trying to claim that religious texts are non-fiction, and focus purely on the messages of positivity, giving love and being humble, the better off we'll all be.

[Crazed_Insanity]

If David Blain and Chris Angel can turn beer into wine and walk on water, what's the big deal for Jesus to do it?

Deadly disease on small children is not going to disappear once we get rid of Bible.
Truly evil people enjoying long lives also won't disappear once we get rid of Jesus.

If you wish to believe it's tough luck or something is just fucked up, that's certainly fine.

If I want to believe God can make all things, good and bad, work together to benefit those who love Him, what's it to you?

Europeans embraced Jesus and it didn't cause their decline.
Americans embraces Jesus and that also didn't cause their decline.

Why are you so quick to judge that Jesus and the Bible are bad influence on people after 2000 years of testing?

I'll be impressed to see Europeans becoming world leaders again as secular nations.
I'll also be impressed if America can continue to be a world leader without Christ.

Let the test begin.

[Kchrpm]

If David Blain and Chris Angel can turn beer into wine and walk on water, what's the big deal for Jesus to do it?/quote]
They can't. It's an illusion. If a politician came out and said they believed David Blain truly did have magical powers, they'd be ripped to shreds and their political career would be over.

[quote]Deadly disease on small children is not going to disappear once we get rid of Bible
Truly evil people enjoying long lives also won't disappear once we get rid of Jesus.
Of course not. Many would argue that, with an all powerful omnipotent God, that they should not exist. It's difficult to convince those people otherwise.


Why are you so quick to judge that Jesus and the Bible are bad influence on people after 2000 years of testing?

I never said it was, and I don't think it is. Christianity, like every other religion and basically everything ever filtered through mankind, is used by some for their own personal gain rather than the benefit of society as a whole. That doesn't make it bad.


I'll be impressed to see Europeans becoming world leaders again as secular nations.
I'll also be impressed if America can continue to be a world leader without Christ.

Let the test begin.

How is the test going to begin when being anything other than openly Christian would prevent you from being President?

As for European nations being world leaders, many would argue they already are in key areas (engineering and manufacturing come to mind). As for them being secular, I wasn't aware they were, other than in an official capacity. Officially the US is secular as well and always has been.

[overpowered]

Apparently women are dicks.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/history/630002/Eve-made-from-Adam-penis-not-rib-Christians-furious

[novicius]

Keef is crushing it. :up: :up:

[Crazed_Insanity]

Apparently women are dicks.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/history/630002/Eve-made-from-Adam-penis-not-rib-Christians-furious

Ha..., that is an interesting interpretation. I didn't even know most other mammals have penis bones!

[overpowered]

Keef is crushing it. :up: :up::up:

[Crazed_Insanity]

Dudes, we're just having a discussion about religion, not really about krushing one another! :p



They can't. It's an illusion. If a politician came out and said they believed David Blain truly did have magical powers, they'd be ripped to shreds and their political career would be over.
Those illusionists never made claims to be equal to Jesus though. Plus, do you remember seeing Harrison Ford told Blain to get the fuck out of his house after a freaky trick? Do you really think Harrison Ford still doesn't believe David has magical powers? Do you see Han Solo's career over? Well..., I guess it's over now, but not because of David Blaine! :p



Of course not. Many would argue that, with an all powerful omnipotent God, that they should not exist. It's difficult to convince those people otherwise.
Those are all arguments from unbelievers. Yes, in theory, there'd would be no need for an Omnipotent God to allow for evil. According to the bible, that's how God created everything. Everything good. According to the bible, the world is what it is now only because Adam and Eve chose to not believe in God's warning and decided to want to have the knowledge of good AND EVIL! So we got our wish and lived miserably ever after. However, all hope is not lost though. Omnipotent God can still make things good even when there are evil things around.


I never said it was, and I don't think it is. Christianity, like every other religion and basically everything ever filtered through mankind, is used by some for their own personal gain rather than the benefit of society as a whole. That doesn't make it bad.
When religion is used for selfish personal gain, it will be bad. Love by definition shouldn't be selfish. This is true even for Christianity. When the church is corrupted by selfish interests while holding real political powers, naturally it'll be bad and lead society into the dark ages. But of course such a church isn't really following the teaching of Jesus or the Bible. Just using them for their personal gains. Back then, people don't really have access to their own bibles too...

So by not allowing churches to have political powers and give people direct access to the bible without filtering was a good step forward. Anyway, glad you at least realize Jesus and the bible aren't bad.




How is the test going to begin when being anything other than openly Christian would prevent you from being President?

As for European nations being world leaders, many would argue they already are in key areas (engineering and manufacturing come to mind). As for them being secular, I wasn't aware they were, other than in an official capacity. Officially the US is secular as well and always has been.
In a free society, especially freedom of religion, people are now free to choose to believe whatever they want. Even in a theocratic state, supposedly everybody is a Muslim, but how can people tell who REALLY believe? We can only truly tell if people are free to choose, right?

It's obvious most Europeans have abandon their faith in Jesus. America is also on a decline, right?

At least my observation had been that societies seemed to develop the best while their faith level is high. Europeans was dominating the world. For sure they are still leaders in a lot of areas, but their world domination days were certainly over.

With our declining faith level, US's dominance will soon be over too. That's just my prediction.

[21Kid]

Has Billi gotten around to arguing against himself yet? :lol:

[MR2 Fan]

Yep, and sour cream sales cause motorbike accidents

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/05/28/article-2640550-1E45C57300000578-400_634x281.jpg

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2640550/Does-sour-cream-cause-bike-accidents-No-looks-like-does-Graphs-reveal-statistics-produce-false-connections.html

[Crazed_Insanity]

If the data correlates for thousands of years, hey, maybe you're on to something! :p

[Kchrpm]

It's obvious most Europeans have abandon their faith in Jesus. America is also on a decline, right?

At least my observation had been that societies seemed to develop the best while their faith level is high. Europeans was dominating the world. For sure they are still leaders in a lot of areas, but their world domination days were certainly over.

Pretty sure World War II had more to do with the current alignment of power in the world than faith.

But let's look at this another way, let's compare a country that's been in major financial troubles lately, Greece, to a couple of countries that are booming and many consider the most important markets in the world, India and China.

Country / Christian %-age of Population
Greece / 88.10*%
China / 5.10*%
India / 2.50*%

If US loses it's dominance, it will be to China or India. Maybe we should get more like them and start losing our faith in Christianity en masse?

[Kchrpm]

Omnipotent God can still make things good even when there are evil things around.

Yet he still allows children to be stricken by cancer, or raped by those who claim to be his representations on Earth. When is he going to stop making his son appear on pieces of toast and start taking care of the real problems?

I don't expect you to have an answer for it, and any answer you do have would be unsatisfactory. That's why many people do not have faith in Christianity, and why they would question someone who has a blind faith in it, and wants to use that blind faith as their guide to lead the country.

Re: people reacting to magicians, yes, people have reactions to someone that does something they don't understand. If you watch someone make a half court shot in basketball, people will have a big reaction, too. We are amazed by the amazing, and confused by things we don't understand. It doesn't mean that we believe all those people have magical powers. Any good magician will make it very clear to you that they have no powers, and that everything they show you is an illusion. The ones that do otherwise need to have a talk with Penn & Teller.

[LHutton]

But when you consider the number of people in India, the GDP is pathetic, and they're far from non-religious. As for China, well if you enjoy losing rights. Other countries with low Christian populations include Libya, Syria, Afghanistan and Iraq. They're booming too, always booming.

[Kchrpm]

You can find plenty of do-nothing countries with high Christian populations, too. The point is that a country's percentage of Christians has little to do with its current influence on the world, positive or negative.

Edit:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religions_by_country
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_religious_populations

[Crazed_Insanity]

I'm not historian, surely a LOT of factors come to play with regard to current formation of world powers. I do confess that I'm only looking at what I'm most interested in... so there may be confirmation biased at work. Clearly there are a lot of successful Christian nations... and there are also a lot of poor Christian nations. Likewise there are lots of other successful and sorry non-Christian nations. What I'm personally interested in is that does Jesus Christ's influence on a group of folks make any real difference or not? You can draw your own conclusions. We don't really have any conclusive analytical data. But at least we can agree that Jesus and the Bible don't cause the Dark Ages or financial problems. We're the problem. On the flip side, perhaps God has nothing to do with our successes either, we are in control of our own achievements... the universe is also in control of giving birth to life and banging itself into existence... I understand that it is possible that there's really no need for God to exist. But at the moment, I still believe in God! :p

I want to believe that in Christ, I can do all things! Nothing can limit me. Yet at the same time, I also want to stay humble and not do anything that God doesn't want me to do.

Children, good people, all of us could be blindsided by cancer. Yes, it's horrible. And if you believe after you're dead and that would be it... then that'd be even more horrible. According to the bible, humanity wasn't even suppose to die, let alone to die of cancer. But anyway, that was before. Now, we all will eventually face death with no way to get around it... except... God does offer us eternal life though. It's ours if we want to live forever with Him. Of course if you don't want to then you don't have to. I'm sure little children will have no problem with living with Jesus.

As for rape, whether by your own father or church father or some random stranger, they're all horrible. But God can still use such evils for good. Here's an example:
http://www.todayschristianwoman.com/articles/2013/july-august-issue/christine-caine-abused-but-not-defeated.html

Christine Caine was sexually abused by several men when she was young... interestingly her article might also explain to you why Christianity didn't help Greece.

Anyway, believe it or not. Jesus Christ is taking care of our problems. Even today. Just that he's not doing it in a way you want to do it. He has a much better way. His way has been working for more than 2000 years and is still working.

[Kchrpm]

I want to believe that in Christ, I can do all things! Nothing can limit me. Yet at the same time, I also want to stay humble and not do anything that God doesn't want me to do.

That makes sense, and is mostly what I love about Christianity. It's the vain attempts to make everything else fit into God's plan, or to force others to not do what God doesn't want them to do, that has always grated on me and caused problems on a greater scale.

[LHutton]

You can find plenty of do-nothing countries with high Christian populations, too. The point is that a country's percentage of Christians has little to do with its current influence on the world, positive or negative.

Edit:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religions_by_country
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_religious_populations
I think you proved yourself wrong. See US, UK, France and Russia. There's 4 permanent UN members right there. And Germany... Sweden... Norway... Denmark... Iceland... Finland. Brazil, up and coming too. South Africa - most prosperous country in Africa. Australia, Canada. etc. More of an influence than you would like to think.

[Crazed_Insanity]

K, Once again I want to stress... preaching the Gospel doesn't mean shoving anything down people's throats. Perhaps some Christians have done it in a way that 's inappropriately, but at least according to the Bible, God wants people to make their own choices... whether good or bad. Even after Adam and Eve made a bad choice... even after humanity made series of bad choices, God still doesn't give up on us and continued to try to remedy the situation. Even God's salvation is up for us to choose. We don't have to have eternal life if we don't want to.

Besides being too preachy, yes, some conservative, fundamentalist, extremist Christians think that it's a good idea to try to ban sins away. Little do they realize if banning sins work, it would've worked out long ago with the Jews during the OT era. There'd be no need for Jesus Christ to come save us. Of all people, we Christians should be the ones to realize that laws cannot set us fully free. Rather than laying down more laws, Christians ought to learn to be as gracious as their Lord Jesus. We Christians are all saved by God's grace too and by faith, not by how good we are!

Anyway, you are absolutely right that conversions shouldn't be forced. God's way of living also shouldn't be forced. During the OT days, things were definitely a bit more forceful, but if you read the bible from beginning (Adam) to end (Jesus), God respects our freewill.

I think God's respect for our freewill is also one of the main reasons for evils in this world. If you want to choose to rape or murder or whatever, God's not going to play his forceful hand upon you to stop you. However, God can still take the messes you made and turn it around for good. That's the meaning of an omnipotent God. Doesn't matter what you do, God can still turn that around and use it for good. God not only can make something out of nothing, but can also make good things out of bad things.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I think you proved yourself wrong. See US, UK, France and Russia. There's 4 permanent UN members right there. And Germany... Sweden... Norway... Denmark... Iceland... Finland. Brazil, up and coming too. South Africa - most prosperous country in Africa. Australia, Canada. etc. More of an influence than you would like to think.

To me, there are basically 2 factors. Either White people are really just superior or it's Jesus doing it.

The 3rd factor would simply be that white folks simply lucked out. Someday, maybe the Africans, Arabs and the Asians will get lucky too. ;)

[LHutton]

To me, there are basically 2 factors. Either White people are really just superior or it's Jesus doing it.

The 3rd factor would simply be that white folks simply lucked out. Someday, maybe the Africans, Arabs and the Asians will get lucky too. ;)
Arabs are too busy chopping off each others heads for Allah and unfortunately the practice seems to have spread to Africa. Asians, maybe, who knows.

[MR2 Fan]

To me, there are basically 2 factors. Either White people are really just superior or it's Jesus doing it.

The 3rd factor would simply be that white folks simply lucked out. Someday, maybe the Africans, Arabs and the Asians will get lucky too. ;)

China had a more advanced civilization for thousands of years without Jesus

[Crazed_Insanity]

At least based on modern day prophets, the prediction is the Gospel will continue to move west in the northern hemisphere. From Israel to Europe then to America then to Asia then to middle east and then back to Israel. By then, it'll probably be time for Jesus to come back.

[Crazed_Insanity]

China had a more advanced civilization for thousands of years without Jesus

Not talking about the past here. Don't forget Egypt, Babylonians... Yes, for sure we don't need God to become powerful. History has also shown us that.

However, I'm talking within the time from of the past 2000 years. Does faith in Jesus make any difference?

[Kchrpm]

I think you proved yourself wrong. See US, UK, France and Russia. There's 4 permanent UN members right there. And Germany... Sweden... Norway... Denmark... Iceland... Finland. Brazil, up and coming too. South Africa - most prosperous country in Africa. Australia, Canada. etc. More of an influence than you would like to think.

The idea that countries are worse off because they are less Christian than America, and therefore the countries more Christian than us must be doing better, is not supported by this list. That's the point.


To me, there are basically 2 factors. Either White people are really just superior or it's Jesus doing it.

You should make it a little less obvious when you're trolling.

[LHutton]

The idea that countries are worse off because they are less Christian than America, and therefore the countries more Christian than us must be doing better, is not supported by this list. That's the point.
Err... but the list did support the idea. Not saying it's necessarily to do with religion but the list did support the idea. The only other major religions, are Islam (1.7 billion people too busy cutting off each other's heads), or Hindu and Sikh (India - doing okayish except for the aforementioned). Buddist - China, doing okay.

[Kchrpm]

There were plenty of predominantly Christian countries that are not doing well/are not powerful, and there are non-Christian countries that are doing well/are powerful.

Let's take a closer look and go to US states. Notice any trends in the top 10 or bottom 10?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_religiosity

vs

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_income


State Median Income (2014) % "Very Religious" %VR Rank
1 Maryland $70,004 28% 46
2 Alaska $69,825 28% 47
3 New Jersey $67,458 34% 34
4 Connecticut $65,753 31% 41
5 Massachusetts $64,859 28% 45
6 New Hampshire $64,712 23% 49
7 Virginia $62,881 42% 20
8 Hawaii $62,814 33% 37
9 Minnesota $61,814 40% 25
10 California $60,287 35% 31
11 Delaware $57,954 33% 38
12 Washington $57,835 30% 42
13 Wyoming $56,322 34% 35
14 Utah $55,869 57% 2
15 Colorado $55,387 33% 36
16 New York $55,246 32% 39
17 Rhode Island $53,636 32% 40
18 Illinois $53,234 39% 27
19 Vermont $52,776 22% 50
20 North Dakota $51,704 44% 18
21 Wisconsin $50,395 37% 30
22 Nebraska $50,296 44% 17
23 Pennsylvania $50,228 40% 24
24 Iowa $49,427 41% 22
25 Texas $49,392 47% 11
26 Kansas $48,964 45% 14
27 Nevada $48,927 30% 44
28 South Dakota $48,321 45% 15
29 Oregon $46,816 30% 43
30 Arizona $46,709 35% 32
31 Indiana $46,438 45% 13
32 Maine $46,033 25% 48
33 Georgia $46,007 48% 9
34 Michigan $45,981 37% 29
35 Ohio $45,749 39% 28
36 Missouri $45,247 44% 16
37 Florida $44,299 39% 26
38 Montana $44,222 35% 33
39 North Carolina $43,916 50% 8
40 Idaho $43,341 42% 21
41 Oklahoma $43,225 48% 10
42 South Carolina $42,367 54% 4
43 New Mexico $41,963 41% 23
44 Louisiana $41,734 54% 5
45 Tennessee $41,693 52% 7
46 Alabama $41,415 56% 3
47 Kentucky $41,141 47% 12
48 Arkansas $38,758 54% 6
49 West Virginia $38,482 43% 19
50 Mississippi $36,919 59% 1

[LHutton]

Income depends on the cost of living. If I moved to London, I could earn twice as much whilst still being the exact same person. However, the fact I'd have to pay the price of a 4-bed detached house for a single bed apartment makes the pay worse even though it's higher.

And that's the problem with these stats. You're looking at two variables only, ignoring every other variable and assuming they're correlated. Case in point:

http://gtxforums.net/showthread.php?663-Religion&p=63025&viewfull=1#post63025

A quick Google shows:

https://www.expatistan.com/cost-of-living/country/united-states
http://www.top50states.com/cost-of-living-by-state.html

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-IBHZLgInO8I/TY-zliC16dI/AAAAAAAAAVA/NRc7MJndYQ0/s640/cost%2Bof%2Bliving%2Bmap.Q4%2B2010.jpg

So yeah, surprise surprise, the income is higher in MA and AL.

[Kchrpm]

Cost of living can go up as income goes up, because people can afford more. The opposite is often true as well.


And that's the problem with these stats. You're looking at two variables only, ignoring every other variable and assuming they're correlated.

Yes, the point was that I was pointing out how silly it was to correlate a country's prosperity/power with it's belief in Christianity. Thank you for agreeing that there are far more variables involved. :up:

[Crazed_Insanity]

Jesus came not only to give us eternal life, but also help us live our lives to the full!

Is there really a single variable that indicates a full life?

Europeans' past success and US's current success are probably combination of many factors. I believe it's their faith which laid a solid foundation for their growth.

Now, is Jesus really just looking for 'religious' people?

I do believe Catholics and Orthodox Christians can still be saved by their faith, but I don't quite agree with the way those churches are run. Consequently they are less effective in enriching people's lives.

Of course there are also questionable Protestant churches, such as Westboro Batshitists, but thank God their impact on other Protestants is very minimal.

My point is that in societies that can have free access to Jesus and the bible, without the burdens of man made church traditions, namely the Protestants, tend to do better.

We can look at the same meme and see different things, likewise we can read the same bible or data and draw different conclusions.

We all have free will and we can choose to believe whatever we want to believe until the real truth reveal itself/himself!

[LHutton]

Cost of living can go up as income goes up, because people can afford more. The opposite is often true as well.
Chicken and egg but usually the cost of living happens first and there are many factors for it. Population density, historical reasons leading it to be a centre for finance and businesses. In the case of London, most of the property inflation is due to foreign billionaires buying up property as a form of investment. It has shit do with income or religion. It gained its status by being the capital, which came about because it was on a prominent river and the Royal Family lived there. For exactly the same job you get paid more, simply because it's in London.



Yes, the point was that I was pointing out how silly it was to correlate a country's prosperity/power with it's belief in Christianity. Thank you for agreeing that there are far more variables involved. :up:
Well I did say that.

http://gtxforums.net/showthread.php?663-Religion&p=63072&viewfull=1#post63072

[MR2 Fan]

Jesus came not only to give us eternal life, but also help us live our lives to the full!

Is there really a single variable that indicates a full life?

Europeans' past success and US's current success are probably combination of many factors. I believe it's their faith which laid a solid foundation for their growth.

Now, is Jesus really just looking for 'religious' people?

I do believe Catholics and Orthodox Christians can still be saved by their faith, but I don't quite agree with the way those churches are run. Consequently they are less effective in enriching people's lives.

Of course there are also questionable Protestant churches, such as Westboro Batshitists, but thank God their impact on other Protestants is very minimal.

My point is that in societies that can have free access to Jesus and the bible, without the burdens of man made church traditions, namely the Protestants, tend to do better.

We can look at the same meme and see different things, likewise we can read the same bible or data and draw different conclusions.

We all have free will and we can choose to believe whatever we want to believe until the real truth reveal itself/himself!

You like Jesus because it makes you feel better about yourself.

It's convenient that you only learn about whether God/Heaven really exists until after you're dead.

[LHutton]

Or not.

[Crazed_Insanity]

You like Jesus because it makes you feel better about yourself.

It's convenient that you only learn about whether God/Heaven really exists until after you're dead.

My entire post was about how I think Jesus can positively impact humanity in the here and now.

I don't understand why you need to quote my post and then respond the way you did.

Yes, I like Jesus because he does help me feel better. I also have no way to examine afterlife. This is why I'm interested in seeing how Jesus influences humanity in the past 2000 years.

[Kchrpm]

http://deadspin.com/monty-williams-calls-for-forgiveness-in-powerful-speech-1760037969?utm_source=recirculation&utm_medium=recirculation&utm_campaign=fridayAM

Some nice perspective in the comments, on the perspective that Monty Williams has after the tragic death of his wife in a car accident.



As someone who has denounced his Christianity — I still have a faith and belief in God, but fuck me if I’m gonna be lumped in with the intolerant anti-gay bible-thumping zealots — this was a powerful reminder of the good that religion does have, the way it can deeply heal and help persevere at our darkest times. The idea that we’re not alone in any of this, that is such a powerful lifeline for most people.

[MR2 Fan]

http://deadspin.com/monty-williams-calls-for-forgiveness-in-powerful-speech-1760037969?utm_source=recirculation&utm_medium=recirculation&utm_campaign=fridayAM

Some nice perspective in the comments, on the perspective that Monty Williams has after the tragic death of his wife in a car accident.

wow :up:

[Crazed_Insanity]

I guess Christian 'religion' is just about being lumped in with certain organized group of people.

However, it really shouldn't be just another 'religion' without the ability to think for one self and just be part of the herd.

Need to emphasize again that Christianity isn't about other sinful Christians, but it should be about Christ.

Having a true relationship with Christ should be about being lumped inside of Jesus Christ.

Anyway, Monty Williams and his wife are obviously lumped in there with Christ pretty good.

[overpowered]

http://www.tickld.com/x/pf/the-next-time-someone-uses-the-bible-to-say-homosexuality-is-a-sin

[LHutton]

The Old Testament is certainly bat-shit crazy, but it's more Jewish than Christian and the New Testament mostly contradicts it.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Hmm... let me try to be Dr Laura for a moment and answer his stupid questions...

1. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odour for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is my neighbours. They claim the odour is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?
Remember to love God and love your neighbors. If your BBQ smoke is choking them, maybe you should stop. Further, are you part of the tribe of Levites? If not, you are really not authorized to sacrifice anything to the Lord.

2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?
I think fair market price for her nowadays would be zero. If you absolutely cannot support her anymore, maybe you can give her up for adoption or something. If you want to make some money, why don't you get a job or sell your blood or organ or something. At least you can legally sell those things in today's market.

3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness - Lev.15:19- 24. The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.
You should try to minimize physical contact with women anyway. Most women do not like having strange men touching them in case you're not aware of this. If this woman is your wife and you have no clue about what's going on... then you're going to have a tough marriage! :p

4. Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighbouring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?
Okay, this is really meant for the Jews, not Americans. If Americans are really allowed to have slaves, surely God would side with the South and kick Abraham's butt.

5. I have a neighbour who insists on working on the Sabbath.. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?
No, you're not morally obligated if you don't want to. You should try to warn him first. Chill out a bit over the weekend, don't work so hard. Those who refuse to listen and continued to work hard without taking any days off and continued to offend God, God will take care of killing them. You can see lots of cases happening in Japan... people working themselves to death!

6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination - Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?
Yeah, that's tough, but sin is a sin. It's kinda stupid to argue hey, my sin is better than your sin! Remember scripture teaches that we can do all things in Christ! Of course that doesn't mean we can have sex with Jesus, but in Christ, or in love, we can cover all sins!

7. Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?
It's not just vision, the imperfect just cannot approach the perfect directly. Jesus is our priest... the Son of Perfect and also a son of the imperfect..., he can act as a bridge for us so that we can safely approach God.

8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?
I think that particular law was about forbidding a ritual custom back in the old days... when you shave in special shapes to honor particular pagan deity. As long as you're just grooming yourself, I'm sure it's okay to shave and trim as desire... nobody need to die for that!

9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?
Didn't realize footballs are made of pig skins! Anyway, remember back in the days, God didn't tell people about germs, just that certain things are dirtier than others. Today, even if your balls are made out of pig skins, surely it's been sanitized. Plus, your gloves will certainly help. Don't worry about it being unclean nowadays... unless you made your own pig ball? Just make sure you sanitize things properly, then you should be fine.

10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? - Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)
I think your uncle is not update to day with farming practices. Nobody plants 2 different crops on the same field at the same time. There may be crop rotation... different crops at different seasons, but no farmer in their right minds would plant 2 different things at the same time. Also, regarding modern day garments, thank God we now have labels telling us what's it made out of... so your aunt probably wasn't ripped off by the manufacturer... if she wants to save a little money buying cotton/poly blend, that's fine. That particular law was basically just telling garment makers NOT to rip customers off. Selling their stuffs as 100% cotton, but instead blended with something else cheaper. Anyway, before stoning them to death, you should 1st try to talk to them... help them understand. If they have their reasons to plant mixed crops or mixed blend garments, maybe you can learn from them. I personally don't try to mix anything in my garden and i also personally prefer 100% cotton.

Remember, rule of the thumb is that you should warn folks and advise folks or explain to folks why God's way is better. If they don't buy it, it's really not your responsibility to kill them. God is not always angry, He is a merciful loving God as well. If your killing urges just cannot be contained... then consider looking at the mirror. See how sinful you yourself are... and then commit suicide. Yes, kill your old sinful self... so that you can be born again in Christ! Hope I answered all of your stupid questions to your satisfaction! :)

[MR2 Fan]

See how sinful you yourself are... and then commit suicide. Yes, kill your old sinful self... so that you can be born again in Christ!


:popcorn:

[LHutton]

Honestly, if you have an alter and capture bulls for sacrificial slaughter, you're probably not:

a) A Christian;

b) Well-liked by farmers;

c) Sane.

[Crazed_Insanity]

:popcorn:

MR2fan, baptism symbolizes dying to your old sinful self(pastor drowning you by submerging you), and then to be raised back to life again in Christ(pastor lift you out of the water)!

Just as cancerous cells/tumors must die or be cutoff in order for the cancer patient to become healthy again.

Likewise, I try to commit 'suicides' daily... or cut off my cancerous sinful tumors daily(by repenting of my sins for example), in order for me to continue to follow my Lord Jesus Christ. If I don't try to carve out the sinful part of myself, if I continue to not do what my Lord said to do... or continue to do what my Lord said not to do, then it'd be difficult to continue to follow my Lord.

Jesus is like our chemo therapy..., but of course some may opt out of treatments..., they may prefer to just enjoy their remaining lives without getting better. This 'treatment' is purely voluntary, shouldn't be mandatory.

We have all learned to accept we are mortals and this world is just messed up and we bitch and complain that if there's really a God, the world really shouldn't be like this.

Well, had humanity humbly obeyed God in the first place, we'd all still be in a paradise called Eden right now. IMHO, I find it funny that we make unwise choices and messed things up and then we have the nerve to blame the mess on God...

Anyway, the loving God can certainly clean up our messes, but we must first learn to faithfully follow in His footsteps... 1st step is killing our sinful selves... or repenting of our own sins. (Not to kill off other sinners! :p)

[LHutton]

Wasn't baptism supposed to be about washing away the original sin perpetrated by Adam and Eve that all people are born with?

[Crazed_Insanity]

Sure that too. However, don't forget about the sin we commit ourselves. We can't really blame all of our own sins on Adam and Eve as we have absolutely nothing to repent about... need to take some personal responsibility here.

[LHutton]

But that's what confessions were for surely, not baptism.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Same difference actually. Baptism is like your very first public confession... mostly ceremonial. To Christians, it symbolizes death of old self and resurrecting with Christ!

kinda like a marriage ceremony, you only need to do that once, don't really need to have it again and again with the same spouse.

Of course you might fuck up again and again and piss off your spouse or vice versa on a daily basis... and the two spouses might need to repent and forgive each other daily in order to stay committed to one another...

[overpowered]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wogta8alHiU

[shakes]

As a Christian, I've been loosely following this thread and trying to formulate a response that addresses all of the different ideas being presented. I think I've condensed it down to a few key points.

1) Religion is bad. Organized religion is NOT what Jesus had in mind when he was undertaking his ministry. In fact, I believe he came to undo all of the organized religion that the Jews had imposed on themselves by taking their teachings too literally which leads to my next point. Churches full of rules, or tradition or a hierarchy of command are not what Jesus intended. Jesus for the most part didn't have mega-services. He taught in small groups based on real relationships and I think thats something that modern Christianity is glossing over.

2) The Bible is the word of God, but it isn't God. I'm a Christian, not a Bible-ian. I follow Christ and his teachings as presented in the bible, not the literal words of bible. I believe that everything in the bible points to Christ and serves a purpose. I don't know that I necessarily believe that the world was created in 6 days, but I do believe that it was created by a God who had a plan/design in place for the universe. When you read the bible, you have to look at the bigger point being made not necessarily the exact translation and placement of words in each sentence.

3) The world is a bad place. Its full of evil, suffering and hatred. Humans have free will, we can make the decision to do right or wrong and most of us will choose to do wrong before we choose to do right. The world we have now is a result of human choice. We are living with the results of previous generations' bad choices. The beauty of humanity is that we have free will, we are not mindless machines built to serve God. God could have created humans without free will to worship him for ever but the amazing thing is that he didn't. He gave each of us the choice to believe so when someone does put their faith in God, it is that much more incredible. God didn't just create us to worship and praise him all day long.

4) Some people just will not believe. No matter how convincing your argument is, no matter how much proof you can provide there are people who will not believe. All you can do for those people is pray for God to open their eyes. Preaching at them isn't going to do anything. It doesn't matter how well you know the bible and how effective you are at communicating your thoughts.

5) Christianity isn't about being perfect. Just like hospitals are for sick people, the church isn't for perfect saintly people. Its for people who have made bad choices, and are trying to do better. Just because I call myself a Christian, doesn't mean I'm a perfect human without fault. Being a Christian is about following the lessons that Jesus laid out and trying to grow into a person that is more like he was. Will I ever get there? Not in this life, but the point is that I try to be more like him in everything I do. The way I do my job, in my family life....it all needs to try and point back to Christ.

6) WWJD What would Jesus Do? I love this and hate this at the same time. I hate it because its almost an over simplification of things but I love it because its so simple. Being a Christian really boils down to asking yourself that one question over and over again. Not 'what does the bible say'? or 'what does my church/pastor believe?' but what would Jesus do or say.

[21Kid]

Good points Shakes... I wish more people thought that way.
A few of the issues that I have believing in any god/higher power are mostly re: #3 & #4, from my own personal experience.

3) The world is a bad place. Its full of evil, suffering and hatred. Humans have free will, we can make the decision to do right or wrong and most of us will choose to do wrong before we choose to do right. The world we have now is a result of human choice. We are living with the results of previous generations' bad choices. The beauty of humanity is that we have free will, we are not mindless machines built to serve God. God could have created humans without free will to worship him for ever but the amazing thing is that he didn't. He gave each of us the choice to believe so when someone does put their faith in God, it is that much more incredible. God didn't just create us to worship and praise him all day long. Maybe I took this the wrong way, and maybe you don't feel this way... But, why do people think that their faith can solve anything? Besides the 'good feeling' that people get from their belief, I have seen no benefit in any form, from religion. I realize that feeling is a major reason that people go to church. But, I get that same feeling believing in myself and other people doing good. And when humans do make the right choices in such a bad world, why give credit to an unknown entity, instead of celebrating that humans did something good on their own?

My mom was a born-again christian when she met my now step-dad. They became super involved in the chuch, went to every service, etc... I couldn't think of anyone more devoted to jesus than them. After a while, when I started doubting the system I started thinking about things like what you wrote above and my mom's situation.
Nearly every other week to every month, either my mom/step-dad/their daughter would get pneumonia, flu, respiratory infections, serious illnesses, broken bones (step dad is in construction). They just had a shit of a time for a good decade. And here I was, perfectly healthy, and openly denying any religion.

It also bugs me when they ask people to pray or ask god for help with something. And then thank him when the desired outcome happens. For example, my step-dad had a major accident at work and is now unable to work. He was in a coma and almost didn't make it. My mom & half-sister were doing that exact same thing, asking for prayers. And then thanking god when he got better. And it was very difficult for me to not say something about it. Their religion didn't do anything to help him, the nurses, doctors, medicine, etc... are what saved him. You can't tell me for one second that had it not been for the doctors, that their prayers did anything to help. But, who got the thanks when he recovered??? (hint: it wasn't the doctors/medical staff). And with all of the work my wife has put in over the past 7 years trying to become a doctor, it is beyond frustrating that they praise their god, when he had zero to do with his recovery.

Another thing I have seen a lot of lately is my cousin who is going thru a rough abusive divorce, saying that everything will be okay if you trust in jesus. But, what about the past abuse that she's been subject to? If he has a plan for everything, then he caused that too. And if she doesn't do anything to remove herself from that situation, her god isn't going to just magically make everything better. I don't understand why she would give credit to some unknown entity, when she is the one who has been so strong and taking care of her 3 daughters. It makes me pretty upset & sad that she doesn't give herself enough credit. So, it frustrates me when I see people putting weight behind their belief as a reason for their success. When there is 0 proof that their belief had anything to do with the end result.

4) Some people just will not believe. No matter how convincing your argument is, no matter how much proof you can provide there are people who will not believe. All you can do for those people is pray for God to open their eyes. Preaching at them isn't going to do anything. It doesn't matter how well you know the bible and how effective you are at communicating your thoughts. So, re: #4, what proof is there that believing in a higher being provides any benefit at all? outside of the aforementioned 'good feeling' one gets from their worship. And why should I be compelled to believe, when I get that same feeling of fulfillment from my own accomplishments?

[shakes]

The question about what does having faith accomplish or achieve is definitely a tough one for me to answer in a non-christian way. I have an answer but I don't want to get all preachy, so leave it with me for a while.

[21Kid]

:lol: fair enough. :)

[MR2 Fan]

It also bugs me when they ask people to pray or ask god for help with something. And then thank him when the desired outcome happens. For example, my step-dad had a major accident at work and is now unable to work. He was in a coma and almost didn't make it. My mom & half-sister were doing that exact same thing, asking for prayers. And then thanking god when he got better. And it was very difficult for me to not say something about it. Their religion didn't do anything to help him, the nurses, doctors, medicine, etc... are what saved him. You can't tell me for one second that had it not been for the doctors, that their prayers did anything to help. But, who got the thanks when he recovered??? (hint: it wasn't the doctors/medical staff). And with all of the work my wife has put in over the past 7 years trying to become a doctor, it is beyond frustrating that they praise their god, when he had zero to do with his recovery.

This reminds me of the documentary I saw about some doctors who went to North Korea to give eye patients surgery, I think for cataracts....after all of the people got better, as soon as they could see again, they basically praised their dear leader....didn't say anything about the doctors who actually DID the work, it was all for the dear leader.

I feel it's similar to religion, just a non-earthbound thing that forces its followers to worship "him".

I also had another thought recently about when people who are atheists discuss the bad conditions in countries like Iran and Saudi Arabia where religion dictactes everything, and that a country free from religion may be better..........people always bring up Russia or North Korea, places where religion is outright banned.

I realized the difference. Those countries FORCE people to abandon religion for the same reasons that Iran and Saudi Arabia FORCE people to abandon other religions...it's just worshipping a different leader. Atheism is a personal thing, and there is no large movement of an atheist church anything like that...it's just an individual difference and sometimes people get together and discuss it, but not much more than that.

[tigeraid]

The Stalin/Hitler/Pol Pot atheist argument is one of the most tired tropes religious nuts roll out all the time.

Hitler, right off the bat, was religious, was raised Catholic and while he did not adhere to that doctrine, Nazism was most certainly guided partly by belief in a "holy plan," and that the Nazis were God's chosen people.

And Communism, via Stalin and Pol Pot, was certainly atheistic in the literal sense, but again, you cannot attribute an action to a "lack of" a belief system. Stalin did not persecute and stamp out religion because "he believed in atheism," he did it because it got in the way of the people worshiping HIM as a deity. He strove to replace one belief system with another, it's just that the latter was not a religion.

There is no "system" or "religion" or "beliefs" with atheism. Atheism is the absence of these things. The only thing you can attribute to (MOST) atheists is an understanding and appreciation of logic, rationality and evidence.

[tigeraid]

1) Religion is bad. Organized religion is NOT what Jesus had in mind when he was undertaking his ministry. In fact, I believe he came to undo all of the organized religion that the Jews had imposed on themselves by taking their teachings too literally which leads to my next point. Churches full of rules, or tradition or a hierarchy of command are not what Jesus intended. Jesus for the most part didn't have mega-services. He taught in small groups based on real relationships and I think thats something that modern Christianity is glossing over.

4) Some people just will not believe. No matter how convincing your argument is, no matter how much proof you can provide there are people who will not believe. All you can do for those people is pray for God to open their eyes. Preaching at them isn't going to do anything. It doesn't matter how well you know the bible and how effective you are at communicating your thoughts.



These things are refreshing to hear, but I think a lot of Christians didn't get that memo. Certainly more of them did than Muslims, these days, though.

I have zero problem with someone worshiping whatever the hell they want. Whatever gets them through the day. Just don't bother me with it, or preach, or judge, and for fuck's sake keep it out of education and public policy.

And if you're quietly pious, and believe it's going to get you somewhere when you die, then so be it--there's no reason to bring anyone else into it.

And like I've said plenty of times before: if God really does exist, then either I'm going to go to heaven because I'm a good person and God knows that... or I'm going to hell because I didn't sit in a church on Sunday and eat a cannibal cookie--and if he's that jealous and petty and shitty, I wouldn't want to worship him anyway.

[Crazed_Insanity]

The question about what does having faith accomplish or achieve is definitely a tough one for me to answer in a non-christian way. I have an answer but I don't want to get all preachy, so leave it with me for a while.

Can I make an attempt? If not good enough, perhaps you can give us a better version! :p

Anyway, IMHO, why do people need to have faith in God or what does it do for us?

Rationally, logically,... we don't really need it. Just as hope and love. Do we really need them to make the world/galaxies go around? To make the universe expand?

If you view atoms, molecules, human bodies, planets, stars, galaxies,... as purely some mechanical machines, of course things like faith, hope and love are pretty useless.

They are indeed pretty much there just to help us feel better.

However, we are touchy feely emotional beings. It is super important for us to feel good rather than feel bad.

You can clearly see what a difference between a loving family or lovelessness family...

You can also see how being hopelessly depressed is no way to live... and that's why depression sufferers would prefer to just end it all. Nobody wants to live like that.

As for having faith, particularly in God, I do believe it not only helps me become a more hopeful and loving person, but it also helps me to have less fears... such as I'm not afraid of which ever clown that ended up in the White House... I know ultimately, God is in control of it all. Of course, I do pray that we can have Sanders. Yes, Sander's an atheist for now, but he is the best candidate by far! Hope God hears my plead.

But God should know best. Surely He knows what's really best for us. I can pray and plead and try to move forward one way, but if there's a better way, surely God will open up that better way for me too.

Of course we don't absolutely need to based our faith, hope and love on God. For people to function healthily, we must have some degree of faith, hope and love in something or somebody. Otherwise I'd think it'd be a pretty lousy existence. I chose to have faith in God because unlike other people or things in this universe, I believe God can't possibly let me down! :)

[MR2 Fan]

IMO, faith is strongest when conditions are the worst....because faith in a supreme being equates to order in the midst of chaos. It's why people say "God has a plan" or "God works in mysterious ways"

It's their way of saying that they can't understand what's going on, and therefore will only be able to cope with belief in something that has a "plan" beyond what they can comprehend.

[Crazed_Insanity]

21kid, you can't really just take a snap shot of someone's life and take that as proof that God didn't do anything or is lousy...

Take Job for example. His wife was very much like you... saw how useless Job's faith was when all those miseries happened. She was astonished that he's still faithful to this stupid God and tell him to just curse God and die! Don't be so stupid.

Similarly with Jesus himself, you could say God the Father caused all those torture and eventually death on the cross on his own Son! And He did NOTHING to save His own SON!!! What a lousy Father He is! How can He be trusted!

You see, since we have finite lifespans, it's really easy to make such snap judgments like that.

Only after we see the entire picture will we go... whoa!

Anyway, Jesus never promised us that having faith in God will give us a trouble free easy life. Our faith will only help us get thru life with a more positive attitude.

Even if God actually doesn't exist, having a positive attitude sure beats having a negative one right?

You don't have to believe in God if you don't want to, but why must you be so upset when others believe in God?

If you sustained injuries/sickness or stuck in an abusive relationship, will you be able to deal with such life experiences better than your parents and your cousin?

[Crazed_Insanity]

IMO, faith is strongest when conditions are the worst....because faith in a supreme being equates to order in the midst of chaos. It's why people say "God has a plan" or "God works in mysterious ways"

It's their way of saying that they can't understand what's going on, and therefore will only be able to cope with belief in something that has a "plan" beyond what they can comprehend.

Precisely!

If I have an awesome plan that can't go wrong and if I know everything that's going on, then I'm God! (And I wouldn't be needing another God to believe in...)

In a chaotic environment, believers still believe God is in control... God still has a plan for them... and able to stay positive.

As long as they're not totally delusional and unable to face reality, I don't see any problems with that. I don't see any issues with having a positive attitude in life.

How would atheists handle such chaos better?

[MR2 Fan]

21kid, you can't really just take a snap shot of someone's life and take that as proof that God didn't do anything or is lousy...

So you're implying we should use the scientific method!

[Crazed_Insanity]

Actually, I'm implying that God cannot be proved or disproved using whatever method.

For whatever reasons, God used 'faith' as a criteria for someone to join His club. If we can once and for all 'prove' God, it'd render God's criteria useless...

[MR2 Fan]

Actually, I'm implying that God cannot be proved or disproved using whatever method.

For whatever reasons, God used 'faith' as a criteria for someone to join His club. If we can once and for all 'prove' God, it'd render God's criteria useless...

How convenient

Edit: that may have been too snarky

[21Kid]

21kid, you can't really just take a snap shot of someone's life and take that as proof that God didn't do anything or is lousy...So you're implying we should use the scientific method!:lol: If he reads this... it wasn't a snapshot, just a few examples. I don't understand how one can place such faith in the unknown, when there are real/tangible things that one can attribute to themself. And on the flip-side, not attribute any of the bad things or say "it's all part of the plan"... because if so, he has a shitty plan for a lot of people that don't deserve it.



Actually, I'm implying that God cannot be proved or disproved using whatever method.

For whatever reasons, God used 'faith' as a criteria for someone to join His club. If we can once and for all 'prove' God, it'd render God's criteria useless...How convenient
Edit: that may have been too snarkynah!!! ;)

[Crazed_Insanity]

21Kid, your examples are snap shots of their lives, not their entire lives.

We can also take a snap shot of christians or some people who are truly evil who are at the moment healthy and wealthy, but that doesn't really prove anything.

Just as you can't judge a book just by reading a few pages. You have to examine those people's entire lives... and their earthly lives may not even be enough!

Consider Jesus, born in a dirty barn and pathetically killed on the cross. Nobody would considered him successful by any means at the time.

Forget about the bible claiming that he's now sitting at the right hand of God in heaven now, and even if we assume Jesus is just a fictional character... I don't think anyone today would consider him a failed dumbass for believing in God or that his bogus faith wishful thinking made little or no difference.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I think debates, discussions, or out right yelling matches just won't change any minds that are already set. I never thought I'll be a Christian either..., but somehow I changed. Who knows, maybe I'll change again? ;)

Anyway, for now I still believe in Jesus... and perhaps this favorite song of mine can help explain why I believe and why faith can be helpful?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HDv5wpycdj4&list=RDHDv5wpycdj4

Below are the lyrics:
I pray you'll be our eyes
And watch us where we go
And help us to be wise
In times when we don't know

Let this be our prayer
When we lose our way
Lead us to a place
Guide us with your grace
To a place where we'll be safe

I pray we'll find your light
And holds it in our hearts
When stars go out each night
Remind us where you are

Let this be our prayer
When shadows fill our day
Lead us to a place
Guide us with your grace
Give us faith so we'll be safe

A world where pain and sorrow will be ended
And every heart that's broken will be mended
And we'll remember we are all gods children
Reaching out to touch you
Reaching to the stars

We ask that life be Kind
And watch us from above
We hope each soul will find
Another soul to love

Let this be your prayer
Just like every child
Needs to find a place
Guide us with your grace
Give us faith so we'll be safe

Needs to find a place
Guide us with your grace
Give us faith so we'll be safe

[MR2 Fan]

A thought yesterday about quantum physics/mechanics......What if heaven is "real" in the sense that it is another dimension or part of the multi-verse and Jesus was aware of how quantum physics works, and he went to that other dimension on Easter, then trying to figure out how to get back for the rest of us to join him, so he'll return once he's figured it out..............

Yeah, it's out there, but so is everything else related to both of these fields

[thesameguy]

Is Jesus an alien, or is Jesus a superhuman from the future?

[LHutton]

A thought yesterday about quantum physics/mechanics......What if heaven is "real" in the sense that it is another dimension or part of the multi-verse and Jesus was aware of how quantum physics works, and he went to that other dimension on Easter, then trying to figure out how to get back for the rest of us to join him, so he'll return once he's figured it out..............

Yeah, it's out there, but so is everything else related to both of these fields
Well according to The Bible, he already did come back and then go back again in 3 days.

[21Kid]

A thought yesterday about quantum physics/mechanics......What if heaven is "real" in the sense that it is another dimension or part of the multi-verse and Jesus was aware of how quantum physics works, and he went to that other dimension on Easter, then trying to figure out how to get back for the rest of us to join him, so he'll return once he's figured it out..............

Yeah, it's out there, but so is everything else related to both of these fields :lol:



Is Jesus an alien, or is Jesus a superhuman from the future? I maintain that he was the first magician. "Watch me turn this water into wine!!! TADA!!!" :lol: "Look, I can walk on water." :lol:

[Crazed_Insanity]

The more we know, the more we realize we don't know jack, let alone Jesus! ;)

http://www.spring.org.uk/2016/03/religion-versus-science.php

It seems God made it difficult for our brains to accept the concept of both religion and science...

But not impossible. Religion and science (faith and analytical thinking) are not really mutually exclusive. Our brains ARE capable of doing both!

It's just that people who are simple minded probably tend to avoid analytical thinking... and people who've been hurt emotionally probably will find it difficult take on that leap of faith.

Jesus was sent by God, died on the cross, resurrected again in 3 days... and then flew up an disappeared in the sky and promised to return 'soon'. How soon is soon? Who knows, a day is like a thousand years and a thousand years is like a day for God. Although we can no longer see God the Father, Jesus nor the Holy Spirit, that doesn't mean God is no longer with us. God is always with those who believe in Him. Christianity...and the western worlds cannot be where it is today without God. That's what I believe. Can I prove it? Nope. It's up to you to believe whatever you want to believe! :p

[G'day Mate]

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/06/us/bible-could-soon-be-tennessees-officialbook.html?_r=0

:smh:

[thesameguy]

Really, it's good news. Now we can officially write of Tennessee and North Caroline. Done. It's over. No coming back.

[21Kid]

What about Mississippi?



Why do people think that separation of church & state doesn't apply to them? :erm:

[Crazed_Insanity]

What's the big deal if it's only done for 'historical' purpose?

I thought it was stupid to force removal of a cross on LA county seal. Like LA is really forcing it's citizens to follow Christ.

If Christchurch is a city in the US, people will probably go nuts and make sure it rename itself to ensure separation of church and state.

[G'day Mate]

The big deal is that it marginalises people of all other religions (and the non-religious). I'm sure Christians would feel quite marginalised if they'd chosen the Quran for its historical significance.

[Crazed_Insanity]

What is a 'state book'? Will govt force you to own such a book? Just like govt would force you to plant state flowers?

When miss has 80% Muslims, surely this will set a precedent to eventually adopt Quran as it's next state book.

It's a stupid knee jerk reaction, but really has little to do with state sponsored religion.

[Kchrpm]

State items are are considered symbols of the state. I'm not sure, but this might be the first official state book in the US. To say it has nothing to do with a state sponsoring a certain religion is naive. "No, we don't support any religion above others. We just think the Holy Bible, in all of its forms, is a symbol that represents us! Totally different." Makes perfect sense. "No, I don't have a problem with you, this artist's rendition of me holding your severed head while I make out with your wife is just a symbol that represents me! Totally different."

[G'day Mate]

http://southparkstudios.mtvnimages.com/images/shows/south-park/clip-thumbnails/season-4/0408/south-park-s04e08c01-racist-flag-16x9.jpg

[Crazed_Insanity]

When US picked eagle to represent us, it's intend is not to marginalize other animals... so best not to pick anything so that we won't hurt other animals' feelings?

Anyway, I just think people are going overboard with the separation of church and state idea... and I think this is also part of the reason prompting stupid bills such as these from Mississippi or Tennessee.

My point is that there's no persecution of any religious groups and there's no shoving an 'official' religion down in people's throats... so if a group of folks collectively wish to pick Bible as their state book, whatever.

Just as in New Zealand..., a group of zealous Christians wish to name their city Christchurch... what's it to you?

It'd just look funny later on that when Christians become a minority group there. It also proves that picking a religious sounding name or perhaps even picking bible as a state book won't ensure that your citizens will remain faithful or be converted to Christ. So don't worry so much guys!

I can agree the bill is stupid, but it really isn't that big of a deal.

Even as a Christian, I'm not even sure if I want to move to either Mississippi or Tennessee... adopting bible as a state book won't affect my decision one bit.

[Kchrpm]

But why bother having an official state book at all, if not to make a statement by its choice? If it doesn't matter, then why do it? What are you telling non-Christians that are considering moving to your state?

Why did politicians choose the bald eagle as a symbol of America?
"The American bald eagle was adopted as the national bird symbol of the United States of America in 1782. The bald eagle (Haliaeetus Leucocephalus) was chosen for its majestic beauty, great strength, long life, and because it's native to North America."
(http://www.statesymbolsusa.org/symbol-or-officially-designated-item/state-bird/american-bald-eagle)

Presumably it was compared to the other birds, and deemed superior to them as a symbol because of those factors. So why was the Holy Bible deemed superior to all other books, both religious and non? It's not the most historical book, it wasn't made in North America, it's not the only book with moral lessons, etc. Why would it get singled out by the government as a superior book to serve as the symbol of the state?

Is it a big deal? Maybe not to you or I, but what about to non-Christians that live there, or are considering living there? When Billy Joe Bob tells you the new Muslim family to go back where they belong, this is a CHRISTIAN state, how is the state going to tell him he's wrong?

"There is no official religion of Tennessee!"
"But the only official book of Tennessee is the sole basis of Christianity!"

It's not a big deal until someone uses it to make a big deal, and you stop that by not doing stupid shit like this in the first place.

If you really want an official state book, choose something written by a Tennessee author, or set in Tennessee, something that is specific to the state somehow. Don't just pick a religious text and pretend you're totally not showing preference to it, you just picked a good book that just so happens to be the basis of a religion, totally as a coincidence.

Should California adopt Scientology's religious texts as their official book, what would that say to you?

[Crazed_Insanity]

With regard to your last question...
1st, it wouldn't happen because... it'd be insanity and political suicide for whoever proposed the bill in CA.
However, it would not be that big of a deal or surprise to me if California is really made up of 80% Scientologists.

In such incidence, although it's 'no big deal' to me, I'd probably still move out of California even before they adopt a Scientology text as state book. I'm not sure if I can live in a State where 80% of the population is made up of Tom Cruises and John Travoltas. Unless God specifically tells me to stick around and try to convert them Scientologists... then maybe I'll stay. ;)

Anyway, this thing isn't worth debating. Like I said, I think it's a stupid idea too, however, I'm sure there are bigger fish to fry that adopting bible as state book.

[Kchrpm]

I'm sure there are bigger fish to fry that adopting bible as state book.
Yep, but they did it anyway!

[21Kid]

It's not official yet...

[overpowered]

5 presidential candidates left.

4 claim to be Christian.

The Vatican invites the one jew to speak.

[Crazed_Insanity]

He's only culturally a Jew, technically an atheist, but the only sensible candidate out of the 5.

[MR2 Fan]

so.....as I expected eventually, my new gf is a Christian....she's from the Philippines which is a very religious country...however she is a bit more liberal than most.

Now I have to explain to her that I'm more buddhist than Christian (She already knows this) but how to do it gently about why I'm no longer really a Christian, HOWEVER still support her and her beliefs.....lots of fun.

[FaultyMario]

There's a for dummies for that.

[overpowered]

Female masturbation is a direct path to Satan.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/mack-major-masturbation-satan_us_570c47cae4b01422324a02ee

[LHutton]

so.....as I expected eventually, my new gf is a Christian....she's from the Philippines which is a very religious country...however she is a bit more liberal than most.

Now I have to explain to her that I'm more buddhist than Christian (She already knows this) but how to do it gently about why I'm no longer really a Christian, HOWEVER still support her and her beliefs.....lots of fun.
Meditate in an orange monk costume. That should do it.

[Crazed_Insanity]

so.....as I expected eventually, my new gf is a Christian....she's from the Philippines which is a very religious country...however she is a bit more liberal than most.

Now I have to explain to her that I'm more buddhist than Christian (She already knows this) but how to do it gently about why I'm no longer really a Christian, HOWEVER still support her and her beliefs.....lots of fun.

Just repent of your sins and re-accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior and give thanks to him for giving you a new girlfriend!

Not only won't you die because of it, you'll also have eternal life and not to mention a new girlfriend.

Why make your life difficult? You're not really a buddhist, are you? Plus, Buddha won't mind. He just wants you to be happy.

Now, if you're serious about following the path of Buddha and reach enlightenment, remember to redenounce Jesus and break up with your girlfriend and quit eating meat too. You can't reach enlightenment with all those distractions.

If you're unwilling to give up meat, sex/love, you might as well be a Christian.

[Kchrpm]

I'm going to pretend that's a very funny joke and laugh.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I spoke very paradoxically... yes, I meant it as a joke to be funny and I also really meant it! :p

[Kchrpm]

Well, out of respect for you, I am only going to choose to see it as a joke and pretend you didn't really suggest that he give up his religious beliefs and accept some he doesn't believe for a woman. Or that he give her up for them when it isn't already a big deal to him.

[MR2 Fan]

Buddhism/Christianity are not mutually exclusive religions actually...there are some Buddhist Christians out there!