Politics

[MR2 Fan]

I still use Twitter but trying to move to BlueSky....the problem is people use that or Threads or Mastadon. Mastadon confuses me

[Tom Servo]

Yeah, I can't even deal with Mastodon, and honestly Threads is also a shitshow for me. Threads seems like a condensed version of the non-chronological feed I get on Facebook, which I already didn't want. I just see a ton of people I don't know or care about, and while people have told me that it gets better over time, I didn't have that problem with Bluesky (or Twitter for that matter).

My strategy moving to Bluesky has been to look for people I still follow on Twitter and see if they're on Bluesky. If they are, I unfollow on Twitter and follow on Bluesky. It hasn't been perfect - some of them still post more on Twitter than Bluesky, but it's gotten me basically using Bluesky about 80% of the time and then just scanning Twitter for the rest.

It is jarring how much more of a shitshow Twitter is now when you have that contrast. For example, I see way fewer nazis over on Bluesky.

Speaking of, they're also changing the block button on Twitter to make it so that people you've blocked can still see your posts, they just can't respond to them. That said, now they can screenshot them and still hassle you. Best joke though - "Now Elon can see what his kids are saying about him."

[Tom Servo]

Aside on Threads - I have an Instagram account I use almost entirely to do the promo posts for our pub trivia night that net us 10 points each week. I actually pwned it from someone else that signed up with my email and now I just post a "having a great time at trivia night at wherever".

I went on its Threads account, and it's all bots telling me how sexy they think my photos are. I have no photos on threads. I have heard that my lips are quite nice, and also my legs. There are like 4-5 messages a day sent to me. I have never posted on there.

So...pretty much immediate shitshow.

[G'day Mate]

Guys ... how is this election even close? I don't get it.

[Tom Servo]

I mean, you got me. You've got a dude swaying to Ave Maria for like 40 minutes.

My only saving grace is that I think most polls are questionable at best. I mean, they all told us that Hillary was going to win, right?

Not to give too much credence to the things that Billi has said (which, admittedly, I see a lot of right-wing news folks saying the same thing, so weird how Billi keeps claiming he's not right-wing yet echoes their claims, Bret Baier basically repeated Billi's posts), but like...do I think half of this country is full of imbeciles? It's not half - we couldn't even manage 2/3 of the voting public to vote in the last one, and even then Trump lost the popular vote. But it's still an alarming amount of people who are like "yeah, he's mentally addled, but he also hates immigrants, so..."

So I don't know how to answer him. I would bet that there is an alarmingly large portion of the American populace that is saying "I'm not racist, but...." and then will say some racist shit. And it'll be couched, "I know lots of great black people", but then it'll all fall under "and all the crimes are theirs." And maybe that's the thing, it's always couched. My father-in-law's brother (uncle-in-law?) would talk about how hard immigrants from Mexico worked, but would also talk about them as "beaners" that "would work for cheap." Those are direct quotes. He's passed now, but before he died he was a big time Trump supporter.

I dunno. You get a lot of "I'm not racist, but..." responses out of a lot of people that you're then challenged to be like "is half the country a bunch of racist nazis?" I'm not sure they're nazis, but I wouldn't put it past them being at least casually racist, especially if Nextdoor is anything to judge by.

[Tom Servo]

Maybe to go a little farther with this, and to explicitly include Billi, who I will also ignore -- he invoked the disruption that an immigrant population might bring on a town like Springfield, OH.

The town of Springfield, OH, was dying. The town of Springfield, OH, has explicitly pointed out that it's not been disruptive, and that Haitian immigrants have been a positive thing for the town. The governor has repeated that

But....it's black people and they've invaded the town. And despite pointing out the former things to Billi, even he hasn't conceded (at least that I've seen) that his concerns about the influx of immigrants isn't the big issue that he initially claimed they are.

And, (at least that I've seen), he has not conceded that the influx of rich white tech-bros might be even more disruptive to towns like Truckee. Especially in the way that Vance wants to try to couch things, like housing costs.

It's this casual racism. It's couched in the "I know the good ones", but it's still underlying. When Trump runs an ad showing a bunch of Hispanic guys saying "these will be your landlords if Harris is elected", that's racism. And as much as the right would like to pretend like racism is not an issue in this country, it is clearly a bigger one than we all want to admit we have.

I mean, both Trump and Vance tried to make a campaign point of whether Harris is Black or Indian, like somehow mixed-race people don't exist. They (thankfully) learned pretty quickly that that was dumber than fuck, but they still tried, and that says something.

[Rare White Ape]

Guys ... how is this election even close? I don't get it.

It’s because Harris is lukewarm and has so far failed to capture the left vote. The Democrats are sliding up to former Republicans because the party has moved right to fill the void left when Trumpism dragged the Republicans further to the right. There is no viable alternative centre-left party in the United States any more.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Like I said before, when we live comfortably inside our bubble and refuse to venture out, it’s only natural we don’t get what’s wrong with the folks in the other bubble!

As far as racism is concerned, we are all somewhat racist, but surely no one would openly admit it. I’m sure if you ask Hitler, he’d deny that he’s a racist! Well, I dunno that really, maybe he will proudly admit that he’s a racist, but point is most normal people won’t want to admit to it.

Now, must we continue talking about racism? Do special things to remind ourselves of it? Like Black history month. Why not have a Jewish history month? Chinese railroad builders month? Japanese encampment month? Native American land got stolen month? Continual reminder that how white people have wronged various groups? Is that really productive?

Democrats can be racists too, it’s not something exclusive to conservatives…

I do kinda think MAGA folks consists of mostly underprivileged poorer white folks, they are angry that they’re being overlooked. It’s not them who caused police brutality. It’s not them who exploited cheap Mexican labor. Their lives are just as fucked! Finally, an orange man comes along who actually pays attention to these dumbass redneck hillbillies! :p

I think the left is a bit too preoccupied with rights. Women’s rights, minorities rights… not that they’re unimportant, but they don’t put food on the table. Trump is literally ‘catering’ to people’s needs, not just wants!

Had the inflation reduction act really lowered inflation, Kamala would have better chance now. You can’t ask a bunch of hungry people who needs saving to tighten their belts to save the planet!

[Tom Servo]

I think the left is a bit too preoccupied with rights. Women’s rights, minorities rights…

Well, I kinda think you can understand the entirety of Billi's worldview from this excerpt.

[Crazed_Insanity]

You may think I’m against women and minorities and use it as an excuse to hate me, but fact remains that as average Americans are struggling to pay rent and put food on the table, some of them just won’t care about other people’s rights until they themselves are taken care of.

Take care of our own homeless folks before we take care of immigrants. We need to set our priorities better. You can accuse me of being a racist all you want, but that won’t help Kamala’s poll #s and you’ll continue to not understand why this race is this close!

[Yw-slayer]

Lolllllll

[Tom Servo]

And you can continue to think that someone disagreeing with you means they hate you and then blame the wrong people for the issues of struggling to pay rent or put food on the table. Private equity and short term rentals are tying up housing stock while NIMBYs fight any more housing being built and grocery store chains are consolidating and then raising prices under the guise of inflation, but sure, it's Obama phones and those pesky women wanting bodily autonomy that are causing our problems.

Anyway... (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/scapegoat) I don't think that immigrants are the reason that rent on a two bedroom apartment in my part of town is $5k.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Unlike Trump, I'm not blaming our problems on immigrants or whatever Trump’s blaming on. However, Trump is focusing on average Americans more immediate and practical problems. Whereas Dems are more into ‘loftier’ goals. Save refugees, save the marginalized, save Ukraine, save Israel, save the world, save democracy, but when average Americans are worried about their own lives, no wonder Trump’s messages, even if based on bogus lies, resonate better than dem's! Even if for the wrong reasons, Trump promised to save them and make better lives for them! This shouldn’t be so hard to understand.

If Dems would actually solve the inflationary problems 1st and then redirect their efforts to minority rights, wouldn’t that be a much better approach? Rather than sending foreign aids, why not aid average Americans more? I don’t meant send Americans money, but at least spend the money to fight problems on American soil. Try to lower people’s costs or help raise their wages… whatever the reasons, try doing something! Instead of Trump blaming immigrants and you just blame Trump… and all those blames still won’t solve the actual problems average folks are facing.

GOP are not saints too, I think they are being stupid the same way by screwing with Roe v Wade too. It’s something not broken but they insist on messing it up out of spite, like I said, that will be something that’ll come back to haunt them later.

I think we are in an unusual situation for this election cycle. We've all been thru 4 years of Trump... and we've all been thru 4 years of Biden/Harris. Neither candidates are totally new. We all know what they'll likely do in the next 4 years based on their past 4 years.

Some like Trump, some hates him.

Seriously, do you like Biden/Harris?

I never liked them. I was okay with them initially because I yearned for normalcy after the pandemic as well. Biden was definitely the guy to help us get back to normal..., but besides his old age, today, I really don't like the way he handled those wars... I'm okay with either win or lose, I just don't think we should continue to sponsor them to go on forever. Anyway, I didn't like both of those 4 years, that's why I'll just bear another 4 years of whoever wins the WH. Hopefully somebody better will come along after 4 years...

Like I said, at least I think JD Vance is better than Trump. I think Walz is probably better than Kamala as well... I think this election cycle gotta be worse than the W vs Gore match up. Not looking forward to either one winning...

[Tom Servo]

It's weird how much of what people want from Trump sounds a lot like socialism.

[Crazed_Insanity]

After WW1, Germany was obliterated. National Socialist party promised to make Germany great again! Things were pretty great for a while until they lost WW2.

China had been occupied and colonized left and right by various nations during the Ching, and its last dynasty. Eventually poor china became communistic because most everyone just ended up so poor... and it's easy to brainwash poor people into embracing communism. It is also trying its best making itself great again, even if it means using capitalistic measures! ;)

We need capitalism in order to go up and grow, but we need socialism as safety net when things are going down. It's just like left and right, we don't live on ovals... that we only need to turn in one direction. As we navigate thru life, we typically need to turn both right and left in order to get somewhere. We also can't just stick with capitalism and think safety nets are evil... likewise, we can't just feel entitled to live on safety nets forever and ever. All these -isms or tools are not inherently good or evil, but it's our misguided love for them that end up creating evils... Money is the most obvious example. It is not evil, it's our love for money that end up creating all kinds of evils. I don't fully understand why conservative tend to see socialism as evil, but I guess they just wish to work hard and make a living with their own hands. They think it's shameful to accept handouts? I guess it's just harder for some people to receive help? Plus, when it comes to helping people, it'd be nice if we can decide that for ourselves? Rather than governments taking my money and then decide to go help those who I don't think deserve help?

Anyway, I don't believe conservatives feel entitled for handouts, they just want a decent job and be able to provide food on the table. Not to be jobless and be addicted to fentanyl while being tagged as having privileged lives because they're white.

[Tom Servo]

I've been thinking about your gist here. That Harris/Walz are spending too much time talking about people's rights and that Trump instead tells them that they'll be able to afford their rent/food. And you're right in some ways.

But you're also 100% the problem.

Trump's already had four years to do this and he didn't. He makes pie in the sky promises that he doesn't deliver on. He'll tell you all day long that he delivered a great economy or that he'll fix your problems but he doesn't actually say how. He just lies to your face. And despite you already getting burned once, you're thinking his lies might actually be more meaningful now. From what I read, you would prefer if people just spew bullshit about how they'll fix all your problems and it'll be painless to do so rather than actually improve things for everyone.

You complain that democrats won't fix inflationary problems, but they did. Inflation rates are back to what they were in the Trump era. Inflation spiked worldwide because of Covid. It's now at 2.4% percent for this year, which is on par with the 2.1% average for the Trump era. The couple of years before Trump came into office saw sub-1% inflation. In the meantime, inflation is part of the federal reserve's problem, they aren't part of dealing with people's rights. You don't have to do one or the other. You can do both. It's not "we'll all be broke unless we take these people's rights away."

And I think that's the problem here. You've somehow equated the two. That you can't have sound economic policy without fucking over everybody who isn't a straight white dude. That promises are better than reality. I get this impression that there's a belief that Trump has this magic wand that will fix things. Tariffs will be great and not do what they have historically done, which is drive up prices and spark trade wars. That there won't be counter-tariffs that hurt American industry. That he can promise a tax rebate for a generator if you're in an area hit by hurricanes and doesn't need to figure out how to pay for it. That he'll be able to round up 20 million people living in the US, some of which are here completely legally, and it won't absolute fuck the economy and be a humanitarian disaster in the meantime. That you have an elite force of commandos that could somehow infiltrate Hamas and free all the hostages all set to some Kenny Loggins soundtrack with no repercussions. That if that were possible, for some reason Biden chose *not* to do that, rather than it being a movie fantasy.

I beg you to go watch the Monorail episode of The Simpsons.

EDIT: I just stumbled across this article right after writing this. I think maybe it makes my point better than I did. https://wapo.st/4dXA9BD

[Crazed_Insanity]

And you're right in some ways.

But you're also 100% the problem.



1st off, I need to understand what you meant there. Why is Billi 100% of the problem. If Billi drops dead, why would 100% of problems in US disappear? Anyway, I’m sure I’m probably not understanding that correctly, but just want to make sure I understand fully what you meant.

[Tom Servo]

I mean that your take on this, that somehow him lying to you that he'll solve all your problems is better than people fighting for other people's rights is 100% the problem. I may have worded it poorly, but I think your take on this is exactly the issue. You've got someone who lies constantly while promising shit he can't deliver and them blaming it on everyone else, and now you're blaming people literally just wanting rights as being the problem.

To be fair though, I did word that incorrectly. I think your thought process is the main problem that we have right now, but you, specifically, are not the only problem we have.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Glad you cleared that up. I know you probably don’t hate me that much because most who hate who put me on ignore have no problems not looking back… ;)

Anyway, this particular discussion started when G’day was wondering why is this race so close… regardless of whether if the reason I’m give is right or wrong, it’s still a reason. It’s not like you guys have better reasons.

I’m not part of MAGA base, so I can’t really speak for them and Don’t definitely could be wrong. If Trump has a bit more integrity, I’d definitely vote for him. I do agree with you that we often cannot trust what he says. That’s why I can’t bear to vote for him.

However, after 4 years of Trump, as lame as that was, I clearly recall gas prices were lower during his term because I leased an EV and then gas prices dropped below my projected values… making my EV lease not as worthwhile financially. Lucky for me, after I returned the EV in 2019, gas prices soared again. But thankfully working at home was available so I could save gas prices that way.

So that’s from personal experience, not relying on government published inflation data. People can feel the hit on their wallet. They don’t need government telling them data is telling us that you are wrong and crazy and a racist!

Based on Trump’s 4 years observed thru my eyes, I think I trust him more after 4 years. It’s still not enough trust for me to vote for him, but just a bit more trust than 2016. Why? Because I really think world was safer when he was in office. The military conflicts he started, killed some terrorists like dogs and nothing dragged on forever. Also, in Jan6, when 0 shots were actually fired from the ‘insurrection’, that was really way better than my original assessment of the situation…, I was expecting the beginning of civil war 2!

If God really spared the guy to save America, the. God should be able to get him elected without my help. So I’m waiting and seeing how things will develop…

Anyway, I know blaming illegal immigrants is stupid, but at least the MAGA base felt heard… felt like Trump understands their pain… whereas Dems just want to blame them for being too privileged and too racists. When Kamala didn’t offer anything concrete about easing inflation, why would they vote for her? Even if Trump has all the wrong reasons?

[Tom Servo]

Man, I almost thought you were starting to make sense (if not misremembering things) but then the whole thing about no shots during the insurrection, with insurrection in quotes...

Like...you get so close and then you just become a QAnon-adjacent Twitter poster. I do not understand it. I will never understand it.

But, to your point about forever wars: He said he was going to get out of Afghanistan. In four years, he failed to do that. Now, you might disagree with how we got out, but that's four years of war that he didn't stop even after he told you he was going to. That's actually a conflict we were directly involved in, as opposed to the two major ones now that we are not directly involved in.

I get you have vibes here, and I will have no effect, but just think about what you're saying and maybe reflect a bit. As mentioned before - in the movies, maybe we have the ability to dictate how the rest of the world works. But in the meantime, there are 100+ sovereign nations that we can't just waltz into and tell them what to do. I know your 80's style movie fantasy of what would happen with Israel and Palestine, but I shudder to think of what your solution is for Ukraine and Russia.

[Tom Servo]

I apologize to y'all, btw.

I once went to see my favorite comedian, Dave Attell, perform live. At the front of the stage was a group of four octogenarian women, one of whom was having a birthday. They sat there stonefaced the entire time while Dave was audibly talking through his process. Do I tone my material down? Do I crank it to 11? He kept trying things, and literally no reaction from these women other than disappointment. And it threw his entire night off.

I somehow have this thing with Billi. And, much like my penchant for insanely spicy hot sauce, I never learn my lesson and it burns me later on.

So again, apologies. For some reason I think I can go between like "I get where you're coming from" and "what in the hell is the matter with you" and in the meantime I learn nothing. I'm going to try to be better, and I encourage you all to tell me when I'm being dumb. I don't know why I think I can get through to him when years upon years have taught me I can't, but for some reason I keep thinking I can. Gonna put up a post-it on my monitor, Memento Style, saying "you'll never reach him" and hope that suffices.

[Rare White Ape]

You’re being dumb

[Tom Servo]

Word

[sandydandy]

I was gonna say…

[Tom Servo]

I hear it. I dunno why I think I'll get through to him, but I will try to be better.

[Yw-slayer]

And Team America Seal Team Six dude and others like him get to vote lol

[Crazed_Insanity]

Speaking of unable to get thru to each other, I recently saw a Ted talk about it. That was enlightening at least for me!


https://youtu.be/lg48Bi9DA54?si=h4SqSWBFBoiAyw0y

However, not sure he’s saying supercommunicators will be able to get thru to everyone. Surely that’s not possible because not even Almighty God can get thru to everyone!

Anyway, I’m in this thread not really to get thru to anybody because I really don’t have a firm political position anyways. Like I’ve said before, I think I’m politically bi… all I’m worrying about is political polarization will become the end of us.

I will not bother with anymore of my responses and end up making you feel dumb. Hope at least you’ll enjoy that video. Have a nice weekend guys! :)

[Tom Servo]

I'm down with him getting to vote. While I'd like to see the electoral college abolished, I am firmly behind the idea that everyone gets to vote. I disagree with Billi on a lot of things, but his vote should always count just as much as mine or as much as Elon's or as much as someone on death row's. It's not always the greatest system, but it's generally the least worst one, and if you want a system that won't oppress people, letting the oppressed have an equal voice is a good way to do that.

[Yw-slayer]

You are certainly entitled to your view

Speaking of views, in the meantime, ONE WONDERS why there are no western msm reports on the June 2024 sentencing of Jordanian journalist Hiba Abu Taha to 1 year in jail for an investigative report. Whereas charges against journalists in SOME OTHER PLACES are always covered and shouted about ad nauseam.

HMMMMMM

YESSSSS

[FaultyMario]

did you guys hear about the (almost) Nobel prize in economics going to an economist, a political scientist and a historian for their work on coalitions and institutions?

long story short: their premise is that economic development is tied to the character and quality of the institutions that support markets¹, and these institutions are, in turn, the result of how governing coalitions are formed, and how inclusive and open they are and how much accountability and transparency is built into their decision making arrangements.

so i think there, in those Nobel prize winners' work is one explanation of why Trump keeps winning: some people don't want them niggers and beaners as part of the winning coalition, they don't want to pay their rent to the ragheads; and some other people, while not so openly afraid of us caramel-skinned children see no reason to change the coalition.

even if the world changed long ago.

I, for one, welcome or new Chinese overlords.

[FaultyMario]

¹ markets are just signals aggregators. they are not meant to regulate anything, much less themselves. "let markets regulate themselves" is a just euphemism for "let's not anger the lords of the manor".

[Crazed_Insanity]

I think self regulating market can only work with sufficient competition. As soon as we have a monopoly that’s too big to fail, no amount of government regulation can prevent disaster. Take Boeing for example, its fall could’ve been sooner without Airbus. FAA is useless as Boeing becomes too big to fail.

In the beginning, Boeing had competitions. McDonnell Douglas and Lockheed. That’s when Boeing made the best planes. Of course as competitors either got out of the market or absorbed by the company, the rot inevitably happen.

BTW, US government is also in a position that’s too big to fail for most of the world…

Lastly, I just want to say if we can swap out all the white folks in positions of power, we will likely still have racial issues… oppression, etc. our problems are due to inherent problem of human nature rather that because of white people!

[FaultyMario]

markets are not regulatory devices. they can not regulate anything.

[FaultyMario]

capitalism fundamental logic is that of accumulation, hence the most efficient accumulators will prevail.

from experience we know that accumulators can not complete well. thus, the so called free market is a mirage.

competitions need strong "rules", and that means not just the written ruleset but also the arbitrators and the community around them.

so instead of just making shit up, grab either of their three famousbooks. they're pretty light reading.

[MR2 Fan]

Your reminder that in the midst of everything.......Trump is really losing his mind and uh has some envy? Yes, I know he says word salad almost daily, this one I didn't hear about at first and.......I honestly can't make ANY sense of it.


"I mean, you know, this isn’t like Elon with his rocket ships that land within 12 inches on the moon where they wanted to land, or he gets the engines back.

That was the first I realized. I said, ‘Who the hell did that?’ I saw engines about three, four years ago. These things were coming — cylinders, no wings, no nothing, and they’re coming down very slowly, landing on a raft in the middle of the ocean someplace with a circle, boom.

Reminded me of the Biden circles that he used to have, right? He’d have eight circles, and he couldn’t fill them up. But then I heard he beat us with the popular vote. I don’t know. I don’t know. Couldn’t fill up the eight circles. I always loved those circles. They were so beautiful. It was so beautiful to look at. In fact, the person that did that was the best thing about… that level of that circle was great, but they couldn’t get people.

So they used to have the press stand in those circles because they couldn’t get the people. Then I heard we lost. Oh, we lost. Now we’re never going to let that happen again, but we’ve been abused by other countries. We’ve been abused by our own politicians, really more than other countries.”


:erm:

[Yw-slayer]

Yes, the leader of the "rules-based international order" and Seal Team Six dude. Well done Billi and his favourite system of government clap clap.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Compare “covfefe… or Inject bleach!” to that latest new quote… there’s really not much change… :p

Biden’s speech has significantly became way worse compare to the beginning of his term though…

Anyway, I do agree both are way too old. However, it’s seems left is only worrying about Trump’s slurred speech and the right is also only worrying about Biden’s slurred speech. We really need age limit. Just retire ok boomer?

[Crazed_Insanity]

markets are not regulatory devices. they can not regulate anything.

That’s true, markets are not regulators. However, I’d like to add accountability and transparency, along with healthy competition, not to mention minimal government interventions, to have a healthy free market. If such conditions are met, I think at least product prices/quality can be ‘self regulated’ to have lower prices and higher quality?

I think government intervention should mostly be to make sure we no longer have companies that are too big to fail. Once you become too big to fail, time to break up that company.

It’s similar concept politically as well. Dictators are essentially too powerful to fail, if he’s good, things may be fine, but nobody’s that good. That’s why we need to split that power up evenly so each branch of the government could check balance each other.

[MR2 Fan]

At this point I think Billi is trying to become a New York Times reporter by the way he sane-washes everything Trump says

[Crazed_Insanity]

Which part of Trump speech did I try to sane wash for you? Dude, be a bit more objective please. I hate both, that doesn’t make me a MAGA supporter.

I think one of our main problems is that there’s a bipartisan effort that our boomer politicians are all trying to be like Diane Feinstein. Enough zombie politicians already! Go enjoy you retirement rather than fucking up the country.

In case you didn’t get it, yes, Trump should retire too. Time to hand it over to the next generation. It would look better if you do it willfully.

[Yw-slayer]

so instead of just making shit up, grab either of their three famousbooks. they're pretty light reading.

Sadly, many people prefer talking over reading.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Books can brain wash people too! Recall the most famous book in the world? The Bible? ;)

Seriously, I don’t get why people on the right hates socialism and left hates capitalism. Both US and China have demonstrated both are needed at different times in order to grow. We can’t have a pure one or the other and have that work out better. Unlike our presidential candidates, I like both socialism and capitalism.

I’m also a bit at lost with you guys who seem to think it’s acceptable to racially discriminate against white people. If I try to defend them a bit, I get labeled as white supremacist. Likewise say anything not that bad about Trump, then I’m a MAGA supporter.

What kind of books are you guys reading to think since they’re so privileged, it’s okay to discriminate against white people and that’s not a form of racism?

Since when did capitalism become so evil that we need government to step in to limit the amount of money Elon Musk can make after he accomplished all of his performance targets?

As for Trump, clearly he sucks, but he’s not pure evil. After 4 years of Trump, I am less scared of him. At least he has control over his angry base and didn’t shoot up DC, right? Obama couldn’t control the BLM riots, right? Of course can’t blame Obama for the riots, just saying if Trump wish to fan the flame further, he could and insurrection could’ve gotten a lot messier. If it were Hitler or Xi or Putin, I’m sure they would never relinquish power and leveraged his supporters to stay in power.

Anyway, this is not a defense nor endorsement for Trump, of course it should not have happened at all. Just an observation that he may not be that evil.

I respect Trump’s antiestablishment stance, but too bad I just can’t trust him. As for Harris, I don’t like that she’s a puppet of the establishment, and I also don’t trust her.

Our democracy is definitely going thru further growing pains. Being threatened on all sides… whether if we succeed or fail, more books will probably be written about that!

[Yw-slayer]

Lolll "growing" pains, keep inhaling that copium

[Rare White Ape]

Anyway,

[Tom Servo]

As for Darth Vader, clearly he sucks, but he's not pure evil. After 4 years of Vader, I am less scared of him. At least he has control over his death star and didn't destroy the entire planetary system, right? Ben Kenobi couldn't control the rebels, right? Of course, can't blame Kenobi for the rebels, just saying if Vader wish to fan the flame further, he could have done more than just obliterate Tatooine.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Clearly! Anakin Skywalker can be saved! That's the power of love! :)

However, Darth Vader had been put in charge of the Empire for way more than just 4 years though.

Had USA been a powerful good empire or an evil one for our globe? Kicking Nazi's and Japanese's asses was good back in WW2, but invading Iraq over bogus claims was not. I do believe USA has lost her ways. This downward trajectory toward the darkside began long before Trump though. Our democracy had also long been threatened when the system kept on feeding us BS puppet politicians for us to vote on.

I really really wish it's Bernie Sanders vs the establishment... not Trump. At this stage, I really couldn't bring myself to vote for the orange man. However I do secretly wish for the orange man to crush the establishment.

I saw an youtube video of a bunch of latino christians praying over Trump after some rally or conference... that brought a bit of tear in my eyes. I'm still not going to vote for him, but I did say amen. If God is really going to use him, surely God can do it without my vote. In case the orange man is really going to remain as Darth Vader, then at least I didn't vote for the guy.

The race being this close tells us that we have 2 pretty lame candidates.

We don't need MAGA like this nor do we need DNC feeding us BS candidates. Let the primary process work naturally next time please? If there is a next time.

BTW, Trump won the GOP primary process fair and square. He was clearly the people's choice. If DNC didn't interfere, Bernie or Mayor Pete would be the president. Either one should be stronger candidate than Biden/Harris. Puppets don't usually energize people to come out to vote. Most Kamala supporters are not there because they love her, but because they hate Trump. We need candidates people love, not just lesser of the 2 evils. In order for our republic to survive and thrive, we need to be able to pick between greater of the 2 goods!

[Crazed_Insanity]

Lolll "growing" pains, keep inhaling that copium

If we can get thru this and become better, then it'd be growing pains. If we can't get over this, then of course the pain is just sign of old age and we're getting ready to die...

There's really no set age limit for a nation... it's all up to us. We could continue to grow endlessly if we continue to act justly, love mercy and humbly follow God. If you just can't believe in God, hope at least you can find something good to humbly follow. Point is pride will eventually doom you... cause you to think you can play God. Of course once we become cancerous like that and decide to do whatever the hell we want, then we'll surely die. I'm hoping we can soon pop our gigantic red and blue tumors that are growing out of control...

Until the United States of America be able to live up to its name soon, I guess it'll be the end of us soon.

BTW, absolute power corrupts absolutely. So until Xi relinquishes absolute power, CCP will likely die before USA. :p

[neanderthal]

Dan Foreman (I think that's the name) Republican Senator from Idaho, told his Native American/ First Nations opponent to "go back where you came from" and then had the nerve to say he said nothing racial, as though go back where you came from is ever used in a non racial way. And, of course, the Idaho GOP released a statement that backed him, because Republicans are cunts.

[neanderthal]

Also, don't know if you remember Vanessa Guillen (the female soldier that was missing for a few days from what was then called Fort Hood, and found dead after several days.) Trump had invited the family to the White House and said he'd help to pay for the funeral expenses.

Bill came to the White House, $60k. Trump was quoted as saying "it doesn't cost $60k to bury a ... (rhymes with sucking) Mexican." And yes, he welshed on his offer to pay for the funeral.

But yes billi, Democrats are the problem because they haven't stopped a war we aren't a part of.

Trump is scum, and that's an insult to scum. He is a scrungy, fetid, rotten, carcass of a repulsive man.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I’m not placing blame solely on the Dems, okay?

I have never ever voted red in my life!

GOP had a much strong establishment stench to me back when I didn’t even realize what establishment meant. I was okay with Reagan, but maybe I was just too naive as a kid back then, but the W/Cheny admin to me seemed like the most evil admin ever!

But guess what, the most evil admin is now endorsing Harris. Maybe it’s because Trump is more evil? Or maybe Trump really is a threat to the establishment?

I honestly don’t know and don’t know who to trust in this fake news world.

So I’ll stay at the sideline and just pray rather than vote. You guys do what you think is best.

[neanderthal]

Trump is right there, but you think W was the most evil?

Are you ever listening to yourself?

Nevermind, i'm just going to go back to ignoring you.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Invading another nation for no good reason is not more evil? Even if Iraq does have WMD, it doesn’t give us the right to invade it.
Anyway, it’s obvious Americans have varying moral values. You go vote for yours. Like I said, both candidates are unacceptable to me. I won’t bother voting 3rd party this time.

[Yw-slayer]

An agreement has been reached on the China-India Himalayan border. Billi is in tears and wailing.

[FaultyMario]

is that the one where soldiers on both sides do the bird-like dance whenever there's a changing of the guard on the border?

[Yw-slayer]

You may be thinking of the India-Pakistan border.

[Rare White Ape]

World's richest genius man


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3u8_fp1TtJE

[Crazed_Insanity]

This 'genius' man did not build up Paypal, Tesla and SpaceX in a 24hr period.

This 'genius' man is clearly a bit too distracted right now by a LOT of things... having way too much on his plate.

I wonder how long did this youtuber researched about Elon's false beliefs within that 24hr period. I'd think most likely more than 24hrs? So it's probably clear that Elon did not fact check himself. Elno is clearly an impulsive dude like Trump... being way too trigger happy with their tweets. That's why we can find lots of BS tweets from them.

Anyway, this is exactly why it's dangerous to live inside bubbles. Some guy, like Elon, shared some horrible BS about folks in the blue bubble... and then everyone in the red bubble believes that and think people in blue bubbles are so evil!!! And guess what? People inside the blue bubble also do exactly the same. Rinse and repeat and the 2 bubbles get bigger and bigger.

Just take the word salad issue for example. People in the blue bubble only worries about Trump's word salads. People in the red bubble only worries about Biden/Harris's word salads.

I think any 'normal' human being should be able to see that both sides are spewing out word salads sometimes. I'm not both siding this... this is a real honest to God truth! It was only when Biden was normal and younger, he probably can speak the best amongst those 3 publicly and spontaneously. Biden has definitely deteriorated during his term.

As for Trump and Harris, they speak in word salads all the time when off script. Yet, each side will only complain about that about the candidate on the OTHER side.

Anyway, word salads or catching people's mistakes within a short 24hr period is enough to know and define a person?

I tend to think character and integrity requires more time to check and see.

Maybe I can still like Elon because I rarely look at his tweets. Especially political or insulting tweets. Judge a man by his accomplishments.

If your dad has an emerald mine, will you be able to revolutionize the EV industry and help mankind get back to space using reusable rockets?

No need to magnify his stupid tweets and then diminish his real accomplishments.

I do agree, for a man like Elon Musk, he really should be tweeting more responsibly. But clearly that's his personality/character flaw. Apparently he is impulsive that way just like Trump.

That quality is bad for X, but good for SpaceX though. Unlike Boeing, we're afraid to make mistakes. If we make mistakes, then we're grounded. We don't want to be grounded.

Yet SpaceX don't care about failures. They don't mind blowing shit up. They learn from those mistakes. They appear crazy to the aerospace industry in general, but they've now far surpassed everyone in the aerospace industry.

[Tom Servo]

We've got a little home-grown kerfuffle out here. A few years ago, Dr. Patrick Soon-Shiong bought the LA Times for about half a billion dollars. Like most major newspapers, it makes endorsements every election cycle, and did so again this year, only notably it did not make one for president.

Then word got out it was because of the owner that they didn't. One of the Opinion Editors has resigned in protest. Soon-Shiong posted to Twitter saying that he told them that they were to "draft a factual analysis of all the POSITIVE AND NEGATIVE policies by EACH candidate" so that "with this clear and non-partisan information side-by-side, our readers could decide." There are two issues with this:


The Times already does this. They have a "voter guide" that lays out information for every race and every proposition that contains a ton of information and arguments
That is literally the opposite of an "endorsement"


Now, said owner was angling for a position in Trump's administration last time and is likely doing so again and knows that the LA Times would endorse Harris. I don't think anyone would expect otherwise, so it's honestly just a defacto endorsement. Still, it's gross. I really don't want to cancel my LA Times subscription because we need a major newspaper like that here, but we need a way to not have them be owned by rich weirdos who literally do not understand the definition of words but want editorial control.

FWIW, link to tweet in question: https://x.com/DrPatSoonShiong/status/1849217132183060705

[Crazed_Insanity]

An agreement has been reached on the China-India Himalayan border. Billi is in tears and wailing.

God has made the tallest and most beautiful natural wall between their borders, yet, they still need an agreement... :p

Of course the agreement is mostly to prevent illegal US dollars from taking over the world!

In a way I don't blame them. I wouldn't want US dollars to be world's only reserve currency too.

[Crazed_Insanity]

We've got a little home-grown kerfuffle out here. A few years ago, Dr. Patrick Soon-Shiong bought the LA Times for about half a billion dollars. Like most major newspapers, it makes endorsements every election cycle, and did so again this year, only notably it did not make one for president.

Then word got out it was because of the owner that they didn't. One of the Opinion Editors has resigned in protest. Soon-Shiong posted to Twitter saying that he told them that they were to "draft a factual analysis of all the POSITIVE AND NEGATIVE policies by EACH candidate" so that "with this clear and non-partisan information side-by-side, our readers could decide." There are two issues with this:


The Times already does this. They have a "voter guide" that lays out information for every race and every proposition that contains a ton of information and arguments
That is literally the opposite of an "endorsement"


Now, said owner was angling for a position in Trump's administration last time and is likely doing so again and knows that the LA Times would endorse Harris. I don't think anyone would expect otherwise, so it's honestly just a defacto endorsement. Still, it's gross. I really don't want to cancel my LA Times subscription because we need a major newspaper like that here, but we need a way to not have them be owned by rich weirdos who literally do not understand the definition of words but want editorial control.

FWIW, link to tweet in question: https://x.com/DrPatSoonShiong/status/1849217132183060705

I just want to say that I'm not angling for any position in the Trump admin and I'm not rich. So I'm really literally not going to vote for them.

As for that LA Times problem caused by rich people... So what if it has now succumbed to the power of the FOX side? You're smart. As long as you know what's going on, you should be safe. Billionaires can have various political colors too.

Think about it, imagine if your the new rich owner and the paper has made it's recommendation to endorse Donald Trump. What would you do? You really would not go ballistic about that and tell them that you can't do that?

I'd imagine that guy bought LA Times specifically change its color. Previous owner really should've been more responsible selling LA Times to him. Selling something important to the highest bidder will end like this. Obviously previous owner doesn't care about LA Times as much as you do.

[Tom Servo]

The point was maybe rich people who buy up newspapers shouldn't have editorial powers when they don't even understand the basic concepts. It's not specific to one side or the other. And it's not like I'm also saying that the Tribune corp who previously owned it are all sorts of great.

Like, is this tough to grasp? Am I not making sense? I'm not mad about which way they're endorsing, I'm mad that someone who has too much money is apparently able to redefine the concept of "endorsement" and force the second largest newspaper in the country to adopt his opinion.

[FaultyMario]

I follow (used to follow) one ex-columnist for the LA Times and I seem to recall that there was a massive exit of staff at the beginning of the year (I think), Tom: did those people resign because the business was in trouble and thus why it was sold, or did they resign due to differences with new management?

[Crazed_Insanity]

The point was maybe rich people who buy up newspapers shouldn't have editorial powers when they don't even understand the basic concepts. It's not specific to one side or the other. And it's not like I'm also saying that the Tribune corp who previously owned it are all sorts of great.

Like, is this tough to grasp? Am I not making sense? I'm not mad about which way they're endorsing, I'm mad that someone who has too much money is apparently able to redefine the concept of "endorsement" and force the second largest newspaper in the country to adopt his opinion.

I can certainly understand your pain. If the rich could just buy into something they don't quite understand or perhaps don't care to understand and screw things up, that can definitely a problem.

I want to go back to Boeing again... yeah, we don't have the problem of rich stepping in to overtake the company, but in a similar way when financial bean counters who have no grasp of engineering take over Boeing, the end result is what we're witnessing now. So this is definitely a problem.

However, I'm not sure how we can best fix this problem.

I don't believe in government intervention to take over Boeing or LA Times to try to fix the problems. I really really doubt government can do things better. If they can, surely we'll have better politicians and not incurring so much debt.

The rich owner now owns it. If he's stupid enough to drive the company to the ground, so be it. It's his company. It's not taxpayer's responsibility to fix it for the rich stupid guy. Hopefully we'll have other companies that are run better and able to take over and fill the market demand.

This is why I think we shouldn't allow any company to become too big to fail. We ought to come up with a threshold of what constitute too big to fail... and demand such companies to split itself up one way or another. That's as much government intervention I think necessary to ensure overall market stability. You might want laws to add more regulation such rich owners cannot tell its employees to do A, B or C... that's just dumb IMHO. Just focus on running the government and make yourselves better and more efficient 1st! :p

If LA Times really has become so obsolete in today's market that it's no longer a viable business, then we ought to just let it die and let the last rich guy who bought it be the sucker to lose his money.

I'm pretty sure most rich guys who bought a media company want editorial control. To force them to not have that control would be like telling us that we can buy this car, but you are not allow to drive it! :p I suppose if you bought a piece of real old historical car for to add to your collection, not driving it makes sense, but I seriously doubt rich people today think news papers are business that can make you lots of return on your money...

[Tom Servo]

I'm almost certain it was layoffs, I know they've taken some massive staffing hits. I'm not aware of a mass voluntary exodus, but I'll see if I can find anything. Oh, also, definitely any exodus at the beginning of the year would be unrelated to the sale, as that happened six years ago.

[MR2 Fan]

The point was maybe rich people who buy up newspapers shouldn't have editorial powers when they don't even understand the basic concepts. It's not specific to one side or the other. And it's not like I'm also saying that the Tribune corp who previously owned it are all sorts of great.

Like, is this tough to grasp? Am I not making sense? I'm not mad about which way they're endorsing, I'm mad that someone who has too much money is apparently able to redefine the concept of "endorsement" and force the second largest newspaper in the country to adopt his opinion.


Rich people buying up newspapers for propaganda reasons is a tale as old as time

[FaultyMario]

In yet another chapter of "politics is posturing": If Texas officials wanted to stop the arrival of undocumented immigrants, they could try to make it impossible for them to work here. But that would devastate the state’s economy. So instead politicians engage in border theater. (https://www.texasmonthly.com/news-politics/border-crisis-texas-solutions/)



As the train crossed into Kinney County, Marco gazed at the rolling hills. He felt a mix of emotions. He had left his aging mother behind in Honduras and didn’t know when, or if, he’d see her again. In the U.S., however, he expected to earn enough to send her the money she needed for health care and other bills. Driving a bus in San Pedro Sula, Marco made 8,000 lempiras—about $325—a month. Working just a week on a construction site in the States, he could make $1,120. He could change his mother’s life.

After a while Marco turned and stared toward the locomotive pulling him steadily north. In the distance, he saw a cavalcade of black SUVs and ATVs driven by Texas state troopers and National Guardsmen. They were part of Governor Greg Abbott’s Operation Lone Star.

[Yw-slayer]

The problem that Brainwashed Boy has ignored or overlooked is that while Tom may be smart, most people aren't.

[Tom Servo]

Rich people buying up newspapers for propaganda reasons is a tale as old as time

No doubt, I know this isn't a new problem. Hearst's got a whole castle named after him. I mostly feel like it's still worth calling out when it happens as opposed to....whatever Billi's word-salad was.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Let me try to condense my salad here…

We’re only in a dangerous place if we end up with just a singular monopolizing media company. Likewise, it can be dangerous if our government end up with the power to interfere or censor media companies.

I’m just against a singular rich guy dictating his narrative and shutting everyone else up. As long as we don’t have that, I think we should be good. As long as we have bunch of different little media companies, I’m okay with them reporting however they want as long as they are not reporting bogus fraudulent stuffs. Well, if you’re just comedic or sarcastic like Onion, that should be fine.

Anyway, salad is still too much or you get the gist of it? :p

[Rare White Ape]

This 'genius' man did not build up Paypal, Tesla and SpaceX

Correct

[Crazed_Insanity]

For sure the man did not single handedly accomplish those things, but he deserves a lot of credit. To deny Elno’s credit is like being senile like Biden or like conspiracy theorists who believe we didn’t land on the moon.

Elno is obviously a very lousy tweeter. He didn’t get rich because of his tweets and he didn’t even get rich buying twitter. He is good at and known for those other things. It’s those other things that made him rich. The thing I respect the most about him is that he didn’t set his goals just for the money.

[MR2 Fan]

I voted.

[Cam]

A rep from Rumble e-mailed me several times inviting me to post my content there. I did not really know what Rumble was, so I looked it up. I am keeping my content as far away from Rumble that I can.

[Tom Servo]

Oh man, dodged a bullet there. Similarly, someone tried to convince my mother in law to go on Rumble, I am happy that after pointing out a few things, she declined.

Also, I voted as well, just got my email saying that my ballot was received and counted, despite the fact that my wife signed it first and I had to cross that out and sign my own name under that.

(FWIW, I contacted the registrar of voters about the signature thing and they told me that they verify them by hand, so it'd be understood that the incorrect signature was crossed out and the correct one would be below it)

I really love how well they do absentee ballots here in LA. You get notified by text or email about basically every part of the ballot's lifecycle. It's exceptionally well done, especially given that it's a governmental agency.

[Tom Servo]

From one of my favorite writers

Everything Is A Conspiracy Theory When You Don’t Bother To Educate Yourself (https://www.techdirt.com/2024/10/23/everything-is-a-conspiracy-theory-when-you-dont-bother-to-educate-yourself/)

[Crazed_Insanity]

Yeah, just like Bernie Sanders kept on losing precisely because he doesn’t know how the primaries work. His supporters are stupid too haha!

Let’s face it, half of US voters are dumbasses. How can we at least make some dumbasses to want to vote for you so you can win big? That’s what they need to do, rather than continue to blame how stupid voters are.

The race really shouldn’t be this close.

The recent match up has been unfortunate I think. Hillary really could’ve easily became President against those normal GOP candidates. Earlier she run, less political baggage’s she’d carry too. It would’ve been better for Obama to run against Trump…

Biden also have more appeal with blue collar workers… something Hillary and Kamala don’t have.

It’s so weird we now have a GOP candidate fighting for the average people and the democrats are viewed as the party representing the rich establishment.

Anyway, may the best candidate win. I don’t like them, but I’m okay with either one you guys picked out…

[Tom Servo]

It is incredible how you have to respond to every post, whether or not you have anything useful to say. It's like Sisyphus and that rock. You are just compelled to say something, even if it's nothing. It's commendable, maybe?

[MR2 Fan]

I do wonder how many pages this would be without the constant billiGPT replies

[Crazed_Insanity]

Yeah, it is super weird that I see this thread like Trump and Elon see Twitter/X…

I think it’s just to vent or for therapeutic reasons?

[Tom Servo]

If we could harness his posting energy, we might be carbon neutral.

[Tom Servo]

Just leaving this here: https://www.mcsweeneys.net/articles/the-complete-listing-atrocities-1-1-056

[Tom Servo]

What's gonna be great is that he'll get taken out by a childhood disease that most of us are now immune to.

https://cdn.bsky.app/img/feed_thumbnail/plain/did:plc:tm3djotsgwdkml5jn5rpubhd/bafkreibmosrfclftnopqerqztuwrunj5mbb73foabili2larm h2smp37c4@jpeg

Like, can anyone find me an instance of the FDA advocating against exercise?

[Crazed_Insanity]

Sunshine and exercise is probably a bit too much and exaggerations, but considering that Americans now suffer from lots of chronic illnesses and high healthcare costs, do you think we can just blame stupid Americans for their dumb choices in poor diets and lack of exercise?

Again, I want to point back to Boeing… because I’m not as familiar in the food and drug industry… do you think FAA has done a good job regulating Boeing?

RFK Jr. may not be entirely correct, but given the trends, FDA probably is corrupted in some ways too.

If it weren’t for those crazy republicans, I’d never have guessed US taxpayers sponsored coronavirus research in China!

RFK Jr. and crazy republicans probably shouldn’t be allowed to be in charge, but they are doing their job check and balance the Dems.

[Tom Servo]

It's honestly reassuring that I can count on an intensely stupid take.

[sandydandy]

I'm surprised RFK Jr. didn't mention hair regrowth and penis enlargement supplements in that rant. I believe they're among the top advertisers on Truth Social and InfoWars.

[FaultyMario]

I know your election is none of my business and yadda yadda... but, if in anywhere in your heart there is some space for some of the horrendous suffering of poor people everywhere, please, do not vote donald trump. He and his cabal are only going to make it worse for them, and, in turn, for humankind.

He *is* an existential threat to humanity.

[Tom Servo]

I've said it before, but when it comes to the people who will be most hurt by a Trump presidency, I am near the bottom of the list. White, straight, make good money, the only real thing that might throw them off is that I'm an atheist, but you can't tell that from looking at me. Trump's tax changes weren't great for us, but ultimately came out as a wash - our income tax rate went down but we couldn't take the deductions we did before, ended up paying almost the exact same rate as we did under Obama once everything was said and done.

But there are a lot of people who will be tangibly hurt by him and the policies both he and his cronies want. We're talking about millions of people who might be forcibly removed from their homes. We know already that he and Vance do not care if immigrants are here legally, Vance has straight up said that he still thinks legal immigrants should be deported. Trump and Miller have talked about the biggest deportation movement in the history of the country.

There are a ton of people here who are being demonized by Trump and his party who will truly suffer if he comes into power. People who do not deserve it. I do not know how it is this close, and I desperately hope he doesn't win, but Mario is 100% right and, being our neighbor, it is his business.

I know we've got some here who think that the rights of specific people aren't that important, but they're the rights most worth defending.

[Rare White Ape]

What's gonna be great is that he'll get taken out by a childhood disease that most of us are now immune to.

https://cdn.bsky.app/img/feed_thumbnail/plain/did:plc:tm3djotsgwdkml5jn5rpubhd/bafkreibmosrfclftnopqerqztuwrunj5mbb73foabili2larm h2smp37c4@jpeg

Like, can anyone find me an instance of the FDA advocating against exercise?

He can drink all the raw milk he wants.

I’m curious as to why he put stem cells on that list. Especially given that stem cells are a product used every day all over the world as a treatment for illness, and that conservatives like him were the ones who initially suppressed scientific research on their use based on unfounded moral panic.

[Tom Servo]

I feel like that's how a candidate out here for congress, Michelle Steel, keeps talking about how pro-IVF she is. Ignoring the fact that it's only weird pro-lifers like her who are threatening IVF.

[Tom Servo]

I guess at least someone at WaPo has some guts. https://wapo.st/3UqHWRM

[Rare White Ape]

I wouldn't endorse Harris as president.

[Cam]

YW lives in China and he is trying to erode our faith in western mainstream media...

HMMMM... ONE WONDERS...






;)

[Yw-slayer]

Hey, sometimes the truth hurts. :D

[Tom Servo]

I wouldn't endorse Harris as president.

I would. 'Cause apparently a ton of us don't remember the shitshow we ended up in the last time people were like "I don't endorse that lady to be president."

[Crazed_Insanity]

It’s not really about gender discrimination. Hillary and Kamala are both just not good. After Obama bumped Hillary for 8 years, she ended up accumulating way too much political baggages. She could’ve easily became president if it weren’t for Obama.

As for Kamala, she couldn’t even win the 2020 DNC primary. She’s just not a very strong candidate. She can be a man and still couldn’t win.

Alan Lichtman is still predicting Kamala has an edge though. He correctly predicted Trump in 2016. We’ll see.

[FaultyMario]

IMHO both are mediocre politicians, it's just that Harris is a terrible candidate, whereas trump is an awful person who's going to lead the world into the abyss.

[Rare White Ape]

I would. 'Cause apparently a ton of us don't remember the shitshow we ended up in the last time people were like "I don't endorse that lady to be president."

Well for me it’s about not continuing to support the massive rightward shift in the options available. The Dems are dressing their neoliberal policies in layers of socially progressive pantomime while also abandoning those who actually are in socially progressive demographics.

I’m not supporting Trump either, but at least his crap is clearly stated and telegraphed well before it’s acted upon. As paradoxical as it sounds, it feels like I can trust him more to be truthful, even though he is punching me in the face.

In the techno-capitalist dystopia that you guys have found yourselves in, between a shit sandwich or a giant douche I’d still rather have Harris as president. But what I really want to see is an ACTUAL left-wing option, instead of a right-wing option and a far-right competitor. But hey, I have no horse in this race!

As far as the LAT’s non-endorsement of Harris goes, reportedly it’s because the new owner isn’t in favour of the continuing genocide in Gaza. I tend to agree with that stance. It’s of no. 1 importance to me when it comes to US foreign policy.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I think ‘outsiders’ are seeing our election clearer than us. This election isn’t really about the candidates. Blue is going to vote blue and red is going to vote red regardless who the candidates are.

Will endorsements from Taylor Swift or major news papers really make any significant difference? I think not.

[Yw-slayer]

I read The Message. Great book.

[Yw-slayer]

Of course Fucker Carlson denigrates "Samoan Malaysians" for laughs. No surprise there.

Billi: "Something something liberal democracy free speech free press"

[FaultyMario]

Re: Palestina.

Netanyahu has played his cards* really well, he is exerting influence over the presidential election in ways that Putin could never dream of.

_____
*If the sociopathic championing of a European theocracy in western Asia –that is based in the ethnic cleansing of the native population– can somehow be considered "gamesmanship".

[Tom Servo]

Well for me it’s about not continuing to support the massive rightward shift in the options available. The Dems are dressing their neoliberal policies in layers of socially progressive pantomime while also abandoning those who actually are in socially progressive demographics.

I’m not supporting Trump either, but at least his crap is clearly stated and telegraphed well before it’s acted upon. As paradoxical as it sounds, it feels like I can trust him more to be truthful, even though he is punching me in the face.

In the techno-capitalist dystopia that you guys have found yourselves in, between a shit sandwich or a giant douche I’d still rather have Harris as president. But what I really want to see is an ACTUAL left-wing option, instead of a right-wing option and a far-right competitor. But hey, I have no horse in this race!

As far as the LAT’s non-endorsement of Harris goes, reportedly it’s because the new owner isn’t in favour of the continuing genocide in Gaza. I tend to agree with that stance. It’s of no. 1 importance to me when it comes to US foreign policy.

Don't get me wrong, I understand the sentiment. But I think the new owner is full of shit and he's doing the same thing Bezos is doing, he's afraid of retribution if Trump wins and he's not willing to take a stand.

I don't love her stance on Gaza either, but like, the other guy literally just says he thinks that Netanyahu isn't doing genocide fast enough. I am willing to forgive some poor stances and still endorse her.

'Cause, again, last time a bunch of people were like "well, this candidate isn't up to my standards", we ended up with Cheeto Jesus. There's a certain level of pragmatism that I think one must be willing to accept.

[FaultyMario]

Of course Fucker Carlson denigrates "Samoan Malaysians" for laughs. No surprise there.

Seriously, how does one walk on the streets of Nuyorrico after spouting shit like this?

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ga7vu7qWYAA7_zo.png

[neanderthal]

There's no universe where Kamala is a bad candidate, but only made tolerable by her opponent. None.

[MR2 Fan]

Trumps rally tonight is SO BAD, Rick Scott, a pretty right-wing Senator from Florida is already desperately trying to do damage control. Tonight on X about the Puerto Rico jokes:

"This joke bombed for a reason. It's not funny and it's not true. Puerto Ricans are amazing people and amazing Americans! I’ve been to the island many times. It’s a beautiful place. Everyone should visit! I will always do whatever I can to help any Puerto Rican in Florida or on the island."

[Rare White Ape]

'Cause, again, last time a bunch of people were like "well, this candidate isn't up to my standards", we ended up with Cheeto Jesus. There's a certain level of pragmatism that I think one must be willing to accept.

I’m starting to roll the other way on this particular point. I’m from a country with compulsory voting and preferential voting, so the whole not-voting thing was hard for me to grasp.

Over the last six months I’ve begun to understand it more and more. And this covers the spectrum of people from those who are completely apathetic about politics and can’t be bothered voting, right across to people who are politically engaged and specifically choose not to vote.

Non-voters are saying there is no candidate that I want to vote for. If you want my vote you have to do more to earn it. They are saying that no candidate or party currently offers anything that fulfils their needs or socio-political outlook. I agree with them. If I was a voting citizen in the USA I’d be a non-voter this time around.

This often leads into arguments or circular reasoning about non-voters being ‘Trump enablers’ but that’s a load of ass. The only Trump enablers that exist are the ones who voted FOR Trump. You can’t vote against Trump because that’s not how voting works; votes for Harris are votes for Harris. And I’d rather not vote at all than vote for Harris, even if it’s to try make his chances a little bit worse.

So look at the root cause as to why Trump won next time. It wasn’t because of voter abstinence. It was because Hillary Clinton wasn’t able to attract enough people to vote for her. She was a horrible candidate. Don’t blame non-voters, lay the blame squarely on Clinton for that one.

To fix the problem, we need what I’ve said before: a realistic social-democratic left-wing party that actually aligns with people’s needs, and fills the growing gap between the Green Party and the (currently right-wing) Democrats.

[Tom Servo]

That was pretty gross. What did Puerto Rico do to start catching flak from this dipshit?

[Tom Servo]

It was because Hillary Clinton wasn’t able to attract enough people to vote for her. She was a horrible candidate. Don’t blame non-voters, lay the blame squarely on Clinton for that one.

I mean, she won the popular vote by about 3 million people.


To fix the problem, we need what I’ve said before: a realistic social-democratic left-wing party that actually aligns with people’s needs, and fills the growing gap between the Green Party and the (currently right-wing) Democrats.

I don't disagree here, but I think essentially throwing the election and facing four years of fascism is not an option. We already did that. It didn't go well. It has every sign of going way worse if we make the same mistake again.

[FaultyMario]

There's no universe where Kamala is a bad candidate, but only made tolerable by her opponent. None.

No, she objectively is a bad candidate. Her "unburdened by what has been" stump is amongst the least effective soundbites ever. She is also not very good at stopping an attack from a hostile interviewer. And most importantly, imho, is her inability to convey a clear message to the masses; look at any historical figure of relevance, they were able to connect with the lay-person, to put their intentions into an understandable form and from then on, work their way into effective persuasion.

Harris is not campaigning in a vacuum and she is evaluated against her competitors. In this case, she's going against that old, shameless weirdo. If you put current-Harris in previous races, she'd lose to 2020 Warren, Sanders and Biden; she'd do worse in 2016 than either Clinton or the weirdo, and, if she went up against 2012 Obama or Romney in, she'd lose to either of them.

That said, a Harris administration in 2025 >>>> weirdos in government in 2025.

[Yw-slayer]

Re: Palestina.

Netanyahu has played his cards* really well, he is exerting influence over the presidential election in ways that Putin could never dream of.

_____
*If the sociopathic championing of a European theocracy in western Asia –that is based in the ethnic cleansing of the native population– can somehow be considered "gamesmanship".

It is indeed a game, wherein the main player(s) is/are backed by decades of propaganda, soft power to justify the deployment of overwhelming military and financial might.

[Yw-slayer]

https://nationalinterest.org/feature/diminishing-prospects-us-china-détente-213361

[Yw-slayer]

I don't disagree here, but I think essentially throwing the election and facing four years of fascism is not an option. We already did that. It didn't go well. It has every sign of going way worse if we make the same mistake again.

It's four years of fascism either way lollll

[Rare White Ape]

I was about to say, it’s fascist either way. The difference between the two parties is that the Dems are polite when they do a fascism.

[Yw-slayer]

Insert meme of the Republican B52 dropping bombs, and the Democrat B52 doing the same but it's got a rainbow flag painted on the tail instead.

[Crazed_Insanity]

https://nationalinterest.org/feature/diminishing-prospects-us-china-détente-213361

China is like the global Dem and US is like the global GOP…

Yes, it’ll be ideal for the two to work better together but fat chance of that happening.

Both nations have pretty lame foreign policies. Taiwan is the equivalent of the progressive Bernie Sanders being crushed by the CCP…

Anyway, so refreshing to see none US folks to see how lame both of our presidential candidates are. When inside of the bubble, you only see the lameness of the other side and unable to see the lameness on your own side.

Glad to know that I’m not that crazy… :p

[Crazed_Insanity]

I was about to say, it’s fascist either way. The difference between the two parties is that the Dems are polite when they do a fascism.

Fascists need an authoritarian figure right?

Who is that figure when Dems are in charge? Or before the orange man came along?

[Tom Servo]

Y'all should look up what fascism is. It does have a specific definition. Hint: it's not synonymous with militaristic. And I know if any of you are claiming that Harris is a fascist in the same way Trump is, I know you are deeply unserious.

[Yw-slayer]

it may make a difference to some of you guys inside the country. Elsewhere in the world, it's all really similar stuff.

[Tom Servo]

But you get that that's not fascism, right? That's a word that has a meaning. I mean, I get that Trump and Vance and a lot of the right wing ecosphere has diluted its meaning by tossing it around, but I kinda expected only a certain small subset of this board to fall for that.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Not sure if it's about how many people 'fall' for that, but about what the US government does outside of its borders. Foreigners don't need to 'fall' for anything, they get to see and experience what our government has done all over the world. Most Americans don't know and don't care, but foreigners get to experience these things 1st hand!

It's like we have an invisible, immortal God-like dictator who very much thinks like Henry Kissinger. Of course we can easily brush that off as conspiracy theory. Anyone who believes that must be stupid..., but the reality is clear. It doesn't matter if we have W or Obama, US government behaves in pretty evil selfish ways, and yet pretend we're the good guys. Seriously, who made us the world's police? We can't even fairly police our own cities, what makes us think we can police the world?

I do have to say the orange man is a different kind of fascist though. So this election is essentially a battle between the old fascists vs the new orange fascists.

Hopefully our constitution can still sort of hold things under control... assuming that we don't have crazy lawmakers and crazy judges further mutilating it...

Personally I'm not afraid of political extremists... or maybe I should say I don't mind whether we go right or left. What I'm more afraid of are actual dictators. I think nations with actual dictators are the ones that are more problematic though. USA is problematic because it has become too big to fail on a global level. In a way I do agree more with Trump's isolationist policies. It's time for US government to loosen its grip around the world. Stop meddling around. What really is the point of NATO? Pay more attention on average Americans at home please. But, then again, why care about those poor Americans? Only need to call them and text them for money and for votes every few years...

So the 'establishment' is our shadowy dictator. If orange man fails to trump the old establishment, we'll likely continue the same old routine for a while... If the orange man succeeds, will it be better? I'm not so sure either.

[sandydandy]

I always thought fascism meant authoritarian. Not necessarily militaristic, but definitely opposite of libertarian. Both can be applied to liberals and conservatives.

Looking at this page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_spectrum

I see the Nolan model makes sense, as does the newer proposed one. The latter of which I've seen used in those online tests to see what you are.

[Tom Servo]

It tends to be militaristic and authoritarian and tends to believe and align with specific racial hierarchies, nationalism, a belief in political violence, and control of the media.

While Harris has her flaws, one of which is her continued stance of unilateral support of Israel in the face of their genocide, she's pretty far from fitting the description of a fascist while Trump basically fits it perfectly. So far there's only one candidate who has been going after immigrants and claiming he's going to "revoke the license" of news organizations he doesn't like, and only one who stoked an insurrection and told the Proud Boys to "stand back and stand by."

[Crazed_Insanity]

It's very possible everyone just has different definitions... I think most are just stuck with the Eysenck's idea that fascists are right wing? Dems can definitely control media. Dems also overwhelmingly voted to invade Iraq... allowing W to be become preemptively violent against another nation. (Any nation that's anti-Israel is fair games) And why would Obama seemingly carried on the same W foreign policies is really beyond me. It really seems like we have this invisible authoritarian figure giving out orders...

Anyway, I kinda identify with the following 2 axis model:




Looking at this page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_spectrum

Milton Rokeach:
Socialists (socialism) — freedom ranked 1st, equality ranked 2nd
Hitler (Nazism) – freedom ranked 16th, equality ranked 17th
Goldwater (capitalism) — freedom ranked 1st, equality ranked 16th
Lenin (communism) — freedom ranked 17th, equality ranked 1st

Naturally I dislike Nazism and Communism due to their total disregard of personal freedom. As for Capitalism and Socialism, I'm okay with 'both', not just one or the other. Why? Because I don't believe everyone needs to be absolutely 'equal'. There's no way you can convince me Lt. Barclay is equal with Capt. Picard, right? Plus, everyone is just uniquely different, no need to force equality. Accept that men and women are different. We're both human and deserve the same human rights, but let's not kid ourselves that man and woman need to be completely equal that we don't really need each other. Of course on the other extreme, we should not have complete disregard of equality. Same basic human rights are definitely needed. Just because you are richer and more powerful, doesn't mean you get to step on the little guys.

So IMHO socialism or capitalism alone won't really work. Both need to work hand in hand in order to have a free and prosperous society.

[MR2 Fan]

It tends to be militaristic and authoritarian and tends to believe and align with specific racial hierarchies, nationalism, a belief in political violence, and control of the media.

While Harris has her flaws, one of which is her continued stance of unilateral support of Israel in the face of their genocide, she's pretty far from fitting the description of a fascist while Trump basically fits it perfectly. So far there's only one candidate who has been going after immigrants and claiming he's going to "revoke the license" of news organizations he doesn't like, and only one who stoked an insurrection and told the Proud Boys to "stand back and stand by."



This, all of this. Full control over the media, racial purity, kicking out or arresting groups of people who disagree, no dissent allowed, etc. are all tenets of fascism, and none of that is being displayed by Harris. Sure, foreign policy MAY be similar between both parties at the moment regarding Israel, but completely opposite regarding Russia, China, North Korea, etc.

[Tom Servo]

It's very possible everyone just has different definitions.


OMG no it isn't. Words have meanings. We have dictionaries. If we basically say "words can mean whatever you want them to mean", we literally have no way to communicate. Dear god, man.

What the fuck nightmare bizarro world am I living in right now where someone's just like "naah, that specific term for a specific thing can mean anything if you just believe hard enough!"

[Crazed_Insanity]

Well, they’ll have to explain why they think Harris is fascist to them then.

[Crazed_Insanity]

This, all of this. Full control over the media, racial purity, kicking out or arresting groups of people who disagree, no dissent allowed, etc. are all tenets of fascism, and none of that is being displayed by Harris. Sure, foreign policy MAY be similar between both parties at the moment regarding Israel, but completely opposite regarding Russia, China, North Korea, etc.

Trump has full control of media?

Who had control of the narratives of Covid origin for example? Shutting people up because those people are spreading dis or mis info…

Jan6 dissenters are simply viewed as insurrectionists…

The line is very blurred…

You don’t see fascism when they’re doing it using reasons you agree with.

To the outside world, US does seem fascist in varying degrees.

[Tom Servo]

See, this is what I'm talking about. MR2 Fan was saying what Trump wants, not what he has. This was not a tough thing to get, he was saying that the fascist agenda is what he wants. And it's something Trump is literally saying, he's saying he'll "revoke the licenses" of networks who don't praise him. There's no arguing here, the man has specifically stated that that's what he wants.

In the meantime, there was a difference between Jan 6 dissenters, which admittedly was the vast majority of them, and insurrectionists who literally smashed their way into Congress. And we all know this, it's only people deliberately trying to muddy the waters who say otherwise.

I have this strong feeling like you are deliberately pretending not to know what words mean so you can weasel around this stuff.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Not trying to weasel anything, just saying that there are a lot of gray, but all you see is black and white. You'd gladly endorse one side while painting the other side as evil. However, there are multiple folks here who can actually see that both sides sucks. The people who can see that are usually the ones who do not live inside the US.

Yes, Dems never actually said it, they sure are very politically correct, their bombs are also very politically correct that they support gay folks with their rainbow flags! But a bomb is a bomb is a bomb. The see and experience the same blast, doesn't matter if it's from W or Obama.

Was the world more dangerous while Trump was in power? Was the world really safer while Biden is in charge?

Like I said, I still wish I could vote for Bernie Sanders.

Anyway, let's just let the non-US folks speak for themselves. Why do they think dems are fascists-lite...

[Tom Servo]

Again, you're deliberately misreading things. I think I've made it pretty clear that I don't think Harris is a perfect candidate. But given the choice between her and Trump (which is the choice we've been given, so it's not like this is a hypothetical), I would wholeheartedly endorse voting for her. I also didn't say that I thought that WaPo and the LA Times made the wrong endorsement, I thought not making one at all is cowering in front of a fascist candidate who has made it clear he's all about retribution.

How is this complicated? What's the hard part here? For the record, some of Trump's supporters agree he's a fascist but they make the argument that fascism isn't bad. That's certainly an argument one can make, but the guy straight up embodies the very definition of a specific political ideology. This should not be confusing.

Fascism is obviously a political system that one can find some success in, though I think if you ask Hitler or Mussolini how it turns out in the long run, you might find that it's not a sustainable political stance.

[Yw-slayer]

OMG no it isn't. Words have meanings. We have dictionaries. If we basically say "words can mean whatever you want them to mean", we literally have no way to communicate. Dear god, man.

What the fuck nightmare bizarro world am I living in right now where someone's just like "naah, that specific term for a specific thing can mean anything if you just believe hard enough!"

Perhaps this article will assist?

https://newrepublic.com/article/170890/does-american-fascism-exist

The paras on Bush are particularly salient.

[Tom Servo]

That article starts out with "Unlike other pundits and thinkers, Kuklick is not interested in whether “fascism” as such has arrived in the United States. Rather, he’s concerned with how the term itself has been used in the last century of American discourse."

I'm pretty sure this aligns with what I'm trying to say. That the term fascism has been diluted by poor usage. I'll maintain my usage is more accurate.

If your plan is to basically say "fascist has been an overused term and as such no longer holds a meaning", then sure, this is a great article, but I'm not sure any of us want to align with Bllli's "words don't mean anything anymore" worldview.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Hey, Billi didn’t write that article and the article wasn’t written because of Billi.

[Tom Servo]

No, but it does align with what you've been saying, this concept that now "fascist" is just this nebulous term for "bad person" when there an in an actual definition of it that applies to one of our current presidential candidates.

[Tom Servo]

But hey, I'll try to meet you all halfway. We can agree that "fascist" no longer means anything. It is just this term that no longer has a specific meaning, no matter what dictionaries say and whether they line up with the practices of various politicians. So what do we call it now? What do we call nationalist politicians that want to control the media and demonize immigrants? If that term no longer means a specific thing, please let me know what the term should be now. I did see that Tim Walz referred to Elon Musk as a dickwad, is that the term we're going with now? I'm fine with dickwad, but I think the idea that Harris and Trump are equivalent is exceedingly wrong. I'm not saying Harris is amazing and a panacea, but goddamn, I cannot imagine people thinking they're equivalent. And it's not like the definition of fascist came about after Trump. It's been there for decades, he just happens to match it, while Harris doesn't.

[Crazed_Insanity]

So we need to ignore that article because it thinks too much like Billi?

Okay YW, any other articles? Or explanations as to why you think Biden/Harris admin is fascist?

If you got nothing, then you better apologize to Swervo about insulting Kamala that way!

[Tom Servo]

No, I am saying we need to ignore that article because it's arguing that people misusing and therefore diluting a word is a valid tactic. I just got the dig in at you because you basically said the same thing and it was fun to torment you.

[Crazed_Insanity]

You should know by now I’m not tormentable in this thread? You are tormenting yourself by click view! :p

This is why I thought people need to clearly define what they mean by it. I’m not advocating that we just allowing people to self identifying whatever definition they want.

I suspect most just thought too far to the right as fascist. Kamala is still too far to the right for a lot of folks here.

[Tom Servo]

Hey, ya gotta let me at least feel like I'm tormenting, otherwise what am I even doing here?

[Crazed_Insanity]

Fine. I’m tormented. Hope that makes you feel happy. :)

[Tom Servo]

It does, thank you!

[Yw-slayer]

Well, one candidate's comments on domestic policies seem to espouse a view which could be said to be more classically fascist than those of the other candidate

[Rare White Ape]

While we are all splitting hairs on what the definition of 'fascist' is, let's ask the Palestinians whether they consider the current US government to be fascist or not....

*crickets*

Oh, sorry. We can't ask the Palestinians if they think the US government is fascist. They're a bit busy right now having bombs from US factories with US brand names painted on them paid for by US tax dollars dropped on their heads. And if their neighbourhoods aren't being bombed (it's probably because the US-backed IDF has finished bombing those neighbourhoods) they are busy being crushed alive by US-backed IDF troops who are driving excavators over their bodies while trapped in rubble.

Maybe we can ask them what they think once the ethnic cleansing has been completed. We should be able to ask them then, right?

[Crazed_Insanity]

There's no question that what US is doing is morally questionable.

However, Swervo would question whether if what the Biden admin is doing really qualifies as fascism though. Let's not ask the Palestinians, let's just ask YOU. How do you define fascism?

Let's stop dodging the question to another article or to the Palestinians. Why do YOU think America is a fascist nation.

I'll go 1st. 1st of all, my definition of fascism: Fascism is a far-right form of government in which most of the country's power is held by one ruler or a small group, under a single party. Fascist governments are usually totalitarian and authoritarian one-party states.

Do I think US falls under that? Not overtly, but passively yes. Clearly we have 2 parties and we do not have an authoritarian figure; however, I think it's clear now after W and Obama that they both followed the same order foreign policy-wise. It's really as if they're taking orders from the same shadowy authoritarian figure. I can only attribute that shadow as the 'Establishment'. This shadowy dictator continues to feed the American people his approved candidates to vote on... giving us the illusion of democracy. We also continue to install dictators around the world who'd listen to us. If they refuse, they'll end up like Saddam Hussein. As for NATO? What is it good for? Protecting Europe from the Russian threat? The same Russian threat who couldn't even over take Ukraine after 2 years? We also force the world to use US dollars as global reserve currency. Anyone dares disobey that... guess what would happen to them?

As for Israel, that is really tricky, but US has definitely became as if its God, attempting to protect Israel at all cost. Biblical God would let the Israelites face judgement when they became unfaithful... Does Israel really listen to the US? Not sure. I really think it's time US should just let go and let God deal with His own people. But of course the 'establishment' already think that it's God and will likely continue to play that role til the end. Such pride will eventually fall. I really don't believe we should support Israel unconditionally like that. However, I do have to say, Israel didn't start this though. Why couldn't the hostages be returned? Somebody has purposely orchestrated this to make Israel and US look bad.

In conclusion, is US fascist? On the surface, of course not. Don't be ridiculous!

Beneath the surface where the light don't shine, I think it may very well be. However, that's spreading conspiracy theory... so forget about that! US is definitely NOT fascist!

[Tom Servo]

Hey, it's you all that decided words don't mean things anymore. If that means I'm splitting hairs, well I guess maybe later we can try to decide what that term means.

It bums me out that Trump and Vance have been so effective at nullifying that word by throwing it out there at everyone. It *really* bums me out that we've got one candidate who has at least spoken about trying to bring about a ceasefire and the other one who has only said he doesn't think the genocide is happening fast enough and now everyone's both-sidesing things more than the NYT.

I remember when it was a joke on The Young Ones where Rick would call anyone he didn't like a fascist.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Doesn’t look like people want to come up with their definitions of what fascist means to them? Or maybe they’re sleeping now?

Anyway, back to our candidates, are you sure Trump meant to say that we need to commit genocide quickly or at a faster rate? I thought he was just saying the war against Hamas needed to be won quickly and decisively because otherwise Israel will lose the PR war.


It *really* bums me out that we've got one candidate who has at least spoken about trying to bring about a ceasefire and the other one who has only said he doesn't think the genocide is happening fast enough.

Do you really prefer the method of paying lip service of trying but never able to get it done?

I voted for Biden, and I likely would’ve voted for his reelection or even for Kamala if it weren’t for our involvement in these 2 wars.

Putin and Netanyahu for some reason don’t seem to respect Biden much. I think Trump will be different. Not sure if he’ll be better, but surely things will be different if he’s elected.

I kinda want to vote for Trump precisely because I think he will do differently compared to Biden/Obama/W when waging wars… however, I’m not confident his ‘different’ will be better though… that’s why I hesitate to vote for him.

If he has truly been born again after surviving the assassinations, then surely our future will be brighter.

If he really is the next Hitler, then naturally the world will be screwed!

Reality will probably be somewhere in between.

BTW, during this election cycle, I find myself liking Vivek and JD. I will be observing them closely in the future. If they can be more trustworthy than Trump, my 1st ever republican vote will likely go to one of them.

As for future dem stars? Besides Mayor Pete, I don’t know who else? However, seeing him working with the DNC establishment to derail Bernie’s campaign makes me want to kick his ass. He should’ve continue on a straight fight against Bernie rather than consolidate behind Biden… seriously, all of these behind the scene orchestrating is a threat to our democracy too. Let people vote for what they want okay Dems?

In a way I’m glad Trump broke the hold the establishment had on GOP. Ironically the Republicans are now the party for the average people. Billionaires who don’t have to suck up to corporate sponsors anymore… blaming the problems on dem establishment above and illegal immigrants below…

Do I really trust Trump and Musk fully? Of course not. However, I still trust that most in our US military will not fall behind a dictator.

Hopefully after the establishment lost its grip on the DNC and all the boomer politicians retire and we put in place term limits, hopefully we’ll return to a healthier democracy.


With Harris administration, that means status quo will extend 4 more years, wars probably will too.

[FaultyMario]

My definition of fascism is somewhat broader and it rubs against the edges of neoliberalism.

So, for starters, neoliberalism is when you live in a liberal democracy (indirect representation, safeguards to institutional capture not in place) whose government apparatus is overly influenced by an elite of commercial interests, so much so that primarily taxation and judicial decisions but also more general public policies support the interests of the elites. So for example you end up with regressive taxation (like for most of us in former colonial countries), for-profit education (Chile a prime example), for-profit healthcare (U.S.) and the declaration of certain industries as "strategic", which has mostly been used to favor mining and petrol conglomerates all over the world. I'm not saying either of these measures make a country become neoliberal, but a combination of them does. Most importantly, there is primacy of the individual interest over that of the collective, so for example, you are going to have a legal framework that favors private property over other regimes of property, even in the latter have a history of being more adequate to manage certain types of goods and also have a history of providing a better quality of life for the community (https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/1473095218820460). In this century, there's a lot of activism (https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aaron_Swartz#/media/Archivo:Aaron_Swartz_profile.jpg) against adopting an individualistic worldview (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_Kyung-hae).

I know some people say that Margaret Thatcher invented neoliberalism, but not IMO, she just refined it, learning from the mistakes of previous neoliberals.

And who were those? Well, ever since that bearded German Jew explained how the liberal system worked, many attempts were made to make it more better, more new, and thus they came up with neoliberalism, which IMO appeared in the late 19th century and early 20th. But some guys did not have the finesse of Mrs. Thatcher, and they resorted to violence. State-sponsored violence.

And that to me is Fascism, when all the resources of the State are put to safeguard the interests of the major corporations.

Elsewhere on this thread I've said that many of the so-called warrons (war on drugs, war on migration, war on culture) are nothing but posturing. Because, for starters, you can't fight a phenomenon, much less expect to win against an idea. So politicians instead of solving the problems that give rise to the phenomenon or the problems that arise from it, they talk and talk and talk about how they can solve it. Take immigration, of course some people who migrate are violent, and some of them are also criminals, so is immigration a source of violent crime? of course, to some minor extent. But migration is also a form of subsidizing certain sectors of the economy, and because recognizing that goes against the previous publicly-held postures, politicians can only double down on the posturing, until a certain point. Some will stop and some won't, those who don't get praise from ailing corporations, you know, the same corporations that are not very good at capitalism and are really needy of subsidies and welfare.

So Fascism is a kind of fringe neoliberalism, but when the amount of government aid is still not enough, some corporations will force their way into more freebies, like sponsoring the narrative that they're "too big to fail". And they usually get aid by way of blackmail, and that opens the door to violence. Violent discourse first, symbolic and economic violence later (notably in the form of unfair treatment for the few in detriment of the well-being of the many), until that violence becomes the use of the forces of the state against the poor and the disadvantaged. Like in many places in the recent past.

In summary, Neoliberalism: a lot of aid to corporate elites using some government tools; Fascism: all the help to the elites with all the powers of the State behind it.

So Harris or trump, who is a fascist and who is not?

By my own account, they both are, but there are degrees of difference. From my own example Harris is the politician who will posture against immigration and stop, and then look for a different way in which she can benefit the elites. So, my verdict is that she will try to stay within the confines of the neoliberal dystopia, but in a more more subdued way than, say, Thatcher.

trump, on the other hand, is the limp-dicked politician who gets some sort of morbid enjoyment out of watching poor people suffer and who will do everything to help the rich, but also to burden the poor; not only pass tax breaks to those who don't need them, but to raise taxes on the working classes; he will continue to provide military and political aid to Netanyahu for his genocidal campaign in the middle east, and also find other ways to hurt the destitute, even if they live half the world away and are no threat to him or his backers.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Thanks for your definition, at least we now have some basis for further discussion…

I will sit out and just read for now.

[Tom Servo]

We've literally got one party advocating for shutting down media they don't like and rounding up people who in some cases are here completely legally and putting them in camps while using the national guard to raid cities to get rid of the "enemy within" but somehow they're both the same.

I'm done with this conversation. Y'all win. Also, since we can play fast and loose now, y'all are also fascists, each for your own reasons.

[Crazed_Insanity]

What am I going to read if you're done with the discussion?

Mario was pretty clear that there are clear 'differences' between Harris and Trump. Mario was not making the claim that they're both the same. Don't be so discouraged and feel bad so quickly man!

Oh... I'm feeling tormented again...

Feeling better?

People self identify the word fascist a bit differently. If you have no problems having discussions with another member of the LGBTQ community who plays fast and loose with their gender, you should have no problems discussing fascism with Mario and all others who might have a slightly different definitions. Definitions are not the most important thing..., what's more important is to understanding what the other person is really trying to say. Of course understanding Mario, doesn't mean you have to agree with him... nor does it mean you have to change your word definition or your gender or anything like that! :p

[Tom Servo]

I lied. I thought I was done with this discussion until a writer at The Verge did a better job of putting my thoughts into words than I am capable of.

https://www.theverge.com/24282022/kamala-harris-endorsement-presidential-election-2024

[Tom Servo]

Also, to go back to my original point, there's also this article written better than I could.

https://www.techdirt.com/2024/10/29/dear-jeff-bezos-the-hard-truth-is-that-cowardice-like-yours-is-why-people-dont-trust-the-media/

[FaultyMario]

a writer at The Verge

Dr. Seuss.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GbAywmPWIAAPHtK.jpg

[Tom Servo]

I have to admit, I do not get the connection with that and someone writing for The Verge.

[FaultyMario]

You said that an article from the verge expressed your views on Weirdo Donnie.

My reply was meant as "Dr. Seuss expressed my views on American fascism better than I can".

[Tom Servo]

I gotcha. And I would agree, the America First movement is essentially Nazi-style fascism.

[Rare White Ape]

Let's stop dodging the question to another article or to the Palestinians. Why do YOU think America is a fascist nation.

"Kids in cages" introduced by Obama and still continuing under the Biden administration
Border wall with Mexico
Mass deportations of asylum seekers and continued use of immigration policies started by the Trump admin
Restriction of women's bodily autonomy (reversal of Roe vs Wade) making it illegal to seek healthcare that could save someone's life
Systemic racism still present in all levels of society
Restriction in some states of transgender rights and gender-affirming healthcare, which should be a basic human right
Ongoing police brutality against people of colour
Mass incarceration of people for minor crimes, with minority demographics being disproportionately represented within this group of people
Continued use of the death penalty, even for those who are innocent of a crime they were wrongly convicted for

I could be more thorough but I can't be bothered. The list could easily be three times as long. There are any number of financial and militaristic things I could cite if I had the inclination. Specifically on the military front, being 'at war' with *someone* all the time feels like it is part of US culture, and feels like it is as prevalent as systemic racism is in US society. Just watching the pre-race invocation/anthem/flyover at your average NASCAR race gives off that impression.

Perhaps the most damning thing about US politics is its foreign policy. Just the continued backing of the Netanyahu government and the IDF alone is enough to convince me that the USA is fascist without also including the above list. The USA is indirectly involved in a genocide. That's fascism. Now it is also backing the Kenyan military activities in Haiti as a soft power to exert influence over part of the African region. The big countries will always give nice warm hugs to the little countries as a way of pulling them in line and making sure they don't coddle up to the other big rival countries. Isn't colonialism fun?

[Rare White Ape]

As I was writing the post above I recognised that Australia also does a lot of the things that the USA does. So I have to ask: do I think Australia is a fascist state?

It's not as horrible as the USA is, but the answer is yes.

From my perspective as a white male with a good job and decent income, none of it affects me personally. All I can do it try drag things back to the left and away from all that.

But looking at it from the perspective of someone who's Black or impoverished or LGBTQI+ or born in a pacific island nation where none of this is my business or even in my control, I would come to the firm opinion that Australia is fascist.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I guessed somewhat correctly then... fascism to you is basically the same as going to the right, the militaristic aspects of US have bases and wars everywhere around the world further solidify how US is a 'fascist' state.

However, since the word 'fascism' had became so controversial with its actual definition, maybe we can just forget about that word and focus in on America's deeds. Had they been good or bad for Americans and folks outside of US soil? Of course, even the word definition of what's good and what's bad may vary, but maybe we can just focus in on things that are universally bad?


I lied. I thought I was done with this discussion until a writer at The Verge did a better job of putting my thoughts into words than I am capable of.

https://www.theverge.com/24282022/kamala-harris-endorsement-presidential-election-2024

Even inside the article Swervo posted above, it talked nothing about fascism. However, it talked about a lot of 'bad' things about America, particularly related to Trump. Author sounds very much like Swervo. Trump will make pretty much everything worse, but at least Biden/Harris had been 'trying'...

In all honesty, Dems for sure gave me this vibe all the time... that they are 'trying'. Bernie Sanders comes along with grass root support to help actually push things thru, but nope... you stay where you are. We don't need you. Just let us try okay? You stay put. We got it. We got it under control...

Anyway, I can agree with the article about Trump's anti-vax stance. It is very possible that we'll have an unnecessary outbreak if he's in charge. However, is school shooting really due to Trump alone?

https://duet-cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/0x0:1536x1176/1080x827/filters:focal(768x588:769x589):format(webp)/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/25703578/School_shootings_1536x1176.png

The above chart is from that article. Yes, school shootings went up during Trump years, but shot up during Biden years. Nice 'try'! Now, I know it's likely not Biden's fault that it went further up. I think clearly American's mental health issue is getting worse after the pandemic. I can't help but wonder what Kamala will 'try' to reverse this trend other than continue to say that she's 'trying' and then continue to blame the Republicans.

A lot of issues RWA listed above were things USA has done before Trump took office... before we even heard about Elon Musk or Jeff Bezos.

It should be clear that US does not care much about the collective action problems facing the world when we continued to stick with the Imperial star destroyer units when rest of the world converted to metric system. Even during WWII, we didn't want to get involved until Japanese forced us to fight. USA is a self centered nation only care about its own interests for a long long time! Even during a time when Trump and Musk weren't born yet.

So I think it's kinda unfair to blame all the evils of the US on Trump and Musk now.

Another scapegoat is Jesus.

Yeah, if we get rid of Christianity and Trump and Elon Musk, our nation and the world will be much much better!

Really?

Okay, let's forget about religion for now. If you guys truly hate capitalist pigs, guess what, those pigs existed before Trump and Musk. Do you think they're all gone now? Trump and Elon Musk and Jeff Bezos are completely dominating the pig sty now?

Surely there's currently a war going on in the pig sty... battle between the old money vs the new money.

I suspect neither side really care about the mass, but at least in America, they all need our votes to give them legitimacy.

I at least like Musk because he revolutionized the EV industry and the Space industry. I just have this huge respect for his accomplishments in those areas. At least he's not a rich pig who'd just consume and offer no bacons in return.

So yeah, should I give legitimacy to old money's puppets... or to the new money Trump?

I'm voting for Jesus!

[Crazed_Insanity]

This history about the Ukraine war is interesting and eye opening… then senator Biden was the idiot who against all expert advice, decided it was a good idea to expand NATO way back in 1998. Even Henry Kissinger thought it’d be a bad idea!

What motivated him to do that? Hmmm…. One wonders….


https://youtu.be/R9uHpNHYj_Q?si=Gqv5hBg2OoXjAN9N

Whoever is in charge of the US government, deliberately ignores the will of the people, the advise of experts...

Biden is obviously not the actual person in charge of this blatant disregard of the will of the average voters and the recommendations of the experts.

So who is really in charge?

I don't know. All I know are conspiracies. Whoever it is, a vote for Kamala is a vote for IT!

I'm not going to vote for IT and I'm not voting Trump.

Best case scenario is that God can use Trump to destroy IT.

Worst case scenario is of course Trump becomes the new IT and end up doing more evil!

Whatever happens, we the American people need to wake up and truly restore democracy somehow.

You want to be woke? This is the kind of wokism I can get behind.

I have Jesus to complain to, for you atheists, not really sure what you can do. But if you honestly believe voting for Kamala... the continual 'trying' of the lesser evil side works for you, by all means vote for her I guess.

[FaultyMario]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GbEpw1cXYAA4aNz.jpg

[Crazed_Insanity]

Sorry, I don't get it. :?

[FaultyMario]

Sorry, I don't get it. :?

It's a joke, you don't have to "get it".

[Crazed_Insanity]

Yeah I assumed it's a joke, but I just don't understand why spider man would want the world to fall any further than it already has?!?!? What am I missing?

[Rare White Ape]

Spider Man wants to see the fall of capitalism (a force which perpetuates warfare and environmental destruction) and colonialism and oppression, which are things that western nations use to maintain power.

[Crazed_Insanity]

That kinda make sense.

However, remember who the western capitalistic pigs were fighting against during the Cold War? If the western rich white males lost it to the communists, Soviet Union would be the… anti-fascist in charge? As it spreads to the rest of the world, the world would be a much better place?

East Germany, China, North Korean were the places to be back in the days, huh? The entire world could be like that if US could just fall away! ;)

[FaultyMario]

[cold-war era prattle]


the world changed long ago.

Dude, we've repeatedly tried to tell you that you're using an outdated framework with which to view the world. I get it, it's a kind of didactic one, but, like, dude, we're Gen-X, we've gone thru a lot. We should have a more critical media literacy.

As for imperialism, it's been noted since the 60s at least, that all flavors of northern countries have resorted to imperialistic tactics, be it pure capitalists ones like the UK, more social democrats like Norway or state-managed capitalists like the Soviet Union.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Again, can you help poor Billi out what are you trying to tell me? I’m out of date, okay, so what is up to date?

[Rare White Ape]

Billi, the bogeyman you picture in your mind when I talk about socialism isn’t the same socialism that I’m referring to.

Yours is based on a 50-year-old scare campaign designed to excuse US military action in Southeast Asia and South America

Mine is a fair and equitable way to collect taxes and provide government services where trillion-dollar companies make a few billion less each year so that people don’t go bankrupt if they need kidney dialysis to survive.

[neanderthal]

"Obama put kids in cages?"

<does one minute google search.> Does not compute. President Obama's administration built the facility (a large warehouse) with fencing to separate different demographics.

Trump is the one who separated infants and toddlers from their parent/ caregiver and put them all in one cage.

Source. (https://www.washingtonpost.com/immigration/kids-in-cages-debate-trump-obama/2020/10/23/8ff96f3c-1532-11eb-82af-864652063d61_story.html)

[Crazed_Insanity]

"Obama put kids in cages?"

<does one minute google search.> Does not compute. President Obama's administration built the facility (a large warehouse) with fencing to separate different demographics.

Trump is the one who separated infants and toddlers from their parent/ caregiver and put them all in one cage.

Source. (https://www.washingtonpost.com/immigration/kids-in-cages-debate-trump-obama/2020/10/23/8ff96f3c-1532-11eb-82af-864652063d61_story.html)

https://apnews.com/article/election-2020-democratic-national-convention-ap-fact-check-immigration-politics-2663c84832a13cdd7a8233becfc7a5f3#

AP fake news reported differently… in a multi reality world, very difficult to figure out the real truth.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Billi, the bogeyman you picture in your mind when I talk about socialism isn’t the same socialism that I’m referring to.

Yours is based on a 50-year-old scare campaign designed to excuse US military action in Southeast Asia and South America

Mine is a fair and equitable way to collect taxes and provide government services where trillion-dollar companies make a few billion less each year so that people don’t go bankrupt if they need kidney dialysis to survive.

I can also say the bogeyman capitalism in your mind isn’t the one I’m referring to too! :p

Both capitalism and socialism came from the west and permeated throughout the world. Even Nazism/Fascism came from the west. Japan copied pretty much everything the west did including how westerners dressed! (Except Christianity)

US vs USSR was an internal struggle of the western world which also affect the rest of the world!!!

If you believe in the survival of the fittest, then it should be clear who won.

China tried all of those ideologies. Which -ism brought Chinese people the most prosperity? I think it should be self evident.

Socialism can definitely work too, people can definitely work collectively together for a greater good, but it has to be by their own choice though, not forcibly by the government or a dictator.

As long as there is a human dictator involved, things will never end well. History gave us plenty of examples.


I have nothing against socialism or even communism, I’m just afraid of dictatorships. Also, don’t tell me there was no bogeyman during the Cold War. I honestly believe that had the soviets accepted Jesus and Americans became more secular and atheistic, USSR might win the Cold War. But that’s just my conjecture.

[Rare White Ape]

Also, don’t tell me there was no bogeyman during the Cold War. I honestly believe that had the soviets accepted Jesus and Americans became more secular and atheistic, USSR might win the Cold War. But that’s just my conjecture.

Uhh dude I did not state there was no bogeyman. And also the bogeyman I referred to has nothing to do with religion. Also Russians follow the old-school Orthodox Christianity, which is very different to your version of Christianity. But I should not have to lecture you on this since you are a noted theologian, yes?

And also:


I can also say the bogeyman capitalism in your mind isn’t the one I’m referring to too! :p

Yeah go right on ahead. Say whatever you want. But keep in mind that I did literally say "a fair and equitable way to collect taxes and provide government services where trillion-dollar companies make a few billion less each year" which really means that I do support a system where socialism and capitalism can coexist (like those religious bumper stickers) if things were managed better.

But I would not be too hard on you for this given that you are a noted theologist and not a linguist, amirite?

[Yw-slayer]

Lolling so hard at how Genocide Grandpa managed to put the nail in the Harris campaign's coffin with what he must have thought was a clever "garbage" comment.

Karma kicking his ass for enabling and supporting genocide and ethnic cleansing.

Also Lolling so hard at, yet feeling sorry for you guys on, how these 2 candidates are apparently the culmination and best choices produced by the system.

Also sad for everyone else on the planet, since in the likely event that orange moron wins it is going to further destabilise the rest of the planet.

Well done Billi clap clap

[Rare White Ape]

"Obama put kids in cages?"

<does one minute google search.> Does not compute. President Obama's administration built the facility (a large warehouse) with fencing to separate different demographics.

Trump is the one who separated infants and toddlers from their parent/ caregiver and put them all in one cage.

Source. (https://www.washingtonpost.com/immigration/kids-in-cages-debate-trump-obama/2020/10/23/8ff96f3c-1532-11eb-82af-864652063d61_story.html)

In my post I used the air quotes "Kids in cages" to refer to the wider immigration policy now known as "Kids in cages" as a reference for what I consider to be a draconian and fascistic immigration policy. If you want a deeper examination of it, let's go:

I didn't see anything in this WaPo link that would serve to reliably defend Obama's actions here.

According to the article the facility was originally built in 2014 and needed to be expanded due to overwhelming demand prior to 2016. The expansion happened in response to a far-right publication's expose.

A function of the facility was that it was used to separate people (emphasis mine):

"To keep different demographic groups safely apart — a standard practice in detention settings — the U.S. Border Patrol used chain-link fencing to create partitions in the cavernous warehouse. One area was designated for teenage boys, another for mothers with small children, another for entire family groups, and so on."

Nothing so far says that this didn't happen before 2016 or was changed to be a new policy after 2016.

The Trump administration came up with the zero tolerance thing in 2018, four years after the centre opened. It gained huge media attention and was dubbed "Kids in cages".

Six weeks later Trump ended the zero tolerance stance after media backlash. This is all in the WaPo article. If I was being generous, there were 100 weeks of this being in effect, but everyone focuses on a 6-week period. And that's only in this specific detention centre. What were the other detention centres doing prior to this incident?

So I ask, what was it that Trump did that was 'unprecedented'? The only differences between Trump and Obama's handling of it that I can find were that the government allowed cameras into the facility to document what the conditions were, and that it ended soon after that due to a policy change.

There are 21 paragraphs in the article that talk about the situation, and I quote the three paragraphs specifically dealing with the Trump administration in their entirety here:

"The facility was controversial at the time, but it wasn’t until Trump’s zero-tolerance episode in spring 2018 that the facility came to symbolize the kind of administrative cruelty associated with the intentional separation of children from their parents by the government.

As criticism of the separation practices grew, the government allowed television crews inside the CPC, intending to show that families were being treated humanely. It backfired. Instead, viewers were shocked and appalled at the sight of children staring back through the chain-links of a human warehouse.

Trump ended the zero-tolerance efforts in June 2018, after six weeks. The controversy and attention the episode generated — and Trump’s declaration that children would no longer be separated — was something smugglers quickly seized on. They began telling would-be clients that children were a passport into the United States."

So please tell me, what whas 'unprecedented' about this policy? Remembering that the Australian government is also guilty of enacting a very similar policy in the last decade.

[FaultyMario]

I'm going to side with Mick on this one

Obama did not earn the moniker "deporter in chief" just because Latinos didn't like him. He worked hard for it. Much like he worked hard to alienate blue collar workers.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Uhh dude I did not state there was no bogeyman. And also the bogeyman I referred to has nothing to do with religion. Also Russians follow the old-school Orthodox Christianity, which is very different to your version of Christianity. But I should not have to lecture you on this since you are a noted theologian, yes?

And also:



Yeah go right on ahead. Say whatever you want. But keep in mind that I did literally say "a fair and equitable way to collect taxes and provide government services where trillion-dollar companies make a few billion less each year" which really means that I do support a system where socialism and capitalism can coexist (like those religious bumper stickers) if things were managed better.

But I would not be too hard on you for this given that you are a noted theologist and not a linguist, amirite?

I know Russians' Orthodox Christian faith and I definitely recognized them as brothers and sisters in Christ too. However, USSR or communism or Marxists don't believe in religions though. They believe religions or gods are oppressive, so in the name of equity, they don't want religions around. China also destroyed it's traditional religious faiths and even it's original culture after the cultural revolution. No ideologies are allowed to oppress the people!!! (Except the dictator in charge)

Again, I think dictators are the main reason why USSR fell apart and Chinese dictator didn't really quite want to follow the same path so they adopted something from America! Capitalism for sure isn't always fair, but it does somehow make a society richer and richer. If you want standard of living to rise up higher and higher, you pretty much need capitalism. Capitalism is actually not really purely a western ideology too. Chinese people were capitalists already from before, it's just wiped away by communists. However, traditional Chinese do not view or regard businessman as the top tier class in society. I think this may be typical to most Asian cultures? At least the emporers recognized wise scholars as top talents and those would be the elites... subsequently I think people with particular special skills would be next level. Perhaps this is why Asian parents like their kids to be doctors, lawyers, engineers... Businessmen are typically next lower level in terms of status...

I think problem with capitalism is that it puts business folks and profits as top priority. The good part of capitalism is that we now have a big giant engineering company like Boeing! I kinda doubt it'd be possible without capitalism. However, on the flip side, if we focus only on profits, what would happened is the Boeing we now see today. When William Boeing was focusing 1st on engineering, then it's great! Capitalism can be a great tool to build a great company! When Boeing management is corrupted to began to lose their focus on what's more important and focus solely on profits and shareholder value, then naturally things tend to fall apart.

I think America is in a similar situation. Even a shift to become more socialistic likely won't help if you've lost your focus on what's important. Socialism likely won't save Boeing, right? Union might negotiate a more equitable pay for Boeing workers, but was that really the key reason Boeing built low quality planes? Likewise for the nation, we can shift left... as left as possible..., but will that really change the course of US government? Will the government be humble enough listen to the will of its people? Will it be humble enough to accept expert advise when it comes to foreign policy decisions?

Boeing changed its CEO. Hopefully he will make the appropriate change.

For sure President Harris won't make any meaningful change.

However, it is kinda scary to change it back to President Trump.

Like I said, if the guy is really born again this time, then we'll likely be okay and maybe turn the ship around for the better! However, I don't know that for sure. All I know is that I can trust in God and I really believe He is the reason why the West can be so messed up and still made those messes end up working so well. Just as it was mind boggling to me why such a small nation as Israel can continue to be the center of world's attention for thousands of years... What have they done or contributed to the world historically? Pretty much nothing except to help humanity to see the invisible God...

[FaultyMario]

As much as Adolf should've saved us all the trouble by staying a mediocre painter, so should have donnie.

It's obvious that He was born to play the role of TV clown.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GbME30WWQAAUbFv.jpg

[Tom Servo]

That's the worst inflatable sex doll I've ever seen.

[Crazed_Insanity]

:lol:

You guys are really mean!!!

[Rare White Ape]

That's the worst inflatable sex doll I've ever seen.

That what you get when you order one off wish dot com.

[Yw-slayer]

Lolling at the fundamentalist Christian colonialist imperialist wordsalad. Well done Billi clap clap

[Yw-slayer]

Meanwhile, might I suggest that everyone reads this relatively well-balanced article - which talks quite a bit about the relationship between business, value, perception, and the media - written by Louis-Vincent Gave (an economist and analyst) of Gavekal Research: Prejudice and China Link: https://research.gavekal.com/article/prejudice-and-china/

[Crazed_Insanity]

Meanwhile, might I suggest that everyone reads this relatively well-balanced article - which talks quite a bit about the relationship between business, value, perception, and the media - written by Louis-Vincent Gave (an economist and analyst) of Gavekal Research: Prejudice and China Link: https://research.gavekal.com/article/prejudice-and-china/

To me, China is definitely important, but I don't have the money to invest in it though. Heck, I don't even have much money to invest in America! :p I do contribute some money to international market index fund in my 401k plan though... so maybe that fund includes a bit of China?

Anyway, like I said, I don't really mind which -ism China impose or implement. What I don't like about CCP is that it now has a dictator. That is not a recipe for success. If it's really People's China, then listen to the people! If Xi wishes to be an emperor, then have the balls to be one already. Make a change to become XiXiP and create a Xi Dynasty!

China is such a huge country with vast resources. Becoming a global superpower should be simple. Colonial powers sucked China dry and CCP drove the nation to the ground. It has recently rebounded. You'd credit that to the leadership of CCP, right? Okay, whatever you say. I'm eagerly awaiting Chinese cars coming to America. If they are really good, I'd definitely buy one. However, until then, heck, I don't even trust data published by US government fully... do you really think the data in that article is really trustworthy?

If CCP is truely trustworthy, we'd be able to figure out the covid origin already.

Now is definitely not a good time to brag to the rest of the world how China has leaped frogged ahead of the rest of the world during the Covid crisis. This only makes China looks like China released the virus to slow the rest of the world down.

Just keep quiet for now and continue on the path to make China great again. Let China's greatness speak for herself later on in the future. Right now, it's still a sensitive period... if you truly threaten the US establishment, you can count on them finding excuse to make you into the next evil empire.

I personally would like to see collaboration between US and China. Not another war... whether cold or hot.

[Tom Servo]

Overall good, though I think the DEI part of the explanation is misguided. If only because the author both describes it as a strength and also just "virtue-signaling."

[MR2 Fan]

Had an enlightening conversation on twitx with another 3D printer designer....older guy who was asking why anyone would want to get rid of the electoral college because going by popular vote........throws away people's votes?

Welp, I couldn't help myself and explained in detail how bad the electoral college is and that it literally throws out votes....like I don't know (I mean I do) how people get things so backwards, but conservative and social media are really good at selling false narratives...aka lies about things.

I rarely get to a point where someone stops replying to me, but he did once I explained it all plainly to him, lol

[Crazed_Insanity]

Advantage of EC is that it saves time to do recounts I think.

Imagine a nation as big as China or India and the race is super close… so the loser demands a recount… and you’ll have to recount billions of votes all over again!

I personally have no issues one way or another, as long as the rules of the game is obeyed.

I do believe EC is the more efficient way though. Bush/Gore race, we only have to deal with Florida, imagine if we had to recount the entire national votes! It’d be more drawn out and destabilizing…. Especially to todays political climate.

[Tom Servo]

And some people think we're mean.

https://theonion.com/trump-admits-relationship-with-epstein-severed-after-dispute-over-dibs-on-ivanka/

[Rare White Ape]

imagine if we had to recount the entire national votes!

You wouldn't have to do that. The best practice would be to keep the votes from each voting location separate and only recount the ones that are close, within a few percentage of margin. And ridding yourselves of the electoral college would only be half the story - another system would replace it and you would still have clusters of people grouped together in separate voting populations.

In Australia, votes are generally counted by staff at polling booths after the polls close at 6pm and it only takes a few hours to get an overall picture of the results. I participated in this during the 2022 federal election. Each electorate might have 10-15 polling booths at different locations, as well as early and absentee voters, with these votes being delivered separately.

What we did was sorted the voting forms by their first preference, counted each pile, and phoned the result through to the Electoral Commission. Observers from each political party were allowed to witness what we did at every step. This was done to deliver a result in a timely fashion, to give an idea of how the result would play out and help determine a winner before the night ends.

To maintain the integrity of the results all of the forms were bundled up and placed in sealed boxes at about 9pm, with the tags being witnessed by two people before being taken away. The person in charge of the booth could nominate someone to drive them to the local office of the Electoral Commission. The following Monday the boxes would be unsealed (with this also being witnessed by two people) and matched up with the absentee and early votes, and a more thorough counting process would take place to get an accurate result.

Most electorates are quick and easy to count because there is a wide margin and nobody contests the result, however a few can come down to a margin of less than 1%. I know of a few past elections where the difference was less than 40 votes for some electorates. These can take weeks to count because the process will be repeated multiple times. However it is very rare, almost impossible, for the entire election to be decided by multiple recounts for just one electorate.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I can think of a tricky scenario where each state doesn’t have close results but after we add all 50 states’ results together, then things appear very tight! So if somebody demanded a recall, all 50 states would have to count again, right?

I understand that’s probably an unlikely scenario, but EC won’t have that issue at all. The only drawback of EC is that occasionally winner doesn’t win popular vote. But as long as everyone understood the rules of the game, it should not be a problem. It’s not likely to win popular vote by a landslide and lose Electoral votes. If that happens, I can understand EC sucks!

[FaultyMario]

Were you paid for that, Mick?

The Mexican system relies on "volunteers". People who are randomly selected for polling duty.

anyway, nothing more political than muralism

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GaqwsdXXEAITWx2.jpg

I love how the antifa's hand clenches the fascist's wrist.

[Rare White Ape]

Were you paid for that, Mick?

Yep. Elections happen on a Saturday so with the weekend pay rate I got paid a bit over $500 AUD for 10 hours work.

[Yw-slayer]

Overall good, though I think the DEI part of the explanation is misguided. If only because the author both describes it as a strength and also just "virtue-signaling."

I think the point he was trying to make was that how it's implemented affects the outcome. If there's too much focus on the latter (or it's implemented such that one solely focuses on the latter), then it becomes less of or is not a strength.

[Tom Servo]

That feels like a very kind interpretation.



Diversity is a strength. But unfortunately, it could be that all the focus on diversity has not strengthened Western industries quite enough to cope with the oncoming Chinese onslaught. Hence Western policymakers’ enthusiasm for executing a 180˚ U-turn, and instead of promoting free trade and the beauty of Western liberalism, suddenly imposing tariffs and building walls.

Or to put it less kindly, while Western CEOs focused on virtue-signaling, Chinese companies forged ahead, producing better products for less money— which is what capitalism should be about. Today, we are seeing the results.


To me, I think the only valid point in this section is that the reaction of a lot in the west, including people like Musk, is that failures to keep up are because of a focus on DEI and have abruptly changed direction and now are resorting to protectionist tactics instead. Then he goes on to refer to it to say it was "virtue-signaling" in "less [kind]" words, and infers that a focus on DEI means you're not also trying to improve your company and its ability to make good products for less money, which he then also infers that DEI is "not what capitalism should be about", which infers that trying to be more inclusive in a country that has long not been in ways that have probably harmed our companies more than helped us is directly opposed to capitalism.

One company you like to pick on, especially when it comes to their vaunted car tech vs. Chinese automakers, is Tesla - a company run by someone famously against DEI efforts. I don't think the author had a valid point here and is using language generally employed by far right douchebags.

I think the "180-turn" part is a far more valid point and ignores what I think is actually the cause here, which is the "have to deliver value to shareholders on a quarterly basis" mentality that controls almost all business here, especially ones that are tied up in a lot of VC money. These are people that, unless you can show results that your change is increasing profit/shareholder value every three months will lose their shit. It's why nobody can embark on long-term projects and actually move the needle in a meaningful way, because long-term gains in exchange for short-term losses are impossible. Then you get that 180-degree turn and "we're no longer focusing on that", because the investors are mad and it's a convenient scapegoat for the *actual* things the overpaid CEOs are doing wrong, which might include overpaying themselves millions of dollars when their companies aren't making any money.

[MR2 Fan]

Harrison Ford endorses Kamala....but also says "I've got one vote, same as anyone else"....which is technically false due to the electoral college which is what makes it so annoying. Someone in Wyoming gets the equivalent of 3 votes compared to someone in California

[Crazed_Insanity]

Think of it this way, city slickers and cowboy/ranchers don’t think alike. City slickers also likely out number rancher/famers. So folks in rural states want may always be opposed by city slickers… so giving their votes a bit more weight isn’t that big deal to me. I think that’s probably one of the reason founding fathers made it this way too. Farmers won’t always be steamrolled over…

Plus, it’s easier to campaign too. Candidates just need to focus on swing states rather than campaign in all 50 states.

There are advantages and disadvantages of course.

Gerrymandering is something I hate, but I have little issues carving things out fairly right along existing state borders.

[MR2 Fan]

"I think that’s probably one of the reason founding fathers made it this way too. Farmers won’t always be steamrolled over…"

no, it was because of SLAVERY

https://time.com/4558510/electoral-college-history-slavery/

[Crazed_Insanity]

That definitely was also one of the reasons. Today, it’s now flipped, right? Now big liberal states can have more electoral votes with illegal immigrants! ;)

Anyway, I can feel your frustration about EC and clearly the last couple of times we ran into this problem, we had really lousy candidates… W, Gore, Trump, Hillary. I don’t like all of them!

Perhaps a new amendment is in order. If you can’t win both EC and popular votes, then we declare a miscarriage of election! WH shall be left vacant and the speaker of the house takes over. At least the speaker will have more legitimacy. I also don’t trust involving Supreme Court to decide election outcomes now…

[MR2 Fan]

In other news RFK Jr. wants to ban several foods...........but he mentioned Mountain Dew as something he wants to ban...........campaign now 100% sunk.

[Tom Servo]

Cheez-Its, Dorito's, and I wanna say Cap'n Crunch (but if not that, some similar breakfast cereal) are also on the chopping block.

Edit: Found some more.

Mountain Dew
Crest toothpaste
Children's Tylenol
Welch's Fruit Snacks
Grape juice
Vaseline
Children's sunscreen
Mayonnaise
Gatorade

[MR2 Fan]

Children's sunscreen.....gotta get that skin cancer started early kids!

[FaultyMario]

We got front of package food warning labels and like 80% of packaged foods sold got at least one black octagon (a sort of "stop" sign for consumers). Products with octagons can't be marketed towards children so we temporarily got rid of tigers and bears on cereal boxes.

So, if RFKJ is thinking of following the WHO/PAHO guidelines for food labeling, it could be good, but seeing as he is a rabid antivaxxer, I doubt that he believes in scientific programs.

So anyway, Chile got the octagons in the mid 2010s and then Mexico followed suit in like 2019. The labeling has been effective in that Kellogg's has got its mascots back on the packaging after they reformulated their products, massively reducing the amounts of sugars and fats. So yes, when you hit a corporation in the pocket, they are then willing to work in the interest of the public.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Try to be impartial a bit here…

Are Americans’ healthier or suffering more chronic issues?

I think it should be clear that our foods and drugs are not really being regulated that well given the state of health of Americans and Americans’ ability to afford groceries and healthcare… Of course, not sure if RFK Jr. will be able do better either.

So again, status quo or try something different like injecting bleach? You guys decide. I’m okay either way. I’ll go with your flow until the day comes when someone worthy of my vote shows up…

[Yw-slayer]

That feels like a very kind interpretation.

He's writing from a relatively non-political point of view with a focus on economics and economic growth. He may have his own views on DEI but I don't think he has an anti-DEI agenda per se.


To me, I think the only valid point in this section is that the reaction of a lot in the west, including people like Musk, is that failures to keep up are because of a focus on DEI and have abruptly changed direction and now are resorting to protectionist tactics instead.

Yes, we agree that that's the point he was making.


Then he goes on to refer to it to say it was "virtue-signaling" in "less [kind]" words, and infers that a focus on DEI means you're not also trying to improve your company and its ability to make good products for less money, which he then also infers that DEI is "not what capitalism should be about", which infers that trying to be more inclusive in a country that has long not been in ways that have probably harmed our companies more than helped us is directly opposed to capitalism.

I still think that the point he was making was that by focusing on DEI, people got distracted from the point of capitalism?


One company you like to pick on, especially when it comes to their vaunted car tech vs. Chinese automakers, is Tesla - a company run by someone famously against DEI efforts. I don't think the author had a valid point here and is using language generally employed by far right douchebags.

Again, I think you're reading too much into it, but I can see why use of such language may put you off.

My main complaint about Tesla is the idiots who drive them, but less fatuously, the misleading marketing that they engage which (in my view) was pretty egregious over here. I have to say that at least they did push the adoption of electric cars far more than most traditional car companies did. I also don't really feel like giving my money to support a company run by a guy like him.


I think the "180-turn" part is a far more valid point and ignores what I think is actually the cause here, which is the "have to deliver value to shareholders on a quarterly basis" mentality that controls almost all business here, especially ones that are tied up in a lot of VC money. These are people that, unless you can show results that your change is increasing profit/shareholder value every three months will lose their shit. It's why nobody can embark on long-term projects and actually move the needle in a meaningful way, because long-term gains in exchange for short-term losses are impossible. Then you get that 180-degree turn and "we're no longer focusing on that", because the investors are mad and it's a convenient scapegoat for the *actual* things the overpaid CEOs are doing wrong, which might include overpaying themselves millions of dollars when their companies aren't making any money.

Yes, but I think he was talking about policymakers, even though they do obviously operate in tandem/alongside those running the businesses?

I think the basic point is that some people got distracted and (somewhat separately) started running around in circles, while in the meantime others executed better.

[Rare White Ape]

I think if he exchanged the DEI stuff for discussion about rampant Sinophobia and misguided national pride, I'd say he has a good article.

As it stands, I'll give it a B-

[Tom Servo]

While I know you shit on Musk, and rightly so, for being a douchebag and the people who drive Teslas generally suck, you've definitely pointed out repeatedly that their electric cars and self-driving tech lags behind Chinese automakers.

I get your point about the protectionism being from policymakers and not CEOs, and see how you could see his "what capitalism should be about" might be related to the protectionism rather than whether DEI is good or not, but that could have been so much clearer. That second paragraph could have started with something like "While Western CEOs failed to commit to initiatives under pressure from short-sighted investors, leading to ill-conceived governmental protectionsm, Chinese companies forged ahead..." That would have made the point clear. It may be that the author is going for the strict definition of "virtue-signaling", which in this case would mean that the CEOs never actually believed in DEI, they just were doing it because they thought it would get them good press, but at least out here in the west, which is who I believe his audience is here, it's used by douchebags to be "someone did something that isn't expressly to help straight white Christian males." Almost nobody who knows what it actually means uses the term. Kinda like "hot mess."

[Tom Servo]

Children's sunscreen.....gotta get that skin cancer started early kids!

Unfortunately some of this stupidity has been going around for a while. I had a friend who a good 3+ years ago was claiming that the sun doesn't cause skin cancer, sunscreen does. The same guy got it in his head that staring directly into the sun is good for your eyes, so take from that what you will.

[Rare White Ape]

Unfortunately some of this stupidity has been going around for a while. I had a friend who a good 3+ years ago was claiming that the sun doesn't cause skin cancer, sunscreen does. The same guy got it in his head that staring directly into the sun is good for your eyes, so take from that what you will.

Is this the same guy who sincerely thought that opening your innards out like a flower and exposing them to sunlight would protect you from the Wuhan virus that was grown in a lab in Wuhan and named after the town of Wuhan that has a virology lab?

[Tom Servo]

Hah, no, I'm not friends with that dude.

[Tom Servo]

What gets me about aforementioned friend - he's incredibly smart and an exceptionally talented engineer. Back in the day, he's almost the sole reason MySpace stopped crashing for everyone. But he's also a kook, and a good reminder to me that you can easily think you're much smarter than you really are *cough Musk cough*. He got caught up in the same kind of stuff that RFK Jr. did and a bunch of the Pastel QAnon world did - this idea that if things are natural, they are therefore better. The sun gives us life, therefore it cannot possibly damage us. Sunscreens are artificial, and therefore bad. Staring at the sun just gives your retinas vitamin D! To his credit, when he went to his optometrist and told her he was doing that, she basically said "What the fuck is wrong with you? Stop doing that!" and he stopped.

Nevermind the fact that anything "artificial" came from natural things, and that there's plenty of things that are natural, like cyanide, arsenic, carbon monoxide, rattlesnake venom, the list goes on, that are very fucking bad for you.

[Crazed_Insanity]

People can be smart and talented at different things. Do we really need to look down on folks who are deficient in areas where we think that should be common sense?

In a way, this is how diversity can be a strength! Why not let people shine in areas they’re good at? Unfortunately DEI ends up all about numbers game and forcing us to be equals. Heck, even Bernie Sanders isn’t for equality of outcome, but we should just make sure we all have equal opportunities!

Anyway, not really sure what’s happening in China just as I’m still not sure how Covid happened so no point speculating. I can only tell what’s wrong with America.

Once again I will use Boeing as a role model. Sure DEI can be problematic, but is it really the reason why Max crashed or door blew off or Starliner ends up with leaky valves? I kinda doubt that.

Was it because CEO got paid too much? If we make all past CEO’s return all of their compensations, will that make much of a dent on Boeing’s balance sheet? Kinda doubt that too.

I personally think our business and political leaders have lost their ways. When business was booming, Boeing spent nearly $50 billion buying back its own stocks to pump up its value! Should a company really be investing in itself like that?!?!

Same with our country. What do we want? For Russia and China, their focus is clear. They want to catch up and beat the US! Whereas the arrogant US leadership really have no clue what they really want.

Trump wants MAGA.

What does Biden/Harris really want? I’m not really sure. I think they just want to be ‘normal’ and not crazy like Trump.

If we continue to have leadership like that, for sure China will be able to leave US in the dust.

[Kchrpm]

This thread is a good reminder of why I don't bother really talking about politics with anyone, friends or strangers. People have their opinions, and they respect their own more than anyone else's, because they grew it themselves. Even as people become more informed they seemingly rarely change their mind. And I don't have the interest or drive to be the one doing useless informing, or being uselessly informed, in circles.

This forum is a relatively safe space where there won't be violence, threats of it, or the other nonsense that can happen on the web, so I can understand why the discussion happens here. I do hope that it's at least therapeutic for its participants.

[Tom Servo]

For sure sometimes it feels like screaming at a wall ("https://open.spotify.com/track/1aZDDZzjocgLYHHdHf2kni?si=07eaa4f4e8664f0b'), but I know I've had my mind changed (or at least understood other viewpoints) on here. The thing is, political posturing on here or any other online space is not about convincing the person you're talking with, it's about making your point for anyone else reading along. That is, admittedly, a very small group here.

It is great that we don't have a culture of death threats or doxxing or anything like that, and that's a great point. Maybe it's why I indulge in it here more than I do everywhere else - I'll throw out the occasional post on Facebook or Twitter or Bluesky, but I rarely do that. Sure, I'll have disagreements, but they never escalate beyond that.

FWIW, I enjoy talking politics with people. It's how I grew up. Our family always talked politics. My wife's family didn't, and she gets really uncomfortable, whereas I really enjoy it. So I rarely talk politics in real life with people other than at family gatherings, at which point we're mostly all in agreement so it's not contentious. But at the restaurant where I'm a regular and occasionally have discussions with a bunch of regulars who are surprisingly right-leaning for Santa Monica, we're still all friends, and when one of them who I would not be surprised to find out voted for Trump told me that I inspired him to go vote because I'd told him I was about to drop off my ballot, I was super happy that I got someone to vote. We don't agree on most things, but I'm happy my voting inspired him to do it too. Oh, and it wasn't like "I found out you voted and you probably voted for Harris so I had to vote against you", it was "oh yeah, you reminded me that I should do that before I forget, thanks for that!"

Well, admittedly the one regular who claims adding rail transport just brought in criminals and calls it the "crime train", our relationship might be a little more contentious. I'm fine, but he seems pretty mad and has not been particularly cordial for the past week. Turns out he's heard the term "correlation does not equal causation" and gets real upset when you say it, and is less than enthused that I'm as pro-train as I am.

[Rare White Ape]

"Crime Train" is actually pretty funny, even though it's way off kilter :lol:

[Tom Servo]

You have no idea. It's an actual name for it: https://www.smobserved.com/story/2023/08/20/opinion/tear-up-the-tracks-santa-monicas-crime-train/7742.html

Ya know, ignoring the fact that lots of criminals have cars and also there have been buses forever. And that there hasn't been a correlated increase at other stations. And that increases in crime around Santa Monica have been citywide, not just by the train station.

It's wild. Every once in a while I re-read that op-ed. Ridership is low, yet somehow it's bringing in unceasing numbers of criminals. As someone who has ridden it numerous times (it's way easier to get to downtown Santa Monica than driving and finding parking), it's completely normal and packed most of the time. It reminds me of the way MAGA types feel about immigrants or even non-immigrants that aren't of western European heritage.

It's fine. I have never had a single problem on this train. The worst I see are homeless folks sleeping in the only airconditioned place they can find.

[MR2 Fan]

I'm starting to see a trend happening and this is part of the Trump strategy to steal the election:

1. GOP operatives attempt voter fraud (Whether they actually get away with it initially or not)
2. Trump and his sycophants scream voter fraud happening (not mentioning its them causing it)
3. They will attempt to say election is rigged and push to have another way to decide election.

I'm HOPING there is a few extra states that Harris wins for the electoral college, so there's less possible paths for challenging the election.

[Crazed_Insanity]

This thread is a good reminder of why I don't bother really talking about politics with anyone, friends or strangers. People have their opinions, and they respect their own more than anyone else's, because they grew it themselves. Even as people become more informed they seemingly rarely change their mind. And I don't have the interest or drive to be the one doing useless informing, or being uselessly informed, in circles.

This forum is a relatively safe space where there won't be violence, threats of it, or the other nonsense that can happen on the web, so I can understand why the discussion happens here. I do hope that it's at least therapeutic for its participants.

This is only a forum for venting, which can be therapeutic at times…however, it can also be a great place for learning and understanding.

Think of having discussions with people of different sexual orientations… ain’t nothing you can say to convert them, and nothing they can say to convert you… unless you’re bi? ;) The best you can do is to try to understand one another more that’s all.

Both ChatGTX and ChatGPT can help you learn, but only ChatGTX could challenge you though. AI can only respond to your prompts, but this place is definitely more intellectually stimulating, at least for me. :p

[Crazed_Insanity]

I'm starting to see a trend happening and this is part of the Trump strategy to steal the election:

1. GOP operatives attempt voter fraud (Whether they actually get away with it initially or not)
2. Trump and his sycophants scream voter fraud happening (not mentioning its them causing it)
3. They will attempt to say election is rigged and push to have another way to decide election.

I'm HOPING there is a few extra states that Harris wins for the electoral college, so there's less possible paths for challenging the election.

Who ever wins, half of the nation is gonna be sad and mad…. I hope people will realize it’s only going to last for 4 years. There’s no need to do anything drastic…. Unless of course if Trump attempts to become a dictator, then I’m confident US military won’t betray our constitution and will take him down even if they voted for him over Kamala…

I seriously doubt USA will create Hitler #2.

He may be a lousy president, if he’s really dreaming to be a dictator, he could’ve been one back in Jan 6, 2020. Why wait til now?

[Yw-slayer]

While I know you shit on Musk, and rightly so, for being a douchebag and the people who drive Teslas generally suck, you've definitely pointed out repeatedly that their electric cars and self-driving tech lags behind Chinese automakers.

Oh, of course. That's factual but it's also part of showing that his hyperbolic claims have turned out to be unsustainable on both a relative and absolute level. You just can't trust the guy. It also has the benefit of showing Billi that OTHER PEOPLE can do a better job.

For a while (before he exposed himself as a crazy right-winger) the main complaints were those I mentioned previously, as well as the horrific trim on the cars. If you put all that aside and view the cars objectively, particularly through the lens of "electric cars for getting around in without too much of a fuss", they were fine, to the extent that for several years over here (i.e. during the period when all import duties were waived on electric cars and they had no real long-range competition), you might even say that they were PRETTY DECENT VALUE


I get your point about the protectionism being from policymakers and not CEOs, and see how you could see his "what capitalism should be about" might be related to the protectionism rather than whether DEI is good or not, but that could have been so much clearer. That second paragraph could have started with something like "While Western CEOs failed to commit to initiatives under pressure from short-sighted investors, leading to ill-conceived governmental protectionsm, Chinese companies forged ahead..." That would have made the point clear. It may be that the author is going for the strict definition of "virtue-signaling", which in this case would mean that the CEOs never actually believed in DEI, they just were doing it because they thought it would get them good press, but at least out here in the west, which is who I believe his audience is here, it's used by douchebags to be "someone did something that isn't expressly to help straight white Christian males." Almost nobody who knows what it actually means uses the term. Kinda like "hot mess."

I think I can see how the phrase "virtue-signalling" means different things to different people in different countries, contexts, systems, etc. A bit like the phrase "DEI" or some other even more volatile terms. Personally, I think he was writing for a general international audience.

The trains here are pretty much devoid of crime and probably explain why there is so little of it in the city. They're great!

Well, they were devoid of crime except for the period in 2019 when Billi's Brainwashed Bros decided that the railway system and company was their enemy because they were fare-jumping to evade the Police and do "flash protests" in different parts of the city, wailed hard when the Police decided to commandeer the trains to stop them doing so, then spent months thrashing railway stations by throwing molotovs into and around the stations and their exits, destroying ticket booths and facilities, throwing crap on the tracks, beating up people who were just trying to get to work and who didn't agree with their mob rule "strike" etc. etc. Well done Billi clap clap


I think if he exchanged the DEI stuff for discussion about rampant Sinophobia and misguided national pride, I'd say he has a good article.

Well, I think in fairness that even if he did hold those views, he wouldn't be able to make that point too obvious as he was writing (on economics and value creation, rather than purely politics) for a varied international audience. If he did and had, he might well easily get whacked and dismissed as a shill by some offended Billis and their Brainwashed Bros.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I just realized how we can best define the word fascist! It means the same as Billi!

Although I might disagree with that definition, but that doesn’t really matter though. Imagine if I’m actually white, I can totally be a Nazi! It is kinda amazing it really doesn’t matter people knew me for decades, as long as somebody disagrees with you politically, we can always un-know somebody.

This is why I stressed earlier that our aim really should just be to understand each other. Not to convert. It’ll also be impossible to understand if you’ve already decided that people with different orientations are evil.

I’m pretty sure most Trump supporters and most Kamala supporters are not evil. Unfortunately current political climate doesn’t see things that way.

[Tom Servo]

Yeah - unfortunately out here, we do have crime on the trains. It's a combination of petty thievery (don't sit near an exit and have your phone out, 'cause there's a good chance at the next stop someone will grab it and run off the train and you'll never see it again) and rampant drug abuse, with the rare actual severe crime (usually related to said drug abuse). They're more symptoms of what's going on all over the city though, and not unique to trains. I think you're still more likely to be shot/killed in a crash in a road rage incident than you are riding the trains, but I admittedly don't have the stats to back that up.

The E line (the one I usually use) has its western terminus at downtown Santa Monica (DTSM) station. It's at 4th and Colorado. At 2nd and Colorado, halfway to the beach, there is a McDonald's, which is a site for a lot of both drug abuse and drug dealing. A lot of the anti-train people point to that as a sign that the train brings crime. They forget that that McDonald's has been a site for that for at least the 26 years I've lived in LA. It is *notorious* for that and has been for decades. The train line has only been there for 9 of those 26 years, and since the train line went in, a lot of 2nd & Colorado has seen revitalization in the form of a new fancy hotel, the McDonald's being renovated, and the Santa Monica Bike Center opening up across the street which is a pretty popular place for people to rent bikes to ride on the beach and get repairs done on their bikes. I feel drastically safer there than I did back in the early 2000's. Back when I first moved here, you couldn't have paid me to go over to that part of DTSM. Now I'm over there all the time. Heck, I took bike maintenance classes over at the bike center, and it's still my main shop for having work done on my bike, even though it's 5 miles away and I pass at least three other bike shops getting there.

But...we've got goldfish-brained folks out here who don't remember things and think everything was so much better a few years ago or see an overall societal change and think it can be pinned on the one thing they don't like. Which I think is happening again. People forget that during Trump's first term, every day brought some new fresh hell. Some idiotic thing he was doing, or some new crisis. It was *constant*. But you hear people saying things were better then, and it's clearly the immigrants causing issues now.

A lot of people forget that Venice and Santa Monica used to be considered slums. Dogtown was Santa Monica, where skaters started out because so many abandoned homes had empty pools they could skate in. It's now one of the most expensive neighborhoods in the area. Those who don't remember history...

[Crazed_Insanity]

I really think Trump is the train you like to blame for America’s problems, but in reality our problems had been accumulating way before he came to office though.

[MR2 Fan]

I blame Reagan

[Crazed_Insanity]

To be completely honest, I'm not really sure who to blame... I tend to just blame on this blurred murky idea of the so called 'establishment'.

I really don't think it's any singular person's fault, but more like a collective failure. We for sure don't have a dictator, but we have this 'committee' that seems to have lost sight of what's important. I also think the idea of 'too big to fail' may be the main culprit for our failures. We end up with this false sense of 'security'? That what we have is way too big to fail so we can act however irresponsibly and somebody will always bail us out or else everyone will suffer, right? Well, I think we're inching closer and closer to universal suffering time if we don't wake up from that mentality. Early 2000 was the warning shot of when we acted irresponsibly politically with foreign affairs. Terrorists can get thru our fancy fighters and hurt us on US soil too. 2008 was also the 1st warning shot of our irresponsible financial decisions...

And sadly, I don't think US government and the elites are willing to repent or even acknowledge its problems. We continue on business as usual. Boeing is simply the 1st crack of an impending system wide failure. I do hope we can stop this crack from propagating..., but we have to start changing our ways and began repairs, not continue on business as usual...

Something has to change. Status quo is clearly unsustainable. It's really too bad this current leader for change is Trump. I really wish it could be somebody else. It should've been Bernie Sanders.

I'm still holding on hope that God must've saved that orange man for a good reason?

I know Trump and Elon may look like assholes, but let's just try to be objective here... if you can only pick GM or Tesla stocks to put in your 401k plan... which would you pick? Likewise, between Boeing and SpaceX, which would you pick?

For you foreigners, just imagine if somebody gives you free stocks to hold on to for a long time... which ones would you pick? Do you really believe Tesla will go bankrupt before GM? SpaceX will go bankrupt before Boeing?

[Tom Servo]

A good reminder to not believe a word Elon Musk says.

https://www.reuters.com/legal/judge-weighs-challenge-elon-musks-1-million-voter-giveaway-2024-11-04/

[Yw-slayer]

That sucks, Tom. Isn't there some study which shows that people generally gloss over bad memories?

[Crazed_Insanity]

Wow. An illegal fraudulent scam and judge allowed it? Why??? That judge must love Elno very much? Not gonna take this up to the Supreme Court?

[Tom Servo]

Oh good, Elon's been sharing videos from National Revival, a neo-Nazi accelerationist group. Things are going just fuckin' great over here.

It's only 7 in the goddamn morning on election day and we're already at "the billionaire who started a PAC to push Trump is sharing neo-Nazi content."

[Yw-slayer]

Did you know that in Cantonese, Pennsylvania is pronounced the same way and uses the same characters as (a two-word slang phrase for) penis.

SKELETOR: Until we meet again.

[Tom Servo]

Now I've got "Penisylvania" in my head, like it's some weird Dracula porn town.

[dodint]

Voted this morning. A little old lady in line ahead of me was wearing an ear diaper. We're deeeeeeep in Trump country (Westmoreland county, PA) but I thought that fad had passed already.

[Tom Servo]

Yeah, that's pretty passé. If you're not rockin' a pet squirrel, what are you even doing?

[Rare White Ape]

An ear diaper?

All I can say is lol

and

rip america

[sandydandy]

Just a few hours away now from seeing the first results. Feeling nervous excitement.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Regardless who the winner is, there’s really nothing to be that excited about!

Unfortunately, half of the nation is gonna feel like it’s the end of the world no matter what though… :(

[FaultyMario]

Just a few hours away now from seeing the first results. Feeling nervous excitement.

Someone on the internet: "Like waiting for the results from your STI test".

[sandydandy]

Unfortunately, half of the nation is gonna feel like it’s the end of the world no matter what though… :( Sad but true.

[Tom Servo]

Went to Total Wine in Brentwood to pick up a kind of white wine that Michele likes to have for tonight. As I'm getting out of the elevator, a guy is getting in with a MAGA sweatshirt and another guy says "Nice shirt man!" to which he replies "Thank you, brother."

They walk among us. The damned are within our midst.

For the record, my Sepultura shirt was way cooler.

[G'day Mate]

Regardless who the winner is, there’s really nothing to be that excited about!

There's plenty to be scared about if it goes one way though, and relieved if it goes the other.

[Yw-slayer]

Prepared to lol whatever happens.

[FaultyMario]

donnie's goons are frightful. Specially that idiot who has been studying and imitating Goebbels' mannerisms.

Harris' team is nothing to write home about, but nothing can induce abulia like an organization directed by Magas.

[Rare White Ape]

Prepared to lol whatever happens.

I’m hoping for a democrat president, so that genocide can be done quietly and with decorum.

[Yw-slayer]

That, and the rank hypocrisy which is somehow combined with whining and bitching, will continue anyway.

Hence, prepare to lol.

[sandydandy]

It’s looking like Trump is going to win this thing.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Our Father in Heaven!
Halloween been kinda lame, (but at least kids had fun!)
Now as Americans cast their votes, may Your kingdom come and Your will be done!
Give us today, not the lesser of 2 evils, but the best elected officials possible!
Also forgive us of our polarization and please deliver us from division!
For this so called United States of America is Yours… and may its powers only be used for good and also be able to bring glory to Your name! Thanks Jesus! :)

[Tom Servo]

Well, shit looked real bad on election day in 2020 since a lot of states only start count mail-in ballots after the in-person ones are done, so I'm still trying to hold out hope.

Otherwise, I'm noting down the names of you "both sides are the same" motherfuckers that are no better than Billi on that front, and am so excited to see how you feel about that in a couple of years.

No joke, I've got a calendar entry to ask you dopes about whether it didn't matter.

[Yw-slayer]

lolling

[Leon]

Is this April Fools day? It's looking like it might be.

[Tom Servo]

lolling

Keep going, dude. It's certainly a good call. There's nothing that could possibly go wrong with you being a massive dick.

[21Kid]

WTF?

:(