Politics

[overpowered]

GOP Senator: Some Of Fox News “Totally Not Fair And Totally Not Balanced” (http://www.buzzfeed.com/andrewkaczynski/gop-senator-some-of-fox-news-totally-not-fair-and-totally-no#xybhbu)

[Crazed_Insanity]

JSG, cops shouldn't be judge and executioner. No disagreement with you there. Speaking of job description for cops, I really don't believe being a psychologist is part of their job too. Why is a mentally ill person roaming around the street by himself? And when something tragic like this happens, the fault should fall squarely on the cops' shoulders?

For sure police need to investigate why the use of excessive force. I think we all can agree those cops used way too many bullets. Where's the taser gun?

However, even the dude filming the incident realizes the inappropriate responses by that young man from beginning to end. He was acting crazy. When cops are called in to respond to that, continually acting crazy IS asking for trouble. Seasoned rational cops may be able the get things under control. However, if they were rookie cops, or perhaps the cop just came from another tense and violent crime scene,... Then it'd be difficult to predict the outcome.

[Godson]

...but I never think that the victim should be blamed...

The problem with that mindset is lack of accountability. If a group of friends goes out partying, one gets belligerently black-out drunk, mixes in with the wrong crowd and breaks the law; does that person not hold some responsibility for their actions? The courts think so.

Same goes for mentally ill people, if they are deemed incapable of self-control for their actions, they are pretty much given a life sentence in a mental hospital. Inside these hospitals is pretty similar to being in jail, with some differences.


You stated that we shouldn't point fingers... but before that, you point them at both the cops and the dead man. I get what you're saying Godson, and I agree that a taser should of been used. But I will never understand why someone will get any share of the blame if they were suffering from mental illness and the police make the decision to use lethal force. I just don't share that point of view, but I still will try and understand it and not roll over that viewpoint if I post further on the issue.

Finger pointing as defined by Merriam-Webster is : the act of blaming someone for a problem instead of trying to fix or solve it (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/finger-pointing)

I made it clear that both parties involved were not in the right and could have done things differently. I also said that what has been done is done and the only thing we can do from here is to figure out what could have been done to prevent the death of a human being. Tazering was the obvious answer, what was the reason why to police officers did not pull the tazers instead of their guns? Is it lack of training or is it something else?


The part where the officers lied on their report is not really a surprise to me. They just shot a human being to death and were possibly afraid of the repercussions. Another point is that I read a study in some cases (ie stress), we can accurately recall less than 30% of what was actually seen/heard.


UPDATE: Aug. 22, 5 p.m. -- "On the day of the officer-involved shooting, Chief Dotson briefed the media at the scene and provided information given to him by witnesses, not the officers," Schron Jackson, spokesperson for the St. Louis police, told HuffPost. "Witnesses reported the suspect held the knife in an over-hand grip. After reading the officers' statements, the next day, Chief Dotson called a press conference to inform the media/community of the officers account of the incident. It's not uncommon for initial reports to have inaccuracies, witnesses at different angles see different things. Chief Dotson was being open and transparent in releasing the video to the media/community."

Jackson added that Powell was indeed holding a knife, which was recovered at the scene.


Just because a person has a mental illness does not give them a free pass to act out. Mentally ill people do know right from wrong, they just have a difficult time associating with it and controlling their behaviors.

Just because a police officer has a gun does not give them a free pass to shoot someone when a less permanent option is available. First option should be the tazer. Perhaps when two police officers are present, one should have the tazer drawn and the other the gun. I honestly don't know much about officer training, etc being I am not one. Perhaps a party could shed some light one what could be implemented.

[TheBenior]

For sure police need to investigate why the use of excessive force. I think we all can agree those cops used way too many bullets.
Not me, because the proper amount of bullets is whatever makes the offender drop to the ground. Despite what people who've never studied real-worlds shootings realize, it's damn near impossible to get people to keep track of their rounds fired unless they get high-level, special forces training. In police shootouts, magazine dumps of the first magazine happen in a lot, if not the majority of shootings due to adrenaline. Usually the process of reloading the second mag slows things down.


The problem with that mindset is lack of accountability. If a group of friends goes out partying, one gets belligerently black-out drunk, mixes in with the wrong crowd and breaks the law; does that person not hold some responsibility for their actions? The courts think so.
Yep. By that same token, a lot of people with histories of mental illness chose not to take their medication. Alcoholics may get ill without alcohol, but that doesn't absolve them of negative/risky behaviors.


I made it clear that both parties involved were not in the right and could have done things differently. I also said that what has been done is done and the only thing we can do from here is to figure out what could have been done to prevent the death of a human being. Tazering was the obvious answer, what was the reason why to police officers did not pull the tazers instead of their guns? Is it lack of training or is it something else?
FWIU, they responded to a call of armed robbery, which probably had them in the mindset of dealing with an armed robber, not a suicidal person. They would've had to change mindsets very quickly. Just because a person says, "Shoot me!" doesn't mean that they're suicidal; some people say it because they think that you can't shoot them, so it's not a universal statement that automatically means they want a suicide-by-cop.

A taser isn't a perfect choice if for an offender armed with a lethal weapon, because if it fails, the offender is likely to be on top of you by the time you can draw your gun or the time your partner can shoot them.

[overpowered]

He was dropping to the ground by the 3rd shot. There was a shot or two as he was going down and the rest were after he was down. I counted 9 total.

[TheBenior]

Okay, you just keep having unrealistic expectations of what minimally trained police will do in high adrenaline situations.

[MR2 Fan]

http://img-9gag-lol.9cache.com/photo/aRgP1YB_460sa_v1.gif

[overpowered]

Okay, you just keep having unrealistic expectations of what minimally trained police will do in high adrenaline situations.Training needs to be better then. Over half the shots were after he started to fall.

[TheBenior]

Training needs to be better then. Over half the shots were after he started to fall.
Falling and ducking probably don't look that different when you think somebody's coming to stab you and need to make that determination in less than a second. Honestly, I'm surprised when a police shooting doesn't result in a magazine dump.

Better training would result in the man being just as dead because he'd have four bullets in the heart/lungs and two in his head.

[JSGeneral]

I'm not going to improve this thread by adding more of my two-cents on top of this discussion. There's a part of me that totally nods to what you are discussing regarding personal responsibility... no matter what their condition. The other part of me does not see it that way... making me conflicted. Still, I did what I could to try and express that other point of view. At the time, I didn't think of it as contentious. I apologize if others took offense to those statements.

[George]

Time for the good ol' Canadian Police Chase gif! :up:

http://gifshost.com/122009/1260993907_canadian_police_chase.gif

[Crazed_Insanity]

I'm not going to improve this thread by adding more of my two-cents on top of this discussion. There's a part of me that totally nods to what you are discussing regarding personal responsibility... no matter what their condition. The other part of me does not see it that way... making me conflicted. Still, I did what I could to try and express that other point of view. At the time, I didn't think of it as contentious. I apologize if others took offense to those statements.

I don't see any reason why you need to apologize. We all see things from different perspectives and we all may have strong feelings for different things. You obviously have very strong feeling about society should do more the watch out and be properly cared for the mentally illed, no disagreement with you there. It's just that I don't believe that's police's job. When they respond to whatever tense situations, I can't blame them for wanting to protect and serve themselves whenever they themselves felt threatened. They just don't have the time to play judge, executioner nor the psychologist. All they were doing was simply 'responding' to the situation. Better the training... more appropriate responses I suppose.

Anyway, I guess I'm probably the only person arguing against both sides.

Like I said, I think the kid was asking for it... literally.

I also think the police reacted excessively.

That's just my opinion based on watching that video. I'm no cop and I'm not a black kid so my opinion's probably worth less than 2 cents. However, I see no need to apologize for my opinion and I don't think you need to apologize for yours too.

Hopefully Obamacare will eventually do a better job on caring for the mentally ill patients in the future.

[Godson]

I'm not going to improve this thread by adding more of my two-cents on top of this discussion. There's a part of me that totally nods to what you are discussing regarding personal responsibility... no matter what their condition. The other part of me does not see it that way... making me conflicted. Still, I did what I could to try and express that other point of view. At the time, I didn't think of it as contentious. I apologize if others took offense to those statements.


Cognitive dissonance is not something easy to confront.

[overpowered]

Pastor calls to imprison gays for ‘ten years hard labor’ with new constitutional amendment (http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/08/25/pastor-calls-to-imprison-gays-for-ten-years-hard-labor-with-new-constitutional-amendment/)

[Yw-slayer]

http://www.forbes.com/sites/instituteforjustice/2014/08/26/philadelphia-civil-forfeiture-class-action-lawsuit/

Freedom LOLWUT?

[overpowered]

https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpa1/t1.0-9/10620653_942555052437809_6302875761353539047_n.jpg

[overpowered]

A guy pulls out a machete outside Buckingham Palace.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFddlI9QHJk

Hmmm.

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2014/08/22/heres-how-uk-police-apprehend-someone-with-a-knife-without-shooting-to-kill-video/

[Crazed_Insanity]

Enough already OP. Do you really think it is really fair to compare UK police with US police?

If you were a cop, would you rather work in UK or USA? Are those UK police even armed with guns?

[Crazed_Insanity]

http://www.forbes.com/sites/instituteforjustice/2014/08/26/philadelphia-civil-forfeiture-class-action-lawsuit/

Freedom LOLWUT?

That is amazingly fucked up. I guess they were just picking on poor folks who don't really have to means to seek real justice... hope real justice will prevail in the end.

[Yw-slayer]

Most British Police don't have guns.

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-19641398

I am probably biased, but I'd certainly rather be a cop in the UK, where it's far less likely that you'll encounter someone with a gun.

[overpowered]

Enough already OP. Do you really think it is really fair to compare UK police with US police?Not exactly the same since in the UK, police are far less likely to encounter someone with a gun.

The point is that they handled a guy with an actual big knife just fine. The first tazer wasn't effective and notice that officer backing up as the suspect charges him but the second tazer from another officer takes the suspect down. Suspect apprehended and nobody died or got seriously injured.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Gun issue aside, the situation's not even similar.

That crazy guy in UK was holding a big knife at his own neck. Police have pretty much surrounded him trying to make sure the public's safety wasn't at risk... and then they made the move. He wasn't really trying to use his knife to hurt anybody. At least it doesn't look like that to me. He also didn't try to provoke nor approach any one of the UK police by saying "taze me mother fucker or club me motherfucker!"

Where as your earlier video, police just pulled up answering to a radio call and a black dude possibly armed with some sort of weapon in his pocket and the suspect approached the police who just pulled up in an aggressive manner...

Like I've said, I wouldn't blame the US police for firing, but perhaps a more seasoned cop could realize that the kid was unarmed and on some sort of suicide mission due to mental issues. Too bad we don't live in a perfect world with perfect cops.

Anyway, my point is that you need to cut US cops some breaks. Especially during these sensitive times.

As for us regular citizens, regardless of the color of your skin, comply with the officer's requests and you'll likely survive the ordeal. If the cops beat you senselessly or whatever, at least you'll have a shot at suing them back and win your justice that way. No need to confront US cops directly and aggressively. Further, when the cops tell you to NOT run away, don't run away. It's not like police are like Taliban and you can have no recourse. If they want to arrest you or whatever, let them. Fighting them or disobeying them won't do you any good.

I'm also pretty sure US cops have diffuse similar kind of situation without resulting to loss of life. It's not standard police procedure to kill, but when US cops are spooked, don't be so shocked that bullets will come flying your way.

[Mr Wonder]

Enough already OP. Do you really think it is really fair to compare UK police with US police?

If you were a cop, would you rather work in UK or USA? Are those UK police even armed with guns?
I'd much rather work in the UK, there is a reason most of our police don't need guns. The officers from the red police car will be armed.


As for us regular citizens, regardless of the color of your skin, comply with the officer's requests and you'll likely survive the ordeal. If the cops beat you senselessly or whatever, at least you'll have a shot at suing them back and win your justice that way.This is not how policing supposed to work, this is not mega city one. Also just how exactly are Kajieme Powell and Michael Brown supposed to sue anyone to obtain justice?

[sandydandy]

https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpa1/t1.0-9/10620653_942555052437809_6302875761353539047_n.jpg She has a Mongolian spot.

[Godson]

Hahahaha.

[Yw-slayer]

As for us regular citizens, regardless of the color of your skin, comply with the officer's requests and you'll likely survive the ordeal. If the cops beat you senselessly or whatever, at least you'll have a shot at suing them back and win your justice that way. No need to confront US cops directly and aggressively.

I agree that confronting any cop "directly and aggressively" is never ideal. Having said that, if you comply with requests (assuming of course that they aren't meant to incriminate you) then while you may "survive" the ordeal, I'm reasonably sure that Asians (not AzNs) are generally treated a lot better by most US cops than, shall we say, those with more pigmentation.

Always remember this: https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2007/04/how_australian.html

I can't think of anyone who has lived in the UK for more than a few years who would much rather work as a cop in the US than in the UK, particularly given the gun issue. Steve and I are 100% of the sample size.

[LHutton]

Are those UK police even armed with guns?
Some are and those who are have to pass mental and physical examination before undergoing training. The very thought of giving a gun to all UK police is horrific, many are simply too dumb and too dishonest.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I agree that confronting any cop "directly and aggressively" is never ideal. Having said that, if you comply with requests (assuming of course that they aren't meant to incriminate you) then while you may "survive" the ordeal, I'm reasonably sure that Asians (not AzNs) are generally treated a lot better by most US cops than, shall we say, those with more pigmentation.

Always remember this: https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2007/04/how_australian.html

I can't think of anyone who has lived in the UK for more than a few years who would much rather work as a cop in the US than in the UK, particularly given the gun issue. Steve and I are 100% of the sample size.

Yeah, usually asians aren't that threatening to cops. Even after being pulled over and cited a reckless driving ticket, officer still 'treated' me rather nicely... where as a mexican friend of mine driving a BMW had always been asked to step outside of the car and searched and harassed several times whenever he got pulled over. Cops almost always assume he's driving a stolen vehicle until they confirm with the DMV that the car is actually registered in his name! So for sure police profiles people. Now if you're AzNs and driving some sort of riced up car then perhaps cops would also treat you differently...

Anyway, as people living in the US, we have the right to just remain silent and motionless until an attorney is provided to us. Just play dead! That'd be our best defense. Even if we're seriously hurt or perhaps killed, then hopefully our family and friends can still seek justice for us thru legal means. Police are not operating in Gitmo and as long as you're not apprehended by Homeland Security (ID'ed as a terrorist) and as long as you're really innocent, chances are you'll be able to see the light of day again. Police are not judge and executioner... so aren't regular citizens. Let the police arrest you... and then go thru the normal procedures in order to get justice. Don't try to fight the police right there and then also don't try to run away and lead police on a chase. Just don't do anything that might anger the police!

Thanks to our constitutional right to bear arms and the powerful lobbyist group such as NRA, being a cop in the US is for sure one of the hardest jobs in the world.

We certainly need to investigate if police screwed up somewhere and hopefully ensure that needless tragedies don't happen again. In the mean time, I do think we need to cut police some slack. They have a tough job here in the US and those were tough situations. Yeah, if I were the police involved, for sure I wouldn't shoot any of those kids. However, if I were really a cop in the US, I might not last very long while facing real criminals.

[overpowered]

Last year, but I just found out about it:

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/02/07/symbolic-idaho-bill-would-require-students-to-read-atlas-shrugged/

[overpowered]

Hopefully this is the beginning of a trend:

http://theantimedia.org/city-council-tells-police-they-have-60-days-to-plan-to-destroy-or-remove-mrap/

If military level response is required for a situation, then the national guard needs to be called in. Yes, I know that means that the state governor has to make the call. When things get to that level, it should.

[overpowered]

http://sploid.gizmodo.com/frantic-video-shows-the-iron-dome-intercepting-15-rocke-1627256058

[Crazed_Insanity]

Hamas rockets can fly that high? I always thought they were home-made and don't fly very high or far... Anyway, glad the iron dome thing works.

[Rikadyn]

It's incredibly easy to build a rocket that can fly that high. Hell hamas rockets are less advanced than some homemade rockets I have seen.

[LHutton]

$1k rocket, $1m interceptor, courtesy of US taxpayers.

[Yw-slayer]

Freedom for all LOLWUT?

http://www.salon.com/2014/08/29/st_paul_cops_tase_and_arrest_black_man_for_waiting _to_pick_his_kids_up_from_preschool/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=socialflow

[overpowered]

Cell phone cameras are watching the watchers.

[LHutton]

Urrr... not April 1st, check.

http://www.examiner.com/article/cia-now-admits-that-president-obama-is-a-radical-islamic-enemy-of-america


CIA now admits that President Obama is a radical Islamic enemy of America

[TheBenior]

Hopefully this is the beginning of a trend:

http://theantimedia.org/city-council-tells-police-they-have-60-days-to-plan-to-destroy-or-remove-mrap/

If military level response is required for a situation, then the national guard needs to be called in. Yes, I know that means that the state governor has to make the call. When things get to that level, it should.
Or, they could just make rules about when they're to be used. Pretty much the only times Chicago's ever comes out is hostage/barricade situations, which we will reliably have a few or more of in a given year. It may also lurk around during Obama visits, but I'm not 100% sure on that. That being said, I have a hard time seeing most cities with populations under 100,000 needing them regularly enough to justify the maintenance. There aren't too many cities like Gary, IN nationwide. That's how I feel about SWAT teams as well, which are rarely especially well trained on smaller departments, because regular training is expensive compared to acquiring gear (esp when it's free from the Federal government).

Given that the MRAPs are basically being used as armored car replacements (because they're free instead of a few hundred thousand dollars to acquire), they're not much more of a military response than when casinos, banks and ATMs get cash picked up/delivered. Unless they're some rolling around with M240s or M2s still attached to them.

[Drachen596]

Ft Wayne has an armored vehicle. its not an MRAP though. its a Commando V-150.

4wd amphibious vehicle. they have one, nothing else in their inventory is anywhere near as heavy. everything else is Impalas and SUVs with some Crime Scene vans. they use it when SWAT/ERT gets called and occasionally during some bad flooding. other than that its used in parades.


then again, i feel like the SWAT/ERT guys here have been doing way more call outs this year than in previous ones. quite a few people barricading themselves in houses and apartments for dumb shit. no one has actually died or been shot during these things yet though.

[Rikadyn]

http://billmoyers.com/2013/12/09/the-criminalization-of-everyday-life/

OSU campus police have an MRAP

[speedpimp]

That's one way to break through the Michigan line.

[overpowered]

Freedom for all LOLWUT?

http://www.salon.com/2014/08/29/st_paul_cops_tase_and_arrest_black_man_for_waiting _to_pick_his_kids_up_from_preschool/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=socialflow

http://www.twincities.com/crime/ci_26433870/st-paul-skyway-arrest-should-be-probed-by

[neanderthal]

That's one way to break through the Michigan line.

Touche.

[LHutton]

Why do people keep firing rockets at us?

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/09/01/world/meast/mideast-israel-west-bank/index.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+rss%2Fcnn_topstories+%28RSS%3 A+Top+Stories%29


(CNN) -- Israel came under fire Monday for claiming close to 1,000 acres of land in the Palestinian West Bank.

[sandydandy]

Why do people keep firing rockets at us?

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/09/01/world/meast/mideast-israel-west-bank/index.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+rss%2Fcnn_topstories+%28RSS%3 A+Top+Stories%29 Didn't know the West Bank was firing rockets into Israel.

[21Kid]

:erm:

GOP Claims To Be The Equal Pay For Women Party (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/09/02/gop-claims-to-be-the-equa_n_5753190.html?ncid=txtlnkusaolp00000592)

"This #LaborDay, the White House & Democrats believe paying women less than men is an acceptable practice," the Republican National Committee tweeted. "All Republicans support equal pay."

The tweet seems to paper over the party's voting record. Senate Republicans have repeatedly blocked the Paycheck Fairness Act, a bill that would make it easier for women to sue their employers over pay discrimination. The first bill President Barack Obama signed into law was the Lilly Ledbetter Fair Pay Act, and Democrats in Congress have spent the past two years pushing equal pay as part of their women's economic agenda.

Republicans, meanwhile, challenge the notion that a pay gap exists at all. They are also quick to point out that the White House has its own pay gap. The White House says all of its employees receive equal pay for equal work, but that women are more highly concentrated in junior-level positions.

According to the new poll and report commissioned by Republicans, the party's strategy on equal pay has been failing among women voters. The research, first reported by Politico, found that women strongly support policies that enforce "equal pay for equal work" and that "Republicans who openly deny the legitimacy of the issue will be seen as out of touch with women’s life experiences."

[LHutton]

Didn't know the West Bank was firing rockets into Israel.
Yes Israeli supporters often like to either group all Palestinians together or separate them depending on whether it's convenient. West Bank + Gaza = Palestinians.

http://www.fosna.org/files/fosna/image/loss_of_land.gif

[Tom Servo]

Ted Cruz, keep on keepin' on, my brother.

http://dailycaller.com/2014/09/10/ted-cruz-booed-off-stage-at-middle-east-christian-conference-video/

[LHutton]

http://eater.com/archives/2014/09/10/chipotle-workers-quit-by-leaving-epic-sign-in-window.php

http://cdn.cstatic.net/images/gridfs/5410c520f92ea12b9e0227ee/chipotle-quitting-sign-1122.jpg

[speedpimp]

Ted Cruz, keep on keepin' on, my brother.

http://dailycaller.com/2014/09/10/ted-cruz-booed-off-stage-at-middle-east-christian-conference-video/

Too bad he's too thick to realize that not all Christians see Israel as a friend.

[LHutton]

Poor George is in trouble again.

http://news.yahoo.com/police-zimmerman-accused-threatening-driver-171138304.html


ORLANDO, Fla. (AP) — A driver says George Zimmerman, the man acquitted of murdering Trayvon Martin, threatened to kill him, asking 'Do you know who I am?' during a road confrontation in their vehicles, a police spokeswoman said Friday.

[overpowered]

814
http://gtxforums.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=814&d=1410702692

[overpowered]

http://www.politicususa.com/2014/09/18/militia-group-plans-target-african-american-democrats-polling-places-wisconsin.html

[sandydandy]

You live in a sad country. :|

[tigeraid]

What in the fuck!? How is armed intimidation lawful!?

[overpowered]

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xaf1/v/t1.0-9/10702144_985085084851898_7413871347520483959_n.png ?oh=6e2afb5b4cc0073ff2063fd875ff10c1&oe=54897F26&__gda__=1418173079_241e62f468b9680049c97572d85480c 8

[speedpimp]

What in the fuck!? How is armed intimidation lawful!?

It's not legal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Black_Panther_Party_voter_intimidation_case) and if they are stupid enough to actually show up, much less armed, and carry out their plan they can be in serious Federal legal trouble.

[overpowered]

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/09/21/1331341/-TX-woman-denied-driver-license-because-of-her-same-sex-marriage?detail=email7#

[21Kid]

:smh: What a sad world we live in today... :(

[thesameguy]

One more reason to stay in California and pay the crazy-high cost of living? Maybe it's 100% totally worth it.

[LHutton]

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/09/24/first-u-s-stealth-jet-attack-on-syria-cost-79-million.html


First U.S. Stealth Jet Attack on Syria Cost More Than Indian Mission to Mars

[Crazed_Insanity]

Oh com'on, you can't compare the cost sending a scientific probe into space to striking terrorists!

For a more proper comparison, now NASA's probe to Mars costs 10 times more than Indias, but it has about 65kg of scientific instruments where as India's is just a simple demo with about 15kg of scientific instrument onboard... so if you consider $/kg ratio, NASA is only about 2.3 times more expensive. If you factor in standard of living wages in US vs India, surely US will come out ahead! Still, one has to hand it to India for such a remarkable achievement... to be able to reach Mars on their first attempt! For years back, my former employer had done cost studies using Indian engineers living India. They have shown that they can send the work there and can do the same level of work at 1/3 of the cost and 3 times the pace! (They can have 3 shifts of engineers working around the clock!) So unless we have some US government proprietary work that cannot be done outside of the country, pretty much all engineering work can be out sourced to India to be done faster and cheaper. Scary.

[Freude am Fahren]

http://www.wltx.com/story/news/local/2014/09/24/video-released-released-of-trooper-involved-shooting/16187305/

Another video of someone getting shot for DWB. Really exemplifies what Wendel Pierce (The Wire, Treme) described on Bill Maher the other night, about how the most dangerous moment for a black man in America can be getting pulled over by police.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2Byna86HVQ

(I think I'm in the right thread? OR did we have a dedicated Ferguson/race/police thread?)

[Crazed_Insanity]

Gee, good thing that trooper is a lousy shot and didn't kill him...

Wendel got it right that when pulled over, you should pay attention and just shouldn't make any sudden moves. Have your hands where the officers can see them at all times and try to make things as easy for the officer as you can... For sure there are racist cops, but I honestly do believe most of the time, cops are just scared for their lives as well. For example, this latest video showed that the cop clearly got nervous when he pulled the trigger. I can't really tell that the cop is racist. If he were, he'd probably make sure he kill the guy... or continue to beat the crap out of him. However, I think the cop realized he made a mistake shooting the poor guy.

[tigeraid]

Oh com'on, you can't compare the cost sending a scientific probe into space to striking terrorists!

For a more proper comparison, now NASA's probe to Mars costs 10 times more than Indias, but it has about 65kg of scientific instruments where as India's is just a simple demo with about 15kg of scientific instrument onboard... so if you consider $/kg ratio, NASA is only about 2.3 times more expensive. If you factor in standard of living wages in US vs India, surely US will come out ahead! Still, one has to hand it to India for such a remarkable achievement... to be able to reach Mars on their first attempt! For years back, my former employer had done cost studies using Indian engineers living India. They have shown that they can send the work there and can do the same level of work at 1/3 of the cost and 3 times the pace! (They can have 3 shifts of engineers working around the clock!) So unless we have some US government proprietary work that cannot be done outside of the country, pretty much all engineering work can be out sourced to India to be done faster and cheaper. Scary.


Missing the forest for the trees. Your country is spending a bazillion dollars (it doesn't matter how much, it's too fucking much) killing brown people in far-away lands and virtually nothing on space exploration and expanding the human race into the solar system, which is what will ACTUALLY save our civilization in the long-term.

[Crazed_Insanity]

So what is your point?

How much money is Canada spending on space exploration?

"Virtually nothing" is still way more than what the Indian govt spent.

US govt did screw itself over by messing with the middle east. Current campaign of promising no ground troop will mean we'll send more weapons into Syria to have locals fight the wars for us will again inevitably result more problems down the road as who knows who'll get their hands on these weapons. America just don't understand the concept that those who live by the guns will die by the guns. Our govt are not only trying trying to police the world, but also trying to play God. Their same old strategy is backfiring... and it will back fire even more if we don't try something new... but anyway. My earlier point was that we just can't compare military missions and scientific missions. You have any problem with that?

If you want to criticize each other's govts... So what would the Canadian govt do if canadians were beheaded by some group claiming to be out to get you. Your govt will just build more rockets in order to transport all of you to Mars to be safe?

[MR2 Fan]

So what is your point?

How much money is Canada spending on space exploration?

"Virtually nothing" is still way more than what the Indian govt spent.

US govt did screw itself over by messing with the middle east. Current campaign of promising no ground troop will mean we'll send more weapons into Syria to have locals fight the wars for us will again inevitably result more problems down the road as who knows who'll get their hands on these weapons. America just don't understand the concept that those who live by the guns will die by the guns. Our govt are not only trying trying to police the world, but also trying to play God. Their same old strategy is backfiring... and it will back fire even more if we don't try something new... but anyway. My earlier point was that we just can't compare military missions and scientific missions. You have any problem with that?

If you want to criticize each other's govts... So what would the Canadian govt do if canadians were beheaded by some group claiming to be out to get you. Your govt will just build more rockets in order to transport all of you to Mars to be safe?

Holy Crap, I agree with Billi on something

[thesameguy]

Missing the forest for the trees. Your country is spending a bazillion dollars (it doesn't matter how much, it's too fucking much) killing brown people in far-away lands and virtually nothing on space exploration and expanding the human race into the solar system, which is what will ACTUALLY save our civilization in the long-term.

You're making the assumption that we'll last that long. If some nut job wrests control of some resources and decides the answer to his problem is chemical, nuclear, or biological the ability to send objects into space may not matter. Playing the long game while the field burns isn't necessarily a good approach. I understand your sentiment, but going to the science fair while the wacko across the street waves a gun in the air may not elicit a positive reaction from your family - and justifiably so.

[21Kid]

That sounds way too logical, and void of smilies, to be something that billi wrote.

[LHutton]

I have to say that I've reviewed the figure of $79m and it sounds like BS anyway. Even at 4 times the operating cost of a Eurofighter/Rafale, that would put the F-22 at $60,000/hour and JDAMs cost maybe $100k each, so the figure of $79m just doesn't stack up unless they included the cost of the GPS satellites or something daft.

I nearly agree with Billi. Saddam, Gaddafi and Assad, whist terrible people, were the recognised governments and forces of secular stability in the region, and intervening there has been a disaster. I also don't agree with arming Syrian rebels, taking into account the aftermath of removing Gaddafi, which is still quietly unfolding out of the media spotlight, and the fact that anti-Assad forces include almost the entire FBI watch list of terrorist groups. IS on the other hand are forces of sectarian instability and not a recognised government and we were slow off the mark in allowing them to gain so much ground before airstrikes started. It would have been a whole lot easier to have hit them as soon as they touched the Iraq border, and maybe they wouldn't have been so strong without Western support for anti-Assad forces and money from Saudi Arabia and Qatar, which has basically cultivated the virus. Sometimes it's amazing the trouble we'll go to and the problems we'll cause for a pipeline to the EU.

[TheBenior]

The F-22 supposedly costs something like $68,000 per hour to fly.

[Crazed_Insanity]

If we're fucking at war with somebody, who the fuck cares how much does it cost as long as it gets the job done? Unless if IS is so smart that they set up bogus targets for US to shoot at... attempt to drag this thing on for a long time simply to drain US resources for bunch of meaningless targets. If they're really that smart, then I'll be impressed. However, I don't think they realize US govt can also print their own money. The ongoing air campaign is only going to simulate our economy enriching our defense companies and the hopefully trickle down to other sectors... so I don't really think giving US govt a good excuse to kick your ass is a good idea.

On the other hand, if you're afraid to send ground troops in because you still think the cost of precious lives still out weighs achieving military goals, then it's not a fucking war that need to be fought. The policy of befriending the enemies of your enemy really needs to end. We are just arming and training bunch of monsters down the road. I don't understand why the US govt just doesn't get that.

Personally, I think US really need to apologize to the folks over there for fucking up their lives and spend the money help rebuilding them. Whatever amount we give to Israel, we should at least give half to the arabs in need. Building basic infrastructure of course, not to finance any military stuffs. Or perhaps just pull the plug all together, including letting Isreal to be on her own, and just pray for God to take care of everything and save our money. If God intended for the Jews to have their promiseland, God will surely be able to deliver on that promise even without our help. We're not God, shouldn't be playing God. Help them, yes, if we can afford to and if it's not helping to arm them! Otherwise, we just shouldn't mess around with those in that area. Jews have survived for thousands of years. I'm pretty sure they'll still be around long after USA has disappeared off the map, just as many of the past powerful empires.

[Godson]

Is it April first?

[FaultyMario]

is there a media ombudsman in the U.S., the state of New York, maybe? (http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/okla-man-beheads-woman-workplace-fight-report-article-1.1953778)

The FBI is investigating an outbreak of Islamic State-like terror in the heartland after a recently-fired Oklahoma man stormed into a food plant and savagely beheaded a former co-worker.

Alton Nolen also stabbed and critically injured another woman before he was shot and wounded by a company executive who is also an Oklahoma County reserve deputy.

The G-men were called after workers at Vaughan Foods in Moore, Okla. reported the Nolen recently converted to Islam and had been trying to convert others, local media reported Friday.

[thesameguy]

On the upside, running into your workplace with a knife is far, far better than with an automatic weapon.

[LHutton]

Shame no one with an automatic weapon stopped him.

[Godson]

Getting an automatic weapon is a lot of work. Not to mention money.



In the amount that I doubt a food plant employee would be able to blow.

[overpowered]

Skip to 3:25 for Stewart's brilliant take on "coffeegate"

http://thedailyshow.cc.com/videos/b7hxzd/the-way-we-war

[neanderthal]

If we're fucking at war with somebody, who the fuck cares how much does it cost as long as it gets the job done?


You are, quite simply, the king of making idiotic statements. I salute you.

I've come to realise that the hacks at Fox have writers on staff to feed them the hash they spout. You on the other had, have an innate ability to say shit that is so stupefyingly; what's the word, horrific? incredible? stupid? fantastic?, on the fly that i can only compare you to a hybrid of the hardest right conspiracy sites, the Onion and Fox news.

I can only imagine how much more torrid that outpouring of mire would be if you did this pontificating full time. So, I salute you. I bow to your unique talent. It's horrifying, yet mesmerising to observe.

[neanderthal]

I'm not a big fan of expending immense resources to "rescue" a single person. Unless that person is fucking Einstein, fuck em.

So my advice to all Americans in the affected areas controlled by ISIS, ISIL, or whatever they are is simply this; get the fuck out of there. I don't see why we should be wasting, yes, wasting our money, time, resources, rescuing people who are deliberately putting themselves in danger. If those people want to kill themseves, let them. Not. Our. Problem.

[neanderthal]

Is it April first?

You're not the only one that caught that.

[MR2 Fan]

I'm not a big fan of expending immense resources to "rescue" a single person. Unless that person is fucking Einstein, fuck em.

So my advice to all Americans in the affected areas controlled by ISIS, ISIL, or whatever they are is simply this; get the fuck out of there. I don't see why we should be wasting, yes, wasting our money, time, resources, rescuing people who are deliberately putting themselves in danger. If those people want to kill themseves, let them. Not. Our. Problem.

but don't you know? There's lots of oil in the region= therefore our problem.

[overpowered]

I'm not a big fan of expending immense resources to "rescue" a single person. Unless that person is fucking Einstein, fuck em.

So my advice to all Americans in the affected areas controlled by ISIS, ISIL, or whatever they are is simply this; get the fuck out of there. I don't see why we should be wasting, yes, wasting our money, time, resources, rescuing people who are deliberately putting themselves in danger. If those people want to kill themseves, let them. Not. Our. Problem.I don't think it's anywhere near as simple as that.

For one thing, we created the environment that allowed this to happen. We never should have invaded Iraq the second time, but now there's a big mess as a result. We actually do have some responsibility for this happening.

A lot of the people there were born there. The Chaldean Christians have been there almost as long as Christianity has existed, and their ancestors were there before that. Telling them to "just leave" is not trivial.

I don't know of a good solution. Every choice seems to suck, but I don't think it's as easy as simply saying go to war because fuck 'em, or don't go to war, because fuck 'em.

[MR2 Fan]

I don't think it's anywhere near as simple as that.

For one thing, we created the environment that allowed this to happen. We never should have invaded Iraq the second time, but now there's a big mess as a result. We actually do have some responsibility for this happening.

A lot of the people there were born there. The Chaldean Christians have been there for centuries. Telling them to "just leave" is not trivial.

I don't know of a good solution. Every choice seems to suck, but I don't think it's as simple as simply saying go to war because fuck 'em, or don't go to war, because fuck 'em.

Sigh, it's times like these where I start to understand, slightly, the mindset of colonialism/imperialism...if these people can't find peace on their own for the past thousands of years.

[TheBenior]

My great-grandparents found peace by leaving northern Iraq for the US in 1925.

[thesameguy]

Going away hasn't actually been a solution for about a hundred years. Jews left Germany, it ultimately didn't do many of them a lot of good. You can certainly look at any situation that's not directly between the Atlantic and Pacific and say "not my problem," but for how long will that actually be true? Do you really want some problem "over there" being ignored til it's over here? Obviously, that line of thinking that shaped the last hundred years, but it is in fact a completely logical way of thinking, not just utter insanity. What do you do when your neighbor is waving a gun around? Pray? Get a gun and sit poised to fire back? Build a big wall? Shoot first? I dunno. Seems like quite a conundrum to me.

[overpowered]

My great-grandparents found peace by leaving northern Iraq for the US in 1925.And I'm thinking that it was not a trivial thing for them to do so.

[LHutton]

Getting an automatic weapon is a lot of work. Not to mention money.

In the amount that I doubt a food plant employee would be able to blow.
Company executive could (non-automatic;)):

http://www.cnn.com/2014/09/26/us/oklahoma-beheading/

[LHutton]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/11119062/Incest-a-fundamental-right-German-committee-says.html


Laws banning incest between brothers and sisters in Germany could be scrapped after a government ethics committee said the they were an unacceptable intrusion into the right to sexual self-determination.

“Criminal law is not the appropriate means to preserve a social taboo,” the German Ethics Council said in a statement. “The fundamental right of adult siblings to sexual self-determination is to be weighed more heavily than the abstract idea of protection of the family.”

[neanderthal]

but don't you know? There's lots of oil in the region= therefore our problem.


And that's the problem.

As long as we are hooked on cheap oil it will remain our problem. Solution; public transport, bicycles, electric cars, solar everyroof

[neanderthal]

I don't think it's anywhere near as simple as that.

For one thing, we created the environment that allowed this to happen. We never should have invaded Iraq the second time, but now there's a big mess as a result. We actually do have some responsibility for this happening.

A lot of the people there were born there. The Chaldean Christians have been there almost as long as Christianity has existed, and their ancestors were there before that. Telling them to "just leave" is not trivial.

I don't know of a good solution. Every choice seems to suck, but I don't think it's as easy as simply saying go to war because fuck 'em, or don't go to war, because fuck 'em.

Us being there is certainly NOT helping. Us bombing is certainly not helping. Us anything there is certainly not helping, so why?

Two wrongs don't make a right.

If individual citizens choose to go there, it's their choice. If they get kidnapped by ISIS, fuck em. They chose to go there knowing the dangers and risks. Why embroil the whole nation in a state of war for one persons foolish errand? Let them reap the consequences of their actions.

There's a reason most people avoid living in dangerous neighbourhoods if they can, right?

[overpowered]

And what of the Chaldean Christians, who have lived there for thousands of years?

[LHutton]

So "no boots on the ground," just became, "boots on the ground."

http://www.funker530.com/obama-putting-boots-on-the-ground-in-iraq/


The 1st Infantry Division Headquarters, based out of Fort Riley, Kansas will be the first division headquarters to deploy to Iraq since the withdrawal in 2011, and will consist of about 500 soldiers. They will deploy in late October and will hold positions in Baghdad, Kurdistan, and possibly other areas not currently being declared by the CENTCOM.

[overpowered]

Yet another attempt by the right to keep people from being able to vote:

http://www.politicususa.com/2014/09/26/koch-group-sends-incorrect-registration-info-hundreds-north-carolina-voters-cat.html

[neanderthal]

And what of the Chaldean Christians, who have lived there for thousands of years?

Why the fuck are they our problem? Are we defenders of the faith all of a sudden?

We're not defending the Ndebele in Zimbabwe or the Laotians in whereverthefuckthey'refrom so why are they our concern. This is a regional problem, and we don't belong in that region. Period.

[overpowered]

If you're OK with the fact that genocide is happening and that we are partly responsible for it happening, then I guess we have nothing to talk about.

[LHutton]

There are times when it's complicated and the 'bad guy' is also the recognised government but in this case the situation is very simple. Lunatics have invaded a country where they don't belong and are killing everyone who doesn't support their lunacy. I wouldn't put boots on the ground though, with air support the Syrian army, Iraqi army, Kurds and Shia militias will take care of the ground work.

[JoshInKC]

... the Laotians in whereverthefuckthey'refrom ...

As a rule, Laotians are from Laos.

[thesameguy]

I'd always heard that. Nice to see it confirmed.

[Godson]

Genocide is bad. Just ask Hitler.

[overpowered]

Another female air-head on Fox, this time blaming drunk girls for being sexually assaulted:

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/09/fox-hosts-blame-drunk-girls-for-frat-rapes-these-guys-what-are-they-supposed-to-do/

[Crazed_Insanity]

I guess Neanderthals extinction isn't without reason. If your own family made a poor decision and got into trouble, all you could respond with is fuck him? If Homo sapiens threaten to chop your head off all you can respond with is that let's just hide in our cave?

Your position makes good logical rational and perhaps even financial sense. Why waste precious resources to rescue one dumbass? But frankly it just doesn't pass humanity's emotional sense or moral sense.

If I'm president, I'll certainly try to rescue any American fool. I'll also make sure to make our enemies think twice about threatening us. Genocide is also something I won't tolerate. Of course, I won't be president. Just saying. I think your idea can perhaps only work on planet Vulcan or somewhere logic is supreme over everything.

[neanderthal]

If you're OK with the fact that genocide is happening and that we are partly responsible for it happening, then I guess we have nothing to talk about.

I'm not ok with it, but at the same time i'm wondering why it seems to be our problem, not the Zambians. Or Portuguese. Or Venezuelans. Or Samoans. Etc. Why are we the ones who have to commit our soldiers, resources, time, money to go there.?

[neanderthal]

I guess Neanderthals extinction isn't without reason. If your own family made a poor decision and got into trouble, all you could respond with is fuck him? If Homo sapiens threaten to chop your head off all you can respond with is that let's just hide in our cave?

Your position makes good logical rational and perhaps even financial sense. Why waste precious resources to rescue one dumbass? But frankly it just doesn't pass humanity's emotional sense or moral sense.

If I'm president, I'll certainly try to rescue any American fool. I'll also make sure to make our enemies think twice about threatening us. Genocide is also something I won't tolerate. Of course, I won't be president. Just saying. I think your idea can perhaps only work on planet Vulcan or somewhere logic is supreme over everything.

You won't tolerate genocide? Why the fuck are you hiding behind your computer then? Why aren't you on the frontlines of Syria and Iraq taking care of business.

Yes, if I had a a family member who was daft enough to go deliberately into harms way and harm befell them, I would wave and say sayonara rather than ask other people to step into the teeth of the tiger to rescue their dumb ass. Best belie' dat!

[neanderthal]

As a rule, Laotians are from Laos.

:D

I was originally thinking about another oppressed minority in China when I first started writing that, and then at the last second I couldn't remember them. Slipped in Laos at the last second. Got caught.

[overpowered]

I'm not ok with it, but at the same time i'm wondering why it seems to be our problem, not the Zambians. Or Portuguese. Or Venezuelans. Or Samoans. Etc. Why are we the ones who have to commit our soldiers, resources, time, money to go there.?Maybe you missed the part about us being partly responsible for it happening?

[neanderthal]

Maybe you missed the part about us being partly responsible for it happening?

Oh I got. I got it in two thousand whenever we invaded Iraq. Let those pro war hawks from then go fix their fuckup. It ain't mine.


What i'm not getting is how long we need to keep interfering with that region. Especially given how shaky our economy still is. given we still haven't paid for that last engagement. Given how after all the liberation and force feeding of "freedom" they still mostly loathe us. Given how after implementing "democracy" they've screwed it up. Given these tribal, um, .....differences have been there for centuries. Given,... Given, ...., Given,...

[IMOA]

Oh I got. I got it in two thousand whenever we invaded Iraq. Let those pro war hawks from then go fix their fuckup. It ain't mine.


What i'm not getting is how long we need to keep interfering with that region. Especially given how shaky our economy still is. given we still haven't paid for that last engagement. Given how after all the liberation and force feeding of "freedom" they still mostly loathe us. Given how after implementing "democracy" they've screwed it up. Given these tribal, um, .....differences have been there for centuries. Given,... Given, ...., Given,...

There's some upsides with being a global leader and there's some downsides, this is one of the downsides.

[overpowered]

There's some upsides with being a global leader and there's some downsides, this is one of the downsides.Yep.

As I said before, I don't see any alternatives that I like. Doing nothing sucks. Invading sucks. Even helping others in the region deal with the psychopaths sucks. I don't like any of the available choices. However, we do have a certain amount of responsibility here and these complete psychopaths would not be able to do what they were doing if we had not removed the psychopaths who were keeping them at least somewhat in check.

[LHutton]

And the EU can't get a pipeline to Northern Iraq and Saudi Arabia unless we remove ISIS and Assad. There is a cynical side to it too, as always.

[JoshInKC]

:D

I was originally thinking about another oppressed minority in China when I first started writing that, and then at the last second I couldn't remember them. Slipped in Laos at the last second. Got caught.
Uighurs/Uygurs/Uigurs maybe? They're a relatively commonly mentioned oppressed ethnicity in China.
:)

[Crazed_Insanity]

You won't tolerate genocide? Why the fuck are you hiding behind your computer then? Why aren't you on the frontlines of Syria and Iraq taking care of business.

Yes, if I had a a family member who was daft enough to go deliberately into harms way and harm befell them, I would wave and say sayonara rather than ask other people to step into the teeth of the tiger to rescue their dumb ass. Best belie' dat!

Yeah, as commander-in-chief of the largest military forces in the world, and especially as a lame duck president, I won't hesitate to do the right thing. Preventing genocide can't be the wrong thing to do. Now, like I said, of course I'm not president. I'm also not an one man army like Rambo. So don't expect ME personally to be fighting against genocides all over the world. I don't have that capability. Still, I wouldn't say fuck them because I have a heart.

If you see your own dumbass family memebers in trouble and can't even lift a finger to dial 911 to ask for help, no wonder you're extincted. Don't expect other human beings to act like you do.

[21Kid]

Yet another attempt by the right to keep people from being able to vote:

http://www.politicususa.com/2014/09/26/koch-group-sends-incorrect-registration-info-hundreds-north-carolina-voters-cat.html

In North Carolina, it is a felony to intentionally send out incorrect voter registration information. Americans For Prosperity is claiming that the incorrect info was a mistake, so no charges will be filed.

:erm: So, all you have to do is say "Whoops, I didn't mean to commit a felony." and all is forgiven. :? :smh:

[thesameguy]

Yes, that is true.

[21Kid]

Guess I should try that if I ever get into deep trouble, like a felony.



:rolleyes:

[MR2 Fan]

Guess I should try that if I ever get into deep trouble, like a felony.



:rolleyes:

technically that's all you have to do to escape the pits of hell and go to heaven also, but that's another thread ;)

[21Kid]

:lol:

[Crazed_Insanity]

No... repentance is different than trying to weasel out and claiming that you didn't mean to do it. :p

[neanderthal]

Yeah, as commander-in-chief of the largest military forces in the world, and especially as a lame duck president, I won't hesitate to do the right thing. Preventing genocide can't be the wrong thing to do. Now, like I said, of course I'm not president. I'm also not an one man army like Rambo. So don't expect ME personally to be fighting against genocides all over the world. I don't have that capability. Still, I wouldn't say fuck them because I have a heart.

If you see your own dumbass family memebers in trouble and can't even lift a finger to dial 911 to ask for help, no wonder you're extincted. Don't expect other human beings to act like you do.

Sounds like you "don't tolerate genocide" only as long as someone else puts their ass on the line to fight it.
Which means you will tolerate it when it's your ass on the line.

At least you've cleared that up.

[neanderthal]

There's some upsides with being a global leader and there's some downsides, this is one of the downsides.

This is the most reasonable response i've heard about this. Thank you.

[neanderthal]

Yep.

As I said before, I don't see any alternatives that I like. Doing nothing sucks. Invading sucks. Even helping others in the region deal with the psychopaths sucks. I don't like any of the available choices. However, we do have a certain amount of responsibility here and these complete psychopaths would not be able to do what they were doing if we had not removed the psychopaths who were keeping them at least somewhat in check.

I can see that.
But it begs the question; why isn't the entire world up in arms over the genocide. If Lesotho and Myanmmar and Leichtenstein and portugal and Chile and everybody else is committing to send funds to help fight ISIS, I don't have a problem with us having to do the fighting. But from where I am sitting we bear the moral responsibility to fight this as the superpower, but also the economic responsibility. Only superpowers can have morals?

the other side of that coin of course is that fighting genocide ISIS etc will further legitimise our "superpowerness" if China and the Soviets don't get involved, but that doesn't soothe the burn in the economy.
The moral obligation to prevent genocide is everyones. I just don't see anyone else stepping up even if it's to supply a weeks worth of food to a proposed coalition army. Therein lies my discontent.

If it's the human issue we say it is, then all governments should be pitching in.


And the EU can't get a pipeline to Northern Iraq and Saudi Arabia unless we remove ISIS and Assad. There is a cynical side to it too, as always.

You'd think with the Ukraine situation still in flux that Europe would be scrambling to secure alternate sources of oil and gas. Guess not.

[Godson]

I think what may be the point of struggle is that the other countries you list don't have the resources or a 'stable' enough government to actually help out in the fashion we can.

I think China is just happy to have a booming economy even though they are in some hot water. Russia is still trying to show they aren't operating as a 'communist' government even though the undertones and actions say otherwise.

[LHutton]

You'd think with the Ukraine situation still in flux that Europe would be scrambling to secure alternate sources of oil and gas. Guess not.
They are and were even before the Ukraine crisis. There is another pipeline from Russia that doesn't run through Ukraine but that isn't the point, they don't like having Russia as the sole supplier and the cost advantage of having a supply piped direct from the Middle East and not having to either pay Suez fees or sail round the Cape of Africa is massive for both the EU and the US.

[IMOA]

I can see that.
But it begs the question; why isn't the entire world up in arms over the genocide. If Lesotho and Myanmmar and Leichtenstein and portugal and Chile and everybody else is committing to send funds to help fight ISIS, I don't have a problem with us having to do the fighting. But from where I am sitting we bear the moral responsibility to fight this as the superpower, but also the economic responsibility. Only superpowers can have morals?

the other side of that coin of course is that fighting genocide ISIS etc will further legitimise our "superpowerness" if China and the Soviets don't get involved, but that doesn't soothe the burn in the economy.
The moral obligation to prevent genocide is everyones. I just don't see anyone else stepping up even if it's to supply a weeks worth of food to a proposed coalition army. Therein lies my discontent.

If it's the human issue we say it is, then all governments should be pitching in.

There's a lot of governments pitching in. Australia has been making food and weapons drops for a month and last week sent over F18's, support crew and the SAS. Britain has sent aircraft, UAE, Jordan and Saudi Arabia have been conducting air strikes, France, Germany, Canada, Italy, Denmark, Poland are sending forces. It's not just the US.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Not everyone's going to agree on everything, including moral values. If we can only act when everyone agrees, then we'll never be able to act on anything!

I alone cannot stop a genocide, that's why I don't act alone. Best I can do is enlist voluntarily to fight for something I believe is a good cause. Great power comes with great responsibilities. If you have the power to stop something apparently bad/evil and yet you don't act, that is fucked up.

If whatever we're 'acting on' is something UN totally opposes, then perhaps we need to think twice before going forward. Chances are, genocide is not something UN would find agreeable. Even then, you may not have everyone agreeing that it's bad.

As for attacking IS in Syria, that's probably something way less as black and white. IS isn't targeting all nations around the world and some countries may be more friendly to Syria and/or they may also have other self interests in the region regarding whether to support US or not. I honestly don't know what's the best thing to do at this point, but I do know doing nothing is probably not the best thing to do.

[neanderthal]

There's a lot of governments pitching in. Australia has been making food and weapons drops for a month and last week sent over F18's, support crew and the SAS. Britain has sent aircraft, UAE, Jordan and Saudi Arabia have been conducting air strikes, France, Germany, Canada, Italy, Denmark, Poland are sending forces. It's not just the US.


I've deliberately left out the few countries that are actually doing something, ergo actually giving a damn.

[FaultyMario]

I'm actually surprised right wing lunatics haven't pinned this on Obama yet (http://www.npr.org/2014/10/01/352775195/secret-talks-and-back-channels-pervaded-u-s-relationship-with-cuba), commie lover and such.

[overpowered]

Koch brothers try to make Rachel Maddow read their script:

http://www.liberalamerica.org/2014/09/23/koch-brothers-rachel-maddow/

[thesameguy]

The Koch Bros are some terrifying mfers.

[21Kid]

It amazes me that people with that much money and power still aren't satisfied. What could they possibly do with another $10b that they can't do now? $20b? There is no end to the greed... :(

[speedpimp]

What strikes me as weird is that Koch Brothers has been running commercials on ESPN touting the beneficial things that the company does. Looks like they are trying to do a "Hearts And Minds" PR campaign.

[overpowered]

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2014/10/07/cardinals_michael_brown_fans_ferguson_protestors_i n_face_off_outside_stadium.html

[overpowered]

They say that most americans could not pass the citizenship test. I took all 4 of these practice tests. I got 99/100 (25 for each test). The only one I missed was on why colonists came to america which is a bullshit question. Also, I took the test while drunk. Anyway, I'm pretty sure that 99/100 is a passing grade.

http://www.uscis.gov/citizenship/quiz/learners/study-test/study-materials-civics-test/naturalization-self-test-1

[overpowered]

The local congress race is kind of interesting because we have Carl DeMaio, an openly gay republican running for the spot. The attack ads against him focus on his affiliation with the Tea Party and alignment with many of their views (mostly tax and fiscal stuff). His being gay is almost never brought up and in the rare cases that it is, it's by him or his campaign, like showing him with his partner in an ad. I'd like to think that this is normal but I'm pretty sure that if it was a gay democrat, it wouldn't be like that.

[speedpimp]

You think?

[Crazed_Insanity]

Unless you're in a super conservative district, I'm pretty sure it'll most likely backfire if you attack a candidate simply because his or her sexual orientation.

San Diego is probably more conservative than other big CA cities, but it's still pretty blue, right? I wouldn't be surprised that sending out a gay Republican was the party's attempt to win over some liberal votes. I really think 'Christianity' is only something the Republican Party used to win votes. If that no longer works, surely the party will have no issues dumping Jesus. Wasn't it during Stewart's or Corbert's show that they once ask Republican Congressmen to cite the 10 commandments? They can't remember them.

[Jason]

San Diego county is conservative, San Diego city is pretty liberal, iirc.

[overpowered]

https://scontent-b-pao.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/t31.0-8/1096960_321283011377246_6773839163260589030_o.jpg

[overpowered]

https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xap1/v/t1.0-9/10580042_969785666381414_335470882504642911_n.jpg? oh=45c2bc4dfc1b96349c10dac34e54668a&oe=54CBE761&__gda__=1421172776_2f06ce7dc5a907b2700f480a1cc82ba c

[JoshInKC]

We (Kansas) got gay marriage, so that's pretty cool.
Article. (http://www.pitch.com/FastPitch/archives/2014/10/08/johnson-county-judge-gives-ok-to-kansas-gay-marriage-licenses)
Stupid Trivia: The judge who wrote the order and is pictured in the article is the same guy who married my wife and I. We chose him because his last name is the same as Shelock Holmes' nemesis.

[Crazed_Insanity]

He has funky looking eyes.

[21Kid]

Muslim-Free Gun Range (http://news.yahoo.com/muslim-free-gun-range-arkansas-160333108.html)


A Muslim civil rights group is asking the Department of Justice to investigate an Arkansas shooting range whose owner recently declared it a "Muslim-free zone."
...
"This is not a coffee and donut shop," Jan Morgan, owner of the Gun Cave Indoor Shooting Range in Hot Springs, Ark., wrote in an online post last month. "This is a live fire indoor shooting range ... Why would I want to rent or sell a gun and hand ammunition to someone who aligns himself with a religion that commands him to kill me?"
...
"People who shoot at my range come from all religious backgrounds," she wrote. "I do not care about their religious beliefs until or unless those beliefs command them to commit violent crimes against innocent people and I witness those crimes increasing, as we all have lately."
...
"I understand that not all Muslims are terrorists," Morgan continued. "I also believe there are as many Muslims who do not know what is in their Koran as there are Christians who do not know what is in their Bible. Since I have no way of discerning which Muslims will or will not kill in the name of their religion and the commands in their Koran, I choose to err on the side of caution for the safety of my patrons."

[overpowered]

Apparently I spoke too soon. The gay thing is becoming an issue after all.

http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/Carl-DeMaio-Masturbation-Rumors-San-Diego-Congress-Campaign-Peters-278558061.html

[Rikadyn]

Muslim-Free Gun Range (http://news.yahoo.com/muslim-free-gun-range-arkansas-160333108.html)

Is he gonna ban Christians too then?

[LHutton]

Muslim-Free Gun Range (http://news.yahoo.com/muslim-free-gun-range-arkansas-160333108.html)
On the plus side it will prevent Muslims being shot. Missing the point aren't I?

[MR2 Fan]

So, has politics in the U.S. jumped the shark? Will we ever have a decent, civil discourse or a well respected (by most) President and Congress again?

[Tom Servo]

I like to think that we actually can normally still have decent, civil discourse, but the internet has made it a lot easier to notice the wingnuts that were already there. I have no evidence to back that up, but I like to think that.

[Godson]

It has always been this way. Look at the political survey responses in the mid 1800s.

[21Kid]

Is he gonna ban Christians too then?
I was thinking the same thing... about her. ;)
http://l2.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/cNRRh46ZEIusrJlH7rVfeA--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7Zmk9ZmlsbDtoPTQ3ODtweW9mZj0wO3E9Nz U7dz03MTc-/http://l.yimg.com/os/publish-images/news/2014-10-09/d82bdf60-4fe0-11e4-9c8b-8f622949e40a_576047_3386386069549_310583589_n1.jpg

[21Kid]

A conservative judge's devastating take on why voter ID laws are evil (http://www.latimes.com/business/hiltzik/la-fi-mh-why-voter-id-laws-are-evil-20141013-column.html#page=1)


Before walking through Posner's opinion, a few words about why he's important. Posner, 75, is no wooly-headed liberal, but a card-carrying conservative who was appointed to the circuit bench by Ronald Reagan in 1981. He's widely regarded as the smartest jurist in the federal judiciary, and was identified in 2000 by Fred Shapiro of Yale Law School as the most-cited legal scholar of all time.

Posner's dissent in the Wisconsin voter ID case is especially telling, because he wrote the so-called Crawford decision in 2007 upholding Indiana's voter ID law, in which he was upheld by the Supreme Court. But he has since recanted. In a 2013 book, he accepted the view that such laws are properly regarded as "a means of voter suppression rather than fraud prevention." That's the view that informs his latest opinion.

Posner systematically demolishes every argument mustered in support of voter ID laws. Combating voter fraud? "There is compelling evidence that voter-impersonation fraud is essentially nonexistent in Wisconsin." Assertions about voter fraud are "a mere fig leaf for efforts to disenfranchise voters." He adds that "some of the 'evidence' of voter-impersonation fraud is downright goofy, if not paranoid...

Posner places Wisconsin's argument for its voter ID law within a "fact-free cocoon."
:eek:

[Godson]

Wow.

[overpowered]

http://thefreethoughtproject.com/cop-history-malfunctioning-body-cam-shoots-19-year-old-girl-yep-malfunction/

[overpowered]

North Carolina state senator Jeff Jackson makes a great speech about the political games going on with the budget.


https://vimeo.com/102299905

[overpowered]

http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/criticism-obamas-pronouns-falls-apart

[overpowered]

http://money.cnn.com/2014/10/21/news/hong-kong-leung-inequality/index.html

[sandydandy]

Soldier killed and multiple shootings and gunmen in Ottawa (Canadian capital) this morning.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/10/22/world/americas/canada-ottawa-shooting/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

No confirmation that this is terror related...but I was listening to the radio this morning and people's minds have already been made up. Guess Canada has finally become important enough to attack...which is a relief, we were suffering from terror envy for a long time.

As a brown non-Muslim guy, I can only say gee thanks to the terrorists...can't wait for all the funny looks and cut-eye from people who think I'm one of them.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I'd think terrorists would want to inflict greater damage than this..., it's probably just somebody mental.

[sandydandy]

There was an attack in Queebec the other day on a soldier (I think) and it was by a recent ISIS-via-internet convert. Many people are 'connecting the dots' and are convinced this is related. I find the hysteria to be amusing.

[MR2 Fan]

Fox News host tells young women not to vote (Brilliant!) :smh:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/10/22/fox-news-young-women-voters-kimberly-guilfoyle-midterm-election_n_6028054.html?ncid=fcbklnkushpmg00000063

[overpowered]

http://www.itv.com/news/2014-10-22/tory-councillor-sorry-for-saying-execute-travellers/

[overpowered]

https://scontent-a-lax.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/10632738_979103878782926_7303517347649535253_n.png ?oh=254a8d15eef6d316963298b80e48382f&oe=54EE17AE

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/ted-cruz-chief-staff-blamed-obamacare-ebola-article-1.1985522

[Freude am Fahren]

:lol:

[LHutton]

JFC that's hilarious.:lol: Obola.

[21Kid]

Obviously we couldn't let Canada hog the spotlight for too long. :rolleyes:
4 wounded, 2 dead at high school shooting (http://news.yahoo.com/two-dead-including-gunman-shooting-washington-high-school-201342337.html) :(

[overpowered]

http://jezebel.com/5893011/law-will-allow-employers-to-fire-women-for-using-whore-pills

:smh:

[overpowered]

http://www.examiner.com/article/fox-news-host-caught-red-handed-lying-about-fake-voting-scandal

[overpowered]

http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/full-credit-or-blame-gas-prices

[Godson]

:lol:

[21Kid]

This stuff seems made up. Every time, I can't believe that it's real. :( It's so depressing that people are so misleading and hurtful towards others.

[MR2 Fan]

Jon Stewart takes it to the Koch Bros who are for some reason advertising during The Daily Show now:

(best part starts at 2:57 with their own version of the ad, it's brilliant)

http://thedailyshow.cc.com/videos/avy6xw/democalypse-2014---south-by-south-mess--ad-of-brothers

[Crazed_Insanity]

Hmm..., wow. I had no idea who these bros are until now. I used to love Coke, but not anymore! :p

[thesameguy]

The Koch Brothers are literally the antichrist. Literally. Some sort of evil Voltron. I don't know what happens when they combine, but it won't be good.

[21Kid]

Geez. :smh:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkhKF3qNHZU

They need to stop calling it "White Privelage" for one thing. Many people feel they don't have privileged lives. Even if they do have an advantage, they won't consider themselves "privileged". They need to use a different term to describe the socioeconomic advantage. Like John Stewart did when he called it a "Factor (http://thedailyshow.cc.com/videos/trzku7/exclusive---bill-o-reilly-extended-interview)".

[Crazed_Insanity]

So you actually agree with Bill O'Riley?

[MR2 Fan]

Hmm..., wow. I had no idea who these bros are until now. I used to love Coke, but not anymore! :p

:erm:

[speedpimp]

Koch is pronounced like Coke. He made a play on words.

[MR2 Fan]

Koch is pronounced like Coke. He made a play on words.

Oh, I understood it...otherwise I'd have posted: :?

[FaultyMario]

A few months before the war [ended], there was a meeting that I talk about in the book where he met at a safe house in Zurich with Himmler’s ex-chief of staff, who was trying to save his own skin. He realized the war was about to be over in a few months, and he was understandably afraid of being charged in all sorts of war crimes. This was Himmler’s chief of staff. He was involved in setting up the train network that led millions of Jews and others to their deaths. And Dulles thought that this general, General Karl Wolff, could help end the war earlier. As it turned out, they ended the war maybe two weeks earlier in the region in Italy that Wolff controlled. But as part of these negotiations, they were sipping Scotch over a lovely fireside in Zurich. For months and months after the war, even for the first couple of years, Dulles really effectively protected General Wolff, Himmler’s ex-chief of staff, from war crimes charges. And Wolff went from being a chief defendant, one of the top Nazi defendants at Nuremberg, to being merely a witness, and served virtually no time in prison. In fact, even when he was nominally a prisoner as a POW, he was allowed to wear a gun. He went boating on the weekends in Austria. He led sort of a charmed life after the war, thanks to the help of Allen Dulles, who went on to become the first director of the CIA.

...And justice for all. Right?

[thesameguy]

Man, hard to say. If you were the relative of one of the people who would have died in those two weeks in question, maybe it wasn't such a bad trade. One guy's sentence in exchange for two, two hundred, or two thousand lives? Seems like a deal worth considering.

[LHutton]

Lots of rocket technology and much else was obtained by similar deals. Operation Paperclip.

[overpowered]

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2014/11/02/mitch-mcconnell-commits-election-fraud-as-grimes-files-lawsuit-calling-for-investigation-photos/

[overpowered]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRZZpk_9k8E

:smh:

[neanderthal]

Go Texas!!!

[21Kid]

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2014/11/02/mitch-mcconnell-commits-election-fraud-as-grimes-files-lawsuit-calling-for-investigation-photos/

The worst part is that, if that is true, there is a very good chance that nothing will ever come of it. :smh: For some reason politicians never get prosecuted for this stuff. Look at Scott Walker in WI. :(

[overpowered]

Russia dismantles Steve Jobs memorial as 'gay propaganda' after Apple's Tim Cook comes out (http://www.smh.com.au/world/russia-dismantles-steve-jobs-memorial-as-gay-propaganda-after-apples-tim-cook-comes-out-20141104-11geqd.html)

On the one hand, I hate the homophobia of Russia. On the other hand, I'm not a big fan of Steve Jobs.

[Random]

Steve Jobs wasn't homosexual, so that move confuses me. It was a memorial to Steve Jobs, not Apple, right? :?

People are weird.

[overpowered]

Bigotry and rational thought do not tend to mix all that often.

[Tom Servo]

I wonder what would happen if someone told the people dismantling the memorial that doing so was "gay". Could we create some sort of perpetual motion machine out of that?

[MR2 Fan]

I don't know why democrats never show up for mid-terms...ugh

[overpowered]

A bunch of hippies high on pot.

[overpowered]

https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xap1/v/t1.0-9/10269379_986433838049930_9101053688533915193_n.jpg ?oh=82f5b1137bf03bbcc8f6e2e8b960275c&oe=54D2F957&__gda__=1423540363_d250143459f356f12f11984b7bd2672 7

[Tom Servo]

I showed up and most things went my way here in CA. Not all of them though, but better than I usually get.

[neanderthal]

Now Republicans will actually have to lead, actually govern, vs that whole Benghazi, IRS gate, Obama takes too many vacations, he didn't salute properly, ISIS, Syria, bullshit they were doing before. In two years, these gains could be losses.

Lets bloody hope so.

[Rikadyn]

Wonder if I should extend my stay into Japan...maybe ask for political asylum...

[MR2 Fan]

Wonder if I should extend my stay into Japan...maybe ask for political asylum...

:up:

[LHutton]

It's bad when people start defecting.

[21Kid]

I am worried we will turn into Kansas. :(

[Godson]

Everybody I worried they will turn into Kansas....

[George]

There was a time when I would have been celebrating wildly for such a comprehensive Republican victory. 1994 comes to mind.

These days, more than a decade after renouncing my Republicanism, I just don't know what to think about this election. Politicians from both major parties annoy me pretty much equally, although usually for different reasons.

I had a hard time voting for any of the candidates for national office on my ballot, as it was hard to tell who was the lesser of two evils.

But, that's politics in the USA, and nothing really changes, except hopefully we will stop getting political phone calls at all hours of the day and night now that the election is over.

[overpowered]

https://scontent-b-lax.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/10641070_10204357798456431_130516085371260477_n.jp g?oh=2f6d242b53199ad41c872c6b6d8744d6&oe=54DC0719

[LHutton]

There was a time when I would have been celebrating wildly for such a comprehensive Republican victory. 1994 comes to mind.
It's not your fault, 1994 is approximately where it ended.

[speedpimp]

It's bad when people start defecting.

TBH Rikdayn was already defective.

[KillerB]

To be fair, it's not entirely clear to me who I could vote for that actually would stop tapping our computer messages, sending jobs overseas, and limiting Internet freedom. Seems like that shit all has bipartisan support. :rolleyes:

[Crazed_Insanity]

Yeah, I didn't bother voting. It's not like Republicans have any chance at my district anyway. ;)

Yes, there are Obama haters and they'll hate Obama no matter what. However, try looking at Obama from a more neutral perspective and just how well has he done over the past years... I don't know. ACA is a nice and noble idea, but still poorly implemented. Now, don't get me wrong, if I can go back in time, I still won't vote for Romney. Just saying President's low rating is a reflection of his job performance. We were hopeful, but he failed to deliver real change. Not sure what else can he do now that he has completely lost congress.

Further, the previous democratically controlled senate really hasn't been doing much either. What do they have to show for? Both sides are just so very busy in blocking each other and they really have no real accomplishments that they can show the voters.

I wouldn't be surprised that the disgruntled voters swing again and vote the other side to show their displeasure few years down the road... but reality is regardless of which party is in charge, status quo remains. Polarization also remains.

Anyway, our founding fathers probably anticipated this... this is why our government was designed to have these check and balances so that gridlocks take place. This kind of slow death is definitely more favorable than having some charismatic leader charging us off a cliff!

Lastly, I have to disagree with that cartoon OP posted..., I don't think the voters are really that stupid or crazy to vote Republicans..., like I said, when you do your job poorly, you'd certainly not end up energizing your base. If you do your job well, and voters still vote you out of office, then they're crazy and stupid. For now, democrats have only themselves to blame.

[21Kid]

Can we at least all agree that the media needs to stop using the term "Slam" whenever anyone says anything about someone?


MSNBC's Chris Matthews and Al Sharpton slammed Grimes' speech as ungracious. "That wasn't your usual concession speech," Matthews said. "Usually you congratulate the winner. You say something gracious. You move on. You unify the state to some extent. It was a partisan speech."

He continued: "You have to observe certain protocols in American politics. Just do it, get it over with. You don't have to like the guy."
That just sounds like commentary to me. I didn't perceive anyone getting slammed.

I'm so sick of that term.

[speedpimp]

It's not like they said "Rev. Al dishes out an EPIC SLAM."

[Crazed_Insanity]

Not sure if we need to all agree on how we should censor what the media is spewing out.

If a particular reporter or news agency is consistently making you sick, perhaps you should just stop reading news from them.

I do agree that media really should try to deliver news in a neutral way so that the least # of people can get sick upon reading them.

[overpowered]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrectdcH81U

[Rikadyn]

It's bad when people start defecting.

not really defecting when you didn't hold loyalty in the first place

[overpowered]

The voter turnout was abysmal. A lot of it was probably not so much defection as abdication. Republicans are more likely to vote no matter what. When there's "high" (for us) voter turnout, things tend to lean democrat. When there's lower voter turnout, it tends to lean republican.

Four years ago, the mid-terms got 42% turnout (as opposed to the ~60% typical for presidential elections)

This year, it's looking like 36.6% which might be a record low.

San Diego's 52nd district which has one of the nastier battles in the country (gay tea party republican vs. kind of sleazy democrat) is still not decided but the democrat is currently in the lead by 861 votes, which represents a difference of 0.54 percentage points, so they're still counting votes where people went to the wrong polling place and some mail-in ballots that got delayed by the post office and crap like that.

When you don't vote, you effectively vote for whoever wins.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Such a smart move by the Republicans there... a gay candidate to appeal to the liberal voters... and if the sleazy democrat losses, is that a bad thing? Must a democrat win by default no matter what? IMHO, it's kinda pathetic to have a sleazebag be so close to winning.

Well, I didn't vote. Republicans still can't win an election in my district! Ha! Hope the democrats here are not that sleazy... anyway, I heard voter turn out for Los Angeles was a dismal 16%!

When fucking politicians behave just the same, you can't expect voters to want to enthusiastically participate in the voting process. Our system is rigged. Only assholes addicted to money and power are interested in running. Voting for the lesser of the 2 evils? Maybe it's real fun for some, but most people get sick of that.

For those more neutral or red states, yeah, democrats not voting probably will end up with crazy Republicans winning. But I still would blame the democrats for fucking themselves over rather blame the election results on the low voter turnout. Where's the hope? Where is the change? You don't do your part and expect your constituents to support you?

Yeah, things are definitely not as bad as before, but I'm just disappointed to not see any meaningful reforms for the past 6 years. Next 2 years, Obama would just be a sitting duck able to do even less... Things will be pretty much business as usual on capito hill.

Produce results, then perhaps more people will turn out to vote for you. If you guys are just bickering and getting nothing done, expect low turn out and maybe even some shellacking.

[overpowered]

The gay republican is also a tea party guy, which is a problem.

[MR2 Fan]

I still don't understand what Republicans running for office actually stand FOR, all I ever see is what they are standing AGAINST

[thesameguy]

I think OP's graphic largely summed it up.

But, really, there only thing anybody stands for anymore is corporate interest. I'm increasingly convinced voting with a ballot doesn't mean shit. Doesn't matter what the people say if Comcast wants to do away with net neutrality or AT&T wants their collusion and price fixing ignored. They have hundreds of millions of dollars, and that means a lot more than hundreds of millions of votes.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Again, I don't think the graphic is correct. Those are the words of US corporations. Low voter turn out is proof that people are exercising their right to remain silent because they know their voice won't be heard.

Or perhaps I'm interpreting that cartoon incorrectly..., the politicians with the money are simply pretending to hear those things from the voters?

[thesameguy]

I think the point of the cartoon is that because nobody voted, they are implicitly agreeing with corporate interests. Of course, it assumes that voting Democrat would really change anything. Mitigate, maybe, but change - no way.

[overpowered]

https://scontent-b-dfw.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/10390030_988356114524369_2778359088310843376_n.jpg ?oh=3cd643c811889dedbe05b34addbc1cec&oe=54EECD6E

[neanderthal]

Yeah, I didn't bother voting. It's not like Republicans have any chance at my district anyway. ;)

Yes, there are Obama haters and they'll hate Obama no matter what. However, try looking at Obama from a more neutral perspective and just how well has he done over the past years... I don't know. ACA is a nice and noble idea, but still poorly implemented. Now, don't get me wrong, if I can go back in time, I still won't vote for Romney. Just saying President's low rating is a reflection of his job performance. We were hopeful, but he failed to deliver real change. Not sure what else can he do now that he has completely lost congress.

Further, the previous democratically controlled senate really hasn't been doing much either. What do they have to show for? Both sides are just so very busy in blocking each other and they really have no real accomplishments that they can show the voters.

I wouldn't be surprised that the disgruntled voters swing again and vote the other side to show their displeasure few years down the road... but reality is regardless of which party is in charge, status quo remains. Polarization also remains.

Anyway, our founding fathers probably anticipated this... this is why our government was designed to have these check and balances so that gridlocks take place. This kind of slow death is definitely more favorable than having some charismatic leader charging us off a cliff!

Lastly, I have to disagree with that cartoon OP posted..., I don't think the voters are really that stupid or crazy to vote Republicans..., like I said, when you do your job poorly, you'd certainly not end up energizing your base. If you do your job well, and voters still vote you out of office, then they're crazy and stupid. For now, democrats have only themselves to blame.

I love when people throw out this chestnut.

Please expound.

Obama has seriously fucked up where it comes to the banks and securities industries who destroyed the economy. That's his cross to bear. And it pisses me off to no end.
I'm not happy about drones, but fuck, i'm less happy about boots on the ground over there, wherever there is.
NSA wiretapping, not happy there either.

But yeah, otherwise, please list his fuck ups.
And for fucks sakes don't say he could have worked with Congress better. The Republicans made it their raison de entre to "make him a one term President" and when they failed, they continued to do everything in their power to block, obstruct, deny, stop, halt, impede, etc everything he tried to do. So blame him for what HE has done, not what others have done.

So,... waiting.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Too bad we rarely ever get an independent candidate who doesn't turn too much to the left nor right. Better yet, we should have the option to vote for none of the above in order to send the message. Vacant congress should be better a dysfunctional one. Same for the White House too of course. Why waste tax money paying the lessor of the 2 evils doing a bullshit job?

Something's gotta be done to give the people more voice and less influenced by money...

[Crazed_Insanity]

Nea, just wondering considering the list of fuck ups you listed, what exactly is your approval rating of Obama?

Personally, I wasn't expecting Obama to do the things you yourself listed. Those are enough for me to give him less than 50% rating.

But like I said, I still wouldn't vote for Romney.

[thesameguy]

Obama has seriously fucked up where it comes to the banks and securities industries who destroyed the economy. That's his cross to bear. And it pisses me off to no end. I'm not happy about drones, but fuck, i'm less happy about boots on the ground over there, wherever there is. NSA wiretapping, not happy there either

Are these things not enough to not like the guy?

Not saying I do or don't, but these are some pretty serious issues. Failing to hold corporate America responsible for their fuckups sucks and treating American citizens like criminals sucks worse. He did some pretty nasty shit that feels like downright betrayal after pre-election posturing he did. Could we have done worse? Yep. Have we? Yep. But letting Obama off the hook for this stuff because he was less evil is just the same old bullshit - don't pretend that it isn't.

He's got two years to improve ACA (it's not bad, really, but still lacking), make some inroads into the growing economic inequality issues, deliver on same solid environmental policy, and do something about the PATRIOT bullshit. Something.

I don't think Obama has been a bad president, but a good one? Not by a long sight. Maybe it's just my disappointment coloring my opinion, but I expected a lot more from this guy.

[overpowered]

Obama has seriously fucked up where it comes to the banks and securities industries who destroyed the economy.Erm, that debacle started and was most of the way through happening before he took office. The bank bailout was approved before he took office. How are you pinning that one on him?

I agree on the NSA and drones. Still not sure about boots on the ground (and it's just training at this point).

I'm pissed about him signing the renewal of the PATRIOT Act. While it's true that the Senate had enough votes for a veto override, the House did not (though not by a lot).

I'm a little annoyed about Gitmo too, though it's a minor issue as far as I'm concerned.

[Crazed_Insanity]

The fact that no economic reform took place to prevent the same shit from happening again can be pinned on Obama.

[overpowered]

He would have to convince congress to do it -- the same congress that says no to almost everything he's ever proposed.

[neanderthal]

Are these things not enough to not like the guy?

Not saying I do or don't, but these are some pretty serious issues. Failing to hold corporate America responsible for their fuckups sucks and treating American citizens like criminals sucks worse. He did some pretty nasty shit that feels like downright betrayal after pre-election posturing he did. Could we have done worse? Yep. Have we? Yep. But letting Obama off the hook for this stuff because he was less evil is just the same old bullshit - don't pretend that it isn't.

He's got two years to improve ACA (it's not bad, really, but still lacking), make some inroads into the growing economic inequality issues, deliver on same solid environmental policy, and do something about the PATRIOT bullshit. Something.

I don't think Obama has been a bad president, but a good one? Not by a long sight. Maybe it's just my disappointment coloring my opinion, but I expected a lot more from this guy.

Well, I don't completely disagree with you on that. His lack of meaningful legislation with real bite on this is his failing. But, then again, I stated that. And I am NOT letting him off the hook for that. I don't like the extension of the Patriot Act either, and I don't think the NSA spying thing is his best effort. But those are not his programs, those are programs that were already in place.

However, if we are to look at everything, all the mud that has been slung his way, most of it is absolute bullshit. In fact, it's unicorn shit. And, unfortunately, the message that he is a "bad president" has permeated because it has been oft repeated by the Republicans, whose own record during his tenure is, at best, abominable. But, of all the Presidents in our lifetime, in fact, almost in American history, he is, in my estimation, one of the best:
He inherited a super fucked up economy.
He inherited two wars.
He was labelled "soft on terror" because he stated that diplomacy would be his first option.
He then subsequently got OBL.
And a shit ton of other AQ leadership.
Ended the use of torture as an acceptable interrogation technique.
He defused an escalation of talking shit with Iran.
Disposed of their chemical weapons.
Didn't get us mired in Syria.
Or Egypt.
Or everything else in the rebellions that took place across the Middle East.
Increased VA spending and money for new facilities.
Gays. A complete pivot.
Smaller defense budget. Including...
Cancelling the way over budget F22 program.
Lily Ledbetter/ Equal Pay Act.
Obamacare and Dodd / Frank were both passed, but butchered in the House.
The Stimulus.
Saving Chrysler and GM when Mittens wanted them bankrupted. Essentially saved the US auto industry, although that's a tiny bit of a stretch.
Tighter EPA and sustainability requirements.
Higher EPA standards.
Stem Cell Research.
Gulf Oil spill, and Hurricane Sandy. Compare to Bush...
Focus on education.
Did I mention he inherited a super fucked up economy?!?!?!?! I mean really messed.
I could go on and on.

I'm not saying this guy is a saint, but he is not the abject failure or "disappointment" people paint him to be. Especially when you look at where we started, and where we are, where we aren't, and most importantly when you factor in the WORST. CONGRESS. EVER. For all their talk about his failings the Republicans claims are full of hot air, Benghazi, Fast and Furious, IRSgate etc, mostly fiction and majorly trumped up. The metaphorical tilting at windmills or crying wolf.

His biggest failing; undoubtedly his inability to do something about the banks and corps.
Number two, trying too hard to compromise with the Republicans. (IMO.) he has led admirably. he has governed well, and done his best with a recalcitrant Congress. But that's on them, not him.

If he is indeed this big failure that people paint him to be, then I want to know what their expectations were. So spill.

[neanderthal]

The fact that no economic reform took place to prevent the same shit from happening again can be pinned on Obama.

You do know that he can't just write law and have it happen, right? That the House of Representatives and even the Supreme Court have a bearing on the passing of laws?


He would have to convince congress to do it -- the same congress that says no to almost everything he's ever proposed.

And this is what everybody forgets, or conveniently overlooks.
Including, a jobs bill. Sitting on Boenhers desk for three years (?) now.
including, an infrastructure bill.

Or they pass watered down versions like Dodd/ Frank and even Obamacare.

[thesameguy]

he is not the abject failure or "disappointment" people paint him to be.

Agree that he is not even remotely a failure - he has been a very reasonable president as compared to the last forty or fifty years of presidents. But considering all that could have been done, and what should have been done, he is disappointing. Perhaps, at it's core, it's because he has failed to be a leader and has largely taken the path of least resistance in most efforts. I understand the limitations of the position, I understand the obstacles he faced (a bullshit Congress being high on that list). But aside from ACA I can't really name much where he stood up and said "This is how it should be, and this is what I am going to do about it." If ACA is his legacy, it's not a bad one to leave behind. But I did expect more, and not having it thus far is disappointing.

[thesameguy]

I feel like I should be clear and say I am Very Afraid of Republicans, and very happy we got Obama.

[neanderthal]

Agree that he is not even remotely a failure - he has been a very reasonable president as compared to the last forty or fifty years of presidents. But considering all that could have been done, and what should have been done, he is disappointing. Perhaps, at it's core, it's because he has failed to be a leader and has largely taken the path of least resistance in most efforts. I understand the limitations of the position, I understand the obstacles he faced (a bullshit Congress being high on that list). But aside from ACA I can't really name much where he stood up and said "This is how it should be, and this is what I am going to do about it." If ACA is his legacy, it's not a bad one to leave behind. But I did expect more, and not having it thus far is disappointing.

Then we are off a like mind. He could have done so much more, but, mostly because of his shitty Congress, he just did ok (or, very well if you consider the economy before he took over.)

[neanderthal]

I feel like I should be clear and say I am Very Afraid of Republicans, and very happy we got Obama.

I'm not that afraid of them. i'm afraid more of the people who keep voting for them....

[Crazed_Insanity]

You do know that he can't just write law and have it happen, right? That the House of Representatives and even the Supreme Court have a bearing on the passing of laws?



And this is what everybody forgets, or conveniently overlooks.
Including, a jobs bill. Sitting on Boenhers desk for three years (?) now.
including, an infrastructure bill.

Or they pass watered down versions like Dodd/ Frank and even Obamacare.

As far as I can recall, he didn't even try or make any of his influences on congress.

Anyway, it's always difficult to judge a president fairly at the time. Low approval rating doesn't always make someone a bad president. Lincoln wasn't very popular. So...

My main issue with Obama is that republicans never offered me any hope, but my hope was dashed. Yes we can? No, I don't think we can. Change? Nope. Status quo. Yeah, it's convenient to blame it all on the republicans, but it's no wonder voters stopped voting. Why bother?

[thesameguy]

Corprat 'murica.

[neanderthal]

As far as I can recall, he didn't even try or make any of his influences on congress.

Anyway, it's always difficult to judge a president fairly at the time. Low approval rating doesn't always make someone a bad president. Lincoln wasn't very popular. So...

My main issue with Obama is that republicans never offered me any hope, but my hope was dashed. Yes we can? No, I don't think we can. Change? Nope. Status quo. Yeah, it's convenient to blame it all on the republicans, but it's no wonder voters stopped voting. Why bother?

Your hopes were dashed by the Republicans. Obama has done what he could. he had even amended some of his positions and proposals in order to accomodate the Republicans and reach some sort of compromise, only to be turned back.

Try to focus on who the real bad guy here. If Jason and I are being paid to play tennis for you, and I refuse to participate by saying his clothes are too bright, he's hitting the ball too hard, he's hitting the ball to far, he hasn't used organic string in his racquet etc etc etc, do you blame Jason if he is playing competitive tennis?

The President has a job to do. Those are HIS Presidential duties.
Congress has a job to do. Those are their CONGRESSIONAL duties.
When a Bill sits on Boenhers desk for years, signed by the President, but NOT BROUGHT TO A VOTE AT THE CONGRESS, that's not a Presidential failing.

And oddly enough despite the hue and cry about his popularity, his numbers are higher at their lowest than any other President at their lowest.


Harry Truman 22%
Eisenhower 48%
Kennedy 56%
Johnson 35%
Nixon 24%
Ford 37%
Carter 28%
Reagan 35%
George H.W. Bush 29%
Clinton 37%
George W. Bush 25%


Read for yourself. (http://www.addictinginfo.org/2014/11/01/big-lie-medias-telling-about-obamas-approval-rating/)

[FaultyMario]

You cut Obama way too much slack Mo.

[neanderthal]

You might think so.

I, however, choose to blame him for HIS failings, not the failings of those he is supposed to work with.

[MR2 Fan]

Let's not forget that when he does try to bypass the do-nothing congress with executive orders (which many presidents have used dozens or hundreds more times than he has) they claim it's an abuse of power, he's doing it illegally and they threaten impeachment.

He really is in a no-win situation and now it will be even worse...IMO this country is screwed unless people start realizing what's really going on and stop listening to the sensationalist "news" media

[Crazed_Insanity]

I believe people HAVE realized this, and the sensational news could only fan the nutcase voters into believing that their votes can make any difference.

Anyway, I'm disappointed at Obama's job performance. Of course I'm just an outsider judging him based on what I know, perhaps history will prove me wrong. For now, I just don't think things changed much nor do I believe in the 'yes we can' BS. Yeah, I suppose one could blame the failures on the republicans, but consider this, had Lincoln failed to keep the states united, would he still be considered as one of the great?

Right now the state of our union is poor. Yes, it's not entirely Obama's fault, but I still think he failed to deliver his promises.

Again, let me reiterate that if I can go back in time to vote again, I still won't vote for Romney.

[overpowered]

The last president who issued fewer executive orders per time in office than Obama was Grover Cleveland, in the 1800's.

This site updates the info on the 20th of every month, so it's current to October 20, 2014:

http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/data/orders.php

[neanderthal]

I believe people HAVE realized this, and the sensational news could only fan the nutcase voters into believing that their votes can make any difference.

Anyway, I'm disappointed at Obama's job performance. Of course I'm just an outsider judging him based on what I know, perhaps history will prove me wrong. For now, I just don't think things changed much nor do I believe in the 'yes we can' BS. Yeah, I suppose one could blame the failures on the republicans, but consider this, had Lincoln failed to keep the states united, would he still be considered as one of the great?

Right now the state of our union is poor. Yes, it's not entirely Obama's fault, but I still think he failed to deliver his promises.

Again, let me reiterate that if I can go back in time to vote again, I still won't vote for Romney.

Sigh.

55 months of private sector job increases. With the Worst. Congress. Evah!

This is what i'm saying. You keep repeating/ saying/ focusing on what "they" want you to think, what they have been programming into everybody's mind with mindless, endless repetition.
These are not large government projects like building the Eisenhower Dam. These are private sector job increases, small and large. And bear in mind, all with the WORST. CONGRESS. EVER.

So, while Mario reckons i'm giving Obama too much credit, you can see that my efforts aren't so much masking what he hasn't done but revealing what he has done because people everywhere keep repeating the Faux News/ Republican talking points like "his popularity is plummeting." Or his job record sucks. October 7 Fox had headline saying just that.

Never mind the 55 consecutive months of job creation.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I'm not complaining about jobs, l'd have no problems with him if unemployment were still high and if he didn't do any of the fuck ups that you mentioned.

About the only thing that he does better than W is that at least he's more presentable and doesn't look stupid. W probably won't go for ACA, other than these thing, I really didn't see too much difference between a supposedly democrat and a republican.

Do you think those Arabs who hate us have a more favorable view of the US? I not just talking about those crazy extremists.

So job creation is okay... Considering the shithole we fell into... Can't complain there. But are you willing to give republican congress some credit too? IMHO, I don't think they have much direct control... How many low wage jobs are created.

Like I said, just take a look at your own fuck up list for Obama, those are enough for me to be disappointed without involving the stupid republicans. If you think his accomplishments more than made up those shortcomings, you're certainly entitled to your opinion.

[21Kid]

Save your time Mo. Billi never has a coherent comment/argument. He just rehashes the same stuff over and over. Or changes completely what he's saying, pretending like it's what he meant all along. He doesn't actually think about what he's typing.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I kinda doubt discussions of politics, like religion, can ever be truly rational. You guys can pretend that you're Vulcans or computers and not human beings if you want... :p

Anyway, I think we're looking at the same thing and just coming up with different conclusions just as an optimist and pessimist looking at half glass of water.

Worldwide, confidence in Obama is dropping steadily over the years, although still relatively high. I'm just more pissed at Obama's failings that caused the drops, but Nea is still having high confidence in him. We're both correct, just that we're focus on different aspect of the issue. (This is according to Pew research's #s. http://www.pewglobal.org/2013/07/18/chapter-2-global-opinion-of-barack-obama/. World wide confidence in Obama dropping every year, yet, still fairly high...)

Were his failings caused by the Republicans or the likes of Edward Snowden? If it weren't for them, Obama could perhaps result in increase in popularity worldwide? Maybe. But that'd just be a facade. I really don't understand why Obama would carry out pretty much the same foreign policies as W... was he pressured into it by some classified reasons that we just don't have the privilege to know... or was he simply enjoying his new found power? Or perhaps the Republican party was really that powerful that there's just nothing that he could do? I particularly dislike the fact that White House isn't that much more transparent under his administration compared to W's.

Like I said over and over again, my confidence for Obama is still high enough that I'd vote for him over Romney any time, but I'm just disappointed to see his popularity dip over the years. Pew's data stops at 2013. I don't foresee Obama's popularity rising in the next couple of years. If the Republicans were powerful enough to derail him in the past, Obama will only get derailed further in the future.

I'm just saddened to finally realize that "no we can't." I guess I shouldn't judge a sitting president. Let's just let history judge him down the road...

Good thing I still believe in a God who's in ultimate control of it all.

To end on a more positive note, Obama finally just came out to endorse net neutrality. Jason was promoting a petition to the white house on this particular subject on the very 1st page of this thread back in January. So that's good. However, it boggles the mind why this took so long? Shouldn't it be a no brainer? Was he seriously pondering endorsing the other side? Anyway, sorry to turn negative on him again... :p

[overpowered]

From Ferguson:

https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/9467_10152286852686653_1901851563764291652_n.jpg?o h=7f132666fc7a02b965e14d5441244ef6&oe=54F06B85&__gda__=1424687623_040b23cfc8a51263aed54e3196ffa1f 4

[LHutton]

1914 is best dressed. Levi 501.

[neanderthal]

Save your time Mo. Billi never has a coherent comment/argument. He just rehashes the same stuff over and over. Or changes completely what he's saying, pretending like it's what he meant all along. He doesn't actually think about what he's typing.

I like to give the benefit of the doubt, but after the word salad he posted right after your post, I gave up.
Again!

[neanderthal]

I kinda doubt discussions of politics, like religion, can ever be truly rational. You guys can pretend that you're Vulcans or computers and not human beings if you want... :p

Anyway, I think we're looking at the same thing and just coming up with different conclusions just as an optimist and pessimist looking at half glass of water.

Worldwide, confidence in Obama is dropping steadily over the years, although still relatively high. I'm just more pissed at Obama's failings that caused the drops, but Nea is still having high confidence in him. We're both correct, just that we're focus on different aspect of the issue. (This is according to Pew research's #s. http://www.pewglobal.org/2013/07/18/chapter-2-global-opinion-of-barack-obama/. World wide confidence in Obama dropping every year, yet, still fairly high...)

Were his failings caused by the Republicans or the likes of Edward Snowden? If it weren't for them, Obama could perhaps result in increase in popularity worldwide? Maybe. But that'd just be a facade. I really don't understand why Obama would carry out pretty much the same foreign policies as W... was he pressured into it by some classified reasons that we just don't have the privilege to know... or was he simply enjoying his new found power? Or perhaps the Republican party was really that powerful that there's just nothing that he could do? I particularly dislike the fact that White House isn't that much more transparent under his administration compared to W's.

Like I said over and over again, my confidence for Obama is still high enough that I'd vote for him over Romney any time, but I'm just disappointed to see his popularity dip over the years. Pew's data stops at 2013. I don't foresee Obama's popularity rising in the next couple of years. If the Republicans were powerful enough to derail him in the past, Obama will only get derailed further in the future.

I'm just saddened to finally realize that "no we can't." I guess I shouldn't judge a sitting president. Let's just let history judge him down the road...

Good thing I still believe in a God who's in ultimate control of it all.

To end on a more positive note, Obama finally just came out to endorse net neutrality. Jason was promoting a petition to the white house on this particular subject on the very 1st page of this thread back in January. So that's good. However, it boggles the mind why this took so long? Shouldn't it be a no brainer? Was he seriously pondering endorsing the other side? Anyway, sorry to turn negative on him again... :p

You really don't understand how the government in this country works. I give up.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I don't understand a lot of things. I also don't understand why you need to quote my entire word salad with one sentence in bold and not addressing to it? If you're going to give up, then give up dude. Why doing a half ass job? ;)

Let's leave the Republicans out of the discussion and examine only Obama.




Obama has seriously fucked up where it comes to the banks and securities industries who destroyed the economy. That's his cross to bear. And it pisses me off to no end.
I'm not happy about drones, but fuck, i'm less happy about boots on the ground over there, wherever there is.
NSA wiretapping, not happy there either.


You don't think the fuck ups you listed are serious enough?

I know you don't think he's a saint, but I hope you also understand that I don't think he's the devil either.

However, to me, the fuck ups you listed are enough for me to lose faith in him. He is suppose to change things.

[FaultyMario]

From Ferguson:

https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/9467_10152286852686653_1901851563764291652_n.jpg?o h=7f132666fc7a02b965e14d5441244ef6&oe=54F06B85&__gda__=1424687623_040b23cfc8a51263aed54e3196ffa1f 4


HAWT!

[FaultyMario]

The last president who issued fewer executive orders per time in office than Obama was Grover Cleveland, in the 1800's.

This site updates the info on the 20th of every month, so it's current to October 20, 2014:

http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/data/orders.php

Interestingly, for an executive involved in TWO wars simultaneously, Dubya issued comparatively few XOs.

Must have been the leaner guvmint approach. Or he just spent way too much time in Crawford to have a fucking clue whatsoever.

[mk]

I think the bigger issue now is who's next and what she'll do.
And with what kind of congress.