Politics

[tigeraid]

Dan Rather facebook post (he has some good stuff to say, I recommend following if you're on there.)


Dan Rather
3 hrs ·

As with many of my fellow Americans, I don't consider myself partisan politically - never have. I am a registered independent voter and have been for most of my life. With that in mind, I submit the following:

Can we please get this out of the way? None of what is happening at the top of government now is normal. None of it. And no one should normalize it. No one.

We have a President who lies without a second thought. Big bold lies that are easily disproven. That is not normal.

We have serious allegations around obstruction of justice by that President. That is not normal.

We have an FBI director fired for insisting to continue pursuing a serious investigation into the sanctify of our republic. It has never happened before in our history. That is not normal.

We have a hostile foreign power attacking and undermining our electoral process. That is not normal.

We have an Attorney General under a serious shadow of association with said foreign power, with indications that there is much more to this story than we yet know. That is not normal.

We have Federal judges, our closest foreign allies, and the free press under scurrilous attack from the President and his enablers. At the same time we have despots praised. That is not normal.

We have an Administration fanning the flames of division over race, ethnicity, religion, sexuality, and gender. That is not normal.

We have an overhaul of our entire health care system being written in secret on a rapid time frame. That is not normal.

We have a sordid confluence of the President's business interests and his political power. That is not normal.

The list could go on and on. And feel free to add your own to the comments section.

What concerns me even more than any of these items is the fact that they are largely being met by a shrug or excuses from most Republican elected officials. Even many Democrats seem overwhelmed and are inclined to let some of this just ride. That may be how politics works. But this is bigger. It's about our nation.

We are shifting the goalposts for our democracy. We are failing to be outraged by the outrageous because there is something even more outrageous that always seems to hit the news cycle. And that is dangerous.

What gives me hope is we have had waves of abnormality in our country's history. And we've had times when what we would consider now to be not normal, like segregation, was considered normal. What has centered and saved our country time and again is civic engagement. I believe that most people in this nation don't think any of this is normal. And they could very well vote out those elected officials in both parties who are normalizing these outrages.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Agree with 99% of what Rather said..., except we're unable to vote these politicians out. System needs an over haul! Forget Donald, forget Hillary... Even when we had Obama in office, people still have to work hard on making black lives matter! Our democracy doesn't work very well anymore and can be easily influenced by money and foreign powers. Our abnormal government no longer represents the American people..., only abnormal special interests end up driving our government...

[Tom Servo]

I don't mean to be too snarky here, but democracy is only controlled when the electorate a) doesn't bother to vote or b) doesn't bother to educate themselves and vote based on things like TV ads. Kinda like *exactly* what you were doing with the propositions in a recent election.

Unless we start having actual, real cases of voter fraud, the power in democracy still belongs to the people. An apathetic electorate is what allows what you describe to happen.

[Crazed_Insanity]

So you also believe Hong Kong China is also a true democracy as long as voters participate in it and properly educate themselves about what/who they vote for? (See the earlier Ted talk video I linked)

When we end up with the worst congress ever and Donald trump, it's easy to just blame it on voters like Billi, but I really believe it's indicative of a broken corrupt system that needs a reform.

Anyway, if you're right, what would be your fix?

Increase voter participation and increase voter research time, while making sure they stay off TV and Internet news? Not sure how these things can happen at the same time. At the minimal, we need to reform the media and stop fake news..., that's be easier to do than to reform voter behavior. From that front, the best we can do for average American is make sure we have better education and make sure our education isn't languishing behind other nations...

[Tom Servo]

False equivalency is false.

[thesameguy]

But we kind of do have voter fraud. We have gerrymandering on an epic scale fueled by incredibly accurate data, and we have economic powerhouses who can prop up or bury candidates of their choosing, and we have an entire sub-economy that to a large degree cages elected officials once they've taken office. It's not Of the People, By the People if the choices we're given have to receive QC stamp from corporate America and it's not Of the People, By the People when those same entities work very hard not only control the results with influence, money, and even widespread (mis)information campaigns. It's not dead people submitted ballots, but it's a far cry from a level playing field or even a fair game.

[Crazed_Insanity]

False equivalency is false.
You seriously believe we are where we are today only because of voters like me? Our political system is just perfect?

If you refuse to watch my linked video, read tsg' points and tell me that those things are caused by billi voters.

[sandydandy]

Puerto Rico may become your 51st state. (http://www.cnn.com/2017/06/09/us/puerto-rico-statehood-vote-2017/index.html)

Question is, why would anyone want to join the US at a time like this?

[Crazed_Insanity]

If you have a lot of debt and the mafia is trying to collect, wouldn't you want to marry to somebody who can print his own money? Even if that somebody is Donald trump?

[Leon]

If this thread was a game of "Call of Cthulu" a few people would be making a sanity roll by now.

[Tom Servo]

You seriously believe we are where we are today only because of voters like me? Our political system is just perfect?

If you refuse to watch my linked video, read tsg' points and tell me that those things are caused by billi voters.

No, I reject your premise that I must believe something about Hong Kong based on what I said.

[thesameguy]

If this thread was a game of "Call of Cthulu" a few people would be making a sanity roll by now.

A+

But, seriously, PR is already a territory. They are sort of like a state without any states rights. They could very well be better off as #51 than they are now.

[Crazed_Insanity]

No, I reject your premise that I must believe something about Hong Kong based on what I said.

Chinese communist party is not equivalent to US economic elites, but I do believe they each have a strangle hold of the future of their nations, from that, I believe in the equivalence.

Now, that's not a premise you must accept to know how screwed up our political system is. I'm pretty sure if we could somehow get rid of all republicans and billi voters, US Congress still would not be able to fully represent the remaining Americans' will..., because they don't really work for the American people anymore. Our democracy is an illusion.

Anyway, and I think the Russians figured out how to play our political game.

[FaultyMario]

Puerto Rico may become your 51st state. (http://www.cnn.com/2017/06/09/us/puerto-rico-statehood-vote-2017/index.html)

Question is, why would anyone want to join the US at a time like this?

Especially after they got shafted by the Treasury.

[Kchrpm]

Ha!

"Tweets will be official presidential records if the Covfefe Act passes" (https://www.engadget.com/2017/06/12/tweets-will-be-official-presidential-records-if-the-covfefe-act/)


America's 45th president has a habit of writing and then deleting his social media posts and US Representative Mike Quigley wants him to stop. As such, Quigley on Monday introduced legislation to force the National Archives to include "social media" as part of the Presidential Records Act and he's calling it the Communications Over Various Feeds Electronically for Engagement, or "Covfefe" Act.

[thesameguy]

We absolutely need that - if the prez is going to use social media to talk to the people - and maybe he should - then those writings need to be captured just like anything else. On a personal level, the name is superb but I'm not sure I want to codify such a gaffe as part of US History. Future generations giggling about the time we elected an idiot and then made light of his idiocy sounds a bit idiotic.

[Kchrpm]

It should serve as a warning to all future generations.

[thesameguy]

I'm pretty sure if we could somehow get rid of all republicans and billi voters, US Congress still would not be able to fully represent the remaining Americans' will...,

There are strong hints at this unfolding right now, with a progressive splinter group forming under Bernie Sanders that is leaning away from more centrist Democrats. For a while, "Democrats" have largely managed to hang together, but Bernie's "we can and should do better" campaign seems to have awakened a remarkably large faction of people who agree with him. It'd be really amazing if we're witnessing the birth of a 4-party system... liberal and conservative centrists surrounded by legitimate socialists and... I don't know... some sort of neo fascists? I seriously don't know what you call the group of far right-wingers we're cultivating. I don't think there is a lot of precedent for a system of government based on Christianity, racism, and extreme capitalism. Someone coin a term, dammit.

With any luck, one of the California secession plans will work out and I won't have to care anymore.

[thesameguy]

It should serve as a warning to all future generations.

I think you have more faith in humanity than I do! Nobody reads the warnings!

[Crazed_Insanity]

I don't think there is a lot of precedent for a system of government based on Christianity, racism, and extreme capitalism. Someone coin a term, dammit.
People here can just call it a Billi Party! :D

However, I personally am not for racism and extreme capitalism. I'd rather be in Sander's party.


With any luck, one of the California secession plans will work out and I won't have to care anymore.
I kinda doubt that would happen. However, maybe we can negotiate a deal with Puerto Rico... and help America save money by keeping existing flag design by giving our star on the flag to PR! ;)

[thesameguy]

I agree it's unlikely to happen, but people have been talking secession for years. By and large, California supplies more to the Federal government than we receive. Trump's election is just more leverage - now not only are there economic disparities on the radar, but also some fundamental, irreconcilable social differences. Even conservatives in California are looking at some of the -ists and -phobics of the Trump contingent as too much... and I'm talking about groups of people who screwed with 420 and gay marriage distancing themselves. California may have a strong conservative presence, but they're not animals. Well, they still sort of are, but fixable. Trump and his crew is not.

[Crazed_Insanity]

To give Trump some credit..., I really think he's a different man now. He wasn't always like this. For one, he wasn't even a born again Christian before.

Similarly, I think Obama changed a bit upon entering the oval office. I thought I voted for a Bernie Sanders, but during his term, he has slowly turned into another Hillary Clinton.

Something in the White House changes people. Just like the Lord of the Ring I guess.

[MR2 Fan]

To give Trump some credit..., I really think he's a different man now. He wasn't always like this. For one, he wasn't even a born again Christian before.

Similarly, I think Obama changed a bit upon entering the oval office. I thought I voted for a Bernie Sanders, but during his term, he has slowly turned into another Hillary Clinton.

Something in the White House changes people. Just like the Lord of the Ring I guess.

http://www.blindfiveyearold.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/leonardo-dicaprio-inception-squint-7110.png

[Leon]

It should serve as a warning to all future generations.

Yes. I agree with this. I believe the political system can be bought, therefore is fundamentally flawed through lack of representation of the *people*. It is representing the *money* quite well however.

[MR2 Fan]

I think unfortunately as a country we have to hit "rock bottom" before people who aren't voting will realize what is going on and that they need to actually do something.

When that happens, if enough of people turn out, could relegate the existing GOP to history....demographics are already in favor of democrats in many places, even the southern states IF they actually go out and VOTE

[thesameguy]

To give Trump some credit..., I really think he's a different man now. He wasn't always like this. For one, he wasn't even a born again Christian before.

Trump is the same guy. Maybe a bit more of a caricature of himself, but he's the same narcissistic attention whore he's always been. He, like other people of his ilk, are just so far removed from the repercussions of his actions that he (probably rightfully) believes he can mostly do whatever he wants and the results won't really affect him. He's free to court lunatics and tweet insanities because tomorrow is going to be the same as today. His situation is not going to materially change because someone didn't like what he said or how he acted. I think having some layer of abstraction is important for a leader - you can't make those hard decisions when you have actual skin in the game - but too much abstraction is a problem. The asshats in government wouldn't ban things if it meant they couldn't have what they wanted, and they wouldn't ruin things if it meant their stuff was ruined. Trump is always going to be able to get married, he's always going to have healthcare, and his air will always be clean. He has never cared about these things, and will never care about these things. Not the way that regular people do.

Trump is from New York and I'm sure by nature identifies more with the Bill & Hillary crowd than the GOP crazies, but he perceived an opportunity to get on top by taking advantage of those angry white people. He didn't create the people, he just figured out how to leverage them. Catering to their crazy only improved his situation. If he bans Muslims and gays and clean air and free speech he still has beautiful Mar-a-lago. He is the Coca Cola Corporation. He is a useless product that at best kills you slowly. But he knows exactly who his customers are and how to profit from them. He can sell his shitty syrup to you, and drink perfect fresh water for a long happy life. He's going to be fine, and he knows it.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I think unfortunately as a country we have to hit "rock bottom" before people who aren't voting will realize what is going on and that they need to actually do something.

When that happens, if enough of people turn out, could relegate the existing GOP to history....demographics are already in favor of democrats in many places, even the southern states IF they actually go out and VOTE

I don't think you understood what I was trying to say earlier..., the main problem of us hitting rock bottom isn't because of low voter turnout or dumbass voters. The way our districts are gerrymandered, the way that our politicians need to raise money constantly... and the fact that economic elites have a tight leash on our politicians(able to nominate who they want and tell them what to do), I really do believe that even if we have 100% voter turn out and highly educated and intelligent voters, we'd still hit rock bottom. Just look at our previous election. It was a race between the collective economic elites' darling Hillary and another economic elite Trump. Whoever wins, average Americans lose.

The rich would like us to just blame our problems at our political oppositions... so that neither realizes that the real reason we can't have what we want.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Trump is from New York and I'm sure by nature identifies more with the Bill & Hillary crowd than the GOP crazies, but he perceived an opportunity to get on top by taking advantage of those angry white people. He didn't create the people, he just figured out how to leverage them. Catering to their crazy only improved his situation. If he bans Muslims and gays and clean air and free speech he still has beautiful Mar-a-lago. He is the Coca Cola Corporation. He is a useless product that at best kills you slowly. But he knows exactly who his customers are and how to profit from them. He can sell his shitty syrup to you, and drink perfect fresh water for a long happy life. He's going to be fine, and he knows it.

Yeah..., this is what I meant that he's seems way 'different' now..., but it's mind boggling why he's still 'acting' crazy now. Before he needed the votes..., but now what for? Even ignore his daughter's wish by going against Paris deal.

The guy is just too unpredictable for me..., but I hope he knows what he's doing...

[neanderthal]

I'm glad to have Billi on my ignore list right now. The responses to his statements really show how off kilter the thoughts between his knee bone and hip bone are. Said only because they can't be thoughts between brain cells.

I mean, who thinks Trump is a born again Christian now where he wasn't before? Trump is playing a part, rubes are falling for it. He's as Christian as my last dump.

Jesus famously said "render unto Ceasar ..." and I don't see Trump hurrying to pay taxes. The Bible also said "love thy neighbor ..." but i don't see Trump walking back his statements on Mexicans, Muslims, Obama, Clinton, ...

Back to the bliss that is ignoring Billi.

[Crazed_Insanity]

To have complete sanity, ideally, you shouldn't even be reading or responding to any of my comments... Also, just as Trump quoted the London Mayor out of context, I believe I'm oftened quoted and then understood out of context.

Trump being a born again Christian right before entering the white house highlights one of this rapid transformations. We just don't know who this guy really is... he is shape shifting just like Hillary Clinton.

[Tom Servo]

Ooh, ooh, ooh, I'll bite. As far as I can tell, you've always insisted Hillary was a crook. How has she shapeshifted?

[thesameguy]

I don't recall any assertions about Clinton being a crook, but you just can't argue that '90s Hillary would have a very positive opinion of '10s Hillary. What we can see of her has definitely changed. It's probably not for being evil or malicious or "a crook," and more likely simply her situation and her opportunities have changed. Back in the '90s she was largely associated with people-first ideals, and these days she is as much or more associated with Wall Street speeches and funneling money from questionable people into her Foundation. I wouldn't go so far as to see she has actually changed - the only things we know about any person like this is what we see and read, so it's totally possible she is the same person with more access to what I would broadly call distasteful choices. Calling her a thief is probably unwarranted based on the facts at hand.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Ooh, ooh, ooh, I'll bite. As far as I can tell, you've always insisted Hillary was a crook. How has she shapeshifted?

I wouldn't say always.

Shapeshifters have no integrity; therefore, crooks. They're both crooks, that's why I didn't vote for either.

There was a time when I like Hillary. I think she was a fine 1st lady back then, but as a senator Clinton, she started her shape shifting career:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12mJ-U76nfg

Anyway, Hillary is yesterday's news. I'm sure she's a decent person without big money influencing her. Heck, I'm not even sure I can maintain integrity if somehow I attained a lot of money or power... even I could potentially become a 'crook'. I wasn't trying to judge her as a bad person who deserve to rot in hell or anything like that. It's just that her track record caused me to lose faith in her as a national leader. I won't vote for her. I won't vote for her because of Trump or whoever other crooks running against her. No more lesser of the 2 evils.

Is Trump better? It's now obvious...

Both candidates are unacceptable! To you, maybe status quo is acceptable...

We're often left to choose and fight between the two crooks.... because of our awesome democratic political system?

IMHO, we need to reform our political system to discourage "crooked" behaviors. Currently, I think it's probably safe to say that most of our politicians are 'crooks'. 100% voter participation and intelligent/informed voters won't be able to change that.

Bernie Sanders to Earth is like Frodo to Middle Earth.

Hillary could've easily won my vote had she ran against George W Bush. I think I'd even prefer her over Al Gore back then.

For now, I just want more politicians like Bernie Sanders...

I'm not going to legitimize these crooks with my votes.

[Tom Servo]

I don't recall any assertions about Clinton being a crook

You clearly have had a stronger will with the "View Post" on Billi's posts than I have. That said, I was avoiding quoting him for those that have him on ignore, so that was pretty specifically aimed at him.

And then I was unable to parse his word salad.

[thesameguy]

I'm not big on being mean to people in general and strongly believe the only way people come together is through discourse, even when it's not easy. Next to fixing Saabs, probably only useful attribute.

[Tom Servo]

I'm not big on being mean to people in general and strongly believe the only way people come together is through discourse, even when it's not easy. Next to fixing Saabs, probably only useful attribute.

I like to think that I'm the same way, but after a while I got tired of being put into false equivalencies, such as the recent one where my argument that an apathetic electorate is a big part of what allows big money to control elections somehow makes me believe that the exact same thing is true of Hong Kong's democracy. I'm not trying to be mean, I'm trying to protect myself.

[thesameguy]

I hear you, no worries.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Tom, so when you view that TED talk, were you pissed off with is HK comparison? Or you're just pissed off because billi agrees with it and linked it?

Actually, did you view that TED talk?

[Tom Servo]

I haven't. I haven't done much of anything because you started your post positing that I must believe one thing because I said something else.

You might even be right. I dunno, because you immediately put words in my mouth and I immediately said "Oh, here he goes again" and didn't bother with the rest of it.

[neanderthal]

I''m all for discourse. Especially with varied viewpoints; that's how one learns and grows. I'm NOT for discourse that's clearly molly coddling a viewpoint that's been dismissed already.

I had a friends' wife, real christian people, who i ... "trapped" (don't know if that's the right word!) by simply pointing out the inconsistencies of what she was saying versus what the Bible says. And, much like Billi here, she dilly- dallied and red herringed and strawmanned her way to nowhere. I stuck with the simple, single solitary question, over and over again, not responding to anything else she said, and blatantly told her that there was nothing I would say to her until she answered that one question. Haven't spoken to her in almost ten years.

Discourse isn't me listening to someone and them not listening to me. Something Billi doesn't seem to get. Often enough anyway.

Real discourse, especially vis a vis politics, requires being able to listen to someone else, not just wait them out when they talk so you can get back to talking. Ingest and consider what they've said and apply it to your dogmas and beliefs. If it effects no change then I expect counter arguments that render my statements null and void, so that i may reconsider my own position and make necessary changes.

When I, my brother, and my cousins debate, ... lets just say we've had a roomful of coffee shop patrons surrounding us, then applauding when we finished. One dude interjected with a point we'd already addressed, i looked at him with a "who the fuck are you and what are you doing in this discussion" look, my cousin, ever the wise ass simply said "look dude, you wanna get in with that point, come back 30 minutes ago" and we moved on.

Of course, we did Toastmasters in school, had debate in earlier years prior, and understand the structure and composition of a debate. One of the fundamental tenets of Toastmasters is you don't move on without addressing your learned colleagues point. I won't abide that.

Got that Billi? Good. No ifs, ands, or buts. I won't see your response though. :lol:

[neanderthal]

I haven't. I haven't done much of anything because you started your post positing that I must believe one thing because I said something else.

You might even be right. I dunno, because you immediately put words in my mouth and I immediately said "Oh, here he goes again" and didn't bother with the rest of it.

He does that a lot.

[Godson]

I'm a bit shocked that nobody has posted anything about the Congressional shooting.

[Tom Servo]

I'm a bit shocked that nobody has posted anything about the Congressional shooting.

My guess is there's not a lot to debate with that. It was horrible, and I'm glad the only person killed was the shooter.

[sandydandy]

My guess is there's not a lot to debate with that. It was horrible, and I'm glad the only person killed was the shooter. The congressman is in critical condition.

The shooter's Facebook profile was memorialized and people are taking a shit all over it.

I wonder what the NRA has to say about it, since it was an extreme liberal terrorist, (I won't say mentally ill lone wolf, cause obviously that's reserved for far right wing nut jobs).

[Crazed_Insanity]

I like to think that I'm the same way, but after a while I got tired of being put into false equivalencies, such as the recent one where my argument that an apathetic electorate is a big part of what allows big money to control elections somehow makes me believe that the exact same thing is true of Hong Kong's democracy. I'm not trying to be mean, I'm trying to protect myself.
Swervo, rather than getting pissed of at me, why not stick to the topic at hand?

Whether if voter apathy allowed big money to involve more in politics or perhaps voter apathy is the result of big money's tight grip on our political process?

HK was simply used for comparison purposes by the TED talker and I assumed wrongly that you saw that. Regardless, our discussion does not require you to accept everything that I said in order to continue. I honestly don't quite understand your need to 'protect' yourself.

You self admit to being the snarky one. You also seemed to claim that voters like me cause problems in our democracy. Anyway, maybe those were responses after you felt like I attacked you or your beliefs? I've never been on any debate team nor in toastmasters, maybe I should consider joining in order to improve my delivery methods. Quite often I find that TSG and I have very similar ideas, but when I deliver the message, it causes a flame war, when he delivers it, you guys may not fully agree, but at least everything's still civil...

So I realize I still have a lot to learn..., also makes me apprehensive about joining toastmaster..., if I speak my mind there, wonder if it'll cause people there to hate me so much to want to shoot me too. At least in this forum, I'm somewhat safe... ;)

Anyway, besides big money problem, we also need to ease up on our political polarization..., or else more 'terrorists' from both sides of the political spectrum might show up on our news... Sigh...

[Tom Servo]

Ugh.

Okay, first off, I'm not pissed at you. I just don't feel like engaging in what I believe will ultimately be a fruitless conversation that will leave us both frustrated and annoyed.

You say that our discussion does not "require you to accept everything", yet your premise in your very first sentence started with "So you also believe". You didn't ask how I felt, you put words in my mouth or asserted that I *must* believe one thing because I believe something else, and I merely answered that they are not equivalent, so the entire premise is shot. You like to do that, a lot, and I'm protecting myself from having to explain yet again about how the world is not black and white.

In the end, I don't think it matters whether voter apathy caused big money or if big money caused voter apathy. My *only* point was that unless there's actual vote manipulation (or voter suppression, natch), big money ONLY works if you let it. Most people do, but everyone has the power to research and determine who they want to win (or who they think has the best chance of keeping out someone they really don't want to win). Most of the money goes into campaign advertising and such, and that only works if you let it. Then I cited a specific example, namely you saying you didn't have enough time to research the propositions in Nov. despite there being more days left prior to the election than there were propositions, and it really doesn't take much longer than 10-20 minutes to get a general handle on one of them. Snarky? Yeah. I still stand behind it, though, and it no way, in ANY WAY, indicates a specific belief of mine about any other country's government.

That's my problem. Don't tell me what I think or believe.

[Tom Servo]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DCTm1SFUAAAD5HL.jpg:medium

That tweet did not age well.

[thesameguy]

Well, it's not wrong.

What is fun about the shooting is hardcore right wingers seizing the opportunity to condemn the liberal movement.

https://news.vice.com/story/leftist-terrorism-political-blame-game-begins-after-virginia-shooting


Michael Savage, the popular conservative radio host and author, tweeted, “I warned America the Dems’ constant drumbeat of hatred would lead to violence!” And Breitbart promoted the response of Republican Rep. Steve King of Iowa, a perennial bomb thrower, who said, “Violence is appearing in the streets, and it’s coming from the left.”

Savage totally nailed it.

I am so sick and tired of politicians blaming crazies of any type on politics. People are crazy because they don't get the help and support they need to not be crazy. When someone speaks up with a concept or idea to give that crazy some thrust and direction, bad shit happens. What a damned revelation.

I am so tired of "it's broken because you broke it." What about it's broken because you didn't fix it?

[Crazed_Insanity]

Ugh.

Okay, first off, I'm not pissed at you. I just don't feel like engaging in what I believe will ultimately be a fruitless conversation that will leave us both frustrated and annoyed.

You say that our discussion does not "require you to accept everything", yet your premise in your very first sentence started with "So you also believe". You didn't ask how I felt, you put words in my mouth or asserted that I *must* believe one thing because I believe something else, and I merely answered that they are not equivalent, so the entire premise is shot. You like to do that, a lot, and I'm protecting myself from having to explain yet again about how the world is not black and white.

In the end, I don't think it matters whether voter apathy caused big money or if big money caused voter apathy. My *only* point was that unless there's actual vote manipulation (or voter suppression, natch), big money ONLY works if you let it. Most people do, but everyone has the power to research and determine who they want to win (or who they think has the best chance of keeping out someone they really don't want to win). Most of the money goes into campaign advertising and such, and that only works if you let it. Then I cited a specific example, namely you saying you didn't have enough time to research the propositions in Nov. despite there being more days left prior to the election than there were propositions, and it really doesn't take much longer than 10-20 minutes to get a general handle on one of them. Snarky? Yeah. I still stand behind it, though, and it no way, in ANY WAY, indicates a specific belief of mine about any other country's government.

That's my problem. Don't tell me what I think or believe.

Let's start with post #9002, I commented on a post made by Dan Rather. Nothing about you nor your beliefs. I said I agreed mostly with what Rather said, except I don't believe American people can really vote ourselves out of this political mess.

In #9003, you proceed to engage me and tell me that I'm off with my slight disagreement with Mr Rather. I believe you believe that as long as there's no voter fraud, then this should still be a true democracy! You also think my way of voting is what contributed to our current political problems. Now, I hope I'm not premising anything, but those are just the things I picked up from your post which was premised with your snarkiness. :p

Anyway, I assumed you viewed that TED talk I linked earlier, my mistake. That was why I 'asked' you whether if you believe HK has true democracy. It was in a form of a question. I really wasn't aware that I was making a premise as something you must believe. I only brought up HK because the TED talker illustrated various similar points to show how the USA is also no longer a true democracy because of the tainted nominees in elections!

I can accept YOUR 'premise' that I'm a lousy voter, but I can almost assure you that even if my kind are no longer allowed to vote... or become very informed and have 100% voting rate, regardless of how black or how white or how gray I become, USA's political situation will not improve because I vote more often and more intelligently... because we voters are no longer in real control of our political future. That's just my belief.

If you just cannot see my point, we can just agree to disagree or I'd like to hear your thoughts on how informed and involved voters can keep big money out of politics when often times we have money tainted candidates coming in from both sides? Tell me what YOU believe please..., or not, if you're really frustrated with this.

I'm honestly not here trying to make you 'bite' and then get you frustrated.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I am so sick and tired of politicians blaming crazies of any type on politics. People are crazy because they don't get the help and support they need to not be crazy. When someone speaks up with a concept or idea to give that crazy some thrust and direction, bad shit happens. What a damned revelation.

I am so tired of "it's broken because you broke it." What about it's broken because you didn't fix it?

Yep.

However, I think it's probably too much to ask politicians to fix this though. They'll probably just fix this by beefing up security to ensure they have a safer future. Just as they would never ever come up with a version of healthcare that'd be good enough for both themselves and the people they supposedly serve...

But of course, I hope someone will eventually step up and come up with a more comprehensive fix...

[MR2 Fan]

Well, it's not wrong.

What is fun about the shooting is hardcore right wingers seizing the opportunity to condemn the liberal movement.

https://news.vice.com/story/leftist-terrorism-political-blame-game-begins-after-virginia-shooting



Savage totally nailed it.

I am so sick and tired of politicians blaming crazies of any type on politics. People are crazy because they don't get the help and support they need to not be crazy. When someone speaks up with a concept or idea to give that crazy some thrust and direction, bad shit happens. What a damned revelation.

I am so tired of "it's broken because you broke it." What about it's broken because you didn't fix it?

I don't know where violent rhetoric is coming from the left in general, except the kathy griffin and caesar play thing...most on the left are against those messages.

[thesameguy]

That's what's so great - it doesn't matter!

You can say whatever you want, blame whoever you want, make insane connections that people with less information can easily digest and put to work. Bernie Sanders and his message of hate towards freedom needs to be stopped!

But, for the sake of clarity, I think "we" do that too. We say gun rights advocates are hell bent on shooting up playgrounds. It's just not so. There are crazy people out there, and they get guns, and they do shitty things with guns. If we take guns away, will the shitty things stop? Fuck no. They will park UHauls full of fertilizer in front of buildings, they will fill backpacks full of nails and explosives, and they will drive vans down crowded city streets. Guns and access to guns are not the problem. "Conservatives" are not the problem. "Liberals" are not the problem. Crazy people - born crazy or driven crazy - without access to help and hope - are the problem.

I don't know how you create a society that provides for self-advancement and self-fulfillment for everyone, but pointing fingers isn't even part of that process.

[21Kid]

But, I mean... Being able to get a shotgun for opening a bank account doesn't help.

[Drachen596]

Theres too much generalizing and stereotyping going on.
When that happens it seems to provoke the crazier of the crazies into doing something.

There has been a TON of stuff going on to make the opposition seem less than human by both sides which certainly doesnt help.

[thesameguy]

But, I mean... Being able to get a shotgun for opening a bank account doesn't help.

I agree, but does it hurt? How many people have opened fire on a crowd with their free bank shotgun? How many people that have opened fire on a crowd wouldn't have driven a van into it instead?

I don't want to have the gun rights debate, I just want to illustrate the fact that crazies be crazy. This man Hodgkinson thought Bernie's speeches about universal healthcare were reasons to open fire on a baseball field. He's not thinking right. Rather than point fingers about who was the bad parent or discipline the kids by taking their toys away, maybe we should focus on being the best parents we can and teaching the kids how to properly play with their toys.

It's totally cool if you see it differently, my experience is just that taking the toys away from kids doesn't make them better kids. And yes, I am extrapolating one year of parenting into running a country. I really, truly believe that outlawing things doesn't make the things or their side effects go away. Coke has been illegal for nearly a century, but I guarantee you I could buy some this afternoon without trying very hard and coke is a big part of some of the worst crimes in this country. We have speed limits and street signs and anti-cell-phone laws and people are running into each other really hard. We have to drive 4000lb SUVs just to be safe. The stuff isn't the problem. The people are the problem. Give people the things that they need to use the stuff, and give them the things they need to not misuse the stuff and proper use of the stuff will probably follow. Probably!

[Jason]

When a conservative kills a bunch of people, its just a 'lone wolf' who has 'mental illness' and 'needs help'.

When a muslim kills a bunch of people, its 'religion of violence' and 'we need to bad muslims'.

When a liberal injures a bunch of people, 'this is proof that the left is violent' and 'if CC was universal, this wouldn't happen'.

[Drachen596]

Take away one weapon and they'll find another. Look at the truck/knife attacks in England, the one at the Ohio university. Germany.
The world is full of things that can be used to kill or injure people.

TSG is right. its a responsibility issue. Everyone seems to think someone else is responsible for them. People think they can text and drive because fuck it i have 7 bazillion airbags and other safety features to protect me in a crash. they then forget to put on their seat belt as well. I see a LOT of people suddenly put on seat belts when they see my Crown Victoria near them in traffic.

[Crazed_Insanity]

When a conservative kills a bunch of people, its just a 'lone wolf' who has 'mental illness' and 'needs help'.

When a muslim kills a bunch of people, its 'religion of violence' and 'we need to bad muslims'.

When a liberal injures a bunch of people, 'this is proof that the left is violent' and 'if CC was universal, this wouldn't happen'.

What's CC?

Conservative Christian?

There can be liberal Christians too... Anyway, just guessing...

[Drachen596]

What's CC?

Assuming he means Concealed carry. Honestly i believe the universal CC is more about not having to guess or learn 50 different sets of laws to do so.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Hey, why not lump everything together? An universal affordable conceal care act? With everyone packing, everyone's gonna need healthcare in case of crazy accidents! Repeal this law, you'd repeal gun rights too! Best of both world! Of course there won't be a mandate. You don't have to carry or go to the doctor if you don't want to... ;)

[Jason]

I'm about as anti gun as they get, and even I know that 'banning guns' wouldn't do shit in this country.

- Way too many guns on the street, so everyone would have them still, just illegally
- Like you said, we'd still find other ways to kill each other
- We still have the systemic issues from lack of healthcare and economic desperation
- We still have a for profit prison system that prefers an inmate return over rehabilitating them and giving them the foundation to be a productive member of society
- Education is largely tied to home values, which means those in poorer areas have less education and less options to stay out of trouble

And this is just the top of the shit-berg. We have major cultural, societal, and political changes to make before we 'stop the violence'. Also, it's fucking embarrassing that *this* attack is what is getting people talking again, yet we've ignored something like 150 mass shootings this year alone.

[Drachen596]

FWIW i feel some of the healthcare issues are similar to the prison system one. For example my mothers type 2 could be easily controlled with diet alone but none of the doctors have recommended it or even suggested an attempt at it. they just prescribe pills like metformin and similar.

A lot of the issues tie back into personal responsibility, or at least appear to.

There is a LOT of dumbassery that takes place on all fronts when it comes to life in the US. The KKK is still around, you've got AntiFa using violence. You've got some people that cry racism or cultural appropriation over what seem to be stupid shit like the burrito shop that got forced to close recently. They're fucking burritos, why not go after Taco Bell or Chipolte? You've got idiots boycotting Wonder Woman for all sorts of reasons ranging from Gal Gadot being Israeli to omg this theater had a womens only showing.

I don't know how to fix it, maybe this is just how countries/empires/whathaveyou fall apart and end?

[Jason]

You say personal responsibility, I say unfettered capitalism. The reason doctors push drugs so often is because that's what they get paid to do by pharma. The reason prisons don't provide a foundation for re-entry into society, is because it's profitable to get the inmate back.

[novicius]

And yes, I am extrapolating one year of parenting into running a country.
Wait what? You're a papa now, TSG?? :twitch: :up: #congrats??

[thesameguy]

Wait what? You're a papa now, TSG?? :twitch: :up: #congrats??

Hells no. I was to a teenager through most of '03 and '04, some of '05. Her mom was very into taking things away. It didn't work on me, and it didn't work on Sophia. Why anyone could ever think it'd work on a country full of adults is beyond me.

I would do it again, but I'm not willing to endure baby. Ever.

[thesameguy]

You say personal responsibility, I say unfettered capitalism. The reason doctors push drugs so often is because that's what they get paid to do by pharma. The reason prisons don't provide a foundation for re-entry into society, is because it's profitable to get the inmate back.

Yep, I would agree with this. But I can't get 5 people to agree on lunch. No idea how you get 500,000,000 people to agree on a standard of living.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Unfettered capitalism is pretty much the same as unfettered personal responsibility. Same difference.

So we can narrow this down to 'unfettered' or having no self control or cancer. Yes, empires fall and patients die because of this.

[MR2 Fan]

y0 dawg, I put a lawyer on your lawyer, so you can defend while you defend!



@KatyTurNBC

Exclusive: Trump personal lawyer, Michael Cohen, has hired his own counsel: Stephen Ryan, of McDermott, Will & Emery.- source w knowledge

[thesameguy]

https://assets.mubi.com/images/film/99436/image-w448.jpg


M: I got 6 stock brokers, 14 doctors, 2 lawyers, 17 accountants and 8 other lawyers to watch the first 2 lawyers!

[21Kid]

You say personal responsibility, I say unfettered capitalism. The reason doctors push drugs so often is because that's what they get paid to do by pharma. The reason prisons don't provide a foundation for re-entry into society, is because it's profitable to get the inmate back.
Agreed.

I was going to respond to the "People gonna kill anyway" posts. But, didn't want to start another gun discussion. So, I'll just say I disagree.


Yep, I would agree with this. But I can't get 5 people to agree on lunch. No idea how you get 500,000,000 people to agree on a standard of living.I think part of the problem is how apathetic most people are. They give zero shits about anyone but themselves.

[thesameguy]

Also -

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/06/rod-rosenstein-trump-recusal/530637/

:lol:

[Crazed_Insanity]

This is getting more and more interesting...

[thesameguy]

I think part of the problem is how apathetic most people are. They give zero shits about anyone but themselves.

I actually think it's worse than that. Something I have been struggling with for a long time is what I would broadly call materialism, but it's a much deeper problem. A long time ago - maybe even here - I joked that I believed the US Government is quietly subsidizing televisions and programming companies to keep people subdued. As long as people continue to be enthralled with whatever real housewives might be up to, they'll stay out of blander and more confusing social matters. I joked, but seriously, even if the details are fuzzy the outcome is the same.

A few months ago I watched Requiem for the American Dream, and one of Chomsky's points discussed the change in the American economy in the '60s from a production based economy to a finance based economy. The nature of jobs, media, and expectations changed and, well, you can watch it. But, as far as I'm concerned, he's right. It's not apathy. American advertising has gotten scary good at getting inside our heads. They tell us what to eat, how to feel, and how to judge ourselves. With the onslaught of messages about what you need to do and what you need to buy I think it's impossible for the average citizen - probably even most citizens - to have the willpower to care about things as far-fetched as medicine, the poor, or race relations. You need to worry about your outdoor furniture, your dinner, and what amazing travel destination you can squeeze onto your credit card tonight.

I am sick of reading articles where idiots recount the stories of how they never imagined how hard is was to see a doctor until they needed one, or how awful the inner cities are until they visited one. The information is there. The knowledge is available. The reason you didn't know is because you were obsessed with bullshit, an obsession created on you and for you by groups that are trying to leverage you. Who needs pods to sap electricity from people when you can just advertise them into doing what you want?

I'm not a fatalist but I don't see how this is fixable. Until people turn off the facebook machine, turn off the TV, and start walking around the world and seeing what's actually going on we will continue to be manipulated into an accumulation of comforts and protection of those comforts at the expense of others. So, maybe more near-term, people are not going to care about other peoples' health and happiness until they are confident their health and happiness isn't threatened. I seriously don't know how to even start, I don't know the vector. The only thought I have is that we need to unwind rather than reset - we need to make everyone feel comfortable and safe where they are so that we can start pulling away the layers of protectionism and excess. Sometimes it seems very clear and sometimes it seems the system is spinning too fast to even attempt brakes.

I think I might be a utilitarian. How odd.

[thesameguy]

But, also, I don't really care. I have 30 years or so left here. I've got no kids, nobody I'm trying to design a future for. I am 100% confident things are going to hold together for my lifetime. After that, what do I care?

[Kchrpm]

I actually think it's worse than that. Something I have been struggling with for a long time is what I would broadly call materialism, but it's a much deeper problem. A long time ago - maybe even here - I joked that I believed the US Government is quietly subsidizing televisions and programming companies to keep people subdued. As long as people continue to be enthralled with whatever real housewives might be up to, they'll stay out of blander and more confusing social matters. I joked, but seriously, even if the details are fuzzy the outcome is the same.
I was at a restaurant where the bartender had this exact same opinion, but of alcohol rather than TV. The irony of being a bartender with that theory was not lost on him.

As for the other stuff, I sometimes have a mental struggle with the fact that I am trying to run a charity drive *and* save up for a really expensive and nearly useless car. I will spend far more on the car than I will on the charity, which I have shown is at least somewhat important to me.

I've heard it explained before that the mind can only deal with so much stuff actively. Every person can't possibly think of ALL the injustice and pain going on around the world, it'd drive us all insane. So most of it we never see, and most of what we do see goes in and then straight out. Only the people who become personally affected by something usually take on that particular thing, and there are far more things that they don't take on.

But I don't know how that's affected by the concept that our slots for worry and care are being filled up with superfluous things, whether personal luxury goals, or fictional things. Society has always sought comfort, but the idea of ongoing fictional narratives (and the drama that surrounds their real world creation) seem relatively new.

[MR2 Fan]

This may be long and rant-y

I started watching a documentary called "Obsolete" last night...but only got about 30 mins through it as it wasn't exactly what I expected, but the basic idea is that we'll all be replaced by automation eventually, and we have to prepare for that.

There are MANY different forces at work right now and it does seem to be a bit of chaos overall. I'm seeing old businesses and old money using what power they still have to try to prevent new , cleaner industries from taking over (Trump and Coal for example) and we're seeing similar things happening in other parts of politics, etc.

One of the forces at work is the notion that we will, I believe, start to become more self-sufficient in our communities and less reliant on imports of goods to lead a comfortable life.

I can't help but feel like the good will eventually outweigh the bad as far as industry and politics goes, but I also feel like this is generational, as in we may not see major change in this generation, with so many older people who are xenophobic, right-wing and basically plugged into anti-left or even anti-centrist rhetoric daily (there's a documentary about that as well that I haven't watched as it would probably make me depressed)

I do think there are a lot of other good things going on, however the question is, if it's too little too late, and why we have the GOP trying to completely SABOTAGE all progress being made. It's truly sickening how brazen they're being. It would be one thing for Democrats to call out the GOP on how much money they're taking from special interests to put these bills through, ut the Democrats are often taking money from OTHER special interests (Thanks, Citizens United!)

I'm ready for a third Progressive Party...or Bull Moose Party

[thesameguy]

I've heard it explained before that the mind can only deal with so much stuff actively. Every person can't possibly think of ALL the injustice and pain going on around the world, it'd drive us all insane. So most of it we never see, and most of what we do see goes in and then straight out. Only the people who become personally affected by something usually take on that particular thing, and there are far more things that they don't take on.

Yes, for sure. And I would never expect or really even hope that one person would take on the world's struggles, nor would I really hope that someone would give up their comfort for another. I don't think there is anything wrong - or even less then ideal - with pursuing nice things for yourself.


But I don't know how that's affected by the concept that our slots for worry and care are being filled up with superfluous things, whether personal luxury goals, or fictional things. Society has always sought comfort, but the idea of ongoing fictional narratives (and the drama that surrounds their real world creation) seem relatively new.

Seeking comfort is natural, but I think a few things have changed in the last fifty or so years which have modified a natural need into something which is a bit more sinister. There are a lot of things to throw under the bus here, but two things really stick out in my mind:

1. Reality TV is the worst perpetrator - but is hardly the only - of presenting fantastic lifestyle punctuated by mistreatment of others. When you see other people living a certain way, acting a certain way, it's justification for you to do the same. I will damn near guarantee the sale of luxury branded goods can be tied directly to reality TV. When I was a kid, you may have gotten screwed with Wranglers instead of Levis, but that was the pinnacle. These days, you can spend a months' wage on fucking jeans. I'm sure those things existed in the '80s, but nobody knew about them. Now they do, now they aspire to that ownership. Now they go into debt or sacrifice other important things to have those things. At the same time, we are inundated with people being "overtly sneaky" in these weird, contrived social competitions. We are being given the ok to treat other people poorly in order to "win" - it's an insane reinforcement of our most basic tendencies. No more "if you can't say something nice," now it's "wait for just the right moment to unload something terrible on someone else." It's awful.

2. Feeding that machine is the pace of consumer goods refresh. Fashion and technology have dovetailed into this unsustainable "reinvent yourself seasonally" approach to life. Get the new shoes, get the new phone, get the new sofa, get the new speakers. I am all for art and technology (I'm calling fashion art, it's fair) but when you get in peoples' heads and convince them they will be cast out unless they participate you're sponsoring a race to financial oblivion. Nobody wears the same jacket for a decade, nobody uses the same dishes for a decade. It was hard enough for my parents to "save for a rainy day" when people did keep stuff for a long time, now we live in a time of declining effective income while be pressured to buy more stuff. I would feel differently if this consumer goods machine fed a larger economy, but the truth is that it's a fucked up reverse Ponzi scheme where vast numbers of people trickle up money to a select few. And that select few includes the government. The government loves this economy because they can levy taxes on their whole damned thing, growing their enterprise and lining their pockets.

These together create a mindset of fear - fear that people are out to get you and get your stuff, or even fear that people are out to prevent you having that stuff. The Muslims, the Blacks, the Gays, the Whites. All the great stuff we (HA! Like I was there!) started in the '60s got undone real quick when the fear set in. When you have a problem with your stuff, look around, there is some group of people you can probably blame, so take your pick. Someone is out to get you. Until we remember (or learn?) how to get along with each other, until we learn that green grass and blue skies and clean air are more important than overstuffed couches and Personal Ionic Breeze machines, until we get the messages that more and new is better out of our heads nothing is going to change. It can't. There is no angel on our collective shoulder.

Everything we observe today is a natural evolution of people who value the thing in the moment rather than the thing over time, which is exactly what this '60s transition started. I think about it a lot. Like, I could probably write some wack manifesto on some days. Other days I'm pretty convinced it's not my problem, and if you like your reality TV and your new annual living room set go for it. By the time it's really a problem, I'll be long gone.

Nobody is perfect, nobody is going to do the right thing all the time, and that is human and that's ok. But I think we need to do something about these counter-productive messages from MegaCorp, Inc. so that when individuals fuck up, there are groups ready, willing, and able to pick up the slack. It takes a village, so to speak, and we don't have one.

[Jason]

I've heard it explained before that the mind can only deal with so much stuff actively. Every person can't possibly think of ALL the injustice and pain going on around the world, it'd drive us all insane. So most of it we never see, and most of what we do see goes in and then straight out. Only the people who become personally affected by something usually take on that particular thing, and there are far more things that they don't take on.

I'm significantly happier when I ignore politics and the news, I know that for sure. But in the end, I have this nagging feeling, and I have to stay aware and involved in some form or another. Which makes me miserable, and I hate it.

[Tom Servo]

I enjoyed a friend of mine's post on FB. I'm sure he won't be pissed if I recreate it here.



Not to burst too many bubbles here, but there's a lot of "violence is never the answer" rhetoric flying around after that GOPer got shot, and that's a load of shit.
.
Now that I got that surprise punch out of the way, I will reiterate that I wish the guy had not gotten shot, and I don't want anyone else getting shot or stabbed or beaten or blown up for political reasons. It's not that I don't think anyone deserves it, that's a very personal distinction and I don't really let myself even start down the "does X deserve to die?" line of thinking. So on a personal level I haven't concluded that ANYONE should die for politics because I explicitly keep that topic taboo.
.
The reason is more practical. Once people start shooting their political opponents, their political opponents start shooting back. The escalation here is ridiculously dangerous, and there's really no upside since whoever you shoot has friends, family, and supporters who just feel even more strongly now. Kind of like when we blow up civilians in the middle east and 10 of the target's friends now decide to take up arms against the US. It's just a dumb, destructive strategy.
.
That said, stop pretending there's "no excuse for violence." Think about that old joke - "Would you fuck me for a dollar? Ok how about a million? Alright, now we know what you are, we're just haggling over price."
.
Unless you're Gandhi-esque, and if you haven't watched that movie through to the end go look up what happens, at some point you're going to have had enough. The NRA's "cold dead hands" slogan is just shy of an actual threat of violence against law enforcement, so this shouldn't be news. Granted the NRA is a shitheel of a fringe organization, but you have a line too. Maybe it's getting laid off while your CEO banks a record bonus. Maybe it's your kid getting sick and not having treatment. Maybe it would take direct violence against you, whatever. You have a line.
.
My point, since I flipped between "don't shoot people" to "sometimes shoot people" is simple - we're not at a point where reasonable people will resort to violence, but we're getting a little closer every year. And every time you inch closer to what makes normal people snap, you capture a few more fringe people.
.
How to stop this shit? Well, stop broadcasting high officials getting away with blatantly criminal acts, like the Attorney General perjuring himself on camera, or Trump literally admitting to obstruction of justice in an interview. It makes people feel powerless. Like the system is failing and they have to do something. That's why right-wingers were so angry at Hillary. Fox News kept telling them she was clearly guilty of something in Benghazi (I'm still not clear what) and was getting away with it. The difference between getting cleared by like 27 opponent-led investigations and bragging about a felony are huge, but the effect ended up the same.
.
I honestly think the root cause of this mess we're in is the difficulty in prosecuting news outlets that deliberately lie and trick people. I'm pro-free speech, I'm not pro-lying.

[MR2 Fan]

one more quick note about materialism....isn't there some backlash by millennials about fashion brands right now? I thought many of them were preferring to go for cheaper clothes instead of namebrand stuff (probably a change of priorities due to economic issues)

[Crazed_Insanity]

It takes a village, so to speak, and we don't have one.

Yep. I'm beginning to think that's probably where it all went wrong. We don't really know our neighboring villagers anymore. Heck, we don't even really know some of our friends and family anymore thanks to social media or whatever busy lifestyles. With regard to future generations. How much time do you actually spend with them? Who is raising influencing your children? If you're not having any children, that certainly won't bode well for any village's future...

My solution? Spend more quality time with those around you. Make love and have children. At least 1... or 2? Don't forget to spend quality time with them too! And ask not what your village can do for you, but ask what you can do for your village!

Actually, that ain't my solution. God has long taught us to love our neighbors and to be fruitful and multiply! ;) But what does God know anyways...

[MR2 Fan]

Actually, that ain't my solution. God has long taught us to love our neighbors and to be fruitful and multiply! ;) But what does God know anyways...

That he only knows how to multiply people and divide them?

[Yw-slayer]

Sick burn.

[MR2 Fan]

Has anyone heard about the relatively new idea from some of tech's biggest names regarding a minimum living wage (or something, I can't remember the exact term).

Basically the idea that with automation taking jobs away, that people will need a basic level of income to survive. I know this goes against lots of right wing conservatives that immediately equate this to communism and everyone should something-bootstraps-something, blah blah.

Beyond that, I believe it is an interesting discussion and ties into what I mentioned previously....we're going to see a radical shift in how everything is done in the next 1-2 decades. Will we be ready for it is the question.

Awareness is most important...if we can predict how soon and when these changes may take place (ahem, like Amazon buying Whole Foods, possibly taking over a grocery market and using less retail cashiers, etc. in the process), then we can better figure out things.

Honestly, I get the sense that most of our current government really has no clue about real financial and market economics and just does knee jerk reactions to whatever people like Grover Norquist tell them.

Anyway, it seems like Google and Amazon are slowly taking over the world.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Minimum living wage can only be implemented when our society learned to have some personal responsibility.

Like i said before, if most villagers are only looking for what the village can give them, then it can't be sustainable. Only when most villagers are actively looking for something to do for the village, only then can this minimum living wage concept work out.

[FaultyMario]

You mean Universal Income.

Not IT's big shot's idea.

[thesameguy]

I have read a bit about the future automation, but I don't think anyone has a really concise idea about what it will entail. World history is punctuated by the replacement of man by machine - we've got the cotton gin or the Northrop loom or robotic car factories and at each step along the way people have more or less retained employment - maybe by designing new machines, fixing new machines, or doing some aspect of work that machines can't do. I'm not 100% convinced that whatever the next phase looks like will really displace that many people. To some degree, it's like the discussion that the switch to green energy kills jobs... well, it does, it kills coal mining jobs but creates wind turbine building jobs. I'm not suggesting the rollout of automation will always leave room for people, only that there may not need to fretting right now.

What I like about the idea of a guaranteed income is that it has the potential to solve some other concerns. If we just ensure everyone has $1000/mo to live on, we might have the opportunity to scale back other social services - foot stamps, Medicare, subsidized housing ("Section 8" in California), CPS, etc. I read one analysis that suggested the financial burden of a guaranteed income would be far less than it initially seems because implementing could wipe out an enormous area of bureaucratic overlap and waste. Just the idea of taking money out of the government and putting it to work for people makes me giddy inside.

[MR2 Fan]

I have read a bit about the future automation, but I don't think anyone has a really concise idea about what it will entail. World history is punctuated by the replacement of man by machine - we've got the cotton gin or the Northrop loom or robotic car factories and at each step along the way people have more or less retained employment - maybe by designing new machines, fixing new machines, or doing some aspect of work that machines can't do. I'm not 100% convinced that whatever the next phase looks like will really displace that many people. To some degree, it's like the discussion that the switch to green energy kills jobs... well, it does, it kills coal mining jobs but creates wind turbine building jobs. I'm not suggesting the rollout of automation will always leave room for people, only that there may not need to fretting right now.

What I like about the idea of a guaranteed income is that it has the potential to solve some other concerns. If we just ensure everyone has $1000/mo to live on, we might have the opportunity to scale back other social services - foot stamps, Medicare, subsidized housing ("Section 8" in California), CPS, etc. I read one analysis that suggested the financial burden of a guaranteed income would be far less than it initially seems because implementing could wipe out an enormous area of bureaucratic overlap and waste. Just the idea of taking money out of the government and putting it to work for people makes me giddy inside.

:up:

[Crazed_Insanity]

Just the idea of taking money out of the government and putting it to work for people makes me giddy inside.

That's the million dollar question. If people have this sense of security and able to divert attention to focus on productive endeavors, the money can be a great investment! However, given our discussions earlier..., do you guys really believe people can have that much personal responsibility given the free money? Will that free money really suddenly cure people's materialistic urges?

[thesameguy]

That's the million dollar question. If people have this sense of security and able to divert attention to focus on productive endeavors, the money can be a great investment! However, given our discussions earlier..., do you guys really believe people can have that much personal responsibility given the free money? Will that free money really suddenly cure people's materialistic urges?

Yeah, I don't know. I see people buying energy drinks with food stamps at a local gas station and it makes me a little uneasy. I'm sure a lot of people on government assistance got there because they aren't good at dealing with money... I'm not the person to construct a foolproof system, if one could even be devised, but obviously we can't scale out a system where every citizen requires direct government oversight to function. At some point, you have to incorporate trust in the people. What I do know is that having a Bureau of Food Assistance, a Bureau of House Assistance, a Bureau of Internet Assistance, a Bureau of Child Assistance, a Bureau of Medicine Assistance, and a Bureau of Old People Assistance, creates an enormous amount of redundancy, and that specializing in areas of citizens' lives will not provide the same results as a more holistic, comprehensive approach. Somewhere between credits that can only be spent at a government store and free reign is where we gotta be, I just don't know where. I have heard that since California revised its food assistance program to expand where it can be used and on what it can be used, it's been a better, more successful program. Maybe it's something to look at for a broader system of care.

[Godson]

You say personal responsibility, I say unfettered capitalism. The reason doctors push drugs so often is because that's what they get paid to do by pharma. The reason prisons don't provide a foundation for re-entry into society, is because it's profitable to get the inmate back.

Far from accurate. The reason they don't bother with talking about it is because nobody fucking listens. Don't get me started on this.

[Crazed_Insanity]

So if they don't talk about it and you don't want to start it... Those who actually want to know would never know...

[Crazed_Insanity]

Yeah, I don't know. I see people buying energy drinks with food stamps at a local gas station and it makes me a little uneasy. I'm sure a lot of people on government assistance got there because they aren't good at dealing with money... I'm not the person to construct a foolproof system, if one could even be devised, but obviously we can't scale out a system where every citizen requires direct government oversight to function. At some point, you have to incorporate trust in the people. What I do know is that having a Bureau of Food Assistance, a Bureau of House Assistance, a Bureau of Internet Assistance, a Bureau of Child Assistance, a Bureau of Medicine Assistance, and a Bureau of Old People Assistance, creates an enormous amount of redundancy, and that specializing in areas of citizens' lives will not provide the same results as a more holistic, comprehensive approach. Somewhere between credits that can only be spent at a government store and free reign is where we gotta be, I just don't know where. I have heard that since California revised its food assistance program to expand where it can be used and on what it can be used, it's been a better, more successful program. Maybe it's something to look at for a broader system of care.

Yep, totally agree we don't need govt micromanaging how we spend, and we also don't need that many wasteful ineffective agencies..., but I also don't trust average Americans to not waste the money on drugs or alcohol or latest iPhones...

I think we 1st need to focus on companies able to offer living wages. If you don't perform or just don't fit, at least companies can let you go... Only then govt assistance should kick in. Now if you remain on govt safety net assistance for an extended period of time and still cannot find a decent job or find your niche in the society ..., then perhaps you need govt to intervene and micromanage your life for you... Whether it's to help you quit whatever addictions or mental issues... Hey, if govt is providing shelter and food for you, if you just cannot stand up on your own 2 feet, big govt deserves to have the right to tell you what to do. If you don't want that, then you can move to Canada or Mexico! ;)

Anyway, I just don't believe it's a good idea to just give everyone $1000 or whatever amount of money every month. It may help boost our economy, but average Americans will probably be worse off... poor will still be poorer... And of course the rich will take the money and invest them and be richer!

[MR2 Fan]

:o

https://img-9gag-fun.9cache.com/photo/azq79XB_700b.jpg

[mk]

I have read a bit about the future automation, but I don't think anyone has a really concise idea about what it will entail.
My prediction is that future incereases coal mine jobs but for robots.
(nano tubes)
Other one is that first wave jobs to go is non-hardware service jobs.
(language AI)

Artificial eye can already beat doctors and atrificial pinch is behind the corner.

For guaranteed income I'd say Henry Ford and salary hike.
Up to a point all goes to consumption.

[Crazed_Insanity]

:o

https://img-9gag-fun.9cache.com/photo/azq79XB_700b.jpg

Hope USA will soon learn that enemy of your enemy will never be your friend!

If you wish to declare war on your enemy, go ahead! But don't try to covertly mess with your enemy by supplying arms to the enemies of your enemy. Hussein and Bin Laden were once the enemies of our enemies... We know how those 2 turned out.

The amazing part to me is that regardless of whether we have W or Obama or Trump, history just keep on repeating itself. We just can't learn for some reason. Actually Trump is too early to tell. He's probably the 1st president to be sleeping with our enemy. Maybe Syria's conflict will finally end thanks to the good relations our president has with Putin.

[FaultyMario]

I think the recent re-freezing of Cuban-US relations sheds some light on other Trump executive failures.

It seems to me that he will not listen to dissenting opinion, I think he even disregards it. This new policy seems to favor a small group of people that opposed the Obama changes. But by making these changes, he is opposing a number of people, I would say the majority, that were not necessarily in favor of Cuba, but rather supported a strengthening stance of the U.S. in the hemisphere as a force of diplomacy.

I think he groups together the "negatives" and the "haters" and foregoes the added knowledge that comes from giving some merit to your opponent's arguments and reflecting on their validity.

[21Kid]

He DGAF what anyone thinks. Anything he does is pretty much based on Obama = bad. They're just trying to undo anything with his name on it. No matter how generally accepted it was/is.

[Tom Servo]

I think he does and doesn't. I think part of the reason Obama = bad is because the people on Fox and Friends keep saying so. I remember him saying not too long ago that he thought Obama was nice, but then found out that Obama was tapping his office (he wasn't) and now seems on a tear to undo essentially anything related to Obama. He also thinks he's a great judge of character and surrounds himself with people he sees as "loyal", and those people often can get his ear. Those people often are yes-men who ultimately have their own agenda, but he believes he's powerful enough to punish those that would cross him.

At least that's how I see it. When it comes to the Fox and Friends thing, though, you can literally correlate his irate morning tweetstorms with things they say.

[FaultyMario]

http://youtu.be/BKaDCP-wKr8

[George]

^ three cheers for the Godfather Of Grunge.

[Jason]

MR2, thanks for sharing that Syria image post... it really is a complicated shit show :|

[MR2 Fan]

MR2, thanks for sharing that Syria image post... it really is a complicated shit show :|

Yeah, I thought we learned from Iraq that sometimes letting evil regimes stay in place is better than the alternative, and that was right next door!

[thesameguy]

Unstable regions are unstable regions. Why anyone believes you can bomb a place, put a temporary police force in place, and then have a stable region is beyond me. Is there any example of that actually working out?

[Leon]

Yeah, I thought we learned from Iraq that sometimes letting evil regimes stay in place is better than the alternative, and that was right next door!

You appear to actually have an evil regime currently in place, at home.

The USA, not specifically *you* :)

[MR2 Fan]

You appear to actually have an evil regime currently in place, at home.

The USA, not specifically *you* :)

true...and its interesting to think about whether another country would invade *ahem* liberate us to "save" us from our regime, how a vast majority of people would feel about that, and the kind of things they'd want to do that country that invaded.

[Leon]

I'd offer NZ to invade you guys. But we've got like half a dozen planes, and they're all of the search and rescue type.

Put it this way, the RNZAF strike fighters used to be Skyhawks until a couple of years ago. Now we just have none.

[sandydandy]

Trump Effect in Canada?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zl5JKDIlsbU

[21Kid]

And we've got 4,000+ rotting in the desert. :(

[Jason]

We have way more than 4,000 racist women rotting in the desert.

[tigeraid]

Trump Effect in Canada?


Oooooh believe me, just hang out in London or Windsor for about a half hour. Might as well be West Virginia.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Bit of local politics...
http://www.sgvtribune.com/social-affairs/20170619/application-withdrawn-for-veteran-homeless-housing-in-temple-city

Short story: Homeless situation in LA is bad. Voters out of guilt or frustration or mercy voted for a bunch of money to help solve this problem. A site, currently a motel, was picked to be redevelop into low cost housing for homeless and veterans. Local residents were outraged because it's near couple of elementary schools, plus who know what this will do to local housing prices. Residents bulked at the proposal, so the deal is haulted.

My take: This site is right at my neighborhood. Our real estate agent neighboring friend initially informed us few months ago of this bad idea brewing and want us to join her to block this deal. I was hesitant at first... because personally I'd prefer a low cost housing rather than a run down motel in my neighborhood. Few weeks back, I even saw a flyer in my mailbox encouraging us to speak to our city council to block this deal and listed out reasons why. So I asked our friend about this again, but she seemed to have given up fighting because she claimed that it's a done deal... 'kick backs' between politicians and developers are already exchanged.

But just this morning I was surprised to hear on the radio saying the the deal is halted. According to the news, this deal is scrapped thanks to the heartless residents' opposition. However, according to our real estate agent friend, it's only because the motel failed a certain requirement to properly seal the deal...

Anyway, so even local politics is playing out in a similar fashion. We can have 2 polarized residents, one for and one against, duking it out against each other as mortal enemies... all the while not really knowing what's going on behind closed doors. The political fights between voters make little difference really..., in this case, politicians and real state developers stand to gain no matter what. Surely they'll find a new location and profit off of the money intended for the homeless and the veterans else where.

So to the residents who fought hard against this, they probably actually believe they won the battle... and those who are in favor of the housing project probably thought the city is full of Trump supporting haters... Media also further plays on this notion..., but the reality is that it's business and corruption as usual for the 'establishment'.

[thesameguy]

I really hate NIMBYs. So much. It's not even a rejection of an idea, just a rejection of the location of the idea. So shitty. Especially when it comes to people that need help - you'd rather have an abandoned building than shelter for human beings based on something that might happen? Fuck you. Build the place, see how it goes, and remediate if necessary. Don't not start because it might not work out.

Around here (vaguely) there are a few spots where the homeless set up makeshift camps. It's ugly. But what's the alternative? Sleeping in doorways and park benches? Tearing down the camps isn't going to disappear the homeless people, it's just going to move the effects of the homeless elsewhere. Maybe instead of tearing them down you roll the police through every so often to discourage drugs, etc. and put a fucking trash can in the area so they can clean up after themselves. Give them a chance, it's not like the underpass was being used for something else. Same thing with that motel... put it to work.

I just can't wrap my head around people. We're awful.

[Random]

They use the underpass near my office for camps periodically. I don't mind the camps as much as I mind the pee smell, piles of feces, and used syringes that are left behind. :|

The one guy that sweeps the sidewalk every day is cool, though.

[thesameguy]

Good call - need some way to handle poo. For real. Nothing is as disconcerting as a human poo on the ground.

[Kchrpm]

Wouldn't they be pooing inside if they have a place inside to poo, though?

[Crazed_Insanity]

TSG, I agree NIMBY's are no good, but I can understand their concerns...

But moral of my story isn't about NIMBY's though.

The deal fell thru not really because of NIMBY's, it fell thru just like other real estate deals that fell thru... but media helped blame it on the NUMBY's anyway. Not entirely blaming the media, surely not a lot of folks knows what's really going on behind closed doors...

So next time thru, another more sympathetic city will allow it in their backyard, but I hope local politicians there and developers won't be as corrupt so they can build a bigger facility for the same amount of money...

Anyway, the homeless situation is difficult to solve. From my experience, most folks on the street are there willingly. They don't really want to pay for a permanent place to live nor do they want a typical job. They just beg or dumpster dive to eat... living rather like Jesus while he was roaming on earth. There are also a good portion of homeless who have mental or severe addiction issues. I don't have hard data, but I'd gather that's majority of them. Permanent housing will not help those folks. They need to be in clinics or institution that help them kick addictions. However, I'm sure most of them also wouldn't agree to being 'locked up' in those clinics either.

There's really no easy solution to this problem..., but what I hate the most is that taxpayer money allocated to help these folks are being eaten up by politicians and real estate developers.

[thesameguy]

Wouldn't they be pooing inside if they have a place inside to poo, though?

Maybe? I think the problem with managing homeless people is that are lot of them are nuts, so you can't really anticipate that if you provided bathrooms (or trash cans, or even beds) that those things would actually get used... or used properly. And it only takes one severely disturbed person to ruin things for everyone. I could easily see a scenario where the locality provided portos and they just ended up vandalized, etc. It really sucks. But, the cost of trying is low. It's always worth trying and while I'm not that well traveled, I don't reckon I've ever seen it tried.

It really upsets me that the government will gleefully foot the bill for food and shelter for someone who likes weed but doesn't try nearly as hard for someone who can't think straight.

[thesameguy]

There are also a good portion of homeless who have mental or severe addiction issues. I don't have hard data, but I'd gather that's majority of them.

All the stats I've ever seen support the idea that the homeless problem is not people who've "fallen on hard times," they are people with various physical and mental issues who have fallen through the gigantic cracks in our shitty healthcare "system."

[Crazed_Insanity]

All the stats I've ever seen support the idea that the homeless problem is not people who've "fallen on hard times," they are people with various physical and mental issues who have fallen through the gigantic cracks in our shitty healthcare "system."

Okay, glad you've actually seen real stats...

So if this is true, even if my local low cost housing project came thru, after spending millions building these permanent housing, it won't really end up serving majority of these homeless people. Even if no kickbacks were included in these deals, tax payer money intended to help solve the homeless problem will still be wasted.

[thesameguy]

Okay, glad you've actually seen real stats...

So if this is true, even if my local low cost housing project came thru, after spending millions building these permanent housing, it won't really end up serving majority of these homeless people. Even if no kickbacks were included in these deals, tax payer money intended to help solve the homeless problem will still be wasted.

That generally seems to be the case. What I have read is that motivating homeless to stay in group homes is difficult, but once it's done there are often problems with varying degrees of crime - theft, violence, harassment, etc. Same things you get in normal society, just concentrated and extra crazy. I have read that as often as not, group homes have openings while camps are set up just blocks away. I don't think you can blame an adult for not wanting to be corralled in a place that's perceived as dangerous, and honestly I don't think you can entirely expect an adult to choose a place with all sorts of rules over essentially complete freedom. Even food and climate control are often not powerful enough arguments. Throw in some drugs or some mental issues on top and it's a damned tough sale. Sacramento's biggest tent cities are within a mile or two of Sacramento's biggest homeless outreach. People want a place to go for a meal, but don't want to stay in a place where they feel trapped or endangered.

I don't think that's a reason to not provide these programs, but by the same token I think we need to understand and accommodate alternative scenarios. At least in the short term - I still hold out hope that someday we'll have an actual healthcare system and help prevent these people from being relegated to the streets in the first place. It's a damned pipe dream, but I'll keep having it.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Anyway, bottomline is that I hope someday our society can be less polarizing. Rather than hating your political opposition, try to hear them out. We have lots of difficult social problems that can only be solved 'together', not by a single party. We just need to fight to solve these hard problems, not fight each other. Political victories/losses are meaningless. It's more meaningful if we can actually solve fucking problems.

[Tom Servo]

Good call - need some way to handle poo. For real. Nothing is as disconcerting as a human poo on the ground.

I disagree. A human poo on the ceiling is significantly more disconcerting.

[thesameguy]

I've not witnessed it, but I feel like if I saw a human poo on the ceiling whatever unease that came with it would quickly be overcome with admiration for whomever accomplished it.

[Leon]

Swervo just took it up a level.

[neanderthal]

I don't mean to sound callous, but i'm far more concerned about the homeless people who are right on the fringes of society and living in their cars, or couch surfing or whatever else they are doing, than the outright bums/ decidedly indigent.

Many of the indigent have mental problems, which would be "solved/ alleviated/ relieved" with more funding for mental treatments and better care. This would necessarily mean really boosting the budgets of the Dept of Housing, Agriculture (food stamps,) social services (care workers, case workers etc) boosting jobs etc, but it's something the Republicans firmly will not do. It doesn't enrichen their benefactors, so they don't give a fuck.

I feel real pain, real anguish, for people who are trying, working, staying on the correct side of the law, but have to resort to living situations that are inhumane. Immigrant workers, sleeping 10 to a room (normal sized room) or sleeping in cars, or permanently "camping," but holding down a job and just not making enough to get properly settled. The sad thing is quite a few of those people end up eating a lot of fast food or making other choices which have long term effects.

I'm going to stop my not quite rant now. Don't bother responding Billi, I will NOT see your response unless someone quotes it.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Yes, for the love of Neanderthal, please try not to quote me! Thanks.

[FaultyMario]

Mo':


You thought I'd really do it?

[MR2 Fan]

wow.....:twitch:

From Today:

@realDonaldTrump

With all of the recently reported electronic surveillance, intercepts, unmasking and illegal leaking of information, I have no idea...
(continued)

...whether there are "tapes" or recordings of my conversations with James Comey, but I did not make, and do not have, any such recordings.


After he tweeted before:


James Comey better hope that there are no "tapes" of our conversations before he starts leaking to the press!

[thesameguy]

In his defense, he was probably familiar with the Nixon tapes and suggested there might be Trump tapes as a threat/posturing. In terms of shit Trump has said, this at least is logical. It's still disgusting that the president carries himself this way, but in the scope of his childish behavior this isn't so bad. My real issue is that there was this big week-long pregnant pause before the reveal of... no tapes. What an asshat. What I think I is really interesting is...

[thesameguy]

... wait for it ...

[thesameguy]

... nothing.

[MR2 Fan]

his tweets today sound more lawyer-guided than usual and just feel like they're contradicting himself on the stupid tweet before which partially led to the investigation he's under now.

[21Kid]

Well, his lawyer has a lawyer... so they might be advising him to be careful with what he says.

[speedpimp]

Yes, for the love of Neanderthal, please try not to quote me! Thanks.

Consider it done.

[Crazed_Insanity]

How considerate of you.

I think I'm the shit and you're the fan and I believe this is usually how shit end up on the ceiling.

[MR2 Fan]

question: is there any chance we can let the GOP pass the healthcare bill, but not start killing people until the next election? Then it can be reversed before it takes effect?

[novicius]

What makes you think Republicans aren't going to win the next Presidential election too?

[Rikadyn]

What makes you think Republicans aren't going to win the next Presidential election too?

What makes you think there is going to be another presidential election?

[novicius]

:up:

[Rikadyn]

Actually I seriously worry about that given how much the GOP projected onto Obama's Admin that he was just going to declare marshal law and suspend the election indefinitely

[MR2 Fan]

What makes you think Republicans aren't going to win the next Presidential election too?

wishful thinking? sigh

[tigeraid]

This is turning downright Orwellian. The Trump administration basically doesn't do press briefings anymore; all information from the LEADER OF THE FREE WORLD comes from either his own Twitter, or interviews on FOX News. More and more meetings are now closed door. Is there not a law that states they MUST do press briefings? It seems like their should be.


Robert Reich continues to drop truth bombs, but does it matter if Trump's base only gets their information directly from him?


Trump’s rally last night in Cedar Rapids, Iowa, was filled with lies. Now that he's doing more rallies and fewer press conferences, his lies must be countered with the truth.

1. Trump said he is pushing repeal of the federal estate tax so “farms can be passed on” to farmers’ children and grandchildren.

Baloney. The estate tax falls on fewer than one-half of 1 percent of farm estates. The nonpartisan Tax Policy Center estimates that only 50 farms and closely held businesses will pay any estate tax in 2017. All are multimillion-dollar farms. Only estates worth $5.45 million or more must file a return, and most of them don’t owe any tax. For those who do owe tax, the Tax Policy Center estimates that the average effective rate would be 20 percent — with the option of spreading payments over 14 years.



2. Trump said “all” insurance companies have “fled the state of Iowa” and that “they’re leaving all of the states.”

Rubbish. Health insurer Medica Health announced Monday it would stay in the Iowa market statewide. As of June 21, there were just 44 counties in 3 states (Ohio, Missouri and Washington) in any danger of losing health insurers. But insurer Centene now says it will expand coverage in these states. Note also that the major reason given by insurance companies for leaving the Affordable Care Act is uncertainty from the Trump administration about whether it will continue to subsidize low-income enrollees.


3. Trump claimed he has reversed the trend of coal mining job losses because of his rollback of coal regulations, and pointed to the opening of a new coal mine in Pennsylvania as evidence that his policies have led to a resurgence in coal mining.

Utter nonsense. According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, nearly 40,000 coal mining jobs have been lost over the last 5 years. Since January, a minuscule 1,000 new coal mining jobs have been added, largely due to the opening of the Corsa Coal Company’s Acosta Deep Mine near Pittsburgh on June 8. But that had nothing to do Trump. The development of the Acosta mine began 2 months before his election victory. Also, the Acosta mine produces a type of coal used to make steel, a niche market in the coal industry, and the opening was due to problems mining such coal overseas. The vast majority of coal produced in the U.S. is thermal coal, used to generate electricity, whose consumption has declined by nearly 18 percent between 2012 and 2016 due to the surge in cheaper natural gas production driven by the shale revolution and to competition from renewable energy.


4. Trump touted his decision to withdraw from the Paris Agreement, which he said would have been an economic “catastrophe” for the U.S.

He's lying. The Paris agreement was on the way to stimulating renewable energy in the U.S. Now, China is about to take the lead on renewables. And failure to control carbon in the planet's atmosphere will be an economic, political, and social catastrophe. The agreement, which took effect last year, was signed by 195 countries and aims to keep warming “well below 2°C above pre-industrial levels” and to pursue “efforts to limit the temperature increase to 1.5°C.” Trump's removal of the U.S. from that agreement is shameful and destructive.


5. Trump said he proposed a new law to bar new immigrants from receiving welfare for five years.

More rubbish. The Personal Responsibility and Work Opportunity Reconciliation Act, signed into law in 1996 by then-president Bill Clinton, already does that. It states that immigrants are “not eligible for any Federal means-tested public benefit for a period of 5 years beginning on the date of the alien’s entry into the United States.” That would include such benefits as food stamps, Medicaid and Social Security.

By this point, anyone who believes what comes out of Trump's mouth is either a knave or a fool.

[MR2 Fan]

The worst part is that Trump himself isn't intelligent enough to get away with this shit. He's being propped up by the other cronies and people with similar ties to him and with a small, but idiotic fanbase.

[Tom Servo]

http://i.imgur.com/k3MWUdi.jpg

[thesameguy]

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/beyond-opposing-trump-democrats-keep-searching-for-a-message/ar-BBD7aVH?ocid=spartanntp

I still can't believe this even still a question... after Hillary's defeat and all the "she stood for nothing" explanations, these fuckers still don't realize that their core message is essentially non-existent. I can't escape the feeling that courage is pretty lacking in the party in general - aside from a few folks like Bernie, you don't see any impassioned pleas like Trump has for coal, the economy, white privilege, God, and ignorance. If the Democrats really stand for things like equality and safety and stuff, they need the whole party speaking to those things all the time. Loudly. It seems like the best response they can muster to, say, gay rights is "Well, obviously, and if you don't agree you're stupid." It's an exaggeration, but not far off. They need to get their shit together and build some hype and build some hope or the losses are just going to keep piling up. Maybe instead of pushing so hard at the Federal level they should focus more intensely on funding local politics an build a solid infrastructure. And, seriously, they need to stop believing that everyone simply accepts equal rights are important and start explaining it. I think maybe the "basket of deplorables" concept runs deeper in the party than they know or want to admit.

[MR2 Fan]

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/beyond-opposing-trump-democrats-keep-searching-for-a-message/ar-BBD7aVH?ocid=spartanntp

I still can't believe this even still a question... after Hillary's defeat and all the "she stood for nothing" explanations, these fuckers still don't realize that their core message is essentially non-existent. I can't escape the feeling that courage is pretty lacking in the party in general - aside from a few folks like Bernie, you don't see any impassioned pleas like Trump has for coal, the economy, white privilege, God, and ignorance. If the Democrats really stand for things like equality and safety and stuff, they need the whole party speaking to those things all the time. Loudly. It seems like the best response they can muster to, say, gay rights is "Well, obviously, and if you don't agree you're stupid." It's an exaggeration, but not far off. They need to get their shit together and build some hype and build some hope or the losses are just going to keep piling up. Maybe instead of pushing so hard at the Federal level they should focus more intensely on funding local politics an build a solid infrastructure. And, seriously, they need to stop believing that everyone simply accepts equal rights are important and start explaining it. I think maybe the "basket of deplorables" concept runs deeper in the party than they know or want to admit.

agreed. It needs to be strong, clear message and go throughout ALL of their elections, including funding and promotion for those local elections, not just rely on the presidency because we know what happens when POTUS is a Dem but can't get anything done because congress is mostly GOP

[Crazed_Insanity]

Bernie Sanders is a democrat but Democratic Party doesn't see him as one of its own because he's a threat to the establishment.

DNC also doesn't seem to want to change. Their core msg is that they are the lesser of 2 evils who stands for nothing in particular just like Seinfeld. That's how former boring CA governor Gray Davis climbed up the political ladder. He could win every race because he just seems less evil than the other guy... Until one day the Governator made a total recall election and yanked him off... But of course CAs trouble was too big to be solved even by Arnold and he ended up unpopular as well. Trump should take notes...

I seriously think our current situation is too corrupt to fix by elections alone. There are too few Bernies in office and their voices are still being suppressed...

My conspiracy theory is that DNC just want somebody young, charismatic and more controllable... Not some stubborn crazy old man with a mind of his own. Of course this strategy could backfire sometimes... JFK ended up wanting to get rid of the CIA and federal reserve... So drastic measures were taken to mitigate such threat...

[MR2 Fan]

Bernie Sanders is NOT a Democrat, he just caucuses with the Democrats. He's technically an Independent.

[thesameguy]

It seems that the Democrats do mostly stand for "less evil." We want to protect the environment a little, we want civil rights a little, we want healthcare a little. It seems like a lot of don't rock the boat and yelling at the people who want to turn the boat around. If you want people to enthusiastically support your cause, you need to aim higher than "Ok, everyone hold your breath." You need to push people, egg them on, set a fantastic destination. That doesn't mean don't compromise, and it doesn't mean never hold your breath, but let people know the goal is awesome and we are going to keep pushing til we get there.

I was literally just talking to someone up here in the mountains about coal vs. renewable energy, and was thinking that Trumpnis willing to make all sorts of sacrifices to save a few hundred jobs that nobody actually wants in an industry that is actually dying. Why aren't the tree hugging Democrats offering Federal programs to train coal minors [sic] in green energy technologies or offering subsidies to organizations that will train or relocate them? I get we have subsidies for *industries* but what about dealing with the people directly? You want votes? Give PEOPLE opportunities, don't assume that money allocated to industry is going to appeal to voters. It won't. Democrats need to put together plans for the environment, healthcare and social/civil rights and couch them in such a way that the benefits for people are real and obvious. It seems to me that Democrats have almost bought into trickle down economics - they are playing this jacked up game of Big Business PLUS Big Government. How about playing a game of People First and we will see if we can work in some profit and some gubment jobs at the same time?

[thesameguy]

Trump won the election because he stirred up a lot of fear and then told everyone he was looking out for them. I think the message is that there is a lot to be afraid of, we are going to address that with compassion, and together we are going to create a world with common goals and common bonds. We will never run out of people to fight if fighting is how we deal with people. It is never ever going to be a straight white world, get over it. If we want to be safe, the answer is get rid of the reasons to fight. End poverty, end resource conflicts, and accept that you may disagree with people from time to time but you do your thing and thing will do theirs and that's ok. You know, just be excellent to each other.

[FaultyMario]

Most specialists agree that fundamentalism is on the rise, worldwide.

Democrat Party people are guilty of not paying attention. There are some fundamental values they can use to invigorate their discourse, not all fundamentalism is wacko, but they're so used to being middle of center that they don't know where to look for inspiration.

[thesameguy]

Most specialists agree that fundamentalism is on the rise, worldwide.

Democrat Party people are guilty of not paying attention. There are some fundamental values they can use to invigorate their discourse, not all fundamentalism is wacko, but they're so used to being middle of center that they don't know where to look for inspiration.

So true. And I think it's imperative that people who are not the GOP direct that fundamentalism. We need inspiration for and from positive places to prevent us from moving in antiproductive, fearful places. Being afraid of things never moves you forwards, ever. I think it is embarrassing that the Democrats have not acknowledged this rise and put into place any way to address or use it. Maybe the GOP hasn't either, maybe they are just in the right place at the right time... but when you see Brexit and you see Trump, I don't understand how you can't see the writing on the wall. People are afraid and maybe rightfully so, they are obviously going to retreat to safe places - we need leadership who can address those fears and turn those instincts into something productive, not something reductive

[Crazed_Insanity]

Indeed. The only thing we have to fear is fear itself!

Unfortunately, currently, we don't really have an external evil army or empire to fight against even if we have no fear...

[mk]

I think it is embarrassing that the Democrats have not acknowledged this rise and put into place any way to address or use it. Maybe the GOP hasn't either, maybe they are just in the right place at the right time...
I'm not sure they are for the people to begin with.

Superdelegates have secured life, they only need to keep their positions.
If they are first for the society this is just a ripple of some sort and for few years only.
I think GOP has got it right, grassroots is from where it starts and gerrymandering is the method.

IMO, the general system is and has been faulty for guite some time.
Since we now have technical possibilities we should drop elected delegates.

Elections should go hand in hand with enconomical trends but that's not possible.
So, keep votings but change delegates to civil servants who are oblicated to follow voters wish.
(said votings are obviously on-line and many)

[Tom Servo]

Why aren't the tree hugging Democrats offering Federal programs to train coal minors [sic] in green energy technologies or offering subsidies to organizations that will train or relocate them? I get we have subsidies for *industries* but what about dealing with the people directly? You want votes? Give PEOPLE opportunities, don't assume that money allocated to industry is going to appeal to voters. It won't.

I remember Hillary doing exactly that during one of the debates, talking about having federal programs to train people in industries like coal mining for jobs in solar and wind. Didn't work.

[thesameguy]

Yes, agreed. It sure seems like the vast majority of the Democrat leadership are politicians as a career path rather than politicians for positive leadership. Honestly, that may have always been true. With quick thought it sure seems like the Democrats can't claim a lot of great presidents, or maybe great presidential accomplishments. Either way, they have got to stop being the party of less evil and be that party of desirable change. Otherwise, the GOP is going to continue the fearmongering and keep winning the lowest common denominator.

The system is broken, and it should be fixed, but until it is these guys need to play the game they helped create and stop crying about the rules and making fun of the other team. You don't win games by being sissies.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I remember Hillary doing exactly that during one of the debates, talking about having federal programs to train people in industries like coal mining for jobs in solar and wind. Didn't work.

It could work had Obama done something rather than just Hillary talking about it. For those who are already not happy with Obama, why should they trust Hillary will do better?

[Crazed_Insanity]

The system is broken, and it should be fixed, but until it is these guys need to play the game they helped create and stop crying about the rules and making fun of the other team. You don't win games by being sissies.
It's just easier to blame others, that's just part of human nature...

Our political system just won't fix itself. Just as they will never come up with a version of healthcare that they themselves will gladly accept for themselves and for their own families.

One can only hope this serious blow to the DNC will wake them up. But I'm not holding my breath.

America needs a new party perhaps..., and we the people need to be more involved than just casting votes...

Our government/politicians need to learn to fear and represent the people, not just the few rich people.

[Tom Servo]

It could work had Obama done something rather than just Hillary talking about it. For those who are already not happy with Obama, why should they trust Hillary will do better?

He did.

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2014/07/23/obama-signs-workforce-training-bill-announces-new-executive-action-overhaul-federal

[Leon]

Douglas Adams quote is seeming more and more real by the day


“It comes from a very ancient democracy, you see..."
"You mean, it comes from a world of lizards?"
"No," said Ford, who by this time was a little more rational and coherent than he had been, having finally had the coffee forced down him, "nothing so simple. Nothing anything like so straightforward. On its world, the people are people. The leaders are lizards. The people hate the lizards and the lizards rule the people."
"Odd," said Arthur, "I thought you said it was a democracy."
"I did," said Ford. "It is."
"So," said Arthur, hoping he wasn't sounding ridiculously obtuse, "why don't people get rid of the lizards?"
"It honestly doesn't occur to them," said Ford. "They've all got the vote, so they all pretty much assume that the government they've voted in more or less approximates to the government they want."
"You mean they actually vote for the lizards?"
"Oh yes," said Ford with a shrug, "of course."
"But," said Arthur, going for the big one again, "why?"
"Because if they didn't vote for a lizard," said Ford, "the wrong lizard might get in. Got any gin?"
"What?"
"I said," said Ford, with an increasing air of urgency creeping into his voice, "have you got any gin?"
"I'll look. Tell me about the lizards."
Ford shrugged again.
"Some people say that the lizards are the best thing that ever happenned to them," he said. "They're completely wrong of course, completely and utterly wrong, but someone's got to say it."
"But that's terrible," said Arthur.
"Listen, bud," said Ford, "if I had one Altairian dollar for every time I heard one bit of the Universe look at another bit of the Universe and say 'That's terrible' I wouldn't be sitting here like a lemon looking for a gin.”

[FaultyMario]

He did.

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2014/07/23/obama-signs-workforce-training-bill-announces-new-executive-action-overhaul-federal

Are those districts/counties republican?

[Crazed_Insanity]

He did.

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2014/07/23/obama-signs-workforce-training-bill-announces-new-executive-action-overhaul-federal

Yeah, it was a rare popular and bipartisan effort, but in the end it wasn't that effective. So I guess I can't fault Obama for not doing something, but still, can the voters trust Hillary will be able to do better?

[Freude am Fahren]

Douglas Adams quote is seeming more and more real by the day

If only they all actually looked like Lizards...
http://progresoweekly.us/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/rick_scott.jpg

[thesameguy]

I remember Hillary doing exactly that during one of the debates, talking about having federal programs to train people in industries like coal mining for jobs in solar and wind. Didn't work.

Not a thing in that article said anything about coal, renewable energy, or relocation... It's about the Workforce Innovation Act, which is a broad program designed to ease people getting education in certain career fields through primarily community colleges. I do understand that one aspect of this could apply to coal minors getting work in renewables, but it's not specific enough, not complete enough, and nobody went around saying "Free education money" when Trump said "Coal minors are unemployed."

I think this was a good program, I'm glad it happened, but it's a far cry from the level of assistance I am talking about.

[thesameguy]

To complete that thought, although we like and expect the free market to pick up the slack when the government effectively shuts down an industry, I think the flaw in that plan is that the legacy assholes then cry out "Look, they are making you unemployed, we are going to ensure your industry is protected and continues!" So, I think, let's quietly go full socialism here... and say "We're shutting down your old industry, and we are going to ensure that you have three years or whatever that number is to get resituated. Stay at home, get an education, get another job, IDK, but you've got X time to work it out."

[Crazed_Insanity]

Anyway, conservatives might find free education money offensive because of 'socialism'. Just as poor whites might need Obamacare, but they still might reject it even if it's completely free... Because they just don't want to believe it's right...

So I don't think Obama or DNC can be blamed for lack of effort. However, it was clear that the imagery of hope has faded over the 8 years... And Hillary wasn't equipped to inject more hope during the campaign... And trump capitalized on people's fears.

The only glimmer of hope was lit by Sanders, but it was quickly extinguished. I would've held on to that hope had Warren been picked as vp, but nope. Hillary sent a strong signal for status quo and she's just plain better than Trump. Rationally she's correct, but fear is a much stronger emotion than they expected.

[MR2 Fan]

Well there's a lot of Corporate Democrats who are running the party. Bernie was more of a Progressive, and that's the part the Corporate Democrats want to keep down.

Progressives are where its at, but either that means taking over the party, like the tea party tried with the GOP, or starting their own party. Bull Moose people!!

[Tom Servo]

Not a thing in that article said anything about coal, renewable energy, or relocation... It's about the Workforce Innovation Act, which is a broad program designed to ease people getting education in certain career fields through primarily community colleges. I do understand that one aspect of this could apply to coal minors getting work in renewables, but it's not specific enough, not complete enough, and nobody went around saying "Free education money" when Trump said "Coal minors are unemployed."

I think this was a good program, I'm glad it happened, but it's a far cry from the level of assistance I am talking about.

Are you talking about the article that I posted? Because that was to point out that Obama had actually done something rather than talk about it.

This was on Clinton's campaign site and talked about doing what you're talking about: https://www.hillaryclinton.com/briefing/factsheets/2015/11/12/clinton-plan-to-revitalize-coal-communities/

[thesameguy]

Are you talking about the article that I posted? Because that was to point out that Obama had actually done something rather than talk about it.

He did a thing, which is not really the same thing.


This was on Clinton's campaign site and talked about doing what you're talking about: https://www.hillaryclinton.com/briefing/factsheets/2015/11/12/clinton-plan-to-revitalize-coal-communities/

Yep, pretty much right on target. Never heard a peep about this in the election, though. Not a word. Every time Trump said "Save coal" she should have responded with "Give coal workers money to not mine coal anymore."

[neanderthal]

A lot to unpack here.

Bernie is not a Democrat. He caucuses with them but won't identify as one. I was one of his early supporters ... but no, you don't get to shape the Democratic platform unless you are one. Otherwise who else would get to shape it?

I said that the Democrats need to come up with a simple ten point plan to highlight their message before the elections. Being "not as bad" is not saying or being anything of substance.

I don't believe the Hillary/ the Dems lost because of what was stated here. I think she lost because white America was not ready to have female president right after having a black President. I say that because if you look at the vast majority of President Obama's detractors; white. The ones who believed everything the Republicans said about him, Faux News said about him. Examples would include all the idiots, yes idiots, who believed that Obama was a Muslim, yet also believed that he went to church with a radical America hating pastor, which is incongruent to say the least but we won't unpack the logical fallacies at play here, that he was a Kenyan, a socialist, that the Keystone Pipeline would bring jobs (they've built it, has it?) [b]death panels[b], Obamacare was ruining the economy, making healthcare more expensive etc. The idiots, yes idiots, that believed he never went to Stanford, in Obamaphones, illegal immigrants are flooding into the country from Mexico, Obama is giving them benefits that Americans don't get, that Obamacare was created in secrecy, that Fast and Furious was an Obama program (it started in some forms, in Bush' presidency) that he lied about "keeping your old healthcare plan (insurers stopped offering them because they didn't meet the healthcare standard Obamacare required,) that the Iran deal was some sort of giveaway, that the American Recovery and Recovery Act was some other type of giveaway, etc etc etc. The number of hurtful lies told about him, even still being repeated about him today, was greater than any other president and far more acrimonious. And people believed them because, IMO, they didn't want a nigger in the White House. And they wanted to "punish the party that had dared to put one in there." we can go on and on and on about the lies that were spewed about him and readily taken as fact by large swathes of the population, many of which could be easily disproven with a quick google search.

Hillary touted reeducation and training in her campaign extensively. The media didn't cover that as much as they covered Trumps every little lie and malfeasance and action. She had a great campaign platform but Trump was the lede on the headlines most of the time.

As for coal mining jobs, there's something like 90000 people directly involved in coal mining. We can harp on and on about them but there's not that many people doing it.


I'm tired after a tedious work day so not going to bother with the rest now.

[Tom Servo]

Yep, pretty much right on target. Never heard a peep about this in the election, though. Not a word. Every time Trump said "Save coal" she should have responded with "Give coal workers money to not mine coal anymore."

I distinctly heard that specifically talked about during a debate, and I knew it without having actually looked it up on her site prior to that. You may not have heard it, but there were definitely peeps.

[tigeraid]

The last I read, coal mining was about 50,000 jobs nationwide (maybe that doesn't count support jobs, contractors, etc). But more importantly, and what these morons fail to grasp, is that the industry as a whole has MOVED ON. Either a) it's gone completely from the town or area in question, and in some cases replaced by renewable energy concerns.... or b) the fucking robber barons who run the coal companies, who are lying shitheel free market capitalists, have converted the vast majority of their work to automated machines anyway. The jobs LITERALLY AREN'T THERE to have anymore.

[Jason]

Marketing comes into play, really. Trump was fantastic at marketing, Clinton, not so much. It's much easier to sell a loud simply worded one liner, than it is to sell a nuanced and thought out plan. Sure, the latter is better in every way, but people won't pay attention to it.

[mk]

I hear that Commander in chief was a key.
Yet she's clearly a hawk.

In global environment you need "socialism."
It's of course far from real one but around there it's close enough.

Life is too short, literally.
If you go down ten years and back up another ten it's already a generation.
A poor kid is turning twenty and with what expectations.

Few decades ago things were more volatile.
Now China is a big stabilator, both ways.

Around here sub prime '08 never went away,
maybe until now but local politics is,
possibly with tooth and nail, pulling us back down.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Marketing comes into play, really. Trump was fantastic at marketing, Clinton, not so much. It's much easier to sell a loud simply worded one liner, than it is to sell a nuanced and thought out plan. Sure, the latter is better in every way, but people won't pay attention to it.
Yep. I do believe that's the key trump used to get into the WH.

[thesameguy]

Indeed... and that's the other part of it. A good plan is fine and all, but nobody knows about it what's the point? Everyone heard Trump chanting coal, nobody heard Clinton chanting "free money." Truly, if Clinton had been paying attention to race she would have shown a video of a giant robot truck driving around and posed the question "Is this the job you're trying to save?" Or spent 30 minutes at a mine and interviewed all 20 people that worked there and asked where the other 99,980 people worked. John Oliver did more in 30 minutes to debunk the "save the coal miners" concept that Clinton did in a year.

And that's the crux of the whole damn thing. Clinton is an elitist, and she simply assumed that everyone she cared about knew and accepted the facts as she presented them, rather than engaging on a mission of education. That dovetails right back into her failure to spend any time or money on the middle of the country. My disdain for her as a person and a candidate has nothing to do with her being female. I'd vote for a lizard if it said the right things in the right way. My disdain has everything to do with her being a holier than thou elitist. She ran her campaign like she runs her brain - she should get your vote because she's Hillary, obviously.

I'm repeating myself, whatever. I don't know a single person who was hesitant about Hillary for her gender. I know a lot of people who were hesitant about Hillary because she appears sketchy. In all the conversations I had during the election cycle with all sorts of people I only got three different responses:

1. I'll vote for Hillary, obvs.
2. I may not vote for Hillary, because I don't like her.
3. I'm voting for Trump

Nobody cited sex.

Hillary never would have won the Fox News crowd. That was never on the table. There is nothing she could ever do to win over people who thought Obama was a Kenyan Muslim Socialist Antiamerican. That's not even up for discussion. In the same way Trump was never going to get a single vote from a black lesbian hippie. It's impossible. Hillary lost because she couldn't win the people that had no specific opinion about Obama. Trump won because he said things like "America first" and "save jobs" and "drain the swamp." It was lies, duh, but good lies. People liked hearing it. He got those undecideds. Look at all the interviews with people who say "I voted for Trump, I didn't believe he'd actually try and ban Muslims" or "I voted for Trump, but now I see it was a bunch of lies." It's a lot of people. It's all people Hillary failed to convince. Nobody who wakes up to Fox & Family every morning has regrets right now. She did not lose the "angry at Obama" crowd. Hillary never had, could never have, those people. They didn't vote for Obama, either.

It is literally the same story as every modern Democratic loss. You cannot win the -phobes, give that up. Speak thoroughly to that middle 20-30% of the country that is not highly opinionated one way or another. Clinton spent all her time talking to people who already supported her, zero time speaking to people who were undecided and didn't even try to speak to the Fox News crowd - and that probably happened because she didn't know what to say to those people, just like the entire party doesn't right this second. They need to fix their platform, fix their message, and start courting the middle ground intensely. John Oliver is great, the Washington Post is great, but Fox News is 24x7, in a lot of peoples' ears. If you want to beat that, you need to start treating people like valuable allies and address all of them equally, constantly. If Clinton cared about her party or her platform she'd be out visiting every city in every state right now and reading that plan Swervo linked to each of us. Instead she's hitting the talk show circuit talking about how SHE was robbed. Not how the American's people were robbed, how SHE was robbed.

Right now, the Democrats are the rebels and they are fighting against a pretty powerful system. There is no tide-turning battle that's going to change their fortune. They need some guerilla tactics, they need to accept this is going to be protracted fight and stop focusing on single moments. Small fights, all the time, in arenas that they control. "Let's spend lots of money in Georgia and win us a tide-turning seat!" Fuck that noise. Start teaching the people, help them see it your way, and then start going for the big battles. Trump's twitter habit is masterful. If the news wasn't covering Hillary to her satisfaction, why didn't she look elsewhere for coverage? How come we don't have some crazy twitter account? I'm so irritated that this entire party thinks they should be in charge simply because. They need to explain is to us.

[Crazed_Insanity]

No, explaining isn't enough. They need to 'move' us, inspire us.

Human brains do not make decisions rationally, but emotionally. It's much easier to move people with fear, but Republicans already trademarked that.

Learn from Sanders, DNC, if you wish to move people in a positive direction!

Unfortunately, I'm pretty sure DNC is too corrupted to want to make such a change.

It'll be up to folks like Sanders to eventually make the change...

[Kchrpm]

If you want to make the world a better place, just look at yourself and make that change.

[thesameguy]

I heard we had to change the way we eat, change the way we live, and change the way we treat each other, and that it's on us to do what we gotta do to survive.

[thesameguy]

STARTING WITH A POLITICALLY CORRECT WATERED DOWN TRAVEL BAN!

[Crazed_Insanity]

If you want to make the world a better place, just look at yourself and make that change.

QFMFT!!!

It's useless to just ask others to change or blame others..., can't really count on Sanders either. Michael is a wise pop star..., but too bad he took his own advise too much into the extreme. Changing himself into a white dude while everyone loved him as a pretty awesome black dude... there's really no need to be a dude disguised as another dude when it comes to making the world a better place...

[21Kid]

Ch-ch-ch-ch-changes
(Turn and face the strange)
Ch-ch-changes
Don't want to be a richer man
Ch-ch-ch-ch-changes
(Turn and face the strange)
Ch-ch-changes
Just gonna have to be a different man
Time may change me
But I can't trace time

[Leon]

I went to a talk by Dr Jane Goodall last night.

She got in some awesome shots about Trump :)

[21Kid]

:lol:

Obamas under fire from the left for never ending, sizzling ultra-luxury vacations
The Democratic base is growing increasingly frustrated with former President Barack Obama's actions after leaving office, including a seemingly endless tour of ...
Really? :erm: I'm not sure that's accurate. :lol:

[FaultyMario]

I thought some on the left had already fired up the sacrificial pyres to ask the gods for his return.

[Freude am Fahren]

:lol:

And my boss today, "How can you watch that [CNN] after they fire their reporters for lying?"

My response: "Because they actually fired them, instead of instructing them to do so like Fox News"

[Tom Servo]

Yeah, pretty sure that's not accurate. Dude's retired, why would we be all mad if he's on vacation? I'm significantly more annoyed that the guy who's actually in office right now spends a hell of a lot of time golfing.

[Random]

He's going on expensive vacations, like an elitist!!!!1one :blahblah:

[Crazed_Insanity]

The left is really hard to please. 1st they laugh at the VP for eating at AppleBees for being too cheap, and now upset with former president for taking posh vacations? So WTF do they want them to do?

Slow news day? ;)

Anyway, eagerly anticipating the GOP coming up with a really really great healthcare that will make Americans healthy and fit again!

BTW, this may or may not be politically related, but what do you guys think about the USS Fitzgerald incident? It just made no sense that a navy ship like that can get rammed by such a huge cargo ship. Conspiracy theorists are now saying maybe it's not just our election that got hacked, our entire navy may be at risk of being hacked/disabled... and US Navy is also trying to cover up this story so that the world doesn't know our entire navy fleet can now be rendered pretty useless...

[thesameguy]

If a cruise ship captain can miss an island, I am sure a Navy ship can miss a cargo ship. I suspect a comedy of errors - the fact that it happened at night, with most of the crew asleep, makes me think it was a couple people not doing what they should do... and that may be that they were in a place they shouldn't have been, operating in a way they shouldn't have been... but not necessarily.

[Tom Servo]

All I know is that it's a big enough problem that someone wrote a book about it (https://smile.amazon.com/Avoid-Huge-Ships-John-Trimmer/dp/0870334336/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1498607140&sr=8-2&keywords=how+to+avoid+huge+ships).

(check out the reviews)

[Crazed_Insanity]

If a cruise ship captain can miss an island, I am sure a Navy ship can miss a cargo ship. I suspect a comedy of errors - the fact that it happened at night, with most of the crew asleep, makes me think it was a couple people not doing what they should do... and that may be that they were in a place they shouldn't have been, operating in a way they shouldn't have been... but not necessarily.

Regardless of whether the US navy was hacked or comically fallen asleep on the job, I see it as equally if not more worrisome than our hacked election and our insomniac nutty president.

USA has so much power rest in the hands of so few irresponsible idiots... Sigh...

[Leon]

I'd be more worried about the breadth and depth of your idiots, such that there are enough idiots to vote for the malevolent little hitler currently in the wheelhouse, and an unwillingness to remove somebody clearly inept.

[thesameguy]

Best not to worry, or you won't get much sleep.

[thesameguy]

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/epa-chief-met-with-dow-ceo-before-deciding-on-pesticide-ban/ar-BBDmoEt?li=BBmkt5R&ocid=spartanntp

Yep.

/world

[Crazed_Insanity]

I'd be more worried about the breadth and depth of your idiots, such that there are enough idiots to vote for the malevolent little hitler currently in the wheelhouse, and an unwillingness to remove somebody clearly inept.
Germans voted for Hitler.
Brits voted for Brexit.
We voted for trump.

No point worrying about people really. They only wish to protect themselves. In the end, they'll end up screwing themselves over...

[Drachen596]

The left is really hard to please. 1st they laugh at the VP for eating at AppleBees for being too cheap, and now upset with former president for taking posh vacations? So WTF do they want them to do?

Slow news day? ;)

Anyway, eagerly anticipating the GOP coming up with a really really great healthcare that will make Americans healthy and fit again!

BTW, this may or may not be politically related, but what do you guys think about the USS Fitzgerald incident? It just made no sense that a navy ship like that can get rammed by such a huge cargo ship. Conspiracy theorists are now saying maybe it's not just our election that got hacked, our entire navy may be at risk of being hacked/disabled... and US Navy is also trying to cover up this story so that the world doesn't know our entire navy fleet can now be rendered pretty useless...

They're also pissed off that Pence wont have dinner alone with a woman who isn't his wife. In this day and age as a public figure I can't say I blame him.


How would that Navy hack have worked?... it got hit in the side by a freighter that had made a u turn in a busy area at night. if either ship had been hacked i'd say it was the freighter.

[Crazed_Insanity]

both could be jacked while in autopilot while the crew is sleeping. Freighters route just looks odd. Navy ship just looks dead in the water or was sleeping very soundly during impact.

Anyway if it's truly an accident, our navy is pretty incompetent. Way more so than Trump. If it's not an accident, then our national security is way more at risk than our hacked election. Either way, it's bad.

I consider this an accident just as commercial jets accidentally flew into WTC.

Do we have any naval veterans here to weigh in?

[21Kid]

I'd be more worried about the breadth and depth of your idiots, such that there are enough idiots to vote for the malevolent little hitler currently in the wheelhouse, and an unwillingness to remove somebody clearly inept.

http://www.gstatic.com/tv/thumb/movieposters/159395/p159395_p_v8_ai.jpg

[MR2 Fan]

is it just me or does Sarah Huckabee Sanders look like an alien who's trying to wear a human suit?

[Crazed_Insanity]

You just might be seeing things thru your politically colored lenses.

Can you tell me one well known republican that looks good to you?

I have a super liberal friend who thought Ivanka Trump looks freaking ugly. I can understand that she's not a knockout 10, but calling Ivanka ugly is something based on his very own rational reasoning. ;)

[MR2 Fan]

You just might be seeing things thru your politically colored lenses.

Can you tell me one well known republican that looks good to you?

I have a super liberal friend who thought Ivanka Trump looks freaking ugly. I can understand that she's not a knockout 10, but calling Ivanka ugly is something based on his very own rational reasoning. ;)

Anyway, is it just me or does Sarah Huckabee Sanders look like an alien who's trying to wear a human suit?

[Freude am Fahren]

:lol:

After Gov. Scott, anyone else looks pretty normal.

[drew]

Indeed.

Snake man.

[Drachen596]

So they're still threatening a Tariff on any sub 500cc European brand motorcycle/scooter because Europe doesn't want our beef.

dumbest thing ever.

[Tom Servo]

So, I don't follow dear leader directly on Twitter, but instead have it filtered through something that makes them look like official press statements. It makes this tirade from this morning all the more silly.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DDfXzKEVYAAluwV.jpg

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DDfY8VFVoAAQoCF.jpg

Jake Tapper responded by wondering how Melania's anti-cyber-bullying campaign is going.

[thesameguy]

TBH, I just wish he would go ahead and destroy the planet so this can be over. This is absolutely one of those times where the journey is far, far worse than the destination.

[Kchrpm]

People from all over Congress are calling him out for this being terrible, especially after they just made a call out to everyone to be more civil towards each other after the shooting of Republicans earlier this month.

And yet Trump will learn nothing from it, because this is what got him elected, his biggest and most recent win.

[The359]

And nothing will happen to him either, because at this point it's fair to say he's untouchable.

[mk]

What's estimated coverage of Trump-TV if he's thrown out now?

[thesameguy]

I think a lot of less-good people use audiences like a mirror, and when they do shitty things and the audience applauds they learn that audiences like shitty things and they should keep doing them. I initially thought that group of less good people included Trump. I really don't think that's the case anymore.

Trump is Trump, and he's a shitty person. He does shitty things for that reason and that reason only. He's not running any ratings calculations, he just is who he is and does what he does without regard or consideration for anyone or anything. He is id with no ego. In other times, society would reject him as an uncivilized monster, but we've come to appreciate and to some degree idolize these one-dimensional caricatures of human beings. That's our fascination with "celebrity," and Trump is nothing if not a celebrity.

[neanderthal]

I cant with the Orangutang in Chief.

This latest tweet. Republicans own this. They selected and then elected him. And note how few have said anything condemning him about this latest tweet. Fuck em all. Idiots.

[Crazed_Insanity]

President is definitely setting a bad precedent for future presidents...

As TSG said, Trump is Trump. Just don't mess with him if you don't want him to tweet BS about you. If you are reporting truthfully and acting honorably, don't be afraid of the president's tweeting bullying...

BTW, 2 GOP senators condemned POTUS's action: "Trump's tweets drew criticism on Twitter, including from Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-S.C.) and Sen. Ben Sasse (R-Neb.)."
http://www.latimes.com/politics/la-pol-updates-everything-president-trump-s-new-media-targets-msnbc-s-1498744716-htmlstory.html

IMHO, just let Trump be Trump. He who lives by the tweet will die by the tweet.

[Jason]

I'm always amused when Republicans wag their finger at something Trump says... then they turn around and fall in line the next second. Stop acting outraged already, jesus.

[neanderthal]

I'm always amused when Republicans wag their finger at something Trump says... then they turn around and fall in line the next second. Stop acting outraged already, jesus.

This, this, this, this, this, exactly fucking THIS!

[Crazed_Insanity]

That's the power of political polarization! No matter how lame or disgusting my candidate is, at least he is part of MY party. No matter how good the candidate of the OTHER party is, I'm just not going to support him... and should he make the slightest mistake, I'm ready to hang him!

From another perspective, just as no matter how Bill Clinton has sex in the oval office, it's much better to have him fondling the cigar in there than allow some stupid ass republican guy occupying that office.

Same difference.

For me, I'm ready to hang both parties.

[Tom Servo]

If you are reporting truthfully and acting honorably, don't be afraid of the president's tweeting bullying...

Untrue. Look at the Washington Post. They reported about his fake Time Magazine covers in his golf resorts. That was truthful reporting. He goes after Amazon because Jeff Bezos owns the Washington Post. He already threatened Amazon during the campaign, and now appears to be indicating that he'll support adding new taxes for Amazon. That's a direct threat to a company saying that unless the owner of that company exerts pressure on the newspaper he owns to not report negative things about the President, he will cause financial hardship or exact retaliatory regulations on that company.

[21Kid]

We should make a law against that...

[thesameguy]

:lol:

[Crazed_Insanity]

My point was that although a bully might kick my ass and hurt me bad, I'm still not gonna be afraid to stand up to him. Not debating about whether something that's true or false...

While it's true that a bully can hurt you, it's more true that bullying can never be that long lasting. Sooner or later he is going to get his ass kicked.

[Tom Servo]

Then there was this one this morning, which seemed incomprehensible...

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DDkhY3LUQAAz9m_.jpg

Until I saw that MSNBC are saying that the National Enquirer has been harassing Mika and her family, and that White House aides have been calling Joe Scarborough and telling him that they'll get the Enquirer to back off if he just apologizes to Trump.

I see the mob tactics are working out nicely. "Nice TV show you got there, shame if something were to happen to it."

[21Kid]

How fucking embarrassing. :smh:

[thesameguy]

Nobody is embarrassed here. Trust.

[Tom Servo]

Scarborough says he has call records and texts from Trump staffers, and also kept the network execs aware of the situation, so it sounds like he's got significant evidence to back up this claim.

http://money.cnn.com/2017/06/30/media/national-enquirer-donald-trump-joe-scarborough/index.html

[thesameguy]

You better hope there is no evidence. If there is, and we lose Trump then we get Pence and the government starts rolling again. Rolling backwards. Downhill. At an alarming rate.

[Jason]

Trump still probably has an approval rating with like 80% of Republicans, and god knows Democrats don't vote, so yeah... yet again, it doesn't really matter.

Edit: Yup. Trump has a 85% approval rating among Republicans. For comparison, Obama at about this time, had 88% among Democrats. 6% and 25% respectively among opposing party. So effectively, even though his overall approval rating is in the tank, he's doing just fine.

[21Kid]

Thanks Jason. :(

[Crazed_Insanity]

You better hope there is no evidence. If there is, and we lose Trump then we get Pence and the government starts rolling again. Rolling backwards. Downhill. At an alarming rate.

I think it's difficult to say which is worse... Trump or Pence or W.

With the likes of Pence or W, at least we can get back to politics as usual.

With Trump, things are amazingly unpredictable. Too bad there's only very little good with mostly bad and ugly.

Look, we all know what kind of man Trump can be. In a way, I also do wish the media could just focus on investigating the real stories, such as the russian Comey thing, that can put Trump away... rather than talk about stories of an egomaniac who put a fake Time magazine cover on his property. Who the fuck cares? Leaking a story about this guy who grabs pussies prior to winning the white house is one thing..., try to leak similar personal dirty stories again, you can rest assure this guy will unleash his presidential powers on your ass. Not worth wasting time digging up and smearing each other with dirt with this guy anymore. It's not just the office of the POTUS being disgraced, but the entire nation. As we all can see, this POTUS is not ashamed to get even more down and dirty with you.

Trump enjoys his ratings. Media also enjoys their ratings. Anyway, chances are, this fucking ugly clown show is not going to stop for 4 years..., hopefully not 8 years. Sigh... I can almost see it now... that the candidate DNC nominates probably won't even be able to win over the 15% of the republicans who dislike Trump.

[drew]

You better hope there is no evidence. If there is, and we lose Trump then we get Pence and the government starts rolling again. Rolling backwards. Downhill. At an alarming rate.


I still stand by my original assessment a few months ago. The GOP wanted Pence in there the whole time.

That said, while he'd keep the shit show going, and the fleecing of everyone out of the top 1%, I doubt we'd have the potential international ridiculousness we have now.

To summarize:
Trump = Shit for us, and everywhere abroad, because he has no sense of diplomacy.
Pence = Shit for us, because he has no soul, but international diplomacy he would be equipped for.

So, we're fucked domestically, in either case. But at least Pence wouldn't (potentially) fuck over every trade agreement we have with everyone, or seemingly make enemies of our longest-standing allies, and friends with our longest-standing adversaries.


Don't get me wrong, they can both get fucked. But Pence is the lesser of the two evils/ignoramus in regard to anything outside of our borders.

[MR2 Fan]

In short, we have experience with Christian Conservatives in politics....we don't have much experience with narcissistic lunatics who can do something unexpectedly crazy on a daily basis.

[drew]

Exactly

[FaultyMario]

Index under: FNN

Was his plan to stay on the news during the long weekend?

He is not stupid nor is he asylum-crazy, but rather a player well tuned to the ignorance culture in which we're living.

I find it ironic that this ignoramus has so much feel and plays very well on the subject of the wissensgesellschaft, that has obviously puzzled the brightest minds in Europe.

[FaultyMario]

In short, we have experience with Christian Conservatives in politics....we don't have much experience with narcissistic lunatics who can do something unexpectedly crazy on a daily basis.

I think that after six months, it's no longer unexpected. He's doing the shell game and everyone's happy to play along.

[TheBenior]

So, we're fucked domestically, in either case. But at least Pence wouldn't (potentially) fuck over every trade agreement we have with everyone, or seemingly make enemies of our longest-standing allies, and friends with our longest-standing adversaries.

That's what I think about a potential President Race Bannon.

[mk]

Trump has a 85% approval rating among Republicans. For comparison, Obama at about this time, had 88% among Democrats. 6% and 25% respectively among opposing party. So effectively, even though his overall approval rating is in the tank, he's doing just fine.

Hasn't it regularly been so that republicans have been very homogenous in their voting habits and democrats something else?

[21Kid]

You guys give Trump/GOP waaay too much credit to think they planned all of this.

[FaultyMario]

His planning thought process is much shorter than normal and does not take into account a lot of variables, but that doesn't mean it's not planning.








Ok, He just wings it.

[21Kid]

And the GOP eats it up, so he keeps doing it.

Rince, Repeat.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I think his standard 'plan of attack' is probably pretty effective at eliminating his enemies..., it has gotten him this far. You can't say he is where he is today all based on pure luck. The guy is not Forrest Gump. He's probably more crooked than Nixon.

[FaultyMario]

He's like the overenthusiastic and slow kid in a class where the teacher's encouraging him to keep getting wronger.

There's no facial expression that can show the other students' whatthefuckness everytime Mr. McDonnell says: "that's terrific, Donnie!".

[21Kid]

Reading from his speech, Trump had a poignant comment about “discovery” and a journey that “will not only make us stronger and more prosperous but will unite us behind grand ambitions and bring us all closer together.” But the moment was short-lived as Trump ad libbed, “Wouldn’t that be nice? Can you believe that space is going to do that?”
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DDr2w2BV0AA46S6.jpg

Trump’s remarks began with the president’s usual boasting: “We’re going to lead again like we never led before.” But he then appeared to claim all of space for the U.S., calling it the “next great American frontier.
http://static4.businessinsider.com/image/595a7c82a3630f1b008b7338-506-253/people-on-twitter-are-loving-how-baffled-buzz-aldrin-appeared-by-trumps-space-talk.jpg

Our travels beyond the Earth propel scientific discoveries that improve our lives in countless ways here,” Trump said. "At some point in the future, we’re going to look back and say how did we do it without space?
https://resources.stuff.co.nz/content/dam/images/1/k/6/b/3/z/image.related.StuffLandscapeSixteenByNine.620x349. 1k6auu.png/1499074003927.jpg

"Know what this is? Space!" Trump said. "That's all it has to say is 'space.' There's a lot of room out there, right?" he continued, looking at Aldrin.
"To infinity and beyond!" Aldrin riffed in reply, quoting the "Toy Story" character Buzz Lightyear. The assembled group broke out in laughter.
But Trump continued.
"This was infinity," he said. "Could be infinity, we really don't know yet. But it could be. There's gotta be something, but it could be infinity, right?"

[FaultyMario]

https://media.giphy.com/media/TbRXNJJJbgIkE/giphy.gif

[Leon]

I'm still going with my theory that his toupee is a small insane animal, and is actually running his "brain", like the Ratatouille movie.

[MR2 Fan]

I have a feeling something big is about to go down regarding Trump-Russia....BIG, because Trump treasons the BIGGEST

[G'day Mate]

I think he's warming up to poke North Korea - that should create a big enough distraction to stave off any more Russia stuff.

[Drachen596]

North Korea that just launched a missile that is actually capable of the range to hit a US city?

Also whats this bullshit of CNN tracking down the reddit user who made the gif of their logo getting beat up by trump at WWE and making him apologize or they'll release his actual name. btw they have 'reserved the right' to release his name in the future if they so choose.

[Tom Servo]

NPR tweeted out the Declaration of Independence for the 4th of July. One of many reactions by people who didn't understand what they were reading.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DD7611AXUAA56Zz.jpg:large

[G'day Mate]

North Korea that just launched a missile that is actually capable of the range to hit a US city?

I'm only saying that he's handling it very Trumpishly.

[Drachen596]

Has he even said anything about it yet?


BTW China seems to be slowing cutting NK off. they were supposedly shutting down fuel transports to NK.