Politics

[speedpimp]

Is that guy representative of his constituents?

I mean, we can make fun of him all we want, but that was clearly a trope directed not at the person he was having the conversation with but rather it was directed towards an audience who'd only get to watch bits and pieces of his intervention.

It'd be interesting to know what the ratings of Fox, Breitbart and the Washington Examiner in his district are.

His district is the Kentucky suburbs of Cincinnati, so it's a safe bet that those three are very popular.

[Tom Servo]

Apparently the grand jury doesn't need her testimony, they have enough arguments to charge Assange already (https://gizmodo.com/assange-charges-finally-reveal-why-chelsea-manning-is-s-1833972958).

That quote is from her support committee, so I don't know how much credence I give it. It's entirely possible that prosecutors hoped to get additional evidence that might bolster the indictment or lead to other charges. And if it were "duplicative", why not just testify again?

Again - it is not up to the person subpoenaed to determine whether the subpoena is worth pursing. A grand jury subpoenas you and you either get out of it via one of the legal methods of doing so or you go testify. It's basically our system of government in a nutshell. You can't just say "I don't believe in this and I already told you the answer to everything you're going to ask", it just does not work that way, and it cannot possibly work that way if you want to have this kind of justice system.

[21Kid]

Okay, we may have a new leader in the "dumbest shit said in Congress" race:

[crazy ass Republican questioning video]

"If it's called a BACHELOR'S DEGREE, then how are you MARRIED, sir?"


And that kids is why Democrats lose elections.
http://thememesfactory.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/1911887_472121082913705_1194146690_n1.jpg

[Crazed_Insanity]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-laguna-beach-police-cars-american-flag-20190413-story.html%3FoutputType%3Damp

It’s fascinating that some people now find US flag on cop cars offensive...

How political will we get...

[JoshInKC]

they cannot see through their current biases to realize that a police vehicle with the American flag is the ultimate American expression,” she said.
A cop car with a flag on it is the ultimate american expression?
That's f*cking gross.
Beyond that sentiment - the graphic design is also gross.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Well, there’s really no need to have a nation’s flag on cop cars. It’s not like our neighborhoods have Mexican and Canadian cops that might cause confusion...

OTOH, I don’t understand how US flag can be gross.

US government for sure has done evils around the world, but unless we really want to give up and overthrow this regime, I hope US flag won’t eventually become as offensive as swastica or confederate flag...

[Tom Servo]

Was recently informed about the death of @NipseyHussle and I was saddened to hear about his death and the other 10 people killed in Los Angeles last week. How can one take someone's life so easily? 'Baby Don't Cry Gotta Keep Your Head Up Even when The Road is Hard Never Give Up'


Well, that was unexpected. And no, I am not making this up: https://twitter.com/Ahmadinejad1956/status/1117500093375090688

[FaultyMario]

Dude, the universal language is not Maths; It's beats.

[JoshInKC]

OTOH, I don’t understand how US flag can be gross.

US government for sure has done evils around the world, but unless we really want to give up and overthrow this regime, I hope US flag won’t eventually become as offensive as swastica or confederate flag...

To be clear, I wasn't saying that the US flag is gross, I was saying that the quoted sentiment about it being applied to a cop car as the "ultimate american expression" is gross.
And the flag can definitely be gross- See innumerable examples of stickers applied to tailgates of lifted pickups, or on the t-shirts of many gunshow attendees.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Wow, Ahmadinejad really cares about us angelenos..., I’m touched.

[Crazed_Insanity]

To be clear, I wasn't saying that the US flag is gross, I was saying that the quoted sentiment about it being applied to a cop car as the "ultimate american expression" is gross.
And the flag can definitely be gross- See innumerable examples of stickers applied to tailgates of lifted pickups, or on the t-shirts of many gunshow attendees.

I get it. Just like there are a lot of gross Christian assholes, and then eventually Jesus ends up as a gross asshole too...

That’s just sad.

America is greater than Trump and his supporters. They only make up to less that half of US population!

Seriously, we ban their confederate flag, now they take over our national flag..., now we need to ban our national flag?

Anyway, not trying to take any sides here, just thought our political polarization is making everyone nuts. That we now can find issues with display of our nations flag... don’t get me wrong, I get it, the need to stick our flag everywhere is a disease too.

[Tom Servo]

It is funny how differently I see the American flag vs. other flags. Not the flag itself, but at least where I grew up and where I am now if you see someone flying a flag at their house or with flag stickers on their car, it generally means that it's the kind of person who uses their patriotism like a cudgel. When I've traveled, there are some countries where it's very common to fly their flag and doesn't seem to have that same connotation. Here, I'm kinda shocked if it's being flown at a house and doesn't have a Gadsden flag alongside it.

[drew]

Just north of here in GA on 95, there is a huge ranch that has three gigantic flagpoles about 80' high. Center: US flag, on either side, the battle flag.


4th of July 2015, we saw two youths on the highway, passenger hanging out the truck with the battle flag. On the 4th of July...

[FaultyMario]

Foreign Affairs:

"As part of a post-Trump reinvention of diplomacy, then, the State Department ought to place a new emphasis on the craft, rediscovering diplomatic history, sharpening negotiation skills, and making the lessons of negotiations—both successful and unsuccessful—accessible to practitioners. (https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/2019-03-27/lost-art-american-diplomacy)"

[sandydandy]

Every now and then I visit Breitbart. When I’m feeling overly smart and need to dumb down. Usually during a major news event. Yesterday it was the Notre Dame Cathedral fire. Didn’t actually bother reading any articles, (I never do), just the user comments. Everyone and their mothers there are convinced it was a Muslim attack. It’s laughabe how these little Alex Jones wannabes base their conclusions on zero evidence. That’s the (Western) world we live in now. :|

[Crazed_Insanity]

People do tend to like to jump to conclusions. Sometimes it works, sometimes not. Take the Boeing 737Max planes for example. The rest of the world grounded the planes not basing on actual data, FAA and Boeing chose to only act until real data is more apparent... and now it looks like FAA and Boeing are too cozy and not putting safety 1st...

Western world is split and falling. By faith? By Brexit? By Trump?

I don't know.

Maybe every once in a while, things just get burned down and crash... and it's always easier to just blame folks on the "other side".

With regard to stupid comments, this one I saw was particularly funny to me: "The cathedral survived the French revolution, but couldn't survive French renovation!"

[sandydandy]

That line is funny.

[FaultyMario]

Alan García, Ex-President of Peru, dies to gunshot wounds in a Lima hospital hours after shooting himself to try to evade arrest over Odebrecht bribery probe.


Ouch.

[Rikadyn]

If only all corrupt politicians follow his example and kill themselves. ��

[Crazed_Insanity]

Well, looks like Mueller Report won't really help us much to get rid of Trump.

Hope the Democratic establishment and voters will finally get behind this man.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZMzI1ACUNU

Or find somebody brave enough to go on FOX and then win over FOX audiences.

I hope someday Bernie will do another one on FOX in a deeper much more red state just to see how the audiences will respond. I think it's clear people of Pennsylvania have realized their mistake of going for Trump. People in deep red states probably will still favor the president no matter what... Plus, considering how well crazy Bernie did, FOX probably won't dare have another townhall meeting with him.

[Leon]

I cynically suggest nothing will get rid of Trump.

There isn't the testicular fortitude to make it happen, and people who don't have the will are going to wait for the next election to oust him.

What I sincerely hope, is that the gutless politicians who stood with Trump, are remembered by history, and vilified.

[FaultyMario]

This is the best debate I've seen about the redacted Mueller report: Glenn Greenwald vs. David Cay Johnston (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6yLx_wDq1Wo).

[Tom Servo]

I might watch it, but I have to admit anything with Glenn Greenwald I assume will not be a good debate.

[Tom Servo]

FWIW, I thought the rundown of it on Friday Morning's "The Daily" (the NY Times podcast) was a pretty good summary of the report.

[FaultyMario]

There was a good synopsis somewhere else, "Trump is above the law but he is not above lawmakers", i guess that drives home the point that the U.S. is being held hostage by bipartisan politics, which is in turn held in check by money.

The game was flawed and some* have found a way to rig it, it needs to be redesigned in order to serve the people or else we're all fucked; we can't have the whole planet be a revenue machine for those (very few individuals) who have already have won at money-making.


(I'd say it coincides with neoliberal political economy which has shown is just radical fanaticism of the market-god).

[Crazed_Insanity]

Can’t disagree with your assessment.

Forget US for a minute, take a look at France. There’s motivation to save the planet, plenty of money to save Notre Dame, but just not enough resources for the lower middle class... another revolution coming?

But of course we also don’t want communism/socialism that only cater to the poor and screws the rich... so hopefully we can come to a system that’s more fair and balanced for everybody smoothly...

I think pretty much every major western nation is suffering the same problem. Had we elected Hillary, we’d be like France; however, now we’re more like Britain. Either way, it ain’t good for any kind of union.

[FaultyMario]

Radical capitalism is not good for society.

It wouldn't pass the Kaldor-Hicks compensation test.

[Tom Servo]

I'm trying to think of a government, communist or otherwise, that has ever only catered to the poor and screwed the rich.

[FaultyMario]

I don't think such thing can exist, given the amount of tools the rich have at their disposition to play the game.

The election of the Amoral POTUS really makes it necessary for congress to act in a moral way, they judiciary has, and it has stopped some of the worst trumpian policies. The 116th US Congress really hast to take a hard look in the mirror and come to terms with themselves if they want to move (narrow) executive power away from the utilitarianism it has been moving towards in the last 50 years, though it certainly accelerated with Trump.

I found this discussion (https://repository.law.umich.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2512&context=mlr) interesting.


A simple model of a contract between an individual moralist and a sophisticated Holmesian illustrates the potential for unfair and distributionally problematic results. Suppose the seller in the snow-plowing scenario is a Holmesian breacher business, and thus it will breach its contracts whenever it is efficient to do so. We can further assume that the seller breaches efficiently but not opportunistically and will pay its liability for expectation damages willingly and without litigation. Suppose further that the buyer is an individual moralist, and so she will not willingly breach her contracts in any circumstances. If the Holmesian seller’s car breaks and emergency repairs would cost $100, the seller will breach. By breaching, the Holmesian seller has improved its welfare (via avoiding a loss) by $93. The same result holds if the Holmesian seller breaches to take a better opportunity rather than to avoid an unexpected cost. Suppose that a new buyer offers the Holmesian seller $30 to plow his driveway, and the seller has time to plow only one of the two driveways. The Holmesian seller would breach its contract with the original buyer, pay expectation damages to the original buyer for a loss of$5, and plow the new buyer’s driveway for a total gain of $17 ($30 less the $5 in expectation damages and the $8 value of his time and labor). By breaching, the Holmesian seller is thus $15 better off than it would have been had it performed its original contract. In either case, the Holmesian seller has increased its welfare by breaching.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Russia, China, Vietnam, Korea, Germany... need I go on?

Those communist regimes protected those in power(and got rich that way). If you are not part of that regime, your money will be taken from you. But of course the money taken from you still won’t really go to the poor. End result is everybody ends up poor.

China realized the error of radical communism; therefore, tried to inject some capitalism in order to get China to finally move forward. Otherwise, it’ll simply remain as another North Korea.

Of course the errror of the western world is that we are going too extreme with capitalism.

American rich has no problems with socialism when it comes to bailing out the rich bankers. French also has no problem bailing out a temple of God that they don’t even really believe in anymore...

Anyway, reality is that socialism is necessary sometimes whenever we need a little help, whether if it’s health issue or temporary job lost... assistance can’t go on forever. Capitalism is also necessary in order to make progress that can be beneficial to almost everyone. There will never be complete equality unless if we simply reduce everyone down to nothing...

So I think China is trying to strike that balance between capitalism and socialism, but unfortunately is you stick a dictator in there, sooner or later he’ll fuck everything up.

[FaultyMario]

Even Guevara himself said it, neither the USSR nor China were communist countries!!

[Tom Servo]

Wait, did you just list out a bunch of regimes and then *immediately* follow that up with saying that what they did is not what you described?

[FaultyMario]

What, me?

[Crazed_Insanity]

I’m sure Tom’s referring to me!

Anyway, yes, China/Russia are not pure communists just as we Americans are not pure capitalists either.

[Tom Servo]

Yeah, was referring to Billi. Listed a bunch of regimes as those that catered only to the poor and screwed the rich, then immediately followed that up by describing something entirely different that, at best, did not in any way cater to the poor. Sorry, crossed conversations there.

[Crazed_Insanity]

They certainly catered to the poor in the beginning and that’s how they were able to mobilize them during the revolution. I’m sure communist regimes also do continue to pay them some thing post revolutions. Communists really do ‘cater’ to the poor, it’s just that this ‘equality’ resulted in everyone being poor and only the rulers end up rich.

Extremism isn’t at the purest form yet, but bad enough already. We have no pure communism nor pure capitalism thus far, but either extremes are bad enough already.

If you want to make the case that we haven’t been able to truly practice communism yet, you could be right. Maybe the Scandinavian countries can really show the world how it’s done...

But I’m still skeptical for now.

I’d like to see Nokia remain relevant and Volvo not being chinese owned and their socialized medicine not relying on advancements made in the US.

[MR2 Fan]

so right-wingers and evangelicals are falling all over themselves on twitter to act triggered (those snowflakes!) by Hillary and Obama referring to the people in Sri Lanka as Easter Worshippers instead of Christians. They're like "we don't worship Easter"...:smh: Ok, they were worshiping DURING Easter.

Hillary said an important weekend for different religions and she's correct since Passover was also this weekend.

[Tom Servo]

I'm happy that that level of internet spazzing hasn't reached me yet.

[MR2 Fan]

I'm happy that that level of internet spazzing hasn't reached me yet.

stay away from political trending hashtags on twitter I guess....apparently I love punishment

[Crazed_Insanity]

Really no need to get too worked up about these type of extremists views... a Christian who’d totally blow up by being called an Easter worshiper is probably no Christian at all...

Still, if somebody do find something offensive/uncomfortable, whether its verbal referencing or physical contact, it’s probably not a good idea to insist that I don’t mean any harm by it and just leave it at that in this day and age.

Bernie is still my main guy and if he gets passed over again then my main backup would be Biden. While I totally agree and understand that he’s a touchy feely kinda guy, even some women he has touched defended him, still, not sure he handled that situation very well.

And Mueller report now inadvertently exposed failures of Obama admin regarding Russian meddling... hope. Biden won’t get dinged further...

[George]

To the Democrats:

Running old has-beens for the highest office in the land isn't the way to get independents and undecided voters to come your way.

Give us another Kennedy or Obama. Young(er), with fresh ideas, and without a long history of being disliked or at least voted against by a sizable percentage of the electorate.

[Tom Servo]

I'm liking Warren a lot, if only because she's actually throwing policies out there.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I like Warren too, but I’m kinda worried that she seems easily provoked by political opposition. Such as Trump calling her Pocahontas... baiting her into doing a DNA test... that was really unnecessary and it ended up hurting herself more.

Now she’s also leading candidate calling for impeachment..., I also don’t think that’s necessary. Impeachment really should be initiated by the republicans or just let the voters impeach Trump in 2020. No need to waste political resource on such effort. Even if you succeed in getting rid of a president, you still might end up pissing half of country off and end up becoming another Hillary?

Anyway, I just wish she has a cooler head. Her actions just sometimes seemed unwise.

[drew]

I seriously think Warren has no shot.

[Tom Servo]

This was a good listen - the story about how Don McGahn went from Trump's protector to one of his biggest liabilities. It's about 24 minutes long.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/22/podcasts/the-daily/mcgahn-trump-mueller-report.html

[MR2 Fan]

I seriously think Warren has no shot.

Not that I disagree, but what specifically is the reason?

[FaultyMario]

Did Trump Show Printed-Out Tweets to Jack Dorsey? We Asked Digital Forensics Experts (https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/pajbmy/did-trump-show-printed-out-tweets-to-jack-dorsey-we-asked-digital-forensics-experts)

[drew]

Not that I disagree, but what specifically is the reason?

I just don't see her being "in touch", not that any politician is. I put her in the same bucket as Bernie. It will be a novel attempt, but she'll get nowhere.

[The359]

I think anybody that Trump has quarreled with already will automatically be at a disadvantage, because people will hear his lies and take them as legit reasons without actually researching the person themselves, meaning you wont sway any Trump supporters and dumb voters wont believe the person.

[Rikadyn]

Hillary 2.0 (in the sense he is the establishment choice, Gillibrand is literal Hillary 2.0) joined the race with a fundraising event hosted by the chief lobbyist for Comcast

[Crazed_Insanity]

Gillibrand is not on Trumps radar yet, therefore not worthy of a nickname yet... unlike sleepy Biden, crazy Bernie and Pocahontas.

Pocahontas has definitely been harmed the most... especially now that we know for sure she isn’t one but used it to helped advance her academic career..., not as bad as what Lori Loughlin did, but still not good.

[Rikadyn]

Gillibrand is not on Trumps radar yet

She isn't on anyone's radar and shouldn't be.

[MR2 Fan]

I don't trust anyone who calls themselves Kirsten instead of Kristen

[Crazed_Insanity]

I have no issues with Ms. Dunst.

[Tom Servo]

Kirsten's a pretty common Scandinavian name, fwiw.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I don't trust anyone who calls themselves Kirsten instead of Kristen

Yeah, what specifically is your reason against all Kirstens?

I really don't know Gillibrand enough to have much opinion, but of course if it's the same deep pockets who were supporting Hillary now backing Kirsten, then that would be reason enough for me to not trust her. Another thing that might be an issue for her was that she eats fried chicken with knife and fork. If she doesn't know what finger lickin' good is, not sure if she can really understand what average Americans go thru on a daily basis... Trump the supposed "billionaire" gave the impression that he could connect with average americans better.

Who in our current field of contenders is our next Kennedy, Bill Clinton, Obama? Young, charismatic... (able to connect with your average folks)

I'm willing to let Bernie go if there is such a candidate.

[FaultyMario]

"I just boarded an international @JetBlue flight. Instead of scanning my boarding pass or handing over my passport, I looked into a camera before being allowed down the jet bridge. Did facial recognition replace boarding passes, unbeknownst to me? Did I consent to this? (https://twitter.com/mackenzief/status/1118509708673998848)"



JetBlue Introduces Its First Integrated Biometric Self-Boarding Gate at New York’s John F. Kennedy International Airport (http://mediaroom.jetblue.com/investor-relations/press-releases/2018/11-15-2018-184045420)

[George]

JetBlue Introduces Its First Integrated Biometric Self-Boarding Gate at New York’s John F. Kennedy International Airport (http://mediaroom.jetblue.com/investor-relations/press-releases/2018/11-15-2018-184045420)

"There is no pre-registration required. Customers can simply step up to the camera for a photo match and make their way onto the aircraft."

A photo match to what, I wonder. Do they take your picture or scan the photo on your ID at security and then match it later when you board the plane, or is everyone's photo already in some database?

Scary stuff, if the latter.

[Crazed_Insanity]

According to the comment section, it is the later.

"The information is provided by the United States Department of Homeland Security from existing holdings...these photos aren't provided to us, but are securely transmitted to the Customs and Border Protection database. JetBlue does not have direct access to the photos and doesn’t store them."

More info here: http://mediaroom.jetblue.com/investor-relations/press-releases/2018/11-15-2018-184045420

[Tom Servo]

I'm willing to bet that's part of the requirement to have either a passport or RealID - those photos are probably kept in a database. I know they also took my photo and fingerprints for Global Entry.

[Tom Servo]

Another thing that might be an issue for her was that she eats fried chicken with knife and fork.

Some of us prefer to not be barbarians, tyvm.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Okay, if you truly believe KFC is suppose to be Knife Fork chicken, our founding fathers certainly allowed you such freedom... :p

[FaultyMario]

Scary stuff, if the latter.

This dude ↓ knows.


I'm willing to bet that's part of the requirement to have either a passport or RealID - those photos are probably kept in a database. I know they also took my photo and fingerprints for Global Entry.

[The359]

I agree it's definitely part of the RealID program.

[Tom Servo]

Apropos a previous posting about how companies like Intuit are lining up to get a big with with a bipartisan bill that prevents the IRS from offering its own online filing system, claiming their own free offerings were more than enough - turns out they're also deliberately blocking Google from indexing the pages on their sites that offer free tax filing.

https://www.propublica.org/article/turbotax-deliberately-hides-its-free-file-page-from-search-engines

[Tom Servo]

And, from one of the writer/producers of The Good Place, MY PENIS IS STUCK IN A COLANDER, BUT ALSO I’M A CENTRIST. WE EXIST. (https://meganamram.tumblr.com/post/183218805199/my-penis-is-stuck-in-a-colander-but-also-im-a)

[JoshInKC]

Not just *a* writer of the good place, the writer responsible for pretty much all of the food puns - and therefore, a hero greater than all the 9/11 heroes.

[Rikadyn]

3237

[Tom Servo]

Not just *a* writer of the good place, the writer responsible for pretty much all of the food puns - and therefore, a hero greater than all the 9/11 heroes.

Her list of restaurant pun names is one of the best things I've ever seen on the hellscape that is Twitter. And now for my usual pitch - if you're not aware, there's a Good Place podcast hosted by the guy who plays Sean, Megan Amram is a semi-regular guest on there. Her episode with Jameela Jamil is comedy gold. And now I've basically tried to turn this into the "What are you watching" thread.

[JoshInKC]

"Sushi and the Banshees" pretty much made my decade.

[Tom Servo]

"Camembert-bie, let’s go party" kills me every single time.

[MR2 Fan]

Someone on twitter re-tweeted some guy who just now said he's leaving the Democratic Party and voting for Trump in 2020 because he's sick of what the Democrats are doing, then of course dozens of posts cheering him on.....it's really bothering me, mostly because they're A.) idiots, or complete racists or B.) getting their news from only right-wing propaganda outlets which are turning into a complete false reality, or a combination of both.

Therefore, I decided to make a....brief list...of all of the problems that Trump has, in case I ever decide to share it with someone else (I haven't posted it anywhere other than here yet)


What made you first start liking Trump?


Was it his supposed support of America first while his businesses are not based in America, his current wife, ex-wife and many others were not from America?

Was it his sexual assault accusations from 17 women?

Was it the illegal separation of families looking for legal asylum crossing the border, locking babies in cages and having them die due to lack of proper medical care? The same facilities that ICE has blocked legal representatives time and time again from entering?

Was it his literally calling on Russia to spy on his competitor in the election during a campaign rally?

Was it his daily unhinged rants against everyone and everything, often with lies, misspellings and dangerous rhetoric?

Was it his challenging of allies, threatening to break trade agreements and treaties while also being constantly friendly to authoritarian figures hostile to U.S. interests?

Was it his consistent defense of neo-nazis and racists?

Was it his shutting down of the government costing millions of dollars in revenue for government employees and making airlines and other industries less safe?

Was it his 70% turnover rate of his own employees leaving, after he claimed he had "the best people"?

Was it after many psychology professors, in a situation previously unheard of, where they thought it important to speculate that he has narcissistic personality disorder?

Was it his write-up of his physical that he wrote himself and had some quack doctor approve it?

Was the 17 separate ongoing investigations into him and his family's business dealings?

Was it the lawsuit that confirmed that Trump University was stealing money?

Was it the Access Hollywood tape where he states that he kisses women and grabs them by the p***y without their consent?

Was it the time he admitted he would walk in on the girls changing rooms during the Miss Teen USA pageants (where many are under the age of 18)?

Was it the time he told a pre-teen girl that he'd be dating her in 10 years?

Was it the time stated that his presidency was over in panic when word leaked of his crimes?

Was it the numerous cover-up attempts and pleading the 5th to prevent the truth from coming out?

Was it the Mueller Report that was SO damaging, the American public still doesn't have the full truth because Trump's hand picked attorney general blocked it?

Was it the former lawyer, campaign manager and others going to prison for high crimes?

Was it his sheer disregard for the American CITIZENS in Puerto Rico after the devastating hurricane?

Was it the trillion dollar tax breaks for big businesses that didn't improve employment numbers and while average Americans paid more in taxes?

Was it his bullying of people at his rallies, literally telling people there to beat up people?

Was it the lack of press conferences, a standard means of communication by many presidents in history, and when there is a press conference, it's entirely fabricated lies?

Was it all the times that former aides, friends and followers decided that enough was enough and that he isn't fit to be President?

Was it the massage parlor owner that had been running an illegal sex-trafficking ring that was also close to the Trump family?

Was it when he called the press, the "enemy of the people"?

[Crazed_Insanity]

I seriously don’t know of anyone originally from the left, end up converting to trump camp. Such group exists?

[MR2 Fan]

I seriously don’t know of anyone originally from the left, end up converting to trump camp. Such group exists?

If they watch Fox "News" all the time, I could see it happening. Happens a lot with older people. Like I said, they live in a world where their news basically paints a completely different view of what's happening than reality.

[MR2 Fan]

In other news, Trump had another Rally, because of course he did....NOW he's saying something very dangerous...that women will HAVE a baby delivered with her doctor, then they decide whether to "execute" it or not...JFC!!

I really wish this abortion shit would go away. Too many people don't understand how conception works, and think as soon as you deliver your sperm, BOOM, baby with organs and a brain and thoughts and stuff. That's not how it works!!

Imagine if 98% of scientists agreed on that fact (For early term abortions)....oh wait, no, 98% of scientists doesn't mean jack to the right wing, I forgot

[Crazed_Insanity]

If they watch Fox "News" all the time, I could see it happening. Happens a lot with older people. Like I said, they live in a world where their news basically paints a completely different view of what's happening than reality.

Do you know any democrats who’d watch fox muse all the time?

I read Fox News some times but not all the time and I don’t think I’m ever tempted to become republican...

Anyway, I just think those type of tweets are BS. Hell, I’m frustrated by the Democratic Party, but that has never motivated me to join the other side. To be frank, I have no motivation to register to either side, but I do agree with the dems more.

[The359]

Oh he's been claiming the post-birth execution thing for a while now.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Politics is funny sometimes..., people who are pro-life are against vaccines, affordable healthcare, and gun control. Likewise people who are pro-choice tend to want to limit other people’s choices with more bans or mandates with not only vaccines, healthcare and gun control, but also with smoking and carbon emissions. Of course, these are all the right decisions to make, but forcing people to make the right choice isn’t really pro-choice anymore, right?

[Freude am Fahren]

Well, many of those "choices" affect other people, so no, you shouldn't be able to just blow cancer in anyone's face, or give a bunch of people a nearly eradicated disease, or let your 14 year old kid take your gun and shoot up a school.

You see, some people are actually able to weigh choices. The benefit vs. the cost, and come up with a compromise when possible, or what's best for most when not.

And yeah, sometimes it does go too far. And a lot of times it does because of our horrible litigious society.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Just illustrating a point that pro choicers are more pro life than they think. Likewise pro lifers are more pro choice than they think too. We’re more alike than different. Unfortunately politics focuses more on our differences than our similarities.

Noone wants to kill babies. Everyone wants to have the freewill to be able to choose how to live his/her life. Yet people end up at each other’s throats with this abortion issue as if pro life or pro choice is the only way to go...

[Rikadyn]

https://imgur.com/jDC4ADF.jpg

[Crazed_Insanity]

I'm not so sure about that...

I think the white nationalists thing happened mainly because Obama is black. I was honest worried that some nutcase would assassinate him sometime during his term, but luckily that didn't happen... perhaps it's due to our awesome secret service... In the end, only the white nationlist crap happened... and that was mostly because Trump was keen to use such sentiments to his advantage I think.

Being black and put in motion Obamacare caused a lot more disturbance in that conservative whitie force. Action reaction. I think Hillary would be a 'stronger' leader than Joe and could've disturbed that white male force further had she won, but I kinda doubt sleepy Joe would cause a huge disturbance. Things just might mellow out.

[Tom Servo]

Rosenstein resigning as deputy AG effective May 11.

[MR2 Fan]

I still can't figure out who's side he was on

[FaultyMario]

Yeah, what does that mean?

[Crazed_Insanity]

Who in our current field of contenders is our next Kennedy, Bill Clinton, Obama? Young, charismatic... (able to connect with your average folks)

I'm willing to let Bernie go if there is such a candidate.

I wonder if I’ve found my man!

http://time.com/longform/pete-buttigieg-2020/?amp=true

[FaultyMario]

"POTUS in panic/chaos" (https://www.insider.com/annie-donaldson-notes-mueller-report-revealed-chaos-in-trump-white-house-2019-5)

Link to article explaining how the notes of Annie Donaldson, aide to Don McGahn, gave the Mueller team a roadmap to Trump's decision-making process.

[MR2 Fan]

Trump called Putin today to discuss the Mueller report, confirmed by the Press Secretary ....they don't even try to hide it anymore!!

[Crazed_Insanity]

They have to make sure they both get their stories straight by comparing notes...;)

Just out of curiosity, do ‘notes’ like those credible/admissible evidence in regular courts?

Not to defend Trump, but I’d hate to be charged simply by notes somebody wrote about me. Let alone impeach a sitting president based on that alone.

If dems insist on impeachment, I hope there are more solid evidences.

[FaultyMario]

Hate to be a Debbie Downer, but over the weekend a new report from the Intergovernmental Science-Policy Platform on Biodiversity and Ecosystem Services (IPBES) came out, it basically states that we're at a critical stage for species-loss from here to 2050. We need urgent policy change to ameliorate (yes, not stop) our current situation. It basically blames conversion of wild forests and wetlands to farmland and unsustainable farming and fishing for our problems.

As we currently stand, with major loss of pollinators, accentuated climate events and reduction of coastal ecosystems things are going to get worse.

The solution according to them is "a fundamental, system-wide reorganisation across technological, economic and social factors, including paradigms, goals and values", which -to my understanding- means having the U.S., The EU, Russia and China sit down and have them agree to new economic rules.

Welcome to the apocalypse, I guess.

[FaultyMario]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJo8Z62rXi4


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2iAvNYlLkTo

[Crazed_Insanity]

Read from some Buzzfeed weird but true facts about genghis khan killing so many people in his wake... turning farmlands back into carbon absorbing forests... he actually reduced an estimated 700 metric tons of carbon dioxide, roughly the same amount we globally produced thru burning fossil fuel each year!!!

Perhaps these historical madmen were created by God or mother nature to help rebalance things a bit?

Perhaps Samuel Jackson's crazy billionaire character in Kingsman is right that global warming is simply earth having a fever trying to fight off some virus... namely us?

I think it's unlike we'll get everyone to agree to something... so rather than waiting for all the greedy too big to fail companies and major world corrupt governments to come to an agreement to save the planet, why not we each start to do whatever we can do for now. We also have control of which company to do businesses with and which politicians to vote for. I don't need Trump to join the Paris Accord in order to get solar panels and EVs..., but then again, although I'm polluting less now, what about 20~30 yrs down the road, where are we going to dump all those solar panels and ev batteries?

Anyway, we're problems solvers. As we solve one problem, we'll likely create additional unforeseen problems. So future generations will always have jobs I guess. ;)

I'm pretty confident that we or our future generations will be able to find a way to solve these challenges. But we must 1st take on personal responsibility... not the mentality that if my neighbor's not doing it or my government's not doing it... or since China's not doing it... then screw it we're doomed!!!

Just do the right thing and hopefully others will follow... or if you find another person doing better, then follow that person. I really have come to the conclusion that politics don't really work. Expecting politicians to solve our problems 1st is an exercise in futility. These movements starts with actions from us, not Trump.

[FaultyMario]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D51W1W7U8AANijB.png

Also, hundreds of former federal prosecutors believe "that the conduct of President Trump described in Special Counsel Robert Mueller’s report would, in the case of any other person not covered by the Office of Legal Counsel policy against indicting a sitting President, result in multiple felony charges for obstruction of justice". (https://medium.com/@dojalumni/statement-by-former-federal-prosecutors-8ab7691c2aa1)

[Dicknose]

Perhaps Samuel Jackson's crazy billionaire character in Kingsman is right that global warming is simply earth having a fever trying to fight off some virus... namely us?

But it wont kill us off.
It could wipe out most stuff, but we can adapt whats left to suit us. Probably wont support the current population and maybe standard of living will drop, but climate change wont wipe out humans.
Probably just leave a planet where future generations go - wow I wish Id seen a whale/tiger/polar bear/penguin etc.




I really have come to the conclusion that politics don't really work. Expecting politicians to solve our problems 1st is an exercise in futility. These movements starts with actions from us, not Trump.
Or you realise that politics in a democracy is YOU.
If you care, then vote the way that best helps. Contact your local reps and let them know the issues that are important.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Or you realise that politics in a democracy is YOU.
If you care, then vote the way that best helps. Contact your local reps and let them know the issues that are important.

I meant action is better than activism. I used to think we absolutely need governments to pull stuff like going to the moon off. However, Elon Musk is trying to get to Mars himself.

It's probably easier to just go ahead and try to get something done yourself rather than wait until we all reach a consensus. If you wish to set your slaves free, no need to wait til Abe Lincoln to come tell you. Starting a war to force others to save the world with regard to climate change also probably won't make any sense... ;)

Don't get me wrong, I will definitely exercise my right to vote for the guy I want, but I don't think I'd waste my time trying to use political activism to sway somebody like Trump to do the things I want. He's just not going to listen. I can respect him to want to cater to the folks who actually voted for him... I'll just have to wait until the next election.

[Dicknose]

You can do both...
ps go Zali!

[FaultyMario]

President Trump not only engaged in tax evasion and elusion. He also lost $1.17 billion between 1985 and 1994. At least, that's what the NYT says. I can't confirm as it's behind a paywall so here's Vanity Fair's (https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2019/05/donald-trump-one-of-the-biggest-losers-in-america-tax-returns) take on it and The Daily's (https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/08/podcasts/the-daily/trump-taxes.html) version.

[Crazed_Insanity]

There must be good reason(s) why Trump needs to hide his past tax returns. That should be a no brainer.

However, until his official tax returns are release, should the media really rely on "wikileak type" reports? Giving Trump more ammo about making the claim that liberal media is spreading fake news?

Need to learn a lesson from the Mueller report. If you don't have convincing evidence to convict or indict somebody, just presume innocence and let it go. Dragging shit on can only split Americans further apart and giving Russian and the Chinese better chances at meddling in the future.

[FaultyMario]

However, until his official tax returns are release, should the media really rely on "wikileak type" reports? Giving Trump more ammo about making the claim that liberal media is spreading fake news?

Originally posted by Thomas Jefferson in 1787:


The basis of our government being the opinion of the people, the very first object should be to keep that right; and were it left to me to decide whether we should have a government without newspapers, or newspapers without a government, I should not hesitate a moment to prefer the latter. But I should mean that every man should receive those papers and be capable of reading them





Need to learn a lesson from the Mueller report. If you don't have convincing evidence to convict or indict somebody, just presume innocence and let it go. Dragging shit on can only split Americans further apart and giving Russian and the Chinese better chances at meddling in the future.

Originally posted by 794 former federal prosecutors on 6/5:


The Mueller report describes several acts that satisfy all of the elements for an obstruction charge: conduct that obstructed or attempted to obstruct the truth-finding process, as to which the evidence of corrupt intent and connection to pending proceedings is overwhelming. These include:

· The President’s efforts to fire Mueller and to falsify evidence about that effort;

· The President’s efforts to limit the scope of Mueller’s investigation to exclude his conduct; and

· The President’s efforts to prevent witnesses from cooperating with investigators probing him and his campaign.


Originally posted by David Cay Johnston (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Cay_Johnston) in the Vanity Fair article:


Money . . . flows out faster than it flows in. And one of the reasons we should be concerned about that is someone who is constantly, desperately in search for money to maintain the appearance that they're wealthy, is likely to commit crimes and be open to various actions.

[FaultyMario]

Just to drive the point home. Mueller as an investigator did not have the power to indict Trump, as it is DOJ policy not to indict a sitting president. Mueller's boss, William P. Barr decided not to act, in spite of the evidence his subordinate presented him with.

Let that sink in.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Mueller has no power to indict Trump, but he could make it more obvious that he personally recommends it and would professionally do it if he were given such power... so that there's no way for Barr to weasel his way out of it. He should not leave his conclusion opened to interpretation like that. People can even interpret the Bible way differently, let alone a report like his.

After a thorough investigation, what would you recommend we do, Mueller?

[FaultyMario]

Are you selectively forgetting that it was Barr's secret criticism of that same investigation what got him the job as AG?, or that the arguments he used for his legal reasoning were rejected or questioned (https://www.lawfareblog.com/bill-barrs-very-strange-memo-obstruction-justice)?

[Crazed_Insanity]

Anyway, I have to admit I’m no legal expert, all I know is that Mueller failed to nail trumps coffin shut. I’d declare it a success if i see the republicans nailing that coffin. This report cannot be opened to political interpretations... it has to be so clear cut that even republicans want him out! Anything short of that, you might as well not publish your report and just keep digging.

[FaultyMario]

:rolleyes:

[Crazed_Insanity]

Impeachment absolutely has to have bipartisan support! Congressmen cannot vote along party line on this matter...

If ‘enough’ voters still want to keep this octopussy grabbing president around..., well, got to respect that. (Assuming Russians didn’t mess with our voting machines).

Anyway, I think without Hillary, dems should have a good chance taking the WH back this time.

[Crazed_Insanity]

How come no more political talks lately? Sick and tired of it?

Hopefully Trump won't seriously becoming the worst ever president by dragging us into another war... hopefully it's just postering with Iran. Similarly with the trade war with China. Sigh...

Anyway, with regard to democratic presidential candidates, Bernie is still my #1 pick. My #2 pick has been fluctuating between Biden and Warren, but I think Pete Boot-edge-edge is probably now my solid #2 now. We probably don't need another white old male and Warren has been too feisty lately. I can understand her reasoning for pushing for impeachment and refusing to talk to FOX news, but I do believe Sanders is doing a better job trying to reach over to the other side by being the 1st to do a town hall with FOX. Our nation needs to heal in order to move forward. Political fighting is really bogging us down... Pete is also another 'healer' type, not the fighter type. So I guess if you're in the mood to keep on fighting the conservatives, then I guess Warren is probably the better pick for you. Personally, I want somebody who can bring the country together.

[Dicknose]

Australian election this Saturday
Our campaigning doesnt go on as long as the US stuff and they do lots of silly waiting like holding policy announcements till the last week (so they feel fresh and get momentum at the right time). Downside is that some people have already voted!
For a country that is already a lot to the left of the USA, it looks like a change of government from conservative right (called Liberal - just to confuse you) to the left (Labor). At the same time there is a far right that will probably get a few senate seats (that doesnt decide the government, but is a 2nd group that votes and controls bills)

[Tom Servo]

Warren didn't refuse to talk to Fox News. She refused to go on a town hall specifically hosted by them that would be exclusive on their network. There's a big difference there.

https://twitter.com/ewarren/status/1128314853595189249

[Crazed_Insanity]

I can understand her reasons but I failed to see your big difference. She refused an invite from Fox, let me truncate the word news from my original word salad, maybe that’d help?

Anyway, my point was that she has basically pulled something similar to what Hillary did about deplorables... they speak true and factual statements, but these cold hard facts will only end up inflicting more injuries and make things worse for everyone. I like what Bernie did more. They’re both socialistic progressive lefties, but I prefer how Bernie deal with these things.

[FaultyMario]

Venezuela can no longer remit subsidized petrol to Haiti. Massive blackouts throughout the country.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Had no idea Haiti was dependent on cheap Venezuela oil...

[Tom Servo]

https://i.imgur.com/djWtcms.jpg

[Crazed_Insanity]

:lol: that’s a good one!

[Yw-slayer]

I've seen various versions of that in about 3 whatsapp groups/distribution lists.

[Dicknose]

Zali

[Crazed_Insanity]

She’s who you wanted right?

[IMOA]

She's who pretty much everyone, including the party the guy she beat belongs to, wanted.

[Crazed_Insanity]

:lol:

[Tom Servo]

Trump is now running around criticizing Fox for having a town hall with Buttigieg, which his base is eating up and he's using to attack everyone on the channel who isn't an opinion pundit like Carlson or Hannity.

This is why Warren was smart not to do that. There is no winning in that situation. Bernie did as well as he could, but it is a 100% losing proposition doing one of those.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I don’t know. I quite enjoy seeing Fox News fight with Fox Opinions.

I don’t quite understand what Bernie and Pete lost by doing that townhall with Fox News.

Are you actually worried that you might lose Fox News? ;)

[FaultyMario]

This is why Warren was smart not to do that. There is no winning in that situation. Bernie did as well as he could, but it is a 100% losing proposition doing one of those.

Her explanation was as fourth-wall breaking as you could have in modern politics. It was refreshing. I don't know how electable she is, but she sure has policy options.

I've been reading up on the democratic consensus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-war_consensus), and it seems to be something that for could work you yanks. The UK was in an odd position back then, the world stage was in turmoil over the surge of the USSR as a military world power and on the other hand you had the economic unification of Europe and there was also the transition from Empire to Commonwealth; so Britain was kind of on its own. What I see right now is the surge of China as an technological world power, the economic unification of the global south and a transition away from neoliberalism. It'd be wise to agree to 3 or 4 items and build a generational roadmap (If it were up to me, those would be: world leadership in STEM, guaranteed basket of public services with emphasis on healthcare, and a consensual version of the Green New Deal), so that partisanship does not weaken the US's role in the world stage because we are at a transition point. All the congressional stonewalling during the Obama years and the scandalous Trump years are a big distraction.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I do like warren, I also agree with her reasoning. However, do you really believe she can reach any consensus with the republican leadership? Political atmosphere is so bad now, people in the left don’t even want to make America great anymore... thanks to Trump.

She also already has plans and policies in place. Why does she need consensus from the other side? Consensus will probably only ruin her plans, right? ;)

I think she’s a too much of a fighter, dems who want to kick some conservative asses should like her. My worry is that even if she succeeds in kicking trumps ass, 4~8 yrs later, things most likely will bounce back harder...

Things could bounce back this horribly after mild manner Obama, I can’t imagine how the country will turn after Warren.

We need healers in order to build consensus, not fighters.

[MR2 Fan]

no, we don't need GOP support AT ALL. We need democratic majority in congress and in the white house. The GOP won't play ball either way, and they've capitulated to the most racist, right wing policies.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Thru gerrymandering and whatever other BS political tactics, GOP has always managed to win more seats and even the presidency with minority amount of voters. In order to ensure longterm political success, dems have to capture more of those conservative voters who are NOT deplorables.

You can't capture those votes by continual ideological fights. Newton's 3rd law, action reaction, is applicable politically as well. Swinging too much toward which ever direction, eventually the pendulum will swing back. This kind of extreme swinging needs to be stopped or eventually our society will destroy itself.

[MR2 Fan]

the problem with that rationale is that "extreme left" here is considered centric in most places. The "radical" policies the democrats, even the progressives are offering are NORMAL in most advanced societies.

The GOP and the media have made the right seem centrist and actual centrist seem "extreme left" to a lot of people.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Every nation has a different 'norm'. Where is the US 'norm'? That's up to us to collectively find out, not to predetermine that based on what Europeans or Australians are doing. We are not any other advanced nations, we have our own country! We are where we are. We can't be emulating other countries while ignoring nearly half of our own citizens as if they all should be deported to hell or just be ignored. Whenever you do that, it gives somebody like Trump a chance to rise in power. We absolutely have to work together. I don't agree with the older Hillary most of the time, but I do agree with her campaign slogan. We'll definitely be stronger together. Too bad I didn't sense her belief in her own slogan, otherwise, without that 'deplorable' mishap, I think she could've won.

[Dicknose]

The polls (and betting agencies) got their predictions for the Oz election wrong. Shades of Trump!
So the Labor (left) party were expected to win but the current Liberal/National (right) govt retained power and seems today they fell over the line for having a majority on their own.

And yes Zali got up against the former PM Abbott. As IMOA said - even the supporters of his party didnt want him. Good riddance.

So we now go back to status quo for a few more years.

[Yobbo NZ]

The polls (and betting agencies) got their predictions for the Oz election wrong. Shades of Trump!
So the Labor (left) party were expected to win but the current Liberal/National (right) govt retained power and seems today they fell over the line for having a majority on their own.

And yes Zali got up against the former PM Abbott. As IMOA said - even the supporters of his party didnt want him. Good riddance.

So we now go back to status quo for a few more years.

Kevin 2020 has a nice ring to it don't you think?
Someone will try overthrow Morrison in the next 6 months.

[Crazed_Insanity]

The polls (and betting agencies) got their predictions for the Oz election wrong. Shades of Trump!
So the Labor (left) party were expected to win but the current Liberal/National (right) govt retained power and seems today they fell over the line for having a majority on their own.

And yes Zali got up against the former PM Abbott. As IMOA said - even the supporters of his party didnt want him. Good riddance.

So we now go back to status quo for a few more years.

It’s interesting pollsters kept on getting things wrong all over the world...

I can’t believe it’s the statisticians who kept on getting their maths wrong, people being surveyed must’ve told lies. People at the right are probably more politically correct than they’re willing to admit... ;)

[Dicknose]

One basic assumption is a "random sample", but its not random, there are factors such as who is going to answer your call or agree to participate.
How did you contact them? When? That can all affect the demographics.

[IMOA]

Kevin 2020 has a nice ring to it don't you think?
Someone will try overthrow Morrison in the next 6 months.

Morrison was clever enough to change the rules so apart from the fact that he's got a party room without the problem elements of the past 10 years (and its not just Abbott) and the fact he's got a lot of credibility in the party from winning this election, the new rules are that you need 70% of the party room to get rid of the leader and that just isn't happening. I think we have a period where the government can focus on governing rather than stabbing each other in the back.

And Kevin 2020, lol, thanks christ no. I think Albo will get the leadership and electorally he's much more popular than Bill, the Liberals won't be able to be as shit if Albo is leader and they aren't quite as extreme in their policies.

[FaultyMario]

Trump is a [bad] impersonator of Reagan: Yale lecturer. (https://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/for-america-china-is-the-new-japan-by-stephen-s-roach-2019-05)


*commentary mine

[Crazed_Insanity]

Where can I find your commentary?

[George]

Inside the brackets.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Oh! :lol:

[George]

:lol:




(I was hoping I was right - wasn't 100% sure)

[FaultyMario]

You're right George.

In fact I was hoping you'd chime in because, well, you're old enough to remember the anti-japanese attitudes described in the article.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I'm kinda old enough... I immigrated to LA around 1984, but I was a 6 grader back then...

Anyway, back then Japanese was buying up LA. Nowadays, it's Chinese buying up LA.

Given Japan's size, US kicking its butt is an inevitability whether it's WWII or trade war.

China OTHO, we have a mixed record. Who won the Korean war or Vietnam war?

China for sure isn't playing fair though. Obvious example would be Google and Facebook cannot go inside China, but their tech counterparts could venture out globally. Their state run capitalism can set the game up however they want to their advantage. In all honesty, in order to deal with a dictator like Xi, we probably need a dick head like Trump. Let's see who can get crazier playing this game of chicken.

Of course worst case scenario is that we both collide in a head-on collision and suffer a mutual death. What does Trump have to lose? His term is near the end, might get impeached, he's got nothing else better to do. Whereas Xi, the king of China for a lifetime... has nothing to worry about other than crazy Trump ruining his kingdom.

I get the feeling that Xi will blink first.

[George]

you're old enough to remember the anti-japanese attitudes described in the article.

People of my parents' generation who were children during WWII (and certainly older people too) often frowned upon Japanese cars and Japanese electronics. But I don't think it was entirely because they wouldn't forgive "the Japs" for WWII. I think it may have been simpler than that - if we buy American-made goods, we'll keep American manufacturing jobs and have profitable American companies.


When Reagan took office in January 1981, the net domestic saving rate stood at 7.8% of national income, and the current account was basically balanced. Within two and a half years, courtesy of Reagan’s wildly popular tax cuts, the domestic saving rate had plunged to 3.7%, and the current account and the merchandise trade balances swung into perpetual deficit. In this important respect, America’s so-called trade problem was very much of its own making.

Yet the Reagan administration was in denial. There was little or no appreciation of the link between saving and trade imbalances. Instead, the blame was pinned on Japan, which accounted for 42% of US goods trade deficits in the first half of the 1980s. Japan bashing then took on a life of its own with a wide range of grievances over unfair and illegal trade practices.

I bolded some text in that quote.

Despite our parents' and grandparents' misgivings about the Japanese, when my friends and I were teens in the '80s, we liked Japanese electronics and cars and what we knew about their culture.

I worked for a manufacturing company during and after college (late 1980s and into the '90s) and there we learned about Deming (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._Edwards_Deming) and JIT Manufacturing (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-in-time_manufacturing) as the company tried to stay current with the latest trends in efficiency.

This movie about Japanese manufacturing and culture was pretty popular in its day: Gung Ho (1986) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gung_Ho_(film))

Looking back, there many have been as many or more folks trying to learn from the Japanese in the '80s as there were people boycotting Sony and saying there are too many Toyotas in this town.

I remember "tariff bikes". In around '82 and '83 I was very interested in both motorcycles and cars as I neared age 16 and looked forward to getting my drivers license. I subscribed to Motorcyclist magazine back then and remember the tariff put on Japanese bikes larger than 750cc to protect Harley Davidson's market and by driving up prices for the Honda Magna and Shadow and Gold Wing and similar models from Kawasaki, Suzuki, and Yamaha. Of course those manufacturers had 700cc sport bikes and cruisers for sale in the USA soon afterwards, so I'm not sure what long-term effects that tariff had.

I'm better with nostalgia than forecasting, but I suspect this Chinese tariff situation is just going to piss everyone off until it's over. And I can't help thinking it's either a smoke screen to hide other goings-on from the American people or Trump and his cronies don't have a clue what they're doing and are just shilling for votes from the hell yeah, 'Murica kicks ass! crowd in the next election.

:sing:
My old car keeps breaking down
My new car ain't from Japan
There's already too many Toyotas
In this town...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_J_Ix0Z8etw

[Crazed_Insanity]

I think one thing that pisses me off about China is that at least Japan learned from the west and improve upon it. So far, what are the west or rest of the globe learning from China?

Their entire culture is a fake! Pretending to be capitalistic free market but everything is state controlled! Unless there’s a regime change, China will continue to be a fake nation. Everyone wants to be a part of China to make money off of its huge market, but nobody really wants to stay there. All the rich businessmen/politicians all have exit strategies on how to move their families abroad eventually...

Yeah, soon the Chinese will be able to knock off Teslas. Will they ever make a better EV or other electronic thingy or planes or what? Or build them more reliability? Made in Japan used to suck but that completely changed now. Will made in China ever sound different in the future? Yes, I don’t want a US/Canadian made Tesla or iPhone, I want one made in China please!!!

My gut is telling me no.

Most Chinese companies are shell companies in it to make some quick money. With state sponsored money, companies like Faraday Future can appear very impressive. However should you fall out of favor, they can come crashing down hard.

[JoshInKC]

Their entire culture is a fake! Pretending to be capitalistic free market but everything is state controlled! Unless there’s a regime change, China will continue to be a fake nation. Everyone wants to be a part of China to make money off of its huge market, but nobody really wants to stay there.

This is an interesting read on China, I would suggest that the exact opposite is true - They are pretending to be Maoist socialists, but capital and the private investors control everything.

[Crazed_Insanity]

They even have Christian churches there, but guess what? Lord Jesus better not be greater than Lord Xi. Or else the church will be shut down.

Lord Xi would encourage capitalistic ventures of course, but he better has a cut. If he decides that you need to be gone, you’ll be gone.

Lord Xi controls everything! He gives private investors the illusion that they are in control.

If he is as good as Jesus, China will become awesome! However, surely absolute power will corrupt him absolutely.

[FaultyMario]

Remember when a question on citizenship was added to the 2020 census and everyone thought "racists"? Well it turns out it was more becase "gerrymandering".

[Crazed_Insanity]

Yeah, whatever the reasons, they were stupid. We have a stupid Supreme Court too.

This should also reduce liberal states population and electoral votes so that somebody like trump can win easier.

Hofeller’s daughter must be a liberal I guess. Thanks to her now we know the truth.

[FaultyMario]

http://pbs.twimg.com/media/D72iBwhUwAA565k.png

How much is 600B x 5%?

[FaultyMario]

There's a response letter from Lopez Obrador already doing the rounds, but I find this tweet more significant (and shorter!).


Faced with @realDonaldTrump's threat we shall close ranks. The and dignity of Mexico has never been nor will it subject to negotiation. Full support.
Does Trump think that by making his citizens pay more for their Mexican imports he is solving the migration problem?

This was posted on twitter by the losing candidate from our latest presidential election, a Davos man if there ever was one.

[Tom Servo]

As a friend of mine likes to say: Hope you enjoy your $5 limes!

[FaultyMario]

"President Donald Trump:

"I'm aware of your latest posture in relation to Mexico. Beforehand, I express to you that I do not want a confrontation. The peoples and the countries that we represent deserve that under any conflict in our relations, however grave they might be, dialogue be reached and the we act with prudence and responsibilty.

"The best president of Mexico -Benito Juárez- kept an excellent relationship with Abraham Lincoln, the republican forefather. Later, when Mexico exercised its right to expropriate oil, the democrat president Franklin D. Roosevelt understood the deep underlying reasons that made our patriotic president, Lázaro Cárdenas, act in favor of our sovereignty. By the way, FDR was a titan of liberties. Before anyone else, he defended the four basic human rights: the right to freedom, the right to free religion, the right to live free from fear and the right to live free from miseries.

On those thoughts we base our policy on the migratory matter. Human beings do not leave their homestead out of want, but rather out of need. That is why, from the beginnings of my administration, I proposed to you to opt for cooperation for development and to aid Central American countries with productive investments in order to generate employment and to solve these grievous matter.

"You also know that we are complying with our responsibility to avoid, in as much as possible and without violence to basic human rights, their passage thru our country. I shall not go without reminding you that, in a small scale of time, Mexicans won't have the need to migrate to the United States, and that migration will be optional, not forced. This, because we are fighting against corruption, Mexico's number one problem, ¡like never before! And, in this manner, our country will become a world power on the social dimension. Our fellow countrymen will be able to work and be happy where they were born, where their families are, where they have their traditions and cultures.

"President Trump: social issues are not solved by means of taxation or punitive measures. [Why] do you [want to turn] the country of fraternity with migrants into a ghetto, an enclosed space, a place of stigma, of mistreatment, of persecution, of expulsion, of the cancelling of the right to justice to those who -with personal effort and work- search for a life free of misery? The statute of liberty is not an empty vessel.

"With all due respect, and though you have every right to say it, your slogan of 'America First' is fallacy because to the end of times, even above national borders, justice and universal fraternity shall prevail.

"Specifically citizen president: I offer you to deepen our dialogue, to search for alternatives that solve the root of the migration issue and, please, remember that I do not lack courage, that I am not a coward or a pushover, but that I am acting on principle: I believe that politics, among other things, was invented to avoid war and confrontation. I do not believe in the Law of Retaliation, in "a tooth for a tooth" or "an eye for an eye", because if that were the case, we'd all be one-eyed or toothless. I believe in Statesmen, and more so in Countrymen; we are obliged to find peaceful solutions to controversy and to practice, forever, the ideal of non-violence.

"Lastly, I offer you to instruct your staff, if you don't find it inconvenient, to listen to representatives from our government headed by the Secretary of Foreign Affairs of Mexico, who shall depart to Washingt tomorrow with the instruction to reach an agreement beneficial to both countries.

"Nothing by force, everything by the reason and the Law!

"Your friend

[signed]
President of Mexico"

[JoshInKC]

If this fucks with my Tecate this summer, I murder.

[Tom Servo]

In truly surprising political news, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and Ted Cruz are teaming up to try to make it illegal for former legislators to become lobbyists.

https://www.npr.org/2019/05/31/728559903/ted-cruz-and-alexandria-ocasio-cortez-team-up-to-ban-lawmakers-from-lobbying

[George]

Not that I support the current situation as I understand it, but a law like that might be hard to enforce, just like non-compete clauses are.

[Freude am Fahren]

Not if we make it an amendment! DO ITTTTTT

[Phil_SS]

I'm sure every law ever made could be considered in that way. But laws need to be made and I am 100% behind this one.

[Freude am Fahren]

Once again, I don't know whether to post this in the fails or politics thread.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D8G3sZKU8AE7T2M.jpg:med

[FaultyMario]

http://pbs.twimg.com/media/D72iBwhUwAA565k.png


The Wilson Center's response. (https://www.wilsoncenter.org/article/response-to-trumps-announcement-tariffs-mexican-imports)


First, Mexico is already straining to maintain its current efforts to curb Central American transmigration and is probably incapable of doing any more. In fact it may reduce the willingness to continue to stop Central American crossing the border from Guatemala.


While Mexico could scale up their enforcement strategies to a certain degree, there is neither the institutional capacity nor the political will to deport all migrants that enter through Mexico’s southern border.


Until recently, the United States had important programs to improve education; prevent crime; strengthen police, prosecutors, and courts; fight crime and corruption; and create economic opportunities in Central America. These are not perfect programs but many had demonstrated positive results.


Mr. Trump’s rationale may well fit into his own domestic political calculations, but it begs the question: does he understand what a radical shift in Mexican politics and political economy that results from his own provocations might mean for his own country and for the future?

[Crazed_Insanity]

Of course not!

[FaultyMario]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D8Pn-gkXUAAwOGp.png

[MR2 Fan]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D8zWfENUYAAvK5I.png:large

[JSGeneral]

https://youtu.be/vgPEiILu_V4

[FaultyMario]

Why aren't more people searching for "healthcare legislation"? seems to be an aggravating factor, as shown on JSG's video.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Jon is too nice.

I'd prefer to have a blind Al Pacino fucking cussing them out and burn the fucking place down!

Never forget... blue lives don't really matter.

[MR2 Fan]

Jon is too nice.

I'd prefer to have a blind Al Pacino fucking cussing them out and burn the fucking place down!

Never forget... blue lives don't really matter.


ok I agree with Billi (it happens once a year)

[Crazed_Insanity]

How can there be any fucking disagreements on such issue... there's nothing political about it.

[Freude am Fahren]

Tell that to the politicians.

[MR2 Fan]

I don't understand WHY this is an issue. Are lobbyists railing against giving this funding to first responders for some reason?

[Freude am Fahren]

I saw that video link and thought "why is this 15 year old video being posted?" Nope, somehow they still have to fight for this.

I have no idea what the why is other than politicians gonna politic.

Assholes.

[George]

How can there be any fucking disagreements on such issue... there's nothing political about it.

The creation and funding of a program like this with taxpayer dollars is always going to be political.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Isn’t this obvious? They like to see black lives fight with blue lives and vice versa because neither one really matters to them when push comes to shove.

Tell this to the patriotic conservative base. Surely they’d be appalled by this.

Also, not sure if we can really count on liberal politicians because all they have to do is whine about how conservatives wouldn’t let them do anything.

Fucking politicians! We really need to torch the place and start over.

This only money matters politics needs to be stopped!

At least even FOX reported about this. It’d be nice is Trump could tweet about it and somehow get it done, but not holding my breath.

[Tom Servo]

The creation and funding of a program like this with taxpayer dollars is always going to be political.

It does kinda feel like it's a slam dunk. It feels like the program wouldn't cost *that* much in the grand scheme of the federal budget which might help democrats push for healthcare funding, while it also shows a commitment to taking care of first responders which seems very popular amongst the right, especially Trump supporters. It feels like the one thing that people who really don't like any form of taxation would be more likely to respond with "well, okay, just this once", but maybe I'm reading the room wrong.

[Yw-slayer]

Protests and shit here today!

[Cam]

The world is watching.

[Yw-slayer]

It's cool. As in, it's nice of you guys to watch, but things will be and are OK. If anything, our Police have been very restrained in dealing with the protesters.

[Cam]

I do not want China putting people in a gulag or worse simply because they are critical of the government.

[Crazed_Insanity]

YW, with regard to HK police, when push came to shove, do you think they will do what the Chinese govt want or what's good for HK?

[Crazed_Insanity]

I do not want China putting people in a gulag or worse simply because they are critical of the government.

China can already do that to whoever they want in China. It's just that people of HK trying to fight against that.

My guess is that it'll end like Tienanmen Square if people don't submit. Dictators will always get their way, if they don't get overthrown of course.

[Crazed_Insanity]

It does kinda feel like it's a slam dunk. It feels like the program wouldn't cost *that* much in the grand scheme of the federal budget which might help democrats push for healthcare funding, while it also shows a commitment to taking care of first responders which seems very popular amongst the right, especially Trump supporters. It feels like the one thing that people who really don't like any form of taxation would be more likely to respond with "well, okay, just this once", but maybe I'm reading the room wrong.

To put into perspective, NASA's annual budget is around $20 Billion... that's for trying to put man back into space and other space exploration research. And Trump recently touted he increased additional $1.some billion in order to accelerate going back to the moon.

These 1st responders' medical bills are nearly exhausting the ~$7 billion. Congress just needs to reauthorize billions more.

So that's a significant amount of money congress needs to squeeze out of the budget.

Trying to see this on a more positive side... perhaps this reauthorization does have bi-partisan support. It is suppose to be a slam dunk and nothing political about it... that's why congress members thought it wasn't that necessary to attend that hearing... and they weren't expecting Jon there which resulted in such a huge publicity crisis for them...

Still, if it's so slam dunk, why was such a hearing even necessary?

There are also lots of horror stories in the VA hospital...

It's just very difficult to give US government the benefit of the doubt anymore.

If you serve this great nation of ours, it's best that you sacrifice your lives and die for our country. If you somehow survived, you'll be fucked later on dudes.

This is how our country treats our supposed heros.

Only money matters in our nation. Conservatives pay lip service to blue lives and liberals pay lip service to black lives, but of course it's more important to save taxes on these too big to fail companies rather than saving any of those poor human lives.

No more politicians as usual for me.

Whoever you vote for, make sure your next one won't be a money oriented career politician. Of course, you'll have to be smart and be sure that you don't vote for someone like Trump too!

Choose wisely.

If I don't see either Bernie Sanders or Mayor Pete on the ballot, I'm skipping the presidential election. Sorry Neanderthal. There's just no point.

[Cam]

China can already do that to whoever they want in China. It's just that people of HK trying to fight against that.
I know.

[Crazed_Insanity]

It's cool. As in, it's nice of you guys to watch, but things will be and are OK. If anything, our Police have been very restrained in dealing with the protesters.

Actually the crackdown has began... :(

https://www.theguardian.com/global/video/2019/jun/12/hong-kong-protesters-gather-to-oppose-extradition-bill-debate-video?fbclid=IwAR3pyWSpUSP7NgpliaUiygllcsyEleft42G 8NnMAL9EJKENiccgY6gsZHTI

[George]

Not to ignore the HK situation, but the current 9/11 victim compensation fund debate reminds me in some ways of the Bonus Army (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonus_Army).

[Yw-slayer]

Don't be so dramatic. The protesters themselves tries to violently storm our legislature and used iron rods and bricks as weapons. There is a barricade around 20 from my office which a fully independent press org verified has gasoline and flammable materials on it.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Media can always make things appear more dramatic I guess... so everything’s cool over there?

[Yw-slayer]

Everything is cool now, as I thought it would be. There'll probably be more protests when they next table the bill, though.

[MR2 Fan]

just please no protests the week of September 18th-26th, kthxbye

[Yw-slayer]

Should be OK by then lol. Anyway, just confirmed that I'll be back in HK on 24.9. So there's a small window of opportunity for us to hang out.

[MR2 Fan]

Should be OK by then lol. Anyway, just confirmed that I'll be back in HK on 24.9. So there's a small window of opportunity for us to hang out.

Yeah, we'll see how it goes.

[FaultyMario]

I don't know if you guys know who Manuela Carmena is.

So here's a quick bio: communist in her youth, lawyer and judge in her adult life, retired in 2010 and started a grannie's coop to sell toys made in the local jail. Came out of retirement to win the Madrid city election in 2015 on a public housing platform. Her tenure was, on general terms, one of technocratic prudence (https://www.jacobinmag.com/2017/06/ahora-madrid-manuela-carmena-podemos-austerity-spain), which of course made her supporting factions clash over their more leftist demands, and she narrowly lost the mayoral race earlier this year because, well, European elections are weird like that (https://elpais.com/elpais/2019/05/27/inenglish/1558948413_735223.html).

Today was her last council assembly as mayor, and she ended the session under a long ovation, not least because of how she framed her farewell, and I paraphrase: "something, something politics is for the common good, we ought to talk past our differences and find the best in each of us, because when we live in a city like Madrid, we are taking care of each other".

Her speech sums up my view of politics.

[MR2 Fan]

Sarah (not really human) Huckabee Sanders is leaving the WH at the end of the month....where she will spend time doing the same thing she's been not doing for the past 3 months.....holding WH press conferences.

[Tom Servo]

(stealing someone else's joke) I won't believe it until she denies it herself.

[Crazed_Insanity]

: "something, something politics is for the common good, we ought to talk past our differences and find the best in each of us, because when we live in a city like Madrid, we are taking care of each other".

Her speech sums up my view of politics.

I don’t disagree with her in principle, but couple things about politics that I find annoying are people don’t tend to talk to each other that well, and even if the talk went well and consensus reached, there may not be any follow up actions.

In order for politics to be truly functional, we need to have highly educated and highly moral politicians. Unfortunately the opposite is usually the case, even if that’s not the case, money can easily corrupt.

I think that latest Jon Stewart episode with congress is the last straw for me. Talk is cheap. Actions are louder than words. I’m just gonna do it like Nike does it. Fuck whoever’s in office. Fuck those hypocritical debates. Just fucking do what’s right. Starting with my home, then my neighborhood...

[MR2 Fan]

NBC Just announced The lineups of The Democratic presidential Debate

On June 26:
Booker
Warren
O’Rourke
Klobuchar
Delaney
Gabbard
Castro
Ryan
de Blasio
Inslee

On June 27:
Harris
Biden
Buttigieg
Sanders
Gillibrand
Bennet
Williamson
Swalwell
Yang
Hickenlooper



I really wonder what they're going to debate about, other than undoing things done under Trump's insanely bad tenure as fast as possible.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Even with 10 folks, yeah, I agree, how are they going to debate each other?

Assuming it's 1 hr each, might as well just give each candidate 6 minutes of talk time telling us voters why we absolutely must vote for him/her over the other 19 folks.

DNC really should have all declared candidates vote for each other openly other than self in some sort of special primary, just to see how they'd rank based just on their own votes... and depending on the outcome, if the votes are really spread out, then perhaps we can have more finalists come together to debate the differences. But if it ends up only with few of them getting most of the 20 votes, then just narrow things down to those few candidates. Mayor Pete obviously would support Sanders, but I'd be interested to see who would Bernie support... Probably Warren?

Anyway, 20 is ridiculous. Pretty sure most of these candidates are running out of their own vanity rather than what's good for the American people.

[Tom Servo]

There's definitely big divisions within the party over the "green new deal" concept and over Medicare for All. Biden will probably also be held to task for a lot of views he's had previously, like how he supported the Hyde Amendment as recently as a couple of weeks ago.

[MR2 Fan]

I hate to say this, but I'm kinda hoping there's a big scandal that will take Biden out of the running. He's way too establishment for my liking, and more stuff keeps coming out about his odd behavior with women (Still NOTHING like Dotard has done, but somehow he gets a pass)

[Crazed_Insanity]

Biden is better than Hillary IMHO, but I do agree, as a career politician, he has way too many baggages to deal with...

Regarding the green new deal, I whole-heartedly agree with it in principle, but I'm scared to really fully support it. It's like we know USA the patient has a serious heart problem and needs a heart transplant, we don't have much time... and we've never actually performed a heart transplant surgery before..., but fuck, we'll figure it out as we go along. Let's just cut USA's chest open and see what happens... fingers crossed.

It's like choosing between suffering a heart attack soon or have a high chance of dying on operating table.

I think I'm still leaning toward suffering that heart attack in some unknown future... and starting eating healthy and exercise more... until doctors seriously figure out how we can fix the problem with confidence, I'm just not inclined to allow them to cut off my heart off and replacing it with a new one that might not even pump.

I know green new dealers have good intentions, but I need to be reasonably sure that the road they paved won't send all of us to hell prematurely.

[Tom Servo]

The problem is is that we're the patient that got told 40 years ago to start eating healthy and exercise more and by this point we've missed our chance to do that.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Understood.

May USA be like the very 1st person who successfully had a green renewable heart transplant!

If it works out, earth shall be saved.

If not, at least we still have super powers like Russia and China around...

[FaultyMario]

Did Donnie concede that he's afraid of Sanders?

If so, Bernie should just take a page from Danish politics: offer a democratic welfare state plus a tougher stance on migration. Voilá, you're elected!

[Crazed_Insanity]

Where did you see such concession?

[FaultyMario]

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/jun/18/trump-2020-campaign-highlights-key-takeaways-what-you-need-to-know-re-election-launch

#1

[Crazed_Insanity]

Did he specifically mention Sanders? Maybe I'm blind, I'm still not seeing it. Seems like he mentioned Hillary more than any other current democratic opponents...

Anyway, I'm not afraid of socialists, democrats, conservatives, republicans, or even communists. I just don't want anymore politics as usually (corrupted with selfish interests). My hope is to see Trump concede before Sanders comes 2020.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Iran freaking shot down a US drone. Whether over international or Iranian air space is probably irrelevant. I can't imagine US not responding back in some ways. So perhaps Trump will finally become the worst president EVER! (I previously don't see him as the worst ever because at least he hasn't drag US into a costly war, but I suppose that's probably about to change...)

[Dicknose]

And what would the US do if Iran had a drone a few miles off the US coast - heck what did the US do when Cuba got Russian missiles?
You are very good at world police and exerting (and extending) power, but not so good if anyone else tries the same.

Trump or any other president - what are you doing with so much of your military sitting just off the boundaries of other countries??

Team America - fuck yeah!

[Crazed_Insanity]

Trump is being unpredictable as usual. First ordered the strikes, then called it off in the last minute according to NY times...

Whatever the reason, just glad to know that we avoided getting into another messy middle eastern war... for now.

[FaultyMario]

Dude, no! dude no, he's gun whup your ass, don't pick on him, Iran's going to whup your ass.

[Rare White Ape]

How many thousands of people will die because of one man's bluster?

2024 can't come soon enough.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Very interesting. Lost of 0 US lives vs possible lost of possible 150 Iranian lives was not an appropriate or proportional response and that's why Trump called it off... at least that's his justification.

It's also very interesting that media reports of the UAV Global Hawk kept on decreasing in value... I've heard $160 million and the latest I've heard now came down to $110 million drone... maybe Pentagon can keep on reducing it's value down to nothing then we'll have peace. ;)

Regardless of who's in office, if you goto war, you're an asshole. If you don't, then you're weak.

Anyway, I do hope Trump won't end up making America's asshole great again. Captain America's gotta great ass, but the world really doesn't need to see his asshole!!!

[Tom Servo]

Well, right now his move appears to be claiming that when he "found out" that 150 lives would be lost, he called it off. I mean, I agree that it should have been called off, but who approves a military strike without, ya know...knowing that? Or even asking?

My guess is that he knew full well all along, but eventually some of his advisors finally talked him out of it, and now he's making this claim to try to save face.

[The359]

Kids at the border though, not as big of a problem with death.

I guess Mexicans are now below Muslims?

[Tom Servo]

Speaking of, the administration is arguing in court that the required "safe and sanitary conditions" for those being held at the border does not mean they have to have access to soap and toothpaste.

As popehat put it, "Great, now my kids can argue that the federal government says they don't have to take a bath or brush their teeth."

[Crazed_Insanity]

Anyway, the dude is schizophrenic and delusional... just freaking unpredictable. Pretty sure any 'typical' US admin would've struck back and couldn't care less how many lives would be lost.

Whatever, I'm just glad he reversed course with family separations and pulling out before firing missiles...

[Tom Servo]

Speaking of: https://www.thedailybeast.com/trump-approved-iran-strikes-knowing-body-count-would-be-high

[Crazed_Insanity]

US wasn't expecting Iranians can shoot down the Global Hawk... so perhaps the real reason was the one Mario stated... Iranians probably have more advance weapon systems then we thought... once we realized that with more accurate intel, we decided to hit the brakes?

US went thru all that trouble looking to pick a fight, there must be a better reason why all of a sudden we decided the enemy didn't mean to shoot down our spy plane...

Anyway, whatever the real reason, just glad they didn't further escalate the situation...

[FaultyMario]

Ocasio-Cortez is right in saying those are concentration camps.

https://www.motorcities.org/images/file-20171004003201_1937_Lincolns.jpg
Lincoln Zephyr, 1937.


vs.

https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--JcBNmlkS--/c_scale,f_auto,fl_progressive,q_80,w_800/ykatrdhtgp6fiexlkyzp.jpg
Lincoln Continental, 2019.


and:


https://en.truthaboutcamps.eu/dokumenty/zalaczniki/74/74-47317.jpg
The children of SS Standartenführer Max Pauly playing inside Stutthof concentration camp, east of Danzig, ca. 1942.


https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/11557087/_R5A3543.jpg_001.JPG
Department of Health and Human Services handouts from inside Casa Padre youth shelter; Brownsville, Texas, 2019.


In 80 years, all things have changed yet nothing has really changed.

[Crazed_Insanity]

What happened to Japanese Americans during WWII was closer to concentration camp.

What’s happening now sucks too, especially family separation, but that’s probably the only thing happening against the will of the folks inside the camp.

Saddest thing is that people willfully joined this camp because conditions in their own country were much worse.

[FaultyMario]

but that’s probably the only thing happening against the will of the folks inside the camp.

Care to explain?

[Crazed_Insanity]

Camps for Jews and Japanese Americans were done by plucking them out of their homes against their will.

Donald Trump did not pluck these people out of their homes and put them in camps in America.

If you fly to America without visa, you'll be sent back or you'll be 'camping' in the airport and not allowed entry.

US had no right to separate families, but US has every right to deny entry of illegal migrants.

[FaultyMario]

US has every right to deny entry of illegal migrants.

Oh, I see your confusion.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Glad you saw it. Let's just leave it at that so I can stay confused.

[MR2 Fan]

Just wanted to note that seeking asylum is not illegal.

Trump wants to somehow let these immigrants know not to come to the U.S......by locking them up in cages, because that clearly sends a message to the poor people walking hundreds of miles with barely any access to food or water and we expect them to know the situation?

[Crazed_Insanity]

To be clear, considering it’s the US meddling in their countries, they really should have every right to be accepted as refugees and become our responsibilities.

Of course our govt won’t admit to that and average American don’t want more folks draining our already limited resources... so this is what ended up happening...

To equate this as concentration camp is a bit of an exaggeration. Trump admin for sure handled it poorly, but he wasn’t the guy who meddled in Central America and he is only trying to protect the border.

Our system could barely help keep American homeless people live in sanitary conditions let alone making sure we can keep all non-Americans living in sanitary conditions.

Maybe the best way to do this is for financially well off US families to adopt/sponsor migrant families and help them until they get on their feet. Politicizing this issue is really pointless.

Just like conservatives tend to want pro life..., ok fine, so would you adopt this unwanted baby? Take good care of him/her? No? Then shut the fuck up. Don’t use the government to deny people’s choice. Likewise, if liberals want to let migrants in, don’t expect the conservatives to help. If you want to help, then help.

Maybe we can start with helping the homeless? Rather just blame or expect the government to magically fix everything. Governments don’t tend to care about folks who have no money.

[Tom Servo]

I feel like it should be pointed out that the definition of "concentration camp" has absolutely nothing to do with where people were "plucked" from or whether or not the government has a right to "pluck" them there.

"A place where large numbers of people, especially political prisoners or members of persecuted minorities, are deliberately imprisoned in a relatively small area with inadequate facilities, sometimes to provide forced labor or await mass execution."

I think we all agree that at least the "mass execution" part is unlikely, but that's also in the "sometimes" part of the definition. The "large numbers of people...deliberately imprisoned in a relatively small area with inadequate facilities" part passes muster, IMHO.

[Crazed_Insanity]

I have to point out that these folks are not political prisoners of Trump nor is Trump trying to persecute this group of folks due to their ethnicity.

I’d agree it’s some sort of camp, but I just don’t think it really fits the definition of concentration camp.

[Tom Servo]

I read "especially political prisoners or members of persecuted minorities" as "doesn't have to be, but generally is." Also of note, ethnicity is not only way a group can be a minority, and I would disagree in that I think he is absolutely persecuting a minority group and has done so since his very first speech announcing his run for the presidency.

But either way, it's pedantry. He's separating kids from their families, keeping them in cages where they are sleeping on concrete in brightly lit rooms and trying to deny them soap and toothpaste. If you don't like calling it a concentration camp, that's fine I suppose, but it's ultimately immaterial.

[FaultyMario]

I’d agree it’s some sort of camp, but I just don’t think it really fits the definition of concentration camp.

What *you* think has nothing to do with the accepted definition of a concentration camp.

IIRC the first instance that fits the definition is the British internment of Boers. Then the Nazi first had Dachau and Sachsenhausen (for political prisoners) and when they annexed Poland they built Stutthof where they would send ethnic Poles (as opposed to Polish citizens of German ethnicity) before they were deported from the fatherland. At around the same time you had the Japanese-American internment camps in the California desert. And very recently you have those re-education camps for political and ethnic minorities in China.

The idea of a concentration camp is basically to otherize and separate equals based on ideological groupings.

The forced labor and extermination are the lengths those in power can go to, once the general populace is comfortable with the feeling of superiority and numb to the suffering brought on by separation.

[Crazed_Insanity]

If it is the generally accepted definition already, then why do you need to bother pointing out that AOC is right? Why do we even need AOC to tell us that?

Like those who disagree must be deplorably dumb, oh yeah, AOC is right! Those ARE concentration camps!!!! Thanks for opening our eyes!

There’s no excuse for family separation and mistreating them, but no other concentration camps that I know of that allowed the folks inside to leave voluntarily.
https://www.themarshallproject.org/2019/05/08/more-detained-immigrants-are-giving-up-court-fights-and-leaving-the-u-s

Btw, Swervo, at least the orangutan finally wised up and stopped family separation.

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/trump-reverses-on-family-separation-policy/

[FaultyMario]

Because people like you, who once needed to migrate, have fallen to complacency and think that the fascism devised by Miller and enforced by Trump is "probably the only thing happening against [their] will" or that "Politicizing this issue is really pointless".

Let's be clear on two things. One: these families are not "illegal migrants", under the 1951 convention and the 1967 protocol (which the U.S. cosigned) they fall under the status of Refugees. Two: these border and customs policies are already "politicized"; that's the nature of public policy; Public policy is a political solution to a public problem.

At their core there is an ideological goal, for example: "will ensure that all Americans have access to quality, affordable health care and will create the transformation within the health care system necessary to contain costs." The example assumes health care is not affordable and in need of transformation. As you can probably tell, not all people agree on those beliefs or stances; and as such it be necessary to grab some ideological discourse and repeat it until enough of those people's minds are changed.

What happens if we call the Stephen Miller concentration camps just that? It makes us take a look at how the dynamics of our society are being framed as problems, with a more critical eye. I mean, in light of all the evidence (shift in trend of migrant entrance to the U.S. from illegal border crossings to port-of-entries, shift in trends of country of origin, Trump using 'mexicans' as a slur for non-white latinoamerican migrants*), what problem needed such harsh policies? Most analysis point to an electoral problem: the need to energize a racist minority within the president's support base. Why the need for Ocasio to speak? Because we've fallen complacent and numb to abusive policy carried out by the state, against its legal obligations under numerous treaties and agreements.

[Tom Servo]

Btw, Swervo, at least the orangutan finally wised up and stopped family separation.

He only *said* he was stopping it.

https://www.bostonglobe.com/news/nation/2019/03/09/hundreds-migrant-children-are-taken-from-families-despite-rollback-separation-policy/qRgH3JRc8G7KEgzQz5aHfO/story.html
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2019/05/02/border-family-separations-trump-administration-border-patrol/3563990002/

[Crazed_Insanity]

Trust me, more than half of Americans are not complacent or numb about Trumps stupid policies. It’s just that our hands are tied, as Mueller’s.

Most Americans were not scared into locking up refugees... maybe we were scared during 9/11 thus Guantanamo or WWII thus Japanese camps, but this refugee camp is just not quite on the same level IMHO.

But let’s just say, for the sake of argument, it is the same level of evil, I’d rather AOC push forth new legislations that can prevent such camps in the future rather than just politicizing this. This is not the 1st time US has done it and this is , to me, not the most evil that we’ve ever done. No need to act SO surprised as if we’ve never seen it since nazi concentration camp. When it is really evil, sure they won’t even allow much media access at all.

What trump has done is certainly inhumane and evil and should make Christians wonder if he’s really a Christian at all. Clearly this is not something Jesus would do. Nevertheless I do believe you and AOC are a bit over the top.

[FaultyMario]

Yeah, well, I'll try again.

TL;DR Some internment facilities can be concentration camps, some concentration camps can be extermination camps. Internment facilities are not inherently evil. Concentration camps are an extremely harsh enforcement of the law. All laws are applied by policy. Policing one law can often come into conflict with other laws.

Laws should have reasonable margins for enforcement, because you can't make new laws for every new situation. When extreme enforcement is being used, it needs to be pointed out so that its application can be changed.

Ocasio is bringing attention to a conflictive application of force. It is her opinion that the executive needs to be held accountable for such harsh policies. That's the whole point of the 'checks and balances'.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Ok, to make it shorter, I’d fully agree with you that we need to hold admins accountable somehow and have laws in place that can prevent similar inhumane camps from springing up in the future.

However, I just don’t think it’s appropriate to equate what’s happening now to nazi concentration camp. Not only would trump base disagree with you, I’m sure holocaust survivors would too.

[FaultyMario]

Nazi concentration camps. Dachau 1933 can't equate to Sobidór.

[Tom Servo]

However, I just don’t think it’s appropriate to equate what’s happening now to nazi concentration camp.

I think AOC agrees with you, which is why she specifically left out the "nazi" part.

[Crazed_Insanity]

Possibly, but looking at Mario’s post, it’s hard for me to leave Nazi out.

[FaultyMario]

I hate to quote myself.


IIRC the first instance that fits the definition is the British internment of Boers. Then the Nazi first had Dachau and Sachsenhausen (for political prisoners) and when they annexed Poland they built Stutthof where they would send ethnic Poles (as opposed to Polish citizens of German ethnicity) before they were deported from the fatherland. At around the same time you had the Japanese-American internment camps in the California desert. And very recently you have those re-education camps for political and ethnic minorities in China.

The idea of a concentration camp is basically to otherize and separate equals based on ideological groupings.


The whole point of the Stephen Miller Detention Shelters is that those kids are, somehow, separate from your kids, and that unlike your kids they have some rights, but they are different rights.

That's where it begins, and if left unchecked it only escalates.

FFS, people were pardoned out of Dachau in Christmas of its first year!

[FaultyMario]

And just to drive home the point about Stephen "Himmler ain't got shit on me" Miller:

If you have it in your resume that you were the senior advisor to a religious zealot who makes claims more likely grounded on paranoid delusions (https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/michele-bachmanns-holy-war-244298/) and to a racist attorney who uses his power to drastically limit the ability of the federal authorities to review claims of abuse by local police departments (https://twitter.com/Josh_Moon/status/1060763451054850048), then you're probably either a delusional religious zealot or a racist, or something in that general vicinity.

[Crazed_Insanity]

To drive home my point... Americans in general are not complacent or numb or scared into doing this kind of evil in the migrant detention centers... totally unlike Japanese camps or camps in Guantanamo Bay. Those were truely unamerican evils done by the US government and the most of the population were scared enough to turn a blind eye on them. Trump wasn't even around back then.

If you want to paint Trump as a racist delusional zealot, well, I can't really argue with that. Very possible... considering most of the folks working for him are like that. However, Trump is very inconsistent with his actions though. For example, why would a racist give more money than Obama to the historically black schools? Why would he meet with black pastors? Those black school admins and black pastors are praising Trump more than Obama!!! What the heck? So perhaps the 'racist' part is questionable? It is possible that perhaps most "normal" political folks don't really want to work for Trump; therefore, we get those questionable extremists offering their services to a novice president.

I think there is still a glimmer of hope with this lousy president. At least so far he still hasn't led us into another stupid war... yet. He's also reversing family separation policy. So maybe he's not as bad as we fear, but still, I'd rather see him out of office come 2020. This should be another race for the dems to lose. Let's better hope the DNC candidates won't end up killing each other in a circular firing squad and allow Trump to reemerge as a victor again... fingers crossed.

[FaultyMario]

:rolleyes:

Michele Bachmann and Jeff Sessions, respectively.

[21Kid]

Read this somewhere and totally agree.

"I think we should call them TRUMP camps. That's the only thing that he cares about, his brand"

Plaster his name all over these things and see how he reacts.

[Tom Servo]

You know you fucked up when Highlights for Children is calling you out:

https://twitter.com/Highlights/status/1143572539358240774

[Tom Servo]

Tips For Staying Civil While Debating Child Prisons

Recent incidents of Trump officials being confronted in public for their role in the administration’s separation and imprisonment of immigrant families have driven renewed concern about the lack of civility in U.S. politics. The Onion presents tips for staying civil in a debate about child prisons.


Avoid unkind generalizations like equating the jailing of ethnic minorities with some malevolent form of fascism.

Consider that we all have different perspectives stemming from things like age, ethnicity, or level of racism.

Recall that violently rejecting a tyrannical government goes against everything our forefathers believed in.

Find common ground by recognizing that some kids are huge assholes.

Make sure any protests are peaceful, silent, and completely out of sight of anyone who could actually affect government policy.

Give your political opponents the benefit of the doubt by letting this play out for 20 years and seeing if it gets any better on its own.

Realize that every pressing social issue is solved through civil discourse if you ignore virtually all of human history.

Remind yourself that you’re just two people having a cocktail at the same D.C. party and that politics is a game to you.

Avoid painting with a broad brush. Not everyone in favor of zero-tolerance immigration wants to see children in cages—it’s more likely that they just don’t care.



https://www.theonion.com/tips-for-staying-civil-while-debating-child-prisons-1827147411

[Crazed_Insanity]

Is trump reversing family separation or is that just fake news and we’re still putting kids in concentration camps?

[Tom Servo]

Maybe you missed this. He didn't wise up, the courts said he had to stop, but he's still doing it when he thinks it's legally allowable.

Well, more accurately, Stephen Miller is.


He only *said* he was stopping it.

https://www.bostonglobe.com/news/nation/2019/03/09/hundreds-migrant-children-are-taken-from-families-despite-rollback-separation-policy/qRgH3JRc8G7KEgzQz5aHfO/story.html
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2019/05/02/border-family-separations-trump-administration-border-patrol/3563990002/

[Crazed_Insanity]

Okay, my bad. I guess I really have been complacent and not paying enough attention. I thought "new" family separation isn't happening anymore, but I guess I was foolish to believe Trump...

Anyway, the situation is screwed up though. Congress couldn't figure out what to do. Funding it to improve conditions give Trump tacit approval, but not funding it will make conditions even worse. Based on some of the news articles I found, there's no real consensus on whether this inhumane happening is by Trump admins design or it's just overwhelmed by the sheer # of folks overloading the system, right? Regardless of former or later, this border issue is kinda like a 'Trump war' I guess. Billions of tax dollars wasted for what?

[Tom Servo]

Well, part of the overwhelming numbers is from the "zero-tolerance" policy. We've had ways of dealing with people at the border that didn't require putting them in camps, but the new zero-tolerance policy has changed that. While the numbers of people coming to the border have increased in the past year, they're still around the lowest number in the past 48 years:

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/839F/production/_105659633_border-nc.png

And we weren't putting people in camps back in 2000. That said, one can argue that this is just due to being overwhelmed by the sheer number of people (though some reports of the treatment of children at the hands of specific officers couldn't be excused via that), one could also argue that this is a crisis of the administration's own making.

EDIT: Whoa, that graphic is way bigger than I expected. Sorry about that.

[FaultyMario]

Most Americans were not scared into locking up refugees... maybe we were scared during 9/11 thus Guantanamo or WWII thus Japanese camps, but this refugee camp is just not quite on the same level IMHO.

Satsuki Ina, who was born and spent the first two years of her life in a U.S. internment camp, disagrees with YHO. (https://www.democracynow.org/2019/6/26/japanese_americans_against_child_jails_at)

[Crazed_Insanity]

I like big graphs! (I'm near sighted)

Anyway, yeah, like I said earlier, this is probably just as disastrous as we fighting a costly/unjust war with lasting consequences...

I think AOC is in the camp in congress that doesn't want to increase funding to it (can't blame her on that), but short term solution has to be funding increase, right?

[Crazed_Insanity]

Satsuki Ina, who was born and spent the first two years of her life in a U.S. internment camp, disagrees with YHO. (https://www.democracynow.org/2019/6/26/japanese_americans_against_child_jails_at)

Anyway, I know I write too long sometimes and you don't usually read, but please read this one. I was complacent and didn't keep up with the latest news. I thought family separation wasn't really happening anymore... my mistake! Whether we call it concentration camp or not, there's really no good reason for for us to treat children like that. I'd like to think our guards are only trained to handle adults and just not trained to be child care workers, but who knows... it is fucked up. No argument there.

[FaultyMario]

No argument there.

:up:

[MR2 Fan]

This is scary...via twitter:

@LindseyGrahamSC

After tonight’s #DemocraticDebate.......that whole Trump 3rd term thing is looking better and better.

��


They aren't even hiding it...they WANT Trump to remain in power whether it's legal or not. That is going to cause a revolt like we've never seen before...probably even after the next election and Trump decides not to leave office.

[FaultyMario]

Sad that the only defense against Trumpism is in the judiciary, and the Trumpists have vowed to take over it.