Religion

[Crazed_Insanity]

If it's legal, it should be allowed. If it's not legal, then the clerk has no power to allow gay marriage.

That case is pretty straight forward, no gray area. Kim Davis may not like gays, but she has to do her job accordingly. If she really feels uncomfortable doing it, she should ask others to fill in or perhaps just quit in protest. She has no power to deny that certificate.

The gay wedding cake case is in more of a gray area... If I don't want your business, should government really force my private business to do business with you? Plus, even if government succeed in forcing me to sell you a cake, would you dare eat it? ;)

Anyway, I think supreme court justices probably won't be dealing with a lot of clear cut wonderfully written laws... most likely they'll often enter into uncharted territories... yeah, they don't write laws, but the precedents they set can certainly be influential.

I don't need a Christian supreme court justice... because a westboro baptists are christians too..., but I'd prefer somebody with integrity.

It's just that I don't believe somebody like Judge Amy could really divorce herself from her faith on the job. Yes, that could be easily done on clearly written laws, but when it comes to poorly written or non-existent laws... what will she do? I just don't know.

All I know about her is that she said one thing under Obama admin and acted in another way under Trump admin. That alone would be enough for me to not confirm her if I were a senator.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Should you also recognise that your faith is yours - and not try to force it on everyone.
Not forcing it on anyone else here. Even if I were a supreme court justice, I also don't plan to force religion down people's throats.



And this is exactly where I think religion and laws shouldnt mix.
If this is your religious practice then it should only apply to people of the same religion.
If my religion says "dont eat pork, its a sin" should I stop everyone from eating pork??
Of course not. I think you need to update your responses in this thread. No where am I trying to pass Christian laws in this or the political threads.



They should follow the Golden Rule - if they wouldnt wont a Muslim or Satanist enforcing their religion as law, they shouldnt do the same to others!!
Christian laws and golden rule should be pretty much the same IMHO.


If you cant argue for a reason why a law/ruling should apply without an appeal to God or sin - then it shouldnt happen. If you best or only reason is "my religion says so", then it should only apply to your religion.
No argument here.


And you dont need to be an atheist to act like this. Just a decent person who can respect that not everyone has the same faith.
No argument here too. Decency and integrity should also come hand in hand. That's what I want in a supreme court justice.

Lastly, I think you have serious problem with God. You must think God is not a very decent guy to have such a biased opinion of Him. :p

Christians are definitely not perfect, but Christ's teachings are pretty decent IMHO. Back to G'day's post..., I really do believe the West owes a LOT to the teaching of Jesus Christ. I don't understand why a lot of you just refuse to acknowledge that history.

Freaking 2020 was based on Jesus for Christ's sake!

[G'day Mate]

Back to G'day's post..., I really do believe the West owes a LOT to the teaching of Jesus Christ.

And my follow-up question was which of Jesus's teachings were new things that decent people hadn't already figured out? The fact that society was able to exist meant that, by and large, people were being good to each other and had been for a long time before Jesus.

Undoubtedly Christianity is historically influential, but I don't like the way it lays claim to morality.

[Crazed_Insanity]

What exactly is morality? Who decides what is moral? What's right for me may not be right for you.

Bottomline is that we can't possibly define morals because we all have different sets of morals... everything in our universe relative, including space time. There are few absolute constants...

Golden rule is pretty agreeable by most. Yeah, Jesus doesn't predate that. Buddha predates Jesus' birth year as well..., but Jesus didn't just exist out of nowhere 2020 years ago. There's also his Father... who supposedly is the architect of our Matrix... and Jesus is just the Neo who's here to save us.

It is just my opinion that Jesus is the speed of light that doesn't change regardless of frame of reference and the timeless truth. It is also my opinion that the truth in golden rule can be very self evident. Nobody could really lay claim to it other than the Architect of this universe.

If you absolutely need to feel better about our universe being a random success and can't possibly have a Creator, I can respect that too. I'm just glad at least you also acknowledge christianity's influence on the West.

When Europeans practiced Christianity faithfully, things for sure worked out for them... in general, I don't think Christianity has been a bad influence.

BTW, besides being the timeless truth, Jesus is first and foremost full of grace. The new testament added grace on top of the old... point is that we cannot save ourselves even with perfect set of laws... we are all natural born law breakers! :p

Anyway, grace is essentially the new thing that Jesus brought to the table. Every other religions in the world has traditionally been performance based system. You have to do this or do that to gain entry. Jesus is the only one that doesn't demand anything from you. All you need is making the choice to believe...

[G'day Mate]

You seem to be taking the "morality is written on your heart by God" angle, which is neither provable nor falsifiable so ... where does that leave us?


When Europeans practiced Christianity faithfully, things for sure worked out for them... in general, I don't think Christianity has been a bad influence.

No true Scotsman ...

As for Jesus demanding nothing - Jesus demands your absolute loyalty/obedience/submission:


If any man come to Me and hate not his father and mother, and wife and children, and brethren and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple

That's one of many examples of this in the bible, as I'm sure you know. From my perspective it's a sick demand.

[Tom Servo]

Heh, glad I re-read your response, I was just going into the No True Scotsman thing. That's the kind of statement that tends to end up being reversed in practice: "If things didn't work out, that just means they weren't practicing Christianity faithfully." I.e., I'm sorry your parents died in that horrible tractor accident, it's probably because you didn't pray hard enough.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Yes. Can’t prove it true nor false, hence, faith based! ;)

God always gives us the choice to say fuck off if we want. Even amongst Christians, who has all of a sudden stopped sinning upon believing in Christ?

We are still practicing obedience. You don’t lose your salvation because you sinned again in moment of weakness. Just like quitting drugs..., no need to kill yourself for slip up, just have to try again... do better next time.

That particular word of Jesus you quoted, think of it his way, if your family or love ones were to try to persuade you to do some hanky panky stuffs, or someone were to threaten your life into doing something bad and you ‘obeyed’ them, then you can’t call yourself a follower of Christ, because you’re a follower of ‘them’. Makes sense, right?

Why would you call yourself a follower of Christ if you’re not interested in following him and could easily get distracted and follow others?

Lastly, there’s nothing wrong with loyalty/obedience/submission, you can only go wrong when you submit to the wrong person!

I don’t believe following Jesus had been bad for the West. Dark ages did not happen when the Europeans were faithfully following Jesus. However, Things can always turn around as long as we repent and truly follow Jesus.

Did Jesus helped the West or did the West helped made a sorry dude who die pathetically on the cross famous?

Look Jews didn’t want Jesus so gospel moved westward. If Europeans and Americans decided to abandon Jesus, Chinese will be more than happy to have him. :p

[G'day Mate]

Faith is a terrible premise upon which to create laws.

[Yw-slayer]

It's very simple.

If you claim to be Christian and view it as your mission to spread the Word To All Inferior Heathens/Pagans then:

a. When things are going/went well "It's All Thanks To God And His Blessings Which Proves I Am Right!!!"

b. When things don't work out the way you planned or didn't work out well for other allegedly Christian countries or whatever "It's A Test From God and/or You Need To Pray Harder and/or they weren't really Christians!!!"

There is no point arguing with these people. Just put them on Ignore. Or if you happen to run into them in-person, just nod politely and make your excuses before leaving them to their own deluded ramblings. :lol:

[Crazed_Insanity]

Faith is a terrible premise upon which to create laws.

Should slaves be set free? Prolife or pro choice? Should we allow gay marriages?

I ‘believe’ we definitely should set slaves free, after all Jesus’ primary mission was to set us all free. I also ‘believe’ Jesus is prolife, but also pro choice. He won’t twist your arm into receiving his eternal life... I also ‘believe’ love can cover up all sin, including homosexuality.

Anyway, you can definitely ‘believe’ the same without involving Jesus, but I don’t believe your belief must be based on a terrible premise...

Faith is not that bad dude. It’s only bad when you believe in the wrong thing. It may not even be bad to believe in Santa or tooth fairy because often time you may receive presents or money! ;)

Look, it is your 'belief' that your moral standard is right. Can you prove it to me that your morality is truly and absolutely right so that we can all start writing laws in accordance to your moral standard?

If you're humble enough to say that you're not sure if your morality is absolutely right, then what can we do to prove or ensure that the laws we write will indeed be always right?

A lot of human endeavors, including writing laws, requires a leap of faith mate! Otherwise nothing will ever be done.

[Crazed_Insanity]

It's very simple.

If you claim to be Christian and view it as your mission to spread the Word To All Inferior Heathens/Pagans then:

a. When things are going/went well "It's All Thanks To God And His Blessings Which Proves I Am Right!!!"

b. When things don't work out the way you planned or didn't work out well for other allegedly Christian countries or whatever "It's A Test From God and/or You Need To Pray Harder and/or they weren't really Christians!!!"

There is no point arguing with these people. Just put them on Ignore. Or if you happen to run into them in-person, just nod politely and make your excuses before leaving them to their own deluded ramblings. :lol:

I think the moral of the story is that... had the Europeans abandoned their stupid faith because it was no help at all since they still plunged into such dark ages... and then recovered fully without Christianity, then it'd be obvious that Christianity was definitely no help at all. Survival of the fittest, right? What sucks should just die off, right? Even between competing theologies?

Besides all the natural disasters, I personally believe the main reason for Europe to plunge in to the dark was because catholic church itself... supposedly the light of the world, had been too corrupted because it was given way too much power.

Without Martin Luther 'protesting', perhaps Christianity could've died out thanks to Catholic church...

Anyway, nothing is simple! :p If Martin Luther didn't do it, surely God can raise up another to get the job done.

[Dicknose]

Christian laws and golden rule should be pretty much the same IMHO.

That was a joke right?

They are not even close.



Lastly, I think you have serious problem with God. You must think God is not a very decent guy to have such a biased opinion of Him.

Well since he is a mythical being I dont have a problem with him.
But according to the bible he is a bit of a dick. Kills people, demands worship. I mean seriously what is up with an all powerful being, who created everything and then demands his creations worship him? Worse he doesnt even give any credible evidence that he exists, most of the world cant agree if he exist or in what form. Is the dude insecure or just petty??





I really do believe the West owes a LOT to the teaching of Jesus Christ. I don't understand why a lot of you just refuse to acknowledge that history.

It is just that... history. We have moved on, enlightenment etc.
Im happy to acknowledge it, but it is our past. As a society, Christianity is not our future. It is not the official religion and shouldnt hold any special place that puts it above other religions or no religion.

[Crazed_Insanity]

By 'Christian', I'm mainly focusing on Jesus. Jesus summarized all of Old Testament laws into just 2 laws. Love God and Love each other. You OTOH tend to focus on the Old Testament stuffs and ignoring what Jesus is all about. Old Testament stuffs are Judiasm. Judiasm and Christianity are related but not quite exactly the same...

Yes, there are dickhead killjoy Christians obsessing over OT laws and perhaps even believe in killing infidels rather than spreading the 'good news', but they are obviously missing the whole point of why Jesus came 2020 years ago... they are living as if Jesus the Savior has never arrived! They should just consider themselves as Jews, rather than Christians. :p

I think you're just too analytical. God is just like love. Yeah, love can be pretty crazy sometimes. Some lovers can be dicks. Some lovers may have weird demands. Some lovers could even murder people! Love can truly be crazy and we can't really prove love either... yet, people continue to be crazy enough to fall in love? Why?

Love is in our past... because love is so crazy, we must not allow love in our future?

Anyway, I do agree having christianity or any religion as an official religion is dangerous. We've played that once with the Catholic church. We've learned that absolute power corrupted us absolutely... so people really should be allowed to worship or not worship however they want. As much as I love Christ, I don't need Jesus to become an official religion and I don't believe that's a good idea. Jesus doesn't need to be an official, it'd be better to have him as a personal friend!

Obviously you believe Christianity has done great damage to the West. Perhaps Europeans could've dominated the world even more without Jesus... it was Jesus who was holding them back?

Anyway, you're entitled to your belief. I'm entitled to mine! :p

Obviously I place Christianity above all other religions/non-religion. You may place atheism above all other religion.

However each person live their lives will depend on what each one of them choose to 'believe'. We just need to choose wisely! :)

[JoshInKC]

Without Martin Luther 'protesting', perhaps Christianity could've died out thanks to Catholic church...
That's a pretty weird premise when today there are more catholics in the world than protestants

[Crazed_Insanity]

Numbers are definitely important, but can’t be the only metric we use to measure things, right? Also, I don’t have anything against my catholic bro’s and sis’s...

Catholic Church is essentially founder of Christianity. Prior to my conversion, I was considering to just go with the original church and become catholic!

However, my observation has been that catholic nations don’t seem to be as well off as Protestant nations. Just take all the new nations in the new world for example... let’s might as well include Australia and NZ, I personally thought Christians directly following Jesus Christ tend to do better than Christians following a human Pope.

So I decided to just follow Jesus directly.

[G'day Mate]

I don’t see belief and faith as synonymous. All my strongly held beliefs are based on evidence. If you believe in something without evidence (or in spite of evidence to the contrary), that’s faith. I wouldn’t create laws that couldn’t be backed up with sound reasoning and evidence.

[Crazed_Insanity]

My opinion is that all sound ‘faiths’ ought to be able to be proven in time.

Einstein couldn’t prove relativity, but in time, we’re able to prove him right.

If Jesus never ever returns, then we can safely conclude that Jesus is indeed bogus.

Prior to having solid evidences, we can only choose to go by belief or faith.

At this point in time, we no longer have to believe Einstein was right. We know.

[Dicknose]

My opinion is that all sound ‘faiths’ ought to be able to be proven in time.

If Jesus never ever returns, then we can safely conclude that Jesus is indeed bogus.


And that is the cool thing about all these faith based religions - they cant be disproved!!
Without putting a time limit on things you could just be waiting forever.

But if god was real and is all powerful he could something convincing at any point.
No - not a sunrise or a cute puppy. Or only talk to some special individual.
Just boom out "hey everyone, god here, maybe get your act together before I smite some more"

But hey - this mystery guy needs us to believe without proof. Like Santa! If you just believe enough it will be true. Oh and your nation will do well compared to others.
Hmm - the US is more Christian than NZ or Australia and is suffering much more under covid, therefore christianity is not true!!

[Crazed_Insanity]

If Jesus said it’ll take forever for him to return, then you might have a point. But it’s only been 2020 years! On a cosmic scale, it’s like nothing! Be patient! :p

Look, supposedly Jesus performed some miracles, and did that really convinced the Jews and caused them to accept him? Actually, they crucified him instead! So trust me, it’s cool when magicians perform miraculous deeds, but as soon as you claim to be God, people will tend to want you dead.

So you really think Jesus screwed up the 1st time around and should try to come and do better miracles to convince us?

With regard to Covid, not really sure what’s going on. All I see is that we are have more and more pressures to cause nations all over the world to become more and more nationalistic for some reason... not really sure where we’re heading...

But pestilence, natural disasters, wars... supposedly these are signs that Jesus is coming soon. Perhaps our simulation is about to come to an end.

[Tom Servo]

Einstein couldn’t prove relativity, but in time, we’re able to prove him right.

I've seen you mention things like this and I feel like you have a fundamental misunderstanding of science. Science is an attempt to understand the universe. It's the idea of having the best answer that we know of at this moment, but as soon as the model doesn't fit, then it doesn't fit. There's no attempt to make it fit.

I think it goes back to some of the criticisms you've had of the WHO and people like Fauci about the Covid pandemic. Some of the initial guidance was wrong, but it was the best people knew at the time. As you learn more, you change that guidance. That doesn't mean that you can't trust these people. There may be other reasons not to trust the WHO, but changing guidance in a pandemic that is still not even a year old as we learn more about it doesn't mean that the science isn't trustworthy, it means the exact opposite.

Faith requires an adherence to the unprovable. That's all well and good, I have faith that the Chargers will win the Super Bowl one day. Science relies on making statements that can be proven false and then testing them. When they fail the test, that's it. In the meantime, we make the best decisions we can based on what we do know.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I’m not against science. I think people tend to have this false dichotomy between faith and science. Pro life and pro choice. Jesus cant be both god and man...

Look, I don’t trust CDC and WHO not because I hate science but because leadership at those organizations had been corrupted politically! They’re no longer pursuing science but decided to please Trump and Xi over science.

Bible is also not a science book and never claimed to be one. Only people like DN demand it be scientific or reasonable... but who are we to make such demands?

Bible is a book of HisStory. The only theory you can find in it is that God the Father demands His people to act justly, love mercy, and to humbly follow Him, and Jesus His Son came 2020 years ago to testify for his Fathers existence and to bring salvation to all who want it.

In due time, we will be able to find out if this is for real or not.

If Jesus is really true, over time, scientists should eventually be able discover this truth. If not true, surely scientists will be able to prove Him false.

Now, the only way we can test God according to bible is that we give a 10% of our earnings and see if He will bless you with more in return! Now, you don’t have to give to church if you don’t want to. Just give away to the poor or what ever charities you want. Have you tried such a test and God failed you?

[Crazed_Insanity]

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/do-we-live-in-a-simulation-chances-are-about-50-50/

Have you guys seen this fascinating article claiming that perhaps there’s a 50/50 chance that we’re living in a simulation?

If someday we were to become smart enough to create such elaborate simulations ourselves, we actually further increases the odds that we are in a simulation...

Anyway, if there’s a slightest possibility that this real world could have a Creator... and if our world is simulated, there’s 100% chance that we have a creator... so chances are slightly higher than we were created by a creator whether we’re simulation or not! :p

But even if there is Creator, if I were to find out that He is an asshole, I’d stop following Him.

For now, I believe He’s good and I’m the asshole...

[G'day Mate]

Well let’s see then. What would it take for you to agree or be convinced that a capital c Creator was an arsehole?

[Yw-slayer]

Why are you guys even wasting your time with this brainwashed moron? lol man

[Crazed_Insanity]

Well let’s see then. What would it take for you to agree or be convinced that a capital c Creator was an arsehole?

Can we focus in on Jesus 1st?

Why do you think he is an asshole?

[Crazed_Insanity]

Why are you guys even wasting your time with this brainwashed moron? lol man

Speaking of brainwashed, you seemed to think Trump is an asshole, but how about Xi?

I hope you realize they’re both assholes.

[Tom Servo]

I definitely don't think you're against science, but I also think that it doesn't make sense to compare faith in the bible with continuing to use the theory of relativity to describe the universe as long as it appears to be correct. I don't think you're against it, I just think you don't understand it as you seem to think that it's a system of beliefs and faith much like religion when it is very, very different.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Anyway, I simply used that example because it’s a famous example where we had an impossible to prove theory at 1st, but as tech advanced, we finally were able to prove it without any doubt. So there’s a period of time when we’re introduced to something that seemed so out of this world and there’s nothing the scientists could do besides to either choose to believe or think that Einstein is crazy.

With theology, yeah, it’ll most likely take a while to prove it without any doubt. At least with Christianity, once we can know for sure, the ‘simulation’ will probably end for us whether we meet him in heaven or meet him as he returns to earth...

I’m also ready for the possibility to just go poof after I die. I’m not 100% certain that Jesus exists too. Faith does mean that I’m not 100% sure, but choose to believe anyway.

I still think there is a possibility that if given enough time, scientists will be able to figure out all of our universe’s mysteries including its creator, or not.

Scientists do not have the final words yet.

Given that I cannot be 100% sure either way but I am 100% sure that I’m more of an asshole than Jesus, so I chose to believe and follow him. If I could truly faithfully follow him as described in the Bible, I’m sure he won’t steer me wrong. Of course I often fail, but still gotta try and try again! :p

Of course you guys are free to follow whoever role models you want. Not trying to shove role models down your throats.

Back to G’day’s post again, I just thought Europeans, the West, had a great role model for 2020 years. It’s just unfortunate that I think most of you probably had some bad Christian role models which prevented you guys from actually seeing who Christ really is... :( May God put more Christ-like role models your way...

[G'day Mate]

Why are you guys even wasting your time with this brainwashed moron? lol man

There’s so much worse out there - Billi ain’t so bad

[G'day Mate]

Can we focus in on Jesus 1st?

Why do you think he is an asshole?

Nope, I want to know where your line for holy arseholeishness is. What would God have to do?

[Crazed_Insanity]

God is invisible dude! I can’t see Him so how can I see what He’s doing! :p

Okay seriously, if God cannot keep His promises, then He obviously can’t be worthy of our worship.

God promised Abraham, who had no sons at the time, that he will be the father of multiple nations! That promise had come to pass, he indeed has became spiritual father of many Jewish, Christian and Islamic nations today!

Also, if Hitler or anyone else could successfully wipe out all Jews, God’s chosen people, then it’d be obvious that this God is not very potent...

Actually, if I live in a matrix that good cannot ultimately triumph over evil, then I’d have a serious problem with that architect.

I know a lot of you tend to think the OT God was too mean due to various genocides recorded in the Bible... but are you guys seriously feeling sorry for Sodomites? Also, it was a dog eat dog world back then. If it wasn’t them dying, it’d be the Israelites dying..., God wasn’t going to break His promises to the Jews... and the pathetic little Jews needed to survive otherwise the world won’t have a bible no more!

I tend to think of it this way... each person is like a cell and bible is our DNA. Those who don’t live by following the DNA faithfully are basically ‘cancerous’ cells. Detrimental to normal healthy development. These cancerous cells could only be cut off or killed off. But after what Christ have done on the cross, we now have a new treatment! We could reverse cancerous cell and don’t need to cut those tumors off anymore!

Relative to cancer cells, surely an oncologist seem like a very mean asshole, but is he really?

I just like to see an entire organization restored to healthy development that’s all. I really thought God had done a pretty good job on the West. I really wish gospel had spread eastward to China first... :p

Anyway, Jews didn’t want it, so it went to Europe, Europe didn’t want it so it kept going to America, if Americans don’t want it, hope my dream will come true.

[Yw-slayer]

There’s so much worse out there - Billi ain’t so bad

Yeah, but it's still a total waste of your time and energy. Just let him sit and fester in his own steaming bubble of crap.

[Tom Servo]

I, for some reason, have this feeling like there's always this possibility of a breakthrough. Lord knows Billi has made complete about-faces in his overall life philosophy, so another isn't out of the question. I've made a habit that if I try to point out an inconsistency and he just doubles down on the same inconsistency rather than acknowledge it, that's when I just stop. I feel like it's a nice balance. He's either here to listen or to pontificate, and you can figure out which more quickly than I originally realized.

[Crazed_Insanity]

G’day wish to discuss something. When we’re done, we will be done. Why are you here wasting your time YW?

You have something to say on topic, say it. If not, why are you wasting bandwidth in this crappy thread? Don’t you have better things to do? It’s really stinky in here! Are you sure you want to keep coming in?

Deep down, you find poop irresistible, huh? Just like that fly on Pence’s head? ;)

[Yw-slayer]

I, for some reason, have this feeling like there's always this possibility of a breakthrough. Lord knows Billi has made complete about-faces in his overall life philosophy, so another isn't out of the question. I've made a habit that if I try to point out an inconsistency and he just doubles down on the same inconsistency rather than acknowledge it, that's when I just stop. I feel like it's a nice balance. He's either here to listen or to pontificate, and you can figure out which more quickly than I originally realized.

Well, I guess it's your life, time, and energy. Admittedly he's not roofer.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Roofer has a different ‘belief’ such as he believes in no masks, but I still waste time pontificating about the advantages of masks because I see him as a friend. He’s not very happy about that but at least he also hasn’t unfriend me yet.

Our time is indeed limited. Choose to use it wisely.

[G'day Mate]

Okay seriously, if God cannot keep His promises, then He obviously can’t be worthy of our worship.

Do any of these count as broken promises, or would you just say they're not yet fulfilled: https://www.patheos.com/blogs/daylightatheism/2008/06/the-bibles-broken-promises/

[Dicknose]

Bible is also not a science book and never claimed to be one. Only people like DN demand it be scientific or reasonable...

I just expect that if it is the word of the all knowing being who created the universe, that it would give a bit more insight into that.
The creation story looks like it was the word of goat herders.


Bible is a book of HisStory.
Possibly. Its also possible that its mostly a work of fiction. how did we get the baby jesus stories, but then he wasnt heard of for many years.
and most of the written works about him are from much later by unknown people who didnt meet him.




In due time, we will be able to find out if this is for real or not.

If Jesus is really true, over time, scientists should eventually be able discover this truth. If not true, surely scientists will be able to prove Him false.

It would be almost impossible to prove it false, unless another god comes out and says so.
If there is no gods then this myth could go on forever.

What would convince you that god doesnt exist??

[Dicknose]

Anyway, I simply used that example because it’s a famous example where we had an impossible to prove theory at 1st, but as tech advanced, we finally were able to prove it without any doubt.
We havent proved relativity.
We cant prove relativity.

Both special relativity and general relativity were hard to test and so far all important tests have passed. But none of this "proved" them.

Actually we have proved that general relativity it is wrong - it cant reconcile with quantum theory. Both seem great in their areas, but cant combine. So both are actually wrong in terms of describing the complete universe. A better theory will fix this. But in many ways general relativity will still be "correct" in the same way that we still teach and use Newtonian gravity even though it has been disproved.

Again you show that you dont understand how science works.

And this style of science work (cant prove, only test and pass, or disprove) is not that applicable to an untestable faith based system. That could easily be proved (but hasnt been - because god refuses for his own sneaky reasons), but almost impossible to disprove without something miraculous. Heck aliens could turn up, welcome us to a collective of 1000s of other intelligent beings and tell us god doesnt exist and people would still justify the existence of a god.
its virtually impossible to prove the nonexistence of something. Especially if that thing has ultimate power and almost anything can be explained by "they made it that way"

[Crazed_Insanity]

Do any of these count as broken promises, or would you just say they're not yet fulfilled: https://www.patheos.com/blogs/daylightatheism/2008/06/the-bibles-broken-promises/

Author is just way too negative and impatient IMHO. 1st of all, prophecy regarding the destruction of certain group of people..., what if God is merciful enough to change His mind? That's not good? If He said you're dead, you must die? Doesn't matter if you repent? Because God has to hold His promise to kill you? He can't change His mind? :p

Also One can call Tyre a city of ruins, built out of ruins. Egyptian Pharaohs were also long gone...

With regarding to Israel's territory or Christ's return... are you absolutely certain that Israel's territory won't ever change? Are you already sure after 2020 year, Jesus ain't never going to come back? How can you be so sure? Just a few decades ago, Israel didn't even have any land... Also the Jews waited for thousands of years for their messiah to come... of course some still don't believe Jesus is their messiah...

Anyway, did you noticed that the promises I pointed out gave the person or group in question more hope for their future? I didn't really dwell on the negative stuffs. Whereas that particular author is just trampling on hope and accusing God a broken promise keeper for failing to destroy people as promised...

Look, if a tumor isn't really cancerous, maybe we don't have to cut it off?

Can we focus on some of the more positive promises that God failed to deliver... also, Bible is clear that no one knows when Jesus will return, we can't include that as God's failure. Likewise the territory of Israel..., that changes over time so many times. That all depends on Israelites' faith in God. I think they peaked during King David/Solomon and then it's been down hill ever since..., but who knows? My yardstick is that Jews will always survive... and if you ever try to kick their asses, rest assure God will kick your ass back for them much harder. It happened to the Egyptians in the bible and it happened to the Nazi's in modern history.

If Jews were all dead and if there are no more Christians left, then it'd be clear to me that bible is fake. :p

[Crazed_Insanity]

I just expect that if it is the word of the all knowing being who created the universe, that it would give a bit more insight into that.
The creation story looks like it was the word of goat herders.
Like I've pointed out to you that due to the expansion of the space time, it is mathematically possible to prove that our universe may indeed just be 6 day-ish old if it were a static and non-expanding universe. Creation sequence also match evolutionary sequence pretty well. For a goat herder, I thought Moses did a pretty good job. Bible's focus wasn't to explain to you in detail about the creation story, but stories of relationships between God and men.



Possibly. Its also possible that its mostly a work of fiction. how did we get the baby jesus stories, but then he wasnt heard of for many years.
and most of the written works about him are from much later by unknown people who didnt meet him.
There are definitely parts of the Jesus story that bible was silent on... like what happened to his human dad Joseph? Sounds like he disappeared from the story. I don't know why that is, but apparently that wasn't critical enough to the overall scheme of things.

But think of it this way... if you were a professor given a textbook 2000 years ago... will you be able to give new lectures again and again every sunday for 2000 years? That's the wisdom of this living book. You could have new revelations in this old book. Fact or fiction? all depends on your faith.




It would be almost impossible to prove it false, unless another god comes out and says so.
If there is no gods then this myth could go on forever.

What would convince you that god doesnt exist??

I've already stated that in my response to g'day.

Look. A theology could certainly die or fall into irrelevancy like Europeans previous religions. Had the gospel spread eastward, surely Hinduism and buddhism might become less relevant too? This is the case of one God showing up telling people that what they believe was fake...

Now, how does atheism prove itself?

It's not impossible.

I do believe science will eventually give us the final word as scientists learn more and more about the universe. Given enough time, scientists will either discover a Creator... or not.

It's just that it's not that time yet and you guys are drawing conclusions too early. Now, I'm not saying that I must be right, I could definitely be wrong. Just saying I choose to believe Bible's not lying to me. We could coexist believing totally different things. Jesus isn't not telling me to kill you guys. Don't worry! :p

[Crazed_Insanity]

We havent proved relativity.
We cant prove relativity.

Both special relativity and general relativity were hard to test and so far all important tests have passed. But none of this "proved" them.

Actually we have proved that general relativity it is wrong - it cant reconcile with quantum theory. Both seem great in their areas, but cant combine. So both are actually wrong in terms of describing the complete universe. A better theory will fix this. But in many ways general relativity will still be "correct" in the same way that we still teach and use Newtonian gravity even though it has been disproved.

Again you show that you dont understand how science works.

And this style of science work (cant prove, only test and pass, or disprove) is not that applicable to an untestable faith based system. That could easily be proved (but hasnt been - because god refuses for his own sneaky reasons), but almost impossible to disprove without something miraculous. Heck aliens could turn up, welcome us to a collective of 1000s of other intelligent beings and tell us god doesnt exist and people would still justify the existence of a god.
its virtually impossible to prove the nonexistence of something. Especially if that thing has ultimate power and almost anything can be explained by "they made it that way"

You are stuck in the details with the devil again... IMHO, God is this undiscovered theory that's not 'wrong'.

Are you really trying to tell me relativity is unproven? Yes, it's not universally applicable, but passing all the tests so far isn't proving?

If we can't even prove theory of relativity, how do you expect to prove God? Also, God doesn't want us to test Him. Just believe! :p

Actually as I was telling swervo, there is one way we're allowed to test God, which is to give away at least 10% of our income to help the needy and see if God will bless us with more!

Anyway, fine, I don't understand how science work, but I hope you understand that I wasn't using relativity to prove God, but only as an illustration that before we could even 'test' anything, Einstein sounded wacky and unbelievable! Before we're able to test it out, what are other scientists to do when they see such revolutionary theory?

[G'day Mate]

So yeah, you’re saying that gods just taking his time, so we can’t really go anywhere with that.


If Jews were all dead and if there are no more Christians left, then it'd be clear to me that bible is fake. :p

No you wouldn’t because you wouldn’t be here :p

[Crazed_Insanity]

If I were the last Christian standing, and if I see that the next Hitler has successfully slaughtered all Jews and God didn’t do anything about that..., then I’ll most likely give up believing.

However, knowing that Jews didn’t have to lift a finger to destroy the mighty Egyptian and Nazi armies and then able to get their own land again and again... not to mention the Christian influences Europeans had... makes it hard for me to not believe. :p Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. I may be too dumb to understand science, but perhaps I’m a bit wiser? ;)

God is love. Love is patient and kind... so God is indeed very patient and has all the time in the universe to wait... in order to maximize the number of souls saved. :)

Salvation is free for all. You don’t have to accept it if you don’t want it. God is prochoice! But of course it’d be better if we all could have eternal life as well...

Even if future eternal life is BS, Christianity still had a positive effect on the West in the here and now... so I believe it worth it to place a wager as pascal did. Of course, you are free to wager on whatever you want. Not twisting any arms here.

[Dicknose]

Like I've pointed out to you that due to the expansion of the space time, it is mathematically possible to prove that our universe may indeed just be 6 day-ish old if it were a static and non-expanding universe. Creation sequence also match evolutionary sequence pretty well. For a goat herder, I thought Moses did a pretty good job. Bible's focus wasn't to explain to you in detail about the creation story, but stories of relationships between God and men.

No it doesnt match the expansion - as Ive pointed out you could pick the numbers to match any number of days.
And the creation sequence is soooo far from what happened. Earth first? Evolution doesnt match that - you know grass and fruit is relatively new, say compared to dinosaurs. Hmm and day 4 was sun and moon - after the earth and grass!
And its widely considered a knock off of an earlier Mesopotamian creation story.
Nothing particularly enlightening about it. Certainly nothing that would make any predictions that have matched what science has discovered.
Plenty of poor efforts at retrofitting it to current science.



Now, how does atheism prove itself?

It's not impossible.

I think it is impossible - how do you prove a god doesnt exist.
What I think is that atheism "validates" itself by showing you dont need a god to - be a decent person or discover important things or basically improve the world.




I do believe science will eventually give us the final word as scientists learn more and more about the universe. Given enough time, scientists will either discover a Creator... or not.

But there is nothing you can do to discover a god if he doesnt want to be found. So no amount of searching will disprove him.
And the god could just reveal themselves whenever they want.
How do you go about finding a god who is outside the universe?

Hmm it seems amazingly convenient that god hides and only shows in the most obscure ways, small miracles that could be confused for random luck. Or maybe in big ways, like making nations stronger than others!

[Dicknose]

Are you really trying to tell me relativity is unproven? Yes, it's not universally applicable, but passing all the tests so far isn't proving?


You still dont understand science!
You cant "prove" science because at anytime something can contradict and disprove it.



If we can't even prove theory of relativity, how do you expect to prove God? Also, God doesn't want us to test Him. Just believe! :p

And you dont think its convenient that god is untestable?
If it was testable then it would have failed and would have fallen like most other religions.



Actually as I was telling swervo, there is one way we're allowed to test God, which is to give away at least 10% of our income to help the needy and see if God will bless us with more!

Pretty sure you could show that has failed. Well except for those who died poor and got the unprovable gift of an afterlife.
Again its setup as untestable.



Anyway, fine, I don't understand how science work, but I hope you understand that I wasn't using relativity to prove God, but only as an illustration that before we could even 'test' anything, Einstein sounded wacky and unbelievable! Before we're able to test it out, what are other scientists to do when they see such revolutionary theory?
Yes... ok.

But dont you see that religion is the opposite. Its fundamentally untestable.
Id argue that is an important feature of any religion, especially ones that rely on false premises such as a deity.

Science is designed to be "test it - show me Im wrong"
Religion is designed to be "believe with faith as it cant be tested"

If religion could be tested wouldnt we have some convincing evidence by now? And wouldnt there be a single religion? How did god mess up so badly that we have dozens of religions?

[Crazed_Insanity]

Anyway, with regard to ‘testing’, it goes back to my original point that g’day focused on...

People in the West, were there more Christians or more atheists?

If the West developed itself this way as bunch of atheists, then you have a point. However the West was predominantly Christian, even the founding fathers of modern science were Christians...

So I thought the test results are pretty clear that as a religion, it worked out pretty well for the West.

Isn’t it obvious that the West has been more blessed than people in Africa, Middle East, and Asia?

Even if Jesus is BS, Christian influence wasn’t all that bad for the West, right?

Can God really provide sufficient convincing evidence? There were people in the gospel stories who’ve seen Jesus but refused to believe.

If Jesus show up to your face, will you really believe?

[Tom Servo]

Right off the bat, correlation does not equal causation. I'm not entirely sure what metric you're using to measure "working out pretty well", but plenty of predominantly Christian nations find themselves in very different socio-economic situations. Being predominantly Christian doesn't automatically mean "more blessed." It also ignores not-predominantly Christian countries that have also done quite well - I know you're not a fan of the CCP, but the CCP is less than 100 years old and China's done very well for itself over the centuries.

The only thing I think you can get from your test is that having a predominantly Christian population isn't necessarily ruinous to a country. You'd have to be able to repeat the experiment (multiple times) with a predominantly atheist country (or other religion or a mix of religions where none is the dominant one) and compare the results to make the call that one is better than the other, which obviously isn't possible.

This again loops back to that fundamental misunderstanding about science. You have a conclusion you want to reach and are picking and choosing the things that get you to that conclusion. You're ignoring the centuries of plague, war, and famine that the "west" has gone through despite widespread Christianity. You're excluding non-Christian civilizations that have thrived in the past or are thriving now.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I think it should be apparent that dictatorships can always be bad for us. The only possible way for dictatorships to work out is if we have the perfect dictator or king like Jesus. Any other humans, sooner or later, corruption will get to him or his sons and then he'll destroy everything.

Also, you can't just judge how somebody like Enron is doing so well in such a short period of time. :p

I am rooting for China to do well, but are you really going to praise China for having a dictator in charge? For the awesome work they did with WHO to fight and contain this virus?

The only thing I like about the Chinese commies is that it has completely destroyed China's various religions during cultural revolution... and perhaps that will help pave the way for the Gospel. However the CCP has totally ruined traditional Chinese culture. People of Taiwan has probably preserved a more authentic chinese culture...

Anyway, I understand correlation is not causation. However, we do have a long long time to make our judgment with regard to the development of the West.

Islamic worlds had done very well for a while actually... but their dictatorial theocracy ended up killing their development. I also don't believe Hinduism had helped India much. Its caste system most likely hindered India's development on a social economic level...

Whereas Christianity, at least protestant christianity, isn't about what organized religion telling you what to do. You are encouraged to read the bible and do what Jesus would do... not to be told to worship and pray at a specific time or specific place or specific positions... Christianity also encourages individualism. Jesus is not into any class systems and would want to help us break free from all chains. Yeah, some christians might use the bible to argue FOR slavery, but it should be clear from the exodus story to the gospel story that God wants to set ALL people free!

It's these fundamental ideas that helped a culture flourish. Christianity's faith didn't ruin science, but it helped created science. The way of living in the West has been copied 1st by the Japanese and now by the Chinese. I'm okay with Japan, but I'm sorry, I'm not okay as long as there's a dictator in charge. CCP has been going backwards politically IMHO. Primarily because they know they have more market power to dictate the rest of the world around. People enjoy making money in China, but rest assured that most rich people in China don't really plan on staying there longterm.

The day Dalai Lama feels safe to return is the day China can be returned to normalcy. Otherwise, any group of folks could run the risk of being locked up in a concentration camp. Ideally, I'd like to see Jesus moving in and then China will truly be transformed.

Lastly, if you live in the time when Einstein 1st introduced relativity and the theory was untestable at the time. What would you guys as a persons who fully understand how science work do?

Personally, I'd have reservations because why should I doubt Newton when Einstein's new theory couldn't be tested, right? However, distortion of space time is something that's not going to change whether I believe Einstein or not. Truth shall remain true. That was the point I was trying to make. How many times to you guys need to attack me about my lack of understanding of science?

Well..., you guys lack understanding of Jesus! :p

[JoshInKC]

It's really easy to support your theory of "The west is successful because jesus, and other areas aren't successful because not jesus" when you don't know anything about history.

[Crazed_Insanity]

That is true. I have to admit I have even less understanding about history than science!

But the correlation is clearly there!

Japan and China copied the west or specifically America as much as they could, but copying following Jesus won’t be easy for the governments to implement...

If the atheistic Chinese could really continue to develop well for few hundred years, than maybe DN is closer to the real truth.

However I tend to believe people’s faith lays the foundation for them to properly develop and grow on. Japan and China’s longterm success without Christianity will render this correlation of mine in doubt... BTW, by success, I meant they'll have to be able to shed their copycat label and truly lead the world with their own developments that change the world... hopefully for good of course...

[Yw-slayer]

It's really easy to support your theory of "The west is successful because jesus, and other areas aren't successful because not jesus" when you don't know anything about history.

Not only that, but these sound like the same moronic arguments I've heard from crazy brainwashed people who will openly use the words "heathen" and "blasphemy" when referring to other religions at social gatherings.

[Crazed_Insanity]

A HA! Caught you un-ignoring me? ;)

You know you can talk to me directly?

Or perhaps we Christians are just not worth your time?

Anyway, my prayers to God is still to free not only HK but also China! Of course I don’t really want Trump to free China, I want Jesus.

At the moment, both of those superpowers are pretty pathetic.

Is America really being very Christian at the moment? At least not at the top level... not sure Christ would grab pussies or lock up babies. But at least I believe there’s more hope living in America than China.

[Tom Servo]

A nice little story about the Norwegian Seamen's Church down in San Pedro. My father would stay there when he was in the Merchant Marines and they were in port, and when covid is over I highly recommend going there and having the cardamom waffles they make on Sunday mornings.

https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2020-12-13/san-pedro-church-honors-saint-who-brings-light-to-darkness

[Crazed_Insanity]

Wow, what a cool church... I’ll definitely pay it a visit when Covid is taken care of...

When the pandemic is over, you want to get together and have some waffles there? And maybe get you baptized? ;)

[Tom Servo]

I think I actually am baptized. Pretty sure my mom said I was when I was a kid. Always down for waffles though.

[Crazed_Insanity]

No, need to be an adult and be willing to follow Jesus on your own free will to count, not by coercion or by seduction by waffles. :p

[Dicknose]

I like waffles
And also was baptised as a kid

[Crazed_Insanity]

Good. See you in LA when Covid is over. We’ll have some waffles after both of your real grown up baptisms! ;)

[Crazed_Insanity]

Today’s Sunday online service, pastor used the story in acts 27-28 to encourage us...

In short, it’s the story of apostle Paul being transported in a ship to go on a trial in Rome. However, the ship ran aground due to storm and Paul was also bit by a viper... but although the original plan was side tracked, God knows what he’s doing...

This story was shown to be very similar to our current situation. Surely most of our plans or friendships or relationships or perhaps political bipartisanship are all ran aground by this storm...

These external craps weren’t enough, viper’s venom could also try to poison us internally... with self doubts, loneliness, resentment ... we need to shake these things off just as Paul shook off that viper!

Anyway, as long as we hang on with hope, God is good and will be faithful with us... hey, we already made it thru 2020... whether 2021 be better or worse, good will eventually triumph!

Of course in Acts, Paul eventually dies, but heck, who doesn’t die? And because of Paul, people like me could also now experience the same kind of hope for a better future!

May God bless us all!

[G'day Mate]

I came across an interesting argument against those who claim their god is omniscient and omnipotent the other day. In the spirit of discussion I'm curious to see how it could be tackled. I imagine a devout monotheist would have to use free will to argue against it, but I would still say "perhaps, but couldn't he have done better?". Here's how it goes (in my words):

1. If a god is omnipotent, he is capable of doing some given thing
2. If a god is omniscient he will also know how to do the things he's capable of

Therefore, if an omnipotent, omniscient god decides to do something, it will happen.

So, if a god wanted to effectively communicate his message to us it would happen, yet there are several different monotheistic religions (whose devotees will often claim their god is omnipotent and omniscient) and those religions are further divided into countless sects with different doctrine based on different interpretations of what they believe to be their message from god.

What gives?

[Crazed_Insanity]

USA is a mononationalistic nation. We are not split into 50 different political groups, but mainly 2. Republicans and democrats.

Each of the two groups can also be split further, moderate Republican vs tea party trumpists. Similarly dems have a more progressive wing.

Each of these sub groups have a different versions or visions of America. So which america is the real America?

I guess founding fathers were just too stupid to communicate to American people properly what it really means to be Americans. Stupid dumb founding fathers. Clearly they didn’t know what the heck there were doing. How hard is it to just write stuff on a piece of paper so that people can clearly understand and not be confused?

So naturally we can safely conclude America doesn’t exist. Because if it really exists, Americans shouldn’t be this confused? Can’t possibly be the average Americans fault, right? Must be the dumb founding fathers who founded this nation ineffectively.

[G'day Mate]

So, I mentioned omniscience and omnipotence several times because they are fundamental to the argument. I've heard the term "foresight" used in reference to your founding fathers, but never "omniscience".

False equivalence or straw man? You choose.

[Crazed_Insanity]

But we’re talking about average Americans here. Do you really believe an all powerful being with the clearest message can be heard clearly by all Americans and nobody would get it wrong?

You are way over estimating average people not to mention under estimate the creator of this infinite universe.

With that said, although Americans can’t agree with each other, they are still Americans. Likewise, Jews, Christians and Muslims are all believers of God of Abraham. I do believe they are all children of God.

When we ourselves are imperfect and tend to misinterpret the message and tend to screw things up, does it really make sense to use our lame-ness to prove that the message isn’t clear enough or God is not omnipotent enough? Yeah, perhaps if God takes away our free will as you said earlier, then we could all just perform Gods perfect programming then naturally if there’s still a screw up, then yeah, it’ll be completely be God the programmer’s fault. Do you believe you are a preprogrammed robot unable to choose?

There’s no one like God, so it’ll be hard to find something equivalent. Jesus is not straw man, maybe a hangman on the cross? Anyway, yes, I choose Him.

[Dicknose]

Someone missed the point completely...

why isnt gods message clear - all powerful, it shouldnt be hard to give a clear message. Yes we are inperfect, but god should know that and allow for that. If god lets the message continue to be misunderstood then that is a choice. All powerful, all knowing - cant blame us for the mixup.
Or is it "we dont understand gods plan" as to why the message and even the existence of said god is so garbled. Is it meant to be confusing?

Personally I never understood why an all powerful god would want people to believe, worship etc. Seems very insecure.

[Crazed_Insanity]

The message has been preserved faithfully for thousands of years. We don't need Indiana Jones to dig it out and piece the word puzzle back together. Word of God has been faithfully preserve for all to read. Whether you want to read it or agree with it..., we have to free will to decide for ourselves. We also have the free will to interpret it however we want.

I find it funny that human tendency is to first blame the bible as confusing, but never bothered to look in the mirror... fine, if you're so smart, just look at an average american. Citizens of the greatest superpower of our current world. Aren't we confused? Are Americans confused by the Bible that's how we end up electing Trump?

Anyway, belief is important because without it, you might also be without hope… without hope, you just might get depressed…

Elon Musk 1st ‘believes’ that he could build a rocket, right? Without such belief at 1st, he’d be investing his money on something else and there’s be no SpaceX. Faith is the seed to lots of things!

Worship isn’t really about kissing God’s ass, but about being able to humble ourselves to do what’s right, rather than whatever our hearts desire. Not that all desires are wrong, Jesus desired to not die a horrible death in the cross. Ain’t nothing wrong with that. However he humbled himself to do what’s right and necessary in order to have a chance to save our sorry asses.

Anyway, you guys can continue to not believe or to blame God, but humanity’s sorry nature is pretty clear.

Average Americans clearly need a lot of help! If you guys think you’re doing just fine without Gods salvation, that’s cool too. You can still enjoy this life.

If you really want to go on and on, then you can’t do that without God.

[G'day Mate]

Billi - I was hoping for a better answer to be honest. Not exactly sure what, but I wasn't going after your personal beliefs. Perhaps you could begin by clarifying whether you believe god is omniscient and omnipotent and go from there?

DN - what flaws do you see in the argument?

[Tom Servo]

I know he'll get mad at me for chiming in, but I do want to say that comparing the word of God to the message of the founding fathers and, as such, subject to the same communication limitations as to seeing into the unforeseeable future, implies that God is dead and gone just like the founding fathers.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Swervo, can’t get mad at you when it comes to religious debates. It’s reasonable for you to want to criticize Jesus and Billi while unable to offer better alternatives. I can’t ask for too much… :p Things are different when it comes to other stuffs though. I do appreciate a lot of your travel and cooking tips and other constructive critical posts. I just wasn’t happy about the ones that criticized and scoffed at me at my expense while offering nothing interesting in return.

Anyway, There’s just no way I can prove to anyone Jesus is still alive, other than perhaps his spirit and the Bible we have… and church.

As for this nation, all we have left is our constitution and our government.

Even if we had some all knowing and all powerful founding fathers and just because they are dead now, we can still blame all the messes Americans have made so far on the founding fathers? That sounds perfectly fair and reasonable to you guys?

Imperfect founding fathers, then it’s reasonable for Americans to pick up their own responsibilities for the meses we made?

However, If God Himself founded america, then Trump is basically God’s fault? Americans can be totally irresponsible for anything? Whatever bad happens, it’s just God’s fault… and whatever good happens it’s because atheists are awesome?

What kind of logic are you guys using? I am the unreasonable guy?

[Crazed_Insanity]

Billi - I was hoping for a better answer to be honest. Not exactly sure what, but I wasn't going after your personal beliefs. Perhaps you could begin by clarifying whether you believe god is omniscient and omnipotent and go from there?

DN - what flaws do you see in the argument?

You only want to discuss religion with atheists?

Got it. I’ll try to keep Jesus out of the religious thread? Sound good?

God is love. Sorry that’s probably my personal belief too…

Can you clarify love? Can you debate or argue about love?

I’d like to see DN try! :D

All knowing and all powerful is just a lazy way for believers to not bother explaining I guess… don’t get tripped over it. Just as we don’t need to clarify exactly how big our universe is in order to enjoy looking at the stars, exploring it and living in it.

You can’t really clarify the universe only by discussions.

We need telescopes and rocket ships and sensitive sensors to test verify our discussion(hypothesis) in order to discover the truth in our universe.

As for Discovering God, how can we do that?

We need to take a leap of faith. Discussions alone won’t do much good. If taking a leap of faith is totally unreasonable step for you to take, I’d advise you to stop wasting time trying to find God. Because that’d be like Elon Musk talking about building rockets but never actually do it.

Seriously, which religion in the world requires no faith?

Anyway, if Billi is the problem and if you want him to stay out of the religious thread too, let me know. Maybe you atheists could come up with something reasonable about God. IMHO, God is already reasonable enough. It is us who are the unreasonable ones! :p

If you need me to explain, I pretty much have to refer to Bible and Jesus, I can't just make shit up. If you don’t want that, then I’ll just shut up.

Good luck finding the God you want.

[Yw-slayer]

Someone missed the point completely...

why isnt gods message clear - all powerful, it shouldnt be hard to give a clear message. Yes we are inperfect, but god should know that and allow for that. If god lets the message continue to be misunderstood then that is a choice. All powerful, all knowing - cant blame us for the mixup.
Or is it "we dont understand gods plan" as to why the message and even the existence of said god is so garbled. Is it meant to be confusing?

Personally I never understood why an all powerful god would want people to believe, worship etc. Seems very insecure.

Nah man. Remember, if things not supporting the thesis "IT'S A TEST FROM GOD/SIGN THAT YOU SHOULD CONVERT TO MY RELIGION AND BELIEVE IN MY GOD" but if things are going well/support the thesis then "IT'S GOD'S BLESSINGS/PLAN FOR YOU BECAUSE YOU ARE A BELIEVER!!!!"

I don't actually care if it makes people's lives better and/or their being objectively "better" people if they believe in whatever they want to. In fact, if a belief system had such a result in every case I would probably be in favour of everyone having such a belief system. What I object to is people foisting their personal beliefs on me, or claiming that my belief system (if any) is somehow less valid and theirs is superior using facile reasoning such as the above.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Believers, particularly Christians, tend to make the mistake of 'bragging' my belief is better than your belief and consequently end up offending others. Yes, that's not very nice. I have to agree.

However, every belief is different. Some could be the seed that help folks to live better lives, while others could end up tricking people into traps and become more miserable. Not all beliefs are equally good for us. It IS possible to objectively rank different beliefs, right?

Unbelievers also need to be humble enough to not get so offended by stupid christians bragging about their belief. Seriously, if your belief is so good, why are you that offended by that? If you are confident and know what you're doing, why would you be offended by some fool who doesn't know what he's talking about?

Yeah, I'm sure Elon Musk wasn't too happy to see Russians laughing at him and even some of his friends trying to talk him out of his belief that he can build his own rockets, but if your conviction is strong enough, you won't be too bothered by them... also, if your belief is based correctly on sound foundation, you should be able to have something to show for in the end in this world... not just in some after life. Where are those laughing russians now?

Of course Elon Musk probably shouldn't brag about his rockets now. It's just not very nice thing to do and it'll undoubtedly offend the russians, but who cares about russian feelings now? Let the space exploration begin!

[Dicknose]

Anyway, belief is important because without it, you might also be without hope… without hope, you just might get depressed…

Elon Musk 1st ‘believes’ that he could build a rocket, right? Without such belief at 1st, he’d be investing his money on something else and there’s be no SpaceX. Faith is the seed to lots of things!

Belief in a deity is a lot different that belief in yourself.
The status of the deity is not dependent on your belief, while your success does require you to believe.

Also you know what would give hope - knowing that the deity exists, that an afterlife exists etc.
Not this "oh you must believe" crap. Leave that to Santa.

But you know what does require belief... a non-existent deity. It only exists in as much as people believe.

[Dicknose]

God is love. Sorry that’s probably my personal belief too…

Can you clarify love? Can you debate or argue about love?

I’d like to see DN try! :D

I agree with you there.
I think "god is love" is probably the best description.
We have personified the thing that we feel is important and intangible. Throw in some other elements (forgiveness, social responsibility) and you have a great system for humans.

So I agree on god is love.
But that also means it only exists in us.



We need to take a leap of faith. Discussions alone won’t do much good. If taking a leap of faith is totally unreasonable step for you to take, I’d advise you to stop wasting time trying to find God. Because that’d be like Elon Musk talking about building rockets but never actually do it.

Seriously, which religion in the world requires no faith?

None of the deity based ones.
As said above, if the deity does not exist, then faith is a requirement.

The question is - why would a god let us be so confused? Multiple religions, that actually causing trouble, why wouldnt an all powerful god just come and clear it all up for us?

[Dicknose]

I don't actually care if it makes people's lives better and/or their being objectively "better" people if they believe in whatever they want to. In fact, if a belief system had such a result in every case I would probably be in favour of everyone having such a belief system. What I object to is people foisting their personal beliefs on me, or claiming that my belief system (if any) is somehow less valid and theirs is superior using facile reasoning such as the above.
Im not a fan of people pushing their religions as politics/law. If thats what your religion believes, then it should apply to those religious people.
If you want it to apply to everyone then you need arguments that dont fall back to "but god said so"

It does also worry me when people say "but without religion how can you have morals?"
Scares me to think what these people would be like if they stopped following their religion.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Belief in a deity is a lot different that belief in yourself.
The status of the deity is not dependent on your belief, while your success does require you to believe.

Also you know what would give hope - knowing that the deity exists, that an afterlife exists etc.
Not this "oh you must believe" crap. Leave that to Santa.

But you know what does require belief... a non-existent deity. It only exists in as much as people believe.
How do you know that for sure that God’s existence depends on existence of believers?

We don’t even know what dark matter nor dark energies are… they only exist in physicists conjecture based on known laws, we haven’t been able to prove it yet. If it does exist, it exists regardless of whether scientists can prove or detect it or not. If it doesn’t exist, then there’s more to learn…

Nobody can prove nor disprove the existence of a creator of this universe at this time. We’ll just have to choose to believe whether all that we see is here by accident or by design.

[Dicknose]

DN - what flaws do you see in the argument?
Well I think the flaw is in... god could allow this. Not sure why?
Maybe its a test? But why be so mean, with so many gods and religions over the course of human history, why not jump in and make it clear? If the test is to see who makes it to an afterlife, it seems a rigged test. Many never got exposed (those outside/prior to European influence), most end up with the religion of their parents. Why judge on our religion rather than our actions?

[Dicknose]

How do you know that for sure that God’s existence depends on existence of believers?


Im saying "If the god is not real"...
hard to say "physically exists" as it is outside the universe.

A real god would exist independent of belief.

But any non-existent deity only exists via belief. ie only exists as a meme.

There have been countless deities in human culture, its obvious that these are not all compatible and so most must not exist. Yes they were "real" for the believers. Many of the beliefs behind these deities require you only believe in them (or a related group).
These deities and their religions only existed because of belief.

[Crazed_Insanity]

There are countless mutations, but natural selection will cause only few Covid variants to stick around.

I think similarly with deities… as confused people end up creating their own variant gods, they can’t all survive the test of time.

Only a select few that are truly useful would stick around.

After thousands of years of mutation, we are only left with just a few legit world religions.

Even if we end up with just a single religion left, I suppose that still won’t prove there is really a God unless he shows his face.

If you guys truly believe faith in god is a disease, then yeah, inoculate yourselves with the atheistic vaccine. Show the rest of the world what it’s like to live your lives to the fullest as atheists… that you don’t really need God as a crutch. Faith in yourself is plenty good enough as demonstrated by Elon Musk…

Maybe the world will turn around. Who knows. Like I’ve said to Swervo, if you can really convince me with an alternative that’s better, naturally I will choose that! Why would I choose a lousy God if I can choose something better!

However, if Jesus really does exist, someday you will face him. I hope you’ll also choose the better alternative rather than insisting on perishing because Jesus is supposedly so mean and you find him offensive… or you just can’t possibly believe that face is really Christ’s… ;)

If the Christian Bible were true, God has supposedly already shown his face, but people chose to crucify him, let’s not make the same mistake twice.

[Tom Servo]

FWIW, I have no intention of convincing anybody an alternative is better. I know there's a very real possibility that I am not correct. I am thrilled for you that your faith improves your life. I'm in line with Dicknose in that I just don't want religion to be the basis for law and I don't want anybody trying to convince me of their alternative. That's not to say that things that are law can't also be in religion, it's just that a religion dictating it shouldn't be the sole reason. I'm fine with the golden rule being a basis for law, but I don't want us dictating whether kids should be circumcised based on which testament you're into.

My personal belief is that if there is a god, I'd hope that he/she/them/it would be happy that I tried to use my given brain to figure out what made sense, and that I lived my life in a way that made everybody except Billi happier (sorry, Billi, that's just the way the dice fell). If there is a god and that isn't their priority, then I still wouldn't want to worship 'em anyway.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Ha, made me chuckled near the end there Swervo! Yes I was upset, but setting an annoying punk like me straight definitely should NOT result in you landing in hell! Maybe God would actually reward you for helping to set me straight! ;)

Anyway, criticizing my faults is totally understandable, but I really don’t understand your other position of not wanting to share your opinion of what’s better. Isn’t that the whole point of discussions?

You have a favorite way of cooking steak. There can be discussions of different methods of cooking, I can understand there’s no point bragging about your way, but please do share! Sure, I may not agree your way is better, but I just might end up adopting your way. Who knows until it’s out in the open and until I give it a try, right? Of course it’s also fine if it’s your secret recipe and not wanting to share. However, usually discussions involve exchange of ideas, right? Not just about criticizing my steak sucks?

Anyway, I also think you’re misunderstanding what following Christ is all about. We’re not asked to become lawyers of Gods laws and to strictly live according to those strict laws. That’s the Old Testament, Jewish way. I follow Jesus because he can take me to a whole new level! He offers me better alternatives in life, but of course I also have to choose to take it.

Anyway, I personally just think Bible is like the greatest self help book ever written, and you also have Jesus as your life coach… and all that is free of charge! Well, I suppose there will be some expenses…, you have to put in some effort, donate money to church and the needy, but point is God himself is not receiving any of my money. :p

If you think your life is just fine, the of course just continue on cooking your steak in your same favorite way and refuse to listen and try other recommendations.

However, if you think perhaps there are areas in your life that you are struggling with and don’t know how to… get rid of your stupid imposter syndrome for example. Perhaps it won’t kill you to give Jesus a chance?

[Tom Servo]

I often share my opinion, just not necessarily on the specific subject you're looking for. I don't have an opinion about what religion or lack thereof anybody should follow (well, except Scientology). I don't know if that comes from never having had one being raised atheist, but I just don't really have strong feelings about it. I have a relative who's a pastor, she finds it very fulfilling and enjoys it, I'm not about to start telling her she's wrong.

I do have a favorite way of cooking steak, but I would never tell you that you have to use my way. There are very famous chefs who undoubtedly cook better steaks than I do that do it a different way than I do. However, if you were to say that you don't rest your steaks after you're done, me pointing out that if you don't rest them it makes it really hard to tell if you cooked them well isn't me criticizing or telling you your steak sucks. Discussions are an exchange of ideas, but the ideas have to hold up to some level of scrutiny. If you have a favorite way of cooking a steak, that's great. If you say your favorite way of cooking a steak is based on this piece of information that's fundamentally flawed, like "I've found that every time I think about turtles while I'm cooking a steak, they come out better!" it's fine for me to point out that that might not be the thing that's dictating how good your steak is, and it doesn't mean I'm criticizing your steak.

(Just so we're 100% clear on this - I'm fine if you keep your kids home. I'm fine if you send them to school. Only you can make that call. I don't think it's a slam dunk decision, so I'm fine with them re-opening schools and would assume that sending your kids in would be on a voluntary basis rather than compulsory. I also think that the stat you shared should have no bearing on that decision, and said that not as a criticism but as part of the discussion. "Here's a reason why that probably shouldn't worry you.")

For what it's worth, I don't think I'm the one misunderstanding what following Christ is about. I think it's lawmakers who base laws on their religious beliefs and rant about Sharia law that are misunderstanding. It's lawmakers that think we should have the ten commandments posted in courtrooms, or that you should have to pray at school. Those are the people misunderstanding things.

I would definitely turn to a therapist about imposter syndrome before Jesus. To go back to the point about being raised atheist rather than giving up a religion - there's nothing about it that's compelling to me. I honestly think it would be almost impossible for me to actually believe, to have faith. I'd need some actual evidence at some point, otherwise it's no different from any other religion over the millennia. I think I could *pretend* to be religious pretty easily, but I wouldn't actually believe it.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Okay, regarding our earlier confrontation, thanks for explaining it in a way to help me better understand where you were coming from I guess.

I hope you are also beginning to understand that although I mentioned ‘turtles’, they really are not my main point. We don’t need to dwell on this fundamental flaw of mine so we can move on with the discussion? Or if you think the entire post is just stupid, then just criticize it and then let it drop? I want continual discussions, but not really discussion about turtles. If turtle really really bugs you, maybe next time I'll know to apologize for even mentioning it and so that we can just forget about it and move on or let the post drop… I’ll try to remember to do that next time. Ideally to not mention turtles in the 1st place! :p

Anyway, back to discussing faith…

I really don’t believe God is a God who absolutely refuse to leave us any evidence whatsoever. But since He thought faith is one important quality that He doesn't want us to lose, maybe that's why He rarely gives us direct evidences? Even when Jesus shows up on earth, there's still no direct evidence that seeing him is the same as seeing God... and people still just have to take his word for it, right? We could still assume he might just be a witch or magician illusionist for the cool tricks that he performed? We can always find reasons to doubt when it's up to Him to prove it. However, think about it, even for scientists... Scientists are the ones who actively seeks to find the truth. The universe doesn't just reveal evidences to scientists. I supposed universe could do that, but only interested scientists would respond to such revelation. Regular lame person maybe just thought that magic mushroom was cool trip and then totally forget what was revealed by mr universe…

Point is we need to seek or take initiative I guess. After you made that leap of faith… and you didn’t fall? That would be the evidence God gives you. If there’s no God or you took a leap of faith on a false God, then likely you’ll just fall…

I really do believe the entire human race is equally lousy. If a religion has been really helpful over the years, if their God is really answering prayers and saving them… there must be something to show for right?

If all nations around the world are equally lousy, then yeah, I’ll probably remain more secular as a Buddhist. However, after I’ve taken a few leaps with Jesus, I also need evidence of something better in order to abandon him! ;)

Christians can almost be universally agreed upon that they’re just a bunch of dumb judgemental sinful asshole…, but how can you explain the achievements of Christian nations? Thank goodness for atheists in Christian nations to carry the weight to move these lame nations forward?

Also them Jews… why in the world are they always at the center of the worlds attention? Always fighting or being killed by different people… and they’re always the last one standing.

Anyway, Jesus certainly doesn’t want hypocritical believers pretending to be believers. If you can’t believe, you just can’t believe. I totally understand. I think my hatred for Christians and their religion peaked around the W admin…, so I totally understand how you feel, but something happened that changed me.

My prayer is for something happen to you too! ;) if you really don’t want it to happen, then stay strong and resist the power of the bright side! :p

[Tom Servo]

I get they weren't your main point, that's why I said my bit and then, when pressed, said that I don't have an answer for you. Conversation was over at that point.

How can you explain the achievements of Muslim nations, or Buddhist nations, or all the achievements of the Roman empire, or pagan nations? Sure, if you cherry-pick achievements of predominantly Christian nations but also ignore the failures of predominantly Christian nations, they do sound pretty good in comparison. Lots of civilizations have had great achievements and great failures throughout history. It also depends on your definition of achievements, some might consider the conquest of the new world by countries like Spain to be an achievement, but the "using genocide to do it" part doesn't seem so great.

Also, I'm not sure that you do totally understand me. I don't hate Christians. I don't hate Christianity. I also am 100% not interested in reasons why I should take a leap of faith.

I realize you probably don't think you're pushing religion right now, but to me you are, which was one of the two things that I don't like about religion. Again - very happy for you that your faith fulfills you and improves your life. I hope it does so for the rest of your days. I hope that you take this in the way it's intended - I'm not criticizing you, I'm helping you out by saying "you are wasting your time."

[Dicknose]

There are countless mutations, but natural selection will cause only few Covid variants to stick around.
I think similarly with deities… as confused people end up creating their own variant gods, they can’t all survive the test of time.
Only a select few that are truly useful would stick around.
After thousands of years of mutation, we are only left with just a few legit world religions.
Even if we end up with just a single religion left, I suppose that still won’t prove there is really a God unless he shows his face.

That actually seems to be an argument in favour of god(s) being a human creation.
But a religion being successful or long lasting is in now way proof of its deity or supernatural claims.

Since deities seem reluctant to actually communicate with us in direct and obvious ways, its actually possible that an extinct religion could be correct and their deity has just given up. So I dont think we can even rule out defunct religion as an option for the "one true religion"
If a deity cant be bothered clearing up the confusion over the bunch of religions we currently have, couldnt they also just give up if we got it wrong and lost faith in them completely.

[Dicknose]

To go back to the point about being raised atheist rather than giving up a religion - there's nothing about it that's compelling to me. I honestly think it would be almost impossible for me to actually believe, to have faith. I'd need some actual evidence at some point, otherwise it's no different from any other religion over the millennia. I think I could *pretend* to be religious pretty easily, but I wouldn't actually believe it.

Im similar - I dont think I could "just believe" when it seems to me to be unbelievable. Its not a switch I can flick.
Im different in that I was raised christian. We were not a very religious family, but I was sent to sunday school until my early teen years. We didnt pray at home, rarely said grace, mostly on special occasions. Im not even sure if my parents actually believed, but we at least play the part.
Now I cant point to a time as when I thought it wasnt true. The reverse - I cant actually remember ever thinking it was true. Then again I cant remember ever thinking santa was true. I know that by 5 I was sure santa was an act and I should play along for the other kids. Maybe I just assumed religion was similar, something you pretended because it was a "greater good" to let others believe.
And yes, 5 year old dicknose was already a cynical smartarse.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Swervo, Well, let’s agree to disagree. I don’t believe I’m wasting my time. :p

Speaking of Time…

Yes, let’s use the test of time to measure ‘achievement’.

There were numerous amazing civilizations in human history. But if we don’t even know how to build those pyramids anymore, then it’s technically lost or gone, right? It’d be crazy for people to consider their religions seriously.

So if God of Abraham is fake, May all the religions that sprung from it eventually cease to have any relevance in our world and quit wasting everyone’s time! Amen? ;)

[Dicknose]

Point is we need to seek or take initiative I guess. After you made that leap of faith… and you didn’t fall? That would be the evidence God gives you. If there’s no God or you took a leap of faith on a false God, then likely you’ll just fall…

And if there is no god at all - why would you fall??

I could see a god punishing people with wrong faith, but a non-existent god cant punish you!

Again, I would say that your argument here goes against a christian god, since we have had plenty of successful civilisations that were not christian. Sure they might not have lasted till now, but if god letting you "fall" takes several hundred or even thousands of years and vast numbers of generations - well thats a very subtle sign.
It seems as though the success of a civilisation doesnt depend on their religion.




Christians can almost be universally agreed upon that they’re just a bunch of dumb judgemental sinful asshole…, but how can you explain the achievements of Christian nations? Thank goodness for atheists in Christian nations to carry the weight to move these lame nations forward?

Also them Jews… why in the world are they always at the center of the worlds attention? Always fighting or being killed by different people… and they’re always the last one standing.

So both christians and jews can be right...
jesus is the only way and jesus is not the way.
And this is clear because christian nations are successful and the jews havent been wiped out.

You know that religion is almost universal amongst civilisations and that some civilisations will be successful, meaning that some religion will be there for the ride. Heck it could even help the ride. But this doesnt prove the supernatural claims of the religion.

If there was only one true religion, why hasnt it won over everyone? Why hasnt its deity made it clear? Why so many different gods?
Wow its almost as if its universal that humans will invent gods.

[Dicknose]

Yes, let’s use the test of time to measure ‘achievement’.


Thats not much of a test...

if no god exists then its still possible for religious civilisations to have success and that could continue over long periods of time.
id argue that has already been shown by egyptian, roman, greek, mayan civilisations and continued with christian and islamic countries.
Then again Id say that right now there does seem to be a correlation been success and atheism. Not saying atheism causes success, the reverse, success and secular socialism reduces the need for religion.
But hey - its not like god would send a plague to wipe out the people who are wrong, hint hint, chant with me - USA! USA!
While good old secular NZ is probably doing the best.
mic drop!

[Crazed_Insanity]

Im similar - I dont think I could "just believe" when it seems to me to be unbelievable. Its not a switch I can flick.
Im different in that I was raised christian. We were not a very religious family, but I was sent to sunday school until my early teen years. We didnt pray at home, rarely said grace, mostly on special occasions. Im not even sure if my parents actually believed, but we at least play the part.
Now I cant point to a time as when I thought it wasnt true. The reverse - I cant actually remember ever thinking it was true. Then again I cant remember ever thinking santa was true. I know that by 5 I was sure santa was an act and I should play along for the other kids. Maybe I just assumed religion was similar, something you pretended because it was a "greater good" to let others believe.
And yes, 5 year old dicknose was already a cynical smartarse.

My wife is actually a cynical smartass too. She was raised in a devout Christian family and father was a pharmacist turned pastor… if it weren’t for the fact that her parents are not hypocrites and lived a modeled Christian life, for sure she would not have became Christian. That is because she can see thru hypocrites very quickly. She’s not much of a ‘believer’ like you guys, but as long as you practice what you preach, she can still respect you. However, we all know most Christians don’t practice what they preach, myself included… so I get in trouble with my wife plenty of times! :p

Anyway, my wife really hates the typical church and the fake hypocrite Christians… she is a God fearing woman but oh boy she just hates Christians… and yeah, sometimes she’d hate me too!

I think to most folks, believing is not that hard, it’s to be able to truly practice what you preach… that’s super hard. I know I often fail. I suppose that’s probably why God’s salvation isn’t performance based, just faith based.

Unfortunately for you two, asking you guys to believe is just too hard, but that’s okay, God has all the time in the universe to wait for you guys! ;)

[Crazed_Insanity]

Oh wow. So many questions from DN for me to respond to! Cool, plenty more time for me to waste tomorrow after church. Right now, I’m feeling a bit sleepy, will catch some Zzzs first. Type to you later DN!

[Crazed_Insanity]

That actually seems to be an argument in favour of god(s) being a human creation.
But a religion being successful or long lasting is in now way proof of its deity or supernatural claims.

Since deities seem reluctant to actually communicate with us in direct and obvious ways, its actually possible that an extinct religion could be correct and their deity has just given up. So I dont think we can even rule out defunct religion as an option for the "one true religion"
If a deity cant be bothered clearing up the confusion over the bunch of religions we currently have, couldnt they also just give up if we got it wrong and lost faith in them completely.
Yes. I’d agree with that somewhat.

If that entire group became extinct, either their God doesn’t exist or has given up on them. Either way, we don’t really need to praise and worship such God.

Especially if later on an atheistic society or another religion ended up thriving… and this one true God just still didn’t care enough to communicate anything…

Perhaps when scientists ended up actually discovering that our universe was truly indeed created by this couldn’t care less God, then maybe you’ll finally believe in this lame God?

Even Q would communicate and mess with capt. Picard! What would be the point of praising and worshiping such one true but don’t really care about you God? I’d rather remain an atheist if that’s truly the situation.

[Crazed_Insanity]

And if there is no god at all - why would you fall??
Think of that Indiana Jones movie, asking somebody to leap off of a cliff by faith… if God asks you to do that and you fall, obviously God is bogus. OTOH, if somehow you are stepping in air unexplained, then maybe there is a God… or maybe there’s just a bridge that you didn’t see initially… ;)


Again, I would say that your argument here goes against a christian god, since we have had plenty of successful civilisations that were not christian. Sure they might not have lasted till now, but if god letting you "fall" takes several hundred or even thousands of years and vast numbers of generations - well thats a very subtle sign.
It seems as though the success of a civilisation doesnt depend on their religion.
Yes, we’ve had plenty of successful civilizations without involving God of Abraham. We definitely can be successful without God, but I do believe time is the main differentiating factor. If it doesn’t last, then I think we can safely disregard their gods.




So both christians and jews can be right...
jesus is the only way and jesus is not the way.
And this is clear because christian nations are successful and the jews havent been wiped out.
Israel has been wiped out several times for their unfaithfulness. God has used neighboring nations as instruments to discipline Israel. Last time was when Jews crucified His Son. Responsible God should not allow His children to do whatever the hell they want. Likewise He shouldn’t be so mean to completely wipe them out too. Anyway, so yeah, I deem Jews to be a ‘success’ based on their LONG history.

Christians could be disciplined too! When Christian church started to screw around, God let their world descend down into the dark ages.

At current state, nobody has successfully stopped Jewish, Christians and Muslims. Particularly Muslims are growing quickly now. If the Muslim world begin to dominate the world too, then maybe they are right. For now, I can only see God of Abraham is probably real and Christians are probably closest to the real truth.


You know that religion is almost universal amongst civilisations and that some civilisations will be successful, meaning that some religion will be there for the ride. Heck it could even help the ride. But this doesnt prove the supernatural claims of the religion.

Yes. That’s why we need to factor in time. Further, why the universality sometimes even commonality of religions?

We will only be able to prove and explain the all away on the day we figured out all of the mysteries of this universe. Until then, we just can’t be so sure if believers are right or completely wrong.


If there was only one true religion, why hasnt it won over everyone? Why hasnt its deity made it clear? Why so many different gods?
Wow its almost as if its universal that humans will invent gods.
God has made it as clear as He can with the Bible. However people chose to either ignore it or distort it. Jesus has also supposedly paid us a visit 2000 years ago, not only people didn’t believe but they viciously killed him.

If I were God, I would’ve hit reset to this lousy world long ago. However thank God I’m not God. God still believe He has the Omni power to turn us around I guess. He also doesn’t like to oppress us by force on top, but to change us from the inside…

Jesus could’ve easily became a Roman or Chinese emperor and then he’ll be able to easily conquer the world with his message. Everyone in the world will not be able to refuse…

However, since God has all the time in the universe to wait for us to turn around, instead, He picked one of the smallest and weakest nation on earth and rather than a royal earthly family, he picked to be born in a manger as the starting position to conquer the world. He wants to conquer this world not by might, but by love.

Of course if someday Jews, Christians and Muslims were all gone and we’re left with only reasonable rational atheists, then I’d be wrong. Clearly it’s all BS and I was duped by religion.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Wouldn’t it be something for physicists to discover immortality?

https://www.wired.com/story/muon-observation-particle-physics/amp

[Dicknose]

Nothing to do with immorality - some bullshit journo writing stoned out crap.

[Dicknose]

Of course if someday Jews, Christians and Muslims were all gone and we’re left with only reasonable rational atheists, then I’d be wrong. Clearly it’s all BS and I was duped by religion.
You seem to be on a 3 way bet here...
which is correct?

If god sent us Jesus and the new testament, why are the other sects doing ok by your measures?

Why hasnt he made a better effort to be clear about this??
Heck its like he is the laziest deity ever or maybe doesnt exist.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I've already told you. It's natural for people to not only ignore Bibles, Constitutions, mandates, laws, instructions, etc...,but also for people to misinterpret them.

This could be a sign of flaw in His creation? My own wife tend to believe that..., she thought God should not have done that. World would've been a much better place if freewill could be taken out of this world... but IMHO, that's just the price one has to pay for allowing 'free will'... and God allowed for this 'design flaw' in order so that 'true love' can exist. ;)

If He doesn't care whether we truly love Him or not, and love other people or not, then He could've easily not given us free will. Without free will, He could mandate whatever He wants. We will be doing exactly what we're programmed to do.

If He wants us to wear masks, everyone will wear masks. There's be no resistance, no arguments... and nobody walking around without masks. There'd be no other sects. Everyone would be mask wearers and wearing their masks properly. No exceptions.

It'd certainly be easy to do something like that in North Korea. Would you rather have a God to be North Korean? ;)

Even when there's clear and convincing scientific data showing us the benefit of mask wearing during a pandemic and people still choose to not wear masks..., in such case, who should be blamed? The scientists or the antimaskers?

To me, blaming God is like blaming the scientists when anti-maskers refuse to wear masks. Like I said, that's the price we have to pay for having a free-will country. If people truly believe that mask wearing can not only protect them and also ones they love, they will keep on wearing them with or without mandates. If people don't believe that or don't care about others, they'll likely wear their masks with their nose sticking out or just be wearing mask on their chins. Of course those who don't believe in the benefit of masks at all would be arguing with store managers that they have a right to not wear masks that you guys are just a bunch of tools for believing the government!

Anyway, key is belief. If you believe masks will help, you will do likewise and wear them. If you don't believe, then you won't... if there's a law or mandate, you might reluctantly hang one on your face... people are motivated only by their own 'belief', not what facts scientists or whoever else presented to you. What you 'believe' is important. God just wants us to believe Him... not just about His existence, but the fact that He loves us and He knows how to lead us to live our lives to the fullest.

[JSGeneral]

Would you rather have a God to be North Korean?

Yes. Because then he would be real.

[Crazed_Insanity]

:lol:

Having a 'real' bad God would only turn me into another atheist. :p

If you can know with absolute certainty that God exists, then you'll be able to do exactly what He tells you to do?

IMHO, God's existence is not as important, but it's more important to know the true nature of God.

God has to be good AND real. At the moment, I cannot prove that He's real, but at least I believe He's good.

If we can prove conclusively that He's either not real or not good, then for sure it'll be easy for me to abandon Jesus. However, I believe there's not much dispute with Jesus' teaching, right? Nobody find the golden rule offensive, right? It's just very hard to love one another... especially if people are asked to love your political opponents...

[Dicknose]

Anyway, key is belief.
...
God just wants us to believe Him... not just about His existence, but the fact that He loves us and He knows how to lead us to live our lives to the fullest.
Why belief?
He could just communicate clearly with us all.

I see this as the biggest disproof of god, proof that it is a human made fantasy. You need belief for a fanatasy. Why would a deity need belief?

[Crazed_Insanity]

Deity doesn't need belief, it's for us. Faith, hope and love can help us go on and on and on even after the Titanic sank to the bottom. ;)

One can always blame the human tendency to divide into sects on God. One can also blame God for allowing humans doing evil. Hey! OMNIPOTENT God should not allow that! If those things happen, then there must not be a GOD!

Anyway, you are certainly free to believe that. Fact is, you also have no proof that Jesus is fake. Did he really come 2021 years ago thru a virgin and died and came back to live again and then flew up into heaven like Neo and supposedly he's flying back someday without any help from Elon Musk?

Lord knows. :p

Believe or not, it's up to us. We still live in a free country. Not North Korea! :p

[G'day Mate]

I can't disprove Cthulhu either

[G'day Mate]

Ignore my last quip, I don't think that's connected to what you're really saying.

This though ...


One can always blame the human tendency to divide into sects on God. One can also blame God for allowing humans doing evil. Hey! OMNIPOTENT God should not allow that! If those things happen, then there must not be a GOD!

The point of the original syllogism is that if people believe their god is omnipotent and omniscient (as some claim) then it becomes very difficult to reconcile that with their "word of god" doctrine.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I can't disprove Cthulhu either

Yeah, thank you for realizing that we don't really celebrate Cthulhumas! :p

Anyway, one thing atheists need to realize is that you can't insist on using only reasonings and logical methods to find God. Rational thoughts are definitely good and useful, but you also need to know its limits.

Just think of computers. They are way more logical than us. However, they are unable to perceive infinity or dividing by zero. They will blow up and get stuck!

So whenever there's a syntax error like that... that's proof enough that infinity is full of shit and can't possibly exist?

All powerful, all knowing... all this and all that... it's all 'infinity'. Logic will inevitably breakdown when we approach such infinities.

God's sword can cut thru all things!

God's shield can protect us from all things!

So what happens when we use God's sword on God's shield? What will happen? You see how such arguments end up breaking down? Can we really use logic to disprove God's all mightiness?

Think about it. Why would God uses his sword against Himself? If God really wish to commit suicide, why would He shield himself and prevent himself from killing himself if that's what he really wants? I guess we could still use reasoning to prove that sometimes our arguments don't make sense? ;)

We don't need to wrap ourselves around syntax errors and unable to move forward. Does infinity exist or not? Do you believe infinity exist? How are humans capable of grasping the concept of infinity, but not computers? Are we just more flawed that's why we need to emulate computers? We need to pretend infinity is an error and can't possibly exist in nature?

Anyway, as long as humanity has free will and live in a free country, we are going to misinterpret stuffs and split into multi-sects even if the document is written by an ALL whatever God. Imperfect beings misinterpreting God is an inevitability. You don't really need to reconcile God's sword with God's shield. God is all knowing enough and he knows Bible alone won't be enough to save and turn humanity around... that's why He also sent His Son. Even Christianity itself ended up with multiple sects. Who's right who's wrong? Personally I don't believe anybody is 100% perfectly right because we're all imperfect humans. As long as you faithfully follow Jesus the best way you know how, I'd consider you a brother of Christ. It is by faith in Jesus that one is saved rather than by 100% correct understanding of the Bible... That's just asking too much from us humans. God is not that unreasonable.

God hasn't saved us all yet. Jesus' mission looked pretty laughable 2000 years ago... how the hell are you going to save the world if you can't even save yourself from the cross! HA! But 2000 years later, Jesus doesn't look that bad! Dude definitely has been very influential over time, real or not. Even if not, Christianity has got to be one of the best scams EVER in human history?

[G'day Mate]

I've seen plenty of religious types insist on reasoning and logic as much as you say atheists do. Proponents of the Kalam cosmological argument are an example.

I've also heard things like your sword/shield analogy (another is whether God create a rock so heavy he couldn't lift it?) - to me those questions are more like asking "what's north of the north pole?" than dividing by zero. Basically the question is nonsense.

In the case of this syllogism though there are those who claim their God to be all knowing and all powerful, and it's those people who it is directed at. I guess you are not one of them.


... God is all knowing enough and he knows Bible alone won't be enough to save and turn humanity around... that's why He also sent His Son. Even Christianity itself ended up with multiple sects. Who's right who's wrong? Personally I don't believe anybody is 100% perfectly right because we're all imperfect humans. As long as you faithfully follow Jesus the best way you know how, I'd consider you a brother of Christ. It is by faith in Jesus that one is saved rather than by 100% correct understanding of the Bible... That's just asking too much from us humans. God is not that unreasonable.

All knowing enough? I dunno, seems to me like he could have done a better job.

< :sing: > Every time I look at you I don't understand, Why you let the things you did get so out of hand
You'd have managed better If you'd had it planned, Now why'd you choose such a backward time and such a strange land?
If you'd come today you could have reached a whole nation, Israel in 4 BC had no mass communication </ :sing: >

In the meantime, this not-that-unreasonable love-God is creating people who will suffer and die with no chance of ever being "saved" (from hell I presume - "don't make me hurt you!").


God hasn't saved us all yet. Jesus' mission looked pretty laughable 2000 years ago... how the hell are you going to save the world if you can't even save yourself from the cross! HA! But 2000 years later, Jesus doesn't look that bad! Dude definitely has been very influential over time, real or not. Even if not, Christianity has got to be one of the best scams EVER in human history?

Agreed on the scam bit. Historically religion has been used to control frightened people, and you're right in saying that Christianity does this very well.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I still think expecting every human being to be able comprehend God’s instructions perfectly without any errors is also nonsense. You are expecting the impossible from humans and then blaming such human failures on God!

Even scientists cannot fully agree with each other.

Also, climate change deniers and flat earthers are caused by scientists’ failure to inform the public? We live in the Information Age! How hard is it to inform the public? Our scientists must lack proper communication skills or perhaps our internet is just broken?

Regarding some people seemingly had zero chance of being saved because they never met Jesus or heard the gospel…

That’s another nonsense.

Moses never heard the gospel. All of the important Bible characters in Old Testament never heard the gospel so they all perished in hell?

God is not that unreasonable.

Lastly, is it reasonable for a bubble to never burst? Ponzi scheme to never collapse? Okay, maybe not never, but 2000 years is a long time. Maybe, just maybe God is not scamming us?

[G'day Mate]

I still think expecting every human being to be able comprehend God’s instructions perfectly without any errors is also nonsense. You are expecting the impossible from humans and then blaming such human failures on God!

You're presupposing a god. I'm not blaming a god for this, I'm saying the god everyone talks about sounds very much like made-up superstition, as evidenced by the irreconcilable differences.


Even scientists cannot fully agree with each other.

Also, climate change deniers and flat earthers are caused by scientists’ failure to inform the public? We live in the Information Age! How hard is it to inform the public? Our scientists must lack proper communication skills or perhaps our internet is just broken?

This is a false equivalence. Since is a process of refining theories based on evidence. How much change or progress do you think there's been in the fields of science vs. religion over the last 100 years? Plus nobody is claiming that scientists should be able to convince everyone of some fact. There's probably even scientific explanations for that phenomenon!

I think you're being intellectually dishonest if you're trying to compare the ability of scientists to communicate their message to a supposedly all-powerful god's ability. In fact, there's probably more consensus among scientific communities than religious ones, and science has probably reached more people in more helpful ways.


Regarding some people seemingly had zero chance of being saved because they never met Jesus or heard the gospel…

That’s another nonsense.

Moses never heard the gospel. All of the important Bible characters in Old Testament never heard the gospel so they all perished in hell?

God is not that unreasonable.

Moses and others had the benefit of burning bushes, Damascus road revelations and other direct encounters (eg. "Ok I'm going to need you to murder your s...PSYCH!!!"). All I have is a book full of contradictions and a bunch of people telling me different versions of what it means. What's a woman born into poverty in Afghanastan got?


Lastly, is it reasonable for a bubble to never burst? Ponzi scheme to never collapse? Okay, maybe not never, but 2000 years is a long time. Maybe, just maybe God is not scamming us?

You're presupposing god again.

[Crazed_Insanity]

If Jesus ever made the claim that he could convince everyone to believe and follow him without the possibility of human being making the slightest errors, he never should've been nailed on the cross in the 1st place, right? Obviously Jesus is not all whatever enough to avoid getting himself crucified? How hard is it for an almighty God to just come to this world and set things straight? Majority of his own people didn't believe him... let alone Jesus has to make sure Christianity has to not have any sects. If Jesus truly operates in ways you presuppose a God should operate, surely everyone should be Christian 2000 years ago. The dude could walk on water and raise the dead. How hard would it be to magically turn everyone a believer all in a singular sect? Shouldn't be hard at all right? I guess you're right, but obviously that's not how Jesus run things.

Let's assume that God doesn't exist. What in human history can we all agree on 100% without disagreements? Why do you insist humans to achieve that thru religion(s)? Until humanity achieve such impossible thing, we can thus know religion is false? Why do you insist on be unreasonable and then accusing me of being intellectually dishonest? Who is dishonest here? Are you sure you're being honest with yourself with your original syllogism? Even if God doesn't exist, there's nothing in human history that indicate what you're saying is even possible. At least David Copperfield, Blaine and Criss Angel have turn water into beer, walked on water and flew. Why do you ask for the impossible while already presupposing God doesn't even exist? It is almost like you stepping on the north or south pole... and then ask me, see, I can't find north. Compass is not working! So North pole doesn't exist!

If you wish to demand the impossible from God, you 1st have to believe and of course it can't be totally against His overall plan. For example pray to wish Nazi's away even if you do not have superior fire power is fine, but you probably can't pray to make Jews disappear. Well you could, but I just doubt God will answer that because He has already made promises earlier... He can't break His promises...

Anyway, besides the poor Afghans, what about tribal folks in Amazon? What about still born or aborted babies? Obviously fake Jesus will be mean enough to sentence them all to hell for all eternity! HAHAHAHAHAHA! Sounds reasonable to you? What made you believe the Jesus I believe is that mean? :rolleyes:

When it comes to religion, presupposing is inevitable. Just imagine each religious founder is like a mutual fund manager. If you were to get in on these religious mutual funds, which one of the major world religions do you think is the best performing?

You know, I really think white people of today are being unfairly blamed for their wealth and power. I seriously believe the western world achieved such successes because of their faith... and thanks to Jesus' favor and blessings, the West ended up way ahead the rest of the world. Of course just like our Ivy League schools. Every freaking one of them was a Christian school, started for Jesus by Christians..., but look at them today... absolutely none are being run by Christians nor do they prepare their students with Jesus in their hearts anymore. As we get better and better, even Christians end up becoming prideful and will forget about God. Why the heck do we need God anymore now that we're living the good life? Obviously we don't need God anymore. We know what we're doing... Israel has gone thru such cycles too. When they were slaves, they'd call on God, when lives are good, they'd forget about God and start to do evil... Even King David did that! As the scripture taught us... pride comes before the fall... if we don't humbly follow God, fall is inevitable.

Anyway, my point is, had the Africans or Asians ended up believing in Jesus in such huge numbers, it might be them dominating the world... and they will also likely make similar mistakes when they become more powerful and prideful... and perhaps oppress white men the same way. Then in such parallel world, we might have a white life matter movement. Asking black supremacists to please treat white people with more decency and respect...

All humans come with flaws. Nobody's perfect. Nobody will be able to get God's message just right. God also doesn't care if we get it just right or not. Well, He does care, but that's not on the top of His priority list. That's not how He 'judges' us. The main criteria He's using is whether if we 'believe' or not. Christians are deemed righteous by 'faith', not righteous by doing only what's right.

If the main criteria is that we can't do anything wrong, then we all are guilty and deserve to goto hell.

Faith can 'reorient' us..., to switch our heading toward the right direction. Without reorienting our heading 1st, we just might remain lost and end up perishing without reaching our destination.

Why are you here? What are you here to do? How will you do it? Where do you plan to be? If you have all your answers all figured out, naturally you don't need God in your life. For somebody as clueless as myself, I need God. How do I pick which God? Well, just like how I select mutual funds and stocks... I try my best to maximize my future returns... ;) Of course you don't have to invest for your future if you don't want to. Plenty of folks don't invest and it won't really kill them right now. All these investments could just be bubbles and will crash soon. Then you could laugh at them for believing in Pascal... wasted all their time and money wagering on the existence of a non-existent God. ;)

Too many presuppositions we can use..., but this is the nature of religious discussions. We don't have any solid facts to base our arguments on. All we have are little clues around the world in human history... helping those who might want to believe to be able to believe, yet still unconvincing enough for those who don't want to believe to not believe. Like earth orbiting around the sun at just the right distance... is this by design or just by luck? Allowing this Son of God to be crucified on the cross... how weak and lame is this God? Can't even save His Son?!?!? Nobody can really win these arguments. So just let people believe whatever they want to believe. Nobody will be forced into heaven and have eternal life shoved down their throats if they don't want to. :p

This is how I wager... if Jesus is bogus, at least his teachings are good. I don't believe I would end up making this world a worse place for my kids if I try my best to practice what Jesus preached.

In order to convert me away from Christianity, Christ's existence matters little, but if you can show me a flaw in Christ's teaching, then maybe I could be convinced.

If you agree Christ's teachings are good, but still refuse to follow him or believe you're better than Christ... good for you I guess. Just be careful NOT to get too prideful.

Anyway, back to your original syllogism, I just happened to stumbled onto this chapter in today's reading of the bible. It's a letter written by Paul addressing the issues of various sects... Obvious Paul did not like people splitting up into various sects too. However, for whatever reasons, Paul did not take that as proof that Jesus just wasn't all knowing or all powerful enough. He continued to preach the gospel. Of course I agree with Paul, why should God be blamed for human weakness? You may continue to disagree with Paul and Billi and think we're intellectually dishonest, but that doesn't mean gospel news would be halted and the christianity bubble would pop! :p

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+1%3A10-25&version=NIV

If you need God to follow your reasons and logic otherwise you won't believe, then perhaps you don't really need to follow that God. Just keep on following yourself! Because you must be better than God already! What's the point of following a God who has to take orders from you?

God of Abraham has caused many different sects and they are not all correct for sure. In fact, I can bet nobody is 100% right. I can't even be 100% right. I try my best to aim for being 100% right, but I know I'm not 100% right. Anyway, all these sects combine to dominate the world whether you like it or not. God of Abraham is the most monopolizing God thus far in human history. Why do you think that is? They actually enjoy having wars with each other? What made God of Abraham so different from all other Gods in the world? Do you have a reasonable explanation for that?

I really don't, except for a supernatural reason.

When it comes to religion, I think it's a waste of time for atheists to try to prove God's non-existence. All we have to do is to make a choice to either believe or not and leave it at that.

Even if we could prove conclusively God(s) can't possibly exist whatsoever and atheism is 100% correct without any doubt, Humanity will continue to form many other non-religious sects and fight endless bogus wars for their own sinful stupid reasons. That... is human nature. Whether we evolved that way or because Adam got prideful and fell, it doesn't matter. Humanity sucks and needs to be saved... or corrected... by Somebody.

Don't blame God for human failures that's all I'm trying to say.

[Dicknose]

All humans come with flaws. Nobody's perfect. Nobody will be able to get God's message just right. God also doesn't care if we get it just right or not. Well, He does care, but that's not on the top of His priority list. That's not how He 'judges' us. The main criteria He's using is whether if we 'believe' or not. Christians are deemed righteous by 'faith', not righteous by doing only what's right.


It does seem odd that a deity needs people to believe in them.
And if that is the main criteria, why deliver your message/proof of existence in such an obscure way that its very hard to believe.

How many messengers of god have there been - all who had their god talk to them or give them important info on tablets or metal sheets. Then they are lost or destroyed!
An all powerful god could communicate with everyone, at the same time, in a way that is perfectly clear.

The failure here is not humans. Its the being with all the power being intentionally so obtuse that its not clear if they exist or which people/books represent them. Then covering this up by having people require belief!

So what is the word of god - the new testament, or the koran, or the book of mormon? Or just the torah?
Why do none of these contain anything that is clearly advance knowledge beyond what people at the time would have?

Why has he not noticed that there is a problem, not just a lack of knowledge about them, but that the confusion itself is causing problems? Come on dude, fix this, its a mess.
And a deity could just send a clear message and have this fixed, without ruining free will. People would still have moral failings.

So Im not blaming god for human failings, Im blaming them for not recognising them and doing at least a min effort to clear up this mess.

[Crazed_Insanity]

The Bible has been preserved faithfully. Modern day Bible is a pretty faithful reproduction compared to the Dead Sea scrolls.

Jesus has also paid us a visit 2000 years ago. Why didn’t most believe and Jews actually killed him? Was it because Jesus has communication problems? Not powerful enough to protect himself?

Look, you’re just too smart for your own good. Majority of the human population believe in God. It’s not that hard for people to believe.

Lastly, it really makes no sense to expect God to perform in a way that is satisfactory to you in order to believe. If a God requires to meet your standards for you to worship him, why even bother? If I think I can do better and have a higher better standard than God, I’d be an atheist too and just be Lord of myself! :p

I only believe God because I also believe He is far superior to me. I thought a crucified Christ is one amazing love story. Something I would never thought to do and even if I thought of it, I might not be able to carry it out.

[neanderthal]

"I like your Christ. I do not like your christians. They are so unlike your Christ." Mohandas Karamchand (Mahatma to you) Gandhi. (small c me.)

If I can't tell you're a Christian by your comportment and actions, you're just a person going to a social club to make yourself feel good about your morality. JMO.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Nobody is asking you to follow me or any other Christians. Christians are no better than you or anybody else. If somehow they live better lives, it's only because of God's grace and blessings. In fact, lots of Christians were probably way worse sinners than you prior to their conversion. There are also lots of hypocritical Christians attending sunday services regularly...

Anyway, If you truly like Christ, just follow him. Christianity is about Christ, not Christians.

I like Gandhi too. However, I don't think he started his own religion yet?

[G'day Mate]

How hard is it for an almighty God to just come to this world and set things straight?

For an almighty God I imagine it would be trivial.

He would know exactly what it would take to either convince me directly or set me on a path of discovery and enlightenment.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Yes He would. He knows the exact time that will happen too! ;)

I never thought He would get me. I really hated Christians and that hatred peaked when W occupied the WH. Well, maybe hatred was too strong of an adjective, but for sure disdain… same exact sentiments as Gandhi. If you had asked me during that time if I ever thought of becoming a Christian, I would’ve said no way!

Hey, I prayed for cease fire, God made it happen. Will be praying for you guys too. Of course Jesus is no Borg, resistance is still possible. Jesus would only want people to join His collective freely by choice.

[G'day Mate]

So god knows how to convince me, but he might wait until it's too late to do it. That seems reasonable :erm:

Let's not get into the efficacy of prayer ... :p

[Crazed_Insanity]

If God is all knowing, then He should know to not do it too early nor do it too late. He should be right on time! ;)

Prayers work for me, that's why I pray! :)

[G'day Mate]

Well there must be people who could be "saved" but never are, which means there are a couple of possible scenarios:
- God may know how and when to save someone but chooses not to do it
- God may have created someone knowing they cannot be "saved"

[Crazed_Insanity]

Or it may just be the person doesn’t want to be saved?

Why is it always God’s fault? Have some responsibility please.

Free will.

[G'day Mate]

Surely not all people who aren't saved actively reject god. Perhaps there are some who have been mislead and want to accept him but instead worship the wrong god, or the wrong version of him.

For the others, if god knows the "exact time" someone will be saved, wouldn't he know in advance that they won't want to be?


Born under one law, to another bound; Vainly begot, and yet forbidden vanity, Created sick, commanded to be sound

[Crazed_Insanity]

I guess so, but I’m not God so I could be wrong…

Anyway, knowing God, I’m pretty sure He saved all who’d like to be saved, including indigenous folks who never heard of the gospel, still born aborted babies, and all other scenarios you can think of. :p

I’m pretty sure if you don’t enter heaven, it will be because you made a choice not to… not because Jesus did something to mess you up or failed to do something for you! :p

Don’t sweat it. If you honestly believe Jesus sucks, it’s probably good to not spend all eternity with him. That would be hell, right?

To be honest, my wife is not looking forward to spending all eternity with other 'christians'. She sometimes even find me annoying... as most of you probably know why... :p However, hopefully she'll be able to develop more tolerance or patience... or perhaps christians in heaven will be able to finally fix all of their problems by then? I dunno. I'm not there yet. Just hoping...

As for all those hypocritical christians who believe christ's sacrifice is a license for them to freely sin... or judgemental Christians who don't know what grace is such as those westboro baptists... they most likely won't be able to enter heaven... righteous by faith is NOT a license to freely sin or to believe you are actually better than other sinners.

[G'day Mate]

Next hand-grenade ...

If Adam and Eve had no understanding of good and evil, how could they have known it was wrong to eat from the tree of knowledge?

[Tom Servo]

Took me a bit, but that's a solid point. Like trying to explain nuance to Derek in The Good Place. Just dopes with no knowledge somehow expected to know things.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Let's ignore babies for now and simply go with children who can speak and have some reasoning abilities... Whatever age that might be...

Do they have any understanding of good and evil? How do they know what's right or what's wrong?

I have to say little kids can only 'know' by what the parents told them, right?

When the parents say no no no... and you still go go go... that's how you learn that you're bad bad, really really bad! ;)

However, just because you're such a bad boy, it doesn't mean your parents will end up hating you and want you to rot in hell. Good parents will continue to guide their annoying children back on the right path. That's what God has been doing since Adam and Eve fell... helping humanity to get back up.

Again, back to the free will thing... besides it being a necessity in order to determine whether or not if love is true, A&E were also allowed to use freewill to choose something that's not good so that they can actually learn and 'know' what good really is. Now, I don't believe 'knowledge' was the main problem. If A&E wish to know more, they could've asked God Himself. Or ask for permission to eat from that tree. The main problem was, they did this behind God's back... they believed the serpent more than God... that's just not very good.

Nevertheless it's perfectly fine to screw up and make mistakes and fall. Important thing is that we learn from our mistakes and get back up and try something different so that we won't fall the same way again and again...

As children of A&E, we all have similar tendencies to not believe in God and try to do our own thing.

As children of God, we can do all things and we also know not 'everything' is beneficial to us.

[Rare White Ape]

Defend this:
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-01-31/qld-school-contract-lgbtqi-citipointe-christian-college/100791734

[Tom Servo]

I suppose at least they actually get that sex and gender are two separate things?

[Crazed_Insanity]

Well, I don’t always agree with mainstream media and I don’t always agree with mainstream Christianity as well…

Mainstream isn’t always right. Being with the herd is safe, but not always right.

Anyway, not sure if what this school is doing is really ‘mainstream’, but if you’re pinging for my interpretation of the Bible, here it is:

It’s pretty similar to all those other issues I’ve been debating in other threads. God is both prolife and pro choice; however, when push comes to shove, He will always let you make your own choices.

The prime example of pro life would be tree of life in Eden. Tree of knowledge would be representative of prochoice. There’s no question that God is in favor of tree of life, but God also planted that tree of knowledge Himself and never actually stopped A&E eating from it.

Now back to your school story, whatever life/gender/orientation you’re born with it, pretty sure God would prefer you to stick with the cards that you’re dealt with. If we wish to switch our cards, pretty sure God wouldn’t stop us though. From A&E to prodigal son, God will always let them make their choices, but hopefully they will learn from their lessons in the end.

It’s pointless to ask A&E and prodigal son to sign any contracts as if that piece of paper will actually accomplish anything. We humans could easily break marriage vows…

[Dicknose]

Update... the school dropped this and now the principle has resigned.
I think this was terrible.

And it has completely blown up in their face. Worse its probably hurt the movement for religious rights in the country.
The govt promised(!) that they would create a bill of religious rights, this was suppose to appease the more right wing religious groups after same sex marriage passed. However there is tricky issues mostly about religion being an exemption from other laws such as discrimination. This is particularly a problem when a business is run by a religion, especially education and health.

Im also not keen on any business that is being significantly funded by the govt being able to sidestep discrimination laws that other equivalent businesses have to obey. Its a lot different from a church, but schools and hospitals that have a religious backing shouldn't say "we wont employ people who we think are sinners" when they are using govt money to help run these businesses. In many places they are used not because they are religious but because they are the nearest service provider.

My own view is that this coming up has just given ammunition to the people against religious exemptions. Proponents of religious rights have often said that extremes wouldn't happen, but this was a warning shot that some places could push.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Speaking for us Christians, just look at our Lord. He was not wrong, yet he yielded all the way until his death on the cross rather than imposing his truth onto the people.

Christians ought to think about that. What would our Lord do? Forcing people to live in a certain way or just try our best to love other people, even to our death?

God wants people to love Him and love one another. True love also require free will…

The sooner we can learn how to love, the sooner this simulation/matrix could end! :p

[Rare White Ape]

@DN I see job ads come up occasionally for lab techs at religious schools. They are on my list of places to never apply for a job, along with fossil fuel companies.

Yes, I am practicing discrimination.

[Dicknose]

Seems a US Catholic priest has stuffed up baptisms for 20 years. These mean they were invalid - these people are now destined for hell!!!
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-02-15/us-catholic-priest-resigns-after-thousands-of-baptisms-ruled-ine/100830676

Oh if only God could just accept it as a minor mistake and not have to condemn these people to eternal damnation. But the Vatican has been clear (and they are the official spokesmen for Catholic God) no baptism, no salvation. http://www.beginningcatholic.com/baptism
I particularly like how the baptism requires zero participation by the person, they could be a 1 day old baby or someone in a coma. God gives us free will to be a non willing participant to what the church claims as the most important thing that can happen to you. No need to believe, submit or even be aware of what's happening!!

[Crazed_Insanity]

Just google the Bible itself to find out how one can be saved. My take on what Bible teaches is that we're saved by faith. Not sure if Bible teaches that we're saved by Catholic Church. Catholic Church does not have the monopoly on saving souls, whether the priest did things right or not. Father Abraham was saved by faith... when Catholic church wasn't even born yet.

[Tom Servo]

Is there a point in baptisms, then? I was baptized, but only because my grandmother insisted. I think we'd all agree that I'm not a shoe-in for heaven at this point.

[Crazed_Insanity]

It's like a wedding ceremony. What's the point of that? If you two love birds signed on your marriage certificate, you are legally married, whether you have a ceremony or not, right? People can't say that you are not really married because you did not have a ceremony, right?

My understanding of the scripture is that the point of such ceremonies is essentially your public declaration of your faith(baptism) or love(wedding ceremony).

It is kinda silly to perform wedding ceremonies for little babies/children or to unconscious folks. If the pastor or priest or clerk misspoke on something..., that should not nullify your marriage! You could also go thru with a fake wedding ceremony to keep your grandma happy! ;)

As soon as you believe in Jesus, you're saved man! Baptisms are nice to have, but not absolutely necessary.

[Tom Servo]

Well, as symbolic and ultimately unnecessary ceremonies go, baptism feels way up there in the list.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Symbolic of drowning the old and be born again new? Yes. Unnecessary? I wouldn’t put it that way. After all, Jesus himself was baptized. If it’s really unnecessary, I’m sure he would’ve skipped it too. Life is too short to be wasting it on unnecessary things…

[Tom Servo]

I'm unclear then. You did just compare it to a wedding ceremony with "what's the point of that?" What am I missing here?

[Crazed_Insanity]

Most couples do not skip their wedding ceremonies, right? Obviously most don’t see it as pointless and unnecessary.

However, legally, it is indeed not required.

A lot of things can be paradoxical and confuse computer programmers. It’s like is Jesus God or human? Is God prolife or prochoice? Are photons wave or particle?

Answer is both! :p

[Tom Servo]

Well, I suppose that answer was both illuminating and nonsense.

[Dicknose]

Is there a point in baptisms, then? I was baptized, but only because my grandmother insisted. I think we'd all agree that I'm not a shoe-in for heaven at this point.

According to the Catholic church it is important, a necessary condition. But not a sufficient condition.
Basically confession is worthless without it as your soul is not ready.

[Dicknose]

Baptisms are nice to have, but not absolutely necessary.
If you are catholic they are necessary!! And needs the exact wording!

Some born again christian sects also require a baptism.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Well, I suppose that answer was both illuminating and nonsense.

:lol:

That was an understandable and funny response! Now, I wouldn't put it as complete nonsense, but I have to admit that is what it felt like to me when I learned photons are BOTH waves and particles... such seemingly confusing dualities exist not only in the Bible, but also in nature.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Taken from political thread:



Also, let's not forget a lot of Ukrainians are Jewish, not Christian. Including Zelenskyy.

When you say "your [my] Christian past", I'm assuming you mean my ancestors who were Christian as I don't really have any personal Christian past to speak of. I do not harbor any shame about that, just like I wouldn't if they were Jewish or Muslim or Hindu or what have you. You continually try to ascribe to me this animosity against Christianity that I just don't have. I think a lot of bad things have been done in the name of Christianity throughout the centuries, just like they were for other religions. Being introspective and potentially critical isn't shame. I have relatives in the clergy, I don't think less of them just because I also recognize the atrocities that have been carried out throughout history in the name of Christianity.


I don't know many Ukrainians and I know Zelensky is Jewish, but at least according to Wiki, Ukrainians are predominantly Orthodox Christians.

Anyway, perhaps I shouldn't call that 'shame', but just 'lack of interest' of your culture's past?

I kinda see religions as operating systems. Of course atheism is a kind of operating system too. We must all be operating based on something? Regardless of the color of the computer system, it's clear that we all have the same hardware. Why some societies are able to get ahead and others not? I think the differences are due to superior operating system.

Europeans have updated their operating systems multiple times. I think we're at the point to decide whether we all need to 'upgrade' our society to atheism. Personally, I'm not so sure... I think it's a downgrade. Europeans have definitely been ahead of US at upgrading to secularism/atheism... and I'm not sure Europe is doing much better than before...

Bible is also a book that just seemed ridiculous at 1st glance. End times will have more wars, plagues, famines, natural disasters? How is that possible in a modern world?!?!? Well, it doesn't look so impossible now.

[Tom Servo]

I wouldn't even necessarily call it a lack of interest.

But I don't buy the idea that the west became dominant because of its religion. There are way too many other factors involved. Norway's thrived the most when their society has become the most secular. Lots of countries were converted to Christianity that still are not thriving. Correlation is not causation.

For what it's worth, anybody who believes in the science of climate change doesn't consider that ridiculous, it's what they've been warning about for decades. The world's population has exploded right before we're going into a situation where severe weather, droughts, flooding, etc will become more commonplace. That and we keep encroaching further and further into the territory of wild animals that have zoomorphic diseases that previous were kept far enough away from us to not cause plagues. None of this seems ridiculous.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Anyway, at least to me at first glance, bible was really hard to believe. :p When I 1st got baptized, we were worrying about that hole in the Ozone layer only. I don't think we were worrying too much about climate change. Cold war ended and even China became more free... possibility of another world war just didn't seem possible back then... Was hoping perhaps even those local regional wars will become less and less as well...

There are indeed too many factors to consider why the white white west thrived. I mean in a big way! Not just Norway! :p Naturally there were also plenty of human civilizations that thrive before Christ. Not trying to sell the idea that Gospel is just about thriving. After all, world's very 1st Christian ended up on the cross! However, Jesus did teach people how to live to the full though. People just need to take that leap of faith to get there.

There are also very many factors to consider how the universe came into existence. We don't know all the factors, but most liberal scholars tend to just know that it can't possibly be a Creator. ;)

Hey, most Christians probably have failed to truly follow Jesus faithfully, that's why a lot of mistakes were done by Christians. But God is not afraid of people making mistakes as long as we learn from our mistakes. Supposedly God can make all things, whether good or bad, continue to benefit the people who love Him.

If it's not the Gospel, than the main factor for the success of the West must be color of white people's skins then! However I'm not that racist to actually believe that. The other main factor would just be Christianity, but if you cannot buy that factor, then all you have left are all those other factors which we can just call luck?

[Dicknose]

Why some societies are able to get ahead and others not? I think the differences are due to superior operating system.

Read "Guns Germs and Steel"... it would argue that geography and availability of animals to domestic have been major factors.
Europe has been a significant (if not dominant) area for civilisation for much of the past 10k years - since before Abrahamic religions. Many of the civilisations (Egyptian, Greek, early Roman) were other religions.

Using your analogy to computers, Id argue its got a better hardware base. The operating system being successful is more a reflection of the base system underneath.
Similarly the US has many geographic advantages as well as having a start from the dominant culture of the time.

Most of the evidence would point to strong societies causing their religions to prosper, not the other way around.
Re Tom's "correlation is not causation", Id say its actually causation but that you have cause and effect swapped.

[Dicknose]

If it's not the Gospel, than the main factor for the success of the West must be color of white people's skins then! However I'm not that racist to actually believe that. The other main factor would just be Christianity, but if you cannot buy that factor, then all you have left are all those other factors which we can just call luck?
Or you know, actually look at what scholars have said...
Saying it can only be religion or skin colour is extreme ignorance.

[Dicknose]

At least have a look at:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guns,_Germs,_and_Steel

The wiki page has enough of the critical details to explain the logic.

[Yw-slayer]

Why am I not surprised that he spouts the same brainwashed offensive extremist bullshit that I've (fortunately very rarely) heard before from some people.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Read "Guns Germs and Steel"... it would argue that geography and availability of animals to domestic have been major factors.
Europe has been a significant (if not dominant) area for civilisation for much of the past 10k years - since before Abrahamic religions. Many of the civilisations (Egyptian, Greek, early Roman) were other religions.

Using your analogy to computers, Id argue its got a better hardware base. The operating system being successful is more a reflection of the base system underneath.
Similarly the US has many geographic advantages as well as having a start from the dominant culture of the time.

Most of the evidence would point to strong societies causing their religions to prosper, not the other way around.
Re Tom's "correlation is not causation", Id say its actually causation but that you have cause and effect swapped.

Strong civilizations have certainly prospered in the past, but a lot were lost over time, including their religions.

Christianity is not even European in origin, it's supposed to be a branch of Jewish religion. Jews rejected it and crucified it... so it moved Westward. Romans were not Christians originally and they were definitely strong, but has there ever been a strong empire switching religions? Also Roman Empire crumbled. Yet this foreign religion that they supposedly adopted didn't cease to exist with it. Yes, there were a lot of bad things that happened with organized religion, but Christianity continued to push the Western world to new heights.

I really find it hard to believe guns, germs and steel are the main reason. If so, then surely China could have more guns, more germs and more steel to overtake the western world.

I think we can safely conclude being white is not the reason. You seem to be certain religion absolutely cannot be the reason, yet, can you provide evidence? It's kinda hard to prove which caused what, right? Which came 1st? Chicken or the egg? Probably the egg, right? I personally believe it's the Word of God that's the 'seed' which caused everything to germinate in the West. Something caused those guns, germs and steel to happen. You're pretty sure it must've been luck being on the side of the West in order to develop enough guns, germs and steel to dominate the world. To me, whether if it's luck or God, that's kinda like the same difference. Western world ought not to be too prideful of their achievements.

Personally I prefer God over luck, because we can't count on luck, but we can count on God.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Why am I not surprised that he spouts the same brainwashed offensive extremist bullshit that I've (fortunately very rarely) heard before from some people.

What am I saying that is so offensive and extreme?

[Dicknose]

I really find it hard to believe guns, germs and steel are the main reason. If so, then surely China could have more guns, more germs and more steel to overtake the western world.

Did you read any of the wiki page??



You seem to be certain religion absolutely cannot be the reason, yet, can you provide evidence? It's kinda hard to prove which caused what, right? Which came 1st? Chicken or the egg? Probably the egg, right?
And the egg being civilisation, agriculture, metalwork and other technologies - they came before the Abrahamic religions.
So yeah the "egg" came first. Europe had a head start that places such as the Americas, sub Saharan Africa, Australia - they were not going to develop the same level of technology in the same time period.
So europe conquered Americas, not the other way - that wasn't religion or luck. It was something that was set in motion (slow motion) a few thousand years earlier.

Where was the word of your god when Egypt, Babylon, Greece were flourishing?
Human civilisation and technology advanced in europe/middle east for many thousand years before your god became known to anything but a tiny percentage of people. Did this god advance non believers, so that thousands of years later his followers could gain control? Bold plan with plenty of patience.

You will probably say "in the long game god came out on top", but that is just an argument for the success of the religion being dependant on the civilisation, not the other way around. If god really helped his believers then they should have been the dominant people for the whole time.

As for Asia and in particular China, they had times when they were the dominant civilisation. But its likely that structural reasons caused them to stagnate. Europe developed many smaller states that were in competition, which drove technology and even expansion.

And dont get me started on why an omnipotent god only communicated with a small tribe of people in a specific part of the world. Sorry Australian aborigines - god ignored you for 60 thousand years. Did he have a limit on burning bushes??

[Rare White Ape]

Why am I not surprised that he spouts the same brainwashed offensive extremist bullshit that I've (fortunately very rarely) heard before from some people.

What DN said about extreme ignorance is putting it mildly.

I'd say that ascribing a magical story of creation, which is designed to keep people stupid and under control, to some other kind of seemingly miraculous achievement because of said story is bordering on insane.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Did you read any of the wiki page??
Yes. From Wiki: "Diamond argues that Eurasian civilization is not so much a product of ingenuity, but of opportunity and necessity. That is, civilization is not created out of superior intelligence, but is the result of a chain of developments, each made possible by certain preconditions."

So I think we all agree it's not due to the color of their skin. However, when it comes to 'preconditions' and 'opportunities', these things can become very debatable, right?

I think Japan was probably the most faithful at copying western civilization. Down to how they'd dress themselves. Their success was short-lived though. Twice they tried to dominate the world, WWII militarily and during the 80's financially. Japan has historically been asia's most industrious and ambitious nation, but so far just not so lucky? I'd argue that they missed the most important ingredient, which is Christianity, but I suppose it's also possible that they're just not as fortunate as the US to be blessed with plenty of natural resources.

So perhaps with an ambitious dictator in China, soon China should be able to dominate the world by sheer number of guns, germs and steel? Plus, China should also have plenty of natural resources, unlike Japan.

However, I'd rather China become a superpower by becoming a follower of Christ, rather than just becoming a powerful dick nation thinking that they can play God. USA politicians are already trying to play God around the globe..., if Christianity isn't ingrained in US culture, our success could so quickly turn us into another evil empire.




And the egg being civilisation, agriculture, metalwork and other technologies - they came before the Abrahamic religions.
So yeah the "egg" came first. Europe had a head start that places such as the Americas, sub Saharan Africa, Australia - they were not going to develop the same level of technology in the same time period.
So europe conquered Americas, not the other way - that wasn't religion or luck. It was something that was set in motion (slow motion) a few thousand years earlier.

Where was the word of your god when Egypt, Babylon, Greece were flourishing?
I'm simply using the same law of natural selection. We had thriving dinos, but they disappeared. Now we have humans. We had thriving ancient civilizations, but they've disappeared. Yet, the God of Abraham the goat herder ended up dominating the world religion stage. We cannot explain this, so we try to just explain it away as nonsense. Look, Greeks and Romans flipped, right? So it's definitely possible for a civilization to 'upgrade' their operating system half way. The West is probably set to have another update into secularism/atheism. Would it help the West? Or maybe West is just running out of luck? I'm not a fortunate teller, I wouldn't know. However, my faith in Jesus is telling me abandoning Jesus can't possibly be very helpful. I would not personally take such a leap of faith.


Human civilisation and technology advanced in europe/middle east for many thousand years before your god became known to anything but a tiny percentage of people. Did this god advance non believers, so that thousands of years later his followers could gain control? Bold plan with plenty of patience.
God is love. Love is patient. Most people just didn't want to believe in this lame God. Only stupid idiots like Noah or Abraham had such faith... so God always started out small. Similarly with Christianity. It started with just one dead Jesus. If God's plan isn't bold and if God lost patience, surely our world would be destroyed already? ;)


You will probably say "in the long game god came out on top", but that is just an argument for the success of the religion being dependant on the civilisation, not the other way around. If god really helped his believers then they should have been the dominant people for the whole time.
The thing is God's people have to have sufficient faith in Him. Most people in the world don't really want to believe Him... and God still wants people to exercise their freewill to choose and not force them. Like I said, people like Noah and Abraham are really the exceptions rather than the rules. Once faithful believers can be found, then God could start build on that. Besides faith in God, believers also need to be obedient. When Jews were obedient, they could win every single battle. When they forget about God, then they often times end up enslaved or just wondering around in the wilderness... So belief in God is the 1st step, humbleness and obedience to God will be the following steps.

Don't get me wrong, I do agree we don't absolutely need God to achieve success. We can definitely work hard and achieve greatness, but if we want 'longterm' success, it'd be better if we follow God.

If western civilizations ended up adopting secularism/atheism and still can do reasonably well(without become another Japan), then I think I might end up letting Jesus go to. However, I really don't see that happening. Europe is for sure not as christian as before and they are also for sure not the dominant world player today. Still major enough, but just not dominant. Even USA is in decline..., otherwise there'd be no need to talk about MAGA, right?

Another way for me to lose faith in Jesus is that majority of Americans are still faithful follower of Jesus and the numbers are steadily climbing... and yet we still end up declining overall... Now, that'd be a pointless religion.


As for Asia and in particular China, they had times when they were the dominant civilisation. But its likely that structural reasons caused them to stagnate. Europe developed many smaller states that were in competition, which drove technology and even expansion.
Pride of the arrogant self centered emperors caused China to stagnate. European/Japanese invasions also didn't help matters for sure.
We Chinese called our nations the 'middle nation'. Literally assuming we are in the middle of heaven and earth and our emperors were self proclaimed son of gods! When our emperors are good, China would do really well. When an emperor became corrupt, naturally China would be in trouble. Most of the time, dictators wouldn't be very good... ;)


And dont get me started on why an omnipotent god only communicated with a small tribe of people in a specific part of the world. Sorry Australian aborigines - god ignored you for 60 thousand years. Did he have a limit on burning bushes??
God chose Abraham because Abraham has sufficient faith to be able to respond to God. If an aussie aborigine were more faithful than Abraham, I suppose it is theoretically possible for this to start in Australia? I can't 2nd guess God, but suffice to say, God's plan was to just start His thing at a singular location. Even if He picked Australia, you can probably continue to blame Him for ignoring folks in the Middle East, right? No matter where God starts it, you will be able to find a reason to complain about God's unfairness, right?

If you were God, what would you do? Start your religion everywhere at the same time? ;)

[Crazed_Insanity]

What DN said about extreme ignorance is putting it mildly.

I'd say that ascribing a magical story of creation, which is designed to keep people stupid and under control, to some other kind of seemingly miraculous achievement because of said story is bordering on insane.

I know Swervo isn't ashamed of Christianity, but I think it's safe to say that DN and RWA are extremetly ashamed of Christianity, right?

Believing that the religion of the west is extreme ignorance..., but thanks to lady luck that the West lucked out! ;)

I can understand why YW would think this way... I was previously just like him. The west is clearly admired by people all over the globe, but people all over the globe also can't help but harbor the feeling of hatred and jealousy... because after all, the West did colonize and exploit the rest of the world for their own gain.

The western world is clearly not perfect and has done plenty of wrongs/evils, but I can see this is not really due to their faith in Christ. However, Christ could still somehow turn these evils for the benefit of those who love him though...

Seriously, there's nothing ignorant about Christ's teachings. Perhaps love thy enemy is a bit extreme, but I'd prefer that kind of extremism than the kind of extremism I see in the world today.

[Yw-slayer]

Did you read any of the wiki page??

Dude, he only reads The Bible. Probably only the New Testament.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Sometimes I dabble into the Old Testament... Today I happened to read Joel 3

9
Proclaim this among the nations:
Prepare for war!
Rouse the warriors!
Let all the fighting men draw near and attack.
10
Beat your plowshares into swords
and your pruning hooks into spears.
Let the weakling say,
“I am strong!”
11
Come quickly, all you nations from every side,
and assemble there.

Bring down your warriors, Lord!

Anyway, I sincerely hope this is not the beginning of WW3, but even if it is, may God help us. I know we can count on Him!

[Dicknose]

If you were God, what would you do? Start your religion everywhere at the same time? ;)

Um well yes. That seems obvious.
Unless of cause you aren't real and just a man made story - in that case you must start in a single place.

The "we dont know gods will" is a great way to hide the fact that he has zero direct influence and that of the billions of people who live/have lived he has only directly contacted a handful.

Why doesn't he just make himself known - oh that's right, we must have faith!


But getting back to the advancement of civilisation, upgrading operating system (religion) shows that progress can happen no matter the religion. There have been many different civilisations that have the dominant power of their time. They would have all shared characteristics of "guns, germ, steel" (more accurately agriculture and domestic animals leading to technology). But they didn't share the same religion. This seems very good evidence towards religion piggybacking on the civilisations. And it is likely that the religion can affect the success, but its not as important as the other factors. It could make a difference between civilisations that are otherwise similar (and have equal access to these other factors)

So why was Egypt the first place to have such excess wealth that they could build a pyramid - the tallest made man structure for over 3000 years??? Must have been their god.
Europe under the greeks reached a place where they created a new level of mathematics, with things like proofs and concepts like prime numbers. This was an amazing achievement. One that depended on a successful economy and civilisation. Again - with a different religion.

This was have eventually happened in other places, but you do need a very good economy to be able to support this level of education and scholarship. There was some of this in the americas, but making a mayan calendar is a long way from Pythagorus.
Might seem odd, but having wheat, barley, sheep, cattle, goats and horses is a huge factor in being able to create advance mathematics.
The more domesticated species of plants and animals, the better the civilisation was at creating technology and arts. The religion doesn't seem to be a critical factor as many of these things happened over many thousands of years before your god became widespread in any civilisation.

Can you explain the success of europe, middle east and asia in the several thousand years prior to christianity being widespread? Does your god even play a part in that?

[Dicknose]

I know Swervo isn't ashamed of Christianity, but I think it's safe to say that DN and RWA are extremetly ashamed of Christianity, right?
Believing that the religion of the west is extreme ignorance..., but thanks to lady luck that the West lucked out! ;)


Im not ashamed of christianity, I just think like all other deity based religions that its fundamentally flawed and seems to be a primitive relic.
Its been a significant part of our western civilisation for a long while. But I dont see it as being the factor that made the west successful, "guns, germs and steel" gives a much better answer to that.

And I dont think "luck" is the main reason for the rise of europe. Again read that wiki - there are tangible factors. Maybe it is luck that more useful and easy to domesticate animals are found in that area. But it would only seem like luck if you start by picking europe and asking why was it so lucky? Picking the winner after the event.

Instead you realise that there will be a winner, and ask "what factors" and then see that some place must have an excess of useful factors and hence will be the leader. Then you can see that the middle east had these factors, they spread to europe and with some climate change an advantage moved from the middle east to europe. Yes this climate change was important - it does seem weird that the middle east is not as suitable as europe for growing crops, but was once "the fertile crescent".
So it wasn't luck, it was a series of factors and competition that had a series of places being the leader. But one common factor was that theses leading civilisations all had similar advantages, either innately in their geography/climate or via borrowing factors such as domesticated plants and animals, and technology such as metal working, pottery, agricultural practices. They built off each other.
Any civilisation that wasn't connected to them was left behind and had no chance of ever catching up, until they were either given the technology or more likely invaded/settled.
The USA wouldn't be any sort of significant power if europe hadn't made contact and brought wheat, horses and vast amounts of technological knowledge. That it then had attributes such as vast suitable land and mineral resources helped it. But these were only put to their best use with the influx of european civilisation.
Then again maybe "just god" - but that's not really much of an argument is it? Doesn't explain why some extremely christian countries aren't as successful.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Um well yes. That seems obvious.
Unless of cause you aren't real and just a man made story - in that case you must start in a single place.

The "we dont know gods will" is a great way to hide the fact that he has zero direct influence and that of the billions of people who live/have lived he has only directly contacted a handful.

Why doesn't he just make himself known - oh that's right, we must have faith!


But getting back to the advancement of civilisation, upgrading operating system (religion) shows that progress can happen no matter the religion. There have been many different civilisations that have the dominant power of their time. They would have all shared characteristics of "guns, germ, steel" (more accurately agriculture and domestic animals leading to technology). But they didn't share the same religion. This seems very good evidence towards religion piggybacking on the civilisations. And it is likely that the religion can affect the success, but its not as important as the other factors. It could make a difference between civilisations that are otherwise similar (and have equal access to these other factors)

So why was Egypt the first place to have such excess wealth that they could build a pyramid - the tallest made man structure for over 3000 years??? Must have been their god.
Europe under the greeks reached a place where they created a new level of mathematics, with things like proofs and concepts like prime numbers. This was an amazing achievement. One that depended on a successful economy and civilisation. Again - with a different religion.

This was have eventually happened in other places, but you do need a very good economy to be able to support this level of education and scholarship. There was some of this in the americas, but making a mayan calendar is a long way from Pythagorus.
Might seem odd, but having wheat, barley, sheep, cattle, goats and horses is a huge factor in being able to create advance mathematics.
The more domesticated species of plants and animals, the better the civilisation was at creating technology and arts. The religion doesn't seem to be a critical factor as many of these things happened over many thousands of years before your god became widespread in any civilisation.

Can you explain the success of europe, middle east and asia in the several thousand years prior to christianity being widespread? Does your god even play a part in that?

1st off, the 3 branches of Abrahamic religions are already troublesome enough, do you really think it’s a good idea to start religions all over the world at the same time? You’re just asking for more wars, right? ;)

Even McDonald’s and Starbucks started off one store at a time.

Lastly, differences between current world religions and relic religions of the past is that current set of world religions survived and continue to influence the world today.

If God is bogus, Christianity should also become a relic of the past as well. We’re just not quite there yet, right? :p

[Crazed_Insanity]

Im not ashamed of christianity, I just think like all other deity based religions that its fundamentally flawed and seems to be a primitive relic.
Its been a significant part of our western civilisation for a long while. But I dont see it as being the factor that made the west successful, "guns, germs and steel" gives a much better answer to that.

And I dont think "luck" is the main reason for the rise of europe. Again read that wiki - there are tangible factors. Maybe it is luck that more useful and easy to domesticate animals are found in that area. But it would only seem like luck if you start by picking europe and asking why was it so lucky? Picking the winner after the event.

Instead you realise that there will be a winner, and ask "what factors" and then see that some place must have an excess of useful factors and hence will be the leader. Then you can see that the middle east had these factors, they spread to europe and with some climate change an advantage moved from the middle east to europe. Yes this climate change was important - it does seem weird that the middle east is not as suitable as europe for growing crops, but was once "the fertile crescent".
So it wasn't luck, it was a series of factors and competition that had a series of places being the leader. But one common factor was that theses leading civilisations all had similar advantages, either innately in their geography/climate or via borrowing factors such as domesticated plants and animals, and technology such as metal working, pottery, agricultural practices. They built off each other.
Any civilisation that wasn't connected to them was left behind and had no chance of ever catching up, until they were either given the technology or more likely invaded/settled.
The USA wouldn't be any sort of significant power if europe hadn't made contact and brought wheat, horses and vast amounts of technological knowledge. That it then had attributes such as vast suitable land and mineral resources helped it. But these were only put to their best use with the influx of european civilisation.
Then again maybe "just god" - but that's not really much of an argument is it? Doesn't explain why some extremely christian countries aren't as successful.

What do you mean by extreme and which such nation is that extreme and yet unsuccessful?

Amish? Assuming that they are a nation… :p

[Tom Servo]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FAna62_XIBUkDxe?format=jpg&name=medium

[Dicknose]

If God is bogus, Christianity should also become a relic of the past as well. We’re just not quite there yet, right? :p

But if god was real then why hasn't he fixed the problem of so many religions?
Why isn't it just one?

Gosh its almost like he doesn't actually exist!

[Dicknose]

What do you mean by extreme and which such nation is that extreme and yet unsuccessful?


There are plenty of countries with high percentage of christians that are very low on scale of success.
Nigeria would be a good example.
By percentage the most christian countries also include - Papua New Guinea, Haiti and Namibia. None of which is overly prosperous.

Its almost like your "christian countries are successful" is only true if you cherry pick the data.

Or maybe they dont pray enough.

[Yw-slayer]

There's always some bullshit excuse to justify his "reasoning".

[Crazed_Insanity]

But if god was real then why hasn't he fixed the problem of so many religions?
Why isn't it just one?

Gosh its almost like he doesn't actually exist!

Because free will baby!

God isn’t the kind of God who’d mandate things to restrict your free will! However, if you make dumb choices, you will suffer consequences. For later generations as well!

Abraham made the dumb choice of having a baby with his servant girl and mistreated them, which resulted discord for generations even til modern times!

Anyway, so why free will? Because true love requires free will. In a free society, you can easily tell how many Americans love Trump/Biden. However it won’t be as easy to figure out how many love Putin/Xi.

[Crazed_Insanity]

There are plenty of countries with high percentage of christians that are very low on scale of success.
Nigeria would be a good example.
By percentage the most christian countries also include - Papua New Guinea, Haiti and Namibia. None of which is overly prosperous.

Its almost like your "christian countries are successful" is only true if you cherry pick the data.

Or maybe they dont pray enough.

It takes time dude!

When did the modern day West really take off after gospel was spread to Europe? Not including the peak of Roman period…

When did Nigeria and Papua New Guinea convert? Jesus could perform instant miracles but not always.

If you’re referring to central and South America, well, I’d say the problem might be Catholic Church. I think European recognized possible human corruption of church… such as pope interpreted Bible which ever politically convenient way he wants… that drove Europeans to want to mass produce the Bible for all to read for themselves! Yeah, as Europeans began mass production of books, no wonder the society flourished…

Had Catholic Church really been perfect like God, surely we should be able to see super powers from central and South America.

Now, not saying Protestant churches are perfect, but being less centralized has its advantages I think. Too much concentration of power tend to corrupt humans much easily in whatever human organizations. Even Gods church is made out of corruptible human beings…

I'm sure God could still do good thru the Catholic Church; however, I think it is kinda of self evident that amongst the Christians nations, Protestant nations apparently are doing a bit better? At least nations in the 'new world'? They all started around similar time frame on brand new lands. US is the most protestant... and then Canada... and then the other nations on the American continent are predominantly Catholic... probably under human Pope's influence more than God's influence. Of course the problem with lack of centralize control is you might end up with people misinterpreting God's words themselves. I think the fact that US and Canada has more 'crazy protesting truckers' might be the result of too much such 'freedumb'. Nothing on earth is 'perfect', so we'll just have to learn to fine tune everything at a more optimum level I guess. If we're going to screw it up, I'd prefer we screw things up by giving people too much freedom.

Abraham didn’t know where he’s going, he was just following God by taking leaps of faith. Yeah, he screws up at times, after all, he’s still human. For whatever reasons, his genetic and spiritual descendants ended up billions in # just as promised by God at a time when he was still childless. It’s very possible that the story was made up after the fact by Jews and Arabs… or he just got lucky without any guns, germs nor steel…, but if there’s a God, then his luck would all of a sudden make more sense, at least to me. ;)

[Dicknose]

It takes time dude!

When did the modern day West really take off after gospel was spread to Europe? Not including the peak of Roman period…

Or the Greek or Egyptian.

Development of language, mathematics, many art forms, large cities with water and sanitation.
All with different religions, all making great advances, all being the "best" at their time.

And about time... why didn't god start this all in a few places at once? He can do that right.
Leaving it to a single group of people in a single location - wow its almost as if it was a human construction by those people.
Why doesn't omnipotent god make an effort to contact other parts of the world, why leave it many thousands of years for people to spread the word.
Would be very good evidence of a god if the same god with the same story was to come from different places. No - we get "lazy god".
Why does everything point to the "lazy god" being almost indistinguishable from "no god"?


When did Nigeria and Papua New Guinea convert? Jesus could perform instant miracles but not always.

If you’re referring to central and South America, well, I’d say the problem might be Catholic Church. I think European recognized possible human corruption of church… such as pope interpreted Bible which ever politically convenient way he wants… that drove Europeans to want to mass produce the Bible for all to read for themselves! Yeah, as Europeans began mass production of books, no wonder the society flourished…

Had Catholic Church really been perfect like God, surely we should be able to see super powers from central and South America.

Now, not saying Protestant churches are perfect, but being less centralized has its advantages I think. Too much concentration of power tend to corrupt humans much easily in whatever human organizations. Even Gods church is made out of corruptible human beings…

I'm sure God could still do good thru the Catholic Church; however, I think it is kinda of self evident that amongst the Christians nations, Protestant nations apparently are doing a bit better? At least nations in the 'new world'? They all started around similar time frame on brand new lands. US is the most protestant... and then Canada... and then the other nations on the American continent are predominantly Catholic... probably under human Pope's influence more than God's influence. Of course the problem with lack of centralize control is you might end up with people misinterpreting God's words themselves. I think the fact that US and Canada has more 'crazy protesting truckers' might be the result of too much such 'freedumb'. Nothing on earth is 'perfect', so we'll just have to learn to fine tune everything at a more optimum level I guess. If we're going to screw it up, I'd prefer we screw things up by giving people too much freedom.

Abraham didn’t know where he’s going, he was just following God by taking leaps of faith. Yeah, he screws up at times, after all, he’s still human. For whatever reasons, his genetic and spiritual descendants ended up billions in # just as promised by God at a time when he was still childless. It’s very possible that the story was made up after the fact by Jews and Arabs… or he just got lucky without any guns, germs nor steel…, but if there’s a God, then his luck would all of a sudden make more sense, at least to me. ;)[/QUOTE]

[Crazed_Insanity]

Or the Greek or Egyptian.
But who still worships Greek or Egyptian gods?


Development of language, mathematics, many art forms, large cities with water and sanitation.
All with different religions, all making great advances, all being the "best" at their time.
I never said humanity requires religion in order to make progress. It’s clear that people can still be quite smart and be successful without any religious beliefs. The thing I’m looking for is whether this religious influence caused any significant and most importantly lasting impacts! Greeks and Egyptians’ achievements have compelling arguments for their gods, but then those gods obviously couldn’t sustain themselves… Jesus may end up in the same position, but Jesus isn’t quite there yet, right?


And about time... why didn't god start this all in a few places at once? He can do that right.
Yes. However, as you can clearly see, the branches of Abrahamic religions that came out of the same dude are already out to kill each other, what do you think will happen as religions of the same God started in various locations at the same time? Will people or various locations really believe they met the same God?

Also, how do we know God perhaps did try to start it at various locations, but none were as stupidly faithful enough to follow God all the way. Remember, God asked Abraham to sacrifice his one and only son! I’m not sure I’d have as much faith as Abraham. If God had asked me to do that, there’s probably 100% chance I’ll tell him the same thing the Ukrainians told Russians!

Just imagine McDonalds opening up their global chain all over the world with nothing but verbal instructions. Telling people how to farm and prepare their burgers and how to build restaurants. How many McDonald’s do you think you will see today? ;)

I think the main problem would be unfaithful people either just refuse to listen or eventually corrupt God’s instructions. That’s why it’s important to write things down… at least the Dead Sea scroll confirmed the accuracy of Gods words passed down for thousands of years…


Leaving it to a single group of people in a single location - wow its almost as if it was a human construction by those people.
Why doesn't omnipotent god make an effort to contact other parts of the world, why leave it many thousands of years for people to spread the word.
Would be very good evidence of a god if the same god with the same story was to come from different places. No - we get "lazy god".
Why does everything point to the "lazy god" being almost indistinguishable from "no god"?

Lastly, if Bible is accurate, there’s really no need to start a global religion when there was only Adam and Eve, or Noah’s family…

Abraham came after them. You see, everyone should’ve known about God who created the heaven and the earth and who flooded the world, but obviously the subsequent generations either forgotten or didn’t care, except Abraham. Should God just flex His muscles every so often like Putin to make sure people remember who’s the boss?

Well, too bad God isn’t like that. He wants people to truly love Him and He doesn’t want to have to sacrifice Jesus every so often just to help people remember. Believe or not believe, it’ll be entirely up to us.

I can’t speak for other cultures, at least the Chinese seem to be very fond of the ‘serpent’. Yeah, our dragon isn’t like Europeans, which look like dinosaurs with wings. Our flying dragons look just like snake with 4 legs, but we just don’t see them any more. Apparently Chinese people probably saw the serpent as the good guy… as Morpheus helped Neo opened his eyes? ;)

Also, Chinese emperors are called son of gods and they would sacrifice on an idol-less altar to a god we called ‘Shang-di’. ‘Shang’ is up or upper. ‘Di’ means ruler. Interestingly Jews also have a name for God Almighty called El Shaddai. The pronunciation even sounds similar. Traditionally Chinese don’t really worship and idols except their ancestors. Jews also were very meticulous with their ancestors… Bible recorded the entire line from Adam to Jesus!

It’s also interesting that we can see hints that n the Chinese characters themselves! The word for ship is made up of ark, eight, and people. The word righteous is made up lamb stuck on top of the word me! My Christian take on that would be allowing the lamb of God to be lord over me is righteousness! Also the Chinese word come is made up of a cross with a person in the center and 2 more people on the sides. Kinda look like Christ’s crucifixion scene… yeah, that was God’s ultimate invite for all on earth to come to His kingdom.

Anyway, I may just be seeing these things thru my Christian color lenses, surely YW would probably disagree. However, point is I think God probably has made himself known to everyone already, but people has the free will to ignore him if we want. I’d not want a God like Putin.

[Dicknose]

But who still worships Greek or Egyptian gods?

Not the point....(or actually even an argument in favour of no true gods ever)
they had great success without your god.





I never said humanity requires religion in order to make progress. It’s clear that people can still be quite smart and be successful without any religious beliefs. The thing I’m looking for is whether this religious influence caused any significant and most importantly lasting impacts! Greeks and Egyptians’ achievements have compelling arguments for their gods, but then those gods obviously couldn’t sustain themselves… Jesus may end up in the same position, but Jesus isn’t quite there yet, right?

Their success and achievements are still important today, they have been incorporated into newer societies. Mathematics, democracy, art and literature etc.
That their religions were temporary is an argument in favour of religion succeeding because of the civilisation, not the other way around.



Yes. However, as you can clearly see, the branches of Abrahamic religions that came out of the same dude are already out to kill each other, what do you think will happen as religions of the same God started in various locations at the same time? Will people or various locations really believe they met the same God?

Its more the point that a god could (and you would expect they would) let everyone know, not just a tiny group.



at least the Dead Sea scroll confirmed the accuracy of Gods words passed down for thousands of years…

Someones words
Old doesn't mean true.



Lastly, if Bible is accurate, there’s really no need to start a global religion when there was only Adam and Eve, or Noah’s family…

Yeah really... do you really believe that Noahs ark is a true story?? Everyone is descendants of Noah's family?
The Australian aboriginals have been here for 60k years - that's well before the Noah thing happened.

Heck it seems the date of this flood was about 2300BCE
Thats 300 years AFTER the Great Pyramid.
And a mere 50 thousand years after Australia was settled. So did the flood wipeout the whole planet? Are aboriginals descendant from Noah?
Its a cute story (Gilgamesh) but it disagrees with the history of the rest of the world. Heck it doesn't even seem to agree with the history of the middle east.

[JoeW]

I’m really surprised you guys give Billi this much print time.

I appreciate it though. It’s more entertaining to just skip his posts and read everyone else’s replies :)

[2ndMoparMan]

Shame AronRa isn't a part of this fourm.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Not the point....(or actually even an argument in favour of no true gods ever)
they had great success without your god.


That is the point. God of Abraham seemingly had nothing compared to Egyptian gods…, but look at the situation now! It should be clear which God endured the test of time?




Their success and achievements are still important today, they have been incorporated into newer societies. Mathematics, democracy, art and literature etc.
That their religions were temporary is an argument in favour of religion succeeding because of the civilisation, not the other way around.
Huh? So you attribute the success of the West to Egyptians and Greeks believed in their original gods? Jesus had much less influence on the Western worlds today?

Anyway, you have to admit Christianity is probably one of the few world religions that survived and thrive beyond its founding place. I'm only aware of Islam spreading as well as Buddhism thriving outside of India in other civilizations. Are there any other ancient gods that made the 'jump' and were able to 'infect' other, non-native civilizations? BTW, Buddhas never self proclaimed to be gods at all... so technically buddhism is probably not really a religion? Perhaps just a way of life or path to enlightenment?



Its more the point that a god could (and you would expect they would) let everyone know, not just a tiny group.
I’d hardly call the Jews, Christians and Muslims of the current day world as a tiny group. :p Even just the Christians, you can’t really say we’re now a tiny group?



Someones words
Old doesn't mean true.
Dead Sea scroll can at least confirm the same words were passed down and not corrupted along the way. How true? Yeah, that of course cannot be scientifically confirmed, but it sure feel pretty true. I behave very much like Adam and Eve, when told to not do something, that’ll usually end up causing me to want to do that even more! :p Also, yes, both Greek/Egyptian gods can be old, but oldness is just one critical criteria. God needs to be at the very beginning. I don't think He needs to be global, but He needs to be around in the beginning. The 2nd criteria is He has to demonstrate that He has never left. Any religion that's no longer relevant today, we can probably safely archive them away as historical relic. If a God no longer has any influence on this world, He might as well just not exist.



Yeah really... do you really believe that Noahs ark is a true story?? Everyone is descendants of Noah's family?
The Australian aboriginals have been here for 60k years - that's well before the Noah thing happened.

As for Noah’s story, that also felt true. As human race today continue to destroy the planet and ignoring the impacts they’re making, don’t you just feel like flooding the world and fix the problem that way?

Also, the point is humanity must’ve evolved from a single source, not independently off of each continent, right? If each race all independently evolve from different geographical locations, then each of those race would be a different species, right?

If man were created by God starting with A&E, then there’s be no need to start his religion globally. Over the generations, people just do their own thing and not believe their parents or would just forget about God. Abraham was just somebody as naive as Noah who’d actually believe when most people were already smart enough to figure out that it’s impossible to have a global flood…


Heck it seems the date of this flood was about 2300BCE
Thats 300 years AFTER the Great Pyramid.
And a mere 50 thousand years after Australia was settled. So did the flood wipeout the whole planet? Are aboriginals descendant from Noah?
That explains why pyramids are in ruins now? :p


Its a cute story (Gilgamesh) but it disagrees with the history of the rest of the world. Heck it doesn't even seem to agree with the history of the middle east.
I didn’t know how God could create everything in 6 days when the universe appears to be 14 billion years old originally. However, thanks to Einstein’s general relativity and the knowledge that our universe is expanding… now it is actually possible to explain how the universe could both be 6 days old and 14 billion years old at the same time, depending on where your reference frame is!

Anyway, it may be difficult to know for sure whether if Bible is literal or just symbolic. Maybe even Jesus himself wasn’t literal, but just a very moving hero myth. Even if that is the real truth, can you explain why Christian’s are ignorant for believing the golden rule? To call to love even your enemies!

Are you really trying to tell me it’s because of Christ that we end up with people like Hitler and Putin? If God of Abraham never happened, the world would be a much better place?

[Crazed_Insanity]

I’m really surprised you guys give Billi this much print time.

I appreciate it though. It’s more entertaining to just skip his posts and read everyone else’s replies :)

There’s usually no one else, just DN and Swervo and occasionally YW.

Nice to see you here! ;)

The end is near dude! However, know that Jesus loves you! :)

[Yw-slayer]

I’m really surprised you guys give Billi this much print time.

I appreciate it though. It’s more entertaining to just skip his posts and read everyone else’s replies :)

It's part of our plan to harness his energy to mine crypto and get PROFIT

[Crazed_Insanity]

I’m almost willing to bet Putin has most of his wealth in crypto… so I refuse to utilize this power of love from God for such purposes!

One of these days, this power of love from God will touch you guys and you guys will be much better spreader of the Gospel than me! ;)

[Tom Servo]

Reported for making threats

[JoeW]

LMAO

[Crazed_Insanity]

What threats?

[Tom Servo]

It's never funny if you have to explain the joke :(

[Dicknose]

That is the point. God of Abraham seemingly had nothing compared to Egyptian gods…, but look at the situation now! It should be clear which God endured the test of time?

You started with the logic of correct god = success.
Now that's debunked you move back to correct god = test of time
Of cause that's much harder to confirm, especially as time is open ended.




Huh? So you attribute the success of the West to Egyptians and Greeks believed in their original gods? Jesus had much less influence on the Western worlds today?

I dont attribute their success to their religion, Im saying the wests success has been for a long while, was due to factors that were not religion.
That a given religion has dominated in a later period isn't a sign that religion has caused the success, since the success was been happening well before that.



Anyway, you have to admit Christianity is probably one of the few world religions that survived and thrive beyond its founding place.

Agree that christianity and islam have both been very successful, have spread and survived.
Doesn't say it caused success or that the religion is correct. Considering that they (and Judaism) disagree, at most only 1 of them can be correct. Also possible all abrahamic religions are wrong.



God needs to be at the very beginning. I don't think He needs to be global, but He needs to be around in the beginning. The 2nd criteria is He has to demonstrate that He has never left. Any religion that's no longer relevant today, we can probably safely archive them away as historical relic. If a God no longer has any influence on this world, He might as well just not exist.

There is no evidence that god was around at the beginning. He certainly arrived after Australia was settled. I guess its hard to make up a story that matches the facts when you didn't know there were people in Australia and you were relatively simple tribes people. And wow - the descriptions of how the world and people came to be look just like what you would expect from people who are guessing. Doesn't look at all like someone with knowledge from an all knowing god.

Also you said before that a god could be ignored - then its possible the correct deity could be an old god who has been ignored.

The thing that impresses me most about any god - their amazing ability to remain hidden and mysterious, requiring faith. All while claiming to be powerful (even all powerful). So they could have contacted all early groups of humans. They could come and say hi to everyone. They could make a definitive show of their existence. But no - must have faith. Their holy words, while sometimes morally inspiring, never seem to show any knowledge that would stand out as coming from the being that was there and created everything. The Genesis story seems no more likely or accurate than many other religions. Not a single bit jumps out as divine knowledge.



Also, the point is humanity must’ve evolved from a single source, not independently off of each continent, right? If each race all independently evolve from different geographical locations, then each of those race would be a different species, right?

Well there is evidence that we were several species in different places, then multiple wave of homo sapiens spread out of Africa, competed and even bred with other homo species.
Evolution gives a much much better explanation for humans than divine creation.



If man were created by God starting with A&E, then there’s be no need to start his religion globally. Over the generations, people just do their own thing and not believe their parents or would just forget about God. Abraham was just somebody as naive as Noah who’d actually believe when most people were already smart enough to figure out that it’s impossible to have a global flood…

If the flood is true, then Noah would be the most recent "choke point", with all humans coming from his group.
So was this flood before the aborigines came to Australia?

But seriously - the adam and eve story doesn't match known science by a long way. We have fossil evidence of earlier homo species, we have evidence of other homo species at the same as modern humans eg neanderthal, Denisovans.

Even many christians will admit that Genesis is a story and isn't meant to be a factual description. Mostly because its




I didn’t know how God could create everything in 6 days when the universe appears to be 14 billion years old originally. However, thanks to Einstein’s general relativity and the knowledge that our universe is expanding… now it is actually possible to explain how the universe could both be 6 days old and 14 billion years old at the same time, depending on where your reference frame is!

Yeah yeah - we discussed how this trick could be used to prove any number of days.
The genesis story gets so many things out of order and is extremely earth centric. Hmm just like the common world view when it was written. Wow almost like a person made it up.



Anyway, it may be difficult to know for sure whether if Bible is literal or just symbolic.

Not difficult....



Are you really trying to tell me it’s because of Christ that we end up with people like Hitler and Putin? If God of Abraham never happened, the world would be a much better place?
Haven't even hinted at that here.
Just saying
- success is clearly not determined by a single religion
- there has always been a dominant religion in successful civilisations that have advanced
- that longevity is not an indicator of truth of a religion (the correct one could be ignored by everyone, one that's popular now might not be in the future)
- no ancient religion has ever made statements (predictions) that have shown to be amazingly enlightened. none have claimed a vast universe where the Earth is relatively young (about 1/3 the age of the universe)
- there is no evidence for adam and eve, but a vast amount of evidence for evolution and even multiple lines of homo species surviving to be contemporaries of homo sapiens
- there is no evidence for a global flood, the vast difference is flora and fauna around the world make this idea fanciful. How did the marsupials decide to go to Australia and none stayed in Eurasia?
- australia was settled and isolated before the period claimed by abrahamic scholars for when Noah survived the flood

You might say the bible could be literal, but it can't. Not without burying your head in the sand and ignoring everything you see around you. Noahs ark at best might describe how a small group survived a local disaster with their domestic animals. To ramp it up to be global and describe all plants and animals... How many species of ants did he take?? Noah took an echidna, but no european ever remembered them. Ditto the platypus.
Again its a cute story, but it doesn't come close to being able to describe the world. Its as if the person who wrote it had no idea that there was even a rest of the world.

Creationism and believing in Noah as an actual event disagrees with just about every bit of scientific knowledge, across so many disciplines. Basically its saying "science is wrong because magic"

[Crazed_Insanity]

Okay, I’m just gonna stop quoting and just respond in general…

I think often times we humans get too hung up on certain false dichotomies. Those conservative pro-lifers obviously love to be able to choose to not wear masks and avoid vaccines. Similarly most prochoicers obviously want to save more lives by wearing masks and take up vaccines… similarly, I don’t think we must either pick creationism or science only. Scientists do not know it all yet. Like I said, before knowing relativity and expanding universe, there’s be no way to reconcile 6 days and 14 billion years. However, armed with such knowledge, it is now possible to see how both could be true.

Such paradoxical dualities do exist, right? Such as photons being both like waves and particles.

I think modern humans have a tendency to be way too rational. Emphasize only on their conscious minds while ignoring the subconscious needs. A lot of times we can’t even explain our own peculiar behaviors stemming from the subconscious. Rational minds would just brush it off and ignore it… modern humans don’t have anymore ‘demons’ to fight, but we still suffer from mental issues like addictions or depressions…

Another part of us that’s not really rational would be music. Attending concerts is kinda like a religious experience! Have you rationally thought about why you like to listen to this music? Have you scientifically figured out the purpose of music and attending concerts?

Anyway, my thinking is that creation and evolution can both happen at the same time as well. We can’t explain luck just as we can’t explain God.

All I know is that as an engineer, I’ve never lucked out and accidentally create something by chance. Are we really that lucky that our universe expanded at just the right rate and earth stayed at just the right distance away from the sun and humanity just happened to evolved and the West just happened to believe in Christ equipped with sufficient guns germs and steels… dang! We’re so lucky!

What is really the difference between because luck and because God? Same difference except we don’t have to worship Lady Luck and we can just enjoy our lives however we want without any regard as to what does the Creator want?

Creator wants us to freely love Him and love one another.

I still believe the West has listened to Christ the most and it’s because of that that the West has been doing comparatively better than other nations. Any other group of folks who will love God and love one another even more, surely unbelievable amount of luck will come to such nation and will end up make the Western world looking like North Korea!

If only we can have a time machine so that we can go back and check the accuracy of Bible and HisStory.

[JoeW]

Damn you guys must just love typing these words to yourselves because you aren’t convincing each other :)

[Crazed_Insanity]

I love DN and DN loves me. We don’t really love words that much…

Anyway, you want to join and try out a 3some?

[Tom Servo]

Reported for causing severe nausea.

[JoeW]

Again with jokes…maybe you should explain this one too :)

[Crazed_Insanity]

DN, after reading some of Carl Jung's stuffs and some more internal reflection, perhaps we should step back a bit and 1st talk about the importance of religions in general? Yeah, forget about Christianity for now and include all religions past or present and try figure out if mankind really need to have religious beliefs? Or is it even beneficial for mankind to have religious beliefs? If we can reach a conclusion that men do not need religious beliefs, then we can probably safely toss Christianity out along with all other religions?

1st off, I think tales of tribal politics, world religions, and amazing sexual conquests are probably as old as time itself, right? ;) Sure, as technology advances, perhaps we could also give up politics and sex because we also don't really need those things annoying us? Borgs won't have any political issues nor will they have any reproductive problems. No need to waste time and resources on those things. Even the federation of Gene Roddenberry's original vision probably theoretically won't have anymore political problems... and if Kirk and Riker still want sex for fun, that's cool, but there's really no more need to have real sex just to reproduce. It'll probably be consider backwards and icky to actually have physical sex in the future? However which way we 'evolve', as technology advances, it appears to me that the trajectory is to do away with the age old inefficiencies that we encounter with politics, religions and sex, right?

Science/tech/logic/reason are all wonderful things and I have nothing against them, but I'm just not sure if they can completely replace what's been done in the past. I think that's the main problem/danger 'modern man' may face.

Let's just take food as example. Science and tech certainly have made great advances regarding producing and feeding billions of us around the world. This is truly amazing achievement..., but is humanity on average really healthier than ever before? Now people are trying to go back to organic, nonGMO, locally grown food as our ancestors have done in the past.

At least for me or my conversion, it's kind of the same. If I can afford it, I want to buy more traditional spiritual foods for my soul whenever possible.

Besides actual food, I do believe we also need to feed ourselves spiritual food. It's little wonder to me why more and more are suffering from depressions/anxieties/addictions... of course, I'm can't say religions of the past resulted in no or even lower depressions/anxieties/addiction levels... since we have no data to compare to the past... However, if we take the current war for example, pretty sure religion was not the reason why Putin invaded. So, at least we can conclude that mankind itself is pretty sucky with or without religions?

[Dicknose]

I dont think we need religion. The modern world works quite well as secular with a decent percentage of atheists.

I do think that there is a natural predisposition to religion. It does seem to be universal that cultures ended up with religions, many based on deities or powerful mythical creatures. Successful religions blend explanation for how things work/came to be, morality and social cohesion.
As intelligent creatures who need to cooperate its easy to see that religion can serve a good purpose. It gives purpose, unity, comfort and encourages altruism.
But it can also be hijacked by leaders or ruling elite and it can be harmful to people who fall on the wrong side of its morals. In many cultures the religion has effectively been non optional - follow it or else.

I just think we have moved past the need for it. It adds zero value to explaining the world we see, science does that very well. Explaining thunder by Thor or humans by Creationism adds nothing to our understanding and would actually impede progress.
The morality side is also becoming a huge issue. Rights for women (not just reproductive, but arguing that women should be subservient to men), gays and sexual rights in general. Saying "but my god says so" is not an argument to compel anyone else to live accord to your rules.
Other aspects such as social interaction and peoples spiritual needs - yes it still plays a good role. But this is not for everyone. Some people need a spirituality, many find it in ways that are not considered religion. For others its not something they feel a need to have.

And agreed, humans can suck pretty bad without religion. It doesn't cause all ills. It does seem to amplify some and I dont think it works well when its tied to politics and laws.

I have nothing against most religions. I dont think they should be forced on people, either directly or via laws. I think there is way too much christianity being pushed in our society, to the detriment of people of other religions or no religion.
I would be strongly opposed to banning religion or even interfering with religious practices that dont hurt others. eg banning hijabs or other religious clothing.
But any discussion of morality or laws should be done without reference to religion. If your argument is "my religion/god says" then that's an issue for your religious group, not anyone else.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Yeah, I think it's obvious that not everyone needs religion to be functional, productive and even successfully nowadays.

Our generally accepted 'freedom of religion' laws should also protect people from persecutions. Naturally we shouldn't pass laws based on 'because God said so', but since we are a democracy, our laws may still be influence by whatever majority of our population believe... or whatever rich people believe... Point is, I'm sure nobody would propose a bill in congress because of God only! ;)

As for discussions or morality, I don't see why we must not reference the Bible at all. Everyone will have his own point of view in such discussions, so I don't understand why we can't use bible's opinion?

Anyway, yes, it's clear that religions could also amplify the ills of humanity, but likewise, it could also amplify the good of humanity. So worst case scenario is that religious belief itself is 'neutral'. It all depends on what's in the hearts of dictators, kings, or whoever the decision maker finally decide to do. I just think it's unfair to blame all the bad things on religion, yet most people here don't really wish to acknowledge the good things religions have brought forth.

Lastly, the point I'm trying to make is that religions tend to give more meaning to people's lives. When God dies, modern men could often end up more nihilistic, which can definitely be bad for social cohesion. Carl Jung was saying that what we called civilized consciousness has steadily separated itself from the basic instincts. But these instincts are still there! They simply lost contact with our consciousness and are thus forced to assert themselves in an indirect fashion. In psychological terms, this may be by means of physical symptoms such as neurosis, or by some unaccountable moods, unexpected forgetfulness or mistakes in speech... We all like to believe we're the master of our own soul. However, as long as we're unable to control our own moods and emotions, we are certainly not. Modern men protect themselves against seeing this split state by compartmentalize it or perhaps even suppressing it. However, if not dealt with appropriately, sooner or later, this shadow within us will blow up and cause issues. Besides on an individual level, we do that in the world we live in as well! Remember the Berlin wall? That's how we compartmentalize worlds. West vs East. Putin kinda represent the shadow of the world... and now he's blowing up!

Anyway, I really believe humanity's greatest achievements won't be our buildings or rockets or computers...

“Faith, hope, love, and insight are the highest achievements of human effort, and they are found given by experience.”

It'll be hard to have such experiences without religion.

[Dicknose]

Our generally accepted 'freedom of religion' laws should also protect people from persecutions. Naturally we shouldn't pass laws based on 'because God said so', but since we are a democracy, our laws may still be influence by whatever majority of our population believe... or whatever rich people believe... Point is, I'm sure nobody would propose a bill in congress because of God only! ;)

Really? I think plenty of people try that, both here and in the USA.

And this is where democracy can suck - if enough people want that could enforce a religion. I think that is just wrong. Its also an issue because people think they should vote for what they believe is best for them, rather than what is best for everyone. Personally I think that there is a big overlap between those who believe in a religion and also believe that it should be law because their god told them its true, so therefore must be enforced for everyone. Those people are shitty people who fail the golden rule.



As for discussions or morality, I don't see why we must not reference the Bible at all.

Not saying you can't have the same opinion as the bible, but if you can't justify it without the bible or god says so - then its a worthless opinion to anyone who doesn't follow your religion.
If you are expecting a discussion on morality to imply how people should act (or be punished if they dont) then your arguments should be free of religion.
My god saying "kill christians" shouldn't be an argument to make that legal (or even compulsory!)

If you want to use the bible, then it should only apply to those who accept that faith. Otherwise Id expect you accept arguments from the Satanic Bible. After all your god made that guy, why is satans opinion any less valid a person?



I just think it's unfair to blame all the bad things on religion, yet most people here don't really wish to acknowledge the good things religions have brought forth.

Like much of human history - the bad things are easier to see and be affected by.



Lastly, the point I'm trying to make is that religions tend to give more meaning to people's lives.

That is not a good argument for any given religion being true. Heck or even for a given religion to be positive.
And its also "some people", not all people. Some dont need religion. For some people religion is a bad influence.



Modern men protect themselves against seeing this split state by compartmentalize it or perhaps even suppressing it.

Thats an argument for awareness and mental health. Religion is not the only way to deal with it. And in some cases it can be a bad way to handle issues.



“Faith, hope, love, and insight are the highest achievements of human effort, and they are found given by experience.”

It'll be hard to have such experiences without religion.
Haaaa - of cause you can have all of those without religion!
Thats your bias that you feel that for you these result from religion.

This is what shits me about some religious people... those who think that you can only have morality or be able to experience love, hope etc if you are religious. These people are so deluded and wrapped up in their own ignorance. They have been told "this is the only truth, the only way" that they assume everyone else is wrong and missing out. They usually think they are good people, often they are terrible people trying to force their religion on others or judging them poorly for not believing the same. Asking "how can you have morality without god?". I ask "what you happen to your morality if you lost your faith?". Scary that these people only want to be good to go to heaven rather than hell. Its like they lack any basic moral compass and need someone to force one on them by reward/punishment.

moved this out of order...


Anyway, I really believe humanity's greatest achievements won't be our buildings or rockets or computers...

Its interesting when you look at peoples achievements, people who are famous and really made a positive impact on the world. Most of them would say their greatest achievement is their kids or marriage or something. Thats great, but that is good for you and your family, it wasn't what helped the world. Our civilisation isn't better because Einstein loved someone. Ditto Mozart. Or Pasteur.

So saying "love is our greatest achievement" puts us no different to stone age man. Have we not done a lot to make us better, our lives safer, longer, more enriched. We have learnt so much, from subatomic particles to a universe teaming with galaxies. These are all achievements that make our civilisations better.
Its good that we dont lose our humanity, our love for one another - but its just the basic foundation of us as social creatures. Its not so much an achievement as it is a starting point.
Our achievements are mathematics, technology, leaving the planet and Megadeths "Rust in Peace"

[Crazed_Insanity]

Really? I think plenty of people try that, both here and in the USA.

And this is where democracy can suck - if enough people want that could enforce a religion. I think that is just wrong. Its also an issue because people think they should vote for what they believe is best for them, rather than what is best for everyone. Personally I think that there is a big overlap between those who believe in a religion and also believe that it should be law because their god told them its true, so therefore must be enforced for everyone. Those people are shitty people who fail the golden rule.

Yes, plenty of people may have tried that and use God's laws to justify their own hatred, but just like wars, it's not really God's fault... that's just the shortcoming of democracies and people's hearts in wrong places. People all want different things and will use whatever means necessary to get the votes they need. Point is I don't think it's possible to pass laws that forcibly mandate people converting to a particular religion, right? That should not happen in US nor Australia.



Not saying you can't have the same opinion as the bible, but if you can't justify it without the bible or god says so - then its a worthless opinion to anyone who doesn't follow your religion.
If you are expecting a discussion on morality to imply how people should act (or be punished if they dont) then your arguments should be free of religion.
My god saying "kill christians" shouldn't be an argument to make that legal (or even compulsory!)

If you want to use the bible, then it should only apply to those who accept that faith. Otherwise Id expect you accept arguments from the Satanic Bible. After all your god made that guy, why is satans opinion any less valid a person?
I think a lot of times Jesus does explain things... and never said, 'BECAUSE I SAID SO!'

Anyway, generally I do agree with what you're saying here.



Like much of human history - the bad things are easier to see and be affected by.
Naturally. This is why we also should make the effort to also try to look and count our blessings as well with our own lives. It's also clear the West has done a lot of evils around the world, but then I could also see a lot of blessings they received. From a Buddhist's point of view, it doesn't quite make Karma-sense. However, from a Christian perspective, then it makes more sense.



That is not a good argument for any given religion being true. Heck or even for a given religion to be positive.
And its also "some people", not all people. Some dont need religion. For some people religion is a bad influence.
Not using it as an argument for being true, but as an argument for being more effective, like a vaccines. I think most world religions would agree living in this world is mostly suffering caused primarily by humanity's own conditions. So assuming this 'condition' is viral like Covid, then religions are probably like vaccines that should help people get better, not worse. Yes, some people believe they don't need the vaccines and are pissed that governments try to mandate that on them. Another thing about this universal human condition is as you stated earlier that humanity tend to have this predisposition for religion for some reason. Christians call it a God shaped hole in our hearts. If we don't fill it with God, people tend to fill it with some other things. What do you think most people fill that hole with? Do you believe most folks are able to successfully ignore this predisposition?



Thats an argument for awareness and mental health. Religion is not the only way to deal with it. And in some cases it can be a bad way to handle issues.
I'm beginning to think psychology is probably the only form of 'science' able to bridge the gap between science and religion. Unless physicists make more revolutionary discoveries?

Religions had been 'evolving' with humanity from the very beginning for some odd reason. Are we pretty sure that religions are like our appendices? Totally useless now? If so, that predisposition should be gone as well. People should be able to find their lives more meaningful without religion. Do you really think most people find their lives meaningful today?



Haaaa - of cause you can have all of those without religion!
Thats your bias that you feel that for you these result from religion.
Can you explain how you can have faith without religion? Based on what are you hopeful? Yes, humanity could love and marry each other but half of us would end up in divorces as well... and those who didn't divorce may not be stuck in a happy marriage you know. Even for Christians couples! Personally, I don't know how anyone could have faith, hope and love without a God. Look at our democracies and authoritarian regimes... and our ability to pollute the world and fight climate change... I don't really have much faith nor hope. It's also very very hard for me to love Putin, Xi or those crazy truck drivers. But since Jesus asked me to, I'm forcing myself to do it. ;)


This is what shits me about some religious people... those who think that you can only have morality or be able to experience love, hope etc if you are religious. These people are so deluded and wrapped up in their own ignorance. They have been told "this is the only truth, the only way" that they assume everyone else is wrong and missing out. They usually think they are good people, often they are terrible people trying to force their religion on others or judging them poorly for not believing the same. Asking "how can you have morality without god?". I ask "what you happen to your morality if you lost your faith?". Scary that these people only want to be good to go to heaven rather than hell. Its like they lack any basic moral compass and need someone to force one on them by reward/punishment.
Like I said, religion/gospel is like vaccines that could help make us better. Some 'Christians' probably didn't even receive, by faith, their doses. However, let's focus on those real christians for now... if they no longer have their vaccines, surely they'd also be in trouble. Just like Covid, symptoms may vary. Some my have no symptoms, some mild and some dead. Spreading the gospel is kinda like spreading the vaccines around; however, without any mandates(freedom of religion). People can choose to whether accept or not. It is kinda funny conservative christians in US are probably more likely to be anti-masks and anti-vaccines... but anyway, hope you can relate the sentiment of why christians want to spread the gospel. Just as vaccines are good news for us during a pandemic.


Its interesting when you look at peoples achievements, people who are famous and really made a positive impact on the world. Most of them would say their greatest achievement is their kids or marriage or something. Thats great, but that is good for you and your family, it wasn't what helped the world. Our civilisation isn't better because Einstein loved someone. Ditto Mozart. Or Pasteur.

So saying "love is our greatest achievement" puts us no different to stone age man. Have we not done a lot to make us better, our lives safer, longer, more enriched. We have learnt so much, from subatomic particles to a universe teaming with galaxies. These are all achievements that make our civilisations better.
Its good that we dont lose our humanity, our love for one another - but its just the basic foundation of us as social creatures. Its not so much an achievement as it is a starting point.
Our achievements are mathematics, technology, leaving the planet and Megadeths "Rust in Peace"
Yes, our civilization is definitely built on top of these great achievements. Since humanity isn't immortal, we build on it step by step, generation by generation collectively.

However, individually, on our death bed, will we really die happy knowing all the achievements that we've done?

What is really more meaningful for us? What's the point of living?

We have witness the collapse and disappearance of past great ancient civilizations. No reason to believe our civilization won't cease to exist. Putin could wipe it out at any moment actually. Then nobody will know Einstein or Mozart or whatever.

Some might survive, but then they'll start a brand new civilization... and perhaps a brand new religion?

[Dicknose]

that's just the shortcoming of democracies and people's hearts in wrong places. People all want different things and will use whatever means necessary to get the votes they need. Point is I don't think it's possible to pass laws that forcibly mandate people converting to a particular religion, right? That should not happen in US nor Australia.

Its not about converting... its about enforcing their religious beliefs as laws. Doesn't make me a christian, but means I have to live like one or be punished.




then religions are probably like vaccines that should help people get better, not worse.

Id disagree. I dont think they make things better. If you want a religion then fine, but you seem to assume its needed for everyone.



I'm beginning to think psychology is probably the only form of 'science' able to bridge the gap between science and religion. Unless physicists make more revolutionary discoveries?

Well since I think religion is man made and an emergent property of how our brain works, then yes I think psychology is the only way to study it.
Otherwise pretty much every other branch of science seems to push god into every small holes where he hides. Evolution, archeology, physics and more show that the old testament is not a good description of what we see around us.




Religions had been 'evolving' with humanity from the very beginning for some odd reason. Are we pretty sure that religions are like our appendices? Totally useless now? If so, that predisposition should be gone as well. People should be able to find their lives more meaningful without religion. Do you really think most people find their lives meaningful today?

Clearly the predisposition hasn't gone, actually Im not sure it would go even in 1000 more generations.
Some of the purpose of religion to explain how things work and came to be - that's gone, science has done a much better job.
But the spiritual aspects are still needed by some people. The social aspects can also be important to people eg the rise of things like Hillsong.
So I dont think religion is not needed anymore, clearly it is important to many people. I can see that percentage dropping. And certainly its dead as far as being authority on things that science now cover.



Personally, I don't know how anyone could have faith, hope and love without a God

You really think people can't have hope, faith, love without believing in a god???
Thats just sad.
I can see if religious people think like this that they have tied themselves so much to this belief that they can't afford to give it up.

When you were Buddhist, did you love, have faith, hope?



Like I said, religion/gospel is like vaccines that could help make us better.

Or a virus that makes you compliant.

My point wasn't about wanting to share it - but about assuming those without their religious belief aren't capable of things like morality or love. Seems you might fall into this case.
Is it your inability to understand that others can be different to you, that what works for you might not work for others? Or is this a religious blindness because your religion has convinced you of this?




Yes, our civilization is definitely built on top of these great achievements. Since humanity isn't immortal, we build on it step by step, generation by generation collectively.

However, individually, on our death bed, will we really die happy knowing all the achievements that we've done?

What is really more meaningful for us? What's the point of living?

Some people say that the meaning of life is to make others happy (including those who come after us). So if you helped make society better, then you have had a good life.



We have witness the collapse and disappearance of past great ancient civilizations. No reason to believe our civilization won't cease to exist. Putin could wipe it out at any moment actually. Then nobody will know Einstein or Mozart or whatever.

Some might survive, but then they'll start a brand new civilization... and perhaps a brand new religion?
Unlikely we will lose all of what's gone before. We are at a stage where much of our creative output could become immortal. Books, movies, music - these could last as long as humans. Do you think Homer expected his Iliad and Odyssey to be read almost 3000 years later?? Will people still listen to the Beatles in another thousand years?

As for religion, new ones spring up now and then.
I expect the next huge shakeup to happen when we discover life in other parts of the galaxy. It will be a huge change to our "world view". Even if its just microbial life.
But more so if we find intelligent life, that will have a major impact on religion. Will the aliens have religion? I find it extremely unlikely they would have the same religion - seeing as no earthly religion managed to seed itself in different parts of the world, would be amazing if it was started Independently in other parts of the galaxy! This could end religions, maybe make some people turn more fundamental or start new religions.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Its not about converting... its about enforcing their religious beliefs as laws. Doesn't make me a christian, but means I have to live like one or be punished.

Id disagree. I dont think they make things better. If you want a religion then fine, but you seem to assume its needed for everyone.

You'll have to be more specific here. How are Australian laws making you more like a Christian. Also, you yourself said human predisposition for religion seems universal. Based on what do you think not everyone needs it?



Well since I think religion is man made and an emergent property of how our brain works, then yes I think psychology is the only way to study it.
Otherwise pretty much every other branch of science seems to push god into every small holes where he hides. Evolution, archeology, physics and more show that the old testament is not a good description of what we see around us.
Advancements made in physics could certainly help. Without knowing universe expands and Relativity, there's absolutely no way for me to reconcile 6 days and 14 billion years. However, with those discoveries, now it's actually possible! Science is in search of truth. If Jesus is really the Truth, discovering him should be inevitable. Just a matter of time. If scientists have discovered everything there is to know about our universe and found no Jesus, then I think I can safely abandon Jesus when that time comes.



Clearly the predisposition hasn't gone, actually Im not sure it would go even in 1000 more generations.
Some of the purpose of religion to explain how things work and came to be - that's gone, science has done a much better job.
But the spiritual aspects are still needed by some people. The social aspects can also be important to people eg the rise of things like Hillsong.
So I dont think religion is not needed anymore, clearly it is important to many people. I can see that percentage dropping. And certainly its dead as far as being authority on things that science now cover.
For sure as we're able to explain more and more things thru science, we don't need things as God did it anymore. However, science is still a toddler. Scientists still don't know most of our own universe or even ourselves.

# of religious people for sure isn't climbing anymore even in US. If people are continually getting better, than I'd feel safer dropping Jesus. However, is our society really getting better? The western world particularly. If we are really better than ever before, why the rising sentiment of wanting to make US great again? Western civilization is going down hill along with the dwindling # of followers of Jesus. That's my belief at least.



You really think people can't have hope, faith, love without believing in a god???
Thats just sad.
I can see if religious people think like this that they have tied themselves so much to this belief that they can't afford to give it up.

When you were Buddhist, did you love, have faith, hope?
Buddhism is only about compassion, they teach that we should abandon love so we don't need to be entangled in this suffering world. However, buddhhism did offer me faith and hope for sure.

Religions offer those things... at least the faith and hope part.

My question for you is based on what do you have faith and hope? Faith in what? Hope in what?



My point wasn't about wanting to share it - but about assuming those without their religious belief aren't capable of things like morality or love. Seems you might fall into this case.
Is it your inability to understand that others can be different to you, that what works for you might not work for others? Or is this a religious blindness because your religion has convinced you of this?
What is so different about Christian morality and secular morality? I really don't see much difference. The main difference that's hard for me is Jesus asks us to love even our enemies. That is something I would not do if I'm not a Christian.




Some people say that the meaning of life is to make others happy (including those who come after us). So if you helped make society better, then you have had a good life.
Good life is great, but is it meaningful? What is meaningful? Besides after life, if a religion offers no benefit in the here and now, then it'd be kinda pointless.



Unlikely we will lose all of what's gone before. We are at a stage where much of our creative output could become immortal. Books, movies, music - these could last as long as humans. Do you think Homer expected his Iliad and Odyssey to be read almost 3000 years later?? Will people still listen to the Beatles in another thousand years?

As for religion, new ones spring up now and then.
I expect the next huge shakeup to happen when we discover life in other parts of the galaxy. It will be a huge change to our "world view". Even if its just microbial life.
But more so if we find intelligent life, that will have a major impact on religion. Will the aliens have religion? I find it extremely unlikely they would have the same religion - seeing as no earthly religion managed to seed itself in different parts of the world, would be amazing if it was started Independently in other parts of the galaxy! This could end religions, maybe make some people turn more fundamental or start new religions.

Yes, it'll be interesting to see what kind of religions ETs have. ;)

Anyway, even all earthly religions have things in common or similar stories... I don't think I'll ever buy into a religion that just started by somebody recently like Scientology. God must have some History. If our Creator is really an absent Dad and all of a sudden decided to come back to us... then fuck Him. Who needs Him?

Bottomline is that I think it's clear everyone on earth knows about God(s) of some kind. Just like we can read the same bible and come up with different interpretations, similarly people over time end up twisting their religious ideas... and the end result is that we end up with different religions on different parts of the globe. That's my theory anyways. So naturally God will respond most to whoever most faithful. If there is a God of course.

Maybe Abraham just got lucky.

[Dicknose]

You'll have to be more specific here. How are Australian laws making you more like a Christian.

We have had several issues in recent years, such as gay marriage and assisted suicide, where people have come out and said "but god says". Im like, fine, but that should be your churches guide not a law for everyone.


Also, you yourself said human predisposition for religion seems universal. Based on what do you think not everyone needs it?

That it is widespread and common across civilisations that had no connection shows its universal as in not a construct or invention that must be passed on.
But that doesn't mean people need it. Certainly now that its place for explaining the "what and how" has been replaced by science.




For sure as we're able to explain more and more things thru science, we don't need things as God did it anymore. However, science is still a toddler. Scientists still don't know most of our own universe or even ourselves.

But science works, it explains, it makes predictions and is testable, it increases our knowledge and leads to new innovations.
Saying "god did it" does none of that and does nothing to improve our knowledge or technology.



# of religious people for sure isn't climbing anymore even in US. If people are continually getting better, than I'd feel safer dropping Jesus. However, is our society really getting better? The western world particularly. If we are really better than ever before, why the rising sentiment of wanting to make US great again? Western civilization is going down hill along with the dwindling # of followers of Jesus. That's my belief at least.

It seems weird that your belief is based on the success of a society. Does this work for individuals as well? Are poor people that way because they aren't blessed by god?

As for western society going downhill, I think its as strong as its ever been. This "things were better" has always been around.



My question for you is based on what do you have faith and hope? Faith in what? Hope in what?

Lots of things I have faith in - my friends and family. I have faith that science works. Yes happy to say it is faith that our universe works by principles that can be deduced, that gravity will work tomorrow!
I can hope for things to get better, for us to get thru this tough period

None of this need to involve a deity. I dont need a mystical power to grant my wishes.



What is so different about Christian morality and secular morality? I really don't see much difference. The main difference that's hard for me is Jesus asks us to love even our enemies. That is something I would not do if I'm not a Christian.

The difference is that religious morality is based on belief in a deity that specifies the morality. If I dont believe then none of that morality makes any sense.
Doesn't mean I will disagree with individual points eg "dont kill". Just that I place no value in the argument "dont kill because deity said so". Thats not a sensible reason.
As for "love your enemy", I can see good reasons for this based on the Golden Rule. Things such as revenge aren't good because it can spiral if the other person/side also takes revenge. Simple logic shows that this is not a good strategy.

Morality can be discussed and argued over how it affect people, freedoms v protections, individual v group.
And the accepted morality has changed over time. Id argue that in general it has improved.

The issue I have with religion in a societies moral debates is that "god says so" adds no value to the discussion. Its a waste of time. Even more so when people quote a holy text that has some pretty weird moral rules.

So should "dont work on the sabbath" be just as important as "dont steal"? What about wearing mixed cloths? Why would I listen to anything from a source that is that silly??

If you want your morality to follow your religion - that's fine as long as it doesn't harm others.
But if you want to set laws on morality then they need reasons that are not religious. Thats critically important in respecting other peoples rights to hold their own, or no, religion.



Anyway, even all earthly religions have things in common or similar stories... I don't think I'll ever buy into a religion that just started by somebody recently like Scientology. God must have some History. If our Creator is really an absent Dad and all of a sudden decided to come back to us... then fuck Him. Who needs Him?

But not all have things in common. There are similar stories in groups of religions but not across all. Some religions are monotheistic, others have multiple gods, while plenty of others have animal spirits.
There tends of be a common elements - such as morality and explaining the world we see. But there is no universal answers to those.
Probably the only common thing is faith in that religion!



So naturally God will respond most to whoever most faithful. If there is a God of course.
Maybe Abraham just got lucky.
And that's something I find really weird and almost offensive. Why is god such a bitch about wanting faith, yet gives such poor evidence.
Your religion is mostly decided by your family and society.
Should jewish people be punished for not believing in jesus? Should christians be punished if Islam is correct?

It just seems so bloody obvious that a requirement for a successful man made religion is to put such importance on faith. Well because there is no convincing evidence it must be faith based (and that's about the only universal component of religion!)
Its not proof that religions are wrong (although it would seem that of the hundreds of religions still in the world that at most 1 can be correct)
But it is telling that they all have an important characteristic that allows them to succeed even if they are false.

[Crazed_Insanity]

We have had several issues in recent years, such as gay marriage and assisted suicide, where people have come out and said "but god says". Im like, fine, but that should be your churches guide not a law for everyone.
Christians are not universally against gay marriage. I have a different interpretation of the bible compared to mainstream christians on such subject. 1 Peter 4:8 is pretty clear that love can cover all sins. Gay sex is sin, but love can cover that. Assisted killing is a sin, but love can cover that. Love is more powerful than anything else! Anyway, I think the problem you have is with democracy, right? If majority of crazy truck drivers decided to vote for some stupid law or stupid candidate, are you going to blame that on trucks? :p



That it is widespread and common across civilisations that had no connection shows its universal as in not a construct or invention that must be passed on.
But that doesn't mean people need it. Certainly now that its place for explaining the "what and how" has been replaced by science.
Pretty much all religions of the world are faith based. They all have their similarities as well. If humans don't really need it, why have they kept it for so long? As Jews, Christians and Muslims continued on for few thousand more years across different planets, maybe each group would also have forgotten about their shared connection: Abraham. People have different interpretations of the same thing. Do you think humans even have their languages developed independently in each nation? When the time comes when everyone has a chip in their head and be able to communicated telepathically, we could also give up speaking because science has rendered such practice useless? :p



But science works, it explains, it makes predictions and is testable, it increases our knowledge and leads to new innovations.
Saying "god did it" does none of that and does nothing to improve our knowledge or technology.
I'm really not anti-sciences, but science does have its limitation... for example, we still do not understand majority of our external physical universe. We also have little understanding of our internal consciousness. It's nice that we're now able to explain more and more things, but surely you realize there's still a LOT that we don't know. Humanity can be proud of our achievements so far, but we have to be careful and NOT be too proud of ourselves and start to 'play God'.



It seems weird that your belief is based on the success of a society. Does this work for individuals as well? Are poor people that way because they aren't blessed by god?
I'm using societies because it can give a better statistical average! Individually it should work as well, but only on a longer term basis. Kinda like healthy stock market or overall economic growth, it should grow over time, but at any given moment, there could still be crashes. Biblical example would be Job's ruined life... and Jesus crucified on the cross. If one were to focus only on a specific moment in time, one might figure God must not exist because how can He allow such bad things to happen to those who love Him so much?!?!?! However, if we could either see things from a longer term perspective... or greater population perspective, then it'll become easier to see what's really going on.


As for western society going downhill, I think its as strong as its ever been. This "things were better" has always been around.
Anyway, it is clear that Great Britain was not as great as before, right? Europeans were the dominant Christians before... and they became more secular and passed on the stupid Christian title to the Americans, right?

Of course it remains to be seen whether if atheistic China will be able to take the lead of the world without Jesus. ;)



Lots of things I have faith in - my friends and family. I have faith that science works. Yes happy to say it is faith that our universe works by principles that can be deduced, that gravity will work tomorrow!
I can hope for things to get better, for us to get thru this tough period
Our faith in our family and friends are based on past experiences. Science doesn't really need faith, right? Engineers don't cross their fingers and hope their planes and rockets fly... likewise passengers' faith are not needed to make any of the gadgets work. Regarding the mess around our world today, exactly what is your hope based on? Why do you think humanity will be able to get thru this tough period? Are we just super nice unselfish people? Always know to do the right things? How is your hope not based on wishful thinking? :p


None of this need to involve a deity. I dont need a mystical power to grant my wishes.
I just don't think I can count on mankind to not pollute, or stop wars, or generally stop fucking around. Yeah, not all mankind is bad, but for sure not many of us are that good. As science give us more powers, chances of us destroying our own world will grow exponentially higher. If there isn't a deity watching over us, you don't think it'd be so easy for us to destroy ourselves? So my wishful hope is that God is watching over us. I still don't know what your wishful hope is based on. :p



The difference is that religious morality is based on belief in a deity that specifies the morality. If I dont believe then none of that morality makes any sense.
Doesn't mean I will disagree with individual points eg "dont kill". Just that I place no value in the argument "dont kill because deity said so". Thats not a sensible reason.
As for "love your enemy", I can see good reasons for this based on the Golden Rule. Things such as revenge aren't good because it can spiral if the other person/side also takes revenge. Simple logic shows that this is not a good strategy.
So Jesus didn't violate the golden rule and you don't really have any major disagreement with Jesus, right?


Morality can be discussed and argued over how it affect people, freedoms v protections, individual v group.
And the accepted morality has changed over time. Id argue that in general it has improved.
Can you argue that Christianity has generally caused western nations to go backwards compared to other non-Christian cultures?


The issue I have with religion in a societies moral debates is that "god says so" adds no value to the discussion. Its a waste of time. Even more so when people quote a holy text that has some pretty weird moral rules.
If people can grab things out of their asses, I'd allow religious folks to grab things out of the bible. :p
Everyone can have an opinion, how can we know who's right who's wrong? Thanks goodness we have a democracy I guess.


So should "dont work on the sabbath" be just as important as "dont steal"? What about wearing mixed cloths? Why would I listen to anything from a source that is that silly??
Yeah, I don't even follow those rules! Imagine that! :p



But not all have things in common. There are similar stories in groups of religions but not across all. Some religions are monotheistic, others have multiple gods, while plenty of others have animal spirits.
There tends of be a common elements - such as morality and explaining the world we see. But there is no universal answers to those.
Probably the only common thing is faith in that religion!
Yes. Why is that? Hmm....



And that's something I find really weird and almost offensive. Why is god such a bitch about wanting faith, yet gives such poor evidence.
Your religion is mostly decided by your family and society.
Should jewish people be punished for not believing in jesus? Should christians be punished if Islam is correct?

It just seems so bloody obvious that a requirement for a successful man made religion is to put such importance on faith. Well because there is no convincing evidence it must be faith based (and that's about the only universal component of religion!)
Its not proof that religions are wrong (although it would seem that of the hundreds of religions still in the world that at most 1 can be correct)
But it is telling that they all have an important characteristic that allows them to succeed even if they are false.

I think you find it offensive precisely because it's not evidence based! :p

Earlier on you said you have faith in family and friends, but you've known them for a while and built trust with them.

I think religious faith is more like meeting a 'stranger' and taking a leap to fall in love without any past info/data/evidence... and hope for the best!

However, I don't think my own religious faith is completely blind. This is why I've looked at historical data of past Christians, along with my personal experiences with God, and I try my best to trace the footsteps of Abraham.

There's no right and wrong in this. If you're not in love with somebody, you're just not going to fall for that somebody. Simple as that. If you somehow fall in love, then you would not find blind faith in that person that offensive.

Anyway, the only faith, hope and love equivalent I can find without God is perhaps during our mating ritual process. Often times things don't work out and that'll probably end up causing us to have less faith, hope and love next time... nevertheless, I do believe having faith, hope and love in whatever is super important for all humanity. Being faithless, hopeless and loveless is not the way for us to live. Which is probably why humanity had universally embraced various religions because religions tend to maximize those things and able to motivate people to go on even during the most difficult hardships.

[Dicknose]

Christians are not universally against gay marriage. I have a different interpretation of the bible compared to mainstream christians on such subject. 1 Peter 4:8 is pretty clear that love can cover all sins. Gay sex is sin, but love can cover that. Assisted killing is a sin, but love can cover that. Love is more powerful than anything else! Anyway, I think the problem you have is with democracy, right? If majority of crazy truck drivers decided to vote for some stupid law or stupid candidate, are you going to blame that on trucks? :p
[quote]
My problem is someone wanting to encode their religion as law.
Those "sins" are only for people who believe in that religion. If your only argument for/against them are based on your religion then it should only apply to your religion.
If you want it to

Do you think christians should have their religious morality enforced as law?

[quote]
Pretty much all religions of the world are faith based. They all have their similarities as well. If humans don't really need it, why have they kept it for so long?

That it has lasted so long doesn't mean everyone needs it or that's its correct or even good.
It really just means its good at surviving.

The common cold has been around for a long while...




I'm really not anti-sciences, but science does have its limitation... for example, we still do not understand majority of our external physical universe. We also have little understanding of our internal consciousness. It's nice that we're now able to explain more and more things, but surely you realize there's still a LOT that we don't know. Humanity can be proud of our achievements so far, but we have to be careful and NOT be too proud of ourselves and start to 'play God'.

Agreed that we dont know everything. My point was that what we do know has come from science, not from religion.
You might try to awkwardly retro fit Genesis into scientific knowledge, but it played no part in getting to that knowledge. No religions explanations have proved insightful in describing the universe.



I'm using societies because it can give a better statistical average! Individually it should work as well, but only on a longer term basis.

Yeah but that doesn't hold up. Plenty of christians have suffered and had terrible lives. Its all part of his plan.



Science doesn't really need faith, right?

Well it actually does. We can't prove that science is a valid concept. We assume that the universe is describable and can be described by "laws". That humans can understand how it works. Gravity will work tomorrow.
Now the universe doesn't need our faith for this to work!

And that the universe is like this - seems so obvious that its taken as a fact, rather than a faith. Unfortunately any proof of it (like gravity working every day, everywhere) is based on the assumption, so any proof would be circular.

Thats a faith but one that is



How is your hope not based on wishful thinking? :p

Of cause my hope and faith in people is built on wishful thinking. It wouldn't be faith and hope if it was a certainty.




So my wishful hope is that God is watching over us. I still don't know what your wishful hope is based on. :p

That people as a group generally want what's best of the group. It has its moments when it fails, but in general we cooperate to improve things.
A few thousand years of things getting better shows me that its possible, my hope is that it will continue.
That hope is based on history and that most people are like me and basically good.



So Jesus didn't violate the golden rule and you don't really have any major disagreement with Jesus, right?

Yes but that doesn't mean you can just quote Jesus and say that's how it is. If its based on the golden rule, then explain it in terms of that, not because some demigod said it.



Can you argue that Christianity has generally caused western nations to go backwards compared to other non-Christian cultures?

Doing well for Nigeria compared to say UAE.



If people can grab things out of their asses, I'd allow religious folks to grab things out of the bible. :p
Everyone can have an opinion, how can we know who's right who's wrong? Thanks goodness we have a democracy I guess.

And if someone just grabs it out there arse Id ask - why?
Explain your opinion and why it should matter to me or be enforced on me.
Its the reasoning, not the opinion, that is important.
If your reason is - because I say so, then again that's invalid. Same if the reason is someone else said so - invalid. Reason is my god said so - invalid.

If you want your opinion or morals to apply to others

Democracy is not voting on your favourite flavour. Its often about setting rules. So you might like chocolate, but that is not a reason to vote for chocolate to be the only flavour.
Thats what you seem to miss. You argue that the majority opinion should be law. But that doesn't work if the majority are trying to stop others because they dont like something that doesn't even affect them.
Apply the Golden Rule - if you wouldn't want someone stopping you from doing something that doesn't affect them, dont do the same to others.
If gays getting married doesn't affect you then dont stop it. If assisted suicide doesn't affect you then dont stop it. If others religion doesn't affect you then dont stop it.
Ah and that's the point - would it be fair if we got a majority of atheists that it would be ok to ban all religion, after all we are the majority and we dont want religion.




I think you find it offensive precisely because it's not evidence based! :p

A deity that says is loving also threatens to send you to hell unless you believe, then gives you no evidence. Just sounds like a jerk.
Oh but wait there are several of these jerks, all saying the other is wrong and that its only if you choose the correct one will you be saved.
All this loving stuff is fine if you have faith in the correct roll of the dice.
You dont find this offensive?



I think religious faith is more like meeting a 'stranger' and taking a leap to fall in love without any past info/data/evidence... and hope for the best!

I generally trust strangers, not to the stage of "please mind my car keys while I go someone for an hour".




Anyway, the only faith, hope and love equivalent I can find without God is perhaps during our mating ritual process.
So someone who is not religious and not in a mating ritual is without faith, hope, love??
You think these things only come from religious belief??
I know the expression "god is love" is common. I can see that, personifying that feeling and assigning it to a god. But you have to see that people without that god (none or different god) also experience love. They are capable of hope, sacrifice and many other things that come from that love.

But to think those without your god can't have love...
That is seriously messed up. It shows a complete lack of respect for other people. What do you think of atheists if you think that they are not capable of these?
It also breaks the Golden Rule. If you want people to accept that you are capable of love, then you should do the same for them. Neither of you can prove your internal state to the other, so you should accept that of them.

If that's truly how many religious people think, I can see why they have no respect for others and treat them like shit. Maybe that explains why religion is capable of such evil if they can see people of no religion as capable of love and hope, that these other people are not equals.

[Dicknose]

After a google for "morals without god"...
https://www.reasonablefaith.org/writings/popular-writings/existence-nature-of-god/can-we-be-good-without-god


In summary, theological meta-ethical foundations do seem to be necessary for morality. If God does not exist, then it is plausible to think that there are no objective moral values, that we have no moral duties, and that there is no moral accountability for how we live and act. The horror of such a morally neutral world is obvious. If, on the other hand, we hold, as it seems rational to do, that objective moral values and duties do exist, then we have good grounds for believing in the existence of God. In addition, we have powerful practical reasons for embracing theism in view of the morally bracing effects which belief in moral accountability produces. We cannot, then, truly be good without God; but if we can in some measure be good, then it follows that God exists.

Oh dear, where do I start.

1 - even if you accept the morals => god, who says that means his god?? Could be Islam is correct and its their morals we should use.
Not that I accept his premise, but even if I did the outcome of which god can just be assumed.

2 - why is "rational" that objective morals exist?? No proof or even explanation, its as if this is just an assumption.
If that's so, why has religious morals changed so much. Why was slavery ok for the bible and much of the time since, but is now considered seriously morally wrong?

3 - if morals are not objective (implied absolute) then why is the only other option no morals?
Morals can be changing and based on the enlightenment of the society. Doesn't mean they dont exist.
And just because they can change doesn't make them worthless.
This absolute or nothing is a complete failure of understanding.

4 - moral accountability
Why do we need heaven/hell for moral accountability. Actually if the ultimate accountability is after death, then why bother with laws and punishment on earth?
Most people have a genuine desire to be moral. We might stray, stretch or even outright ignore our morals. But most will feel some guilt and remorse. This is an internal thing that helps us keep to our morals. Externally we get judgement from family/peers or even punishment from society. It seems universal that societies develop laws or rules and have punishment if you break them. This includes societies prior to exposure to abrahamic god.
Does he really think that people who dont believe in god have no morals and would just rape, steal, kill etc because it doesn't matter? Funny that some religious people do all these, plenty of atheists do none. Its almost as if being moral doesn't depend on your religious beliefs.

5 - being good doesn't prove god. What sort of shit is that? Thats religious hippy talk. A toss away line that makes him feel good but has no logic to it.


This person probably thinks they have made a great argument for morals only come from god and even prove god exists.
But its got poor logic, no evidence and shows an incredible lack of awareness of the world.


As for the source of morals, I can justify mine with logic. Mostly based on "no person is special, we should all be treated equal", which is the same principle as the golden rule.
Dont kill - because I wouldn't like for me or people that are close to me to be killed. So extended I dont think anyone should be killed. Will it hurt me as much if some person unknown to me is killed compared to say a family member - no. But as a principle both deaths are equally wrong.
Same logic works for dont steal, dont rape and most other things.
We should also try to allow personal freedoms where they dont infringe on others. Freedom of religion, sexuality, politics etc. I dont have to agree or even like their choices, but if its about them and other consenting people then its not my business.

See you dont need a god to decide morals for you. And if the bible is any guide, they have some shit morals. Slavery ok, dont wear mixed clothes - come on seriously.
And the 10 commandments, well the first few are about the god and religion - clearly they shouldn't be universal in any society that accepts freedom of religion! So there is 4 out of 10 gone from universal morals.
5 honour your mother and father - good advice but I dont think its something that we should enshrine in law. Is it death to people who ignore their parents?
6 dont murder - I think this has been fairly universal. Although of course more religious places tend to have the death penalty, so there is clearly wriggle room on this one. And plenty of argument about murder not including killing people outside the religion, which doesn't seem very moral to me. god out to have been a bit more clear on this one. Like "dont kill anyone, ever, but we may want to discuss self defence"
7 no adultery - but does that mean outside marriage is ok? what about a consenting three some or swinging? I can see cheating on a spouse is wrong but is it death wrong or jail or just grounds for divorce or maybe financial penalty. And maybe god should have been more clear about non-consensual sex, even inside marriage. Seems the church has been (is still) ok with spousal rape but against premarital sex - hmm yup good morals there.
8 dont steal - agreed that seems fair. Personal property seems an important aspect of our societies. But does that mean no tax, if Im forced to had it over against my will is that not stealing. What moral obligations do I have to share? Is it ok to steal food if you are starving and others have excess? Or do I let my family die because it is wrong to steal? (the "its wrong" makes me think of Buffy when she body swaps with the bad slayer Faith, then Faith is practicing to be Buffy "you can't do that - because its wrong")
9 no false witness - which seems to be a very specific lie. You can lie, just not as testimony about someone. Ok seems reasonable. But you can lie in other cases or did that slip onto the missing third tablet?
10 dont covert wife, donkey, slaves! - well shouldn't this fall under dont steal, or is it immoral just to want these things even if you dont act on it. And when is simple envy ok? And seems pretty clear here that slaves make the list of acceptable property, hmmm.

So yeah I dont think the 10 commandments are very good. 4 are specific to the religion. Adultary seems arbitrary and open to interpretation while leaving open a whole can of worms with rape.
Ill give 3 the thumbs up - dont murder, steal or bear false witness.

But damn that leaves a lot of room for other sins.
And even the donts aren't all that clear and throughout its history has had lots of exclusions.

So yeah excuse me if I think using religion as a basis for morals and laws is a bit lacking on clarity, reasoning and even just outright absurdity eg slaves.
Even ignoring the "I dont believe in your god" as a reason to ignore religious morals, I think just in the writing its clear that they are outdated and inadequate. Id score them 1/10, must try harder.

[Dicknose]

https://youtu.be/IyDPtYQDhOM?t=43
Not sure if the goto time is working - but about 40 seconds in.

[Crazed_Insanity]

My problem is someone wanting to encode their religion as law.
Those "sins" are only for people who believe in that religion. If your only argument for/against them are based on your religion then it should only apply to your religion.
If you want it to

Do you think christians should have their religious morality enforced as law?
No! Jesus wasn’t sent to enforce laws nor should Christians. If Jesus is meant to enforce laws, then the adulteress should’ve been stoned to death in accordance to law… Jesus should not have said, ‘let those without sin cast the stone first.’

So anyway, even ignoring Christianity, no, we should not have theocracies. We don’t need to give any religious leaders absolute power. Democracy is definitely not perfect, but it’ll be better than giving too much power to too few people.



That it has lasted so long doesn't mean everyone needs it or that's its correct or even good.
It really just means its good at surviving.

The common cold has been around for a long while...

Common cold exists. So you are willing to accept the fact that as long as a religion survives, then the god(s) of that religion is still living and existing? ;)



Agreed that we dont know everything. My point was that what we do know has come from science, not from religion.
You might try to awkwardly retro fit Genesis into scientific knowledge, but it played no part in getting to that knowledge. No religions explanations have proved insightful in describing the universe.
Bible was not meant to give you a scientific insights, it’s essentially HisStory about Him and His creations. A good story is not mostly about giving insights. The most compelling and moving stories are typically emotional. Another element that logic and reason can’t explain properly.


Yeah but that doesn't hold up. Plenty of christians have suffered and had terrible lives. Its all part of his plan.
But plenty also lived full lives which resulted in the advancement of their civilization! To have extra time to venture into scientific discoveries and to preach/colonize the rest of the world…



Well it actually does. We can't prove that science is a valid concept. We assume that the universe is describable and can be described by "laws". That humans can understand how it works. Gravity will work tomorrow.
Now the universe doesn't need our faith for this to work!
Yes, I believe those early Christian scientists had such assumptions because they believe their Creator is a faithful God, so He must operate based on certain laws/rules and not just do things on a whim like Q in Star Trek.


And that the universe is like this - seems so obvious that its taken as a fact, rather than a faith. Unfortunately any proof of it (like gravity working every day, everywhere) is based on the assumption, so any proof would be circular.

Thats a faith but one that is


Of cause my hope and faith in people is built on wishful thinking. It wouldn't be faith and hope if it was a certainty.
You allow yourself such luxury of circular thinking but you wouldn’t give the same luxury to Creator of the universe?




That people as a group generally want what's best of the group. It has its moments when it fails, but in general we cooperate to improve things.
A few thousand years of things getting better shows me that its possible, my hope is that it will continue.
That hope is based on history and that most people are like me and basically good.

I can’t say that I share your optimism. Even if most are good, what about those in positions of power? Putin, Xi, Trump… are they good? :p


Yes but that doesn't mean you can just quote Jesus and say that's how it is. If its based on the golden rule, then explain it in terms of that, not because some demigod said it.
I don’t understand what’s your problem with Jesus if he is preaching the same thing as golden rule.




Democracy is not voting on your favourite flavour. Its often about setting rules. So you might like chocolate, but that is not a reason to vote for chocolate to be the only flavour.
Thats what you seem to miss. You argue that the majority opinion should be law. But that doesn't work if the majority are trying to stop others because they dont like something that doesn't even affect them.
Apply the Golden Rule - if you wouldn't want someone stopping you from doing something that doesn't affect them, dont do the same to others.
If gays getting married doesn't affect you then dont stop it. If assisted suicide doesn't affect you then dont stop it. If others religion doesn't affect you then dont stop it.
Ah and that's the point - would it be fair if we got a majority of atheists that it would be ok to ban all religion, after all we are the majority and we dont want religion.
Majority can definitely be wrong at times, but that’s how democracy works, majority rules. Over time, direction of the wind may blow differently and we’ll change the law.

Anyway, like I said before, Jesus is supposed to be the savior not the lawyer of the world. I honestly believe Christians should not be so hung up on passing laws as if laws could make this world a better place.



A deity that says is loving also threatens to send you to hell unless you believe, then gives you no evidence. Just sounds like a jerk.
Oh but wait there are several of these jerks, all saying the other is wrong and that its only if you choose the correct one will you be saved.
All this loving stuff is fine if you have faith in the correct roll of the dice.
You dont find this offensive?
Choice is ours, God doesn’t send us to heaven nor to hell. We choose which direction we go. We choose which God to believe in. Likewise I can only choose one chick to fall in love with. Could also choose to remain single. By making different choices, surely I’ll experience different heavens and different hells, right? ;)



So someone who is not religious and not in a mating ritual is without faith, hope, love??
You think these things only come from religious belief??
I know the expression "god is love" is common. I can see that, personifying that feeling and assigning it to a god. But you have to see that people without that god (none or different god) also experience love. They are capable of hope, sacrifice and many other things that come from that love.

But to think those without your god can't have love...
That is seriously messed up. It shows a complete lack of respect for other people. What do you think of atheists if you think that they are not capable of these?
It also breaks the Golden Rule. If you want people to accept that you are capable of love, then you should do the same for them. Neither of you can prove your internal state to the other, so you should accept that of them.

If that's truly how many religious people think, I can see why they have no respect for others and treat them like shit. Maybe that explains why religion is capable of such evil if they can see people of no religion as capable of love and hope, that these other people are not equals.

No, I was just saying falling in love with a stranger is like taking a leap of faith with God. We don’t require evidences nor explanations when we fall for someone.

Anyway, you must really hate Jesus. He can be preaching the golden rule and you still think we don’t need him to preach it. Just go away Jesus! :p

Lastly, Jesus is also not just a preacher. Remember he deflected all those stones away from that adulteress. She would've been killed lawfully if Jesus wasn't there. This is why he's called a savior.

Of course for you, you could just say, 'well, I'm not going to commit adultery so I won't get into that predicament in the 1st place... so I don't need Jesus!'

That is certainly true. You already know the golden rule and you follow it strictly and never made any mistakes and never hurt anybody so you probably don't really need somebody as redundant as Jesus. If I don't need to be saved, what's the purpose of a savior? If I won't get in a crash, what's the point of seat belts and airbags, right? If I don't get infected, why do I need vaccines, right? I'm gonna be just fine without Jesus thank you very much! :p

I hope you do realize most people in this world are not as smart nor as good as you.

[Tom Servo]

https://youtu.be/IyDPtYQDhOM?t=43
Not sure if the goto time is working - but about 40 seconds in.

Solid reference

[Dicknose]

So anyway, even ignoring Christianity, no, we should not have theocracies. We don’t need to give any religious leaders absolute power. Democracy is definitely not perfect, but it’ll be better than giving too much power to too few people.

But its not much different is a religious majority use democracy to effectively create a theocracy!



Common cold exists. So you are willing to accept the fact that as long as a religion survives, then the god(s) of that religion is still living and existing? ;)

As long as you agree that the same logic implies all other existing religions are correct and their gods exist!



You allow yourself such luxury of circular thinking but you wouldn’t give the same luxury to Creator of the universe?

Thats why I say its faith, not proof. The statement "the universe works by fixed laws that can be described by mathematics and discovered via science" is a faith.
But its held up so well that most take this as a fact.



I can’t say that I share your optimism. Even if most are good, what about those in positions of power? Putin, Xi, Trump… are they good? :p

Not everyone, there are a lot worse than them, they are just ones with power.
But most people are good, want to be good.



I don’t understand what’s your problem with Jesus if he is preaching the same thing as golden rule.

No problem at all with zombie guy.
My problem is when someone says "its wrong because jesus says so" - that is only a valid argument to those who believe in him.



Majority can definitely be wrong at times, but that’s how democracy works, majority rules. Over time, direction of the wind may blow differently and we’ll change the law.

Once again - if the people involved in the democracy follow the golden rule then I have no problem.
But if a majority try to use it to enforce their religion on others - Id say these people are evil.



Choice is ours, God doesn’t send us to heaven nor to hell. We choose which direction we go. We choose which God to believe in.

God doesn't send us??? If its our choice then everyone do the Life of Brian scene where the guy on his way to crucifixion gets asked and says - no Im to be set free.
Of cause your god is the one who judges, he is the one that sends you. If might be judged off your actions, but the "he doesn't send us" is not what your religion claims.



Anyway, you must really hate Jesus. He can be preaching the golden rule and you still think we don’t need him to preach it. Just go away Jesus! :p

The golden rule was around well before him (and probably more than 1000 years before the ten commandments).
His word has no power for non believers.

But jumping from your "say Jesus a lot" distraction - Ill ask again... do you really think people who dont believe in your god or jesus can have love, hope, faith?
That makes them sound like non humans, something that can lead to stuff like the Holocaust.

[Crazed_Insanity]

But its not much different is a religious majority use democracy to effectively create a theocracy!

If you have better ideas I’m all ears. At least currently, Supreme Court should step in and prevent theocracy…? Anyway, this is beyond the scope of our discussion.



As long as you agree that the same logic implies all other existing religions are correct and their gods exist!

Other religions/Gods/spiritual beings definitely could exist. Just like we have different nations, languages, … it won’t be easy to figure out which is correct, but the fittest one definitely should last the longest. If a god cannot survive, we probably don’t need him that badly. ;)


Thats why I say its faith, not proof. The statement "the universe works by fixed laws that can be described by mathematics and discovered via science" is a faith.
But its held up so well that most take this as a fact.

For a faith based religion, I thought Christianity held up pretty well too.


Not everyone, there are a lot worse than them, they are just ones with power.
But most people are good, want to be good.

Most in the west are evil Christians who wish to torture you with their golden laws! :p


No problem at all with zombie guy.
My problem is when someone says "its wrong because jesus says so" - that is only a valid argument to those who believe in him.

My argument is that the evil western Christians had being doing that for 2000 years, and I don’t think their evilness screwed them over. Only you think they’re evil when they try to do good. Of course not saying early Christians were so perfect that they did nothing wrong or bad, I’m sure that savior probably had to intervene often to save the day…


Once again - if the people involved in the democracy follow the golden rule then I have no problem.
But if a majority try to use it to enforce their religion on others - Id say these people are evil.
In a world of moral relativism, it’s easy to think people who disagree with you as evil. How can we really be certain who’s right?

There’s just no way to make that determination with absolute certainty. Therefore we have freedom of speech/religions… as long as we’re not hurting others, we try to agree to disagree.



God doesn't send us??? If its our choice then everyone do the Life of Brian scene where the guy on his way to crucifixion gets asked and says - no Im to be set free.
Of cause your god is the one who judges, he is the one that sends you. If might be judged off your actions, but the "he doesn't send us" is not what your religion claims.
I’m saved by my choice to believe and also by Gods grace. It’s the duality thing again, there’s my share of responsibility and also Gods share. It’s not one or the other. Abraham has faith, but where ever he’s going and where ever he ends up will be due to where he goes with his feet. God won’t supernaturally force him to do anything or send him anywhere against his will.


The golden rule was around well before him (and probably more than 1000 years before the ten commandments).
His word has no power for non believers.

But jumping from your "say Jesus a lot" distraction - Ill ask again... do you really think people who dont believe in your god or jesus can have love, hope, faith?
That makes them sound like non humans, something that can lead to stuff like the Holocaust.
I don’t understand how you continue to misinterpret me. I never said non Christians are in capable of faith hope and love. Of course everyone has such capacity. It’s just that Christianity tend to encourage them the most. Buddhism has less emphasis on love. Most grown adults who’s been hurt badly in the past also may become more skeptical of faith hope and love…

Also I hope you don’t think only Christians or Nazis are capable of holocaust. All humanity is capable of that. Most people can become very very bad, that’s why founding fathers setup check and balances in our government. That’s why they didn’t want theocracy. That’s why this world needs a savior. Golden rules just won’t be enough to end wars nor fight climate change…

Of course Jesus also appears to be powerless to stop wars and warming climates, but this savior isn't forcing everyone to be saved against their wills. He's only saving those who wish to be saved. If Putin insists on war, Jesus will simply let this war happen, but still be able to have it benefit some of those who love Jesus somehow... similar to the tactic of allowing himself to be crucified and still be able to use that to save all those who wants to be saved...

Anyway, for our current situation, main 'benefit' of this stupid war I'm hoping is for Russians will eventually wake up and overthrow their dictator.

Also, China saw the collapse of USSR and realized they can't rely solely on communism... so they opened up a bit and allow capitalism. Hope this crazy war will also open Xi's eye about the dangers of authoritarianism and make appropriate changes for the benefit of China's future...

[Dicknose]

There’s just no way to make that determination with absolute certainty. Therefore we have freedom of speech/religions… as long as we’re not hurting others, we try to agree to disagree.

The point is that religions claiming their morals to be absolute have done a lot of harm - being gay was a crime in many places until recently (and still in some countries).
You might not have affected, but "my god says so" has caused a lot of harm.
And it continues to do harm to some, in ways that doesn't affect others. eg christians against same sex marriage




I don’t understand how you continue to misinterpret me. I never said non Christians are in capable of faith hope and love. Of course everyone has such capacity. It’s just that Christianity tend to encourage them the most.

Ok so you said hard, not impossible. Still not sure why its any harder or that this is anything other than your personal bias. You do understand that what you think is best for you doesn't make it best for everyone.

And from googling this issue - it does seem that plenty of christians are of the opinion that you can only be good and have proper love by following their given religion. Its downright scary.



Also I hope you don’t think only Christians or Nazis are capable of holocaust. All humanity is capable of that.

Agreed.
But it is easier if you can convince people that another group is not as human. And religion has been a good way to do that.

[Crazed_Insanity]

The point is that religions claiming their morals to be absolute have done a lot of harm - being gay was a crime in many places until recently (and still in some countries).
You might not have affected, but "my god says so" has caused a lot of harm.
And it continues to do harm to some, in ways that doesn't affect others. eg christians against same sex marriage

A lot of harm? How much is a lot? How many in total human population are gay and how many gays actually do want to get marry forever and ever? Statistically, I’d consider more than 50% of the population to be a lot. On a personal level, of course such bans would cause a lot of personal harms… but is Jesus or the Christians the main evildoers?

Which culture in human history embraces gay marriage? As for more modern ones, it wasn’t the atheistic USSR nor China, it wasn’t India, it wasn’t the Arabs… it was a ‘western’ nation that 1st allowed gay marriage. Can’t give glory to Jesus directly for that, but at least Netherland had a Christian foundation. Without this Christian foundation, will the Europeans be as free as they are today? You think it's the rise of the secularists that helped the gay population, but yes, my argument is that this has only happened to secularists in 'western' nations. There ought to be atheists and secularists else where on earth as well. However, have you heard any of them pushing for gay marriage? Not to mention actually making it happen?

Lastly, on a more personal level. I do have gay christian friends. You'd be surprised how may gay people not only love God but also attend church. Based on what I've seen, I think gays are probably more likely/willing to believe in God than heterosexuals for some odd reasons. Like I've told you before, I do believe homosexuality is a sin, but scripture is also clear that love can cover all sins.



Ok so you said hard, not impossible. Still not sure why its any harder or that this is anything other than your personal bias. You do understand that what you think is best for you doesn't make it best for everyone.
Sure, there’s no one size fits all for everything. However, as a Chinese American secularist turned Buddhist, survival of Christianity is not something I cared much for. In fact, I remember hating W and evangelical Christians so much prior to my conversion…

As a Christian, you can say that I’m biased now, sure. Just saying that prior to my conversion, I was pretty biased against Christianity.

Point is, my personal bias is irrelevant when it comes to how gospel is spread. There are definitely a lot of stupid Caucasians like W in the west. It really made no sense to me how the West developed so well with so many idiots compared to other cultures. That's how I reached my conclusion that Jesus must've been helping them along the way. :p


And from googling this issue - it does seem that plenty of christians are of the opinion that you can only be good and have proper love by following their given religion. Its downright scary.
Logically, it’s reasonable to assume that your faith, hope, love and life won’t last forever, right? However, we Christians do believe they’re meant to last forever.

I think it’s indeed very scary that you take our brief transient moments on earth as enough and you’d reject having more of it! :p

You can continue to harp on the morality issue, but seriously, I really don't see Jesus disagreeing with golden rule. Not even the gay marriage issue. If we already have gay christians and even gay ministers(2 of my personal friends who are married to one another), why are you still so hung up about christian morality being not as good as golden rule?



Agreed.
But it is easier if you can convince people that another group is not as human. And religion has been a good way to do that.
Jesus commanded disciples to preach the good news to all humanoids all over the world.

People are pretty good at looking down at or be 'scared of' each others, but not my Jesus.

Anyway, Christianity aside, I think we have reached the conclusion that it's good for humanity to have faith, hope and love, right?

Religions typically maximize people's faith, hope and love. Therefore, religions are good for people from that perspective.

Religions can only be bad for people who intend on using them to justify their hatred. However, such propaganda can work just as well without religion. My hypothesis is that if you are truly rooted in a loving religious belief, you probably should be more immuned to such hateful propaganda.

Can you really logically hypothesize that atheism/secularism will actually make people more loving and less hateful? Moral relativism will actually allow humans to live together more harmoniously?

What will be the difference between people of different religions vs people of different morals? Wouldn't we end up with the same difference? Just minus all the faith hope and love crap, or people could invent their own wishful thinking to create their own faith, hope and love?

Just as faith hope and love are not exclusive to Christians, logic and reasoning are also not exclusive to secularists and atheists, right? So what's really the advantage of secularism/atheism?

To wean off a bad habit, besides telling the addict all the bad things about such habit, you also have to tell him other good things that can take its place instead. What am I missing by being a follower of Jesus?

Since I'm not gay and I don't think you're gay... can we steer away from gay marriage and try to discuss about things that's more personal/relatable to us?

[Crazed_Insanity]

Wife wanted to move out of LA, Denver and Seattle were the 2 top destinations because we enjoyed vacationing there. I really thought we’d move to Denver originally, and I even found a church thru FB and we’ve been attending online ever since the pandemic. Anyway, will need to find a new local church eventually but at the moment we’re still attending this Colorado church virtually! ;)

Todays Mother’s Day sermon was really atypical. No mentions of moms at all, well maybe expected moms?

I just thought pastors really gutsy this week to include current politics in his sermon. He was saying typical Christian’s prolife stance is essentially against abortion. However, if that’s all you think prolife is all about, you really should shut up!

If any of you wish to learn the politics of Jesus, here’s the sermon. Skip to 30:00 for the actual sermon.


https://youtu.be/noP0lmGxJ8A

[FaultyMario]

Yeah? Okay… but why do you believe God is powerless to meddle with this world?

I never said he was powerless.


Why do you believe Jesus didn’t temporarily walked this earth 2000 years ago and meddled around in Israel?

I believe in Jesus.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Thanks for moving it here, anyway, just wondering why God cannot meddle around in this world?

Or I’m misunderstanding something you said?

[Tom Servo]

I'm still working through believing in The System(tm)

[FaultyMario]

Thanks for moving it here, anyway, just wondering why God cannot meddle around in this world?

Or I’m misunderstanding something you said?

The City of God doctrine states that God will destroy the temporal realm of man, and in the end of time only the City of God will exist. I have 0 evidence to the contrary, thus far everything that was made by man has perished.

The doctrine also states that earthly "princes" have no power whatsoever on the realm of the spirit. Again, I have no evidence against that claim.

As a Christian I believe in the new covenant, not the old one. I have accepted the love of the son of God, my God will not meddle.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I'm still working through believing in The System(tm)



I like longterm things… whether it’s owning my Civic or my S2000. ;)

Doc love’s system isn’t about one night stands but to help nerds like Billi to be able to find longterm partners… or to eliminate girls who can’t sustained longterm relationships. It definitely helped me not marry a girl I truly love but she’s not really right for me. Without knowing the system, I most likely would’ve married her and be divorced by now! :p

Now Lord Jesus is really a next level up. He actually meddled around and convinced my current wife to marry me. I’d tell you the whole story but you’ll have to take me off ignore list 1st. :p

Seriously Mario, Jesus intervened on my behalf to convince a gal who I was pursuing to marry me. Without such intervention, my wife was 100% sure that she’d not have married me.

Anyway, Mario, can you explain to me why Jesus will not meddle in our world?

[FaultyMario]

I have accepted the love of the son of God.

I want to emphasize this part. I quite emphatically believe that a dude from the Levant named Jesus opened his chest and showed us his heart and asked me to drink his blood as a way to commit myself to being a brother of his brothers and then he asked me to eat his flesh, in order for me to promise to follow his example.

In short, him and me, we made a deal; we sealed the deal with Blood, because family. We sealed the deal with flesh, because teachings.

[FaultyMario]

can you explain to me why Jesus will not meddle in our world?

No need to. There is nothing of interest in our world.

[Crazed_Insanity]

So you believe the Catholic Church is entirely created by men? God is not involved in the creation of the churches around the world? Because God is not interested in anything in this world?

Mi amigo… maybe it is such theological doctrine that caused the differences between USA and Mexico.

You gotta believe Jesus is interested in saving this world, that’s why he came and planted his church here. What’s a Savior good for if he’s incapable of or unwilling to meddle in earthly affairs?

What good is a life guard if he’s not interested in diving in the pool to get wet? Our Savior is not that distant. Draw close to him and he will draw close to us.

Anyway, there are probably a lot of conservative Christian’s who believe God answered their prayers with the overturning of R v W. However, I just don’t feel the same way based on my understanding of the Bible.

My hope is that this was allowed to happened so that our government won’t turn too heavily to the right come next midterm.

If GOP wins big and Trump goes on the make America so great again and again… then maybe my understanding of the Bible is just wrong…

[Tom Servo]

I think maybe to further my last post - the whole concept for "the lord works in mysterious ways" is a thought-terminating cliche. When good things happen post-prayer, that's our god doing good for us. When good things don't happen, it's god working in mysterious ways. It's no different from any cult.

If it's good, it's the imaginary friend. If it's not, it's still the imaginary friend, only working in a way that you can never hope to understand. There is no outcome that cannot be attributed to the overseer. If God answers your prayers, that's great. If he/she/it does not, well, it was probably for a good reason that you're too dumb to understand. There is no outcome that cannot be attributed to the imaginary friend.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Exactly!

Our universe came to be because of imaginary friend!

Was the Bible inspired by this imaginary friend or just the worlds best selling and most published fiction?

Well, that depends on your level of faith.

Was the West based on this imaginary friend or fiction?

I choose to believe imaginary friend.

Look, if even numbers can be imaginary, why not a friend who loves and cares for us?

If the entire west has been based on fiction, maybe it’s time for it to collapse and just let China take over?

Choose what you believe wisely.

[FaultyMario]

You gotta believe Jesus is interested in saving this world

My god is only interested in saving souls and there's zero evidence that souls exist in the material world.

I hope that I made the point that religion is an entirely personal 'thing', for lack of a better word. And I hope that I made the point clear the there can't be a nexus from:


My beliefs and aspirations <- Our laws <- Your body and your choices.

That's not how it works.

[Yw-slayer]

Again, why do you guys even bother? lol

[Crazed_Insanity]

My god is only interested in saving souls and there's zero evidence that souls exist in the material world.

I hope that I made the point that religion is an entirely personal 'thing', for lack of a better word.

I can agree with you on what you said above, but it still does not help me understand your 'theology' of why Jesus would do absolutely nothing for you in this world and would just be sitting at heaven's door waiting for you.

Kingdom of God is at hand! That's what Jesus told us. What does 'at hand' mean? My take is that we could reach out and grab on to it... and as more of us grabbing on to it, it should not only make some difference in this world, but also improve this world.

I believe that's how the West got ahead of the rest of the world. Of course as the Europeans and Americans let go... we'd revert back to a more godless world.

Anyway, my point is that religions shouldn't be so private and so imaginary that it's all about the after life. A timeless and formless God should be able to access and intervene at all time and all space. In worlds who'd humbly follow Him, things should become better than before. Otherwise what's the point? :p

If God's salvation makes absolutely no difference in the here and now, gave us no evidences of anything, why should I believe Him that there's even a heaven? I know this life is just temporary and won't last forever, but God should still be able to leave us traces in this world. Naturally there'll be a lot of folks against him, take crucifixion for example. However, for the faithful, even if they're blind or crippled, their lives should still be transformed in this world. You shouldn't just have to wait til death in order to get better. Things are getting better the moment we choose to follow Jesus.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Again, why do you guys even bother? lol

Because you don't bother anymore, so they end up having to engage Billi. :p

When everyone put me on ignore here, then it'll be time for Billi to pack up and go. ;)

[FaultyMario]

Again, why do you guys even bother? lol

Well, you see..


Anyway, my point is that religions shouldn't be so private and so imaginary that it's all about the after life.

Nevermind.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Ok, but still wish to add...

As part of body of Christ, my plan is to do what Jesus would do. Of course Jesus for sure would be much less annoying than Billi, but I'm just trying to aim for perfection, I know I'm way short of perfection at the moment... but at least within this life time, it'll just be an exercise to self improve to become more Christ-like and hopefully also impact this world in a more positive way.

Those conservative supreme court justices probably thought they're making a positive impact for Jesus too as they overturn Roe... I do not know with 100% certainty if that's really what Jesus wanted, but I do believe with 100% certainty that God will only allow things to happen if He can extract some benefit out of it.

Take the crucifixion for example. Who'd think it'll be possible to save the world by dying on a cross? Who'd think that Nazis and concentration camps actually help made the restoration of Israel possible? What people meant for evil, God can always turn it around for good. God indeed does work in mysterious ways, even in this world.

[Dicknose]

(snippets)
it should not only make some difference in this world, but also improve this world.

In worlds who'd humbly follow Him, things should become better than before. Otherwise what's the point?

Wow... you expect your life here to be better because god comes and helps you, I presume you mean in physical way. You want the santa claus god.

Shouldn't it be better because you and others help make it better. I thought he was like the coach that instructs and inspires the players, but its totally up to them to play on the field (where the coach doesn't go).

[Dicknose]

but I do believe with 100% certainty that God will only allow things to happen if He can extract some benefit out of it.

Yeah that's the "gods a cunt" theory.
He lets horrible things happen because of his mysterious ways. Kids starve, die, get molested etc. Plenty of good people live tough lives, plenty of terrible people live good lives. And god just lets it happen.

You can't say he has 100% control and then ignore the bad shit while claiming good stuff.
Either he doesn't interfere in everything or he is responsible for allowing terrible stuff to happen.
Oh but you will claim these bad things lead to better overall outcomes... doesn't help the molested and dead kids.
Yeah an all powerful god who gets involved is a cunt.

[JoeW]

Yeah that's the "gods a cunt" theory.
He lets horrible things happen because of his mysterious ways. Kids starve, die, get molested etc. Plenty of good people live tough lives, plenty of terrible people live good lives. And god just lets it happen.

You can't say he has 100% control and then ignore the bad shit while claiming good stuff.
Either he doesn't interfere in everything or he is responsible for allowing terrible stuff to happen.
Oh but you will claim these bad things lead to better overall outcomes... doesn't help the molested and dead kids.
Yeah an all powerful god who gets involved is a cunt.

Fuckin A right brother. Praying to God to have a 6yr old child not die from brain cancer…why did God allow such an innocent creature to get brain cancer in the first place? In the end the praying didn’t help btw.

[Tom Servo]

https://www.theonion.com/god-answers-prayers-of-paralyzed-little-boy-1819564974

[G'day Mate]

An old favourite of mine ...

https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-36da4f539f51df87856ae220a0997788

[Crazed_Insanity]

Wow... you expect your life here to be better because god comes and helps you, I presume you mean in physical way. You want the santa claus god.

Shouldn't it be better because you and others help make it better. I thought he was like the coach that instructs and inspires the players, but its totally up to them to play on the field (where the coach doesn't go).

Did I ever say that I believe in doing nothing and just let Jesus do everything to make my life better?

Did the westerners do absolutely nothing and it was all Jesus that helped the west dominate the world?

I don’t recall saying that.

Kingdom of god is at hand meant we need to grasp it by faith. When kingdom of god is in me, then I can help myself get better and consequently help others get better and together we can help make a better world.

Jesus the coach did physically enter and play on the field 2000 years ago.

Now if God the coach wants something done but there are no players available to do the job, I have no doubt he will enter the game to play again.

[Crazed_Insanity]

An old favourite of mine ...

https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-36da4f539f51df87856ae220a0997788

The subsequent posts can be summarized by this pic I suppose…

Like I’ve mentioned before, God is prolife and prochoice. As humanity makes poor choices, God will allow him to suffer the consequences. Prodigal sons dad let him make his choice and let him face the consequences of his choice.

Our future generations didn’t pollute this world, and if we don’t repent and fix things, they will end up suffering for our sins. Yeah, it’s not fair, but that’s life in this world. If Adam and Eve chose wisely and never disobeyed God, as long as we all choose to live life Gods way inside Eden, I’m pretty sure there won’t be any children with cancers or disabilities or being hungry. If we’ve obeyed and followed God faithfully and we’re still encountering these BS suffering, then you guys have valid points.

In a fallen world, where we can make choices against God, why do you expect everything to be smooth sailing? God did not create a ‘fallen’ world. The world only ‘fell’ thru A&E’s disobedience.

Just as our future generations suffering in climate crisis, should they blame God or perhaps they really should be blaming us?

After you buy a car and refuse to read the users manual and follow its instructions on how to use and maintain… and when something goes wrong, does it really make sense to blame the manufacturer?

Pretty much all of our world’s troubles are caused by us humans. Perhaps only natural disasters can be Gods fault?

The fact that we haven’t blown it to pieces yet is probably because of God’s behind the scene protection. ;)

If an asteroid is about to wipe us out before Jesus returns, surely God has to intervene if SpaceX couldn’t save us or move us to Mars in time… ;)

[G'day Mate]

If Adam and Eve chose wisely and never disobeyed God, as long as we all choose to live life Gods way inside Eden, I’m pretty sure there won’t be any children with cancers or disabilities or being hungry.

"Created sick, commanded to be sound".

That's fucked up. Why do you worship him?

[Tom Servo]

And that the children are the ones suffering cancer and disabilities because the adults disobeyed god, the adults that god created in his image. How fucked up is that?

[G'day Mate]

I think I asked a question recently about whether those adults were even capable of understanding why it was wrong to eat the fruit, or what it meant to be wrong, if they didn't have the knowledge the fruit itself provided!

[Crazed_Insanity]

"Created sick, commanded to be sound".

That's fucked up. Why do you worship him?

I don’t understand how my post resulted in this quote you made.

I don’t even understand what commanded to be sound means ?

[Crazed_Insanity]

And that the children are the ones suffering cancer and disabilities because the adults disobeyed god, the adults that god created in his image. How fucked up is that?

Pretty fucked up to blame a god you don’t believe in when our future generations suffer thru climate crisis we created too.

Made in gods image means we’re not actually god… only carbon copies who could live and love like god or screw up like humans. When A&E made the choice to disobey god, why is it God’s fault?

A&E fucked up, not God. You atheists can’t keep on trying to shift all problems to God you know. A&E can choose, and different choices will result in different outcome.

Prodigal son could decide to blame his dad all the way to the end and starve to death, but what good would that do?

[Crazed_Insanity]

I think I asked a question recently about whether those adults were even capable of understanding why it was wrong to eat the fruit, or what it meant to be wrong, if they didn't have the knowledge the fruit itself provided!

I don’t think anyone can answer your questions fully based only on the 1st couple chapters in genesis. Perhaps only god himself can answer fully.

Anyway, do you understand why it was wrong? Would you not eat from the tree of knowledge?

[G'day Mate]

I don’t understand how my post resulted in this quote you made.

I don’t even understand what commanded to be sound means ?

That's a quote from a poem that Christopher Hitchens used to use. Link (https://www.poetryoutloud.org/poem/chorus-sacerdotum/). I think it's related to what you say about "there would be no children with cancer", but never mind.

My question though is why you would worship a god who continually punishes humanity for the the supposed wrongdoings of our ancestors?

[G'day Mate]

I don’t think anyone can answer your questions fully based only on the 1st couple chapters in genesis. Perhaps only god himself can answer fully.

Anyway, do you understand why it was wrong? Would you not eat from the tree of knowledge?

Ok so now we're at the point where you're accepting punishment for something our ancestors did based on an explanation that doesn't even make sense (or we can't understand, or perhaps God can't be bothered explaining), so why worship the guy?

[Crazed_Insanity]

That's a quote from a poem that Christopher Hitchens used to use. Link (https://www.poetryoutloud.org/poem/chorus-sacerdotum/). I think it's related to what you say about "there would be no children with cancer", but never mind.

My question though is why you would worship a god who continually punishes humanity for the the supposed wrongdoings of our ancestors?

So are you telling me that since our children will suffer thru climate crisis in the future, created by both theists and atheists, our children need to all become atheists as they suffer on this burning earth because becoming atheists will help them endure their sufferings better?

[Crazed_Insanity]

My question though is why you would worship a god who continually punishes humanity for the the supposed wrongdoings of our ancestors?
because I don’t want to repeat the same mistake made by A&E.

I want to be better so that my future offsprings won’t have to suffer because of my own stupidity.


Ok so now we're at the point where you're accepting punishment for something our ancestors did based on an explanation that doesn't even make sense (or we can't understand, or perhaps God can't be bothered explaining), so why worship the guy?
Because if humanity failed to fix our climate for one reason or another, I’m hoping He would fix it assuming that he doesn’t want us extinct yet! ;)

I worship the guy because I think he not only has the power to fix things but also loves us very much.

Suffering in this fallen world is now commonplace and could often be used to make us better. We all suffer thru exercises, studying/practicing/training and suffered thru a lot of things to get better. You can blame god for all those sufferings too if you want, but why blame all that on somebody you don’t even believe in? :p

Both Jesus and the Jews didn’t have to suffer thru the crucifixion and the Romans and Nazis if they just accepted Jesus in the 1st place. But no, we have to reject Jesus… so Jews ended up suffering for a long time. Jesus suffered too.

We should just blame Jesus for coming in the 1st place for causing so much suffering on himself and everyone else? That sounds reasonable to you?

I actually appreciate Jesus for coming. Pretty sure this world would have even greater meaningless sufferings without him.

Remember, lots of atheists believe humanity needs to be wiped out in order to save planet earth. Humans really should be the ones being blamed. Not the invisible god! :p

However, placing blame is pointless. God not only wants to save earth, god wants to save humanity. We are all currently the cancer destroying this world, but god is doing his best trying to save all of us, without forcing us… because he’s not only prolife but also prochoice!

This world is now the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Jesus is the new tree of life.

Choose wisely mate! God loves you, believe it or not. That love isn’t faith based.

[G'day Mate]

I don't have to believe in something to ask someone else questions about their belief.

I also thing the best explanation for suffering, global warming, etc. is that no god exists. Or at least not one that cares and is worth of all the time spent on him/her/sklee.

[Crazed_Insanity]

God wants his children to learn to be responsible for their own shit and not just magically wipe away all the mess so that the spoiled kid would end up creating more messes again and again. God's children need to grow up too and not be a childish kid for all eternity. We need to be child-like with our hearts, but we shouldn't be childish like that.

Like I said, Jesus didn’t have to come to suffer on the cross. If I were Jesus, I’d certainly forget about humanity and just wipe them out or just ignore them and let them rot away.

Maybe I’ll die for my wife and kid, not sure I’d sacrifice myself like that for anyone else…

So I’ve concluded that Jesus must love humanity enough to suffer on the cross like that?

Anyway, I’m given the opportunity to eat from this new tree of life. I don’t want to repeat the same mistake Adam made. Feel free to choose freely. God's salvation is both pro eternal life and also pro choice. You don't have to have it if you don't want it. If you think you can do better than God, by all means give that a try. If you can really do better than God, I'm sure He'll be very proud of you. I just don't think I can do better than God.

Another thing with humanity is that we can get too proud easily. When we're suffering or handicapped or addicted or bound by something..., it's easy to try to call out to God for help. Once situations normalizes and as we continue to develop at a higher level, often times our egos would end up getting too bloated and we'd forget to be careful... and then begin rotting to the core. Whether it's bible or secular history, plenty of cases of civilizations collapsing after peaking. Most famous case in the bible is probably King David? A great godly man after God's own heart. From a shepherd boy who his own dad would often forget about his existence... God helped him become king of Israel. He was a great king... but at the height of his career, somehow he's forgotten about God... perhaps Bethsheba was really just too awesome to watch while taking a bath. David would end up taking another man's wife and then kill that man... all because he thought he can. His pride probably caused him to fall? Young David would never do that!

Modern day equivalent of King of Israel David would probably be the 'King of the world' America... Had America been a better king, our world would've been way better than what it is now... At the moment, both the left AND RIGHT are drifting away from God. :(

Anyway, I'm rambling on for too long... I hope I'm answering clearly and I hope you can see where I'm coming from? I know you probably won't agree with me, but that's okay... we all have to make our own life choices. We are responsible for our own lives and our future generation's lives. Choose wisely mate. You know, either way, we're all going to suffer in this world. I think we can all agree on that. I just thought suffering with God is better than suffering hopelessly without God.

If we could magically remove all gods and all religions and all religious folks on this world, do you really believe sufferings will end?

[Yw-slayer]

Pigs and mud, man. Don't bother.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Resistance is futile YW. You'll be in my prayers forever and ever and you'll end up making China free again!

Actually I was just kidding about the futile part. The choice is entirely yours. :)

[G'day Mate]

If we could magically remove all gods and all religions and all religious folks on this world, do you really believe sufferings will end?

No, I just said the best explanation for that is that no gods exist. We'd save some time that could be put to good use though! (but it wouldn't be)

[Dicknose]

Billi - you say god gets involved, that's why the West and in particular the USA are "better".

How does he do this?
And why does he not do things like remove cancer from these places?
Heck why doesn't he do something to stop pedophiles using his name to have the power to groom and harm children?

Just seems odd that he does mystery little bits of help to make christian nations better (as long as they are not in 3rd world places!) but wont help the innocent.

And I dont think people are saying "if we could show god doesn't exist that suffering would go" - just that the concept of a loving and "involved" god seem incompatible with the horrors we see in this world, especially from "acts of god".

Thats why I can see the "god is just interested in souls" is a logical model. Doesn't get directly involved, but wants people to be good/better. Rewards those that are (and depending on your model - only if they also worship this god). That would easily explain why "acts of god" are random and often harmful, because they just happen, the deity doesn't stop/cause them.
It also gets rid of the horrible idea that people are successful because they are blessed by god. This also implies those that suffer are somehow deserving of this punishment. Yeah Trump is clearly blessed and the dying kid is not worthy. This "blessed model" does seem to be popular amongst well off privileged people who like to justify their own lack of compassion.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I don’t think Trump is blessed. So I hope you understand your ‘blessed model’ isn’t quite compatible with my ‘blessed model’.

Anyway, my understanding is that our current world is in a fallen state because Adam fell. The world was not initially created this way according to the Bible.

It is because of the ‘fall’, the world now is able to allow cancers, wars, or whatever other disasters natural or not. Most notably, the lost of eternal life! Entropy is introduced into this world! Or the barrier against entropy is gone…

I know it’s sad to have children with cancer , but every life on earth is already a miracle! Earth could very well end up like Venus or Mars! Unable to sustain life at all, let alone allow a cancerous kid to be born!

It’s easy to compare ourselves to others and feel sorry for ourselves, but we seriously need to be grateful for every moment that we have.

In this fallen world, even Jesus himself could come and be completely innocent, but then got beat the crap out of and then crucified.

Yeah, God the Father appeared very much like a cunt and did absolutely nothing to save His supposedly beloved son. Why was God so mean?

I’ve already given you guys the answer, but you refuse to accept such cuntish answer. What else can I say?

Jesus Christ on that cross represents the tree of life V2.0.

Eat from it and you can have eternal life. If you’re happy with this one life you have and wish to live it in a way you want, that’s okay too.

Btw, I don’t believe Americans or white people are better in any way physically in terms of DNA make up, I’m just saying those who heard the gospel and put it into action 1st, seems to have gotten better 1st at living their lives closer to their potentials. As Europeans and Americans reject the gospel, their societies appear to decline as well. China with its plentiful resources and population naturally catching up to and challenging the Western worlds is "natural" order of things. For America(a nation with relative so few people) to dominate the world for so much and so long since WWII just seems a bit 'super natural' to me.

Yeah, correlation isn’t necessary causation. I know, but correlation seems very very strong, at least to me.

[JoeW]

What in the actual fuck?

[Crazed_Insanity]

Sorry, I don’t understand your question. :p

[Yw-slayer]

What in the actual fuck?

Wordsalad, man.

[JoeW]

Wordsalad, man.

Haha! Good one. I just shot a little drink out of my nose on that one.

[Dicknose]

For America(a nation with relative so few people) to dominate the world

You do know that the USA is the 3rd largest population....
Easily the largest of the first world nations. And one the largest by area, with lots of resources. Easier to access/use that vast area than say Canada.
The USA has lots of reasons why it has been the dominant world power for 70 years - having "relative so few people" has not held them back.

Its not like we are talking about New Zealand being the dominant power.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Of course land mass is also important. That’s why Japan invaded China for natural resources…

But anyway, I’m basically comparing population size of China/India vs USA. China and India had way longer history, why aren’t they part of the 1st world nations? How does a country become a 1st world nation? My “hypothesis” is that faith could make a difference. As faith level of a nation’s population rise, that can perhaps help it develop faster/better. As the level go down, then we tend to see less ‘super natural’ developments.

As Americans’ faith level decline, with China catching up to challenge America’s supremacy makes more sense. Of course Chairman Mao did screwed China up big time, but even before the commies, China and India were still no match against the ‘Christian invaders’…

Now of course I don’t believe Christian should invaded anybody. They should only be spreading the good news. America is also making the same mistakes today, doing BS things all over the world…

When you get too powerful and prideful, you begin the play God rather than believe in God. As such pride rise, a fall will be inevitable. Europeans fell. Perhaps america will make the same mistake?

As China rise to the top, I’d prefer China becoming the next Christian power rather than commie in name only dicktator power.

I wouldn’t want someone who doesn’t even believe in God to play God.